Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Jean Oelwang on Who and What Will You Love into Being? EP 164

Starting point is 00:00:00 Coming up next on the Passion Struck Podcast. Love was at the center of all of these companies. And I think John, we're taught to think that we can have love in a company. We have to just focus on the goal. It has to be transactional. And I think that's such a mistake. Because when you build love and deep connection at the center of a company, of a partnership, of movement to change the world,

Starting point is 00:00:22 that's what's going gonna keep that bond strong. And that's what's gonna bring really light and joy into our lives. Are these deep connections that we build with one another? Welcome to PassionStruck. Hi, I'm your host, Jon Armyles. And on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips, and guidance of the world's most inspiring people

Starting point is 00:00:41 and turn their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you. Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself. If you're new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays. We have long-form interviews the rest of the week with guest ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries, and athletes. Now, let's go out there and become PassionStruck. Hello everyone and welcome back to episode 164 of PassionStruck, ranked in the top 10 most popular alternative health podcasts in the world. And thank you to each and every one of you who comes back weekly.

Starting point is 00:01:27 To listen and learn, how to live better, be better, and impact the world. And if you're new to the show or you would like to introduce this to friends or family members, we now have episode starter packs on Spotify and on the PassionStruck website. These are collections of our fans' favorite episodes that we've organized into topics

Starting point is 00:01:44 to give any new listener a great way to get acquainted to everything that we do here on the show. Just go to passionstruck.com slash starter packs to get started. In case you missed it, last week I interviewed Professor Sarah Mennick, a cognitive neuroscientist at the University of California for a Vine, who is the author of the power of the downstate and take a nap. And we discuss all things you can consider around sleep, downstate, and the power of that nap. I also had on Karrington Smith who is the author of the new memoir Blooming. She's also the CEO of an executive search firm and an attorney. And we talk about her journey from the should of life to now having a life that's filled with purpose, joy, and happiness. And we talk about her journey from the shit of life to now having a life that's filled with purpose, joy, and happiness. And in case you missed my solo episode from last week,

Starting point is 00:02:32 it was on how do you overcome mediocrity in your life. And if you liked any of those, we so appreciate it. You could give us a five-star rating in review and share it with friends and family members. Those five star ratings go so far and helping the popularity of the show and getting it ranked on both Apple and Spotify. Now, let's talk about today's guests. Jean-Al-Wing is the president and founding CEO of Virgin Unite, co-founder of Plus Wonder and a B-Team leader. She sits on on the advisory council for the elders, as well as boards for a number of companies including RMI, OceanUnite, just capital, and VirginUnite. She is the author of the new book, Partnering, forged deep connections that make things happen. We discuss

Starting point is 00:03:18 how she developed her passion to become a master connector. The story of how she became the founding CEO of Virgin Unite, the origin story of the elders, its members and accomplishments, the importance of magnetic moments and adult play. Chronic loneliness and what Jean fills is the ultimate culprit for it. We also go into some of the biggest issues facing humanity. We discuss how two friends looked at one of the biggest issues facing the world, the ozone crisis, and how they partnered to create a global solution for it. Systems change, and why partnering is the first step in building the relationships needed to tackle the world's largest issues. What her role encompasses as a B team leader, Ted's Adacious Project and the accomplishments

Starting point is 00:04:03 that it has made, Pau, Jean became the catalyst for so many donors and the enormous responsibility that it entails. Thank you for choosing PassionStruck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life. Now, let the journey begin. again. So excited today to welcome Jean O'Wing, the Passion Start podcast. Welcome Jean. Thanks John, so lovely to be here.

Starting point is 00:04:35 Well I am just ecstatic to have you on, especially after talking to our mutual good friend Jeff Walker about how much he has loved partnering with you, which we're going to talk a ton about today. But I thought a good starting point for our audience would be that you and I had similar starts, actually. We were both in startups, both in large multinational corporations, and you broke a ton of historical barriers while you were doing it. I broke my own,

Starting point is 00:05:05 but we both are now doing something completely different. I wanted to ask, how did you develop this incredible passion you have to be a master connector and be the collective glue and so many philanthropic endeavors that you're involved in? Yeah, thanks, John, and I do our Jeff Walker, so it's lovely to know that you're a good friend of his. And I think there's a couple pivots that I took in my life. I call them disruptive pivots, disruptive detours. And one of them was when I was working in corporate America

Starting point is 00:05:35 and went to become a Vista volunteer working with homeless teenagers in Chicago. And that was an important kind of pivot in my life because I saw how screwed up we were as humanity, that were allowing 12 year olds to live on the street because I was working with homeless teenagers. And then I went back into the corporate sector and I took another pivot where I went to work for the National Parks and Wildlife in Australia. And again, saw these major environmental issues, but we weren't responding to them at the

Starting point is 00:06:03 scale that we were actually building businesses around the world. So I got really passionate about how do you combine business skills with government and with not-for-profit to really scale change in the world. And then when I was working in South Africa, we launched prepaid services with mobile phones. And it was amazing to see that phone quickly became a doctor, a bank, it helped lift people out of poverty. So when I had the chance to work in Virgin, I first went to work with their mobile phone company in Australia.

Starting point is 00:06:35 And then I had a chance I overheard Richard talking about wanting to do more in philanthropy. So I put a plan together. And I remember talking to him on the phone and we said, let's do this. And so I then moved to London and we started Virgin Unite. And by that stage, I had become really passionate about how do you bring the different sectors together and also how do you bring unlikely partners together to really scale change that

Starting point is 00:07:02 is not was not happening in the individual sectors that I'd experienced. And that's why I really became obsessed about collaboration. Well, I love that story. You just happened to be there when he said that and you just took advantage of it because who knows if it wasn't for that, if you would have had this opportunity.

Starting point is 00:07:22 So I think that that's just an amazing coincidence how that happened. Yeah, it was literally amazing. We were sitting in a car and I overheard and talking on the phone because he was on my board when I was in Australia when we were starting Virgin Mobile. And then when I drafted the plan and sent it to him, I literally remember hanging up the phone

Starting point is 00:07:40 and just dancing around my house. Because I was so excited about this opportunity to combine business with impact and then connect it into government as well. And I knew he was really excited about that moment as well. And that was probably now 18 years ago. Then chapter five of your book, partnering, which I just wanted to tell the audience

Starting point is 00:08:02 is just an incredible read. And I learned so much from reading it. So I would highly encourage any of you out there who are looking for an amazing book to pick this one up. But in chapter five, you go into detail on how Nelson Mandela marked his 89th birthday by launching the elders. And I'm not sure many of our listeners have heard of the elders. the elders. And I'm not sure many of our listeners have heard of the elders. How did the elders form? Who were the original members and who were they now? And what are some of the most meaningful contributions that they've made to society? Yeah, and I feel super blessed I've had the chance to work with them over the last 18 years.

Starting point is 00:08:41 Richard Branson and Peter Gabriel had a common idea, but Richard's idea right before the Iraq war happened. He was going to try to get Nelson Mandela, Kofi Anon, Archivist Tutu, in to help stop the war that obviously didn't happen, but he became passionate about how we get morally courageous leaders together in order to help stop conflict. And at the same time, Peter Gabriel, the musician, was excited about the world is becoming fast at that time digital. The internet was growing.

Starting point is 00:09:11 And he was excited about how do we get this group of leaders for this global village that was being formed by the internet. And so they went to Nelson Mandela and his wife, Crosa, with this idea, wouldn't it be amazing to bring together a group of global elders who were all at a point in their career where they had no other agenda, but that of humanity and the planet. And so Nelson Mandela and Grasza Michelle, we went with them and they

Starting point is 00:09:36 sat down and they selected this group of 12 elders. So it was people like Archbishop Tutu, who was the original chair. It was also President Carter, Coffey and Non, Mary Robinson, just as extraordinary group of leaders that came together. And for the last really almost 15 years now, they've been working together to really collectively help solve peace and human rights on behalf of humanity and the planet with again, no other agenda. And some of the things that they've done so far, one for example when in Zimbabwe there was a

Starting point is 00:10:12 cholera crisis and Zimbabwean government in 2008 President Mugabi wouldn't allow them to enter the country. So instead they set up on the border of Zimbabwe in South Africa, a press conference to let the world know what was happening in Zimbabwe. It was the first time really that people knew the extent of the cholera epidemic. They've worked on many conflicts behind the scenes. And they've also done amazing things like started girls not rides to help end-child marriage.

Starting point is 00:10:41 They've also worked on climate justice. There's such extraordinary individual individuals, but when they come together as a collective, that's where their incredible power happens. Well, it's interesting as I was reading the book, you discovered something during the launch of the elders that you term magnetic moments. What are they and why are they important? Yeah, and it was fascinating because I think when the elders were starting, they were all my heroes. And I became really passionate about figuring out how they became who they were in the world and how they had these incredible outside legacies of impact. And the more I watched them, the more I realized that they became who they were because of their relationships, because of the people they surrounded themselves with, whether

Starting point is 00:11:28 that was each other, or whether that was their romantic partnerships, their friendships, and so that became really the last 15 years of my life. I became fascinated with two questions. One was, how do you build these deep connections in your life that make your life more meaningful and also help you be the best version of yourself? And then the second was, how do you take those deep connections and ladder them up to be large scale collaborations? And that's where things like magnetic moments come into play of how you keep those collaborations

Starting point is 00:12:00 connected and how you keep momentum up running constantly. Well, given that our show is done through the lens of intentionality, I loved that your description of it was intentional experiences that allow people to be present together. And you came up with four key categories that they fall into. I have never met Jimmy Carter being a naval academy grad. He is someone I Obviously would always want to meet But when I looked at some of these categories, they seem to be everything that I think of him as a leader and as a human being So I was hoping you could go into these categories

Starting point is 00:12:41 It was just amazing having the opportunity to interview President and Rosalind Carter, because their interview was so beautiful in so many ways, but it was just so honest as well. And I can talk a little bit more about some of the conflicts they had as well, which they were deeply honest about. But the magnetic moments, they were really fell into four categories. The one was around joy.

Starting point is 00:13:02 And you know, President and Mrs. Carter were so good at that, where they formed these relationships where they would learn how to ski together in their 50s. They would go fly fishing together every morning if you were up at like 530 when you were with them. You'd see them walking really fast with their security guard trying to follow them even when they were in their 90s. They just had these deep moments of always coming together around shared interests. And then there was this whole concept of curiosity and wonder. If you go back to President and Rosalind, they never still today and their mid 90s are deeply curious. And they're always taking adventures together. They're always wondering about why something's happening,

Starting point is 00:13:40 learning about it, reading about it, figuring out and they do that together, which again, bonds them more deeply. And then there was another one around honest communication. There was a moment that President and Rosalyn talked about where they actually were writing a book together when he came out of the White House, and it was called The Rest of Our Lives Together. And they got this massive argument because they couldn't agree on historic facts.

Starting point is 00:14:06 And it was long before the internet. So they literally had a computer sitting on their kitchen table and President Carter would go in and write a note to Rosalind. He'd scurry out of the kitchen. She'd come in and read it, do the same thing and scurry out. And they talked about how they literally got such a big argument that they almost ended up getting a divorce, but they ended up

Starting point is 00:14:27 bringing in an outside person who was their editor who came up with a solution. And his solution was that they would put both perspectives in the book and by some paragraphs you had in our, and by some paragraphs you had a J. And it really literally saved their marriage. And they talked about how that taught them how to have open and honest conversations and that they never go to bed

Starting point is 00:14:51 ever with an argument still hanging in the air. And then the fourth category of these magnetic moments is really about community and President Rosen Carter again if we use them as an example, they're so beautiful about bringing their family together and also bringing their family together around shared purpose. Most of you will know that are listening to this, that know them, that they still build houses for habitat for humanity. And so it's in that community that they bring people together and that it also increases their bond. I'm gonna go deeper in one of those categories and that is a joy in play because I thought the story about how

Starting point is 00:15:31 when you originally coming up with the schedule for the elders, you were gonna have the meetings go from eight until six and then Richard Branson got a hold of it and is like, no, no, no, no, tears it up and said, we're gonna only go to lunchtime and after that, we're gonna do play go to lunchtime. And after that, we're going to do play. And the reason I found this so interesting is one of the initial solo episodes I did on this podcast

Starting point is 00:15:53 was about the need for a dull play. And it's been both on the podcast and it's accompanying article, one of the most downloaded of anyone that I've done. Why do you think so many great partnerships take adult play seriously? Yeah, I think adult play is one of the most important factors in people bonding together in that sense of joy and play and getting to know one another. And that story you told, I came from corporate America,

Starting point is 00:16:27 a blue suit buttoned up shirt for years. Play was really not part of my career. And when I started with Virgin, as you mentioned, Richard taught me a whole different framing on that. I wanted to make sure that we maximized efficiency and effectiveness in every minute, which is why I had the schedule going out to six o'clock. And his whole framing turned that upside down. We just got out of a few gatherings

Starting point is 00:16:50 and ending the content side at noon and then allowing people to play together from noon till dinner, changes the entire framing of the gathering where people get to know one another much more deeply than if they were sitting listening to speakers or just in a meeting. And so I think these partnerships that I interviewed, the 65 partnerships, all had that at their core. And they also knew that that sense of joy and humors, one of the best, as Peter Gabriel

Starting point is 00:17:18 talked about, one of the best oils for any problem is adding in joy and humor and bringing some likeness into a difficult situation. And they did it in all kinds of ways. It doesn't, some of them were doing silly pranks like Richard and Peter, whenever they felt they were getting too serious, they pour water on top of each other. So it goes from that type of joy and fun and silliness through to some people it's more about like the Suzuki sisters, their joy came in bringing their family into nature and being in nature. And all things in the middle that again, but all of them had that sense of joy and play at their very center and heart. We'll be right back to my interview with Jean O'Wing.

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Starting point is 00:20:06 So go to gust.com slash passion struck for your first three months free. That's gusto.com slash passion struck. Now back to my interview with Genele Wing. What's interesting, I recently had Dr. Sarah Medneck on the podcast, and if you're not familiar with her, she's one of the foremost experts in the world on sleep. And she talks about why it's so important to play, get out in nature, do things where

Starting point is 00:20:36 you're outside, you're allowing yourself to recharge, because in her new book, you can have down states both when you sleep and during the day and one of the easiest ways to do that during the day is to actually play. So I think it's a really important thing that too many of us either don't do or take for granted. In chapter two you introduce two friends who discovered a worldwide issue in climate change and what I liked about the book was, you kind of introduce it in chapter two, but then throughout the entire book,

Starting point is 00:21:09 you keep bringing their story back up. Can you discuss how by creating something that was bigger than the two of them, they solved one of the biggest issues facing humanity? Yeah, and this is an interesting one, John, because the ozone layer is probably one of the most important human achievements of our time, collective human achievements.

Starting point is 00:21:31 And I feel like we don't necessarily talk about it too frequently because it's not a simple superhero that did it. It's actually the more we researched and talked to everyone that we could, that was part of that. We knew we'd find a science story, we knew we'd find a policy story, but we didn't expect was a human story of friendship at the center.

Starting point is 00:21:49 And these two scientists in 1974, Sherwood Rowland and Mario Molina discovered that CFCs, which at the time were in everything, hair, dryers, they were in spray deodorants, they were in refrigerators, they were actually destroying the ozone layer. Sherry and Mario felt so passionate about this that they immediately published an article in Nature and they thought the whole world would react.

Starting point is 00:22:14 And the opposite actually happened because you had the $8 billion CFC industry attacking them and calling them Russian spies. You had their fellow scientists actually pulling speaking opportunities out from under them. Students stopped coming to their classes and this didn't happen just for a day or a week or a month. This happened for a decade and I was really fortunate to talk to Mario before he passed in 2020 and I asked him, I said, Mario, how on earth did you survive all these attacks on your character and your work? And he simply looked at me and he said one word, how on earth did you survive all these attacks on your character, on your work? And he simply looked at me and he said one word, he said friendship.

Starting point is 00:22:48 He said, Mario and I were so close and we felt so strongly that we needed to alert the world to this looming disaster that we were never going to stop until we died. You know, and they did the whole entire lives. They actually fought for this. And a decade later, three other friends proved that there was a hole near the South Pole. And then what happened after that is this beautiful story of where their friendship and their set of extraordinary values

Starting point is 00:23:15 modeled many, many more friendships that came together that created the Montreal Protocol and then implement it, which has literally saved all of our lives and allowing us to enjoy the sun. We wouldn't have been able to walk out into the sunshine without being severely burned. Yeah, I thought it was pretty amazing. And thank God the British were doing examinations of the polls and could prove that what they were saying was actually measurable and happening at a faster pace than anyone had even thought,

Starting point is 00:23:45 but incredible what they accomplished. And I kind of wanted to use that story to go into chapter three because you talk about it again, but you also introduce other partnerships. And you do this through the lens that they go all in to create an unstoppable shared purpose. What is the biggest barrier to achieving that shared purpose that you found? Yeah, I think what I found in a lot and all in was something that was common in all 65 partnerships and collaborations that I interviewed. And it was almost at the center of these people being able to create these deep connections.

Starting point is 00:24:25 And when I talked to people about why in other relationships they didn't go all in, a lot of it was fear John, a lot of it was fear of letting themselves go, that they were going to lose themselves in their relationships, their partnership, they were going to lose themselves in that commitment. But what was really beautiful is, in many of the interviews, what they shared is that they actually found themselves through that commitment to another human being into a larger purpose. And that ability to be all in for something bigger and for each other allows you to lift above all the mucky, like waste of time, stuff in a relationship that causes you to get dragged down and allows you to rise above that

Starting point is 00:25:07 and stay focused on that stronger higher purpose. And really going all in and knowing you 100% have each other's backs, no matter what happens. Jacqueline Novigratz is mom used to call it. She never asks the question, does he love me? Does she love me? Do they love me? Ask the question, am I loving enough? Whether that's a business relationship, whether it's a romantic relationship, how can you make sure that you're giving your whole self when you come into these partnerships and collaborations? And I think Mario and Sherry were perfect examples of that.

Starting point is 00:25:38 They were never going to stop until they actually showed the world that there was this crisis with the ozone layer. up until they actually showed the world that there was this crisis with the ozone there. That's incredible. And it's amazing that there aren't more frictions in relationships like this. And I thought it was pretty interesting. Now, in chapter six, you kind of went into this and other people had said, as you're interviewing these partners, you look for drama, look for fights, look for the dark side, and you found that all these partners learned how to harness friction for benefit.

Starting point is 00:26:11 What did you discover about relationships that fail when it comes to this friction? Yeah, and I think one of the biggest travesties of our time is that the media and others make us feel like friction is a negative thing thing and that we have to be in drama in our relationships and our partnerships. And so that's become the norm. Anytime you turn on the TV, it's all about how much drama there is. And exactly as you said, I can remember people saying to me, you have to get the drama, you have to get the plate throwing in these interviews. And the opposite happened. And it wasn't because there was a lack of friction. Exactly as you're saying, John, they learned how to harness that friction and they did it by a set of tools that they created. One of the interviews that I just love that really mastered this

Starting point is 00:26:54 were a partnership of friends Bertrand and Andre who did the world's first solar flight called solar impulse around the world. They talked about in the beginning how they had this major argument because one of them, Bertrand, was very skilled at presenting and at storytelling, and Andre was stronger on the operational side. So when they first started to launch, the press immediately went to Bertrand and would call it Bertrand Solar Impulse. And obviously that created friction over time. And what they did is they came together in a really safe space and they had a really honest conversation. And they really talked about starting with why,

Starting point is 00:27:33 why this was happening, that it wasn't a bad intention on either side. And then they discovered that it was because Bertrand was skilled at presenting. And so in that moment, they agreed that Bertrand would teach And presenting. And so in that moment, they agreed that Bertrand would teach Andrei how to present. And Andrei would teach Bertrand how to fly a plane. And they said the happiest moment of their life was when Bertrand flew the plane for the first time. And Andrei got his first

Starting point is 00:27:58 standing ovation. They talked tons about this tools about how they built this way of when they get come to a moment of friction. They started from the place of what if the other person is right. So not going and thinking they were right, starting from a place of why, why this is happening, but also coming from a place of okay, it's happening, we have friction, but what's the third way, what are the sparkles that we can create so that we both become better people? So we're not competing with each other, we're competing with ourselves to become better people. And they mastered a whole set of skills on this. But I think one of my favorite skills in this category about celebrating friction was a phrase that I've called positive amnesia. Because I know tons of these partnerships had friction. But as I tried to dig in in the early in the interviews, they didn't talk about it, they wouldn't talk about it.

Starting point is 00:28:49 And what I realized over time is that they've literally let it go and forgotten about it. And they have positive amnesia because they wanted to protect each other and they want to protect their friendship and their partnership as the highest most important thing that will not get disrupted by friction. Yeah, it's interesting when you discuss this because I saw this play out at Dell. When people think of Dell, they think of Michael Dell, but there's another gentleman who's been with him now for probably 30 years named Jeff Clark. And Jeff is the vice

Starting point is 00:29:23 chairman. They have completely different personalities, completely different styles. But the two of them work hand in glove in everything they do for the company. And the entire time I was around them, I saw a lot of fighting in the executive team, but I never saw those two argue, I never saw them take opposite sides. I think if they had a disagreement, they probably went behind closed doors and got on the same page to figure it out. But I always thought that that was one of the most powerful partnerships I'd had ever seen in the corporate space.

Starting point is 00:30:03 And I think you could say the same thing about Parker Harris and Mark Benioff at Salesforce. Everyone knows Mark Benioff because he's the front of the company, but many people don't know his co-founder, Parker, who's the CTO. And they also have that union where they're both tied to a collective good. And I want to ask you some questions about Mark a little bit later on, but let me ask one or two more questions about the book. So one of the things I didn't expect to read

Starting point is 00:30:36 in this book was the topic of love. And in chapter three, you mentioned a quote from author, Gregory, David Roberts, and I'm just gonna quote it here, love is a passionate search for a truth other than our own. How does this topic of love relate to partnering and why are we bombarded with advice on a self-centered conditional approach to love? I think that we have, from the time we are born, we have been so focused to be the one.

Starting point is 00:31:07 It was so focused on hyperindividualism, to get the gold star, to be the top of the class, to be the top of university, to be raised up the corporate ladder in the company. And I think that's perpetuated in the world, a sense of selfishness, a sense of hyperindividualistic behavior, rather than looking at how if we become hyper-connected, we can do far more together in the world. And so I think that's, in many instances, sucked love out of business, for example. In many companies that I've worked in, love has not been front and center. But what's been beautiful, like through this process of interviewing these 65 partnerships, I interviewed lots of companies. In the Ben and Jerry interview, they mentioned love more times than I can remember and could count. The whole interview is about their love for

Starting point is 00:31:54 each other and their love as they built this business. And the same thing with the co-founders of innocent drinks. All is the same thing with Draper Richards Kaplan. Love was at the center of all of these companies. And I think John, we're taught to think that we can have love in a company. We have to just focus on the goal. It has to be transactional. And I think that's such a mistake. Because when you build love and deep connection

Starting point is 00:32:18 at the center of a company, of a partnership, or movement to change the world, that's what's going to keep that bond strong and that's what's going to bring really light and joy into our lives are these deep connections that we build with one another, especially in companies. We spend 30% of our time in the workplace and yet can you imagine 30% of that time without love in it. It's just ridiculous that we aren't putting that at the center of who we are as human beings and as companies. And part of that is shared values. The depth of love is built through things like a common respect for one another, a trust with each other, empathy for each other, shared generosity. And that's what builds and strengthens that bond of love. We'll be right back to my interview with Gene Owing.

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Starting point is 00:33:52 to Zapier for just $39 on AppSumo back in 2013. As a special bonus, AppSumo is giving 10% off the already discounted price, the first 100 people who click the link in the show notes, the first 100 people to click social.appsumo.com slash passion will get 10% off their first purchase with app sumo. That's social.appsumo.com slash passion. Now back to my interview with Genle Wing. Yes, well, I found that was another really interesting aspect of the book that is you started to examine all these partnerships. One of the things that they had in common was that they had a moral compass surrounded by their core values, which to me is so intriguing because in my own book, Passion Struck, that I've been writing, I've examined four or five hundred of the world's, you can say most inspiring people, people who have

Starting point is 00:34:54 broken out, and I found very much the same thing, is they're intentionally guided by core values, and that's in many ways what is driving their passion and purpose and perseverance to accomplish the feats that they do. Was there any virtues that kept repeating themselves that you found during the interviews? There's six virtues that, and we call them virtues on purpose, because I think a lot of times when we talk about values, we think about sticking them on a wall in our companies, but not really living them every day. And these partnerships live them every day. So they became almost an operating system, a way of being the two that came out again and again at the top all the time were enduring trust and also shared or mutual respect for each other. They were at the center of everything.

Starting point is 00:35:46 And the two are almost like twin virtues because you can't have one without the other. And there were small things like Ben and Jerry, for example, and I've had the opportunity in my life to work with them now for close to 15 years. And never once have I seen them betray their trust and their love and their respect for each other with any type of negative body language or comments or even a slight of it, the turning when they're not when the other one speaking.

Starting point is 00:36:13 They are constantly in that space of deep respect and trust for one another with their body language with absolutely everything with their words. Some of this too, a lot of people ask me, well, what is it, how do these virtues relate back to yourself as an individual? And I think they have to start with you as an individual. You have to learn to trust yourself. You have to learn to respect yourself so that you can hold that space with a partner. But I think sometimes as human beings, we get so lost in our own belly buttons

Starting point is 00:36:40 about trying to learn only about ourselves. We forget that by connecting with others is really gonna almost supercharge that only about ourselves. We forget that by connecting with others is really gonna almost supercharge that learning about ourselves. And if you can do that in partnerships and relationships, that's what's gonna help you really stretch yourself to become a better person. Yeah, well, I love that answer. And I think it's a great lead in to this next question.

Starting point is 00:37:01 And one of my podcasts from earlier this year, I did an episode on the importance of living a balanced life. And in it, I make the statement that the opposite of joy is not unhappiness. The opposite of joy is feeling helpless towards surroundings and the chronic loneliness that's so rampant in the world today. And you just brought up earlier this hyper individualistic state that we find ourselves in. Why do you believe so many people today feel helpless? Feel hopeless. Are experiencing this crisis of loneliness because I think this is one of the most important things we've got to tackle in the future because it's affecting tens, if not hundreds, of

Starting point is 00:37:44 millions of people across the globe. Yeah, and John, this is something that is so, so important because Julianne Lundsted, a scientist in Utah, has actually proven that loneliness is actually a bigger killer than obesity and smoking right now. And I think it starts from when we have been small around, again, pointing us in this direction of being hyper-individuals, like, and being very selfish in our approach to how we live. And we've disconnected each other from one another.

Starting point is 00:38:16 And I think that's why we're in such a crisis in America right now, where we're so divided. And you said something really important before, when you were describing Mark and his co-founder and others and their co-founder and how different they were. And what was beautiful in all these partnerships is many of them were radically different, like you couldn't get more different. But this electric currents of difference was what made them stronger and what made them able to achieve something way bigger in the world than they ever could have done on their own. And it was a shared humility that almost became like a sense of informed confidence,

Starting point is 00:38:50 of understanding like where your weaknesses were and where you needed someone else to come in to help bring other strengths that maybe you didn't have. Right now we're taught that we have to know everything. We have to be right. Our opinion is we can't hold a space of difference. And what these partnerships taught me is that you can disagree, but you don't have to be right. Our opinion is we can't hold a space of difference. And what these partnerships taught me is that you can disagree, but you don't have to be disagreeable. You can find a place and hold that. One of the interviews that always sticks in my mind

Starting point is 00:39:14 was Cornell West, who's a social Democrat. Both are very strong intellectuals in their fields, and then Robert George, who is a Christian conservative thinker. In interviewing them, they have such a deep bond and such a deep friendship and they have such respect for each other, even though they have radically different opposing views on everything you can imagine from religion to politics. And when I ended that interview with them, I'll never forget, they said that really important comment that I really changed me inside. They said, go out and find a friend that unsettles you.

Starting point is 00:39:47 Go out and find a friend that unsettles you. And to me, that's really important, particularly in America right now. We need to be going out and building friendships with people across divides, listening and learning and holding that place of deep respect and trust, even if they have deeply opposing views. I don't think I could have said that any better and I completely agree.

Starting point is 00:40:09 And it's really one of the reasons I'm trying to do the podcast I'm doing is I'm trying to highlight everyday heroes that are all around us, trying to make a difference and teaching people that we can live better, we can be better and we can impact the world. And you do that by starting to partner with others. And seeing that the world is not your own micro entity, it's a much bigger place. But even if you're a singular person,

Starting point is 00:40:38 you can still make a difference. And I think that's something that people often forget. In fact, I had Jen, Brick or Bauer. I'm not sure if you know who she is, but she was born without legs and has turned out to be just this complete inspirational person who talks about how everything is possible and her mom told her when she was young.

Starting point is 00:41:00 She goes, Jen, I know you don't think that you can make a difference, but all you need to do is touch one life and you've made a difference. And I think that's where it all starts. And from there it grows. And this really leads me back into Jeff Walker, who we talked about earlier, because for those who don't know who Jeff is, he was the former head of the private equity group at JP Morgan Chase for a few decades, the vice chairman. But since his time there, he has taken on this huge philanthropy role in a myriad of different areas, ranging from the UN to his company, new profit, to a board that you served on. But he is very much focused on systems change.

Starting point is 00:41:48 And I was hoping for the audience who might not know what that is. What does he mean when he talks about system change and how and why is partnering so important to achieving it? Yeah, and Jeff is one of the greatest collaborators as well as completely, as you're saying, focused on system change. And I think often right now in philanthropy and in other areas, we band-aid symptoms. And we don't look at the root cause of why something is an issue.

Starting point is 00:42:20 We look at poverty and we may do things like hand people money, we may, but we're not thinking about, okay, those people don't want to live in poverty. Why are they in poverty? They may not have had an opportunity to have an education. They may not have had an opportunity to get a little capital so they could start a business and create their own wealth. And so I think it's stepping back when ever we're looking at a problem, understanding what those root causes are. And I think many of the global governance systems that we have in the world right now were created decades ago, and they haven't kept pace with how interconnected our world has become. And I think they also haven't

Starting point is 00:42:55 kept pace with the digital world that we currently live in. I feel like capitalism is one of those. And I feel like there's an opportunity to reimagine capitalism so that it is a system that becomes something that's beneficial to everyone and every, it helped lift everyone in the world. It's not saying capitalism is bad, it's wrong, it's evolving it and reimagining it so that it becomes something that's a tool for everyone. One of the things we found the best way to drive systems change is by galete getting these extraordinary collectors of morally courageous leaders together. So that it's not just one individual trying to bravely

Starting point is 00:43:31 courageously stand and change a system. It's a collective of individuals who may have differing opinions working together on changing that system. And one of the groups that we incubated several years ago is called the B team. It's a group of global business leaders that are working together on a better way of doing business for the planet and for humanity.

Starting point is 00:43:50 Um, and each one of them is trying to do the best they can in their own right. And none of them, none of us are perfect, but they're trying to do the best they can and then collectively come together to really do things like ask the question, why are we still paying 9 trillion in environmentally harmful subsidies and then trying to protect the planet on the other hand? So it's that correct courageousness of collectives coming together and really being able to stand up and be way bolder than they could on their own. Well, I'm glad you brought up the B team, which are a leader of. And I think that was founded by Peter Gabriel

Starting point is 00:44:26 and Richard Branson if I'm correct. Well, that one was actually found that Richard and Peter founded the elders. So, absolutely correct. And that's, and then Yolkhan Zites, who is now the CEO of Harley-Davidson, he was the CEO of Puma and Richard founded the B team. Well, I thought something I read about it made perfect sense to me because in all

Starting point is 00:44:47 these Fortune 50s and other private equity owned companies that I was part of, everything was about the economic model and a culture of accountability about the numbers, shareholder value, things like that. But what I love about the B team approach is that you're also focusing on the accountability not only of performance, but people and the planet. And I think this is so important for people to understand because governments on their own can only do so much. They're not going to change the world without businesses of all shapes and sizes

Starting point is 00:45:26 getting on board and also doing what they can to unite with these major initiatives to do their part and helping solve them. And I'm wondering if you agree with that and that's something that the B team is trying to do. I 100% agree with that, John. I look at it right now, almost like a football stadium, and you have a few leaders in the center of the stadium, trying to change the world, and some politicians, a couple business leaders. But then you have everyone in the stands, all the people, the millions of people that work in companies

Starting point is 00:45:57 that are not yet being mobilized and leveraged to drive change in the world. So one of the things we're super excited about with the B team is something called a 100% Human at Work that really brings everyone in your company behind that something bigger of your company or behind something bigger in your industry, or behind something bigger to change the world.

Starting point is 00:46:17 And you know, we've been bringing a group of probably about 500 companies together over the years now. And they really focus on experimenting on how we bring humanity back into the center of companies. And so they came up, the people across the companies came up with a number of different areas. One is around respect, another is around equality, another is around belonging, another is around purpose, and really making sure and another is around growth and looking at how we experiment and then share those experiments. So it's been amazing to see these companies,

Starting point is 00:46:49 honestly share this is working, this is not working. And all of them really experimenting on how they can have something bigger in their companies that people can really mobilize behind. Because again, we spend 30% of our time at work. And right now from many of the studies, 80% of people and companies are disconnected from that company and disconnected from their work.

Starting point is 00:47:10 So can you imagine if we were able to mobilize that 80% that are discontent right now in their working places, what a different working place we would have, what different companies we'd have, what a different world we would have? We'll be right back to my interview with Gene O'Wing. As a business owner, I realize we all have our strengths and weaknesses and in order to succeed,

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Starting point is 00:48:38 All these links and discount codes can be difficult to remember. So we've put them all at one simple place. Just go to passionstruck.com slash deals. Now back to my interview with Genele Wing. Yes. And one of my favorite interviews that I did on this podcast was with Claude Silver. I'm not sure if you know who Claude is, but she is the righthand person for Gary V. And she has the title of Chief Heart Officer and her whole role within the company. I mean, she runs the HR organization, but she's really trying to reach the heart of the employees.

Starting point is 00:49:18 And how do you bring emotional optimism into the workplace? And so she said one of the things that many companies get wrong is they treat the employee only from one aspect of their life, which is their career. They don't talk to them about their long-term aspirations, health goals, travel goals, relationship goals, other things beyond it. And so she tries to meet with every single employee every year to get a better sense of what their entire life goals are, because I think people are going to be a lot happier at work if they think that their employer is bought into helping them achieve what they want to in all areas of their life, not just the grind of hitting the numbers or the project that you're working

Starting point is 00:50:05 on. So I thought that that was a really interesting approach that I hope more companies will follow for example. Since we're talking about these initiatives, there is another one that you're a part of that I have to talk to the audience about and that is the audacious project, which I believe falls under Ted if I'm correct, is that right? Yeah, that's exactly correct.

Starting point is 00:50:29 But when I started looking at the participants in this, it ranges from everything from the Skull Foundation, obviously Virgin Unite, Elma Philanthropies, Dallio Philanthropies, which is Ray Dallio's philanthropic arm, the Gates Foundation, and a myriad of others. How are you involved in that? And what is the audacious project trying to do? Yeah, so this is one that's been again, just a beautiful opportunity to be part of and partnership with so many others.

Starting point is 00:51:00 And it was an idea that the wonderful Chris Anderson from Ted and Richard and Jeff Skull Larry Page, a whole list of others came together and thought, wouldn't it be brilliance? If we came up with a group that came together and really did these big bets for philanthropists that allowed them to go to scale. And so probably now some seven years ago,

Starting point is 00:51:22 we started to work with Ted and with Chris and with Sally Osberg and Jeff from school and a whole host of others to shape audacious projects. And really the purpose is to find these extraordinary big ideas. And then in partnership, bring together a group of philanthropists around those big ideas to help bring them to scale. And now there's a whole host of people

Starting point is 00:51:43 and there's an amazing organization, Rich Van with Tom Tierney, who's really taken it with Chris Anderson and Ted to a whole new level right now. And we've been so blessed to be part of these collaborative initiatives. Like one example is with these two incredible partners across the African continent, last mile health and living goods,

Starting point is 00:52:01 where about six of us as foundations came together and Richard and others funded them to help put 50,000 health workers across the African continent. So again big bets, big ideas is another one acre that are helping small holder farmers across the African continent and the list goes on so many extraordinary ideas and projects. But I think John, one of the biggest blessings and benefits of being part of this is just the partnership with the great team on the ground doing the work and then also the philanthropists

Starting point is 00:52:34 that come around to support. And those friendships that have been built at the center of that with Elma and with the incredible team that Elma and others have been extraordinary. Well, one of the things that gives me so much hope is how many of these very prominent leaders are joining forces to try to do so much good in the world, and that brings me a lot of hope in the future that if we keep having like-minded people like this,

Starting point is 00:53:02 who I think are all aligned on how do we put an end to more human suffering. We're going to start seeing more and more results in that direction. When you talk about all these organizations that we have today and all the different people you cross, how do you look at being the catalyst for so many donors and how do you bring them together? Yeah, I think that's one of the favorite bits of my job is helping to bring folks together and convene and catalyze. We're very thoughtful in how we bring those people together

Starting point is 00:53:34 and who we bring together. When we were starting the elders, for example, we spent two weeks where we brought together frontline leaders from around the world. We brought together business leaders, we brought together government leaders, we brought together some of the elders, and we spent time together really learning and listening to them. There was a moment there that was a massive learning for me in this convening process because it was when I first started my job at Virginia Night and we literally

Starting point is 00:53:58 spent months like perfecting this PowerPoint. We brought it into these sessions and I'll never forget Richard and Peter, the first night saying, no, no, no, no, no PowerPoint, and staying up all night doing flip charts. And I remember standing in this room with many of my heroes standing in front of me like Archership Tutu and President Carter. And I remember with my little flip chart

Starting point is 00:54:20 presenting the idea of the elders. And I remember President Carter's like piercing blue eyes, looking at me, and I'm thinking, he must love this idea, he's paying such great attention. And then I finished. And at the end, he stood up and he said, I don't like this idea at all. And I just remember looking at the back of the room

Starting point is 00:54:38 and seeing Richard and Peter's face almost falling to the floor and I literally wanted to melt into the cement and we scurried back into what was Richard's office at the time and I've never before since seen them so silent and we were just like oh my gosh what are we going to do now? And then it was this beautiful moment where we picked ourselves up, we believed in each other, we believed in the idea, we brought ourselves back out into this group of 50 or so people with President Carter there still. And for the next two weeks, we co-created the idea of the elders with this group of very different people

Starting point is 00:55:13 from all over the world. And by the end of those two weeks, the idea was way stronger than the one we came in with. So it was such a good lesson for me about the sense of co-creation. When President Carter eventually retired from the elders many, many years later, he said it was the most, one of the most important things you'd ever done in his life. And part of that was because he was there at the beginning helping co-create it and build that set of values and that purpose in it. And so

Starting point is 00:55:41 in convening and catalyzing, I think one of the most important things we do is we listen and we pause and we bring different people from across different views together to really make sure in that early stage when it's just forming the ideas forming, we really think through it. And I think one of the things through this exercise of interviewing these 65 partnerships for the book partnering that was really clear to me is often will bring collectives together and will bring people in the room because of their title or because of their experience. But what we should also be thinking about is what are the relationships in that group?

Starting point is 00:56:16 Making sure that at the center of that group, we have some people that have a deep connection with each other so they can model the right values. They can make sure that it stays on track. They can model how to celebrate fiction, and we don't think about that often at the center of these collaborations. No, I couldn't agree with you more on that, and I will just put it out there to the audience

Starting point is 00:56:38 that when I was junior in my career, I made the colossal mistake of trying to bull nose initiatives in and companies. And you find when you do that, you create so much friction down line because people don't buy into it that it's far better to take those at times extra agonizing periods to socialize it, get the viewpoints of others and corporate them because what I found every single time is that it ended up making it better. I just wanted to point that out.

Starting point is 00:57:12 One other aspect to this I did want to talk about is can you discuss how over the past two years you pulled donors together who are focused on COVID in Africa and how you lengthen them up to the Africa, CDC, and many other institutions. Yeah, and this was great honor to be able to work on this during COVID. And I think it was maybe, you know, it was in March 2020 when COVID first struck. This is amazing guy Raj Punjabi who's now working in the U.S. government around health, who helped start last mile health.

Starting point is 00:57:45 That's where we met him. And he picked up the phone and called me and he said, hey, let's get a group of people on the phone to see what we can do to make a difference across the African continent because there wasn't much focus there. And so we got this amazing African leader, Strive Massawea, Richard, Jeff Skoll, Don Gibbs, and Robin from Elma.

Starting point is 00:58:07 And we just started to have these weekly calls. And then we started to think about, okay, with Skoll and with Raj, what if we started to grow this group? So we started to grow the group. And then we got the amazing Dr. John and Kngasong who was heading up and still heads up Africa, CDC right now. And so he started to join these weekly calls. And so we started to be guided by what he needed on the ground. And then we grew them larger and larger. And eventually we had a tight knit group and Jeff Walker was part of this tight knit group

Starting point is 00:58:37 of 25 people that got on the phone every single week for almost a year and a half to look at again what the needs were, how we could pivot, what we could be doing to support. And then every month, we got a hundred people on that call. And these were foundations that ranged in size, as you mentioned, from Gates Foundation who are central in this because they were doing and still do unbelievable work across the continent to very small foundations and everything in between. But the beautiful thing is they were all doing work in health, but they were coordinating. So this helped be a coordination point. It helped ground it in John and Kengassong's team who knew

Starting point is 00:59:15 what was needed. And today it's still happening right now and we're looking at how we can shift it in working with the Gates Foundation, Skoll Foundation, Hilton Foundation, others, to become a longer term focus of how we help support Johns and Africa CDCs and really across the continent, really a new global health order across the continent. And so it started from something very small. And I think anyone that's listening to this podcast, I'd encourage you to think about in your industry, who are the players you can get around the table to create something bigger and convene and just again make it so it's something that people want to come to like no one missed those

Starting point is 00:59:54 weekly calls because it was an opportunity where all of us felt like we are part of something bigger and doing something that was really changing the world. What an incredible story. And it kind of leads me to, as we approach the end of this interview, one of the things that I hear around all of today's discussion is that there is an opportunity to do behavioral change. And behavioral change is going to be needed if we're going to collaborate and partner more. And it's interesting because over the past couple of weeks,

Starting point is 01:00:25 I've read two different books, one, how to change the other, the joy choice. The one is written by behavioral scientists, Katie Milkman, and the other by a contemporary of hers at the University of Michigan, Michelle Seager. It's interesting that the two of them don't know each other. Two of them hadn't read each other's books,

Starting point is 01:00:45 but both came back with this analysis that society teaches us and conditions us to start and stop certain behaviors, but not how to sustain them. And for a partnership, it's got to be active. And using some of your words, it must be a verb, it must be a daily practice, it must be sustained. And your study of these 60 great partnerships in the book, how do they end up learning to sustain

Starting point is 01:01:14 and why do the millions of moments matter? Yeah, in the million of moments I love, which was a phrase really that some of one of the people directors in the Virgin Group used, where they talked about how in every single interaction that you have with someone, you have a moment to either win or lose the culture. What these 65 partnerships did so well is they realized the importance and depth of building partnerships and relationships with one another. And that by having those partnerships, you hold each other accountable and you push each other

Starting point is 01:01:44 to be better. And you push each other to be better. And you also are able to be a mirror for the other partner. And you're able to actually show them if they're out in a skinny limb or if they're doing something that goes against their values or the way they want to live in the world, you're able because you have that close relationship to pull them back to the right space. And these partnerships intentionally, very intentionally created these magnetic moments we were talking about before. And they also created these as part of that rituals that really held them in their space of virtues and made sure again that they

Starting point is 01:02:18 call each other out because the other thing we have to be kind to ourselves because we're going to make mistakes, we're going to stop doing something, you know, and we have to be kind to ourselves because we're gonna make mistakes, we're gonna stop doing something, you know, and we have to be kind to ourselves to know that that's okay too, but having that partnership there allows someone to help you bring you back into that space. Well, so if you were doing it by yourself, you may stop your habit and never do it again, but when you have someone there that's standing by your side,

Starting point is 01:02:41 saying, hey, you could have done that a bit better, you're forgetting to do this, or this was something that you had as a goal. Why are you stopping it? It was something that was helping make you better inside. Having those type of people around us. And this is where I've really come to believe in the world that, you know, we need to change the measure of success from being one of how much money we make or how far up the corporate ladder we go. So really about success being the depth of the connections that we build around ourselves. Because looking at all these great leaders, that's what was the secret power that they had at their heart. It was their ability to build these deep

Starting point is 01:03:14 connections and to collaborate. At a scale, I think I had never even begun to imagine. Because I know a lot of people think, oh, I collaborate, I build these connections. My mind was blown away and opened up when I listened to these partnerships at the depth of the, they do this. And the last thing I'll say about this is, it's hard work. If you want to build these deep connections, you want to build a meaningful life, it's not easy. And that's again, goes back to your comment about we give up on things sometimes.

Starting point is 01:03:40 It's hard work to keep on going. And these partnerships help us stay in that space of hard work and make that hard work worthwhile. And you may have just mentioned it in that answer, but I always like to ask an author on the program, if there's one takeaway, you hope the audience would get from reading your book, what would it be? My takeaway would be that don't make the mistake that we build ourselves. We become who we are in this world to relationships that we shape around ourselves. One quote that always sticks in my head is from Richard Reed at Innocent Drinks, where he said, we are nothing more than summation of our relationships. So the one takeaway that I would give to everyone on this is to really invest the time in building these deep connections in your life and really celebrate those people and give them gratitude. Okay, and then I have a fun question for you.

Starting point is 01:04:32 If you were selected and you do work for Richard Branson to be one of the first people to give it to Mars, and you were told by the world parties that you could establish one rule regulation practice, heat tenant, or civilization on Mars, what would it be? That's a really good question. My mind was going to all different kinds of things, but I would come back to take care of one another, collaborate with one another, move away, don't make the mistake we've done here on Earth by thinking that hyper individualism is the path to success. Be hyperconnected with one another and be kind to one another. Okay, I think that's an excellent answer.

Starting point is 01:05:13 And I did want to tell the audience that the proceeds from partnering are actually going to a nonprofit, which I think is something that's important to mention. And I thought maybe we could close by you just calling them about this nonprofit that you help co-found and why it's so important for you. Yeah, so I co-founded this not-for-profit call Plus Wonder with a group of friends. And really our objective is to help

Starting point is 01:05:37 spark a relationship reset in the world, to help inspire students, teachers, people in the business and companies to really flip their perspective and lens on life into one of partnering and to learn how to partner. And one of the one things we want to do with Plus Wonder in all the interviews that I did the 65, we filmed all of them. So we have short films on all of them. We built toolkits around each of the six degrees that are in the book. We've built measurement framework on how you can measure how deep your connections are. And we want to get that information as widely as available in the world as possible.

Starting point is 01:06:12 And that's why we're doing that through this not-for-profit plus wonder. Well, Gene, I will sure put that in information on all the things that you're involved in and show notes. But, I mean, it was such an honor and pleasure to have you on the podcast. And thank you so much for all you're doing to impact the world in and show notes. But I mean, it was such an honor and pleasure to have you on the podcast. And thank you so much for all you're doing to impact the world in a positive way. And John, massive thanks to you for what you're doing to impact the world.

Starting point is 01:06:32 And I love the name Passion Struck, just such a beautiful idea. Thank you so much. I thoroughly enjoyed that interview with Jean O'Wing. And I wanted to thank Jean, Stephanie Brody, and Penguin Random House, for giving me the honor of interviewing her. Links to all things Jean will be in the show notes at passionstruck.com. Please use our website links if you buy any of the books from the guests that are on this show. All proceeds from them go to making this show free for all our listeners.

Starting point is 01:07:00 Videos are on YouTube at John Armiles, where we have over 340 videos now for you to consume. Avertiser, deals, and discount codes are on one convenient place at passionstruck.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. I am at John R. Miles, both on Twitter and Instagram, and you can also find me on LinkedIn. And if you want to know how I book all these guests, it's because of my network. Go out there and build those relationships before you need them. And most of the guests on the show actually subscribe to

Starting point is 01:07:32 and provide advice for us on topics that we should cover and guests that we should have on the show. So come join us, you'll be in great company. You're about to hear a preview of the PassionStruck podcast episode with Cara Robinson Chamberlain, who is a public speaker and survivor advocate. In 2015, at 15 years old, Cara was kidnapped and escaped from a situation that she eventually found out to be a serial killer. There are certain things that you can do to not make yourself an easy victim. The biggest one is just be aware of

Starting point is 01:08:06 your surroundings, right? If you're out somewhere, you don't be on your phone, looking down, be looking around, be aware of people so that action is faster than reactions. Like you said, the first thing that you noticed with that gun in his hand, so you were focusing on that gun so that you would be able to respond quickly. The fee for this show is that you share it with your family and friends when you find something useful or interesting. So if you know someone who's wanting to understand more about partnering

Starting point is 01:08:36 and the power of it to bring systems change, please share this episode with them. The greatest compliment that you can give us is to share this show with people that you care about. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so that you can live what you listen. And we'll see you next time live life passion strap. you

Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Jean Oelwang on Who and What Will You Love into Being? EP 164

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