Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Katherine Morgan Schafler on Control, Perfectionism, and Letting Go | EP 572

Starting point is 00:00:00 Coming up next on Passion Strike. Repetition is how we learn. And we think repetition, like repeating the same mistake over and over again, we think that that's an emblem of our failure. No, that's an emblem of our growth. Repetition can represent failure, but it can also represent learning. Habits need to be in repetition. Thinking of ourselves as people who are strong, capable, good, worthy, loving, free, that identity structure needs some repeating. And by some repeating, I mean, maybe it takes you years. That's okay. That's what it takes for everybody. Welcome to Passion Struck. Hi, I'm your host, Jon R. Miles. And on the show, we decipher

Starting point is 00:00:40 the secrets, tips, and guidance of the world's most inspiring people and turn their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you. Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself. If you're new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays. We have long-form interviews the rest of the week with guests ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders,

Starting point is 00:01:13 visionaries, and athletes. Now, let's go out there and become Passionstruck. Hey, Passionstruck fam, welcome back to episode 572. I am so grateful for the incredible energy, enthusiasm, and dedication that you bring to this community each week. Your commitment to living a purpose-driven and intentional life is what makes the passion-struck movement so powerful, and together we're creating a ripple effect of positive change. Now let me ask you something.

Starting point is 00:01:40 Have you ever felt that your pursuit of excellence leaves you more stressed than satisfied? What if perfectionism isn't a flaw to be fixed, but a strength to be harnessed? Today, we're diving into the transformative and often misunderstood world of perfectionism with Catherine Morgan Schaffler, psychotherapist, speaker, and author of The Perfectionist's Guide to Lucent Control, A Path to peace and power. Catherine's groundbreaking approach challenges everything we think that we know about perfectionism, showing us that it isn't something we need to fix or eradicate. It's a force that can be harnessed for growth, connection, and fulfillment. In our discussion, we'll explore the five types of perfectionists, Classic, Intense, Parisian, Messy, and, and procrastinator, and how understanding

Starting point is 00:02:26 your type can unlock self-awareness and strengthen your relationships. We go into how perfectionism impacts our sense of belonging, self-worth, and wholeness, and why it's so deeply tied to our desire to matter. Catherine discusses her personal journey through a cancer diagnosis which forced her to confront her own need for control and how it shaped her understanding of resilience, compassion, and joy. We discussed practical strategies to shift from self-punishment to self-compassion, creating a healthier, more intentional relationship with perfectionism. And then lastly, we go into how embracing your perfectionism can help you stop

Starting point is 00:03:00 striving for superficial control and start living with real power. Whether you identify as a perfectionist, know someone who does, or simply want to deepen your understanding of how to live more intentionally, this episode will offer insights and actionable tools to help you find peace, embrace your wholeness, and enjoy your life today, not someday. Before we dive into today's episode, let's reflect on the powerful conversation with Shige Oishi we shared earlier this week. Dr. Oishi is a professor of psychology at the University of Chicago and has dedicated

Starting point is 00:03:29 his career to studying happiness, meaning, and culture. And he introduced us to this concept of psychological richness. The idea that a life filled with diverse, novel, and challenging experiences can lead to deeper fulfillment. This is a topic I'm gonna tackle even more deeply in tomorrow's solo episode and how we can apply psychological richness to our work environments.

Starting point is 00:03:50 And if you're ready to take these insights even deeper, don't forget to check out our episode starter packs. Can't believe we have over 570 episodes now and I know it can be overwhelming. So we've curated playlists to help you find just the topic that you need to listen to today. You can find them on Spotify or by visiting passionstruck.com slash starter packs.

Starting point is 00:04:10 For weekly inspiration and actionable tips, be sure to sign up for the Live Intentionally newsletter. It's packed with exclusive content and tools as well as challenges to help you put the lessons from our episodes into practice. And if you prefer watching these conversations, all our episodes are available on our YouTube channels where you can catch the videos and share them with others in your life who are passionate about growth. So now let's get back to uncovering the science, stories, and strategies behind turning perfectionism

Starting point is 00:04:37 from a source of shame into a powerful tool for growth and belonging. Thank you for choosing PassionStruck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life. Now, let that journey begin. I am so excited today to welcome Katherine Morgan Schaffler, the Passion Struck podcast. Welcome Katherine. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. Katherine, the way I normally like to set up these interviews is I'll do a little bit of your background and then we're going to get into later on your terrific book, which

Starting point is 00:05:10 I'm holding here, The Perfectionist's Guide to Losing Control. And I just wanted to give this the praise it deserves because not only is it a Next Big Idea Club book, but Amazon and USA Today recommended it as one of their books to readers. So congratulations on that. Thank you so much. We're all excited about The Perfection's Guide to Losing Control, finding its audience really quickly. So that was wonderful. You have worked with some of the most ambitious, high-ach. Yet one theme is I was looking through your work seems universal. The tension between striving for perfection and a feeling of a

Starting point is 00:05:53 sense of belonging. Can you share how your journey for studying perfectionism began? Yeah. Well, so I always knew I wanted to be a therapist. It's an interesting job to know you want to be as a little kid, but I've always loved listening and I've spent my whole life listening. So what you hear when you listen ends up being a lot what you hear when you listen ends up being a lot in a certain way, but really funnels down to the same universal elements in another way. And I've worked in a lot of clinical settings as a therapist.

Starting point is 00:06:37 I've worked in a rehab. I've worked helping people deal with addictions of all kinds. I worked on site at Google. I had a private practice on Wall Street. I worked in residential treatment with kids who were traumatized and abused and became wards of the state. And in all of these contexts, I saw this universal theme. I heard the themes of perfectionism and they weren't always coming from a place that was

Starting point is 00:07:07 unhealthy. What I noticed was that perfectionism is a power and like any power, it has a dichotomous nature, right? So it can be constructive or destructive. And I became really interested in the ways in which it is constructive and why we don't talk about that more. Because in the research world, we've been talking about that for years. Decades of research has focused on what academics call adaptive perfectionism, when your perfectionism

Starting point is 00:07:43 is there to help you and heal you, right? As opposed to maladaptive, which is when the perfectionism we all kind of think about with the kind of perfectionism that stalls you and hurts you. And so the perfectionist guide to losing control is about how to understand this power that you have as a perfectionist to not waste time and energy trying to not be a perfectionist because that doesn't work and to lean more into adaptive ways of being your whole, full self. And the book is really written, as I was reading it, more towards women, but it's obviously universally applicable. But you describe perfectionism as a woman's attempt to feel whole in a world that often expects her to minimize herself.

Starting point is 00:08:35 And my question to you is how can we define wholeness in a way that honors ambition while freeing us from the need to overperform or over control? I wouldn't say perfectionism is a woman's attempt. I just think it is a gender term. So women and men are both impacted negatively by perfectionistic standards, but it unfolds in different ways. And I could write a whole book about perfectionism for men.

Starting point is 00:09:07 For example, one of the constructs I talk about in the book is emotional perfectionism. We tend to think of perfectionism in this one myopic way of behaviorally manifesting itself of like, I like all the pens in a row. I like all the towels to be straight. And what I noticed in my work is perfectionism is kaleidoscopic. It shows up in a million different ways. And one of them is emotional perfectionism. And emotional perfectionism is like when you wanna feel

Starting point is 00:09:38 what you perceive to be the perfect way about something. And that doesn't mean happy all the time. It means that we're all kind of walking around with these pie charts, hovering over our minds about how angry you're supposed to be versus grateful versus solutions oriented versus et cetera. And one of the things that I think a lot of men feel when it comes to emotional perfectionism is you're not allowed to feel unsure. You're not allowed to cry.

Starting point is 00:10:13 You're not allowed to need nurturing warmth, guidance, attention. It's a very rigid expectation culturally that we place upon men and it has really detrimental effects. And so what I say in the book is this affects both men and women, but very differently. And the way it affects women is that women are kind of called perfectionists as a way to regulate their power and authority. Like if a woman is very much like, I don't like it that way, I want it this way.

Starting point is 00:10:54 At work, she might be called a perfectionist and told to kind of balance out, don't sweat the small stuff, all these little directives that are actually about not taking ownership over an idea or a vision, whereas a man who does the same thing might be called a visionary. So when you think about male perfectionists, you might think of like a James Cameron or Gordon Ramsay or Steve Jobs, who were just genius visionaries, wanted things in a very particular way, in a very particular style.

Starting point is 00:11:28 And when you think about female perfectionists, you might think of like a Martha Stewart or Marie Kondo, like women who are allowed to be public about their perfectionistic standards, but only if it is expressed through archetypal homemaker interests that are not in competition with men. Because if you're not doing that, then otherwise you're sort of like the Anna Wintour, the editor of Vogue or Serena Williams. You're a difficult woman or you're just not balanced enough. You're not maternal enough.

Starting point is 00:12:04 You're fill in the blank, not enough of something. So that kind of, I don't know if that answers your question, but that is what the difference is in the term. I think, I don't know if you feel this way, John, but I think language is such an immediate locator for gender performance expectations. And you can learn a lot about a culture by the language that we use,

Starting point is 00:12:28 like words that we have for things, but you can learn a lot more by the absence of words, right? So there's a lot of language around being called like recovering perfectionists. I'm a recovering perfectionist. It's not something that I often hear men say, if at all. When you use the term strong-minded, that's really a descriptor for femininity. You don't say, watch out for him. He's a strong-minded man because that descriptor gains a superfluous quality when you're talking about men. And the idea there is like, well, men are supposed to be strong-minded. You know, men are supposed to know what they want.

Starting point is 00:13:07 And the subtext of that subtext is like women aren't, you know? And so it's like, even like, do you know the phrase resting bitch face? Yeah, of course. Okay. Well, there's no resting jerk face, right? For a reason, because women are expected to be palatable and pleasing all the time. And when they display a neutral facial expression, there's a punishment for that. And it's kind of jokey jokey, you know, no one's really being punished, but it's not

Starting point is 00:13:41 really jokey jokey, you know? Like there's no name for that for men because the message is like, you're not supposed to, you don't need to be that all the time. And so perfectionist is like, let me blow the whistle on this term. If you're an ambitious woman seeking power, don't allow yourself to be called a perfectionist in a kind of derogatory way and don't do that to yourself either. You have a vision, it's important to you, you want to execute it in a certain way, that's okay.

Starting point is 00:14:16 Thank you for going into that and I do agree that language, especially in different environments, tends to play significantly different roles between genders. And I mean, I've seen it play out so many times during my professional career. So you have done a lot of work on empathetic accuracy, which delves into our ability to sense emotional landscapes and how we connect with others, if I understand it correctly. How does that skill intersect with perfectionism? I describe five types of perfectionists in the Perfectionist Guide to Loosen Control. And one of them is the Parisian perfectionist.

Starting point is 00:14:56 And that's someone, all perfectionists are seeking an ideal. And the Parisian perfectionist is seeking ideal connections with other people. And there are pros and cons to each type of perfectionist is seeking ideal connections with other people. And there are pros and cons to each type of perfectionist, just like there's pros and cons to the perfectionism, perfectionist construct in general. And I think if you're someone who really, the pros of being a Parisian perfectionist are like, you're a naturally warm person. You have empathy pretty easily. You can put yourself in someone else's shoes and get a good sense of what they might be feeling. You go out of your way to help people feel included,

Starting point is 00:15:34 you're naturally inclusive. And the cons of that particular perfectionist profile are like, sometimes you want connection so badly that you try to take shortcuts to it and you people please instead of engaging in authentic connection. And so if you're really good at empathic accuracy, which is you can accurately read the room, right? Whether it's a group of people room, right? Whether it's a group of people or one person, you can pretty accurately understand what someone is feeling because you can feel it too. And you know, the colloquial ways we describe empathic accuracy are like feeling someone's eyes on you from across the room or like you walk into a room. I don't know if this has ever happened to you and you could just like feel the tension in the room. You know, the couple or something tense

Starting point is 00:16:28 just happened. And so I studied that phenomenon because I think it's so interesting how people vary in their ability to feel what other people are feeling and can we get better at doing that? And the people who are naturally good at it and don't know it, like how much do they understand, oh, this person is upset, so let me work very hard to help them feel better. And in doing that, you kind of can abandon yourself sometimes because it's like that's not your job to attend to the other person's emotional landscape. And so that's how it intersects with perfectionism because if you want perfect connections with people and you can feel that they're not connected with you or disconnected from themselves or

Starting point is 00:17:24 sad or whatever, you can get into these really kind of codependent dynamics where you're trying to do the emotional labor for two people or a system of people like a family or a team at work when that's not your job, nor can you control it, right? Perfectionist guide to losing control, not maintaining control. Yeah, it's interesting. I interviewed Alison Woodbrooks last week, who's a professor at Harvard Business School, who focuses on kind of the art of conversation.

Starting point is 00:17:56 And she said something to me about when we're talking to someone, it really has this duality to it that we either feel seen or we feel unseen. What you were just talking about and reading the room and emotions and everything else kind of brought that up to me. Is there a connection between our communication and how others communicate with us and perfectionism? I mean, I think there are lots of ways in which perfectionism shows up.

Starting point is 00:18:31 And if you want to be understood in the way that you're describing, you might over index on perfectly articulating what you're trying to say and over index on the language that you're using at the expense of just allowing your energy and who you are to kind of also come into the room, right? And the way I describe this in the book is like when we think of moments that are perfect or when we perfectly connect to someone, when I listen to people describe those moments, they are not describing flawlessness. They are describing wholeness. Right? So a perfect moment is a moment which is already whole. If you take perfect back to its Latin root, you get per facere, completely done.

Starting point is 00:19:30 So when we describe something as perfect, we're not saying it's flawless. We're saying that's completely whole. I don't need to add anything to that to make it better. And so one of the discoveries that I've made in my work is that perfectionists aren't actually seeking flawlessness. They're seeking wholeness. That sense that like, this, I wouldn't want to change this thing at all. So if you think of like, when we say someone's a perfect stranger, we're not saying like, oh, she was a flawless stranger. We're saying she's a complete stranger to me. And when you think of someone's laugh that you love, you know, that laugh is perfect. Nobody in the history of Earth is like,

Starting point is 00:20:12 oh, if they just rolled their giggle a little more at the end, that laugh would be perfect. Right? You're like, that's perfect. And so understanding that when you're communicating with someone and in a conversation with someone, flawlessness has nothing to do with it and is often actually a blocked connection. What the other person is looking for is intimacy. And the easiest definition I've ever heard of intimacy is like, into me see. Intimacy from my view is just when someone sees

Starting point is 00:20:46 something real about you and or you see something real about them. So if I were to somehow like lift up my computer and show you my bedside table right now, that would be a very intimate gesture because the things that I have on my bedside table are real, right? It's not staged. It's intimate.

Starting point is 00:21:09 And I think when thinking about conversations and connection, allowing there to be a little bit of intimacy as you feel comfortable if the person is safe and all of that other stuff is in place, is a better way to think about how to have a successful quote unquote conversation than like, how do I articulate myself perfectly? I love how you describe that intimacy. The other thing I think about when I, when I think about deep conversations is almost Louise Hayes mirror work, except in her work, it's really putting a mirror against up against yourself. And I think in real deep conversation, intimate conversation, it's putting

Starting point is 00:21:59 up a mirror to each other. Because when we really listen to someone, when we truly are intimate about their lives, we see aspects of our own story in theirs, even though our stories could be completely different, there's still an underlying connection to standards or conditions that we all feel, so to speak. I love that. Yeah, exactly. Well said. Conditions that we all feel so to speak. I love that. Yeah exactly well said

Starting point is 00:22:28 So I never know how these interviews are gonna go I was gonna ask you a question to describe the five different types of perfectionists But you kind of already went into one So I'm gonna change away my approach and I'm gonna go to into each one of them and ask you a question about that. All right perfectly fine Okay, so You have five different types of perfectionist. You talked about the second one, which is the Parisian perfectionist you start out with the classical perfectionist who values structure and self-discipline

Starting point is 00:23:02 but can sometimes it come across as rigid or unapproachable. How can someone with this type of perfectionism balance their strengths like reliability or perhaps attention to detail without letting their need for structure isolate them from others around them? Such a good question, and I bring up the different perfectionist profiles to help people understand what they're naturally good at and where they can easily offer other people help and where they naturally struggle and where they would do well to ask for help.

Starting point is 00:23:45 So the way a classic perfectionist can enjoy their perfectionism without isolating themselves in a pocket of like, if you want something well, do you got to do it yourself, is to understand that the strengths of that profile of the classic perfectionist. They do what they say they're going to do when they say they're going to do it in the way that they said that they would do it. They're so reliable, so dependable, you know, as you brought up just naturally infused structure into any situation that they're in. And the cons are that sometimes that can create a

Starting point is 00:24:23 transactional feel from the people around you where they feel like they know a lot of facts about you, but they don't really know who you are. And the classic perfectionists themselves can feel kind of taken for granted because it's like, oh, she always plans the vacation or they always do the deck. So let's just let them do it. And it's like, just because you like doing something doesn't mean it's not work. It doesn't mean you don't want acknowledgement for that work.

Starting point is 00:24:51 So I think, you know, asking for help in the sense of letting people know you a little more, letting yourself feel more connected, saying that you would like appreciation is one way to start creating connections. All of these profiles are complementary. So like a classic perfectionist and a Parisian perfectionist would do very well to link up because Parisian perfectionists are so indexed on relationships and connection that they're not necessarily the most structured people.

Starting point is 00:25:30 And classic perfectionists are. And like when you're in connection with somebody, there's naturally a little osmosis and diffusion happening. So this is an important point that I really want to say, This is an important point that I really want to say. You don't heal by learning how to edit yourself. You heal by learning how to be who you are in the world. I didn't write this book so that people can identify their weaknesses and then try to churn those weaknesses into strengths and be good at all things at all times for all people. and then try to churn those weaknesses into strengths and be good at all things at all times for all people.

Starting point is 00:26:05 I wrote the book so that people could understand their blind spots and understand, oh, I need help with this. And I'm not gonna try to make this a strength because doing that comes at the opportunity cost of like not enjoying my strengths, which are so easy for me. So let me just ask for help on this. And also like as a classic perfectionist you can

Starting point is 00:26:32 give help really easily and that helps people feel connected to you and it's not a heavy lift for you because you do it so well and easily. So there's a complementary system happening here. The third one, I was really surprised by the name when I first read it, the procrastinator perfectionist, because I typically don't think of perfectionists as procrastinators, but I can see how it happens when people freeze when it comes to starting new things due to their failure or fear of failure or fear of loss.

Starting point is 00:27:09 So they're like professional perfectionists can be professional procrastinators because like, you know, this type wants the thing to be perfect, the conditions to be perfect before they start. And the strengths of procrastinator perfectionists are they're such thoughtful people. They're so well prepared. They can see a situation from a 360 degree angle. And the cons, as you're saying, are like they can spill past the point of diminishing returns on their preparative measures and they never actually execute on the thing they most want

Starting point is 00:27:43 to do. And that's such a painful experience to know you want to do something, know you would be good at it, know you're ready, and just feel stuck. For me, it's something I talk about here all the time. Bob Sutton, a Stanford professor, wrote this great book on how to close the gap between knowing and doing. And to me, that's kind of what resonated here. It's kind of the mindset that staying stuck is a greater risk than taking imperfect action or something like that is what I was playing around with in my mind when I was trying to go through this concept. Yeah, which brings us to the fourth one, which is the messy perfectionist who thrives on new beginnings but struggles with follow through, often putting the blame on

Starting point is 00:28:36 themselves when things fall apart. So how can someone who's a messy perfectionist embrace How can someone who's a messy perfectionist embrace their creativity and adaptability while working within the real world constraints of things like time, resources, et cetera? Right. Well, the same way everyone else can, which is understand where you need help and get it. Right? So messy perfectionists are in love with the beginning of anything. Right? Perfectionism doesn't just happen at work or in a traditional achievement context like

Starting point is 00:29:12 grades. It can happen in any context. It's a very fluid construct. So you can be a messy perfectionist. For example, when it comes to dating, messy perfectionists are what I call start happy. They love starting something new. I would say they push through the anxiety of it, but there is no anxiety of it for them. They're the counterpart to the procrastinator perfectionist. And so the strengths of that is messy perfectionists, naturally enthusiastic people, superstar idea generators. You want a name for a podcast and messy perfectionists can come up with 50 in like an hour easily, half an hour. And they just have all this momentum and

Starting point is 00:29:52 excitement and contagious energy around starting and launching a project and they cast such wide nets. But if you're not managing this perfectionism, the negative side is that you say yes to a million things without giving yourself the chance to commit to any of it because you're spreading yourself too thin. And then when you hit the inevitable tedium of a process, if we go back to our dating example, you're on like the fourth date and you're noticing like this person chews quite loudly or something starts irking you. Like messy perfectionists can bolt, they run. Or like in a work example, if you're launching a business and then you have to file a professional license with the state and you're like, this is boring. I don't want to do this. I don't know how to do this. It's just like your energy deflates upon itself. And you get this sense if you're not

Starting point is 00:30:53 aware of your tendencies to make up a story in your head about why that's happening. And the story is a negative self-narrative. And it goes something like, well, I must just not care enough. I must not be disciplined enough. Nobody takes me seriously. I must just not be smart enough. I'll never get my stuff together. This isn't going to happen for me. I might as well give up. And it's so difficult to contend with that. Whereas like a messy perfectionist, get the project started, then get a procrastinator perfectionist or one of the other kinds of perfectionists in the mix,

Starting point is 00:31:30 someone who's naturally structured and it's gonna help you to see the project through. I identify, for example, mostly as a messy perfectionist, which is why I have zero interest in self publishing any of my books, because I need a team of people around me to help bring the project to conclusion and worry about things that are very detail-oriented like I don't even know the language to use for like binding the book and sending it to

Starting point is 00:31:58 this factory, whatever else, like no thanks. I would like a publisher to do that. I would like my agent to help me, you know, share the idea with other people once I generate it and once I write it. Like then I just do, I just finish the rest by getting a ton of help constantly, you know. I absolutely see having gone through the process, what you mean. I would either have to go down the traditional publishing or the hybrid publishing to get it done for the exact reasons that you just brought up. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:32:31 And someone asked me on a panel once like, so how did you decide to go with the publisher self and not self publish? And I could not stop laughing because I was like, I just publishers do so much work and agents and there's so much behind the scenes stuff that is so hard and tedious and and like doing that in addition to the creative work of putting something out into the world. And I don't want to learn how, because I don't need to. Because you can have people who are very good at that and who love doing that and for whom that is a strength and could do that really easily. You can have those people help you to do it. And you can help them by saying, here's a great book. Can you bind it and put a barcode on it

Starting point is 00:33:20 and get it into Barnes and Nobles and do all the stuff that I have zero interest in doing. And Catherine, that brings us to the last one, the intense perfectionist who's laser focused on their vision, often struggling with anger or frustration when things don't go as planned. And as I was reading this type, it made me think of Steve Jobs. Yeah, because he was someone who was so laser focused on his vision. He didn't give a hoot about likeability. That was like the last thing from his mind. So if you're and this is a type in the fortune 50 world that I existed in I saw a lot of this And you see a lot of it. I think in entrepreneurs, too. So how can someone if they're an intense perfectionist entrepreneurs too. So how can someone, if they're an intense perfectionist, balance their drive for results

Starting point is 00:34:09 with the need for collaborating and having empathy on others, which typically can be lacking? Yeah. So intense perfectionist pros side are exactly that. They don't care so much about being liked by others, which tends to help them professionally and hurt them personally. But when you don't care so much, when you're not fixated on people liking you and winning a popularity contest, it's very easy for you to be direct. Often we get into a politeness contest with people because we don't want to hurt their feelings or we don't want to

Starting point is 00:34:45 be perceived in a certain way. We're focused on impression management. Intense perfectionists have no time for that. And that's really helpful in creating momentum around a project and infusing efficiency into something. And, you know, as you said, the con side to this is that they can sometimes lose sight of the bigger picture, right? So an intense perfectionist might get the goal, they will get the goal done, but it's like at what cost. And sometimes the ends don't justify the means and intense perfectionist not managing their perfectionism can forget that.

Starting point is 00:35:26 So it's like, great, you hit all your Q3 goals and next quarter half your team is going to quit because they are all so miserable. Or great, everyone's at Thanksgiving on time and dressed in the clothes you wanted them to wear and the table looks beautiful and the food tastes delicious. But did you notice nobody's laughing? Did you notice like you can hear forks scraping on the plates? Cause nobody's feeling any sense of spontaneity

Starting point is 00:35:52 or connection or warmth because your goal wasn't those things. Your goal was to, you know, have some kind of like concrete vision of what you think the moment is supposed to be. And so to answer your question, I mean, I'm going to bore you because it's the same answer as all the other ones, but it's understand where you need help. You need help remembering that relationships matter and successful outcomes that are sustainable

Starting point is 00:36:19 are built on sustainable, healthy connections with other people. Yeah, I hope if you look at the Harvard study of adult aging or if you look into self-determination theory, they both showcase how important relationships are to us and our overall wellbeing. So absolutely plays into our sense of mattering and belongingness regardless of what type you are. I'm gonna switch the conversation a little bit on you.

Starting point is 00:36:52 Okay, I was just gonna highlight Dr. Bruce Parry's research. He's a researcher whom I love and admire very much. I talk about this in the Perfectionist Guide to Losing Control, but his research is about how nothing impacts your mental health more than the quality of connections you have with other people, which he calls relational wealth. So right now you're either living on a spectrum of relational wealth or relational poverty, and where you are on that spectrum has a bigger determining factor

Starting point is 00:37:21 of your mental health more than your socioeconomic status, more than whether or not you do or don't have a mental health disorder, more than the difficulty of what you're going through right now is. Connection with other people is the thing that... Like people say, time heals all wounds. No, that's a myth. Connection heals all wounds. And so the sense of connectedness and relational wealth is such a game changer to understand that. Well, thank you for sharing that. And where I wanted to go, which is a little bit different direction, I had a lot of impact in my life from cancer. And my, earlier this year,

Starting point is 00:38:06 I lost my sister to pancreatic cancer. And anytime who I, that I see someone who's gone through it, it's kind of like the ultimate test of losing control, because it's a very difficult situation to control the outcome, no matter how much you want a certain outcome to be the one that you achieve. You've personally spoken about your own cancer diagnosis

Starting point is 00:38:33 as a disruption rather than using the word itself. And as I've read and listened to you talk about it, it kind of forced you to confront your independence on control. How did that experience shift your own understanding of perfectionism and control? And how has it shaped not only the message of the book, but your message going forward? I'm sorry to hear about your sister. What was her name?

Starting point is 00:39:02 Caroline. Caroline. That's my sister's name. I used to call her Caroline and she hated it. And she would always bring me back to Caroline. But the reason I did it is my, us three siblings were named after the Kennedy kids. So John, John, Caroline, Patrick, but Caroline. So I would always kind of jokingly say Caroline because of that. And for whatever reason she didn't like it. But

Starting point is 00:39:27 Wow. Patrick Kennedy also died as a young baby. So that's interesting that your parents named all three of you after all three of the Kennedys. I call my sister, Carl's, because she doesn't like the name Caroline either. It's like when we use our real names with our siblings, it's like, what did I do? It's that closeness, which makes me feel the loss for you so much more. So when I was diagnosed, there was a really high treatment rate. It was like 95%. And so I wasn't necessarily worried about overly consumed with dying, though every single time that I needed treatment, it was like, well, we'll do this and then that will nip this in the bud. And then that didn't work. And it was like, I was in the 1% for whom that doesn't work. And then we did another

Starting point is 00:40:19 thing and it was like the 1% for whom that doesn't work. And when you hear something like 95% treatment rate, you forget that that means there's a 5% fatality rate. And so, you know, there's just a confusing moment. For me, it was more about being 30. I was 33 at the time and I had just been married and my partner and I really wanted to have kids. And I felt like, oh, I might not be able to have kids. And I didn't have time to freeze my eggs before

Starting point is 00:40:55 I did chemotherapy. And so a lot of the themes of the book about self-worth and understanding that you are a whole human being worthy of all the love, freedom, dignity, connection, and joy that any version of you, the most accomplished version of you could ever be worthy of. You're worthy of all those things now, just because you're a human being, right? You don't become more worthy because you get really good grades or because you lost weight or gained weight or because you learned to make people laugh or in my case, because you can have a child. And I intellectually knew that, but your feelings don't give a shit about your intellect sometimes is my personal experience. And so it was like a lot of reconciling with, can I still be like a good wife? of reconciling with can I still be like a good wife? Can I still be worthy of the life that I dreamt up for myself if I can't do this thing that I have always longed to do? And I think sometimes people feel variations of that, like when you get fired or if you go through a divorce or if this one part of your identity is threatened in some way. And for me, it was about understanding, and I hate the cliche of it,

Starting point is 00:42:13 how much I was over-indexed on control by losing so much of it in the span of two weeks. You know, chemotherapy is like six hours a day. And so I had to really call my professional life to the things that were absolutely essential, which was running my practice, and not doing any of these other things that I had been, you know, worked for years for the opportunity to do, and to say, no, I can't, I'm sorry.

Starting point is 00:42:42 And I'm also a very private person, so I wasn't telling people why at that time. It was just a lot of working for something for years. And the trajectory was like an X. It was like right at that moment that my career started skyrocketing. I had to say no to everything. And I just always thought I was disciplined or that I had a lot of ambition. I didn't think of myself as a controlling person, but I really was like trying to painstakingly control my life so that I could have as much collect as much goals. In as little as time as possible and be really efficient about living, which, which as I say it now sounds so silly.

Starting point is 00:43:26 And that was really hard for me to acknowledge because I think of myself as someone who's self-aware and who stays in the vein of this work as a therapist. And I just had this big fat blind spot to how much I was controlling my life, the relationships in my life, how much I put myself worth into external markers, like whether or not I could have kids or how much money I was making or whatever else. And so, you know, life helped me out in a strange way by doing everything upside down. And it just lost control, you know? And another way to say that is you surrender to something bigger than yourself. And I position in the book,

Starting point is 00:44:18 like the opposite of control is really power. And power is always internally sourced and control is always externally sourced. And that's how you can tell the difference between the two. And so in losing control, I was able to better connect to the power that was always there, but that I was just letting it collect dust a little bit.

Starting point is 00:44:40 And I think we all have these seasons of our life where we just forget what we know, or maybe we didn't learn it in the first place. And the thing that you're so good at, you let it sit on a shelf because you're trying to be better at the thing that is hard for you, or the thing that you have inside of you that will calibrate and do so much of the work for you, you minimize because you can't quantify it, you can't measure it, you can't see it, you can't taste it. It's just something that you can feel like be in touch with.

Starting point is 00:45:18 And to me, it's like timelines and bank accounts or treatment rates or things that are quantifiable are so much more of a comfort when you're scared. It's like, let me see the numbers going up or the numbers going down. And to have a nonlinear process, which healing always is, is never linear, is really scary. It absolutely is.

Starting point is 00:45:42 And when I think back upon Carolyn's journey, she was extremely driven. She went to Columbia like you did and had a thriving career. But she told me that throughout her life until the very end, she always felt something was missing like she wasn't doing what she was really called to do. And I think two pivotal things happened to her. She's, we were all raised Catholic, but a decade or so ago, she became a Buddhist and really, really immersed herself in the study. And I think her Buddhist beliefs and letting go helped her navigate her

Starting point is 00:46:21 cancer really in a profound way. And then her way of dealing with the repeated chemotherapy was she decided to go back to school in the midst of all of this and got a master's in social work. And so she kind of poured herself into that and wanting to help people. That was her calling? That was her calling. And she really felt immense gratitude that she got to do that. Even though it was for a short time, she felt like the lens that she was able to talk to people was much different because of her having to face her own mortality. And she ended up saving a number of teenagers' lives who were contemplating suicide or help

Starting point is 00:47:03 people who were navigating their own illnesses. Think about how to approach it in a different way. That's so beautiful. I love that. That's very inspiring. I'm not gonna forget that. And I think the lesson there is like, when you're doing what you're called for

Starting point is 00:47:19 or what you really love, your worst day of doing that is going to be better than your best day of living a life which doesn't feel like it belongs to you. You know. I'm 100%. That's what the whole Passionist Rock podcast is all about. Yeah. So I, we have spent so much time talking about the first half of your book and I had originally oriented the whole conversation to be discussing more about the first half of your book. And I had originally oriented the whole conversation to be discussing more of the back half of the book, because to me, that's where you get to put all of

Starting point is 00:47:52 your teachings into practice. And I want to jump to chapter five and I want to read something to you to set it up. In this chapter, you write clients use the word stuck to describe themselves as often as therapists say boundaries. Occasionally we're stuck because we're genuinely confused about what's happening and what to do about it. But that kind of confusion is rare. Nine times out of 10, and I find this to be so true, we know exactly what to do to improve our lives. And yet we struggle to do it. The reason we're struggling is that we're engaged in a cycle of self punishment,

Starting point is 00:48:26 which is what this chapter is all about. When you continue to use self punishment as a strategy for positive change, you precision yourself in a type of, I love this word, psychiel purgatory, doomed to repeat the same mistakes over and over while hating yourself for it every time. You know, you're stuck. You want to generate different outcomes. You are in fact desperate to generate different outcomes, yet you repeatedly make the same negative choices.

Starting point is 00:48:53 And on this podcast, I talk about all the time the power of choices, especially our micro choices, and they lead you either into a valley of doom or a waterfall of greatness. But as you describe it, this downward loop of self-punishment is a painful spiral and it really is. And then you go into the story of Ava and I was hoping since I gave you that setup, maybe you can just quickly go through Ava's story and talk about this powerful concept. Sure, thank you for reading that. So these stories are fictionalized because they're not my stories to tell. I don't talk about my clients' lives in the book,

Starting point is 00:49:32 but they are generated from the sort of kernel of truth and dynamic that appears all the time in my work. And so when I worked in a rehab as a group counselor, it was not that uncommon for someone to show up to therapy intoxicated or under the influence, especially because a lot of my work was in early recovery. And so Ava is this client who at the end of our group, I typically have people go around in a circle and say something that they heard someone

Starting point is 00:50:06 else say that stuck with them. And Ava, she let go of that and just confessed to the group that she was intoxicated, she was drinking before group, and she plans on getting intoxicated more after group. And this is what's called in the therapy world, a last minute bomb. It's when your client says something very important or otherwise urgent when there is no time for you to discuss this thing. And it happens all the time.

Starting point is 00:50:40 And I see it as a really healthy gesture because it's like, I really wanna talk to you about this but I'm too scared to do anything other than bring it up. And usually it's like, the therapist brings it up at the next session and it's productive. In this case, I asked everyone to leave and for Ava to stay and she knows what she needs to do and what she needs to do. And what all she wants to do is to take a hot bath. She just wants to go home. Her house is a 15 minute walk away from the rehab center and she just wants to take a hot bath. But she doesn't feel entitled to do that because in her view, she effed everything up. And so she's going to go out and drink more because

Starting point is 00:51:22 she is in this mentality of, I already ruined it. So I don't deserve to do the thing that a healthy person would do. And I said, sometimes what I ask people when they make a mistake in recovering and have a relapse is like, what would you do in this moment if you were five years sober? What would a person who's five years sober do with these feelings they're feeling? And the person knows, right? And she said, I would just take a bath. I've been cold all day. And so something as simple as taking a bath, Ava is not going to do because taking a bath

Starting point is 00:51:57 is for someone who didn't just mess up. Taking a bath is for someone who's smart and healthy, which she has decided she is not. And so she's in a cycle of punishment. And to me, I define a punishment as doing something you know is going to hurt you or denying yourself something you know is going to help you. And if I could wave a magic wand and get the reader of the Perfectionist Guide to Losing Control or the listeners of your podcast to just hear one thing out of all the things I'm yipping about. It is that punishment doesn't work. Personal accountability works, discipline works, rehabilitation works, and natural consequences

Starting point is 00:52:35 unfolding work. Those are all very effective strategies for change. Punishment is not. Punishment not only doesn't work, it makes everything worse. And the whole grand plan there is I'm going to make myself feel so pained about this situation that it's going to motivate me to never be in this situation again. And so you're trying to heal yourself by hurting yourself. And when you think of the times that you've made the healthiest decisions, the most right decisions, the decisions that you feel are most reflective of who you are, your strongest

Starting point is 00:53:13 best self, you have made those decisions because you are in touch with a sense of strength and goodness inside yourself. There's a part of you that says, I'm a good person and I'm capable of good things and I can do this and I deserve this. So you make good decisions when you feel good. And when you feel bad, which punishment is what that's all punishment does. It's that's how you can tell if you're punishing yourself because the goal of the punishment is to create pain. And that's how you can tell if you're punishing someone else too, like the silent treatment punishment, your goal is to make someone feel bad. When you feel bad, you make decisions that aren't the best, brightest, boldest decisions.

Starting point is 00:53:56 When you feel bad, you make decisions that make you feel, when you feel bad, you are not feeling strong. You're feeling weak, right? And so you're like, well, it might as well or already ruined it, or you just have this defeatist attitude. And so I explain what happens to Ava in the rest of that chapter. And I think we all have like an Ava inside of us. That's like, I know what the right thing to do is, but I already ruined it. People do this all the time when they're trying to do a goal

Starting point is 00:54:25 and they have like those four golden days of January 1st and 2nd and January 3rd and January 4th and I'm on it and this year is different. And then January 5th comes and they take a backwards step back and they're like, well, now I'm going to make this a whole narrative about how I'm a failure and I'm not a good person and I don't deserve to feel good because look, I couldn't even do it for five days." And then you start this punitive self-talk and all this punishment, and then you do the exact thing that you've been trying and working hard to not do. And it's like, look, relapsing, taking step backwards, that's a part of growth. You can't... Repetition is how we learn. And we think repetition, like repeating the same mistake over and over again,

Starting point is 00:55:15 we think that that's an emblem of our failure. No, that's an emblem of our growth. Repetition can represent failure, but it can also represent learning. We need repetition to learn. And we hate that about learning. We just want someone to tell us the definition of word, of a word, and then forever somehow memorize it and know it. But that's not how it works. I can't even remember the restaurant I went to last week. It's on the tip of my tongue. I might need to have some repetition of that for a while. Habits need to be in repetition. Thinking of ourselves as people who are strong, capable, good, worthy, loving, free, that

Starting point is 00:55:53 identity structure needs some repeating. By some repeating, I mean, maybe it takes you years. That's okay. That's what it takes for everybody. Well, Catherine, thank you so much for sharing that. And I'm going to have to wrap up here because I know you need to go, but this is one of those episodes where I wish I had another hour with you because there are a few things. We just talked about self-punishment, but there are a few things I just want to give to the audience on why they

Starting point is 00:56:21 should buy this book. Two of my favorite chapters were chapter seven and chapter eight. In chapter seven, Katherine goes into 10 key perspective shifts to help you find the success you're looking for. And in chapter eight, she goes through eight behavioral strategies to help each type of perfectionist. So definitely encourage you to buy the book to learn about those things. And one of my favorite things that you talk about in the book is perfectionism is a power. And to me, it's this whole idea that we're already whole, not because of what we do, but because of who we are. And embracing this belief can deepen our sense of belonging.

Starting point is 00:57:05 And we shouldn't look at perfectionism as a negative aspect to us, but as a strength, we just need to learn how to harness. So with that, what is the best way for listeners to learn more about you? Yes, well, thank you so much for having me and sharing your hard-won platform with me. You're so easy to talk to. I loved this, and I also wish we had another. Yes, well, thank you so much for having me and sharing your hard-won platform with me.

Starting point is 00:57:25 You're so easy to talk to. I loved this and I also wish we had another, I'm going to call it three hours because I can, you know, I think reading a book by a therapist and going to actual therapy are very different things, but I tried my best to punch like two years of therapy into a book of universal themes that whether you identify as a perfectionist or not, like they're going to be salient for you in some way. At least they have been for me in my life.

Starting point is 00:57:54 And the whole book is really like a container space for myself. It's like a ringing bell for me to help remember the things that I know. I feel like so much of our personal work, you could tell me if you disagree or not, is like just 90% of the work is just remembering what you know. You know what I mean? But we can fall into these moments of amnesia when it comes to this stuff. You can find me at my website, katherinmorgorganShaffler.com. I'm also on Instagram at Katherine Morgan Shaffler. And you can take a quiz, a fun, not empirically validated one minute online personality quiz to find out what your perfectionist profile is at perfectionistguide.com or in any of the other

Starting point is 00:58:39 places I just said. And the book is called The Perfectionist's Guide to Losing Control, A Path to Peace and Power, and it's available in hardcover, paperback, on Audible, at all the places that you can buy all the books. So thank you so much again for having me. I loved this conversation. Thank you too. And I also love that you highlighted other guests that I've had on the show in the book, like Amy Morin. So I love her. Yeah. Those things were great too. So thank you so much, Catherine. It was such an honor. My pleasure. Thank you. And that concludes today's episode. What an enlightening and thought-provoking conversation that was with Catherine Morgan Schaffler. Today's episode was a powerful,

Starting point is 00:59:20 thought-provoking exploration of perfectionism. What it truly means, how it impacts our lives, and how we can transform it from a source of shame into a source of strength. Catherine's insights into the five types of perfectionists, her deeply personal story, and her strategies for embracing self-compassion have given us a fresh and empowering perspective on living with intentionality as well as authenticity. As we close, I encourage you to reflect on your own relationship with perfectionism. Are you striving for control or are you embracing your wholeness? Are you giving yourself permission to enjoy your life today

Starting point is 00:59:53 rather than waiting for that elusive perfect moment? Catherine's wisdom reminds us that perfectionism isn't about fixing ourselves. It's about reclaiming our power, connecting to our sense of belonging, and choosing joy over judgment. If Catherine's message resonated with you, please take a moment to leave us a five-star rating and review. Your feedback fuels the show and helps us bring these transformative conversations to the PassionStruck community. And if you know someone who could benefit from today's episode, share it with them, because one conversation can spark a lifetime of change. You'll find links to everything we discussed today, including Katherine's book,

Starting point is 01:00:24 The Perfectionist's Guide to Losing Control, in the show notes at passionstruck.com. Don't forget to check out the video version of this conversation on our YouTube channels and explore our sponsors and exclusive deals at passionstruck.com slash deals. Supporting our partners allows us to continue delivering impactful episodes like this one. Before we go, I want to remind you that I love bringing these insights to organizations and teams through keynotes and speaking engagements. If today's discussion inspired you, and if you think it could benefit your workplace or community, visit JohnRMiles.com

Starting point is 01:00:53 slash speaking to learn more. Next week, I am thrilled to sit down with Randy Bligh, lead vocalist of the renowned metal band Lamb of God and author of the forthcoming memoir, Just Beyond the Light, Making Peace with the Wars Inside Our Head. Randy delves into his personal journey of maintaining positivity and perspective amidst life's challenges. He shares insights on balancing sobriety, art, and surfing, and offers hope that true balance is achievable even in seemingly hopeless times. Join us for this compelling conversation that explores finding light beyond the darkness. Fear is a real MF'er. A top-shelf grade A son-of-a-bitch

Starting point is 01:01:30 that will let you ruin your whole week if you let it run the show. That's a sentence in the book. And in this world of so much information coming at us all the time, it's hard to filter out what we should be worried about and what we shouldn't. And remember, the fee for this show is simple. If you found value in today's episode, share it with someone who needs to hear it. And as always, take what you have learned here and put it into action so that you can live what you listen. Until next time, live life, passion struck.

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Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Katherine Morgan Schafler on Control, Perfectionism, and Letting Go | EP 572

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