Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Jennifer Edwards and Katie McCleary on How to Bridge the Gap EP 240

Episode Date: January 12, 2023

Today we welcome Jennifer Edwards and Katie McCleary, authors of Bridge the Gap: Breakthrough Communication Tools to Transform Work Relationships From Challenging to Collaborative. They urge us to use "simplexity" and the psychology of human connection to promote effective communication. What We Discuss How to Bridge the Gap Authors and Fortune 500 coaches Jennifer Edwards and Katie McCleary examine how your biology and biography shape and hone your behavior in connections-challenging situations. They offer a trustworthy and repeatable framework to improve open communication by focusing on individual accountability and awareness, meta-cognition, and curiosity. Additionally, they provide light on the inner workings of the mind and the human brain and how these affect how you interact, talk to people and work together. Full show notes and resources can be found here: https://passionstruck.com/katie-mccleary-jennifer-edwards-bridge-the-gap/  Brought to you by Shopify and Green Chef. --► For information about advertisers and promo codes, go to: https://passionstruck.com/deals/  --► Prefer to watch this interview: https://youtu.be/VEpBa2iL-tg  Like this show? Please leave us a review here -- even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter or Instagram handle so we can thank you personally! --► Subscribe to Our YouTube Channel Here: https://www.youtube.com/c/JohnRMiles Want to find your purpose in life? I provide my six simple steps to achieving it - passionstruck.com/5-simple-steps-to-find-your-passion-in-life/ Want to hear my best interviews from 2022? Check out episode 233 on intentional greatness and episode 234 on intentional behavior change. ===== FOLLOW ON THE SOCIALS ===== * Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/passion_struck_podcast * Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/johnrmiles.c0m  Learn more about John: https://johnrmiles.com/ 

Coming up next on the Passion Struck Podcast. I think this is a really simple and complex idea. I like to call it simplexity. So it's a lot to get there to say, I'm going to show up. I'm going to choose to be in the spirit of proactive communication and collaboration with another, even when I struggle to understand, like respect them.

There may be some weird energy around us. I don't know how they're receiving me, but I'm going to choose to show up the best that I can in that moment. It's actually really hard to do because we're all wearing a human suit and we can't zip our human suit on and off and they're all of these what we call invisible forces that are constantly attacking our human suit. We have our brain, a dynamic that is, we talk about quite a bit in the book that our biology is constantly affecting how we show up.

Fear, shame, worry, whether perceived or actual, it impacts how our prefrontal cortex makes meaning of the world. Welcome to PassionStruct. Hi, I'm your host, John Armiles. And on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips, and guidance of the world's most inspiring people and turn their wisdom into practical advice for you

and those around you. Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself. If you're new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays. We have long form interviews, the rest of the week with guest-ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators,

scientists, military leaders, visionaries, and athletes. Now, let's go out there and become PassionStruck. Hello everyone and welcome back to episode 240 of PassionStruck. Recently ranked by InterviewValay is the third best podcast for Mindset and Business and the fourth best for conversation. And thank you to each and every one of you who come back weekly to listen and learn, and to live better, be better and impact the world. And if you're new to the show, thank you so much for joining us today, or you would like to introduce this to a friend or family member, we now have episode starter packs both on

Spotify and on the PassionStruck website. And these are collections of our fans' favorite episodes that we organize into convenient topics that give any new listener a great way to get acclimated to everything that we do here on the show. Just go to PassionStruck.com, slash starter packs, or Spotify, to get started. In case you missed it, earlier in the week, I interviewed Robert Waldinger and we launched his brand new book The Good Life, where we discuss the results from the Harvard study of adult agent. I also want to say thank you for your continued support of the show and your ratings and reviews. They go such a long way who improving our popularity are global ranking,

but more importantly, bringing new people into the passion-struck community who need to hear inspiration, hope, and words of meaning and connection. Now let's talk about today's episode. We all desire quality conversations that move our career, relationships, and life forward. Our relationships matter greatly and are impacted when we are under pressure or experiencing polarization or disconnection But what if you understood the tools, knowledge and language that you could use to drive meaningful conversations and Collaboration with anyone at any time our guest today Jennifer Edwards and Katie McClary will discuss how to embrace Diverse opinions how to master your biological connections, and engage more authentically.

Jennifer Edwards is a business and leadership advisor, working with Fortune 500 companies and boards, equipping them to perform and collaborate optimally when pressure and stress hit. She's a partner at Winning Street Ventures, an early stage venture capital fund, which invests in disruptive technology companies. Hayden McCleary is a storyteller, professor of leadership, and a socially driven entrepreneur

who helps leaders change makers and creatives launch big ideas that change lives. She is the founder of 916 Inc, a nonprofit that has transformed over 4,500 youth into confident authors who know the power of their voice. She is also the host of the Drive Podcast on NPR's Cap Radio. Thank you for choosing PassionStruck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life.

Now, let that journey begin. I am so excited today to welcome Katie McLeary and Jennifer Edwards to the Passion Stark podcast. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you. Well, today we're going to be discussing your incredible new book, which I have a copy of right here. We'll make sure we put a big splash on YouTube, but I wanted to congratulate you both because Inc. Magazine named it one of the

top three reads of the year. What an honor. Oh yeah, it was so exciting when we got that news. I was at the gym, so I started jumping up and down and everybody thought I was crazy. And I was presenting Bridge to the gap and it was like such an acknowledgement of all the work and the intention we have to bring into the world. So it was really meaningful. Well, I think a good follow-up question to this is you two collaborated on this book, but what is the story about how you both met and then what led you to writing this book? That's a great question. So we met in a women's leadership circle, and both of us were independently writing our own books. And when we met, we really liked each other and we were teaching two different curriculums

around communication and how you show up in the world. But one of the things that struck us was our differences. For instance, I am a liberal. I'm a conservative. I listen to rock and rap and treat all the way. I'm a practicing Buddhist and I'm a practicing Christian. And there are a slew of other differences between us about how we raise our kids, how we think about finances, how we think about government. And it was so fascinating to really love this woman attached to her be fascinated by her work and yet be so different. And all of this was happening under the 2016-2017-2018 years. And then of course we all know the pandemic hit and we all went through a very rough year politically, emotionally, economically, socially. And we're really committed to being bridge builders

because there was a lot that threatened to tear us apart. How did you originate this idea? So the two books you were both writing, were they on a similar theme? Or did you talk about it in a kind of resulted in this topic? That's a great question because both of us knew that at our core, what we wanted to bring into the world was healthier dynamics. And we want to teach people how to build bridges between people that they struggled to understand or respect.

And we wanted to do instant chemistry that said, Hey, you're different and I'm different. But when we look at our values, we're pretty much the same. In fact, John, one of the ways we describe ourselves is that we are in much of the world is like two sides of one point. Yeah, there are big differences, but it's only millimeters that separate us. And so it was with that intention that we came to say, hey, why don't we collaborate and write something together that's practical for the everyday

professional to use that would help them walk out immediately after reading the book or attending one of our workshops and have tools to connect with somebody that they struggle with. It sounds like I would sit between you two if it was my family because in my family we all grew up in a very religious Catholic household, but I've got a Buddhist sister on one side and an even gelical Christian brother on the other side, and I'm kind of the moderate in the middle. So I completely get it. Well, there is so much right now that's going on in the workplace.

You can go look a gallup and see an estimated 70 to 85% of all workers globally are disengaged. And when you think about that in terms of a billion people and that many of them are disengaged, it truly tells you something. But then you go beyond that and you've got the quiet quitting, the rise of freelancers, and I think over the next decades, you're going to start seeing 500 to 700 million jobs shift. So we're going to be in this constant world of having to learn new trades, learn new skills, stay on top of what's happening. But I think across all of that, one thing that is still going to remain is communication is going to be key.

And not only that, it's probably going to be even more key to the way that the workforce is going to evolve over years to come. So with that as a backdrop, why do you feel at work and be on work that we're losing sight of the importance of building and maintaining these relationships? So I think that people want to be people, and they want to be seen as whole people. And I think when the pandemic hit and everything went to, I'm now working from home, I've really shrunk my footprint in my community, my city, I think that people kind of went inward. And at the same time, in the workplace, in the traditional workplace,

people were already really struggling with different management styles, different leadership styles, different communication styles, because we live in this really complex, dynamic, uncertain world. And so I do think that a lot of people want more freedom. And in order to do that, we know more freedom. And in order to do that, we know that they're going to have to go out and build relationships in order to maintain their economic base and how they work. And so it is going to become more critical, but we're all going to have to show up, I think a little bit differently, to get out of our bubbles, out of that insular siloeneene and figure out new ways to connect and collaborate, especially under the digital age and how we can connect in these different ways. So it's going to be critical to think about how we show up and

what we're really after and who we're going to choose to build relationships with. Often American workplaces you don't get to choose who you work with. Well now we're going to shift to choosing to who we build relationships with. Yeah, having been in several Fortune 50 companies, you're absolutely right. You don't get to choose the other members of that team. And often you inherit many of those, whether you're coming into a new company or into a new role. But as you've just alluded to, I think in the future,

with so many people who are going to be freelancing and doing other jobs that have the pick of where they're going to work, it's going to become more and more paramount to not have only more empathy and emotional equation when it comes to how you're dealing with work, but also the ability to have adaptability. So it's interesting. One of the podcast interviews I did was with a friend of mine for over 30 years. We went to the Naval Academy together and he ended up becoming an AVC all. Then went on to become an astronaut and the chief astronaut. But I asked him if he ever was to give a keynote to the brigade of midshipman, what would

it be on? And he told me it was on the importance of being present in life. And he described it in this way that, you know, right now when he and I were doing the podcast, this is the most important thing in his life. Now, if his house caught on fire, obviously that takes priority, but this is something that you both talk about in the book a lot. Why is it so difficult for us today to be president these moments? And what is your recommendation for someone on how they can be more present? Yeah, I love what he said is that this is the most important moment right now. And what is your recommendation for someone on how they can be more present? Yeah.

I love what he said is that this is the most important moment right now. And it's actually really hard to do because we're all wearing a human suit. And we can't zip our human suit on and off. And they're all of these what we call invisible forces that are constantly attacking our human suit. We have our brain, a dynamic that we talk about quite a bit in the book that our biology is constantly affecting how we show up. Fear, shame, worry, whether perceived or actual, it impacts how our prefrontal cortex makes meaning of the world.

There are a lot of other dynamics out there that impact how we show up and we're present. We talk a lot in the book about how emotional needs that were unconscious of and even conscious of play a role in how we show up. And we take a look at five core invisible forces that affect how we are present. And you are right. How do we help ourselves become more present? Well, we talk about it in a three-step process. Number one is, you need to know what's actually going on. You need to be aware of what's happening. Blindness leads to blindness. So let's first of all understand what's happening in your body.

Secondly, we talk a lot about this concept of biology disruption. When you start watching your mind wander or worry set in or panic or looping or whatever it is, you have to disrupt as quickly as you can, that reaction, that tendency to go sideways and to get distracted or whatever your lost place is. And then third, we give you very tangible tools about how do you return to engagement to build concrete trust with another to open up a conversation that actually has meaning and purpose to bring you back to present and to give

the other person your engage with a chance at presence. I did want to ask you a follow-on question because you brought up the five invisible forces. Can you describe what they are? Sure. Can you go ahead? Sure. There are four things that really impact humans. We think it's biology, psychology, sociology, and ecology.

Within that, the forces are that we have five generations that are showing up every day to communicate and collaborate. And everybody has different leadership styles, different management styles. Then you have the forces of political polarization. There was a study done by SHRM Shurm that there was 47% disagreement in the workplace about politics and it was affecting and impacting

the level of collaboration we could have with others. So the outside world is one of those invisible forces. Then it's about how do you show up under pressure? Are you aware that you show up under pressure? So how does your brain work? What are your triggers? And once you can identify those and also identify how your mind and your psychology work, how can we build self-awareness around

it in order to disrupt and show up better. And you have things like fear of missing out and imposter syndrome and also the rise of social media and how we're blurring the lines between the personal and the professional all the time. And humans, we're judgment-making and meaning-making machines. And we do it so fast that we're not really taking that time to step back and be present with weight. Where did this thought come from? Do I really believe that? How am I reacting and showing up to all these pressure that are in the room? And it sounds really fraught, but then it's like once you understand it and you choose presents,

presents is a choice that I'm going to declutter my brain. I'm going to not internally multitask. I'm going to be with this other person and choose to engage with them and focus on them and what's possible between us. That's really the key to getting over all those invisible forces. But first, we have to acknowledge it. And it's a really human thing. We're all under the gun about it. But we can change it. Well, I agree with you. And one of the things that I cover almost in every single episode that I do is the power of choice. Because I believe choice is what leads us to being intentional and of the things that we do. And in fact, I think we don't realize the hundreds of thousands of microchoises that happen

to us every single day. And if you're not present in those choices, you end up whether it's the way you eat or the way you interact with people or what have you, you do things that are either advantageous for you or detrimental. So this power of choice really is captured throughout the book. And what I wanted to ask is, to ask is, why do you think people have such a difficult time making these choices that bridge the gap and how would you tell a listener that they can make impermanence to that and overcome the choices that lead to ineffective collaboration and communication? Well, let me tell you a quick story. Right now, John, I am at a raw food vegan camp.

And it is a phenomenal thing to watch your mind want something it can't have currently. And to watch how many choices we make unconsciously throughout the day that are not for our best because of stress, pressure, emotions, whatever it might be. And this whole week have been contemplating that exact question is, I actually do have authorship in everything I choose, how I think,

what I put in my mouth, what I read, what I watch on TV. And we are alongside of you in that, we are authors of our life. In every single moment, we have the ability to make a choice. And if we make the wrong choice to make another choice. So Katie, in our book, I just want to toss this over to you. I think that one of the things we teach people how to do is to really get their brain to a place where they get to make a choice and how they communicate with people that they struggle with differently. And once you say Katie that what we really focus on in this situation is how you show up

matters. Absolutely. So here's where I think this is a really simple and complex idea. I like to call it simplicity. So it's a lot to get there to say, I'm going to show up. I'm going to choose to be in the spirit of proactive communication and collaboration with another. Even when I struggle to understand, respect them, there may be some weird energy around us. I don't know how they're receiving me,

but I'm going to choose to show up the best that I can in that moment. And we give some tools that are very easy that say, all right, before that interaction, if you're nervous, go and wash your hands. Go reset your body temperature and coach yourself in the mirror. What's the first question that you're going to ask when you're with that person. Are they going to want to lead with a more business agenda? Are they going to want to lead with a more relational sincerity energy? Anticipate what's going to make them comfortable. So instead of focusing on our nervousness and our agenda and what we're feeling, I'm going to shift and focus on that other person and I'm coaching myself while I'm washing my hands. I do things like when I'm with that other

person, and I find my mind wandering or distracted or anything, I start to pinch my thumb. I send a pressure point throughout my body to be more here and more present. I ask curious questions. Tell me about what's happening in your pipeline right now. Tell me about what you're celebrating. Tell me about what you did for the weekend. Tell me about the challenges you're trying to overcome in your business. I mean, there's a million different ways to ask this open-ended question. My job is to listen and listen if we rearrange the letters is silent. Shut up. Yeah. And it's interesting, once you practice this muscle more and more, it becomes almost like a template, like something that's replicable,

that now you can show up with nearly almost anyone, but that's the simplicity part. It takes a lot to get yourself primed to do that. But once you kind of learn and you learn what works for you, it becomes easier over time to show up better and to make those intentional choices. Become second nature. How am I showing up? What do I want to accomplish? How am I going to serve and collaborate with this person in front of me? And John made a really important point and we summarize it often in this one thing. Before you go anywhere, take five big deep breaths, loosen your jaw,

relax your shoulders, take five more breaths in your biology changes. You become open, your brain opens to creativity and curiosity, and people sense that. It's like a smell. And so, it's your responsibility to enter a room, enter an engagement, enter an experience with someone as clean as you can. No one else's. Yeah, it's interesting. I had Juliet Funt on the podcast, but she has a book and she talks about the need for white space and that we're not giving ourselves enough white space, which is kind of what you're just alluding to, is we get into these rhythms of our days and we go from meeting to meeting, task from task,

but we don't give ourselves these opportunities and it could be just a five to 10 second period where we're just taking those deep breaths or giving ourselves a little micro break so that we can recharge ourselves and hit our down state and come back. So I think what you just brought up is a very important point. Between what you both just said, there are so many different ways that I can take this, but I'm gonna jump back into the book and I'm going to hit chapter two. And in there, you're talking about how emotions play a huge role in how effective collaboration

and communication is. And you introduce what I thought was going to be a person, but it turns out to be a thing that you call Amy. So I was hoping we could go into this biology less than a little bit more and how Amy impacts the way we communicate and collaborate. Absolutely. Yeah, we love Amy Katie, don't we?

But we all so dread her. We call Amy your friend of me, your friend and your enemy. And it's like the angel or the devil sitting on your shoulder. And a lot of us are unconscious to the fact that we have this small organ in the very back of our brain, which is the oldest part of our brain, and really responsible for our instincts, for flight, for are we in trouble, are we in danger? And so, Amy is short for a middala. in danger. And so Amy is short for a mid to left. And Amy is always scanning to try to keep you safe. But in our modern world, Amy struggles to know the difference between a perceived threat and an actual threat. So whether you know, a bear is coming at you in the forest,

your body is immediately going to react and you're going to run. But let's say that you get invited to Thanksgiving dinner and that uncle or that aunt is going to be there again. And Amy also has lots of threats. That's a threat to your identity. It's a threat to how you feel. It's going to make you uncomfortable. So there's a whole chemical cocktail of hormones and other things that basically flood your prefrontal cortex, which is behind your forehead. And that's where curiosity, communication, collaboration, creativity, it's where all the wonderful things about us humans sit. And Amy is sending all this junk through your brain and body saying, you're under danger,

you're under danger. And they're not going to understand you, they're not going to value what you have to say, they don't respect your point of view. And whether you're conscious or unconscious to it, you're basically rendering a bunch of your amazingness, like it's useless at this point. It's like a big dark cloud that's really taking you over and you've been hijacked. So we have to build awareness around that to say, am I in charge of my choices and how I want to show up and carry this interaction or is Amy driving the car? Okay, and a follow on to that is you also introduce psychological flexibility in that same chapter.

Can you explain what that is as well? Yeah, Amy's always at play, whether we're aware of it or not. And we believe that one of the biggest tools we can use to be in choice and to be intentional and to manage Amy is to practice an idea called psychological flexibility. And psychological flexibility takes a lot of presence and a lot of choice. And it says that in this given moment, instead of reacting in fear or judgment, I'm going to breathe and ask myself the question, I wonder what's really going on right here. What can I be curious about?

And the hardest question we ask is, what don't I know that I don't know? And what story am I making up that may have no evidence? A psychological, flexible person is very intentional and present, and calms their aiming in their biology and says, OK, I'm bugged, I'm irritated, I'm triggered. What might I learn here? Encyclological flexibility is practiced rarely by many of us. We're at such a effect at such cause

of what's happening in our life, that it is a muscle that all of us need to develop, including all three of us on this call. All of us have a predisposition, even though we're in this work, to jump to judgment. That's what the brain wants to make judgment and meaning of any situation. Psychological flexibility is a little bit like yoga. It's a practice and it grows as we continue in practice. This is the Passion Start Podcast with our guest, Katie McClary and Jennifer Edwards. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Shopify. Here at that little chitching,

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Go to Shopify.com slash passion struck to take your business to the next level today shopify.com slash passion struck. Thank you so much for listening to the show. I love hearing from all of you. And I love the fact that you have all been great to our sponsors because they're the ones that keep the show going as well. You can check out all the sponsors at passionstruck.com slash deals. You'll find all the codes and URLs. All those things are there. So please consider supporting those who support this show. Now, back to my conversation with Katie McClarry and Jennifer Edwards. Katie, one of the things that I've covered a lot on the podcast is the topic of ego.

And I've covered it both from the side of intellectual humility, as well as on the side of how our ego can become our worst enemy. Something you guys both cover in the book as well, how does ego impact the way that we communicate and how do we deal with that if it's getting the best of us? So ego is really so tied to who we are in our sense of identity. As humans, we crave safety in knowing who we are, what we're about, labels, containers, buckets. We like to know as a species.

And I think that's really wrapped up in our ego, especially over time, as we become less malleable in our ego, especially over time as we become less malleable in our ego. And so when people show up and just say, well, this is just who I am, you can't change me. This is what I'm about, right? And we're proud of it. And we feel proudness in that particular certainty. What's happening, though, is that our identity in our ego is getting in the way of perspective building. And instead of us being curious and having a sense of exploration, wonder, awe, right? I mean, we all have those moments when something strikes us and we're like, oh, what is that? It's all within us. That's a part of one of our emotions that we can feel. But we don't do that when we're with other people who are

different than us. We get really, that's my identity. If you don't do what I do, then you're threatening what I've chosen to be, what I'm proud to be. And so I think it's about not taking things so personally against your identity that you can't even be with someone who thinks so drastically than you do. And so we have to suspend and disrupt all the evidence that we have accumulated that our ego has accumulated that says this is right, this is who you are, this is what you're about. And there's no room for any other perceptions. And unfortunately, I think Jennifer and I would both agree that we've just found a lot of people who, God bless them, they love their identity and their selves so much,

but they're almost shooting themselves in the foot because they're struggling to connect with someone who's different than them. Out of defense, reaction, the ego, whatever it is. Well, I'm glad you brought that all up. And another thing you guys referenced in the book is Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. And for the listener, I just wanted to bring up a great resource. If you are not familiar with it, is a book that Professor Scott Barry Kaufman

wrote this year called Transcendence. And he's been studying Maslow for two decades. And what he found out was this pyramid that we see that represents the hierarchy of needs was never something that Maslow endorsed or created. It was created actually by a strategy or bid for consulting firm. And so he represents it differently in the metaphor of a sailboat throughout the book

where the things that you just brought up in the end, such as these moments of transcendence that we have are kind of the era that's all around the sailboat. And I love metaphors and I think you guys bring up a great one in the book in the form of the drama triangle. And I was hoping that you could discuss what that is and how a listener could potentially recognize

that in their own life and use it. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Cartman is the originator of this drama triangle concept. And it is a set of dynamics that we all unconsciously play. In fact, as we've been raised in our families, in our communities through media, through books, be it the Lion King or Barenstein Bears or anything you might see, we've been raised to understand that we exist within a three-piece dynamic, a triangle dynamic, or at any given time we are to play one, or two, or three, it can be dynamic, roles to make meaning of

who we are and how we exist in the world. And the three roles in this triangle are victim, persecutor, and rescuer. None of them bad, none of them good. They're just dynamics that we have an unconscious, likeliness to slide into based on how we were raised and how we see the world. And we talk a lot about how the fact that many of our relationships are dynamics at work, at home, and in our communities are playing that dynamic.

For example, some people are a natural persecutor, but to be a natural persecutor, what do you need to play the dynamic with a victim? And when there's persecutors and victims, no doubt a rescuer steps in. And in the book, we get great stories about this to make it become real life. And then we pit that as an opposite. And we show that just like you started the whole conversation with John Choice still exists.

And we don't have the dance in that drama triangle that we do have the choice to author a new reality. And that new reality says, I get to be in choice of everything I do. And we love this little formula. We say every event that happens has a response that equals an outcome. I get to choose my response. I can either be in the triangle or I can be in the circle of choice. The outcome is completely dependent upon my response. So the drama triangle gives a really easy and tangible way to say, oh, what role am I playing?

How is it serving me and do I want to make a different choice to get a different outcome? Yeah, it was interesting for me as I read it, because as I thought back on my career, I've seen myself play all three roles at different aspects. And I'm sure we all do. It's one of the reasons and companies I've always liked how when you're having meetings, sometimes they have this metaphor

where people put on different hats, specifically for the meetings. Each one's playing a different role, so you don't get into group think, but you also don't build up animosity. Yeah, so I think that it's a great tool. So thank you for covering that. Yeah, absolutely. You're like so funny.

John's one thing is we will all play at multiple times today and be completely unconscious of it. We talk a lot about that. And the tool we use in that moment is again a tool of presence like, oh, what game am I playing? What's the outcome I want? Can I wake myself up fast enough to play that different game? I think that's great. My solo episode this week just happens to be on forgiveness and I tackle it a little bit differently than you guys do in the book, but I look at it through neuroscience and psychology. And from a neuroscience perspective, why does forgiveness trigger empathy, compassion,

and other emotions? But I think forgiving is one of the hardest things for us to do. Something that I always think of when I think of it is that hurt people, hurt other people, which obviously impacts any communication or relationship that you're going to have. So what did you all find in your research about forgiveness that makes it so important for having successful relationships and what are some of your recommendations for someone on how to forgive someone else or potentially self forgive. This is probably one of my most favorite topics. So I use the term forgiveness and letting go interchangeably. And I already mentioned at the beginning of the show that I'm a practicing Buddhist. And none of that practice really stuck with me until I understood forgiveness and letting go.

And if I'm really called to do something in the world, and I think Jennifer is called to do this too, is that we see a lot of people suffering, John. And I want to fundamentally change that dynamic. We suffer because life happens and it's so true, right? Life happens and it happens to us, but at some point we have to become authors of our own life and say, I no longer choose to suffer. And so when bad stuff happens, people do stuff to you and we hold on to it, we're just festering in our own suffering. I mean, wherever you go, there you are. And so if your mind and your brain is so attached to replaying your suffering, to replaying the injustices, to replaying the he said she said in the drama triangle.

Who is that really impacting? It's impacting you, and there's so much science about how that makes you sick. And so I remember I was going through a tough time, and I was in my car and I found a really tiny meditation that I played in my car and it was about letting go and forgiveness and literally it was just over and over again. I let this go, I forgive and I choose to not suffer.

And that really changed a lot for me, John. It really did. And it showed up professionally, personally, how I think about the world and the injustices that I see that affect me. It's like, how can I show up differently so that I'm not suffering all the time? And that suffering energy is magnetic and it like attaches to people. So you're right.

Hurt people, hurt people. Jennifer and I both teach in Fulsom Prison. And we love the men there. And they have hurt people because when you really learn their stories, they were hurt. And there was no place to heal the hurt, forgive the hurt, let go of the hurt. And so it just grows into this ball of suffering.

Yeah, I mean, I think the veteran community is another one where so many have been hurt by the wounds of war. And oftentimes they self-inflicted their wounds, which is why I think suicide rates are going up so much in that community, but for decades they haven't gotten the proper support that they deserve, which is something that starting to change with different modalities to address trauma and PTSD. But it's still a huge issue, Not only there, but I mean, imagine coming out of COVID, the first responders

and the doctors and nurses and medical professionals who are on the front lines, et cetera. This is gonna just continue to grow as well as you look at how social media and online bullying and everything else is impacting so many people. And one of the things I commonly say is that we are facing a huge pandemic of hopelessness. And when we think of people being hopeless, we often look at people who are poor or the homeless on the street, but hopelessness, it doesn't matter if you're right wing or

left wing. It doesn't matter if you're right wing or left wing. It doesn't matter if you're rich or poor. Doesn't matter what country you're in. It impacts everyone. And as you're saying, it is a huge issue. And so many people around the world are stuck, which is one of the major reasons I started this podcast. And I came up with the name passion stock because people feel like they can't get out of that stuckness of feeling hopeless.

But I think what you're saying and when I try to relay on this podcast is that there are absolute steps to free yourself from it. If forgive yourself if that's the issue or forgive someone who's wronged you, but you have to be intentional about it. You have to make the choices every day that eventually become a tsunami of betterment in your life and those around you. So I appreciate you bringing that up. Well, I wanted to go into some of the recommendations from both of you based on your book. So

one of the ones I wanted to ask about are, what do you recommend for how people can communicate openly so that all parties can speak their minds? We started with that concept of awareness, being aware of how your brain is working in the moment, and the way that we can get all parties to speak our minds first, take personal responsibility to make sure your brain is as clean and present as possible.

Second, we ask you to embrace psychological flexibility, because what you might hear from another person may not be your preference. But when you're psychologically flexible, it encourages the other person to be able to speak their mind. And third, we talk a lot about the fact that every single person we engage with has a lived experience different than ours. When we know their story, we can't deny

them their dignity. And to be willing to be with someone, not to push shove cajol vomit on them, but willing to be with somebody long enough to allow them to empty their metaphorical cup or all full cups of pressure, stories, confusion, worries. But have I truly want somebody to be able to speak their mind and openly and freely? I need to be with them long enough that they can feel that I care deeply enough. And then I'm not going to sit with my judgment making machine on human suit judgment making machine on. I'm going to be there with empathy and consideration of their story. Yeah, and sticking on those same lines for the longest time.

I don't think we as society have been dealing with negative emotions. And this year there have been three great books that have come out. I've been lucky to have each of the authors on the podcast, but it started with Dan Pink and the power of regret. And then Susan Cain wrote a great book, Bittersweet, another masterpiece, just like her last one. And then Liz Fossiline wrote another book called Big Feelings. And all of them were huge hits. I think bigger than any of the publishers expected

them to be, which tells me that people really want to explore the melancholy. They want to explore the feelings that they're having. And look at them not as a negative thing, but as something that can help them grow. So something I was wondering is, if you look at the power of regret, how does regret impact our ability to communicate and collaborate with others? I think all of this for us, John, is about meaning making. So we can say that we're judgment making machines or are we

meaning making machines. And when we reflect on our lived experiences, on our regrets, on what has really motivated us and made us who we are. And we take that moment to plunge deep. And when we plunge deep, we're going to hit melancholy. We're going to hit sadness. We're going to hit regret. Humans were more wired negatively than joyfully, so joy is a choice. But when we really take a look at that and say, what was meaningful that happened to me or to another, I can attach to that.

I can begin to look at it and reflect in a way that says, what's next for the future? Next for today. And I think that Daniel Pink was really smart to say, we have to get over that old adage in saying, which is no regret. So stop, look at what happened and see how that made you who you are

and how it can propel you forward. I've wanted to add on to that one, we're with someone and we don't agree with them. We don't understand their lived experience. We don't understand how or why they're showing up in the world that live. They're showing up. Something is deeply at stake for them. Something is so meaningful to them that it's our job to uncover what that is. Because if I know what that is, that's got them all riled up, angry, sad, stiff, right? If I know what that meaningful nugget is, then I can attach to it,

and that's how I can begin to open up a dialogue and say, in my lived experience, it's this, I hear and understand it from yours. And if I listen long enough and they empty their cup, then it gives me such a great or shot at connecting and communicating and pouring into them, where our position sits. So it's not just about showing up and listening for listening sake. It's about then, how do I open up that dialogue to speak my truth to? But first, I got to travel to theirs. And what's their meaningful nugget?

What's the regret? What's the choices they made that led them to this way of being? Yeah, it's really interesting. If the listener hasn't read his book, he goes into four different types of regret that are in there. And when he starts going through it,

I think all of us can identify with the four different ones, but there are so many coaches out there and I have to admit, myself, we used to say, let's create a no regrets life. But really, what does that mean? All of us, if we really think about it, have regrets. And if you think about this in terms of a business, it's kind of that fail fast, fail often mantra that a lot of entrepreneurs give. So instead of trying to not think about your regrets, use them as a powerful tool to make you a better person, a better communicator, a better collaborator, a more empathetic person.

So that's what I drew from the book as well. Jennifer, one of the favorite chapters I had was the one you did on curiosity. And I wanted to ask, how do you use curiosity as a tool and an intentional filter for how you listen, speak, and engage in relationships? We like to say that curiosity is possibly the most powerful antidote there is to judgment, the polarization we're in, the division we're in, or the confusion we're in about the person we are sitting with. And curiosity sits as a piece of psychological flexibility, and it really sits more as an

energy than it does as a set of a language. When you walk into a room, you can smell people who are curious or those who are committing curiosity fraud. We like to differentiate between those two because let's be honest, all of us sometimes fain curiosity, especially when maybe I'm with my teenager and I want to get the answer, I want to get, I drive questions that are angled or positioned in fraud of curiosity to push somebody into the answer I'm looking for. That's not curiosity. Curiosity is being in wonder with another person and asking questions that are open-ended and that allow the brain to be free, not be squeezed, to be open from the pressure of having to give a performative answer.

And in the book, we talk a lot about the questions that opened the brain up as opposed to the questions that closed the brain. And Katie alluded to it already, but some of the most powerful questions open with tell me about what about share with me and the best question of all is silence. But let's just talk about the one poison word in curiosity. And John, I'll just play it on you. I walk downstairs in the morning and I say, John, why is there no more coffee? What do you feel when I ask that question, John? I've taken it upon myself to drink every bit of it and put you in a position where you have to make it for yourself.

Defensive, right? Yeah, you're kind of put on the defensive. We talk a lot about the poison of the word, why when the conversation isn't yet safe and deep enough. And so really curiosity is an energy first and a set of language next. And it all comes from a place of psychological flexibility and care. And we really walk people through that and how to be bridge builders by using this tool, whether it be in the boardroom, in a sales conversation, with a peer that they're trying to

collaborate with that just isn't doing it right to take it at home Like how am I curious when I walk in the door and build community with my family? Yeah, and since you both brought up this topic of silence and I'm gonna turn this back to Katie Since the person I'm gonna be talking about is another Katie You mentioned Katie McConnell Olson in the book and you quote her saying, silence is golden, but it can also be incredibly painful. And my question for you is, what is the value of silence? But then again, why can't it be painful?

I think the value of silence is about honoring space. So again, getting back to that white space that I think we all need, those moments to be silent and to process a little bit more. I think we've gotten cut up in a game of leapfrog often. I say something, you say something, I say something, you say something, someone else butts in,

they process something, the conversation moves. We're just moving too quick. And so when we show up in a space where we're comfortable with silence, we are energetically indicating to that other person that I'm okay to be with you. And I think sometimes we really mess up teaching empathy, and we think it's a great empathetic act to just be with someone and to feel natural in silence and to give them space to do more processing. Because if I think about how my own sort of monkey mind

and brain work, it's all over the place, right? And often when someone gives me the space to really do my own internal processing, I often am able to get to a depth and a meaning level of, oh, and there's this, oh, and there's this. And that's where the juicy and the good stuff comes from, right? That's where that connective tissue with another comes from. I think why it's so uncomfortable is one we've been conditioned to do the leap throught

thing. But people are just nervous. They're nervous. I mean, to use grenade brown, they're nervous and they're awkward around people. So we just have to learn to become a little bit more comfortable with saying, I don't need to show up and like immediately tell you what I think the fix is or give you another me too story or I can just be with your story and your words and your processing. And I don't even need to show up in it yet. I think there's great power in doing that. Huge. Yes, I completely agree with you.

And thank you for addressing that. And then Jennifer, I recently had on two professors, Dolly Chug, is a professor at NYU, and then Marissa Franco, who's a professor at University of Maryland. And they both discussed biases. Dolly discussed it in a new book called More Just Future,

where she is talking about how we've been taught a one-sided history of the United States, that creates biases in everything we do do and how we see each other. And then Meris's book is on Platonic Relationships and she discusses how biases impact relationships. And my question for you is how does our hidden biases impact how we communicate and think and how do you overcome the canyon when an identity has been negated, erased, or thrashed?

Ooh. This is the work we almost do constantly in these next few generations, starting yesterday and in the next few generations. We're seeing this bias play out in our classrooms and in our politics, all the way around. And one of the things Katie and I are committed to is constantly having a conversation with each other and with everyone about the unconscious biases we have and being brave enough

to talk about them. And if there's one thing Katie and I call everyone into and we talk about this in the book is cancel culture is so big right now that we need to not be afraid of that by finding a group of people that we can explore what we don't know, we don't know about our biases and get curious about the old stories we've been told through one-sided story telling and one-sided

history and to be open to learning. And again, that's a new level of psychological flexibility. We all have a lived experience that we were told to make meaning of the world and dynamics and people and race and judgment and beliefs through. And it was one story, one version usually. And so what Katie and I talk a lot about is that our job to uncover biases and uncover our own biases and to show up even more authentically open and caring about the human suit everyone is in is to get radically curious and we get radically curious first by being curious about what the story is of the person who are in front of. And Katie says it so well and I've already said it when you really know somebody's story they'll lived experience where they come from what their

their lived experience where they come from, what their nugget is, what drives their behavior. You never can deny them their dignity. And when you get to that place, you can start to redefine your relationship to an old bias and transcend into a new way of seeing things. It is the work we must do. We'll all say it pretty boldly, our democracy is fragile right now. A lot because most of us don't have a curiosity and it all stems back to a set of stories and biases we have. And I'm worried. Yeah, I mean, we weren't taught how the Native Americans

were wiped out to a point where it created ecological. And you don't, we weren't taught how the Native Americans were wiped out to a point where it created ecological disaster for almost a century because they were the ones who were arming and taking care of the land. And when they disappeared, no one was doing it. And these are stories that I don't think any of us growing up were taught or how differently we each saw the war between the Native Americans and the new settlers converging, just as one example. Well, I always like to end the interview on this question and I'll ask it both. I'll start out with you Katie. If there was one thing you wanted

a listener to take away from your book, what would it be? Ooh, I think the one thing I want people to take away with is that we're all in a human suit and we're all doing the best that we can with the skills that we can access in the given moment that we're in. And that if you're really committed to being a true leader and a true bridge builder, entrepreneur, business person, great mom, wife, it doesn't even matter. Then we have to offer a lot of grace to the human suit that we're all in. And when we do that, we can connect better. I'll just say it in this, how you show up matters.

It's probably our go-to statement and it encompasses everything that Katie just said. We all have an obligation to show up with care, curiosity, and collaboration, and to understand others in order to change any dynamic in this world. Well, I love both answers and if the listener wanted to learn more about each of you, what are some of the best ways they can do so? So we have a website, how to bridge the gap.com, the book is sold all over the nation. And we really are serious when we say we want to engage in a conversation with you. We want to bring really practical shifts and metaphors and things that professionals can do immediately in order to show up better.

So Google us, LinkedIn, all the channels. And I also saw that you both do speaking engagements together and apart. So that's another way that organizations and companies can interact with you as well. Yes, we love giving experiences. That's one thing we're committed to is not just talking at people, but John, like you do, talking with people.

Let's change the, let's change the way we engage. Let's all have a conversation. Yes, well, thank you for that and thank you both for the honor and privilege of having you on the show. And I'll give a shout out to Near for introducing us and I appreciate that he did because it was a great conversation. And again, I'll put up a cover of the book, a great book. Go check it out. It's something that all of us, regardless of its career wise or in our personal relationships, can use the tools in this book to get better. So thank you very much for coming on.

Thank you, John. Thank you, John. I thoroughly enjoyed that interview with Jennifer and Katie. And I wanted to thank Jennifer Katie, Nirbashon, McGraw Hill for the honor of having them here on the podcast. Links to all things Katie and Jennifer will be in the show notes at passionstruck.com. Please use our website links if you buy any of the books from the featured authors that we have on the show.

Videos are on YouTube at JohnArmiles, or you can find our clips at PassionStruck Clips. Everties are deals and discount codes and one can be in your place at passionstruck.com slash deals. I'm at JohnArmiles, both on Twitter and Instagram and you can also find me on LinkedIn. And if you want to know how I book amazing guests like John Affern Katie, it's because of my network, go out there and build yours before you need it. You're about to hear a preview of the PassionStruck podcast interview that I did with Yuri Levine, who is the co-founder of Waze, the world's largest community-based driving traffic and navigation app,

an author of the new book which launches next week. Fall in love with the problem, not the solution, a handbook for entrepreneurs. The realizations that the faster that you fail, you actually have enough time to make another attempt, and another attempt, and another attempt. And you realize that the biggest enemy of good enough is perfect. You don't need to be perfect in order to win the market. You need to be good enough. And the way to get to become good enough is starting when you are not good enough. When your product is really soft. The fee for this show is that you share it with family or friends when you find something useful or interesting.

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