Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Joanna Grover on How To Use Choice Points To Alter Your Life EP 308

Episode Date: June 20, 2023

Do you want to break free from negative thought patterns and live a fulfilling life? Are you tired of feeling stuck and unsure of how to achieve your goals? Well, I have good news for you. Our guest, Joanna Grover, is here to share the solution to help you make better decisions and reach your full potential through Functional Imagery Training. Imagine taking control of your thoughts and actions and finally achieving the life you've always dreamed of. You can turn your goals into reality and discover true fulfillment with the power of choice points. Let Joanna show you how. Full show notes and resources can be found here: https://passionstruck.com/joanna-grover-functional-imagery-training/  The Power of Choice Points: Joanna Grover's Guide to Life Alteration Joanna Grover's passion for equestrianism came with a heavy price - a life-changing injury. As she lay awake during her painful recovery, she searched for a way to silence the negative chatter in her mind. Luckily, as a cognitive behavioral therapist, she stumbled upon an unexpected twist in her journey - functional imagery training (FIT). Working with Dr. Jonathan Rhodes, they adapted this technique to help others overcome their negative thought patterns and achieve their goals. In their book, The Choice Point, they share their science-backed method for harnessing the power of imagination to transform lives. Discover how this twist in Joanna's journey can help you achieve your own personal breakthrough. Brought to you by Hello Fresh. Use code passion16 to get 16 free meals, plus free shipping!” Brought to you by Indeed. Head to https://www.indeed.com/passionstruck, where you can receive a $75 credit to attract, interview, and hire in one place. --► For information about advertisers and promo codes, go to: https://passionstruck.com/deals/  Like this show? Please leave us a review here -- even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter or Instagram handle so we can thank you personally! --► Prefer to watch this interview: https://youtu.be/TQ3vVlY0mc4  --► Subscribe to Our YouTube Channel Here: https://youtu.be/QYehiUuX7zs  Want to find your purpose in life? I provide my six simple steps to achieving it - passionstruck.com/5-simple-steps-to-find-your-passion-in-life/ Catch my interview with Marshall Goldsmith on How You Create an Earned Life: https://passionstruck.com/marshall-goldsmith-create-your-earned-life/  Watch the solo episode I did on the topic of Chronic Loneliness: https://youtu.be/aFDRk0kcM40  Want to hear my best interviews from 2023? Check out my interview with Seth Godin on the Song of Significance and my interview with Gretchen Rubin on Life in Five Senses. ===== FOLLOW ON THE SOCIALS ===== * Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/passion_struck_podcast * Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/johnrmiles.c0m  Learn more about John: https://johnrmiles.com/  Passion Struck is now on the AMFM247 broadcasting network every Monday and Friday from 5–6 PM. Step 1: Go to TuneIn, Apple Music (or any other app, mobile or computer) Step 2: Search for “AMFM247” Network

Coming up next on Passion Scratch. I believe that functional imagery training and the way that Jonathan Rhodes and I have adapted it for the public up until now, it's been an academic field of study. We tried to, in the choice point, make it really relatable to life. So this is a tool that you can use back by two decades of research that really does override the status quo. And the number one thread throughout all the research decades of research that really does override the status quo.

And the number one thread throughout all the research is that it builds resiliency. Welcome to PassionStruct. Hi, I'm your host, John Armiles. And on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips, and guidance of the world's most inspiring people and turn their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you.

Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself. If you're new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays. We have long form interviews the rest of the week with guest-ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries, and athletes. Now, let's go out there and become PassionStruck. Hello everyone and welcome back to episode 308 of PassionStruck and thank you to each and every one of you come back weekly. To listen and learn how to live better, be better and

impact the world. In case you didn't know, a passion struck is also known on syndicated radio. And you can listen on the AMFM247 national broadcast Monday and Fridays from 5 to 6 pm, links will be in the show notes. If you're new to the show, thank you so much for being here, or you simply want to introduce this to a friend or family member. We know I've episode starter packs with your collections of our fans favorite episodes that we organize in a convenient topic to give any new listener a great way to get acclimated. Everything we do here on the show either go to Spotify or PassionStruct.com slash starter packs get started. In case she missed it last week I interviewed my friend Emily Morse who is a doctor of human sexuality and the host of the award-winning number one sexuality podcast Sex with Emily which has been on the air for nearly two decades. We discuss her new book, Smart Sex, where she distills her knowledge as a human sexuality expert into a groundbreaking

framework that will revolutionize your understanding of sex and pleasure. I also interviewed Mind Valley co-founder Christina Mondlachiani about her new book, Becoming Flossum, the key to living in a perfectly authentic life, which exposes the hidden perils of perfectionism, and invites us to reclaim our true selves, laws, and all. Lastly, I interviewed Jason Cannon, a former army captain who served in Afghanistan and was the first millennial ever elected to a statewide office. We discuss his best-selling memoir, Invisible Storm, his journey to recovery, and why you must either deal with your trauma or your trauma deals with you. I also wanted to say thank you so much for your ratings and reviews. They go such a long way

in bringing people into the passion-struck community where we can bring them a weekly dose of inspiration, hope, meaning, connection, and teach them how to live a limitless life. If you like today's episode or any of the other ones that I mentioned, we would so appreciate it if you gave us a five-star rating and review. Those ratings and reviews go such a long way to helping us not only improve the popularity of a show, but more importantly bringing more people to the passion star community where we can give them weekly doses of hope, connection, and meaning. And I know our guests love to see comments from our listeners. Today I have the pleasure of hosting Joanna Grover, a distinguished therapist and coach who

has revolutionized the way we approach personal growth. In our fast-paced lives, making positive choices that align with our values and goals can be a constant challenge, the allure of negative thoughts and old habits often linger, threatening to derail our progress. But fear not because Joanna brings with her a powerful tool called Functional Image Retraining, otherwise known as FIT. That can help us extend our pivotal moment of decision-making. FIT is a scientifically grounded approach that merges mindfulness, motivational interviewing, and cognitive behavioral therapy, and empowers us to expand our choice point.

The critical juncture where we must choose between action set support or success or ones at hand, by employing this model outlined in our groundbreaking book, The Choice Point. D'Lana equips us with the ability to take control of the decisions that define our lives. D'Lana's expertise and fit has led her to work with an impressive roster of individuals ranging from Olympians and see sweet executives

to elite military forces. Through the strategic fusion of science and imagination, she has helped these high achievers tap into their inner motivation and shadow records in their respective fields. Now, she shares this roadmap in today's episode, guiding us from mere passengers to proactive drivers, our own minds.

Join us as Joanna Grover unveils a transformative power of fit and shares her invaluable insights on achieving peak performance, prepare to be inspired, motivated, and equipped with the tools to make conscious value-based decisions that propel you towards your goals. Thank you for choosing PassionStruct and choosing me, for your hosting guide on your journey to creating an attentional life.

Now, let that journey begin. I am so thrilled today to welcome Joe Grover to Passion Struck. Welcome, Joe. Thank you. Thank you so much, John. It's a pleasure to be here. Today we're going to be discussing this incredible book called The Choice Point and this book releases this week that we're doing this interview.

So congratulations on getting this out to the world. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It's been a passion project. I want to write a book for a very long time, and then this opportunity presented itself to write with my co-author, Dr. Jonathan Rhodes. And it was worth it.

The Blood Sweat and Tears. Well, it's a fantastic book, and I can't wait to dive into it. And I know you've listened to a number of the episodes, so I love to open up these episodes with giving the audience an opportunity to get to know you better. And as I was reading the book, I understood that you had a horseback accident. And interestingly enough, when I was a teenager, I used to love to ride. And I remember being at my friend's farm and his dad had settled the horse for me. And I am in a full gallop.

And all of a sudden for me, my world starts getting crooked until I'm on the ground, fell right on this rock and just bruised the whole side of my body. I guess what I didn't check, and it was my fault is as when you saddle a horse oftentimes, they will take about breath or not take a breath. And so it wasn't tightened enough. But I remember for a long time, I was not able to ride because it had this mental block in my head about what it caused.

And I understand your horseback accident led you actually to encountering what we're going to be talking about today, functional imagery training. And I was hoping you could describe what happened and how it led you down this road defining your passion. Sure. I've always loved horses. I've always been drawn to their beauty, their patience, physical agility.

And sometimes you get a little confident, right? I was a little confident with a young horse who I taught, I learned so many lessons in this accident. There's often a great deal of learning that comes after the pain and suffering, but he's a young horse and relatively new to me. And we're at a, we're in a competition in Kentucky. And the jumpers you go for speed and you don't want to knock rails down. Leandra the rain, I heard the buzzer. That means you have a certain amount of time to get to the first jump. And it was actually that first jump. We had different ideas. I thought he was leaving early and he stopped. So I was already in a sort of a vulnerable forward position, and he just had a pull to me. He jumped from a standstill. I remember hitting the ground and hearing bones, just

my left shoulder shattered. In that moment, I didn't know, am I paralyzed, am I not? But it was really, there was so much fear. And then the medics are there, and then suddenly, everything after that, there were two surgeries, multiple scoos and pins and plates to keep my shoulder in place. And after that there was quite a bit of fear, fear of being injured again, fear of will I recover from this sleepless nights. I needed to change the chatter my head to change a channel. I was looking for anything, which is eventually what led me to discovering functional imagery training and helped me to understand that I could quiet the chatter, I could change the channel.

Well, since you brought that term up, functional imagery training, you described what it is and how it's different from other modalities of training that people might have gone into. Sure. I should say that along with the writing horses for fun, my training is as a cognitive behavioral therapist. And I treated mostly anxiety and depression for just about 19 years before switching to coaching. So I've been training a lot of different things, but when I read about functional imagery training, it was so different, right? This idea that we could use the imagery in someone's head and harness it. It's touched upon and like hypnosis and sort of things, but not in the science-based way that it is, I'll call it fit from here on in,

but 20 years of research and I'm very data driven I always didn't call to any of the things that are backed by science and feel but also feel intuitive So in a nutshell fit teaches people to tap in to what really motivates them So that's a whole process in itself And then it trains them to use their imagination To use their imagery at choice points. Well, we're going to get all into choice points. But before we do that, I did want to mention that the forward of your book was done by such a famous tennis player, Martina Navratilova. And can you explain how you know her and how

she herself has used fit on and off the court? Sure. So Martina, we were introduced as some common friends. And as she later said, because she meets a lot of people, we became friends, in part, because she thought I'm therapist and that she could trust me because I think as a famous athlete, you're just not sure of people. And then it led to a friendship of trust. I've always been curious about how her mind works. She actually used imagery quite naturally from a time when she was really young, like eight or nine years old. A lot of us, we have the ability, but we don't tap into it in the way that Martina did. She really had it

naturally. There was very little training that we had to do with her, except in understanding, I asked her, have you ever used this same method that you use for her? It was more visualization, and we can get into that in a minute. We work with seven senses so not just visualizing, but I asked her if she ever used it in her personal life and she said no not really. So I hear that a lot with athletes or people who are trained in visualization, who are to goal, toward achieving something, whether it's winning on the court or winning a medal. So have you ever used this for a difficult conversation

with a spouse or with some other challenge? And it's usually, no, not really. I hadn't thought of that. So we've taken this thing that's often used in sport and we're teaching people to use it in their everyday lives. I'm now gonna go into more about the book. Can you define or the audience what the choice point is? Every day we face an endless number of choices and we can measure exactly how many there are. An average that we're aware of, you think it's about 60 choices, do I choose this, do I choose to eat this,

or things that we're like pondering, right? Am I gonna go for that run or am I gonna stay in bed? And most of us, even though we set out for a destination, we're gonna opt for the easier, oh, it's raining, I'm gonna stay in bed today, I'm not gonna get up and exercise. The idea of this choice point that we have a choice, we teach people to use their imagery or their imagination

so that they're more likely to choose what's going to get them closer to the life that they want, to the goal that they want to achieve. Which I love because passion struck is really about intentional behavioral change. And it starts and ends as you and I talked about before. We came on the show with the choices we make and I love Robin Sharma and had the opportunity to interview him and I think he said it better than anyone that your daily

microchoises end up creating a tsunami of greatness or a tsunami of the opposite. And it's so interesting how as you write in the book every day we experience between 6,000 and 60,000 thoughts per day. But it's, as you mentioned, those 60 choices that it all boils down to that really end up defining who we are. And when we put our energy, we may think something's easier in the moment. I'm not gonna speak up in this meeting or I'm not gonna, it's hard to have a difficult conversation with someone or to push myself.

But the consequences of not doing usually lead to a lot of negative chatter in our head, or I should have done this, say, it has this effect on our energy level and then yes, this accumulative effect in life. I have this concept in my book that's coming out in February that I call the pinball life. And I called it that because I think too many people today live in the unconscious or in autopilot. Yes.

And they go throughout their days, letting the game of pinball play them. There are all these distractions in life, just like the bumpers and the sounds and everything else in the game of pinball. And that overtakes the intentional ability to make choices to master the game. And in the book, you write that a choice point is not unconsciousness. It is a conscious thought. And I think that's an important distinction. It's such an important distinction in cognitive behavioral therapy that have people keep thought logs, right?

To write down all their thoughts. Well, that drove people crazy because we can't possibly keep track of 6,000, 60, to write down all their thoughts. Well, that drove people crazy, because we can't possibly keep track of 6,000, 60,000 thoughts. People that go through our program, they often will say, you taught me to quiet the noise. Right, there's so much noise in our world. But who are we? And what are we going to focus on? Because a lot of life is outside of our control. And we can focus on that or we can focus on what we really want, even though maybe hardship to get there and sacrifice to get there. Are we committed? And how are we going to manage these choices?

Yeah, I just want to give a plug out to a gentleman I interviewed last year named Gondapone and he's a Hindu priest but spent 10 years as a Hindu monk and his book is all about the intentional power of focus because he said in that 10 years of being a monk, that was the number one skill that he learned to find your life. So I think it's exactly the same thing that you're saying. And for the person who hasn't picked up this book, you divide it into three different sections. And you kind of lay out those sections

and why you organized it in that way. We started the individual, right? It's a personal journey. We wrote the book as if we were sitting across from you. So the first part is understanding the science of fit, understanding your own motivation, are you committed? We can talk about motivation, which we often say is like a dimmer switch, it can go up and down, but if the commitment's there, commitment is a switch that's on or off. So are you fully committed? And then the mid part of the book is really teaching you how we measure imagery.

You can go to our website and measure it for free with the PSIQ, which is a scientific measure of seven senses. And then train you in it. And then the third part is collective, right? We're not all living on our own little oasis, our island somewhere out in the South Pacific. We are interconnected. So how do we use this in teams?

And the last chapter and the conclusion is really about how we take this to the next level. Together, as a young adult, it was right after college, I started an organization, which is actually where we're doing the book launch in my hometown of Freeport, New York. And I started this not-for-profit with help of my father who's a boat builder, and it's called Operation Splash, and it started with just a few people doing a beach cleanup. And now it's seven chapters, and it's throughout the South Shore

of a Nassau County Long Island. And I can honestly say that my hometown is much cleaner now than it ever was when I was growing up. And that was just one person, two people, and then a collective experience. So that's how we ended the book with. It starts with you, two people, and then a collective experience. So that's how we ended the book with, it starts with you, understanding you, but then now what, what's next? And we hope that next leads to a international day of imagery at the UN. We have a lot of things to clean up in this

world. And we believe that the imagination and innovation is how we're going to get to the solution. we believe that the imagination and innovation is how we're going to get to the solution. I love it and I think that is a great segue into a question I was going to ask you later, but I'm going to ask it now. Okay. And that is what is the power of our imagination and how do we harness it? Uh, well, as Einstein said, a logic will get you from A to B, but imagination will take you everywhere. So when we're stressed, we tend to think in a very limited capacity, the blood flow to our brain is just going into survival mode. But when we imagine, when we get out of that, and that can be casting your eyes at the night sky, it can be remembering a smell, a sound, taste, touch. You can be reading a great novel. But when we get out of our heads and into our bodies, into our senses, we tap into something much bigger than a limited window of thinking.

I wanted to walk through some of the initial aspects of the book, and chapter one really goes into the importance of core values. I have done being a health-oriented podcast, some interviews with behavioral scientists, and also leading medical practitioners. And it is so incredible for me to realize how many people today are unhealthy, and it doesn't have to be that way because it all comes down to the choices that we make in how we're living our lifestyle. And in the book, the information you used that when people rank their core values,

their health is ranked number one above everything else including relationships, family, happiness. Yet on the other side of this, as I was mentioning before, 60% of people suffer from at least one chronic disease. How is this a symptom of today's actions resulting in the same thought, the same excuse, the same lack of progress as tomorrow. And if personal health, yeah, and if personal health is so important,

why do some people opt in, but so many others opt out? Yeah, well core values, we usually start with a list of 60 and ask them to rank them. And they really struggle with that. We want them to know, have you faced with struggle with that. Because we want them to know, have you faced with a choice, what's the most important to you?

And it's true, health, top-sulist, time and time again. But yet, people are not eating well, they're not exercising, they're not taking care of themselves. So it's really interesting, is to why, well, we're wired with all these thoughts we're having. Roughly 80% of them are negative and over 90% of them are the same as the day before. So

most of us are living on autopilot. And we are not really facing the future. We're in survival mode or there's also something called social contagion, so it's where we're hanging out and what we're doing. We tend to take on the behaviors of those around us just subconsciously. But all that being said, you can break the cycle. We have seen people do it. And the amazing thing is, after they do this program, sometimes they make some pretty radical changes in their life.

But they live a life that's more meaningful. Why people rank something and then they don't turn it into action, I think it's just they're a little bit stuck and they just need something that's going to help them consistently show up in their lives. Well, that's an interesting way to look at it, that whole aspect of oftentimes we show up for others, but we don't show up for ourselves. And I think that's a critical thing that more people who listen to this podcast need to understand is oftentimes we get so busy in our lives, we have all these things, but if you don't take those

intentional actions to show up for yourself, nothing's going to change. That's right. That's right. If we're not wired to accept change, right, change is a bit of a threat to our system. So we really have to have a tool, I believe, functional imagery training, and the way that Jonathan Rhodes and I have adapted it for the public. Up until now, it's been an academic field of study. We tried to, in the choice point, make it really like relatable to life. So this is a tool that you can use back by two decades of research that really does override the status quo. And the number one thread throughout all the research is that it builds resiliency. So I've had people say, well, yeah, you're training people to live a life more aligned with who they are

and their goals, but aren't you sending them out into the same stressed out world for the same broken system? Yes, we are, but the evidence is that inner resilience really carries through no matter what system they're going back to. I think that's such an important lesson for people to hear. I was hoping we could take this one step further and maybe you can give the story to the audience about how Fit came about, how it was discovered and what is the link to motivational interviewing and fit? Oh yeah, what a great question. We didn't even prepare that one in advance for you,

but that is probably my favorite thing to answer because there would be no fit without motivational interviewing. There would be no fit without the dedicated research team led by Jackie Andre, John May and David Kavanaugh from the University of Plymouth. They were looking at cravings and why well-intentioned people setting out to give something up. Let's imagine it's drinking. And they really are committed, right? It seemed can motivate it. And they're good for a bit.

But then they get hijacked by a craving. And a craving is sensory-based. It could be the smell, the sound, imagining a taste, or a feeling, the emotion it brings up. And suddenly, these good intentions as commitment is completely hijacked by this craving. It overrides logic and overrides reason. So, they set out to see if they could further understand that

and if they could teach people to use this science of craving. So, put it really simply to teach them to crave a life that they desired, rather than this substance that's taking them down a path that is nothing like the life they desired. What's interesting because I was watching an interview over the weekend of David Bowie, who I didn't know wasn't

alcoholic, and the person who was interviewing him asked, why don't you drink anymore? And he said, because it was absolutely ruining my life. And if I would have continued going down that path, probably wouldn't be speaking with you today, or even if I was speaking to you, it would probably be under much different circumstances because I would have never accomplished nearly as much that I have accomplished by being sober. So thank you for bringing that reminder up.

And thank you for bringing David Boehler up. A little side note, he was once my neighbor. Oh, no kidding. My partner I lived in New York in Nolita and we had free purchases apartment it was getting ready and suddenly there's this some people work for David Bowie doing his sound system. They were coming over and they wanted to make sure that we couldn't hear the music on the other side of the wall. That's how we came to learn that David Bowie was our neighbor. And then we shared an elevator. He had his own elevator eventually, but we shared an elevator.

And Iman had a baby. We had a child also, the same age. So it was an interesting time. The first time I met David Bowie, he helped me carry a pair of skis to the car, which was very kind of him. But I never would have known. It was him. He had a little bean, beany cap on,

heat coat, converse sneakers, jeans. I think he was my heighter a little bit shorter. And just a really gentleman. It's interesting. I was listening to a show and one of the people they interviewed was Mick Jagger and it was a tribute to David Bowie and Mick said that David was probably the most intelligent

and most creative human being he had ever met but he was also one of the most introverted. So you really had to get into his trust circle for him to express his self. Thank you for sharing that story. I just, well remember because he did, he seems shy. And he saw me struggling with these skis and he said, can I give you a hand?

So that was my David Billy moment. Well speaking of stories, one of the stories that you tell in your book and for the listener, they're scattered throughout it, but this was a German cliff diver named Irish Schmitt Bauer. And I was hoping you could illustrate fit by telling her story and how she was able to use it to overcome her fears. I don't know if anyone's ever stood at the edge of a cliff, but the idea of diving off such a thing to me is, I don't know, I have a bit of a fear of heights, but those fearless individuals clipped out as like Iris do it. She had a bad dive. And luckily she didn't injure her body terribly, but it really set her back mentally. As we often do, she replayed this dive in her mind. It was really causing her

a great deal of stress and impacting her idea of how she was on a perform the next time. So she started working with Jonathan Rhodes, my business partner and co-author, and really set out to use these tools to change her screen saver, to change this channel on the dive, to get back into her senses, to use the imagery. She had done so many dives before. So getting her mind off that last dive was really the hurdle. And once she did this, I believe Iris is actually this in Florida, she's top ranked and she has another big dive coming in. So she was able to get past this using imagery so she wasn't stuck on this dive that was plaguing her.

Throughout the book, you talk about the fit model, but I think it is really one of the most cornerstone aspects of the book. And it explains the process of how you merge goals with formal image-year practice. And I was hoping you could tell the audience, and I wish I could put the picture up because it does a great job. But can you tell the audience how it works and the importance of the critical behavior queue? Sure. We like acronyms because they're easy for people to remember. With fit, we use something

called a lab, right? So you'll have your queue beforehand. so a cue could be anything. Ideally, you don't want it to be something that you have in your pocket, and maybe you forgot to put in your pocket. It's something that's innate. It could be a deep breath. It could be a tap on your heart. It could be a tap on your wrist, but it's intentional. It's an intentional cue that activates your imagery so that you can persevere. So that's what a lap is.

So you locate your cue, you activate your imagery, and imagery of putting yourself in the future scenario, typically of what it will feel like when you achieve your goal, and then you persevere. Right. And sometimes we need a slap, which we can get to in a minute. It's two steps more than a lap. We train people and we've trained over 50 individuals from first responders to health coaches and executives and therapists, but they oftentimes want to complicate it. Once you adhere to the simplicity of the model, it works really well. But as humans, we want to dive more into this and less into that, but it really is a quite a simple thing that when delivered in the right way, people remember and they use.

And what we find is they may start using it on one thing, like a dive, like a tennis match, like riding a horse. We teach them that they can use it in other parts of their life. And it's really endless where, how many places you can apply this. And I read in the book, you have a three minute practice that people can use to start getting a better handle of this.

Can you share what that is? You can use lap throughout the day, ideally in the morning, when perhaps you're having a cup of tea, as I'm having now, or you're waiting for your coffee to brew, you can use that for a three minute imagery exercise. And usually it starts with your breath, taking a moment or two to ground into your breath, to feel your feet, and to go through your day. What are the big choices in my day?

You see yourself in that room or on that walk, or having that conversation, and how do I want to navigate that? So you mentally rehearse in those three minutes your day. And not just the power of positive thinking, it's thinking like, what could go wrong, what could go sideways, and how will I handle that? It could be as simple as when the dessert menu comes, what am I gonna do? Because if we leave it up to those in the minute, autopilot decisions, we're gonna go with

the same thing we did the day before. decisions we're going to go with the same thing we did the day before. Well, I think a great thing that that model and exercise could be used for as well is how we're approaching relationships and the conversations that we want to have with family members are a partner or important people at work to bring out more meaning in those daily interactions that we have. of work to bring out more meaning in those daily interactions that we have. Yeah, absolutely. I was speaking to someone earlier this week and we're talking about goals and how his daughter had set this goal and achieved it. And then there was this feeling of like great disappointment because she thought it would be different, right? She thought that there'd be more a feeling of, wow, she really nailed it.

Or there'd be some sort of confidence boost that would come from handing this project in. So there was this huge expectation. And that didn't happen. So it was really like affecting her mood, her attitude, and everything. So he said to her, well, I think it's important that you said another goal right away.

And through a conversation, I said, well, maybe it's really an opportunity to have a conversation around, what do you do in this space where something hasn't met your expectation, rather than immediately setting another goal, immediately setting the bar, right? We say in imagery, we create a space between stimulus and response. Victor Frankl said in Manceurge for a meaning that, in that space is your freedom.

So in the space of conversation, where we don't just have to jump into fix it, well, I better give my daughter help in setting another goal, but instead we really listen. What did you expect it to be like? Maybe what did you learn from this? We can have these deeper conversations instead of just getting back on the treadmill. And it doesn't take that long. You don't have to dwell in that space between.

But it's enough to change the outcome of someone's life where they're like, oh, this isn't going as I planned. But that's okay, because I'm learning from it. So there's so many things that it allows us to do to broaden our mindset, to not get so rigid and our thinking to be more agile and ultimately more resilient. And I think imagining the future is something that we all do, but I think the trick is learning how to make it into a daily habit that is linked with the goals that you want to achieve, like the example that you just gave.

Yes, that is it, and then that shall, John. When we set out to do something, we all have great intentions, much the initial participants in the studies that FIT was born out of. Great intentions, and we're going to do this. We often set really high bars. I was talking to them a few weeks ago. I said, what would it be like to be in the shape that you want to be in? Well, it will feel like it felt when I was 26 years old. And he went into detail of what that was like. And I said, how old are you now? I'm 53. Is that realistic?

No. Okay, so let's really talk about this. Our mind just goes in based on the past, so it's going to be like this. And then it's not like that. And then we feel a sense of huge disappointment which can lead to self-sabotage. It's using these things,

but also anticipating the future is probably going to be different than you think. But having this tool that you can manage it and stay close to who you are, stay close to home, which are your core values. Yeah, so what you described there is how you manage your choice points using Yeah, so what you described there is how you manage your choice points using fit. I love it. Nudging expectation is just a huge thing. We see this with maybe even members of the military. Maybe this can be part of it.

Maybe you're going to come home and feel like you've worked towards something for this country or for freedom or going to be hero. But then maybe something else sets in. It's different than you anticipated. We see this with the Olympians coming back from the Olympics, whether they met older, they didn't. It's like a narrative question of who am I now? So one of the things that we do when someone comes to us with a goal, we also want to say, what's beyond that goal? You're going to be after that goal.

Which are questions people don't really ask themselves and coaches don't ask people until they're already in the throes of, oh my God, who am I now? And that's a harder mountain to climb if you haven't anticipated it. Oh my gosh, yes, it definitely is. And one of the things we haven't talked about, which carries along that entire process is commitment.

And you tell the story in the book and I actually heard you talk about this on the podcast that I was listening to of your father and your older brother crossing the Atlantic in a small, abored powered motorboat. And I wanted to ask what can we learn about commitment from that story and what are four ingredients to fortify your commitment in any circumstance? Yeah, so first don't sit out in a small boat across the Atlantic. It's not a good idea. Yes. Unless you're fully committed, or which my dad was, and then at one point he wasn't, and he had my mom support from the York to like help him personally. I think what we can learn is if it's truly your passion, back to your keyword, then it's going to be your commitment. But if it's somebody else's passion and you're self-sacrificing along the way, it's not going to be the same. So commitment, again, it's a light switch, right? So really be clear on what that commitment is.

And surround yourself with people who are going to also support that goal. And this is something we talk about too, which also I haven't seen many programs that do it. But what is your point where you're going to say, that's it, like, I'm out because the costs outweigh the benefits. So what's your walkaway point? And knowing that in advance. It's very different. A walkaway point isn't like heat at the moment. Like, I've had it. That's it. I'm done. A walkaway point you anticipate. If this is costing me my relationship with my kids, if this is costing me my relationship with whomever in your life, then you might say,

I don't want to do it. So commitment really comes down to the ingredients, having a single-pointed goal. Right? That's important because if we have too many goals, we're not going to hit any of them. But a single-pointed goal, whether it's crossing the Atlantic or as my neighbor and Miami just did, climbing Mount Everest, then you're going to have to make some sacrifices. You're going to have to give up some things

for that single-pointed goal. And number two is making sure that you have support, right? So are there people that you're going to call. Number two is making sure that you have support, right? So are there people that you're going to call? We work with this when we work with teams. Who can you call on your team when you're having a moment when you need a hand? So that's really important. And bind your core and strengthen it with imagery. And that's through the practices like lap and we can get into slap and what that sounds for. And trust who is it? Do you trust yourself? Do you trust members of your team? Having that level of trust, I've seen it time and time again with great leaders who you think, wow, they have so much intellect and they

really know how their vision, but then they can't trust anyone around them. So that's a huge detriment to everyone's confidence. So it's a huge part. And trusting yourself, knowing that you're going to take care of you and take care of your team. I wanted to take commitment one step further and I know you and Jonathan work with many elite organizations and one of them are various special forces units. How can a, whether it be a British Army Commando, US Army Ranger or Navy SEAL, learn how to push, ask that moment that they want to quit. And how can we apply that if you're a listener? imagery will transcend the point where you want to quit. So to highlight this, and we talk about it in the book,

in the British Royal Commando training, one of the final acts is like a grueling course in the British Moors. And this is a cold windy more with these davids that could be snakes in there. You fall in one at night, you can twist your ankle, break your leg, and it's usually cold. Sometimes it's rainy, it's a often raining in this part of the world. And at any moment, you know that you can quit, right? You've been told and you've seen it. You see it from time to time,

there's a minivan with hot chocolate. And at any time, you feel like you didn't have a way to take to be a commando, you just tap out and you go to that minivan. And if you're contemplating the minivan all the time, which some of us might be in quitting. Well, it's gonna be more comfortable like in sit and have that hot chocolate.

But what we found with the commandos is that if they really know they're why, I'm doing this because, because I wanna be like my uncle Joe, because I wanna live this like of a commando, because it ties into my values. And then you know that they're going to be hard times, right? There's going to be hard times like being on this more and having to run for two hours

and getting to your destination. And the sergeant says, and you think you're done. And they say, now turn back and run home. And for some who are thinking about the minivan, they're going to say, that's it, I'm done. I didn't anticipate that we're going to have to run back. I thought it was done. I quit. This really was one of the soldiers,

commendals and training thought, he uses imagery. I know, I knew that they were going to throw something at me. I know it's not easy to get through this. I almost laughed to myself like, huh, okay, this is the trick. Now I'm going to have to run back. And he thought about his family and he thought about who he was doing this for. And he started running. It turned out it wasn't two hours back. It was just another mile and then they were done. So they're playing with their minds. Can they handle this? Can they handle that? They have to run two more hours, but it turned out it was just one more mile. And so how many times do we give up on ourselves when we are so close to the finish line? Right? So whether you focus on the quitting,

which could be a warm minivan without chocolate, or you focus on the destination that you want, that's up to you. And what we found with the soldiers and with other high performing individuals is that when they tap into their Y and the imagery associated with that why, they can transcend pain. And that's fascinating. We don't want them to transcend too much pain because sometimes that's dangerous. But you have this ability to transcend human suffering. Well, that was powerful. Joe, thank you for sharing that very important message. You have brought slap up a number of times. I was going to get to it.

Okay. So sometimes we do feel pressure, but it's a slight amount of pressure or it's normal things that are occurring where you can use the lab process that we talked about. But then there are other times when you're under more stress and you feel fatigued and the negative thoughts are just stacking up and you need a stronger reset. What is the slap and how can you use a slap to reset?

I like slap so much because I have a lot of negative chatter. It's just my nature. I'm an overthinker. Right. I think about things way too long. I can have analysis paralysis. If I find myself in that, and I know that I'm wired to think negatively, and I know that this can set up a habit loop, using slap is you stop.

And you might like take a deep breath. You're going to use the lot. So you're interrupting this negative loop cycle. You stop, you locate your cue, you activate your imagery, you plan, and you park unwanted thoughts. So that last pee is really important because if we say stop the negative thought, we're going to have resistance. It's like telling a toddler to stop doing something as opposed to redirecting. It's much more powerful to redirect. And when we park them, it's like, okay, I'm having a thought in the middle of this tennis

match and I'm having a thought that is disruptive. I'm going to park it and visit it later. And the visit it later is really important because you don't wanna avoid the things that you've parked or they'll sneak up upon you in weird ways. So you really do park it and then make time later when you're not in the heat of the battle or the heat of the game to visit it.

I wonder why that popped came up, right? So the idea of a slap and you're literally like slapping yourself out of this trance that you can get in of negative thinking or negative chatter. It happens to the Martina Navarchalovas in the world that toss where you toss in the ball up and you're about to hit the racket, hit the ball with the racket and you get it wrong. Well, you get it wrong once and then you overthink it and then you get it wrong again. And then maybe it carries on for several games. But if you use the slap, it's a very powerful reset in the moment.

And what is the key to using the cue? Because that sounds like it's one of the most critical aspects of the whole process. So a Q has to be easy and accessible and on you, right, or part of your daily. We invite people to play with them and see what works, right. Try them out, be curious about it. So one of my cues is the door to my office. So that's a cue where I activate my imagery of my best self and who I want to show up that day. I'm crossing this threshold. A cue, again, it can be the teak headl in the morning,

the coffee. It can be holding, touching something like that. When I was a rider, it was gathering the reins. Now I'm a rower, so it's a orlock. These things are in your day, everyday things, brushing your teeth, but that works for some people, it doesn't work for others. Another powerful one is the moment your feet touch the floor in the morning when you get out of bed, that's a really powerful moment to use imagery. But you're going to find what works for you and use that.

And be intentional, just like with the commitment. Have a single-wintered goal. You're using keys throughout your day, but there are so many goals that it's like almost causing too much chatter, but be really intentional with it. And then what is the dark side of the slap? And then what is the dark side of the slap? Well, that's when you can persevere through a too much pain, like a broken ankle, which we've seen. Or you get so single-minded that you lose sight of things. And that's why it's really important to have a good coach or good mentor or somebody who's going to help you keep a sense of perspective.

That is so important. And then the third portion of your book goes into how can you use that for teams and you all call it the applied imagery for motivation. What is it and how does that work? Yeah, so aim is something that we came up with and it works differently, right? First, you have to do the individual training to understand how imagery works on the individual, but having team values, having team imagery so that you're all using your energy focused on this single pointed goal. Who you're going to call when you're struggling, right? So being able to anticipate these things. So one

of the first groups we ever used it with in a non-military, non-sports setting was a Fortune 100 company here in the US and they said, okay, well, we'll be the first. I need a leader. What she found was that there was such a sense of synergy after they were all using this imagery practice and using common imagery in common terms. That it required a lot less management of people. There was a feeling of interconnectedness. There was a feeling of interconnectedness. And this leader actually wound up leaving and going on to a new company. And when I followed up with the team a few months later about how they were doing, it's

like they said they never could have managed that transition as well without having the training and functional imagery training because they were able to be resilient. They were able to anticipate what was around the bend. They were able to act as a team, not just in individual silos. Well, I think that is so important for my experience in the corporate world because it's so easy to get into those different silos instead of working on something as a united front. So I think this is so important for people to use in the workplace and their relationships

and other aspects of their lives. So I love how you expanded it beyond just the personal use. And then you started talking about this earlier in the show, but where do you hope to see this go in the future even beyond team environments? I hope it's like Operation Splash that it just grows. It keeps the ripple effects. A lot of times people don't see our scars.

They just see what's on the outside or these wounds. I think that there's a vulnerability that they bring up and sometimes we try and cover them up or overcompensate for it. So what I hope that our work does is to remind people what's important when they come to the end of their days, how do they want to have lived their life and not just thinking about this in the end of your days but thinking about it now. And then I hope that it teaches people that in their imagination, there's this incredible tool that you don't have to download,

but you do have to pay attention to it. And you do have to use it like a muscle that you'd use at the gym. And that it will help you transcend whatever moment you're in and stay in a better version of yourself. So I hope that they remember that they have the ability to wipe the noise and change the channel that they're on. If they're on the channel of quitting and thinking about minivan with the hot chocolate, that's okay, but they have the ability if they want to change their channel.

Okay, then Joe, my last question would be, I am going to put links and everything to the book in the show notes. But if a listener is on here today and they want to take a deliberate choice into trying to use this framework in their future. What is the best starting point for them? I'd say to get the book and then if they want a coach or they want to be trained by us in about a month or

two months time we'll have some virtual online courses but I'd say it really starts with the book. I will leave them with a challenge, a choice point challenge. And it's simple, but it's a little bit difficult to practice. So if you find yourself today, after you listen to this podcast, triggered by something that makes you angry, something that makes you frustrated, whether it yourself or somebody else, we invite you something that makes you frustrated, whether it yourself or somebody else. We invite you to use a cue. In this case, a cue is going to be a deep breath, a really nice deep inhale and a nice long exhale. And to respond in a way that is aligned with who you are. Just create a little bit more space between being triggered.

A little bit more space that gives you the option of acting intentionally. Whether it's in a difficult conversation, or whatever it may be, giving yourself a hard time. Take that bra, use it as a cue take that bra, use it as a cue to tap into something that transcends that moment. Well, Joe, thank you so much for joining us today. What a great book. And I really love this framework and hope myself to apply it more because I have used imagery throughout my career, but never in the exact way that you guys present it. So I hope it's something that I can take further myself. I'd love to work more with you on this and to keep this conversation going because I think from what I've read about you, there's just so much that we have an alignment starting

with passion. And then also you've obviously persevered. You have transcended a number of things. But now you can use this tool in something small and then expand it larger, just building upon what's made you stronger in this life and even getting stronger still, while being vulnerable, while allowing yourself to be human. Well, I think that's the hardest thing for many of us to do.

Yeah. Well, thank you so much for joining us and thank you for putting this great piece of work out into the universe. Now, you're very welcome. It's a pleasure. I thoroughly enjoyed that interview with Joe Grover, and I wanted to thank Joe,

Heshap Books, and Ashen Ballard, for the honor and privilege of having her appear on the show. Links to all things Joe will be in the show notes at Passion Struct. Please use our website links if you purchase any of the books from the guests that we feature on the show. All proceeds go to supporting the show. Videos are on YouTube at both John Armiles and Passion Struck Clips.

As I mentioned at the beginning, you can now find us on the AMFM 247 National Broadcast. Every Monday and Friday from 5 to 6 p.m. links will also be in the show notes. Avertiser deals and discount codes are all in one convenient place at PassionStruck.com slash deals. You can find me on LinkedIn and sign up for my LinkedIn newsletter, or you can find me everywhere else on social media at John Armiles where I post daily doses of inspiration. Please go and check them out. You're about to hear a preview of the Passion Shark podcast interview that I did with New York Times best-selling author Chris Carr, which is about her new upcoming book which releases September 19th. I am not a morning person. This is a transformational episode about love, loss,

and all the life-changing insights we receive when we embrace them. Healing isn't linear. Grief isn't linear. Recovery is not linear. There's also no timeline. That was so important for me because it helped me relax. I'm a very driven person. Like, I like control, I like to get it done. I was like, whoa, this isn't linear. I'm orbiting. And with each orbit, we pass through a deeper layer of meaning. And what I write about in the book is I believe that the mechanism of healing is that orbiting.

Is that just going through it? And every time you learn a little bit more about yourself, and maybe you're a little kinder to yourself. The fee for the show is that you share it with family or friends when you find something that's useful or interesting. If you know someone who is really interested in learning more about the choice point, then definitely share today's episode with them. The greatest compliment that you can give us is to share the show with those that you love and care about.

In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so that you can live what you listen. And until next time, go out there and become Ash and Strong. you