Passion Struck with John R. Miles - John Kim and Vanessa Bennett on How to Find Love That Lasts EP 230

Episode Date: December 20, 2022

Today on Passion Struck, I interview family therapists John Kim and Vanessa Bennett, who reveal the honest truth about why it's so hard to find love and the keys to creating a lasting relationship. We discuss their new book: It's Not Me, It's You: Break the Blame Cycle. Relationship Better. Purchase It's Not Me, It's You: https://amzn.to/3jfOcMs (Amazon Link) What I Discuss with John Kim and Vanessa Bennett About Finding Love That Lasts. After years of failed relationships, John and Vanessa have learned some hard lessons about love. In this candid interview, they share the secrets to finding love that has helped them in the past and can help you too. Don't despair; love is out there. John and Vanessa share their insights about love and how to find it. They provide tips and advice on how to break free and find intentional love. Implementing these tips may not be easy, but it may just be the key to a successful relationship future! Learn about the challenges and triumphs of their love stories, and discover how you can overcome your own personal obstacles to a happy and fulfilling relationship.  Full show notes and resources can be found here: https://passionstruck.com/john-kim-and-vanessa-bennett-find-lasting-love/  Brought to you by American Giant. --► For information about advertisers and promo codes, go to: https://passionstruck.com/deals/  --► Prefer to watch this interview: https://youtu.be/UkqJH2XrtFE  Like this show? Please leave us a review here -- even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter or Instagram handle so we can thank you personally! --► Subscribe to Our YouTube Channel Here: https://www.youtube.com/c/JohnRMiles Want to find your purpose in life? I provide my six simple steps to achieving it - passionstruck.com/5-simple-steps-to-find-your-passion-in-life/ Did you miss my interview with NYU Stern School marketing professor Scott Galloway? Listen to episode 218 on why America is adrift and how to fix it. ===== FOLLOW ON THE SOCIALS ===== * Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/passion_struck_podcast * Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/johnrmiles.c0m  Learn more about John: https://johnrmiles.com/ 

coming up next on the passion struck podcast. So many people come to us as clients and they're like 40s usually and it's like I'm unhappy. I don't know why I've checked all the boxes. I've done all the things, quote unquote, right. Why am I miserable and so often it's because I've done everything I should do. Yeah. And also I want to say that what you went through doesn't stop because when we get into a relationship, it shouldn't stop. We're always growing, evolving, and exploring self. We change our partner changes, the relationship changes. So it's not like you do all this work when you're single, and then you meet someone, and then you just stop.

Yeah, and all that stuff. A lot of people do that, and I think that's where they drop the ball. Welcome to PassionStruck. Hi, I'm your host, John Armiles. And on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips, and guidance of the world's most inspiring people and turn their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you.

Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself. If you're new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays. We have long form interviews, the rest of the week with guest-ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries, and athletes. Now let's go out there and become PassionStruck. Hello everyone and welcome back to episode 230 of Passion Struct. Recently ranked by FeedSpot is one of the top 40 most inspirational podcasts of 2022.

And thank you to each and every one of you who come back weekly to listen and learn, how to live better, be better, and impact the world. If you're new to the show, we are so happy that you've joined us. And if you would like to just introduce this podcast to a friend or family member, and we so appreciate it when you do that. We now have episode starter packs, which are collections of our fans' favorite episodes that we've organized into convenient topics

that give any new listener a great way to get acquainted to everything we do here on the show. You can either go to Spotify or passionstark.com, slash starter packs to get started. I also wanted to say, thank you so much for your continued support of the show and for all the ratings and reviews that you give us. They mean so much to growing our popularity, but more importantly, increasing the passion-struck community so that we can provide daily doses of

inspiration, hope, meaning, and connection. Thank you again so much. Today's interview is a bit different from the ones that I normally do here on the show. I will be interviewing two therapists, John Kim and Vanessa Bennett, who in their brand new book, it's not me, it's you, analyze their own relationship to help untangle the common and frustrating barriers that many individuals face on the road to happy, loving, and rewarding partnerships. We discuss various topics, including the keys to creating proactive, durable relationships, the barriers that hinder the development and maintenance of successful relationships. The ways that couples can break down these barricades

both separately and together. The surprising truth that falling in love is more about you than your partner. And why roots don't grow from wishful thinking. They grow in the soil of communication, curiosity, patience, and understanding. John Kim is a licensed therapist and life coach, best-selling author and host of the Angry Therapist podcast. Vanessa Bennett is a holistic psychotherapist, as well as a codependency expert.

She co-hosts the cheaper-than-therapy podcast. Thank you for choosing PassionStruck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life.. Let that journey begin. I am so ecstatic today to welcome John Kim and Vanessa Bennett to the PassionStruck podcast. Welcome, John and Vanessa. Thank you, John. Yeah, thank you for having us. Well, I'm sure if we're going to talk about relationships and talk about this incredible new book that you both wrote together, the audience would probably love to get an understanding of how YouTube met and what was going on at that point in time with each one of you.

Yeah, great question. It was interesting because we met on a blind date and these days with swipe culture, people usually go on blind dates or meet in person. So that was old school. And I can say for me, I was at a time in my life where I was trying to be single on purpose. I've been in many relationships, but I haven't had a lot of single time. So I was trying to do all the things that I missed out on and all the stories that I hear about people and single in their 20s, like all the debauchery and waking up with people they don't like and the drugs and three sims and all that. I was trying to quote unquote, so my oaths

when I met Vanessa. You're welcome. Yeah, on my side of the story, it's interesting because I guess I was in a bit of a different place. Like I was single for most of my 20s living in New York City. So I did the sewing of the wild oats and I had gotten out of a long relationship a few years before John and then I had gotten out of something that was very short but very intense and had cut me off at the knees if you will, maybe about six months before him. And so I was really in this place where I was like, I am not gonna date anybody anymore

unless I feel like they are, I guess, what? All in. All in. Well, all in, but more so, I wanted to make sure they were on the same page with me as far as growth, evolution, like a hunger for a deeper, more conscious type of relationship. And I remember my mom saying, you're really starting to limit your dating pool.

And I was like, I don't care. I'd rather be single at this point. Anyway, so a friend of mine had been following him on Instagram for a long time. And I had like every once in a while seen his stuff. But for some reason on one day, he posted something and it intrigued me. And I remember just for some reason being like, huh, and I went to his page and I just started doing the light Instagram stocking. Well, not really light.

I was stocking and going deep. And there was something that just, I don't know, happened. I called it like a knowing and I sent it to my girlfriend and I said, so he appears to be single. I find him very attractive. He lives in LA. We have a mutual friend.

I'm going to date this guy. And she was like, okay, he has, I don't know at the time, like 70,000 followers. I was like, no, I'm gonna date this guy. And it unfolded very serially at mutual friend of ours. I didn't even ask him if he knew him and to hook it up, that was my plan. And before I even had the chance,

he basically said, hey, I have this friend. And I was like, oh, really? But I call it a knowing, and I say this in the book because it just kind of hit me. And it was just this, oh, no, like this is the guy I'm going to do. I didn't know that he was going to be the guy that I settled down with here. Quotes. But I definitely knew there was something there without even ever meeting him. So we were definitely in different places of our lives, but it was it felt synchronistic. It felt bigger than us. Yeah, I wasn't looking for anything. Yeah.

So we just went on a blind date. I was looking for her butt because she had it covered with a sweater. And so I thought she was attractive. We got leftovers, but on accident, we switched them. And she's a vegetarian, I mean, and we use that as a link into the next date. I think he uses that as a link into the next.

OK, I use that as way to to meet again because she had my meatball. I had her veggies. I think he might have done that on purpose. It's like a woman leaves her underwear at the guy's place. I mean, it wasn't that extreme. It was just some vegetables. Well, John, I can empathize with you or see exactly where you're coming from because I got married when I was in my early 20s and came out of a 20 plus year marriage. And I felt the same way you did because I went right from the Naval Academy to being in the military to getting married and unlike Vanessa, I didn't have that point in my life to do all those things. So then, would you sing go at 40?

40, 44. Yeah. That's how old you are when you were at school. Yeah. So what did you do? What did you do when you were free? I didn't do anything for the first six months. And I didn't date anyone. I didn't drink. I just wanted to feel the wrong motions from it. And I was trying to learn what went wrong, how I could be a better parent, a better partner

going forward. I think in many ways, I was trying to put all the blame on myself when we all know it's never just one direction. Right. There's two people always after that, I did the colossal mistake of also not only going on a blind date, but starting to date her for what turned out to be six or seven months. And in retrospect, she was a great girl, but just jumping right from a relationship into a relationship was absolutely the wrong thing to do. And then I jumped into a relationship after that. And then after all that happened, I finally just decided I have to just take some time to myself and really get to know myself and live with myself because until I truly know this person who's now

on the other side of this relationship and know what I want, I'm never going to be able to find a person. So I was two years into really purposely not trying to date anyone, not even looking. And I met my current partner over three years ago at a swim party where we just both happen to be there. And unlike you, John, I did get to see her butt and that's probably what. How sealed the deal was the magnet and probably what. Help seal the deal. That was the magnet, the draw.

That was the question. I think the draw was her smile at first. It's just one of these smiles that can light up a room. The butt healthy. So when you're single, so you didn't get into much debauchery, did you sew any oats or you just went on a journey, an interjourney with self and then you met the person who was now No, I went down the path that many people who have come out of a long-term marriage do and I went through Exploring and I started dating people. I would have never before have ever thought about dating

Just because I was so worried that I'd put myself in a certain box with my ex that I just wanted to test things out and see am I not looking in the right direction because I have this preconceived notion of the person I'm supposed to be with. That was an interesting journey and I learned a lot about myself, had some phenomenal experiences through it, had some not so great experiences, but feel like I grew a lot through it. And I'm now on the other side of it, a much better partner and parent than everything else from what I've learned.

Nice. Yeah. I like that idea of having this almost awareness that you have even put yourself into a box at all, right? Because I think so many of us don't question that. We don't question the preconceived idea of who we quote unquote should be with, what our lives should look like, right? And we just do it.

And then we can't figure out why we're miserable, whatever unfulfilled, right? So many people come to us as clients and they're like 40s usually. And it's I'm unhappy. I don't know why I've checked all the boxes. I've all the things quote unquote why am I miserable and so often it's because I've done everything I should do right but not the things that I actually wanted to do or I didn't do any self exploration or any of the things that you were just talking about yeah yeah and also I want to say that what you went through doesn't stop because when we get into a relationship it shouldn't stop we're always always growing, evolving and exploring self.

We change our partner changes, the relationship changes. So it's not like you do all this work when you're single and then you meet someone and then you just stop. Yeah, a lot of people do that. I think that's where they drop the ball. I agree. Well, I want to get a lot more into that. But before I do, I had one more question about the two of you.

And that is, I find that oftentimes, it's a trip that you go on together that can be the make it or break it. And I heard there was an interesting trip you guys took to Costa Rica, but John, you didn't really understand what went on until a little bit afterwards. Yeah, I was just trying to broke it for us, not make it, not make it. Funny how traveling I'll do that, right? Yeah, I had an opportunity to go to Costa Rica to scout some retreat locations.

Just started dating Vanessa, like maybe one or two dates. Four months. Four months, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I wouldn't have gone with you to Costa Rica after one or two dates. Yeah, I thought, I don't wanna go alone, I'll bring her, but in my mind, it was more of a business trip. I think I minimized it. I didn't see it

as that big of a deal. I think in Vanessa's mind, it meant something more. And then when I was there, I was in my head. I noticed our differences. I was panicking. I was in and out. I was unsure. And of course, that activated a lot in her. Yeah, John still has this thing where he will be acting a certain way. He doesn't really have any kind of understanding that it's very obvious. Like he has no poker face at all, even back then. He still does no poker face. And so I was there in a whole other country without my support system.

And suddenly he was acting weird. He had pulled inside. He was doing a little hot cold dance. And I remember it was the first time I had actually cried in front of him because this had already gone on, I think maybe twice before this back and forth, kind of. And I just said to him, maybe when we get back, we should end this. And this was after a day of being in the jungle, messaging my friends over WhatsApp, this guy, he says one thing, he acts another way, all these things. And we finished out the trip and it ended up being an okay trip, mostly because I'm a master chameleon and people pleaser and I can compartmentalize things and pretend like everything's fine when it's not,

which is something I've been doing a lot of therapy on. But when we got back from Costa Rica, that was the moment where I really said to him, listen, you got a shit or get off the pot. I'm not doing this with you anymore. I know I'm awesome. I know what I bring to the table. If you don't want it, that's fine. I'm not making you, but I need to know because I can't do this. It doesn't feel safe for me. And so, yeah, I gave him almost an ultimatum in a way. So besides the decision that you got over this event and both decided you wanted to go forward with this relationship, what really made you consider this to be a journey that was worth taking? I know for me, it was again, it was like I saw John as somebody who shared a hunger for growth and evolution and having that more elevated type of relationship that I was looking for. So in a sense, I looked at him and I saw

somebody that I could grow with and that was really important to me. But I don't know, John, for you, it was a little different, right? Because you were so ambivalent in the beginning. Yeah, I know this sounds weird because my answer is going to sound simple, but it's deeper than this. But I saw a woman. I felt I've met someone who can take ownership, who can process things, who had a maturity about her. I felt like this could have legs if we really rolled our sleeves up and started working on this.

Well, I think that all is a great backdrop to maybe expelaning for the audience because we all have different ideas of what a healthy relationship is. But as you guys think about it and as you coach people in your sessions, what do you think creates a healthy, lasting relationship? I think first, and this is what many people eyes or don't realize because we put so much weight on chemistry and attraction, right?

And then that tends to lead us to our decisions. There has to be a foundation of soil, meaning people have to have the ability to Create a safe space as they say people have to have the ability to look inward to take ownership, right? If you don't have people doing this, the relationship can be very surfacey, but it could also be very finger pointing, very blaming, and those turn into patterns. And then eventually over time, the plane goes down. So without that safe foundation, without the ability to just take care of your own shit and have hard conversations, I don't think you can build a relationship. Yes, safety. I think all that is safety, right? It's like one has to feel safe to express things,

to be heard, to fight because you're going to fight. Then on top of that, obviously, the communication skills to even fight, which we're not usually taught. Most of us don't come out of our households growing up knowing how to fight, some do, but very few, fairly. And so safety and communication, I think, go so like hand in hand, right?

Yeah, if we were to number it would be safety, communication, and that includes self-expression. Yeah. A lot of people are afraid to express how they really feel. Or are they putting your point? Yeah, and then the third thing is fighting without fighting. How to fight without fighting. Yeah, owning your ship.

Well, I want to get into that a little bit later, but John, I'm going to turn this back to you because you just brought up self-awareness. Why is self-understanding the fuel needed to keep a relationship growing? I think that's where truth starts. And if you don't start with truth with anything, then you're building on sand. So being honest with yourself, where you're at, how you work, why you do the things you do that is generally awareness of self-awareness. If you don't have that information and you're just going through life based on reactions, I don't think you can build a solid relationship, but also the relationship won't hit the higher

notes. It won't be meaningful. I think think, because a lot of people are in relationships and they just go through, they wake up, they have to go to work, they have sex, it's a lot of kind of going through the motions of one, but I'm not interested in that. So to have a deep meaningful relationship where the relationship actually causes you to evolve and grow, you have to be introspective. Yeah, I was just talking to my partner the other day

and in the free plus years we've been together I can't believe what we've had to weather not only COVID but my younger sister came down with pancreatic cancer her dad came down with throat cancer then lung cancer then Hurricanes and this and that and kids going to college and so I Know sometimes people get into these relationships and they don't really face any challenges for a long time and then it hits and it can break you up.

In our case, we've had challenges all along that I think could have pulled us away but I think it's made us some more stronger union. Why do you find when people face these challenging situations it often leads to demise and what suggestions would you give the audience on how you can attack that a different way? I think what I see a lot of times is when we're thrown into something that almost like elicits that fight or flight response on us, right? Like the state of panic.

For many of us, we revert back to childhood versions of ourselves. For many of us, we go into a place of attack mode. We go into a place of defender self mode. It doesn't feel safe. And so we lose the ability to be vulnerable. All of these things, even if you've done the work, air quotes, right? Like even if you've done the work to be vulnerable and express yourself, when we're under this kind of pressure by big life events like this, it's hard to hold onto that for many of us. And so I think that

what I've experienced in relationships where you come out stronger is number one, not personalizing the other person's kind of response to the panic or to whatever's happening in their life, right? So say, for example, your partner's father obviously got diagnosed with cancer and suddenly she's like pulling away from you and she's trying to take space and all of a sudden she's not meeting your needs in the same way that she was before. A lot of people will personalize that and it actually takes somebody with a lot of self-awareness to say, this actually isn't about me. She's going through a lot right now

I can't expect her to act in this relationship the same way that she always has maybe I can't make it about me and actually turn it around on her and think about What can I do for this person? What can I do that is just completely in service of her and of this relationship. But I'm almost expecting something in return in that moment. That's really hard. And that takes a lot of work. But in my experiences at therapists, couples who are able to do that for each other in those tough moments usually come out the other side stronger. But again, I'll say at the 10th time, it's hard. Yes.

By the way, if you haven't noticed, I'm a short class and Vanessa is a wine glass. My answer is going to be much shorter than that. Every challenge brings resistance. And when we have a resistance, if you are not on a journey of wanting to grow, there's a reaction to that resistance, right? And so with reactions that stunts growth, people who are self-aware and interested in a better version of themselves, they lean into that resistance.

And so I feel like resistance is where the road forks. And every challenge, whether it's physical, whether it's relationship, whether any challenge, like you lose your job, whatever it is, there's going to be this resistance to it. And if you look inward and figure out why you're resisting, and then you start there, there's growth on the other side. I think most people react to the resistance instead of respond. I would like to say that your answer was just as long as mine. Thank you. But it was more potent. Well, a follow-on to that and maybe Vanessa using your experience. What happens in the case where your partner is very empathetic and very caring and the type who

gives a lot of love but needs it in return and yet you are completely different. It's hard for you to process emotions like that. What are some of the best tips you could give a person for handling that type of situation? So tips for the person who's similar to me as a bit more avoidant if we're talking the way that they respond. Yeah, there's a dance that we all have to do. It is very common for the more avoidant to be drawn to the more anxious and vice versa. I do believe that so much of that has to do with our souls and intrinsic desire for growth, actually. And so if we found people that were just like us in every way, we wouldn't be challenged as often as if we found somebody who was different

because that's a mirror. And I think for the more avoidant person in the dynamic, a lot of times it's two things. It's one speaking up, even when you don't want to speak up. So for a lot of people who have this more avoidant tendency, you get into this whole like, it's not worth it. I'm not going to rock the boat. I'll just take care of it myself. We're very good at talking ourselves out of why we should actually talk to the partner in front of us. And so for a lot of us, it's like just say the thing, no matter how hard, no matter how uncomfortable, no matter how stupid you feel like you might look, even if you have to write

it down first, that's totally fine, but you need to say the thing. Like, period, I don't care what you got to do to get there. You got to say the thing. And then, secondarily, becoming very aware of how your body responds in moments of your partner actually seeking closeness, seeking connection. Because for many of us who do fall more of the avoid inspectorum, that bodily response is one of pulling away, right? It's one of needing to protect of putting up a wall, even body

language, arms get crossed, shoulders pull back, right? Noticing and becoming aware of that. And then if you can in the moments, allow yourself to breathe and then force yourself to lean in. It, the body is really important because it tells us so much more than our brain can ever be aware of. So if when your body wants to pull back, you actually breathe into the process of leaning forward,

that in itself can start to break and change habits, right? We're talking about somebody who you should be safe with. So this isn't somebody that you technically should have to pull away from. And so I'm assuming that we want to do the work to alter those behaviors. But I'd like to hear it from John's perspective because he's probably sitting on the opposite side of this.

Well, as the anxious in the dynamic, and how would you respond to my question was around when somebody who's got the more anxious, how do I respond to that? So I guess vice versa. My answer is self soothing. So as an anxious attachment style or someone with that kind of attachment style, I'm holding on to her leg. I'm wanting her to tell me that I'm attractive and sexy. And if I don't get it, I feel alone. I feel undesired. And that's when my anxious anxiety comes up. And so I have to know how much of it is truth, meaning maybe she needs to give me the

whatever the validation complements, scratching my back, whatever. And how much of it is on me? How much of it is because the sky is falling in my own head, not in real life, right? If that's the case, then I need to self-soothe. I need to do whatever it takes to realize that nothing is wrong and that I could take care of myself and not put it on her. I want to put an addendum on what I said to and say that it is also really important that we respect our self-boundaries, right? It is a bit of a dance where I need to lean in even when it feels uncomfortable, but also there

are times when I need to just simply say, I don't feel like leaning in right now. I'm overwhelmed, I'm flooded, I need space, I need to have a day alone, whatever that thing is, and then here's the kicker. It's okay that he's upset. I don't have to fix that for him. I can allow him to be upset, but still say, I need to do this for myself. And I think that's a really sticky dynamic in many relationships, which is, I am anticipating that he'll be upset.

And so I'm not going to say or do the thing that feels truthful to me in order to not rock the boat. But then what happens is that I feel put upon resentful, et cetera. And I see that dynamic so frequently in our relationship, but also in so many couples that I've worked with. It is okay for me to be upset, but I will change the locks on the door. Well, a common theme that kind of runs across your whole book is that daily choice is so important to having a lasting relationship. And this whole podcast is really about how do you create an intentional life?

And I've had a ton of behavioral scientists on the show who all say it's the choices that you make in the mic remnants of your life. And I know my partner and I say we love each other a lot, but I think what matters more is we often just say to each other, I choose you. Why is this daily choice so important for building a lasting relationship? Because I think a lot of people think that love is given. I think we have expectations of people think that love is given. I think we have expectations. We think that if you are my girlfriend, boyfriend, husband, wife, whatever,

that there's some kind of entitlement and there is possession, right? And the daily choice releases some of that, right? puts more weight on today and me choosing you today, not on the promise, not on the ring, not on forever. And all those things are romantic and sexy. And of course, I'm a hopeless romantic. I love those words as well, but I think they could also be dangerous

because then it puts a lot of pressure and expectation on the relationship. One day at a time, today I love you. Yeah. It doesn't mean I'm not gonna love you tomorrow. Let's just focus on today. No, I really like that, John. I say a lot of times that in general, we've been taught

that relationships are very transactional, which is what you said. It's because your mind you owe me X Y and Z somebody recently, I came to who it was. Some influencer or somebody I follow online said that they're married, but they said they've made it very clear and they continue to make it very clear to each other. That the number one thing is this happy and fulfilling. And they, I think they said like once a quarter, basically like a business meeting, they sit down and they say, are you happy and fulfilled? And if you're not, let's talk about why, let's see if we can address it. And if it's not addressable, then essentially, it's like, we're free to be honest about that and say, I'm no longer happy and fulfilled in this. But

to your point, the promise isn't, yeah, but you owe me because you said you loved me. So I think that it's really powerful. Okay, I think that's great advice. And I have seen a lot of friends, I'm sure you've both seen a lot of people who are unsuccessful in relationships, but are constantly blaming the other person. And I know I'm as guilty of this as anyone else. Why is it, or I guess I

should say, what is it that makes loving someone else so hard? And it really comes down to continuously tearing down and rebuilding the relationship that you have with yourself that really sits at the core of this. I think the hardest thing about a relationship and any relationship, the relationship you have with your family, friend, your partner is ownership, taking ownership. It's rare. It's hard. It means you have to look into the mirror. It's so much easier to just estate your fault. Here's what you need to do or what you need to fix. So that's usually our default. That's usually from our defense or fear or whatever. But to say, hey, listen, this is what I did. This is what I need to work on. That's really hard to do. Talk about safety building too. I mean, it makes the other person feel,

again, any relationship, not just romantic. It makes the other person feel so safe when you can say, and listen, we're not saying own at all, because to your point, in the very beginning of this conversation, John, there's always two people, right? Don't own more than your share, but you need to own something because you were a part of whatever this dynamic is.

And so clearly there's something you can own. It feels so safe when somebody can come to you and say, hey, here's the part that I owed. Here's what I did. It makes the other person almost immediately put down their walls and then want to also step into the place of, thank you for saying that here's also what I can own.

And then you've got two people really coming at it from a space of love and communication and not walls and fingers. Yeah. And if you find that the pattern is, hey, here's where I'm going to own and your partner says, that's right. Good. That's right. You better own that shit.

Yeah. What did I tell you? Yeah. See, I was right. And if that's a pattern, then that relationship is lopsided and probably has no legs. It's like a piscons in an engine. Like there needs to be two piscons pumping for the engine to move forward. If it's just one piston pumping, the car's not going to go anywhere.

Yeah. Well, I'm going to direct this question at you because you're the one who wrote about it in the last chapter of the book. And I want to ask, why is it the nuance of a relationship that makes it so beautiful and unique? What do you mean by nuance, by the way, for listeners? For people who don't know, because it's a, for John, it's nuance of a relationship that makes it so beautiful and unique? What do you mean by nuance, by the way? For listeners, for people who

don't know, because it's a kind of poetic word. Are you asking me or are you asking? I'm asking Vanessa. Oh, me? Yeah, what do you mean? Well, you're the one that wrote it. What do you mean by nuance? I think for me, what it meant is

the different facets of the individual relationship, the different the nooks, the crannies, the things that of the individual relationship, the different, the nooks, the crannies, the things that are beautiful, but also the sharp edges. I think when we look at relationships, so many of us have this kind of cookie cutter, rom, com, Disney movie, that's what we look to, right? We have that on one hand, and then we have whatever chaos we grew up in on the other hand.

And those are usually our two things that we've got as this is what relationship should or can be. And both are not true, right? Because yes, of course your home was true, but you don't have to live, however that was, you can have your own dynamic. And I think that this idea of the nuance and why that's so important is because if we don't embrace the nuance in us, but also in our partner, then we're gonna constantly be comparing them to something that's unrealistic, that's unattainable, that's bullshit, that's not true, right? Or that's toxic, honestly, on the other side of it. And so I think constantly reminding yourself of the beauty of the nuance is a really good way

to ground yourself in the reality of what it is that you have with your partner, but also the reality of what it is that you have with your partner, but also the nuance in you. I think you have with yourself too. You know what this reminds me of, John, I'm a bit of a gear head. And when I think about all the cars that I've had and the ones that were my favorite, one of my favorite was the VW Corrado. And it was just a four cylinder with a little supercharger. It wasn't the fastest. It didn't have the most horsepower, but there was something about when I drove the stick shift, a second gear around turns, how it made me feel. And I think relationships are like that in that it doesn't have to be about these big things that we make so important. Like Vanessa says, the nuance that may come in

moments, subtleties, subtleties, the way that, you know, her lip curls or how she thinks about something in this way or the way that she holds you or scratches your back or little things like that, I think, matter. And I think generally almost more sometimes more. And generally we overlook those because we're only focusing on the big thing. Yeah, I think that's true. If you ask a lot of people who've married a long time, that's what they tell you, kept them together, was the small things, intimate things that really made them fit like glue and brought them together in time to struggle. So I love that.

Well, I wanted to hit on now some topics. Vanessa, I like how you write that I am a messy and imperfect human just figuring out as I go, but I'm also committed to showing up in my messiness and sharing what I have learned. Why is it so important for you to challenge people to think differently about what they know about themselves and about relationships? Yeah, I think similar to what I was saying about how we have

these like false idols that we look to in relationships I think we have the same with ourselves right we all know logically that Instagram is bullshit Like we all know logically that people only post the best of themselves etc But I don't know that we know that deep down inside we're still comparing ourselves to what we think people should look like, how they should be the perfect mom, the perfect partner, the perfect whatever. And it's all fake. There's no such thing, right? And so one of the things I've committed to, I mean, as much as I can, I'm human, I slip up, I want my pictures to be pretty and I want people to see the smiling photos and all that stuff. But when I leave classes or groups, for example, I'm very open about my messiness.

I'm very open about how I've screwed things up or what I did that I could have done differently. But I do it in a way not that's like, I'm shaming myself, but to say, wow, it's amazing that I did this thing because now I have this thing to look at as a learning tool. And I think for so many of us, if we looked at our messy imperfect humanist that way,

it's like, are you up for the challenge of looking in the mirror and saying, okay, I forgive myself, I screwed up, I was a jerk, I did this thing, but I'm looking at it as an opportunity to say, well, what can I learn? How can I grow? How can I evolve from this experience? So many of us allow the shame to shut us down,

and then we pretend and hide and say, we're perfect and we didn't screw up, which is actually a lot of times the cause of not owning your shit in a relationship. For a lot of us, there's this coupled idea of I've done something bad, again, air quotes for those listening, there's a coupling of I've done something bad with I am bad. And we need to really work to uncouple those two things, right? Because until we start to uncouple those two ideas, we can't learn from our mistakes and we can't own up to them in any way. Well, I'm going to now go to the number one reason relationships fail.

And I recently had on Dr. Abby Madcaff, not sure if you guys know her or not. She's a psychologist. And she told me that the number one reason relationships fail is because you start watching everything your partner does and comparing it to what you do. And effect, you start competing. Do you agree with that? I don't know, but I think there's truth there. I like the idea of competing, by the way. Yeah. By the way, I show up in my mess in this

by leaving socks on the floor, not doing the dishes. Not true. Okay. Not true. He does the digits. I'm putting whites with the colors. And he does do. And I'll go in the record right now to say it makes me crazy, but he does do the dishes a lot. What that reminds me of what you just said, we talk about finding beauty in the contrast in our book. For me, it's actually what saved this relationship because we are both different, you know, everywhere, every way from our attachment styles to love languages. Our astrology. Our astrology, the way the stars align up. I meet each other vegetarian like across the board, we're very different.

And I had to start to see, well, before even, I had to notice our differences, accept them and then embrace them and then swim and then see beauty in them, right? So there's this process. And I think when I start to see beauty and our differences, that produced relationship glue. And it's a daily process. Yeah. And some days it's hard.

Some days it's easier, but that kind of what you just said reminds me of that. And I think for me, I think what she's saying is pretty spot on. I think the, I heard something once where it was like these differences were always there. This person most likely in that way hasn't changed. So why is it all of a sudden that these things are bothering you when I'm sure they're not doing them anymore than they were when you met them. And there was something about them that you loved, right?

Oh, I love the quirks. And now you're like, the quirks make me insane. That to me, personally, that is an indication that I have to go inward because when I start nitpicking on the differences, the competing, like she said, which I think is such a good word, that to me is an indication that I've got something's going on for me. I haven't been speaking up about something.

I've got some resentments going on. There's something going on that I've been sleeping under the rug, that I'm allowing to color how I'm seeing him. Because again, those differences were always there. So why is it suddenly that this one thing is irritating me to the point of being like, I want to end this relationship? And again, I feel like I'm a broken record,

but I keep coming back to, can you look at it as something to then turn the mirror around and reflect on self versus pointing the finger outward? Not always, of course, there's going to be some things where we have to have a conversation and say, Hey, when you do x, y, and z makes me feel, I don't know, unsafe or unseen. And I wish you would do it this way. Those conversations are fine, but ultimately, in the day, it's still the same person that you met. So ask yourself why suddenly there, it's an irritation.

And John, I disagree with that number one. I don't know on paper through research, what is number one. My number one reason why relationships and would be, it's actually one word, it's resentment. I think resentment and not processing your resentment, even especially the smaller thing, not the big thing, that cracks the relationship container. It's a dripping faucet that will drown you. I would say it's all connected though. I think resentment actually builds from those nitpicking differences slash competition. So I actually think I agree with what you're saying, but I almost feel like it's more a comprehensive answer would be her answer plus the answer of resentment. Well, I'm going to ask you. I'm going to ask you. I'm sorry. Fair enough.

I think I'm in Vanessa's camp on that one. I think it's a little bit of both personally. Yeah. So another question that I think people often ponder is, how do you decide or what questions should you ask yourself and your partner before first moving in with them or second getting married to them? Because I often think we don't ask the tough questions ahead of time. And I thought maybe a good way to look at this was in chapter four. getting married to them because I often think we don't ask the tough questions ahead of time and I thought maybe a good way to look at this was in chapter four you have the non-negotiables versus

preference exercise. I thought maybe that could be a tool that people could use but I'd like to get your perspective on it. That's a hard question because people don't sit there with a checklist asking questions. They just do it and then figure it out on the way. For me, I think it's less about asking her questions and more about asking myself questions, right? Can you live with this person? Why are you investing exactly as they are? Right. Yeah. Are you trying to change this person? Can you accept this person as they are? Right? Relationships are about compromise, not compromise of self. What are you willing to compromise? So the questions would be more toward to me, not

to her. Yeah, I like that reframe, John. I also think that even the non-negotiables and preferences list, I mean, as an exercise is still more about you, and it's totally fine for you to have a non-negotiable list, we all should. It's a sign of healthy boundaries, really. There are the obvious ones like there shouldn't be physical violence, there shouldn't be emotional abuse, things like that that we should all ideally have that are non-negotiables list.

But also, especially in the process of dating and growing and changing, if you were to do this exercise job when you were in your 20s before you'd gotten married, I'm sure that list would look entirely different most likely. It may be some of the non-negotiables, but then when you were in your 40s and on your single journey again. And that's okay. These are like living, breathing lists. But I do think that if we do the work of understanding self well enough to know what those non-negotiables and preferences are, then when we decide that this is somebody I want to commit to, we have to hold ourselves accountable. Okay, there's great chemistry, and I'm in love with this person,

and they knock my socks off, but they have three of my big non-negotiables, very prevalent. Okay, well, are you holding yourself accountable to the list that you made for yourself, or are you allowing chemistry and passion to blind you from what you have already established is very important.

So I think it is to your point, John, it's about self. It's about questioning what's important to you and then holding yourself accountable for it. In my 20s, I would have only asked myself one question and that is, is she hot? Yeah, exactly. That's most able to hold their 20s, probably. I still ask that, but there's also 15 other questions.

Like, can she scratch your back, not like with a broken sprinkler. This is how she's discretion my back in the beginning. Now it's great. Now it's a may thorough. I love it. Yeah. But those things can be learned.

John in chapter seven, you write that there's usually one relationship we compare all others to. Why is it that's the case and what are things we can do to, or things we can practice to pull ourselves out of our past? Yeah, that's a great question. It's usually because it was the deepest imprint in that relationship that we compare all others to is usually the one that happened when our hearts were powdered snow.

When we were in high school, maybe college, maybe in our 20s, our first broken hearts. Early on, when we haven't experienced all the colors, and so that imprint is very deep, and so we compare as we grow up, we compare everything to that, and we don't realize that we're older now. It's like when you go back to high school and you're like, oh my god, look how tiny I chair it. It looks so small, were you going to the fight or were you kiss that person on the bleachers. Everything looks tiny and it's because you're imagining it through the eyes and body and the experience of when you were 20, not when you're 49 and we tend to compare things to things we shouldn't compare to, compared to

yeah. And then how do you get past that? Being aware of it? And then giving yourself new love experiences that start to see clips the old loving and putting weight on different things and then dropping into your body and experiencing something different that is different than what you're used to and you realize, oh, it can be like this. I had a therapist once asked me when I was in my 20s and I was still processing that exact relationship and break up. I remember she said to me and it was seemed simple

but it was really groundbreaking to me at the time where she said, are you still in love with slash? Are you pining for this person? Or was it the moment and the time and the feeling in your life that is what you're actually missing? And I remember that being such a kind of brain exploding question because she was right. It was more about everything that was happening in my life and like the way that I was feeling, it was like the first time I felt like I had been seen, the first time I felt like I had

been loved. But I don't know that's about that person necessary. It's probably more about that time in your life. So that was a really helpful question for me when I was doing the comparison thing. Okay. I also wanted to ask, how do you take full responsibility in your relationship and not playing the victim card or the blame card? I think it's helpful to process with someone, even your partner, if you feel safe with your partner, what you want to take responsibility for and why.

You mean like macro? Yeah, and also the why shouldn't be because you're doing it for your partner. So if you want to take ownership of responsibility, it should line up with who you want to be your character. You're not giving your partner a gift. That's a good point. Yeah, I like that. It's more about, again, it's more about you. It's like, why are you owning this thing?

And what about this is going to help you on your journey to growth and evolution and your relationship, hopefully too. But it's not about the other person. It's about you. And that's always a really important thing to remember. You're not doing this for them. You're doing this for you. Or you're not doing this to get something out of them.

OK. And I know you guys love to talk about this host that's on TV, that at the end of the episode grabs his wife's hand and they act like it's the perfect relationship in the world and they never fight. But the reality is that I think it's healthy to fight. We're all going to fight at some points in our relationships. But I wanted you guys to give your advice for how do you do this in a healthy way and a constructive way. Yeah, it's not about how many times we fight. It's about how we fight.

Fight actually can bring us closer. Fight can get us to understand ourselves better as long as they're done in a safe way. My simple answer is to go into fights, trying to understand the other person instead of trying to be understood. And that comes from half of my life, always going into fights, trying to get the person to understand me first before trying to understand them or sometimes not understanding them. And so if you have two people trying to understand the each other first before trying to be understood, it neutralizes that space. It makes it safe. Now there's room for compassion. The guards are down. We're being vulnerable, and that's coming from love, of course. Usually people go in the fight, trying to prove their point,

just be understood, trying to say, this is why I'm right and you're wrong. And then that's when the magnet flips, and that's when the fights are just toxic and not productive. Yeah. And I want to say too that just because you're trying to understand them and that's your kind of mission going into an argument or disagreement doesn't mean that you have to agree with them. And a lot of people, it's an ego thing. A lot of people feel like if I give this person compassion or if I try to understand what they're coming from, I'm suddenly saying that I'm wrong and they're right. No, that's not what you're saying. You're saying that you're looking at your partner with compassion, which I would hope that you would also want in return. And another little tip that I, well, maybe not little, but another tip that I've used and I've

used with clients is trying to also see your partner where they're coming from in terms of like their story and their wounding. So if I look at John when he comes to me with something, and rather than just looking at him as John, who he is right now in this moment, I'm annoyed with him, he didn't make the bed, whatever my story is for that day. But instead I look at him and I know his story and I know potentially where this source spot for him is coming from. It brings me into a place of compassion because I'm

almost looking at him like young little boy version of John. And it's really hard to be pissed off and angry when you're looking at your partner through the lenses of them as like a nine-year-old when they first got in trouble for doing this thing that now has become a pain point for them. So I think that can also be really helpful. So you're processing John like the water boy was processing can also be really helpful. So you're processing John like the water boy was processing the victims in that movie that he was going to tackle. Maybe that's what happens in your therapist who's talking to them and their inner child, but it is helpful. Well, I wanted to end this in the way that you end the book and that is that you give 10 different love lessons. We obviously don't have time to go through them and I want people to buy this amazing book, which I'll show here again. We're not going to go

through all of them, but I wanted to touch on maybe a couple of them. So one you write about is that love is not a battlefield, but your head is. Yeah, that's a playoff hat Ben and Tarzan. Love is a battlefield. I think that it's not love. It's everything that's in between our ears. It's our distorted thinking. It's loving with our past. It's comparing everything that it's our inner war. And that's what can make love a roller coaster or a Quenkel crazy or a battlefield.

Mm. Okay, and I'll ask another one. If someone is unsure about you, it's not worth the investment. Yeah, Vanessa knows. Look, you've got to be able to say, I know I'm worth it. I know that I matter and that it might not be to you. And that's okay. Again, the work of depersonalizing. But if somebody is showing you, and again, actions and words, they need to line up. So, somebody is showing you that they're unsure. you need to show yourself that you are sure,

because if you don't choose you, and that's hard for a lot of people, and that's a lifelong journey, it's something I'm still working on. Okay. Well, for the listener out there, there's so much in this book that we didn't get a chance to cover, things like the sticky relationship dynamic, and what swimming past the breakers mean and so many other things. I would highly encourage you to pick up a copy of this great book. I always love to end with this question

and I'll ask you to both answer it. This is unique because you wrote this book together. What did you hope when you were writing it that a reader would get from reading it? Like what lessons? Yeah. For me, two things. One, the therapist or human, we're not perfect and we have issues as well. And then the second one is, what do you want to own now? After reading this, what is it that you want to own or change about yourself? That's it. Yeah, I think for me, I was hoping that the reader would get permission to be flawed. And a permission to be human. And so with that permission, again, taking the ego out of it,

now I can own stuff because it's okay. It doesn't mean that I'm bad or there's something wrong with me. It just means that I'm human and we're all human. and that was our hope in being transparent about our own stuff. Okay, and one other quick question, what was the biggest lesson that you both learned through writing it about each other? I don't know if it's a lesson, maybe an observation. Yeah, my observation was that it was a really good, flowy process. Whenever you're creating with your partner, it creates a closeness. Connection and closeness doesn't just have to be sexual. No to self. It can be through art, it can be through writing a book, it can be through traveling, conversation, all that. Yeah, so it was enjoyable. Yeah, it was a powerful experience.

That was an observation. It was easy, which was interesting. That was something I wasn't expecting. It just flowed and it was very easy. But also I would say the biggest observation for me was just like, even though I knew it going in, but being reminded again of how different we are even in like our styles. So he's again, shot glass, boop And I'm more like, let's go slow, let's be balanced. Let's go to yoga in the middle of it. It's an interesting process when you're doing something creative to have that very different approach to whatever that thing is that you're creating.

Well, thank you both so much for being on the show. It was really a great opportunity to get to know you, introduce you to our audience. And I really appreciate you taking the time to do this. Yeah, thank you, John. This was awesome. Thank you for having us and also creating a dialogue about relationships. Yeah. I thoroughly enjoyed that interview with John Kim and Vanessa Bennett. And I wanted to thank John Vanessa 40A and Harper One for giving us the honor and privilege of having him here on the show. Links to all things Vanessa and John will be in the show notes at passionstruck.com.

Please use our website links if you buy any of the books from the authors that we feature here on the show. It helps to support the show and make it free for our listeners. Videos are on YouTube at JohnRMiles and we now have a new passion struck clips channel at PassionStruck Clips. Advertiser deals and discount codes are in one convenient place at passionstruck.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. I'm at JohnRmiles, both on Twitter and Instagram, and you can also find me on LinkedIn. And you're about to hear a preview of the Passion Struck Podcast interview I did with James Bell. The author of the new book, Hope Realized, we discuss how to create all in hope that can forever alter lives and end

poverty. I think if we can get to the point where we're actually looking at people as hopeful and then bringing what we have to the table to make a real difference, I think that we can see some real change, but it's going to require a long-term investment, and it requires both pieces, both the practical hope, and then that reframed identity. And if we focus on both of those things, instead of just one or the other, I believe real change can happen and we've seen it. The fee for this show is that you share it with friends or family members. When you find something useful or interesting, if you know somebody who's struggling with a relationship, definitely share today's episode with them. The greatest compliment that you can give the show is to share it with

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