Passion Struck with John R. Miles - How to Manage Energy Not Time: Dr. Diana Hill on Wise Effort | EP 758

Episode Date: April 23, 2026

What if the problem isn’t time management, but how you manage your energy?In this episode of Passion Struck, I sit down with psychologist Diana Hill to explore why energy management often matters more than time management—and how psychological flexibility can help you focus your effort on what truly matters.Drawing from her new book, Wise Effort: How to Focus Your Genius Energy on What Matters Most, Diana shares a transformative idea: Burnout often stems from directing your energy in ways misaligned with your values.We explore why high achievers often feel drained despite being productive, how “genius energy” can become either a strength or a liability, and how Acceptance and Commitment Therapy offers practical tools for shifting from urgency-driven striving to values-based action.We also dive into Diana’s powerful metaphors—from birds flying into windows to living from the back of the heart—and how small shifts in awareness can open entirely new ways of living.If you’ve ever felt exhausted while doing all the “right” things… this conversation will help you rethink effort itself.Passion Struck is the #1 alternative health and personal growth podcast dedicated to human flourishing and the science of mattering.Check the full show notes here: https://passionstruck.com/how-to-manage-energy-not-time-wise-effort/Explore companion insights for this episode at: https://www.theignitedlife.netThank You to Our SponsorsLimited Time Offer – Get Huel today with my exclusive offer of 15% OFF online with my code PASSION at huel.com/passion. New Customers Only. Thank you to Huel for partnering and supporting our show!Connect with JohnKeynotes, books, podcast, and resources: https://linktr.ee/John_R_MilesChildren’s Book — You Matter, Luma: https://youmatterluma.com/Pre-Order The Mattering Effect: https://matteringeffect.com/In This Episode, You Will Learn:Why managing energy often matters more than managing timeHow psychological flexibility helps prevent burnoutWhat Diana Hill means by Wise Effort—and how to practice itHow to identify when your strengths are becoming liabilitiesThe three-step method: Get Curious, Open Up, and RefocusHow “genius energy” can help you align effort with your deepest valuesWhy the path forward may require looking for a different open door—not flying harder at the same windowSupport the MovementLiving intentionally starts with directing your energy toward what matters.Explore tools, reflections, and frameworks to help you build an ignited life: https://www.theignitedlife.netDisclaimerThe Passion Struck podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. The views and opinions expressed by guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of Passion Struck or its affiliates. This podcast is not a substitute for professional medical or psychological advice.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Coming up next on Passion Struck. Some of these methods that we think we're just one size fits all, like mindfulness is good for everyone. It is not. Mindfulness is not beneficial for some people. Self compassion. For a subgroup of people, self compassion is not beneficial. I wrote a whole book on it. I'm like, this hurts.

But we actually really need to look at folks more at the individual level. And so a lot of those older studies were just like big averages with sample populations that were, as we know, like male white graduate, male. white college students. So that's not who I am. So I don't necessarily want to apply that to me. So yeah, science is changing for sure. Welcome to Passionstruck. I'm your host, John Miles. This is the show where we explore the art of human flourishing and what it truly means to live like it matters. Each week, I sit down with change makers, creators, scientists, and everyday heroes to decode the human experience and uncover the tools that help us lead with meaning,

heal what hurts and pursue the fullest expression of who we're capable of becoming. Whether you're designing your future, developing as a leader, or seeking deeper alignment in your life, this show is your invitation to grow with purpose and act with intention. Because the secret to a life of deep purpose, connection, and impact is choosing to live like you matter. Welcome back, friends, to episode 758 of Passion Struck. I am so glad you're here, whether this is your first episode or your first episode, or your I want to thank you for being part of this global community of people who are committed to

living intentionally, leading with purpose, and creating a world where every person feels like they matter. If this show has ever inspired you or helped you to take one meaningful step forward, the best way to support it is simple. First, share this episode with a friend or family member who will find it valuable. Second, leave a five-star rating or review on Apple or Spotify. It helps new listeners discover these powerful conversations. Throughout the month of April, we have been exploring our new series, Purpose by Design. We started with Arthur Brooks exploring the growing crisis of meaning. Then last week with Kayla Shaheen, we turned inward, understanding how to do the inner light work that shapes how we think, feel, and act. Earlier this week on Tuesday, I sat down with Nobel laureate,

Alvin Roth, and we zoomed out looking at how systems, incentives, and norms influence the choices we make every day. Today, we bring all these threads together, because whether it's your inner world or the systems around you, your life is shaped by one thing, where you direct your energy. And that's why I wanted to bring Dr. Diana Hill onto the show, because so many of us, especially high achievers, leaders and creators are exhausted because our effort isn't always aligned with wisdom. We're using our genius energy in ways that drain rather than direct us. Diana is one of the world's leading experts in acceptance and commitment therapy. Her new book, Wise Effort, How to Focus Your Genius Energy on What Matters Most,

combined science contemplative wisdom and her own powerful personal journey to help us understand how to use energy with intention. In this conversation, we'll unpack how your greatest strengths can also become your biggest traps, the three psychological forces that lure us in unwise effort. While opening up to your emotions is often the key to focus and how to use your energy in a way that feels deeply aligned with your purpose. If purpose is something you designed, then how you use your energy is one of your most important design choices.

Now, let's get into my conversation with Diana Hill. Thank you for choosing Passion Struck, and choose using me to be your hosting guide on your journey to creating an intentional life that matters. Now, let that journey begin. I am absolutely thrilled today to welcome Diana Hill to Passion Struck. Welcome, Diana. How are you today? Great. I'm happy to be here. I want to thank our mutual friend, Jordan Feingold, for introducing us.

I love Jordan and her work with Scott Berry Coffman on Choose Growth. So thank you, Jordan. How did you and Jordan come to know each other? Oh, I interviewed Jordan a number of, I think right when her book came out a couple years ago, and we just hit it off or Sympactico. I think that both being women that are interested in science, that are interested in psychology, this intersection between taking good science to people in practical ways. And I just really liked her as a human. And I also find that so many of my professional relationships come from now this sort of intersection of similar values. And then we've become friends and professionals at the same time, which is really rewarding. And we help each other out.

It definitely does. And I know you have a podcast as well. And I think that is one of the biggest blessings of doing this podcasting is interacting with people in that way and developing new business relationships and friendships. So I couldn't agree with you more. I'd love to start out my interviews with this question. We all have moments that define us. I know I've had so many in my life. what's a defining moment for you that shaped who you are today? I call them, I love the astronaut, I think it was Edgar Mitchell, that took that Apollo 14 trip. And then he was looking down at the earth. And I saw the earth in a whole new way.

And he described it as a noetic experience from the Greek word noisus, which means a new experience. You shift your perspective, right? And I've had many of these noetic experiences in my life, but probably the biggest one that comes to mind when you ask that question is when I was in graduate school, I went to University of Colorado at Boulder. I was in a clinical psychology program, which is really hard to get into. It's 1% of the population get into these programs. Worked hard to get there. I had recovered from an eating disorder.

I was running randomized controlled trials on bulimia, and I was sick. I was throwing up on the second floor while I'm running the trials on the first floor. And the wake-up call, I was driving home one day from the lab, and I looked in the rearview mirror and I saw these bags under my eyes, the salivary glands that were swollen. And when I looked in the mirror, I saw my own client, except for it was me. It was one of those, oh, my gosh, there is no difference here between me and the people that I'm serving. and it led me to actually withdraw from my graduate school. And I went to a yoga ashram.

I thought I was going to be a yoga teacher. But that lasted not very long. What I ended up doing is saying, I need to do this differently. I need to go back, but I need to go back in a more authentic way. And I need to start actually researching and applying what at that time was really new, which was a mindfulness-based, acceptance-based type of intervention. I went and studied with Deborah Safer at Stanford and came back and started. and started applying some of these newer acceptance and mindfulness-based models to eating disorders.

It was a full shift that I could be more of myself, take care of myself, while also serving other people. So that's probably one of the most impactful experiences, noetic experiences of my life. I have a few comments I wanted to make about that. Well, first, for sharing that and being vulnerable with your story, I do always think that we are best positioned to serve the person we once were. I love how you brought that up. It's how I got to do what I'm doing as well today. But when I was given the people I was supposed to help, I certainly didn't see myself in them at first because it's really painful.

But over time, realized exactly who I was supposed to help. Second thing is one of my best friends is a former astronaut. He was the chief astronaut. And Chris Cassidy and I remember him telling me this story where he was in the ISS looking down and he was sitting there looking at traffic or looking at New York City, imagining people in traffic and how upset they would be

and realizing in that moment that what we think of in the micro environments that we're in is so meaningless when you're looking at the vast universe around you and it changed his whole perspective that he is a citizen of Earth and he needs to do things

to make Earth a better place which has informed the rest of the rest of, of his life. And then lastly, I just have to say we took my son to look at the University of Colorado, and I'm not sure if that student center was there that has all their athletics in it. But, oh my word, is that a beautiful view? You're looking out from the basketball courts and all in the background is mountains. It's absolutely gorgeous. Yeah. Well, I actually, when I chose to go to University of Colorado, I was actually deciding between there and Yale. And I went to Yale and it was like all these tall buildings. I went during winter. It was cold and austere. And I, even at that time,

I knew that wouldn't be a good place for me. But you can even be in the mountains and still struggle, right? So sometimes it's the needing the big picture outer experience of looking down at the earth or looking at the traffic and having that shift. And sometimes it's the inner experience of looking at your inner world and getting honest with yourself. And that's what that experience offered to me. Dr. Keltner, he has all the work in awe. And as you were talking about your friend who's an astronaut, there was this one study where he had people go outside and look up at a eucalyptus tree for one minute versus look at a building for one minute. And those who looked up at the eucalyptus tree and then a researcher came by and accidentally spilled their pens, they were more likely to help

the researcher pick up the pens. Right. So there is something about connecting to that vastness, to that, that what I call wiser self with a capital S self that can really help shift our behavior in almost effortless ways. And we're just moved to live differently and behave differently. And I'm really interested in that for my clients as well as myself and my family. I'm so glad you brought up Dacker. I have not mentioned his name in a while. I love Dacker's work. And I remember we were having this conversation about awe. And he kind of terms that the times we see it the most are when we experience moral beauty. And one thing that he told me really still sticks with me. And he was doing work at the time at Sam Quentin. And he was telling me that at a place where you would think you would experience the least amount of awe, some of these inmates experienced it more

than others because he was dealing with a lot of people who were on death row. And when they had the opportunity to even get a small bit of time outside, they appreciated the moral beauty that they were experiencing so much more because it was such a limited thing for them. But also, he saw how much so many of them felt forgiveness for what they had done. So I'm glad you brought him up because I love his work. I think sometimes when we expand our time or we contract our time can have a big impact on our perception of our experience. So if you actually contract your time, sometimes I'll do this exercise. That's actually a great journaling exercise that your listeners could do. I do it when I train therapists and I have them write down. The classic, a year to live. If you had a year to live, what would you do with your

year. But then I take it a little further where I say, if you have a year to live, okay, no, wait, no, you have a month to live. What would you do with your month? Now you only have a day to live. What would you do with your day? How would you wake up? What would you eat for breakfast? Who would you want to see? How would you want to dress, right? Who would you want to call? What places would you want to visit? And then I say, okay, now, wait a minute. You don't have a day anymore. You just have a minute to live. What would you do with your minute? And then at the end of the exercise, I encourage people to go out and do that minute. And it's interesting what people say. They'll be like, I'd call this person. I would just put my hands on my heart and I'd breathe.

Or in that minute, I would just say thank you. And it tells you a lot about what your values are when you start to contract time like that. You can also expand time. Like we had all the time in the world today. What would you want to do with your day? Because we also know there's this paradox where when people feel like they have less time, they end up doing less meaningful things. There's this sort of paradoxical cognitive distortion that happens where we start to do things that feel, quote, important. But we do those, it's called the urgency effect. We do things that feel urgent, but we don't really do the things that are most important and meaningful to us when we feel like we don't have enough time. So those are fun exercises just to play with and an acceptance of commitment

therapy. I do a lot of that kind of mind shifting stuff so you can get more to the heart of it. Like what is it that's truly important to you? How do you want to use your time and how could you take a different view on things and maybe your automatic view of seeing yourself in your life? That really made me think of a few things. One is that our perception is something that we don't think about enough. And oftentimes we look at it as either or so black or white. And we don't lean into enough of both and type of thinking is something that registered when you were saying that. And I think another thing that really keyed me in on what you were saying is a number of years ago, I had a life or death type of situation. And I'm going to tie this into your new book,

which, and that was I was whitewater rafting. I was on the front of the, the raft and we hit this a really hard rapid and I got thrown from the raft that we were on and got trapped underneath the raft. And when I was down there, I was originally in this panic mode until I really started focusing on my breathing and what I needed to do to get out of the situation. And in your new book, Wise Effort, subtitled how to focus your genius energy on what matters most. Your foreword has an eerily similar situation with the mutual friend of ours, Rick Hanson, who also, a little bit younger than me, had a similar deaf-defying moment. But I think that moment really sets up the core essence of your book. And I was hoping you might be able to talk about

Rick that story and maybe introduce the book with it. In the foreword, Rick talks about getting entangled in a kelp bed and the struggle against the kelp and his entanglement that almost leads him to drown, which is very similar to you. And these are physical experiences, right? But we could also apply that to psychological experiences. We feel entangled in a fight with somebody, a strange from a family member or someone at work that's really difficult to be with. We get entangled in our addictions. We get entangled in our depression and our negative. self-critic. We get entangled in procrastination. Just name your poison, right? Whatever thing you are entangled in. And the way in which we try and get out, there's three unwise efforts that we can engage

in that could lead us to drown that could make things worse, right? So if you can imagine this, you're entangled in kelp or you're under a kayak or whatever, or you're in a marriage that is like not working so well. The first unwise effort is we get stuck in a story. So our mind, is often not helpful in these situations. Our mind says things like, oh, no, I'm going to drown. I'm never going to get out of this. Or if it's a go back to the difficult marriage, it's their fault. They'll never change or I'm right, all the things that our mind says, or this is going to destroy us. We just go to this storymaking mind that often makes things worse. So that's the first thing. The second thing that could cause you to drown in your marriage or your work problem or your procrastination or the kelp is that we avoid

discomfort. And the way, I have two surfer sons. And my son, that's a surfer, he talks about when he gets tangled by a wave, what you actually need to do is you need to just like completely let go and go down and let the water pull you back up to the top. And what we end up doing is we avoid discomfort by thrashing about. I don't want to feel this. I don't want to think this. And that can cause a lot of secondary problems. And then the third way that we can drown ourselves is by holding on too tight, trying too hard, not, again, not letting go. And so that's all the practice of unwise effort, but wise effort is the practice of letting go of the story and letting in a wiser self, which could be the bigger, vast, expansive self of the ocean, the practice of knowing what

your values are and pointing your energy there and really opening up to the process. And that will free you. It won't drown you. So that's the wise versus unwise effort metaphor, I guess, with the kelp. Well, I love the simplicity of the name because the wise ties into wisdom and effort to me ties into energy and how we use our energy. So wisdom and energy combined, really cool underlying aspect to the book. Well, I moved to Tampa from Austin, Texas. And when I lived in Austin, we had this really incredible view behind our house.

and so we decided to put in this huge picture window so that it was the main thing that we looked at from the kitchen. And it had an unfortunate side effect to it, and that is birds would see it and think that they could fly through it. And so we suddenly had birds hitting this window, unfortunately, but they wouldn't hit it just once. They kept repeating that. And I bring this up because in your introduction of the book, you tell a similar story of how you live on the coast, on the west coast, and you leave your door open. Sometimes birds get stuck in your house, and maybe I'll let you take it from there. Yes, what is it about a beautiful big kitchen window? I wish that for everyone. It's just great to have. And then the birds. So I use that as a metaphor.

And I just want to say something about metaphors, because as an act therapist is actually an intervention and a technique that's very useful. Because when you use a method, metaphor. You can talk about something in a way that gives you just a little bit of cognitive distance from it, but they can see it from a different view and can communicate something that's universal. It's using language to get around language is what we say in act. And the metaphor is you leave your door open, the bird comes in. And birds do what would evolutionarily designed to do, which is go fly up and out if you're stuck. And that's what we humans do too. It's like, if you're stuck in a problem, go at it. Go solve the problem. Go figure it out. Right. But what if that

problem is an example of doing homework with my teenage son? And I'm trying to figure it out and trying to like get him to work harder. And it's just making things worse. The harder that I try, the more he shuts down. What's going on there? So one option is to just keep flying harder at the problem. And that will lead you to hit your head, especially if the problems that aren't really easily solvable. They're ones of the inner worlds, right? Or relational issues. And then the next thing, I edit this. And there's this whole part of this, which is like the sunk cost fallacy, which is another cognitive error, which is we think that we put so much energy into this, that we just need to keep going at it. We've put money into it. We've put time into it.

We've put like all of our resources into it. So we just should just keep going at it. And sometimes that is the worst thing to do, right? Because it's destroying you. But then the next thing that we do is maybe this bird gets so sick of hitting its head that just sits on the kitchen floor and gives up. And that's Saligman's learned helplessness model of just, I have no power to change any of this. And those two options are often ones that I see my clients bouncing back and forth from. Either I need to try harder at it or I need to give up on it. And wise effort is something revolutionarily different than all of that. It is, hey, have you ever turned a little to the right or maybe looked behind you?

180 or a little to your left. And is there another door that's open that you haven't tried? And you do not have to give up flying. It's one of my pet peeves is for people to say, just don't care so much or just don't work so hard. I'm like, I am a super high achiever. Look, I'm a super high achiever. Not only is that high achieving destructive to me, that high achieving is beneficial to me. But I need to figure out how to channel it in a different way. And so whatever you are flying at, I don't want you to give up who you are, but we need a little bit of variation. You need a little bit of cognitive flexibility to see if there's some other open doors, little bird, and you're going to need to fly.

You're going to put some effort into it. But maybe it will feel less effortful when you're not hitting your head against the wall or against the window. So that's the metaphor of the bird caught in the kitchen. And I think most people have some kind of window they're flying at in their life they can think of right now that they're flying harder at or they've given up on. And I would just encourage you to maybe get curious about that. pattern and then open up and then refocus your energy, which are the three steps of wise

effort that I lay out in the book. Before we continue, a quick note, if today's conversation is making you reflect on where your energy is going, I want to invite you to go deeper. At the ignitedlife.net, I'm sharing reflections, tools, and frameworks to help you not just understand these ideas, but actually apply them. Because insight alone doesn't change your life. Applied insight does. If you want to start aligning your energy with what truly matters, you can explore more at the

IgnitedLife.net. Now, the quick break for our sponsors. Thank you for supporting those who support the show. You're listening to Passion Struck right here on the Passion Struck network. Now, back to my conversation with Diana Hill. Well, I'm going to just do an offshoot from some cost fallacy. I just interviewed Alex Emis and he and Richard Thaler, the Nobel Laureate, just rewrote Richard's famous book from 30 years ago.

And on this whole sunk cost fallacy, they review 30 years later, is the science still correct? So if you want to learn the answer to that, then tune into that episode with Alex because he goes through it in detail. And they have a new term for it now. They're not calling it the sunk. I use sunk cause fallacy because that's the common one that we all use. But I actually just did an Instagram post on this the other day because I was so interested in this concept. I am curious what they had to say about it. But the new term that they're using now is escalation of commitment.

So that tendency to persist in an endeavor once resources, time, money, identity, emotion have been invested even when evidence show it's failing. And I am curious how much of that. Many of these studies, they redo them again and they're like, usually the answer is sort of. Like part of it rings true, but this other part didn't like the marshmallow study that when my kids were little, I did all of those developmental studies on them because I was like, okay, you're two now. We're going to do this one. You're four now. We're going to do the

marshmallow study where you put the marshmallow in front of the kid and see if they eat it. And that a number of years later, they found is that if your kid doesn't eat the marshmallow, it doesn't necessarily mean they're going to get higher SAT scores is what the 60s and 70s research showed. But some of it still rings a little bit true. So usually that's how these studies turn out that we get a little better with our measurements and most of the time we're using more diverse samples than what we used three decades ago. And our statistics are a little bit more sophisticated. Well, that's at the heart of it.

When Thaler originally wrote that book, almost everything was done in the lab or the classroom. And now with the evolution of mega studies, especially what Katie Milkman and Angela Duckworth are doing with their behavior change for good initiative, it sure is expanding the validity or non-validity of many of these theories and biases that came about before. I've been really closely involved with Steve Hayes working with him behind the scenes

on a lot of the process-based therapy work. And we're doing both mega studies, but we're also going back to individual studies. What we're really interested in is what's called ideographic measurement, which is the individual at the individual level. All this normative data, these bell curves, does not map on to the individual. And if you actually look at individual data points, it looks more like a scatter plot than it does a bell curve because we're just looking at averages in those bell curves. So the newer types of clinical therapy approaches that have to do with process-based

interventions are looking at the big mega models, but then also the very individual models. This person, this client in my room, what is happening for them at the process level, what's happening for them in their relationship to their thoughts and their relationship to their emotions. And some of these methods that we think we're just one size fits all, like mindfulness is good for everyone. It is not. Mindfulness is not beneficial for some people. Self-compassion. For a subgroup of people, self-compassion is not beneficial. I wrote a whole book on it. I'm like, this hurts. But we actually really need to look at folks more at the individual level. And so a lot of those older studies were just like big averages with sample populations that were,

as we know, like male white graduate male white college students. So that's not who I am. So I don't necessarily want to apply that to me. So yeah, science is changing for sure. So in the book, Diana, you describe genius as our unique life force, something that everyone has, not just the gifted few, but for so many of us, we lose that energy due to distraction or other noise of life that we experience or burnout. out, what do you recommend to listeners to help them rediscover that energy? First, folks might just have a reaction to the word genius, so I have to debunk this now. I'm not talking about your score on the Stanford-Bennay intelligence test.

I just use that term to highlight a collection of strengths that make you and going back to you as an individual. You know, my grandmother was an incredible painter. I had one of her paintings here in my space. And she taught me how to paint at a really young age. And I remember her taking me out into the garden and picking a strawberry and putting a strawberry on the plate. And the number of squeezes of paints that she put on that palette, she put catamined red, and then she put burnt sienna, which is this like orangey color. And then she'd even put like a dark ultramarine blue. And she'd say, look at that strawberry.

And can you see what colors are in there? So if you look at yourself, you're like a strawberry. Your unique combination of colors is uniquely, you. And then I see those when I see a client in my office, that's what I'm deeply curious about. What are their strengths? And the way that I go about it in the book is to look at these five different categories of, quote, genius energy that make you up. And they're all based on science.

They're all based on positive psychology and have a lineage of science to them. So one is your interests. When you are in flow, when things, you just lose track of time, it's usually because you're engaging in something that is really interesting. to you, whatever that is. For me, painting strawberries, I could do that for hours, right? So what are your interests? What are your character strengths? We know from some of the work around 24 character strengths, Selgman's character strengths, that those are really important in terms of your work success, but your life satisfaction success when you're expressing those. What is your, what are your

unique abilities and talents? What comes easily to you? What is your personality pattern? And also what is your emotional intelligence? So those together are like the colors of your strawberry. And when you engage them, you will feel more energized in your life. You can spot it in other people. So you can think about a good friend, what your good friend's genius is. You can think about the eucalyptus tree or the oak tree. They have different geniuses to them. Very different, right? And what I have found in my work with claims is that oftentimes we go straight to the solving of the but we don't see the strengths that are there. And we know I do a lot of work with leaders, YPO groups. We need to encourage our leaders to see the strengths in their teams because if you

highlight and focus on strengths, you're going to be three, I think it's, no, six times more engaged at work, eight percent more productive at work, and you are going to be less likely to quit your job. So even just in the workplace. So that's your genius energy. But what can happen is that But you can over index on your strengths, and those very strengths can become your problem as well. So that's where wisdom comes in. You need to know your strengths, and then you need to be wise enough to know how and when to use them like a dial. If I have a lot of ambition, Diana Hill, I'm very ambitious.

I have a lot of persistence. That can take me down to 72 pounds anorexia, or that can get me back into graduate school and say, I'm going to do this thing differently, and I'm going to do it my way, and I'm going to do it in a more effective way. So we need wisdom to help us guide us with our strengths. Diana, thank you for answering that. And what you just described in your five aspects for personality, talents, interests, character, strengths,

and emotional intelligence. Out of those five, which one do you see most people out of touch with the most? It depends. It's a blanket statement. It also depends on development where they are. So an interesting one, interesting, is I actually think that a lot of folks have lost

touch with their interests. Because a lot of their interest may be things that are not valued or put up on a pedestal. Maybe they had a strong interest in music as a kid and they got channeled into an academic path. Or maybe they had an interest in cooking and they were told that's just, that's not going to be worth anything to you in life. Right. And what I find is that when you can engage your interest and you can actually bring your interest into your relationships and into your work,

it can open up a lot of creativity and creative doors. For example, I, as you can tell, I dropped out of graduate school. I went to a yoga ashram. I have a strong interest in the body and in movement and in being embodied as part of my recovery. And I didn't really think that fit in the world of psychology. We're in our heads, right? And what I over time have done, I'm about to go leave for a training. I train therapists.

Sometimes I'll be in a room of 350 therapists. And we're all sitting around tables, you know, those round tables of those round tables of a high at room with no windows and fluorescent lighting and we're sitting there in our heads, knee-to-knee-to-kraising therapy. I'll get everyone up and out to the edge of the room and have them do a sun salutation. And that is my interest coming into play, but it also becomes a way for us to start thinking and talking about embodiment in the therapy room. How can we make a, do you go for walks with your clients or for people that are listening?

do you go for walking meetings if you care about the body. So going back to getting interested in what interests you and how can you bring your interest to life in your life can help with things like bore out and burnout. I also think emotional intelligence is another one, but that's when we talk about a lot. So interest is a little bit fresher. Thank you for sharing that. And in the book, you write that every field, whether it's physics, biology, neuroscience, ultimately studies energy. and you frame energy as something that we can regenerate, not just conserve. How does your research in acceptance and commitment therapy support that idea? Acceptance and commitment therapy is about psychological flexibility.

And the relationship between psychological flexibility and energy is that if you are more psychologically flexible, you are less likely to get burned out on things because you can move with the energy of life. If we think about life is in constant change, in constant flow, and you can resist that, or you can be flexible and move with it and channel your energy within it. There's a lot of efforting in resistance. And energy is real. There's this blue aspect to energy, you know, the chakras and the pradas and chi, which I'm all down for.

I'm like, that's all. I can experience that in my spiritual world or the energy of prayer, right? the energy that happens when you're in a church, the energy that happens when, you know, you're with a group of people. But when they actually start to measure it, you can see that there is energetic exchange that happens even between people, someone like polyvagal theory, where the energy of somebody's physical body, the shutdown, the little muscles around their eyes are sending signals to you. Your body is picking up on other people's energy all the time.

So with psychological flexibility, what we're starting to do with act is to help people, I guess, in some ways, reclaim their energy rather than having it be all entangled in their thoughts or in fighting their emotions or in this narrow sense of self, how can you open up and allow your energy to flow towards your values, which then is very rejuvenating. Anyone can think about this. You can think about an hour where you want to be. went in, you were out of alignment with your values, you left depleted, an hour where you worked hard and you were in line with your values and you left re-energized, even if you were working hard in both

of those hours. So it's not just a one-way thing. Energy can definitely flow back to you when you engage in compassionate and meaningful ways. I'm going to come back to two things we talked about at the beginning of the episode. One is Jordan Fine Gold, and the other is metaphors. So in the book, you use a Zen metaphor about the five cups, empty, full, crack, dirty, and overflowing. And I wanted to ask, how does that image help us, as Jordan would say, choose growth with more humility and less judgment? Well, the five cups metaphor, it's actually a co-on. And co-ons are little sayings that help you shake up your mind a little bit. They leave you a little bit questioning yourself, which in general is the best thing you can do. Question yourself, right?

And the co-on goes like this, where there was a Zen student who went to a Zen master, and we've all heard of the empty cup one. Many of us heard of the empty cup one were, but what the Zen master said to the student is, take a look at your cup. Is your cup so full, and your cup is a metaphor for the mind? So think about a problem that you're in or a struggle you're in. Is your cup so full that you're not letting in new information. You think you already know. You're so full of yourself, right? We've all read the million self-help books. We actually are not entering into the experience allowing anything in. So is your cup so full in that conversation with your mother or your partner or your kid? The second cup is your cup dirty. You're not seeing clearly. We know this about our minds.

Our minds are constantly filtering out information. There's another one with a confirmation, bias, we're filtering out things don't confirm our existing views. It's dirty. It's not letting us really see. Is the cup turned over? You're just closed off to it. You're like, uh-uh, I don't, I'm not letting any of that in, right? And then one that many of us experience these days is does your cup have holes? You're distracted. You're on your phone. You're thinking about something else. You have not trained your mind to be present and contain what is here, to plug up those holes. So the fifth cup is turn it over and wipe it out, empty it, and then allow something new. This is the bird in the kitchen. Could you look around and see

that there may be something different, a different way of doing things? The foundation of evolution is really variation. So you got to turn it over, open up, and be open to something new, a possibility that you haven't seen before in order to flourish in the way or choose growth in the way that Jordan talks about. And there's practices to do. do that. There's contemplative practices, there's psychological practices to work on opening your mind, turning it over and emptying up that cup. And I wanted to follow that up with you've worked with parents, leaders, high achievers, many who feel constantly drained. What do you think is common as you look at all the people you work with in the way that they misuse their energy? Is there one

common thing? Is it multiple common things? I think it goes back to those three things, being stuck in a story, avoiding discomfort, and holding on too tight. I recently worked on a paper with Joe Sorocchi on this concept of experiential attachment, which Joe Sorocchi and Steve Hayes and Sandra Ballinger, a number of people from just really around the world, are working on this paper on experiential attachment that we just submitted. And the idea behind that is not only do we run away from discomfort, we, chase things and we don't let go of the chase. So that I see is a real problem for a lot of people because often we're chasing things that either aren't aligned with our values or the way in which we are chasing is harming ourselves. So if you think about, I'll go back to my teenagers because

it's just like I got these boys, the teenage boys. I have this 16 year old. The other day I walked into his room and the sports equipment drawer was open. Every drawer. was open, but the sports equipment drawer was open. And in the sports equipment drawer was a bowl that still had milk in it from his cereal, right? And I walk in the room and he's getting ready to go on this backpacking trip. And everything in my being just wants to yell at the kid. Clean up your, the yelling, the nagging. That's just like my automatic, like chase, chase the thing that you want. I want the room to be clean. I want him to be organized, right? The cost to me, of that is big because he's about to go on a backpacking trip. And if I chase that and he goes away,

I will experience regret. I'll be at home, be like, oh, like I missed the opportunity for connection and relationship. I chose clean order. I was chasing that. I was experientially attached to that rather than pursuing my values. And you could insert teenage behavior there, but anyone listening could insert any of their other things in which they are chasing. They're chasing money. They're chasing the career goals. We see this a lot with because I'm on a lot of podcasts, I'm a lot of interviews. People are chasing numbers.

They're chasing numbers. And at the cost of their life, at the cost of actually living and experiencing the life that they are talking about, like these people that we look up to that now I talk to that aren't, they're not living the dream. They are not living it. just talking about it, right? Because they're chasing some thing out there that they think they're going to get to that's going to make them happy. And what I really encourage to talk about those five cups is empty your cup and take a look. And what do you actually want to fill this cup with? So in that

example with my son and the relationship, it was a choice point for me to stop and say, what really matters here? The cereal bowl in the drawer or connecting with my son? And how am I going to feel a week from now? if I focus on the cereal bowl, how am I going to feel away from now if I focus on my son? And that is the way we can turn our energy around with our values and maybe not feel so off in our lives. I think what you were just talking about is a great segue to where I wanted to go next, which is doing a little bit of a deep dive on understanding what fuels you versus what fools you. And you outlined six universal yearnings. and we're just talking about a few of these.

Connection, purpose, confidence, meaning orientation, and feeling deeply. Out of those, which one do you think is missing the most for so many of us today? I want to give credit to those yearnings first come from Steve Hayes and Joe Sorocchi, and they have an evolutionary base to them. We all yearn for connection because we need to survive by connecting each other. We yearn for purpose. Purpose also, we yearn to a sense of mastery. to get better at things, right? We yearn for, to make sense of things. And we earn to feel deeply

was an interesting one too. We actually want to feel the full range of emotions. And I think that for a lot of us, just the data on loneliness, I hate to even bring it up because we talk about it so much, but it's so true and real, is we, the yearning for connection. So I run a Sanga, which is just like a community of people that meditate together. It has no spiritual orientation. There's Christians there. there's Buddhists there. There's non-denomination people there. We meet and we meditate. And this sanga is just like busting at the seams. It's in person. People come on a Tuesday morning. They get a coffee and we sit in a circle and we meditate. Then I guide them in a guided meditation. And we yearn for that in the way that people will go to a 12-step meeting and

yearn to be in a circle with other people that are just real and human. And so much of our, I think, our experience now feels disconnected. We have, especially with the divisions in our United States, for people who are listening to the United States, we feel really divided with other people. We don't feel seen. We feel very alone in our struggles. And there is, for me, there is nothing better than connection. I build a career around it. Connecting with another human. I don't care if you're my UPS driver or if you're my client or you're my student's teacher, if I feel genuinely connected to you, that is a source of energy that will carry me through the day or through anything that is hard. And then when hardship strikes, when you get cancer, when you go through a

divorce, when your house needs a remodel, you don't have enough money to pay for it, human connection is the secret sauce, not necessarily to solve those problems, but to support you in that. So I think that's probably at the top yearning that people have. I couldn't agree with you more. It's why I've been doing so much work over the past years on mattering and the belonging deficit that I think is so rampant today in society. So thank you for sharing that. And I also think it's a good opportunity to bring up Rick Hansen again because I know

one of the things that he is really working on similar to the circle that you described is compassion circles and just trying to get people to sit around, especially in the polarizing world that we live in and to see how compassion is such a strength for us to use and not to avoid. So just to give them another plug. There's a practice that I write about in Y's effort that I often use with leaders, what I work with leaders called Just Like Me. And that's when I'm training leaders how to see each other, but also how to see their teams. In the practice, in the very formal practice of it, I learned this from on a retreat with Jack Cornfield.

In the very formal practice of it is you sit across the way from another person. And I'm going to do this with you, John, as we're talking. So you sit across the way from another person and you look at them. And you realize as you look at them that just like me, this person was a child once. And just like me, this person had a best friend. and just like me, this person has had heartbreaks. And just like me, this person has things that keep them up at night. And just like me, this person struggles with themselves sometimes to make the right choice.

And just like me, this person has hopes for themselves. And when you start to see a person in that way, then the things that make us different, We all have things that we're very different people, very different lives. But we have a lot that's similar. And when we can see that common humanity, it can shift us towards a more compassionate view, whether it's you're working with your teams or you're with the Trader Joe's person and getting your groceries, you're in the car. And someone's just like me, the person in front of me sometimes gets distracted and drives

crappily. Just like me. You know what? I am not holier than now. I do that too. So why am I so frustrated at them? Right? And so we just have a little bit more compassion for each other, which I think we'd all benefit

from right now. What you were just describing really brings me back to Charles Duhigg's most recent work in his book's super communicators, but even more so to Alison Woodbrook's research and her latest book. And she describes it as when we're talking to someone, what we're really doing is looking at a mirror of ourselves. And what going back to your whole thing on connection, so many of us aren't connecting and investing in the ways that we used to with others. And when we don't do that, we start losing that connection that we see with other people because we get in such

superficial types of conversations instead of really the deep listening that I think drove connection for millennia that seems to be disappearing more and more from our lives. But just like You said when you see yourself in that mirror, you see all those different stages in another person that yourself feel as well. So I think what you just said was really beautiful. Sort of like our handwriting, right? Have you noticed that your handwriting has gone to pot? Like we're just like, none of us can really write well anymore? I used to have great handwriting. Why can't I? Why don't I have handwriting that's great anymore? Because I'm not using my handwriting. And so it's just a practice. Can you just do some simple things that will support your connection?

The first most simple thing is to put your phone off and away into a place where it is not in your view. When I'm driving my son, that same 16 year old to school, get my phone out of here so I can connect it to him. And also, I'm a better driver, all of that. But also, can we meet, can we just choose to meet in person, even if it's easier to meet by phone or by video? Can we choose to not Instacart everything, even though it's faster to Instacart? I actually had a client who said that her nutritionist told her to stop Instacarting so much because she was just ordering the same foods, even though they were healthy foods. She was ordering the same foods and she was losing the diversity in her diet from eating

broccoli every week because you need to have 30 different types of fruits and vegetables in your week, right? So the same is true for us. We need a variety of interactions with people. Maybe the people that you are interacting with at the grocery store or the farmer's market, are people that would be beneficial, those weak ties that be beneficial for you. So a lot of the things that are that we've just gotten in the habit of, we need to maybe be a little bit more uncomfortable in our life.

They take a little bit more time, but isn't that the meaning of life? If you really do believe the meaning of life is connection and not getting to some end point that you never get to that's in front of you, then do those things. It is chopwood carry water. That's what life is about. I've recently interviewed Claude Silver, who's the chief heart officer of Vayner Media. And I love that idea of heart and leadership. And you describe living from the back of the heart while taking action from the front.

And I was hoping you could just describe what that practice looks like. It's actually a meditation practice that I learned from Trudy Goodman, who's one of my mentors and teachers and good friends. And the practice is if you can imagine your heart and at the front of your heart, is like the agitations, the irritations, the sadness, the joys, the excitement. When you're all entangled up in that, sometimes you can act impulsively, you can feel a little bit jostled by life, or you also maybe avoid things because they feel really intense. Living at the back of the heart is taking two steps back, almost like leaning back to the back of the heart. And you can see all of that happening at the front, but what you're acting from is from a stable, centered core that is your

wises self. It's not that you're getting rid of anything at the front of the heart. You may even appreciate some of the stuff at the front of your heart. But from the back of the heart, you are much more solid, connected, and free. And that's a meditation practice, but it's also just an action practice. Like when I go out, go through my day, I can tell. Am I at the front of my heart here? Or can I lean back a little bit and be, hey, what would be at the back of my heart? Sometimes there's this line that I'll use sometimes with some of the executives that I work with, which is called wait. Why am I talking? And then there's the follow up, waste. Why am I still talking? I could use that for myself, right? So sometimes living at the back of the heart is just taking two

steps back and being quiet for a minute, pausing, finding your center, feeling your feet on the ground, connecting with your wise self, looking up at that eucalyptus tree for one minute, right? And then acting from there, even with everything that's happening at the front of your heart. I love that. And Diana, how has writing wise effort changed how you parent create and lead? Going through the process of the book, I took many clients through it and with me along the way. and it was really beautiful to see that I was going through the process of getting curious, opening up and focusing my energy while I was writing the book. How do you engage in wise effort while you're writing about wise effort, right?

And then seeing my clients be transformed by this method as we were working together through it. It's all stuff that I've been practicing for decades or maybe 15 years, right, since that moment in graduate school when I had a noetic experience of I am you and you are me. but the way that this book has transformed how I work and lead is it's really been more of a focusing of my energy that this is what I want my life to be about. I want my life to be about helping people discover their genius energy, harness it and use it in ways that are regenerative, not only for the benefit of them, but really for the benefit of our greater good. Because if we're all engaging in wiser effort, if we're all using our gifts and we're all giving them in a way that's aligned with

our values, then the world would be such a better place. And that is my purpose and my mission. And this book is one avenue to support that purpose and mission. I love that. And finally, what does it mean for you, Diana, to live a passion struck life? This is living a passion struck life. It's following the waves of energy that come at me. It's making choices that bring vitality to myself and my community and letting go of stuff that maybe on the surface looks good, but that is draining the heck out of me and encouraging other people to do that as well. So that being driven by passion,

being driven by values, being driven by love with a big capital, L-O-V-E, is a passion-struck life for me. Awesome. Thank you for sharing that. And for the listeners who want to learn more about you, we're the best places for them to go. You can go to wise effort.com.

I write on Psychology Today. I have a podcast, Wise Effort. But it's all at wise effort.com. It's best place to find me there and on Instagram at Dr. Diana Hill. Diana, thank you so much for joining us today on Passion Struck. It was such an honor to have you. Thank you. It's delight to be with you.

That brings us to the end of today's conversation with Diana Hill. What's stead out most to me is this. So many of us believe the answer to a better life is simply to try harder, to push more, to do more, to optimize more. But what Diana shows us is something very different. Sometimes the problem isn't effort. It's how we're applying it. Because when our energy is misaligned with our values, even success can feel exhausting. But when our energy is aligned, even hard things can feel meaningful. And maybe that's the deeper shift. Not asking how do I do more, but asking where is my energy actually meant to go. Because your greatest strengths, your ambition, your persistence, your drive can either fuel your life or quietly drain it. Depending on how you use them. And the invitation in this episode, is simple, to stop flying harder into the same window and to start looking for a different way forward. And that insight leads directly into our next conversation. Because if today's

episode is about how we direct our energy, next we'll explore something just as essential. How we connect. I'm joined by University of Chicago psychologist Nicholas Epley, and at the core of his work is a powerful paradox. We are a deeply social species wired for connection. And yet every single day, we choose to be less social than we could be. We avoid talking to the stranger next to us. We stay in small talk instead of going deeper, and we hold appreciation we feel. And in doing so, we miss out on one of the most powerful forces for a happier and healthier life. And bridging that gap between people is often far easier than we think if we're willing to take the first step. You won't want to miss it. We tend to think about ourselves in terms of our competency. So you're thinking

about starting a conversation, you think, well, what are we going to talk about? Do I have anything in common this person? Can I carry it on? You're an agent. You're thinking about your competency. Okay. Other people, they care about your competency, but not first and foremost. What they first and foremost care about is, how nice are you? That's the basic, how warm you? Are you friendly? Are you trustworthy? Are you a friend I can interact with or are you a foe, somebody that should avoid? So we're evaluating ourselves through this lens of competency. Other people are evaluating us through this lens of warmth. When you reach out to engage with somebody positively,

those are inherently warm acts. Those are going to be high on that spectrum, on the warmth spectrum. People are going to react to that generally pretty positively. If this episode resonated with you, share it with someone who might be feeling burned out or misaligned. Leave a five-star rating review on Apple Podcast or Spotify, explore more tools and insights at the ignitedlife.net.

And pre-order my upcoming book, The Mattering Effect. It's available everywhere books are sold. Until next time. remember, purpose isn't just about what you choose. It's about how you direct your energy towards it. I'm John Miles, and you've been passion-struck. Until next time, lead with energy, act with wisdom, and as always, live life, passion-struck.