Passion Struck with John R. Miles - John U. Bacon on Leading the Way: How Everyone Can Impact a Great Team EP 243

Episode Date: January 19, 2023

In today's Passion Struck episode, I interview John U. Bacon, the New York Times bestselling author of Let Them Lead: Unexpected Lessons in Leadership from America's Worst High School Hockey Team. John is a highly sought-after expert on shared leadership, and this episode is a must-listen for leaders of any type. What We Discuss About Leading the Way so Everyone Can Impact a Great Team Shared leadership is one of the most important leadership concepts today, and in this interview, John U. Bacon shares with us how everyone involved can impact a great team. He discusses how shared leadership benefits both leaders and followers and provides practical tips on implementing shared leadership in your team. Using shared leadership, Bacon was able to transform the team dynamics of the worst high school hockey team in America and transform them in three years, into one of the best in the country. Full show notes and resources can be found here: https://passionstruck.com/john-u-bacon-on-leading-the-way/  Brought to you by ZocDoc. --► For information about advertisers and promo codes, go to: https://passionstruck.com/deals/  --► Prefer to watch this interview:  https://youtu.be/VavjJIdqR-E  Like this show? Please leave us a review here -- even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter or Instagram handle so we can thank you personally! --► Subscribe to Our YouTube Channel Here: https://www.youtube.com/c/JohnRMiles Want to find your purpose in life? I provide my six simple steps to achieving it - passionstruck.com/5-simple-steps-to-find-your-passion-in-life/ Want to hear my best interviews from 2022? Check out episode 233 on intentional greatness and episode 234 on intentional behavior change. ===== FOLLOW ON THE SOCIALS ===== * Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/passion_struck_podcast * Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/johnrmiles.c0m  Learn more about John: https://johnrmiles.com/ 

Coming up next, I'm a passion struck podcast. Why the great players are almost never the great coaches. Magic Johnson, Wayne Gratsky, Ted Williams, Bart Star, arguably the four of the best certainly at what they did. None of them worked as coaches. And the reason is simple, you have to know how to motivate the third and fourth line guys who will ultimately be the heart of your team.

That's always been my feeling. Those guys got a matter, they got to be important. You have to know what motivates them. They have to feel like the role in the team is significant and it should be. And my joke about that in corporate America is if you're paying them, they better be important or else why are you paying them? Welcome to PassionStruck. Hi, I'm your host John Armiles and on the show we decipher the secrets, tips and guidance of the world's most inspiring people and turn their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you.

Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself. If you're new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays. We have long-form interviews the rest of the week with guest ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries, and athletes. Now let's go out there and become PassionStruck. Hello everyone and welcome back to episode 243 of PassionStruck. Recently ranked by FeedSpot is one of the top 50 most inspirational podcasts in the world and thank by FeedSpot is one of the top 50 most inspirational podcasts

in the world, and thank you to each and every one of you who comes back weekly. Well listen and learn, how to live better, be better, and impact the world. And if you're new to the show, thank you so much for being here, or you simply want to introduce this to a friend or family member, and we so appreciate it when you do that. We now have episodes stutter packs, and these are collections of our fans, favorite episodes that we organize in convenient topics to give any new listener a great way to get acquainted to everything we do here on the show. You can either go to Spotify or go to passionstruck.com slash starder packs.

In case you missed it, earlier in the week, I interviewed Yuri Levine, who was the co-founder of Waze, and we discussed his brand new book, Ball in Love with the Problem, Not the Solution. And in case you missed my solo episode from last week, it was on the value of struggle in our growth. Please check them both out, and thank you so much for your continued support of the show. All your ratings and reviews go such a long way, and helping increase the popularity of the show, but more importantly, bringing more people into the passion start community,

where we can provide them inspiration, hope, meaning, and connection. Now, let's talk about today's episode. How do you take the country's worst hockey team and turn it into one of the best? My way or the highway simply doesn't work anymore, especially with younger curious men and women. So, what does our guest today, John U-Bacon,

to cover a team who hadn't won a single game the year before, and on top of that, lost the four best players to graduation. With the same players, angry parents, and doubtful administrators, John was able to turn the program around by drawing on the power that was hidden inside all of the players on the team.

You will learn that it starts with having high expectations, making the players accountable to each other. And before you know it, they're leading the team. That's how everybody wins, and that's how they learn life's valuable lessons. John U Bacon has worked for nearly three decades as a writer, a public speaker, and a college instructor, winning awards for all three. He has authored 12 books on sports, business, health, and history, seven of which are New York Times bestsellers. Today we discuss his latest book, Let Them Lead, Unexpected Lessons in Leadership, from

America's Worst High School Hockey Team. Bacon has taught at Northwesterns, Medell School of Journalism, and teaches at the University of Michigan. Thank you for choosing PassionStruck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life. Now, let that journey begin. I am so excited today to welcome John U Bacon to the PassionStruck podcast. Welcome, John. Welcome. Thank you, John. Appreciate that. And I'm excited to be here, of course. Well, as we talked about beforehand, we have two major things in common. We both love hockey, and we're both huge Michigan fans. So that is exactly where I want to start the

days conversation. We're going to talk about the one that's right behind your shoulder, let them lead. And congratulations, I heard it's being made into a movie, by the way. It's made me into a screenplay by Jim Bernstein who did Mighty Ducks. We've got some big names attached to it so far. But until the Czech Claire is trust me, there's no love in Hollywood. Believe me or say it, Jim Bernstein's great line to me is in one of these meetings, and I've been in these meetings a number of times. He's been in hundreds, but in Hollywood, if they say they liked it, they hated it. They said they loved it. They liked it.

If they actually paid you, they loved it. So until they pay you, there's no love. I agree. I agree. Yes. I hear you there. Well, you and I are around the same age. And for decades growing up when we were kids, we got to go see these amazing

Michigan teams who just had this winning aura about them. And then everything came crashing down. And this is something that you talk about in your book End Zone. But what I wanted to hear from you is what happened to Michigan is not an isolated thing. This is something that could happen at other universities. In fact, it has a two of the ones here in Florida State and UF. Happened in the boardroom. It's happened in other organizations. So what were some of the things that led to Michigan's demise over that decade?

A few things. This is from basically Lloyd Car, the previous coach stepped down after the 07 season, Richard Rodriguez came in for three years, Brady Hope came in for four years. There's seven years. Basically, decade is you point out before Jim Harbaugh comes in 2015 and now they're of course riding pretty high at eight. No, but what I learned in the process and this definitely applies to leadership. And by the way, well, God bless you, John, you're the first guy you figured out that end zone is really a book about leadership, not just about college football and journalism and so on. What I learned in the process of end zone, and this is, of course, you're right. Michigan football is riding high for 37 some years with Boehm Beckler, Gary Mueller, and Lloyd Carr all winning. Of course, big 10 titles.

Then as you said, I'll come crashing down after Lloyd left in 2007. Richard Rodriguez was the head coach for three years and then Brady Holt for four years. And they'd both been successful elsewhere. So it's not like they were crazy to hire them. But what I learned in the process and this applies, I think, the company's corporations, organizations, and so on, is that in the NFL, there really is much of a culture and a lot of companies I think are like this where Bill Parcell, the former New England Patriots coach, he can go to your arch rival, the New York Jets, and no problem. It's like plugging into a toaster. The toaster works here, the toaster plugs in there, it's the same toaster, same wiring and all that. I learned in college football,

I think the better organizations, frankly, are like this. It's not just plugging in a toaster, it's a heart transplant. And for that heart transplant to work, you have to have the same size, you have the right size heart, the right blood type, the right surgeon, the patient, the doctor, we've got to both do their part to make sure that things are going well. Otherwise, guess what? The body rejects the organ. And you see this again and again, and college football in a way you really don't as much in NFL NFL is wins and losses in college football the culture's got to receive you because they take this very Seriously and you've lived around and of course Navy you will take a seriously army you can't go from army to Navy

Sorry, you just can't you can't go from a house they to Michigan you can't go from Nebraska to Oklahoma They can't go from USC D.C. LA, they're different cultures and it's not gonna work. So biggest thing I learned is the importance of culture and how it's truly biological at that point. Well, I thought it really is a leadership book because throughout it, you profile the unusual move that Michigan did of taking the former CEO of Domino's,

who really has never been an athletic director before and placing him into this new position. And what it reminded me of is I worked for Loes for a number of years and there was a period of time where Bob Nardelli was brought in to lead the Home Depot. And I remember at each one of our executive sessions, our leadership team would just pray that Bob would continue to stay at the helm of Home Depot

because we were closing the gap more so in those years of his tenure than we had ever done before. But I think it was interesting because when Dave Brandon came in, I like how you like it in the book. He was trying to corporalize the athletic department, maximize revenue and overhaul the staff and his likeness and all these things turn out to be a mistakes. What can we learn from what he tried to implement and why did it go so wrong? Why did it go so wrong? Well, look, I mean, I predicted, clearly falls in accurately,

that he was going to be a great success, and I think we all predicted this in my limited defense. He was the CEO of Domino's Pizza for 10 years, but he'd also been a, not a very good, but a great region at Michigan, which is our trustees at the University of Michigan, unusually involved and effective,

getting a children's hospital built for $750 million, for example. He had played football for Bo Shem, Beckler. So there's a lot of reason to think that this guy is going to work out very well, and those both sides of the equation, basically. But it went wrong pretty quickly, almost from the start. One of his phrases was, if it ain't broke, break it. And there are times he need to do that, and then if you're at Oregon, by the way, and

you want to change the uniforms every week, great, because there's no tradition there that matters. And that is their tradition, basically now, Phil Knight, of Nike fame, of course. And but Michigan is one of these blue bloods like Penn State or Ohio State. Florida is one of those certainly. You don't go around, mass media don't forms, you don't, and they did all this other stuff. See, there's no need to break anything. And the other thing I found was crucial.

And I think also this is more limited in the corporate side, but still applies that he always said that the business model of cost football is broken. Yes, because it's not supposed to be a business. That's the problem. You're not paying the players back then. You're not paying the band. Those are the two main reasons we show up. It's an irrational love. And that's where they've got us. As I said in the book, if you treat your fans like customers long enough sooner or later, they're going to behave like customers and boil down the decision to buy tickets to a rational X versus Y. If I buy football tickets or snow tires up here, and now you've lost the irrational magic and now we're thinking with our heads, which you don't want. Instead of our hearts, and then you're off. And likewise, when you have intense loyalty and some companies that were very loyal to lows, by the way, so good for you.

LLB has this. Certain companies have this fierce loyalty. They just don't want to change no matter what. And once you start screwing around with why we love you so much, I start cutting corners or whatever else, then we start looking around and what are our options. So don't ever take your loyal fan base for granted. That's one of the great lessons there.

They have an emotional attachment to your organization. Don't one of the great lessons there. They have an emotional attachment to your organization. Don't go through the reason not to. Don't slap them out of this dream where this is this wonderful paradise. And you lose them that way. And after that, guess what? I can send in my couch for a lot less money and watch it on TV. Which is what I have to do every single week given I love here in Florida. Although, although life is tough, John, life is tough. Yes. Life is tough. You're asking for sympathy from us. You're not going to get any. But go ahead. Especially I not this time of the year. Not in two months.

Well, we all have moments that define us. And as a player in the early 80s, you played for the Ann Arbor River rats, were you happen to set the record for the most games ever played? I think it was 86 without swarming the ball. It was actually done. It is 86. I'm very sensitive about that. How did that shape who you became today? I never had that question. And I've done more than a hundred interviews on this book Sen John was nice enough to leave out the punchline the record is 86 games and here in uniform I dress for every game three straight years with the fewest goals zero

That's the there's the punchline all my all-state teammates Brad McCawian So in the records of all been broken, but you cannot break all the games and none of the goals You cannot break that so it's impossible hard to find me. You know what? I've never gotten that question so I'm thinking out loud here. But I would say there's a few things. One, I learned not to give up. It was undeniably frustrating, even looking back and it still bothers me a little bit, which is pathetic. But it's true. I went to hockey camps, I lifted weights, I did all the stuff in the off season, I never let up. That's one thing. And we ended up finding a place for ourselves. My friend and I, Scott Bogart, still a great

friend. We had teachers made up called Pine Brothers with our numbers in the back. I just found it in my parents' house. I was five foot five and 120 pounds, so it doesn't fit me now. We made the best of it, and we ended up being very good penalty killers, which is a very specific role

as like special teams in football, basically. So that was good, but also had great bonds with my teammates, and we still do. We had our 40th high school reunion, so that was good. You can still get a lot my teammates and we still do we had our 40th High School reunion so that was good You can still get a lot out of it even if you didn't get everything you wanted out of it Everything you thought you should get or deserved or whatever else you can still get a lot out of it And most experiences in life are like that. How many times you get everything you wanted and when I was coaching

It was a great help to me. Oh two reasons one. I had fire in the belly if I failed this I failed it both Okay I've already failed as a player great help to me. Two reasons. One, I had fire in the belly. If I failed this, I failed it both. Okay. So I've already failed as a player. I don't want to fail as a coach. Boehm, Beckler, one of my mentors. Of course, Michigan's legendary coach. I asked him once, how did Miami-Vo'hio produce so many Hall of Fame coaches?

They've got their records. 12 or 13, it's crazy. It's Paul Brown, it's Woody Hayes. The list goes on and on. Air Parseguin, Boehm, Beckler. And I said, how do they produce so many great coaches? That's easy. We couldn't play. Okay, that's, there's my motivation. So I became a better player in the beer leagues in the adult leagues. When I came back at a lot of fire in the belly and crucially.

And I got a section in that book about why the great players are almost never the great coaches magic Johnson Wayne Gratsky Ted Williams barred star arguably the four the best certainly at what they did None of them worked as coaches and the reason is simple You have to know how to motivate the third and fourth line guys who will ultimately be the heart of your team That's always been my feeling those guys got a matter matter. They got to be important. You have to know what motivates them. They have to feel like their role in the team is significant and it should be. And my drug about that in corporate America is if you're paying them, they better be important or else why are you paying them? By definition, if you're in our building, you've got to be important. There are no small people. So that helped me a great deal of thinking

motivating the entire team, not just the stars. The stars tend to be motivated. Well, I was going to save this question for later, but you kind of just walked into it. I think the story of Dark Neater is one that needs to be told. So I was hoping you could just jump on what you just said there and tell the story of Nate. I've read in on that one. It's one of my favorites. One of yours too, apparently. And by the way, the only thing I got to ask about this is Stu Grimson former Detroit Redwing great is now in the NHL network. He asked about dark need or also so great minds right there John. So the team in a nutshell was 0-22 and 3 the year before I signed on in 2000. It was ranked the worst team in America, which is pretty impressive when they've got teams in California ahead of us. That was not so good.

The higher the worst player in school history to coach them, yes, this is the combination we're looking for here. John, this has got to succeed, right? Worst player, worst team fantastic, but I only had two rules. Work hard and support your teammates. That's it. And that allowed us to define ourselves and one of the crucial rules and this will lead to Nate in business and education, healthcare, whatever. If you're a leader, you focus on their behaviors and the results will take care of themselves. You've got to be impatient on behaviors

and patient on results. And by the way, the Naval Academy is a great place to learn this. What do you learn? The second you get off the bus, someone's in your face already, all right? And we're working on behaviors right away. We know you can't pilot a plane,

we know you can't cap the nurse ship, we know this when you get off that bus. We also know that these behaviors will lead to those things. And I've been on the USS Teddy Roosevelt, one of the great aircraft carriers, the and the Admiral said, when you get on the technology, don't press your first when you get off, by the way, the ship is the 2 3,019 year olds who run it, who will impress you. So anyway, focusing on behaviors, Nate had all the behaviors I

wanted, came out for the team, his sophomore year, my first year, all the workouts worked like crazy. He was tall and skinny and not fast and not strong. In net, he's hit himself in the book, because I interviewed all the players years afterwards for this 15 years later. He said I could not stop a beach ball, which for goalie is not good.

He is our fifth string goalie, and that you get your attention, because you only carry three. But I liked him so much. I found a way to carry five the first year and have him alternate practice with the four string guy. And then we had two seniors graduates. Now we have three goalies and Nate's number three.

We got a very good team our second year. We're six and five. Great for us after being zero point two and three. With the midpoint, but our goal tenons killing us. And that because they're good guys and they're good goalies. But they did not like each other and they're at each other's next bringing their performance down from 90% save percentage to 75% save percentage of those 11 games who should have 110 So this is a problem. So what do you do you have dinner with your assistant coaches? And I went around the table and said okay, who do I start tomorrow night against gross point south the ranks seventh

We've not beaten them in 20 years. The average score is six to one. All right, this is going to be a mulling probably. And I say, who do I start? And two guys said the sophomore, two guys said the junior and one coach said, just pull the goalie and take our chances. So if you're not hockey guys out there, I mean, you pull the goalie for an attacker. You have six skaters and no goalie and you're trying to win nine to eight. Basically. So I'd be funnier. John, if he was joking, he was not.

But anyway, I say screwed. I'm giving Nate his chance. And the lesson here is water all the plants, water all the plants. The military is particularly good at this. Water all the plants. In other words, I don't care if you're a star or your Nate right, would you? The third from going, he got the same number of shots as the starters, the same attention,

the same respect. And he points that out in the book. I still didn't think he'd develop very much the goalie, but I'm putting them in there. We supported them all we could. Tactically, the guys all loved them. So they want to block shots for him and so on. And then come on back on defense. I told both offense and defense, I don't care if it's zero, zero. I want the zero at our end. I don't care about scoring goals tonight. And I thought we're gonna get molded anyway. I kept that to myself. Never tell anybody what they cannot do.

Never define the ceiling for anybody in your organization because they will surprise you. That is this chapter in verse six. Let them surprise you. And what happens? Final score. Here on five, gross points south three. And I was not expecting that a million years. The and I have no idea what that happened. I really don't that night. Nate

knocked back 25 shots. He looked great doing it. He looked like he'd been an all-state goalie's entire life. I have no idea how that light went on. The gross point South coach was very gracious afterwards. And he said in the paper in the end ofbor news, I see a team out there that's disciplined, that has a system that the coach is instilled and the team believes in, no, you won lucky coach is which I anticipated none of this none and that night had screwed. You're my starting goalie, that's it, we're done. And for year and a half he was and he led us to a number four ranking the state and the best team in school history is our fifth string goalie So don't give yourself too much credit get out of the prediction business All right, so many leaders feel like they've got a predict this guy's got it and then this guy doesn't and so no

Just give them all a chance lying them all up and run the race and keep running the race every day And see who chips away and see who makes a difference. And Nate's one of those guys. And then his backup goal, one of the two guys previously, he ended up being a great goalie the next year, beating an all-time great Trenton, four to three at their place, first time in 20 years for us. So it starts building on itself after a while.

Once guys start stepping up, the guys behind him start stepping up. And now you got a real culture going on and two or three years into that, you got a great thing. But water two or three years into that, you got a great thing. But water all the plants, I cannot guarantee you who's gonna grow when, how big, how fast any of this. I can guarantee you, if you don't water the plants,

they will not grow. So water them all. Yeah, it's interesting you bring this up. When I was at the Naval Academy, my two for us, it's a little bit different than West Point. For them, it's the sophomores who kind of guide the plebes for us. It's the second class or the juniors. But two of my primary second class are now two-star admirals.

And looking back, one of them I would have predicted would have become an admiral because he just had that persona, everything about him. The other guy finished at the bottom of his class. I played rugby with him for three years, just this great guy, but I always thought he was going to be five and done. And the interesting thing is one is in the Seal community. The other is decorated EOD officer. So it's interesting how that happened.

And I will say the same thing about Dell when I was the CIO there. I got to ask you though, which one's which? The one who's the EOD officer was the one I never thought would become an admiral. But crucially, John, you didn't stop him. He didn't tell me he's a loser. He didn't say he couldn't do this. You couldn, you didn't stop him. He didn't tell me he's a loser. He didn't say he couldn't do this. You couldn't say any of those things. He didn't predict that he's going to. I didn't think Nate was going to wall that team that night. I didn't tell me couldn't. And you didn't tell this guy that he couldn't. That's the crucial thing. Don't put

obstacles in their way. They don't need. Let them sort it out and let them surprise you. You just did it, man. You just did it big time. Good work. Well, I think that's an important lesson for how you raise your kids too. You never know what they're going to bite on and how far they're going to take. Well, I'm going to take this all the way back to here you are. You've never coached a team before, as far as I'm aware. And your high school alma mater hasn't won a game in the last year. You decide you want to try out to be the coach. You go against another person who, at first,

seemed like they were gonna get the job, but what is going through your head? What possessed you to wanna take on that position? It's a great question. My dad asked the same question. My dad's a pediatrician at the University of Michigan. And his first question is, why would you want to do that? It takes a ton of time.

It pays 5,000 bucks during the season. It pays nothing in the off season. And if you don't work in the off season, you won't be very good. But it's always been a dream of mine. And it sounds utterly corny. Yes, I had metrics in mind. I knew I wanted to win games.

I wanted to beat our rivals. I wanted to go find a playoff. I wanted to team to set some records. Yeah, all that. But that's not why I did it. What I really wanted, it's the old Supreme Court justice talking about the difference between pornography and art. And he said, I can't define it, but I know it when I see it.

And that's about how I felt. I can't define what a great culture is in some ways, but I know it when I see it. And I really know when I see it, and that's about how I felt. I can't define what a great culture is in some ways, but I know it when I see it, and I really know when I feel it. What I want, it was the feeling in the locker room that everyone's got your back, that we are better than everyone thinks we are, that we believe in ourselves, that you don't wanna play us. And that everybody individually and collectively

knows the habit of finding limitations and surpassing them, constantly surprising ourselves. That's the feeling I wanted. This kind of runaway freight train of greatness, if you will. So that's what I wanted. I didn't always have that myself as a player. I had some of that with my teammates, but not of the team. We had a good team too, but if we had more of that,

we might have won a state title. We got to the final four. But anyway, so that's what I really wanted. And I wanted them really, the ultimate measure. And this is, again, I think how the Navy and the Army work in Air Force. I wanted these guys to grow up. I wanted them boys to become men. That's the biggest thing I wanted them to look back on this and say,

this is how you do it. This shaped me. And now I can do things I could never do before. And that has worked out. So those are my dreams and hopes. But as you point out, the other candidate actually had coached before, had been a head coach and hockey before. And I had not, and there are six people in the panel. And the initial vote was four to two for the other guy. And I'm not all that sharpened math, John,

but I got this one. That's more right there. So that's a problem. The problem got bigger when you were us who the four was. The four included the incoming captain, Mike Henry, now a great friend of mine. He voted for the other guy. Um, one of the parents voted for the other guy, the secretary of the department voted for the other guy. And best of all, the athletic director, Jane Bennett, great friend of mine now, but she was my eighth grade math teacher. She and I were already friends.

She voted for the stranger. That's not a good sign. So you're going to get a lot of things. She ended up flipping her vote. Three, three, the principal picked me and broke the tie because I'd gone to here on. But worst plan of school history, worst team in America,

and nobody wants you to be the coach, and the parents and the players were very upset when I was named the coach. So people talking to me about recruiting problems these days, the labor market and so on, I'll give you a recruiting problem. Recruit to that, but anyway, that's how it all started,

but that's the whole thing I wanted was a certain feeling that, and that drove me always. Well, then you get the job and you immediately ignore conventional wisdom as to how to approach the team. Why in the world did you decide to take on that approach? What chances I have? A desperate man does desperate things, John. We know that my dad's great line is the title of chapter one when I told him I was going to take the job and the team was 0, 22 and three in the worst human America. He shrugged and said, well, when you're on the floor, you can't fall out of bed. Thanks, dad. My dad is not a motivational speaker. I'll just stop there.

But anyway, but I had lunch with one of my great mentors Al Clark of Culver military Academy military for the boys, but not for the girls now it's Culver academies, but He started the program their program in 76 with an outdoor rank and 12 Hispanic kids I never skated before Autumn skates in South Bend the third year of their state champs 5th 6th 7th 8th year there eight straight years ares. Now, then the B team starts winning the state title because the 18 can't go anymore. And now they just sent him a banner to not come. He said 25 and it's a graph picks either the corn fields. This never happens. Nine NHL players, six Olympians. And he's also the math department chairman of Phi Beta Kappa math major out of New Hampshire,

also all American and hockey. This guy's a very rare guy. And I say, okay, I'm like the and tells me that they're the millennials now we got generations Zeeb is the same stuff they're lazy they're entitled they're selfish they're undisciplined they will not put up with this you need to get them casual fried as in taco Tuesdays and all this stuff and as I've joked about before the companies that offer casual fried as in taco Tuesdays and all the ping pong tables and video games that kick great the problem is those things work great in attracting just the kind of people who like those things but aren I don't think that find of hard work. The Navy SEALs exactly up your alley as you know from the book and you already know this anyway.

They pay $54,000 on average and they take 6% of those who apply. And I'm not applying. You could probably apply, John, but I know I'm too soft for that. They're not looking at bikers who are walking in that door. And they're not apologizing for being hard. They're not denying that it's hard. They're bragging about it being hard. That's the point of the place. They celebrate it.

Are you tough enough to handle us? Are you tough enough to handle the naval academy? It's not for everybody. That's the point. And people I say, well, I can't get everyone that way. Right. You don't want everybody. McDonald's wants everybody. You don't. All right. So that's narrow way. And that was I was advice to me. And I said, your next question is why that approach, hell, what else did I have? So, that as well.

So I wrote a letter to all the guys in the team the previous year. And most of them, by the way, were either counting on not playing for the team or quitting hockey altogether. That's how low the morale was. So I sent this letter out and I say congratulations. You are trying out for the hardest working high school hockey team in the state of Michigan. And I meant it. And we were

in the track a week after school gets out, we're in the weight room, brutal workouts, all voluntary. I can't by state law make the mandatory in the off season, not one player quit. And that has got to get your attention. This is not the Navy seals. We're talking about applicants. This is the worst human America. All of them should about applicants. This is the worst even in America. All of them should have quit. And we all threw up on that track at some point or other, including me, including assistant coach Michael Average,

not one player quit. And that's when you realize these guys are hungry to be acknowledged, have a challenge. Daniel Burnham, who built modern Chicago in the 1890s. Great line. Make no small plans, they lack the power to stir our souls. And we go to the Naval Academy, they don't know, hey, come on here, we're going to be average. That's not the pitch. It's not going to work. So we, I have no idea how game and the games we're

going to win, but we are going to be the hardest working high school hockey team in the state. And we were. And right there, as one of the players said in the book, who's now a lawyer, Department of Homeland Security, Scotty McConnell, he said to have somebody take that much attention to us, that much time and energy, and that much belief in us, that was water. That was an oasis in a desert, and people eat it up. So don't be afraid to be tough if you're going to be caring. So you lay this groundwork with the team,

they're responding to it. You come into the season, and if I have it right, you start out with the team, they're responding to it. You come into the season and if I have it right, you start out with three wins and then you run into a school called Trenton who has won the state championship many years in a row, they're the big dogs. And you end up going into this game and losing 13 to two. But it ended up being a great leadership opportunity for you and a learning opportunity for the kids.

What did you say coming out of that and how did the kids respond to it and then bounce positively forward from that moment? Sadly, the facts are all true. As all Naval Academy graduates do, John has done his homework. He's got his notes and he's on top of this. We won our first three games.

So in one week, we won more games than we'd won the pre two previous years combined. So that was good. We rented a bus off course, State Power Trenton USA today newspaper. Once called them the best high school hockey program in the nation. And we're the worst. So that's a good match up right there. And the final score wasn't fact 13 to and a reminder to you listeners, especially in non sports people. This is not high school football. Those are two touchdowns and other safety. He's coming in

increments of one. So that was a long night. At the end of that night, John, I knew their fight songs. I heard it 13 times. So sabbatro, we had 10 year old kids at a glass, flipping our guys off the whole bit. So we had no response. But we get the locker room. The guys are discouraged. And they're throwing their gloves and their sticks. And they're saying, why do we work this hard for five months for this? We didn't lose this badly last year, which is true. And I said, hey, eyeballs, which I got from our Marines friends, eyeballs, which they say snap, they all look up.

They all know this one. And I said, I saw what you saw. We just got our butts handed to us by the nation's best team and a silver platter. And went and dealt with the truth. And it's going to surprise our people saw. We just got our butts handed to us by the nation's best team and a silver platter. And when in doubt, tell the truth and it's going to surprise your people that they, you respect them enough to not sugarcoat anything. Some games, John, you can say the score is not indicative, not that one. They're at 13 or two. That was the gap. That's where we were.

But then I said, I relied back on what I said to you earlier. I said, but that's not what matters. What matters are our values and what are our values here in hockey. And keep in mind, we've been yelling this back and forth. Every workout, every practice, every bus trip, every study table, you name it. They mumble at this time, though, work hard, support your teammates. No, what is it? We start yelling it back and forth. Like we mean it.

Work hard, support your teammates. Again, the two values of here in hockey. And I say, okay, did we do those two things tonight? And they thought about it and they said, actually we did, is it actually you did? All right, I watched you guys the entire game. No one coasters the bench in the last two minutes of a drawing, 13 to two.

Nobody coasters the bench. You all got back on defense. All right, they didn't do that. They started coasting the head 10 goal lead. All right, you guys didn't, that was more impressive. They just support each other. Yes, they did. They supported their goal after every goal, five guys in the ice, 13 goals, that's 65 chances to not support your goalie.

And all the guys 65 times they did it. And no one pointed the fingers, the offense of the defense or anything. So that's right. Those guys quit high five And each other after 10 they got bored you didn't this was heroic we Define ourselves. I don't care what they say in the lobby. I don't care the opponents say I don't care the people say in high school Or at our rank or anything else all it cares the people in this room to find who we are and nobody else

And it's values over victories and your values are rock solid, walk out of here with your head held high. And the lesson there, by the way, and this is very important for corporate America, sales figures and the data, look, I get it, and we had tons of data on our team, but don't put the cart before the horse. If your values don't come before your victories,

when you lose a game, what do you have? If you're winning it all cost program and you lose, you have nothing by definition. If you are always profits ahead of principles and COVID hits, you don't have profits that year. All right, what keeps you there? You don't have principles before COVID, they leave. There's nothing else keeping them there, other than the paycheck. And if the commissions are gone, they're out of there. I want people who are dedicated to the team,

the organization beyond just a paycheck. And by the way, in that front, John, I got married late in life, the lovely Kristi Breigner, got married at 40, and I thought I was dating for 30 years. And here's a tip, if she asked me in the first date, what the hell do you make, you not marry that person. You get into you, man. And someone else is going to make more money. So same thing on the interview.

If you ask about that, so I want to devalue driven guys. And then a year and a half later, I've got too long an answer there. But that actually those values saw us through. They'll see you through a losing streak. When you're in a winning streak, you get a 14 game winning streak. Our third year, same guys didn't cut anybody from that team. That keeps your head on straight.

You don't get blinded by your headlines and your stats. And it's like, I don't care about the winning streak. I care about two things. Are we working hard today? And are we supporting each other? That's all that matters. And that keeps your head on straight during the winning streak. I'm glad you brought up that last piece.

My solo episode this week is on how do you protect your success? And I think a lot of us go into this and we spend our whole lives trying to figure out how to be successful. And along the way, most of us have to take risks to get there, but then oftentimes when you're at that pinnacle, what got you to that point isn't going to get you continued success, nor preserve the success. And I think at that point, a lot of us just stop doing the work. And that's where your success can go down the rabbit hole. But I wanted to... Was shocking speed.

Yes, was shocking speed. Well, I wanted to just take a couple of the points that you made in that last segment because they're important. When I was at L at lows, I got hired to do a job similar to yours. I came in and was asked to take over this department that had the second worst employee engagement scores in the entire company. This is a company with 360,000 employees, and I have the second lowest group. John, I know exactly where you are. And so I went into this and peers

and others were telling me how poor the employees were this or that. And I found out it was none of those things. I found out I had really strong employees. What happened was they weren't being led and they weren't driven by core values. And so some of the things you did were very smart. I think sometimes we go into these jobs or go into situations in our life. We try to make them too complex. You did something very smart by limiting it to two things

that you want to accomplish. Because from there, you can expand upon it, but you need to keep focus. And it's something that I did as well in this job is I tried to make sure that every one of them understood regardless if they were working in a call center or running a data center, how their job impacted the customers, how it impacted the overall money that the firm was making and that they were important. And the second thing I taught them is that

they had a voice. And I remember talking to one of my managers and we were rolling out the strategy that we had come up with and he said, well, how do you want me to do my job? And I go, that is not for me to determine. I can't be here to oversee you, especially since you work on the night shift. What I am looking for you to do as a leader is to take all the knowledge that we've given you and to come back with ownership and you move this forward and lead with your own input, your own enthusiasm. And so you fast forward two years later, we went from...

That's all, John, nice work. Two years later, we went from the second lowest in the company to the second highest in the company. Wow. So what you're saying here, John, that's faster than us. Where does a high school hockey team? So that's very impressive. Well, the other thing I did, and it's something you did

as well, and it's a mistake that I think many leaders make, is oftentimes people are afraid to hire someone smarter than them. They're afraid that person's gonna come in, they're gonna take their job away, they're gonna make them look bad, and I think one of the things that's brought me success, and I think it's something I learned actually from being at the Naval Academy,

is you want to be the dumbest person in the room. If you're the smartest person in your neighborhood or in your environment, it's time to move. And how did that play out for you? Because I think it's a philosophy you used as well. You hit the nail in the head, by the way, you look, tollastoy said it. He said unhappy families can be unhappy in a million different ways and all happy families are the same. And honestly, there's not much new under the sun. If you look back at Cicero and these guys,

the Palo Panician Wars, show me a good unit and I'll share about the same stuff. And the crucial thing that I always hammered home and I hammer it with my speeches as well and I'm sure you do as well. Everything I'm gonna tell you is simple, but none of it's easy and don't confuse those two. All right, it's all simple, but people don't do it or else we wouldn't be able to beat you, because you don't do it. So yeah, here's the playbook, no beat us. So I think you're just talking

about it's simple and it's very hard. They didn't feel connection to the customer, then you feel connection to the bottom line. Great line from Bo about a secretary, Bo Shemekler, about a secretary Mary Passingk. It's not her job to open envelopes and answer emails and answer the phones. It's her job to win big 10 titles. She does it by being the best damn secretary in the big 10. So every day she's at in a Ohio state. That's how her job is perceived. Connect them all to this. You mentioned being intentional about it. To me, the biggest poison in our work lives is drift that I just show up. I do the same thing every day and I try to get out of there at five o'clock. And studies show with that environment, you get about three

and a half hours of actual work done out of eight. And that might be generous, frankly, quiet quitting. It can't happen at a good organization because everyone knows what's going on. You don't want it to happen. Then you mentioned them having a voice. Look, do you want to see sick days go down? Give them responsibility. Look, if I know, if it's just me and no one cares from them there or not, what do I care? What do you care?

If I know that I'm in charge of things and you put them in charge repeatedly, you're on the night shift, I can't make that call. Look, when they're going after a summer been law and president of Obama and everyone else, they're watching the Oval Office, they can't do it or wherever they were. They can't do anything.

They give them the authority on the ground to make those decisions, because who else can make those decisions? All right, I'm deputizing you to make these calls. And our third year is we had a 14 year winny streak, we had two tough losses again, to Trenton three to two, and then to our arch-wival three nothing,

they had to go away from Finland, man. That's cheating. We had 35 shots and no man. That's cheating. We had 35 shots and no goals. That guy was really good. So what do you do? I call up the captain, Chris Fragner, who's now my financial advisor, by the way, and tell him that tomorrow night you guys are going to coach the entire game. The scene's going to coach it.

I didn't see a worthy entire night. They filled out the score sheet. They filled out the roster on the fly. You have to change in a during play. They decided to who's coming off and who's going on during the play and did a great job. We beat a ranked team six, nothing. They beat a ranked team six, nothing. All right. How does drivers at work? I drive you watch. You drive, I watch. Here's the third step. Yikes. I mean, keys in my kids seven and just teach them how to write a bike is scary.

Let go of the seat. You have to do it. And one of my mentors, a camp director, sooner or later, they've got to carve the turkey and paint the porch and they won't do it the way you did it. Sorry. All right. And you got to let them do it. And they'll keep showing up.

What you did there. I hate to tell you, but with your approach, I'm not surprised by the results. I'm really not. First of all, they have to know you care about them beyond the paycheck and you clearly showed that. You put them in charge of a lot of things. That's a lot of faith. And if it's just me, by the way, I'll let myself down very easily.

If I'm not letting the whole team down, that's much harder. If they're all connected to each other, they don't want to let each other down. So that, John, was brilliant leadership. And I hear you might have a book coming out. I can't wait for that one. I'm not killing the ending here. Well, thank you for that promotion. I love it.

The other thing I wanted to pick up on that you said is I wanted to talk about character just for a second. I happen to be interviewing a gentleman named Rory Vaden, a fellow New York Times by selling author similar to you. He hasn't done it seven times like you have, I happen to be interviewing a gentleman named Rory Vaden, a fellow New York Times best selling author similar to you. He hasn't done it seven times like you have, but congratulations.

Give him time, yeah, all right. But he said a comment to me yesterday that was just really profound. We were talking about personal brands and he said your brand will only be as deep as your character is. And I think what you taught the boys is an important lesson because it's the same thing that I tried to tell that organization.

We are only gonna be as good as the character that we choose to live by. And it's those core values that sometimes we tend to overlook that matter so much. So I just wanted to bring that point up too because I think it's an extremely important one. Well, everything and without that, everything else going downhill is not going to work. My mom said it a million times and my players have heard it so many times that my captain's brother who did not play for me, that's not one of his company's core values 15 years later.

The character is what you do when you think no one's watching. If we feel that test, nothing else is going to matter because it's all going to break down. Anyway, if your basement is horrible, go ahead and build a skyscraper, but it's going to fall. It's not going to work. And the military teaches this. And by the way, back to the earlier point, George Patton, a famous tyrant in many ways, perhaps, but it wasn't his great lines. It's never to tell them how to get there, tell them where you need to go, and they'll find their way. But only with character. And we always started with that. To me, it's like a campfire, the vacant analogy, metaphor, 512,

whatever I've got going here, you focus on the campfire, you get the wood right, get the kindling light, and all that stuff. Take care of it. If you've got a good campfire, people are going to be attracted to this. They're going to come around. The number is going to be there. The sales, the cars, the popularity, the press, what all that stuff is going to happen with that campfire. Don't forget what they're coming around for. It's the campfire. It's not all the people around it. Hand out the marshmallows, all you want. That's great. Don't forget the damn wood. The campfire is what you're doing here. If you keep stoking the campfire, don't forget the damn wood. The campfire is what you're doing here. And if you keep still going to campfire,

don't worry about the rest of it. It's going to keep on coming. If you forget the campfire, it's going to go out. And by the way, watch your instant friends disappear very quickly. So to me, that campfire is character. And without that, you don't have a whole hell of a lot. Well, I'm going to jump to another element of this.

And that is, I have lived in Tampa Bay now for 11 years. You could honestly say that over the past 11 years, the Tampa Bay Lightning have probably been the best team in that NHL. And who would have ever thought that a team from Tampa would be the one who did that? But you talk about to John Cooper, who's been the coach that led Tampa Bay to three

back-to-back Stanley Cups, winning two of them. And John says, on bad teams, nobody leads. On good teams, leaders lead. On great teams, everybody leads. It's one thing to say it. But my question for you is, how do you do it? And by the way, you read the thing. Now you did you really, really carefully pull that thing to say it. But my question for you is how do you do it? And by the way, you read the thing, now you did you read it very carefully, pulled out all the best stuff. John Cooper, amazingly enough, was the coax of the Lansing Catholic Central high school hockey team in Michigan, when I was coaching here on. So at one point, we were peers, and now he's winning stand the cups, and I'm free this year. So I guess our careers And now he's winning stand the cups and I'm free this year. So I guess our careers

diverged John But hats off the john I sent his PR guy a book. I hope someone down there gives it to him I'm a great admirer of his I've had friends who played for him But that's leads but here again everything we're saying is simple and none of it's easy It's scary look we got that 14 game winning streak. We lose two games I put the seniors in charge we're playing a ranked team we could go blown up What if it all falls apart or Or they start pointing their fingers at each other? What if they're not organized? What if we lose badly? Now we got a three game losing streak. Now you got a problem. And guess whose fault that is

it's mine. I can't blame them. It's mine. It was my crazy idea to put them in charge. Letting go of the seat when your kid is learning how to ride a bike or hand in the keys to a high school kid a hand in the company for a week to your number two, it's scary. I can't deny it, and you don't really know what's going to happen. You don't. I mean, that's the scary part,

and your kids are out there in high school. I can only wait for that tear. It is undeniably scary, and most do not have the courage to lead this way. This method of leadership, if I can call it that, requires courage. What you did at Lowe's, what I did with the here and hockey team, what John Cooper does in a daily basis of the Tampa Bay Lightning, it takes real guts. Because if it fails, you can't blame

the people you designated that you delegate it to. It's still your failure. It's yours. You know what, if they lost, it's actually me is gonna talk to the end of the news and take the blame for it. My idea, bad idea, it's on me. It's scary, so it's still you, but you know, what's your alternative? The alternative is you try to lead them all. You can't. If you have more than two employees, they outnumber you.

You lose. They gotcha, and they can undermine you in a million ways, including quiet quitting. So that's happening, you're already lost. Well, I think you bring up some good points. And if people didn't watch the Stanley Cup last year, Tampa Bay was completely outmatched by the Avalanche. Avalanche had an incredible team. I thought we were going to get swept. And I think it was John's philosophy and the leaders on the team stepping up saying, we're not going to allow that happened that allowed them to take it to. I think it was six games.

And in retrospect, there were two more that they probably could have won that went to overtime. That's right. Like any overtime game anybody can win. That's very clear. That's a toss up. overtime game anybody can win. That's very clear. That's a toss up. So I was going to jump to you have this third season, you end up winning. I think it was 17 games, which was the most in school history, if I have that correct. That's right. And at the senior year banquet, the players didn't talk about the victories and having the most wins in school history. They talked about the values that you put inside them from the start. And my question here, because we've already covered that,

several times, is what is the influence that this has had on the players now 15 years down the line when you talk to them about how it's influenced their lives? Yeah, that third year, we went from zero wins to seven wins second year, 16 wins at third year or no, second year. Sorry. So we're most improved team in school history twice. That's very hard to do. Third year is 17, four and five or number four in the state number 53 in the nation.

We passed 1,200 and three teams 97% in three years. Same players again. Some good players were added, came out for the team, but I didn't cut anybody from the zero, 22 and three team. They ended up being part of that as well. But yeah, came out for the team, but I didn't cut anybody from the 0-22 and 3 team. They ended up being part of that as well. But yeah, we lost in the playoffs, the team we should have lost, but they were ranked. We outshot them two to one, and we lost in overtime,

because that can, again, from the start, you do not control this stuff, control your effort. Afterwards I said, I'd love you guys. You guys worked hard, sport your teammates, like no one's business, you outshot them 36 to 16, something like that. This stuff happens, and I was getting tier-I, they're getting tier-I'd.

And 20 minutes later, nobody had moved. I realized they're all waiting for the captain to start getting undressed. So layers of leadership worked even then. I didn't tell him that. And Chris Fragner, our star captain, who had a plan for a Michigan, on his way to the shower,

first word spoken, he says, hey, I just want to thank you, Freshman, for filling the water bottles and collecting the pucks and taking all the stats. First word spoke and he says, Hey, I just want to thank you, freshman, for filling the water bottles and collecting the pucks and taking all the stats. You guys were great. And I, when I give speeches, I get choked up even thinking about this.

That's the team you want to play on. Where the best player in the state, in my opinion, first guys you think, are the lowest guys in the totem pole, if you will. And at the bank, whether I was afraid that the upset loss is going to eclipse all that they had done. They didn't talk about the winning streak, they didn't talk about the loss, as you will. And at the bank, when it was afraid that the upset loss is going to eclipse all that they had done. They didn't talk about the winning streak. They didn't talk about the loss. As you said, they talked about how great it felt to be in that locker room where

everyone's got your back and well at a single purpose. And we all felt that. And how much fun it was to be together. And I don't control those speeches. They can save whatever they want. That's when you feel, and by the way, at your bank, which your seniors aren't crying, you screwed up. That's my final. There you go. Thank God this is over. I'm glad hockey's done. That's not good. And likewise, your company bankwits and so on. I want to see some tears. It sounds horrible, but I do. Happy tears only, but I want that emotional connection. And if they have that emotional connection, I always think you have to pay one notch better than the average because people have better than average. You never want to be the highest paying guys in the block

because that's not what we're selling. We're selling a culture. We're selling that you're part of something. We have a mission. If a sense of belonging, we're not drifting here. And if you're in this room, you're important. And that feels good. Well, I think you just hit on the head of the nail,

why 75 to 85% of all employees feel disengaged right now. I think it's start and ends with the company culture that they're sitting in and how they feel valued. It's the whole thing. It really is the whole thing. Well, I'm going to give a shout out to another book because I think when I read yours and I read this one over a decade ago, the two have a lot of complimentary points.

And so I think the two go very well hand in hand. And that is a fellow Naval Academy graduate. I know you wrote the book, It's Your Ship. It's Your Ship. And I think they're both a great examples of using core leadership principles that are easy to understand, to uplift your organization, uplift your life, uplift whatever organization you're part of. I've never met Dan Aberschaff, the author of that, of course.

After this, I'm talking to his former editor, who's my editor, Rick Wolf, I've spoken right behind him at Deloitte University and other. But you know what a scary this is? The damn thing is it works. It works on a naval ship. It works at Loes and it works on a high school pocket team. It works on my class at the University of Michigan. These are very different environments, but again, okay, it's scary, but man, it's consistent. If you have the guts to do it, if you have the guts to do it, that's the biggest thing. Okay, and then John, my last question to you would be, if Reader picks up this book, what do you hope that they get from it?

It's not about hockey. It's not even about sports as you point out early on. It's about culture. The biggest thing is anybody can do this. I mean, that's one of the things. Anybody can do this, anybody can lead stick to your personality. Al Clark, my mentor. I'm a big talker. Obviously, I love to pregame speech. Al Clark walks in and says, well, this would be a good one to win. Yeah. I was the whole speech man. That was the whole thing. Well, I won a 2017 game so you can still be yourself and all that. But basically it's back to having the courage to trust your people.

This is about trust and dare I said, it's the coins it sounds is love. You don't like your people, you don't care about your people, get out of leadership. It's not going to work. It's like your kids. You don't have kids for all the thanks you're going to get. You have your kids because it's what you want to do. It makes your life bigger, basically. It makes your life more purposeful. That's why you should lead. It can be done and it's more craft than art. There are very specific things you can do. It's carbonary more than sculpture is my take. There are things you can do and look, what did I do? I just kept on stealing from all the books I was reading and the mentors I had and all

these great places and you did too. And this stuff is out there, not much new into the sun, but it can be done. And also I hope that it's also fun stories. I said we're turning this into we think a screenplay, so stay tuned on that one. So if you don't care about business, it's still a good story. Okay. And then my last question for you is if someone would like to learn more about you and about this book, what is the best way for them to do that? Very simple, John. Let them lead

by bacon.com. That's let them lead by bacon.com. And there's this thing, of course, on there I've got my TED Talk, my good morning America parents, my podcast. John doesn't know it yet, but it's going to be a guest very soon on my podcast. Poor guy. We've got a lot of we had Jim Hack of the CEO for Motor Company. We've got NCAA winning Southball coach Carol Hutchins. We got a lot of great sound there, but it's a lot of fun. So that's how you find out more about me and for speaking and all that.

It's on there as well. I'd be humbled to be in that type of company. Well, John, thank you so much for being on the show today. I highly encourage the listeners to read this book. I think the thing I liked about it the most was the storytelling that you did in each of the chapters, which really brings the points to life. So thank you again for being on the show.

It's really nice. Thank you. How about that? Thank you for that. I thoroughly enjoyed that interview with John U Bacon. And I wanted to thank John for Craven, Mariner Books and Harper Collins for the honor and privilege of having him here today on the show. Links to all things John will be in the show notes at passionstruck.com.

Please use our website links if you purchase any of the books from the authors that we feature here on the show. It all goes to supporting the show and making it free for our listeners. You two videos are at both John R. Miles and at PassionStruck Clips. Please go check them both out and subscribe. Everties or deals and discount codes are in one convenient place at passionstruck.com slash deals. I'm on LinkedIn and you can also find me

at John R. Miles, both on Instagram and on Twitter. You're about to hear a preview of the PassionStrike podcast I did with Dr. Ethan Cross, who is one of the world's leading experts on controlling the conscious mind, an award-winning professor and bestselling author of the book, Chatter. He teaches in the University of Michigan's top-ranked psychology department and its Ross School of Business, where he founded the emotion and self-control laboratory. We're boarded to the world with this remarkable set of tools or emotions, but we don't get a user's manual that teaches us how to use those tools. So we're just stumbling along and our experiences in the world teach us things,

and sometimes the lessons we learn are really good ones. When it comes to how to manage our emotions, the things our parents and culture teaches us, but sometimes they're not. And so we're not calibrated. And where I see science as being able to really contribute is by helping provide people with those really guidelines for how to optimize the usage of these tools. The fee for this show is that you share it with family and friends when you find something interesting or useful.

If you know someone who's really into hockey or leadership, definitely share today's episode with them. The greatest compliment that you can give us is to share the show with those that you care about. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so that you can live what you listen. And until next time, live life Ashenscroft. you