Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Ivo Brughmans on How to Navigate the Paradoxes of Leadership EP 358

Starting point is 00:00:00 coming up next on PassionStrock. People might think, oh paradox, a leadership that is very difficult because we always need to find the perfect balance in the middle. Know that it's absolutely not true. In fact, it is, you can go black, you go white, you can go gray, you can go everything in the middle,

Starting point is 00:00:20 but you need to make a conscious choice. Welcome to PassionStrock. Hi, I'm your host, John Armiles. And on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips, and guidance of the world's most inspiring people and turn their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you. Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality

Starting point is 00:00:42 so that you can become the best version of yourself. If you're new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays. We have long-form interviews the rest of the week with guest-ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries, and athletes. Now, let's go out there and become Passion Struck. Hello everyone and welcome back to episode 358 of Passion Struck. Incidentally, Ranked by Apple is one of the top 10 most popular health podcasts in the world.

Starting point is 00:01:14 And listen notes also just scored us in the top 0.01% of all podcasts. Thank you to all of you who come back weekly to listen and learn how to live better, be better, and impact the world. Passion Struck is on syndicated radio on the Brushwood Media Network, catch us on your Monday commute or Friday commute from 5 to 6 p.m. eastern times. Links will be in the show notes. If you're new to the show, thank you so much for being here. Or you simply want to introduce this to a friend or a family member.

Starting point is 00:01:38 We have episode starter packs, which are collections of our fans, favorite episodes, that we organize and convenient topics to give any new listener. A great way to get acclimated to everything we do here on the show. Either go to spotifyyourpassionsruch.com slash starter packs to get started. In case you missed my interview from earlier in the week, it was with Martina's Evans, a man whose life is a testament to the power of intentionality. Martina's has embarked on a mission to make running a sport for everyone, which is fueled by his unwavering commitment to inclusivity and to the empowerment of others. He's the author of the Slow AF Run Club, the ultimate guide for

Starting point is 00:02:10 anybody who wants to run. And if you liked that previous episode or today's, we would so appreciate you giving it a five-star rating and review. Those reviews go such a long way in strengthening the passion for our community, where we can help more people to create an intentional life. We and our guests love to hear your feedback. Now let's talk about today's episode in our fast-paced world, leaders, managers, and professionals, often find themselves caught in the crossfire of opposing approaches and conflicting viewpoints. The pressure to choose one side or the other can lead to tension and divisiveness, but

Starting point is 00:02:39 fear not because Evo Brugman's here to show us a different path. Evo is a renowned philosopher, management consultant, an author of the groundbreaking book, Paradoxical Leadership. Through his practical methodology and extensive toolkit, Evo unveils the power of Paradoxical Leadership, and in today's episode, we'll explore how to transform divisive dilemmas into creative solutions, and paralyzing polarization into constructive dialogue. Evo will share fundamental principles of a paradoxical perspective and guide us how to apply them personally, professionally,

Starting point is 00:03:08 and within our teams and organizations, from strategy development to talent management, from innovation to cultural transformation. Evo's approach brings a fresh perspective to a wide range of organizational and management challenges. By embracing contradictions and tensions, we can harness the power of both and thinking to navigate complexity and foster inclusive growth, not only is Evo a thought leader in consultant,

Starting point is 00:03:29 but he also shares his wisdom as a lecturer at renowned leadership academies and management schools around the world. His expertise has touched the lives of countless individuals empowering them, the lead with integrity and navigate the complexities of the modern business landscape. Get ready to expand your thinking and challenge the status quo as we delve into the world of paradoxical leadership. Thank you for choosing PassionStruck and choosing me to be your host and guide

Starting point is 00:03:51 on your journey to creating intentional life now. Let that journey begin. I am so excited today to welcome Evo Bergman's to Passion Struck, welcome Evo. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. Well, today I'm going to put it up here. We're going to be discussing this great book, Herodoxyl Leadership, and congratulations on its release.

Starting point is 00:04:16 I know that this is an update to a book that you had originally written in Dutch, but I'm glad that you have created one in English as well, because it is such an amazing read. Thank you very much. Yes, yes, it is. Let's say the first Dutch version was in 2016, but well, it developed and it got all the experience of all these years. Yes, so you had many more years to make it even better, which is great. Well, in your work, one of the things you often discuss years to make it even better, which is great. Well, in your work, one of the things you often discuss is the concept of opposing polls.

Starting point is 00:04:47 And I wanted to ask you, how are polarities the lifeblood of adaptive systems? Well, every adaptive system is, either it is an ecosystem or is it an organization or society or yourself, we have these opposing forces to adapt to the ever changing environment. And for example, we as person as we need to be active and to rest, and this is normal, a kind of very fluent process because they are self-correcting mechanisms, in fact. And you don't have to do a lot about it. impact and you don't have to do a lot about it. But what the issue is often that is that we try to box these different polarities and to separate them so that the natural feedback mechanisms don't work anymore. For example, in an organization if you see this flip-flopping, this pendulum movement from one side to the other, because then we choose

Starting point is 00:05:46 for one strategy, let's say, to centralize. And then we go too much in one pole, and we have to correct in the other sense. So we have to go extremely to the other side to counterbalance, and then we do density centralize. And it's the same if we put these polarities of the different poles in different departments of different units because they have their own focus. And they stop talking to each other. And that's also one of the reasons why polarization arises because there is no normal feedback mechanism

Starting point is 00:06:23 between the in and the yang in the system. So in fact, this whole idea of paradoxical leadership is also to reconnect these polls who we have separated so that they can work together and be a driving force instead of something that is splitting is divisive in one sense or another. I also wanted you to perhaps discuss this in a personal context, and in the book,

Starting point is 00:06:53 you bring up Esther Pearl's book, Meeting and Captivity, where she explores the secret to happy long-term relationships. How do polarities in our inner world drive our behaviors and long-term success of things like our relationships. Yeah, because for example, and it's interesting the example of Esther Perel, because she said, well, we identify good relationship with being very close to each other, to very loving,

Starting point is 00:07:18 etc. That's one side of it. But it's interesting that there's another side and that is the more risky side, the adventurous side and the manipulative side. And I think she wrote somewhere that she said, well, what we protest for, while we demonstrate for in the during the day, we appreciate during the night, let's say, because we need both aspects. And as Esther gave the example, she asked for clients, when do you see your partner, well, why you appreciate your partner most, well, while he's absent? And because there is a distance, and this aspect of closeness and distance is very important to have a sustainable long-term relationship, and that is one of the examples. But also in ourself, you're never one side or the other. You're an introvert, but you also have an extrovert.

Starting point is 00:08:08 You don't have it maybe in a 50-50 balance, maybe you're 80% extrovert and 20% introvert, or even 95% extrovert and 5% introvert, but you're never 100 nil. Because if you're 100 nil, you're only extrovert, you're giving all your way, your energy. If you're all introvert, you're collapsing because you're totally back to yourself.

Starting point is 00:08:32 In fact, it is knowing that it is a continuum and that you need these both forces to drive and to adapt, in fact. But we have the tendency to narrow them down to binary choices. Many of the personality tests are also are you expert, introvert, and it's interesting if you see if you do the Myers-Briggs test type indicator, the MBDI or a ENTJ or whatever however, but this one aspect that is a binary interpretation of something what is scaled from one to hundred and if you're 49 on the scale you're an introvert if you're 51 you are next to the work. Well, that's a strange binary interpretation of something that is quite

Starting point is 00:09:16 fluid and well and that we need in fact both to be successful and to be happy and that's both to be successful and to be happy and that's the best thing to do with that. Well, one of the things I've found in my own personal career is that we tend to spend a lot of times on the very distant sides of the polls and we end up practicing something called either or thinking and for the listener I was hoping you could explain this concept of either or thinking and why it's grossly inadequate. Yeah, well, let me also say why it is attractive because it gives you a very clear identity, yeah?

Starting point is 00:09:54 That is well, I'm, let's say, I have a blue management style, a yellow management style or whatever style you have. Then you are quite predictable. People know what you are about, so that creates a lot of stability, but it also can very much narrow yourself to just one side of yourself. So either or thinking creates, you make a choice, and if you're making your CV or your LinkedIn profile, you want to be precise, because we're also rewarded for being very precise,

Starting point is 00:10:28 a marketing, you need to be, yeah, what are you about in one elevator pitch, just say your identity because then we know, and that can be helpful, that can be helpful as it creates clarity. However, it is also very detrimental because we have all these other aspects of ourselves that we put aside and that's fine that we do that in our spare time. But anyway, we need this balance for our success, but also for our well-being. But it is very, and then we see, for example, that the system always self-corrects, but it can be with a big bang or it can be very fluently. If I, for example, I listen well to my body, then I'm getting tired, I'm going to sleep. That's the normal flow. But if I say, well, no, I need to finish this, etc. And then I work part of the night. Then I have to, the day after or two days after,

Starting point is 00:11:27 I will be very tired. I have my rebounds from that. The system always itself correct. But therefore it's also very important to listen to the signals in yourself, but also signals in organizations, signals that are. People can sense this. also signals in organizations, signals that are, people can sense this, people can sense this

Starting point is 00:11:48 that you're going a little bit too much in one direction and that there needs to be a correction on the other side. And it's better to implement that correction yourself then that the system correct itself and you're, let's say, more victim of the system than you control it in some way. One of the things you describe in the book is the concept of the polarity wheel.

Starting point is 00:12:11 And I wish it was something that we could show a listener because I think it does a great example of some of the things you were discussing about. But I was hoping you might be able to explain to them what it is and how you might utilize it. That's an interesting one. We, in fact, to deal with polarities, I propose in the book, basically three steps.

Starting point is 00:12:33 One of this is naming these polarities because the polarities are under the surface. They are not very tangible. We often see dilemmas, but we don't see the polarities that are beneath it. Secondly, as a value in these both sides, and because they have both value and third, and then comes the polarity wheel in, you can combine them in different ways. Let's say that hard work and play, for example.

Starting point is 00:12:59 These are two aspects of yourself, and you value them. You can say, well, I think they're equally important. Okay, how are you going to combine them? And we all, if we think about bringing together opposite, we all always thinking either of a compromise, something in between, or a beautiful synthesis where everything comes in a kind of Yin,ang way together. But there are much more options

Starting point is 00:13:26 to do that. You can say, well, hard work and play, let's say 95% of the time I'm working hard, I'm a consultant and 5% of the time I'm playing hard and then in my work as a consultant we had all, yeah, it's mostly working but then you can have a football, what is it, football machine that you can just, now first bar, yeah, first bar, exactly that you just can unload your energy and then go back to work again. So that is, let's say the other ball is not equally important, it's exhaust valve, you just have to release some energy because otherwise it's not sustainable to be just in one poll.

Starting point is 00:14:07 You can have both goals together in equal way, for example, you say, well, at work, I'm very disciplined, but in my spare time, I'm a creative artist and I do that or I'm a dancer and I do that in parallel. There's also a way to combine them, or you can do that situationally, in some situations you go very disciplined, and in other ways you go with the flow. So there are different ways to combine them. And it's interesting, and one of the ways is also to say, compromise, let's have a little bit of both. Advantage is yet, well, they're connected. You're not working so hard, but you also

Starting point is 00:14:46 work in a quiet, relaxing playful way, okay. But the disadvantage is that you don't, well, the risk is that you don't do both, because you're stuck somewhere in the middle, you're failing on both sides. So it's interesting to explore other ways to combine them. And in my, in the polarity wheel level 6 and 7 because there's 7 levels, I, we cannot visualize it here, is for example creative combinations, how interesting is that, for example, I don't know if it's still the case, but Google used to pay their staff per five days a week, but four days a week they work on a disciplined way on the project of the business. In this one day a week they can freely experiment on the infrastructure of the company. The only thing that

Starting point is 00:15:33 they have to do is that they share their results with their colleagues. The innovative spin of it this one day is greater than of the four days they work in a disciplined way. So it's, let's say, both polls are closely together. You get the discipline to work and you get play and you get the best of both things because the interaction is the sharing of this, let's say, this prototype is developed. And I think it's a very fundamental point

Starting point is 00:16:02 because people might think, oh paradox, leadership that is very difficult because we always need to find the perfect balance in the middle. Know that it's absolutely not true. In fact, it is, you can go black, you go white, you can go gray, you can go everything in the middle, but you need to make a conscience choice. And in the polarity, will you have seven choices to make to measure these both goals? And any possible way to combine them have advantages, but also disadvantages.

Starting point is 00:16:37 It is really being able and being conscience to choose whatever is needed in a specific situation. Let's say that you're a very traditional company, and you want to innovate, then you don't step immediately to a kind of synthesis between everything is innovative and innovation is the livelihood of the organization. Then maybe you start with being a traditional firm and having something a small laboratory setting besides your primary process where you can experiment and then you get maybe a first step

Starting point is 00:17:13 that you can take. So you don't have to go to a kind of integrated synthesis all of the time. It has advantages and disadvantages. I think a good example of that is better up. Within that company, they have something called better up labs. And there's a subset of the company that works within better up labs, but they also have PhDs that are throughout the whole company that can come into the lab or come out of it

Starting point is 00:17:39 based on what type of specific need or research that they're trying to undertake. So that might be an example of doing that. Yeah, it's both integrated, let's say, in your core business. And it's also kind of laboratory setting besides, it's in fact, both, and that's a big strength. Another interesting thing that you had in the book

Starting point is 00:18:04 about polarities is something called the constellation exercise where it teaches you how you can explore what your own polarities are. And you talk about that? Yeah, that's a very powerful exercise. In fact, I do it in every workshop I have. And it gives such an insight. A higher early piece like this hate German, an insight of people how to experience their own polarity.

Starting point is 00:18:30 So it's a very simple exercise. In fact, you ask people to choose a polarity that is predominant in their life. For example, between working in a structured way and being very creative. Being, let's say, a harmony seeker or let's say, conflict seeker is a daughter of work, but having that clear boundaries.

Starting point is 00:18:52 Then they write it on two pieces of paper, on each paper, one polarity. Then they lay it on the ground. It's an exercise they do it in pairs. One is the coach, and one is the coachy, and then they change roles afterwards. And then the coachy explore four positions, that is, he or she is going to stand,

Starting point is 00:19:12 just stand on this paper with, let's say, structure on it, and they feel in a sense what it is doing with them, and they can have examples of their life, but also they feel something and you often see that in the body language of people who are standing there say, oh yes, yeah, this is feel good, or their mouth say something different than their body say, they say, well, I'm very, I'm feeling very good, I'm very comfortable here. So it is, and the body saying a completely different story than what they say. But it's very interesting because the coach gives feedback and then explore the extreme of that

Starting point is 00:19:51 pole. You go really to the you take it to the extreme and what does that do to you? If you say, well, go to structure, well, then it is a hyper structure. You cannot move anymore. And people have this physical feeling what they do, that it does something with them. And then they go to the other pole, they explore the pole that they're maybe less familiar with. They also see what is the strength, what is the limitation, also they exaggerate that. So they can see where is the cutoff point, where is the limit, where something that might be a strength becomes liability. And then the third position is that they have explored both poles that is somewhere where in the middle between this and on this continuum between those poles,

Starting point is 00:20:34 are you stand? What is your natural default setting? Where is your natural position? And they can stand there. What does that mean for your daily job? What do you need to move a step to the left or to the right? Then the third step is then they step outside this line between the two poles. And they, let's say, not from looking at them from a distance. They look at it from a distance, but they're also connected to both poles. And often there arises a new way of bringing them together that is more than just, let's say, a compromise in the line somewhere in between. It's very, they do it 15 minutes, very simple. I've done it with mayors, to police officers, to army generals.

Starting point is 00:21:26 And it's such a powerful tool because in 15 minutes, they have a profound exchange about the polarity. And they often recognize that they're struggling with the same polarity. Maybe in other words, and traditional polarities that come up are giving autonomy and controlling or structuring and improvising, taking care of others and having your own boundaries. These are these typical things. What I often do when I work in company is that after this exercise has been done,

Starting point is 00:22:00 I ask people just to name the polarities where they have worked with. And often, if you look at them, there are often two or three underlying polarities that also define the polarities of the organization, because the organization attracts also the people with the same polarities or people have incorporated the organizational polarities. It's very interesting. So it's a very short term.

Starting point is 00:22:24 It's described because it's described also visually in the book. But sensing it, it is so much stronger than just talking about it. And sometimes people have a resistance and we have to stand on a piece of paper when it's this for kind of idiot exercise. But then when they do it, it's say, well, well, I never ever thought that I would feel something. And that gives the eye opening and the inside. Well, it sounds even like something that some of our world leaders should do together in an exercise to help them see the different sides of polarity that they're all on. to help them see the different sides of polarity that they're all on. Luckily, by the way, you can also do it collectively,

Starting point is 00:23:08 if you do a collective polarity in a management team where they all struggle with. It's interesting to see how people position on that line, maybe the financial control is on the left because they say, well, we need some structure and all the creative people on the right and there is nothing in between. Very interesting also to see, yeah, because it's systemic,

Starting point is 00:23:30 sometimes people stand on one side of the curve because all the others stand on the other side, because it's not a, let's say, that's their preferred style, because they want to balance the whole and therefore they take another position that is not their natural position, but to counterbalance all the others. One thing I picked up in the book is that you have been a fan of paradoxes and have studied them your whole life. What led to your interest in them? Well, I live in Antwerp in Belgium and let's say 30 miles above

Starting point is 00:24:09 Brussels and 100 miles below Amsterdam. And my mother was Dutch and my father was Belgian. And while they speak the same language in theory, but anyway, it took completely different cultures. Interesting also to be from a family who is bicultural. So you learn to talk two languages, in fact, two languages in the broad sense with values. So for me, it's easy to work in the Netherlands and to work in Belgium. For some people in Belgium, it's impossible to work in the Netherlands because it's a complete different culture. So that is one aspect that is of course linked to my upbringing, but also the aspect that I realized that I have so many contradictory aspects in myself.

Starting point is 00:24:57 And when I was an adolescent, I was one day, I was a punk rocker, the other day I was a hippie. In the third day I walked with a dandy suit on. So the question is, who am I, in fact, that? So it's an identity question. And later in my life, I discovered that it is just, that it's really an advantage to have this different aspects of yourself that you can be very conceptual, but very practical, and that you can switch depending on the situation. And if I do, for example, one talked about the personality test, if I do one personality test, I'm an extreme introvert.

Starting point is 00:25:34 If I do another, I'm an extreme extrovert. And both true. So the interesting as for the philosophy, the question of identity is a very interesting one that is very strong link to that. But anyway, I left this fascination about paradoxes. I left it for, let's say, 20 years. It was something under the surface. But let's say 10 years ago, more than 10 years ago, 15 years ago, I restarted thinking about this paradox because I, so what one trigger was I was traveling frequently for my work with, with, with airplanes, and I was just asking myself the question, how can we live in a very sustainable way. And often, well, then you come to a kind of polarity between, well, anyway, you want to economically grow and to see everything in the world on one side, but on the other hand, what you want to limit your decrease

Starting point is 00:26:37 in your footprint. It's a kind of dilemma, one or the other. And maybe you can be something in between saying, oh, I ate less meat or I'm less traveling by airplane. But yeah, that's compromised. So my question there was also both and can we grow on limitless without limits and also diminish our footprint at the same time and that it was in 2008-09. There was the time of second life at the predecessor of the Metaverse.

Starting point is 00:27:08 And maybe I said, oh, well, we can grow in the virtual world, not knowing that all these server parks, they enormous amount of energy. Or we can grow in our imagination. So then I started thinking about, all right, is there both, and is there both impossibilities? And of course, I was 25 years, I worked as a consultant in a

Starting point is 00:27:29 international management consultancy. And I often saw organization flip flop from one side of the other, from central to the central and back again. And it was to be cynical, it's a good business model for a consultant because every time they have to switch, they meet your help. But the question is, is this a sustainable way of changing? So many factors, and I think, and what does this really feel, because this is really my mission to bring that together.

Starting point is 00:27:57 At some point, that out that might use your name, my name is Bruchman, Bridgeman in English. If someone said to me, well, then your name is very well chosen because Bridgeman is really bridging these polarities, in fact. And I see this my core mission. And therefore, yeah, I spend all my energy to do that. For my first book, I was working in a consult, say I took two sabbaticals, one of nine months, one of six months, because they really believed in it. But after one year I wrote this

Starting point is 00:28:30 beautiful book, it was after one year, it was discounted and it was no one wanted to buy it, and that was exactly ten years ago. But then because I really believed that it will make it will better and it will make people happier and also organization better than I wrote my second book and well that is the predecessor of the one that I published last month and that became a huge success. Timing is also important because in 2013 when my first book was published. Yeah, the straightforward either or thinking was very dominant. And now we face things in this very volatile world or yeah paradoxes if you go one side, you flip to the other. So every one of the big challenges of today if it's climate or migration,

Starting point is 00:29:18 et cetera, I have these two sides. So people are more and more looking for other ways of doing that. two sides. So people are more and more looking for other ways of doing that. Well, I thought an interesting way to maybe simplify people getting this concept would be talk about vinyl records and how are vinyl records an example of both and thinking. Yeah, it's very interesting. I don't know how it is in the States, but in Europe, records are very hip also, and especially with youngsters who are not raised with this ancient technology of turntable and an LP record. But now, small shops are booming, youngsters are really looking for old material, but also new material, because you're not trendy as a band if you don't release also on vinyl. It's very interesting because these youngsters

Starting point is 00:30:12 are they have everything at their disposition, dreaming, so why would they choose for an old-fashioned technology and why is it so attractive to do? And that's interesting, the polarity, because the more things get virtual, that you cannot touch it, the more people like to have something material in their hands. The cover has a beautiful artwork, even the record has a, you can sense it. And the more things get, let's say, just without any effort, it's important to have kind of ritual,

Starting point is 00:30:51 to have this record on your turntable, to take the time for it. The more things are going fast, the more people have the need to slow down. And that's very interesting because that means that every movement bears in itself its counter movement and that development is not never in a straight line but always in a in two sides. a futureologist, someone who was trained 20 years ago, or 10 years ago, and they would say, well, how would future look like?

Starting point is 00:31:28 They say, well, we would all be connected with a chip in our head to Spotify or something like that. Probably that will also be true, but also the contrary will be true. And also when there is no rational reason, because if you rationalize it, well, having all these vinyl records, you need space to store them, they are vulnerable for all kind of scratches. And if you sit down, then you have to stand up again to put on the B side. So it's rationally you cannot understand it, but emotionally it works like that. So it is a beautiful example of kind of self-correcting mechanism.

Starting point is 00:32:13 The more things go innovative and touchable, about intangible, the more, in fact, the other side becomes important. There you've got all the final records, but you also you've got cassette tapes maybe, and you've got vintage, vintage is also very, so it's also action reaction in that sense. And it's also interesting to know if you turn it around, and for example, as a manager or a director, if you want to change something in your organization, if you want to move in one direction, you also have to make to give space or to stimulate the other contradictory movement. So if you want to have, let's say, more digital, you also need to invest more in personal relationship with customers.

Starting point is 00:33:09 Here in the Netherlands, there is a supermarket chain who has where you can scan your products, but you also have where you can have a small talk with with your with the employee who, like you did in a shop 30 years ago. So in fact, organizations feel that they have to work on both sides. The more you don't stimulate change in fact by overwhelming people with all kinds of changes. No, in fact, also you need to create some stability because if you're overload people with changes, people will go into a resistance

Starting point is 00:33:50 while you create some safety and some stability, people dare to take a step in the unknown. Very paradoxical measures of, often that you have to take instead of they are going in a straight line from A to B. Yeah, we have a German owned supermarket here that is really blown up over the past decade and that's Aldi. And in Aldi now, at least the ones I'm in locally, they have replaced all their cash years with self-checkouts. They still have one lane that is for people to inquire with the

Starting point is 00:34:26 store associate. So you can still have that experience, but everything else now is self-checkout or self-scan in the way they're doing it. So similar philosophy. And I have to say, personally, I love records. I must have 300 of them because there's just something tangible about holding that record, being able to look at the artist. And I loved it when they would put the lyrics on it because they were in bigger prints, you could actually read them. And it just made you feel more connected to the band. And there is something just different about hearing the subtle crackles and the just different

Starting point is 00:35:01 distortions that made, especially when you go back and you listen to albums from the 70s or 80s, it's what you remember growing up hearing. Like you said, my daughter is now just as big a fan as I am and it's amazing how the younger generations are listening to some of the bands that we were growing up. In fact, she and I are going to a cure concert coming up in a few weeks and I think she is more excited even more than I am to go. And I've liked them for 30 years.

Starting point is 00:35:33 They were my favorite too, but they still exist. Yeah, fantastic. Yeah, yeah. It's fantastic, but it gives a link to your between generations. They love it in one way or another. Because in fact, I can think all about digital applications, etc. But like you said, that creates connection with the artist, but also connection with your daughter. It's a whole ritual, in fact. And we see also in our society that we have grown too much to, well, an enormous

Starting point is 00:36:10 amount of choices that people can make, so that it's incredible. So also people need the limitation of a record is that you, well, you have to listen it all, because it's built up in a certain way, you can. So, it's interesting, and people sense this that this is needed, that it is a basic human need to do. Well, before we got in this discussion of vinyl records, which I think was a good one for a listener to understand using that simple context to understand this much bigger paradigm shift that we're talking about here. But before that, you were talking about some of the larger societal issues that we're plagued with right now, things like climate change, polarity, conflict. How do we use both and thinking to solve these complex challenges. And why is it a more suitable way to approach them?

Starting point is 00:37:07 Because the aspect of polarity is that we need, that these both sides are interconnected. You cannot do one side without the other. The paradigm of just simply solving issues has to be replaced by a paradigm that is, well, we can solve them, but anyway, we can try to navigate them. And just, for example, what we saw in the COVID crisis is, okay, there is a pandemic. Let's do a lockdown. It's a very straightforward thinking. Well, here in Europe there was a lockdown

Starting point is 00:37:53 over the place. But the aspect of the lockdown has more negative aspect consequences than you could preconceived before her because then it is not only about physical health, it is about physical health and mental health. We now see the negative effects of certainly with young people on the psychological well-being. We saw also that lockdown and and in breaking the connection has also impact on, for example, the social cohesion that we have. People are more to themselves than they were before the lockdown, for example, what, certainly here. So in fact, if you just approach and then you say, pandemic that is something simpler, because you've got a virus that you have to destroy the virus. But anyway, there are polarities at work in that sense. Climate, well, it is working both maybe on, then you see also how we invest in technological solutions.

Starting point is 00:38:51 That is one side and you have the belief in, well, technology solve everything. Anyway, there is a lot of side also that we have to change our behavioral patterns. We have to work both on, let's say, mindset, but also on structural things. These issues are too big and too complex. It's more powerful, more workable to look what are the key polarities that are driving them. And then, let's say, balancing them because it's not shifting from one side or the other but it's saying what is the right mix that we need at this moment? What is so we need to be a little bit more to the left

Starting point is 00:39:31 a little bit more to the right? It is not all about let's say physical health, it is not all about mental health, it is okay, how are we, what is the balance at this moment in time? We want to make a little bit more to the left, more to the right. But that is the discussion that we need also on a societal level. And that is not something that we only need to do as politicians talk to each other. Because if politicians talk to each other, it's often a very polarized discussion between pro and contra. It's interesting to have this dialogue, I describe also in the concept of the paradoxical dialogue

Starting point is 00:40:15 at a broader, very level. What is for us the balance between, let's say, sustainability and economic growth, for example, that's a fundamental discussion and it is not either or but it's it's a both the both end question I'm very fast that triggers me that is this dialogue you can start with this both end question I call it the paradoxical challenge. How can we improve the quality of our lives on on one hand or improve our economic well-being on the other side, improving our relationship with the planet? How can we do that?

Starting point is 00:40:54 And that is, I think, it's more important to raise the question than just formulating the answer. And I think I very much believe also in society that way we have to improve this collective dialogue on putting it on another level than just now have all kind of arguments to convince the other because that doesn't work. Then you get endless discussions that are not fruitful. For example, also in organizations you got unfruitful discussions in say, if you have a change program, they say, some say, well, first we need to change the structure and then the cultural follow, now the other said, now we're first we have to change the mindset and then the structural follow. And you're going to end this discussion on that.

Starting point is 00:41:38 But anyway, we need to have both. And the question is how can we change mindset and also implement it in systems and structures so that it is sustained. So it's asking another question and I think that is incredibly important. Well, at a time that we need systems change across so many different societal areas, both hand-thinking is an extremely important mechanism to help people, especially when these systems changes involve so many different cultures, so many different worldwide perspectives to get better aligned by understanding all parties,

Starting point is 00:42:21 concerns, and uniting on a common front where you take the perspectives, and you use them to drive a unilateral way to solve the issue. So I think it's going to be extremely important going forward. And on that note, I wanted to ask a few questions on how you put this paradoxal leadership into action. The first thing I would want to ask is, in what ways do paradoxical leaders embrace co-creations and new forms of cooperation and partnerships? I think this is a crucial point that our view, how broad and how inclusive it may be is always partial. And therefore it is crucial also to include all

Starting point is 00:43:08 these perspectives and to bring that together in a good dialogue because it is in fact that is a driving force forward. Maybe I gave you the example earlier of the I was talking to this private equity firm and they have many startups in the portfolio and they say, well, if we listen to your story, the startups to it, who are the best performing are the ones with a very creative chief executive, a very strict CFO. And if they can see their position also because also when they believe passionately about it, when they see it as a partial position and they can go to a higher ground and to see the overall picture while to value the other sides, as expected to see it as complimentary to them and to see how you can be used in a greater purpose, then you get an enormous drive for such an organization and for any endeavor. If they stuck in their own position, then you get to diversity, but anyway, you got polarization and they move away from each other, they won't talk to each other, etc. So partnerships are crucial to have different

Starting point is 00:44:19 perspectives that are really complementary, but also a challenge because it's very important to live with each other your common goal and to also see your position as a partial position and not an often arises is that one of the partners positions itself as the dominant one and the other that is well they are allowed to do something but anyway it requires also that you have the conversation on an equal level and not only by words but really by deeds. So partnerships is absolutely the future but it is a challenging thing. Then you really need to know what are if your partner has a certain position, what is lying below it? What are their deeper values, deeper drivers, also the things that they don't say by themselves, but asking the question and getting deeper in the iceberg is very important to really understand the other. I think that's a great lead in then to the next question, which is we were talking about climate change and the need for systems change, which is we were talking about climate change and the need

Starting point is 00:45:25 for systems change, which is going to require leaders to emphasize sustainability. How could a paradoxical leader emphasize the sustainability and integrate business and social goals around sustainability together? I think the aspect of integrating, because you get the different models of people, profit, planet, that you integrated and it you have both your profit goals and your sustainability goals. It is often interesting to the aspect of finding them equally important. It's still a challenge because when it comes down to making choices, it's often grow the profitability first and okay, we have to do something on sustainability. It's been also kind of cynical exercise in that sense.

Starting point is 00:46:12 So it requires that leaders also put the money where their mouth is in that sense. And you need to have both also when you, anyway, with the challenges we have today, but also very basically, your clients will immediately feel or see if you're really genuine about it, or is it just the kind of window dressing. And also, when we're talking also about new generations, millennials coming up, etc. These are people who have different values in that sense. And I'm still a grown in an age where I have to perform to work and to perform, etc. But people who are now in their 20s, etc., they have different values. They want also well-being is as important as having a new challenge and working in contributing to society is also

Starting point is 00:47:08 evenly important as making a career. In fact, just to practically survive, in fact, organizations, it is not a luxury to really organizations need to embrace both. Okay, and then, I wanted to break this down on a personal level as well. We are often confronted with a dilemma in our personal lives, or we encounter a polarized situation. How can we reframe the questions that are facing us from limiting choices to unexpected is unexpected possibilities by using both hand thinking and our personal lives. We often face the dilemma, that is, forced choice, but that can be in myself. Am I going to be a successful businessman or going to help the environment, that can be a choice, or it can be, let's say, a polarized situation between two parties who want something different.

Starting point is 00:48:06 It's interesting because these are just manifestations of deeper needs and values. So for example, your discussion with a colleague on a specific approach, you can have the discussion on the content side, but often if someone is not willing to cooperate or is avoiding you, etc., there is something deeper beneath the surface. And it's interesting to know what are the underlying values and what are the underlying

Starting point is 00:48:34 needs and these. And often it is not really about the content. It is really about some basic drivers of being feeling recognized, feeling to, well, the need to succeed, the need to be heard of. And often these are disguised because we talk about the fountain and not really about what is really below it. So it starts also with being curious and to,

Starting point is 00:49:04 well, be curious to the other, asking the questions, listening well, don't project what we think the other may find important, but really listen. And also listen between the lines, because what people don't say is even more important than what they say. To yourself, it means that you need to be very honest in self-reflection. If I say, okay, I want to save the world, I'm going to do this demonstration for a better world.

Starting point is 00:49:35 It's interesting to say, okay, these are disconnected with some values of myself, okay, I want to be environmentally important for me, but also there are very personal drivers there. Maybe my friends are there, or I want to be seen as someone who is very socially responsible. And also, there's nothing wrong with these drivers, but anyway, recognizing them for what reason you're really doing this is quite important to be very honest to yourself. And we don't do that often. We see only let's say the nice words, but anyway the deep drivers below. We don't want to see, but that self reflection is crucial, I think, to also to really work on a better world, Because otherwise we keep projecting all the bad things to other people and don't see it with ourselves. Because other people are greedy, other people want to have power on the other people, want to be visible, I'm pure, etc. Also recognize that with yourself.

Starting point is 00:50:39 If you, there is important lays in the book about recognizing your own shadow side, the size that you don't want to see. If you can do that, you can also better empathize with others. If you say, well, really people who judge others, or are judgmental, I really hate them. But then you're doing exactly the same. That's your blind spot. But anyway, if to recognize that everyone is judgmental even yourself, then you're on the same level of the other person and then you can connect and to empathize. Great. And, Evo, my last question for you would be, I know you do coaching and consulting work in addition to the book. where is the best place that if a listener is interested in learning more about you and working to help them

Starting point is 00:51:29 perfect their paradoxical leadership that they can go to? In the first step, maybe my website, and that is paradoxicalifanleadership.com. There, you've got also the links to videos and probably also to this podcast, some articles, and the link to the books, and certainly my last book, who is now a worldwide available, where I describe, in fact, not only other way of looking at things, but also give very practical tools that people can really practice in their daily job. Well, Yvonne, thank you so much for joining us today. It was such an honor to have you on the show.

Starting point is 00:52:13 Thank you for having me. I thoroughly enjoyed that interview with Yvonne Brumens, and I wanted to thank Yvonne and the University of Toronto Press for the honor and privilege of having him here on today's show. Links to all things Y things evil will be in the show notes at passionstruck.com. Please use our website links if you purchase any of the books from the guests that we feature on the show. All proceeds go to supporting the show. Videos are on YouTube at both John R. Miles and Passionstruck Clips. My new book titled Passionstruck is now available for preorder. Links will be in the show notes, and it is about 12 powerful principles that enable you to unlock your purpose and ignite your most intentional life. Everytime your deals and discount codes are in one convenient place at passionstruck.com slash deals.

Starting point is 00:52:53 You can find me on all the social platforms at John Armiles. You can also sign up for my weekly newsletter at either passionstruck.com or johnarmiles.com. You're about to hear a preview of the passionstruck podcast interview I did with Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, who's an acclaimed medical practitioner, author, and founder of the Institute for Muscle-centric Medicine. We discuss her new book Forever Strong, a new science-based strategy for aging well. Growth comes from cultivation, not comfort. And oftentimes when we hear stories like how you used to be, you were much more comfortable

Starting point is 00:53:27 in the grind because everything else is foreign. The calmness, the steadiness, the capacity, each season has positives and negatives. At the end of the day, though, I truly believe that the actions and the person that we are today will show us the person we are going to be in the future and that it's the actions and the discernment of thought on a daily basis that truly cultivates the individual's trajectory and you do have to become deeply intentional. Remember that we rise by lifting others so share this show with those that you love and care about. And if you found today's episode useful,

Starting point is 00:54:08 then definitely share it with those that you care about. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so that you can live what you listen. Until next time, go out there and become Ash and Strutton. you

Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Ivo Brughmans on How to Navigate the Paradoxes of Leadership EP 358

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