Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Michelle Chalfant on Are You Living From Your Adult Chair? |EP 638

Episode Date: July 17, 2025

In Episode 638 of Passion Struck, John R. Miles sits down with Michelle Chalfant—renowned therapist, author, and creator of The Adult Chair model—to explore one of the most transformational frameworks for emotional and relational healing.At the heart of Michelle’s approach is a deceptively simple but powerful idea: we all live from one of three “chairs”—the Child, the Adolescent, or the Adult. Most of us, without realizing it, are stuck reacting to life from our younger, wounded selves. The result? Triggers. Overreactions. People-pleasing. Shame. Emotional reactivity. Disconnection.Visit this link for the full show notes.Go Deeper: The Ignited LifeIf this episode stirred something in you, The Ignited Life is where the transformation continues. Each week, I share behind-the-scenes insights, science-backed tools, and personal reflections to help you turn intention into action.Subscribe🔗  and get the companion resources delivered straight to your inbox.Catch more of Michelle Chalfant: https://theadultchair.com/If you liked the show, please leave us a review—it only takes a moment and helps us reach more people! Don’t forget to include your Twitter or Instagram handle so we can thank you personally.How to Connect with John:Connect with John on Twitter at @John_RMilesFollow him on Instagram at @John_R_MilesSubscribe to our main YouTube Channel and to our YouTube Clips ChannelFor more insights and resources, visit John’s websiteSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Coming up next on passion struck. Most humans have an emotion, call it sadness, overwhelm, comparison, whatever it is. And then we build a story around why we're having that emotion or we want to give it meaning and to truly feel an emotion is just to let it flow through you. When I have worked with people over 20 some years of doing this work and I teach people how to feel their emotions.

That's when anxiety starts to shift, depression starts to shift. We need to learn how to get comfortable in the uncomfortableness of some of these emotions that we're actually feeling. We're not great at that. We are great at numbing out, but we're not great at feeling our emotions.

And we need to get better at it because that's actually our superpower. It's very healing to feel our emotions. Welcome to Passion Struck. Hi, I'm your host, John R. Miles. And on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips, and guidance of the world's most inspiring people and turn their wisdom into practical advice

for you and those around you. Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself. If you're new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays. We have long-form interviews the rest of the week with guests ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries, and athletes. Now, let's go out there and become passion struck. Welcome to episode 638.

I'm your host, John Miles, and whether you're back for more or joining us for the first time, I am so glad you're here. Together, we're on a mission to ignite change from the inside out. One episode, one shift, one conversation at a time. This month on Passion Struck, I'm exploring the power to change.

What it really takes to evolve not just your habits, but your beliefs, your identity, and your internal leadership. In episode 637, I sat down with Dr. Stephen Hayna to unpack how our cultural narratives shape motivation, meaning, and even mental health. And last week, I spoke with Kayla Shaheen and Christopher Connors about emotional integration and transformational leadership. And if you missed my solo episode last Friday, I introduced the Rare Method, a practical framework for doing the inner work

that shapes your outer world. Today's guest takes us deeper into that inner work, helping us see where we're living from and what it takes to reclaim emotional presence, peace, and choice. I'm joined today by Michel Chalfant, therapist, speaker, and creator of the Adult Chair Model, a simple but powerful

framework for understanding how our past shapes our reactions and how we can lead our lives from a place of grounded self-awareness. In this episode we explore why healing isn't about fixing yourself, it's about embracing all your parts. The difference between your child, adolescent, and adult chairs, and how to tell which one is running the show, how unprocessed emotions and ego-driven patterns keep us stuck, and what it looks like to live from the adult chair where boundaries, peace, and conscious leadership reside.

If you've ever struggled with overthinking, people-pleasing, emotional reactivity, or just feeling off in your relationships, this conversation is for you. And before we dive in, if you're new to the show or ready to go deeper, check out our curated starter packs at the ignitedlife.net slash playlist. Whether you're exploring purpose, resilience,

emotional intelligence, or identity, these playlists are your on-ramp to the world of passion struck. All Alright, let's step into the adult chair together. Here's my conversation with the deeply insightful Michelle Chalfant. Thank you for choosing PassionStruck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life. Now, let that journey begin. I am so excited today to welcome Michelle Schultant to Passion Struck. Welcome Michelle.

How are you today? Thank you so much, John. I'm doing well. Thank you for having me. I've been so excited to do this. I always like to have other podcasters on the show and it's interesting to me. A lot of people think of podcasting is competitive and I've never felt that way I'm not sure what you think but to me, I think we all have our own lanes even if we're in the same category

What are your thoughts 100%? I feel like actually if you're a podcaster, it's almost like joining a family Podcasters I've made great friends from doing the show I have my show for 10 years now, and I've just met so many fascinating people from all around the world, and I still keep in touch with many of them. So yeah, I don't feel like I compete with anybody in this world at all.

How many episodes are you up to? Something like close to 500 probably. Yeah, I don't remember the exact number, but I want to say it's like 400 and I don't know, 90 or something like that, somewhere around close to 500 probably. Yeah. I don't remember the exact number, but I want to say it's like 400 and I don't know 90 or something like that. Somewhere around close to 500. Well, congratulations. That is quite the amount.

I remember I was listening to Lewis house. It must've been a year ago and I remember telling the audience he was celebrating his number thousand episode and I couldn't believe it. It seemed so far away at the time I heard it, but we're at 627. So good for you far away. No congratulations. So I always like to ask this question and it's a thought-provoking one. We all tend to have moments in our life.

Sometimes it's one, sometimes it's multiple, that define and shape who we become. Give us a defining moment for you in your life. Yes, actually I can. There might have been a couple, but the one that really put me on the path that I'm on now happened in my late 20s. When I had lived through high school and college, I realized I definitely, and I didn't know it then. I didn't know then what I know now. What I know now is that I lived with probably what would be called functional depression and anxiety. I was very codependent, people pleasing, and I didn't have very positive self-talk. In fact, I had negative self-talk.

I really felt like I was damaged goods on the inside, but on the outside, I could dress the part. I had the boyfriend. I was getting married. Everything looked great on the outside, but on the inside, I didn't feel like that. I was suffering on the inside. And I've always been a seeker. I've always been, even when I was young, I always had a lot of questions like, who's God?

How do you create? What's this law of attraction thing? Even as a child, I just always ask those questions. And my then fiance and I were in a hotel room. He was interviewing for a job. And I remember this is a long time ago. This is when Oprah Winfrey actually had a show on TV. And this is Dr. Phil was on with her. This was a long time ago. This is when Oprah Winfrey actually had a show on TV and this is Dr.

Phil was on with her. This is a long time ago. And anyway, so I was watching Oprah and she had Dr. Phil on her show and they pulled someone out of the audience to come up and talk with Dr. Phil, who's a psychologist, I believe, and this person sounded just like me and I got, I remember I moved myself to the edge of the bed and I'm watching the TV, I'm like, okay, now I'm going to realize what do I need to do? Cause this person sounds a just like me. And I got, I remember I moved myself to the edge of the bed. I'm watching the TV. I'm like, okay, now I'm gonna realize, what do I need to do?

Because this person sounds a lot like me. And I'm sitting there waiting and Dr. Ville said, well, you need to learn how to love yourself. And Oprah said, yeah, it's quite obvious you need to learn how to love yourself. And I'm like, okay, here we go. Tell me how to do that. And then they said, and thank you for being here.

And then the girl went and sat down and I'm like, wait, how? In that moment, again, this is in my late 20s, mid to late 20s, I sat there. I can still see myself sitting on the bed. And I said, that is what I'm going to learn how to do for myself. Cause I know I'm not the only one that is sitting here feeling like I do.

And that set me on the path that I'm still on today. And it has been this, just I've loved my path. It's not been easy at all. Sometimes it was easy, sometimes it was hard, but I now in this place have been able to help other people do that all around the world. That was a pivotal moment for me. Cause I remember thinking,

I'm so tired of not knowing the how to. So if there's one thing that I do and anything and everything that I teach, it is the how to, it knowing the how to. So if there's one thing that I do and anything and everything that I teach, it is the how to, it's the how to everything. How do you set boundaries? How do you learn how to love yourself? How do you build self-worth? It's everything is about the how to.

So that really changed my life on that day. Thank you so much for sharing that. I have a dear friend. Our name's Lisa Edwards. that I have a dear friend, her name's Lisa Edwards. And Lisa is one of these people that has these kind of brilliant moments of advice that she gives out. She's a little bit older than me. And one of the ones that I love that she says is that the person who stares at you,

when you look in the mirror is the most incredible person that you will ever meet. in the mirror is the most incredible person that you will ever meet. And what I've added to that is the most challenging person that you will ever meet as well as that person who stares at you in the mirror and the true journey of life I think is how do you get over that challenging piece, that unloving piece and learn to embrace yourself and the incredible person that you are. So I think that feeds right into what you were just saying. Yeah, for sure.

And it's a journey. It was not an overnight thing by any means, but yes, absolutely. I had to really look at what was going on within myself. And I just throughout the years learned ways and methods and tools to turn that all around. If you're a frequent listener of this show, they have heard me talk about stools before. I use the analogy of a stool quite often. I used it in my book, which came out last year. And today we're talking about your brand new book titled The Adult Chair. And my version of the stool, what I refer to is that at one point in my life, I was living on a

stool and I was going, the way the story happens is I was going through a pretty rough stretch in my life. I was depressed. I was out of sync and I went to go see a psychotherapist who gave me this analogy. John, you're living on a stool and that stool has a number of supports. And for you, the constant grind is playing heavier than anything else. And it's impacting your emotional health, your spiritual health, your relationship health, your career health, your relationship health, your career health, everything else. And so we said, you need to figure out how to reimagine

your stool so that the pillars that you're sitting upon are bringing you not only strength, but balance. And so I've always used that analogy because I think it's someone people can relate to. In your case, we're going to be talking about this model of a chair. And I was hoping Michelle, that you could take us back to the beginning. Where did this concept of three chairs come from? And how did it emerge? Was it in your personal work, your clinical work? Yeah, it's really a combo platter of so many different things. I, again, when I had that moment in that hotel room

with Oprah and Dr. Phil, I just, I've always been a seeker, like I said, so I've always read tons of books and loved having mentors in my life and teachers and therapists and coaches and all the things. And I learned inner child work probably right after that. Like right after that time, I started working with inner child work

and also a form of parts work. And I know parts work is really big right now, but the version that I learned was more spiritual parts work. And I learned it from somebody's and then I just created my own version of it. So it's very energetically focused and spiritual. So that's where that started again, probably 25 years ago. And then I was working with several therapists over the years that worked with chairs. It's a form of gestalt therapy, the empty chair and all of these things. And then I was in, I was with a group many years ago,

and she, this teacher used many chairs. And she had talked about this child, this adolescent, the adult, and she had all these other chairs as well. And I was like, I like those three. I've used the child chair for many years. I've used an adult chair. And then she had talked about this adolescent chair. I'm like, I'm going to take these and merge it with everything that I've ever learned, and then create this whole model

and call it the adult chair. So that's where it came from. It's like a just a mishmash of many different people and a lot of feedback. Honestly, I really have a lot of gratitude for my clients because I would, of course, use these things with my clients and they would say, oh my gosh, this changed my life. This was great. And I go, okay, I'm going to use that, that, that. So I cobbled it together after many years and here we are today. Thanks for that introduction. And I was hoping you might be able to briefly walk us

through the three chairs, the child, the adolescent and the adult and how each one shows up in our daily life. Yeah, for sure. So the way that I present this is that the adult chair model is really, it's a developmental model of who we are today and how we got this way. So this is looking through the lens without judgment and blame of anybody, but it really helps people understand, oh my gosh, this is where this came from. Now I get it. So the way, if you can imagine, and in my office,

I used to have three chairs. When I do this live, I have three chairs on stage with me, and I walk from one chair to the next. So we're all born. And then from the ages of zero to six, we're living in what we call the child chair. So within the child chair, we learn so many things. This is the foundational part of who we are. We learn all about emotions.

This is where we learned, if everyone that is listening, think back to your own childhood. Was it safe to have emotions? Did you get yelled at, laughed at, celebrated? Did anyone sit with you when you were sad or when you're happy and really listen to you? What was your experience with emotions? Because when we're little, we are flowing with emotions. Ultimately, truly truly we are energy beings and emotions just flow through us all day, every day. The question is when you were zero to six, what happened? What were you modeled when you had an emotion? So this is your first experience with emotions and you're taught if they're safe or not.

We also learn about emotional needs. Things like, I need a hug. I need you to tell me that I'm lovable. I need to hear that I love you. I need a diaper change. It could be all of these things when we're little, think zero to six. How were your needs met when you were children from zero to six? Again, did you have to do things on your own? Were you celebrated because you didn't need anything? Oftentimes when we're raised and we have older siblings, we are raised to, oh, you're an easy child because you don't need anything.

So all of these things are getting wired into our roadmap, which is crazy to me. The roadmap that we are living on today, anyone that's listening to the show today, think back to when you were six years old, what was the date? Like what was, excuse me, what was the year? Imagine having a paper roadmap,

that's what you're living off of today, regardless of if you're 90 or if you're 21, you're living off of a roadmap that was completed by the time you were six years old. So again, you learned about emotions, you learned about needs, this is where you learned about emotions you learned about needs. This is where you learned about intimacy Vulnerability play fun joy all of these things happen passion

These things were all learned they built the foundation for who you are today By the time you were six. So this is where our attachment comes in Did you have secure did Did you have anxious attach? Were your parents there for you or not? So what happens is, that just blows my mind. I've worked with so many people over the years and I'm like, it blows their minds too. I'm like, yeah, so what we need to do

is update this programming. That's what this adult chair is all about. But anyway, so that's the child chair. Any questions about that before I move on? Does that make sense? I've got a bunch, but I'm gonna let you finish the introducing and then I'll go into it. Okay, so then around the age of seven,

I like to think of it when I'm on stage, I'll say, okay, so imagine this big scroll or like a hard drive, let's say, of all the first six years that you learned. And it's like somebody, that under child, that child part of you hands it off to this adolescent part and says, here, keep me safe, keep me alive, keep me included in my groups that

I'm in. Think about it. So from the age of seven to 24, we go from adolescent to post adolescent phase. This is where we are forming who we are, but it's who we are not actually. It's part of the false self. This is where all this starts to form because when we go into groups in our schools or with our friends we want to fit in. So this is when the ego fully is coming online and it's learning when you did that you got laughed at by your friends or your family. Don't do that again even though it might be part of your true self.

We learn to be reactionary or calm. We learn to shove our emotions down or keep that. It's like all of these things are happening during this time. It's not a bad phase. People go, oh my God, I hate this adolescent chair. I'm like, it's not that it's bad. It's that it didn't have, if you didn't have healthy modeling when you were growing up, and I don't know if anybody that had 100% healthy modeling, then we have some things

to look at when we're now adults. This is where we learn to be codependent, people pleasing, controlling. This is where we become reactionary versus responsive. This is also because of the ego. The ego learns not to live in the present moment, but to live in the future or the past, because it's got to sort out to keep us safe. Wait, is that going to happen or is that going to happen? And the thing that's crazy is most of our stories and assumptions never come true. So the things we stress about, the things we worry about, the things we're anxious about, they don't happen. But the ego goes into story. Well, will this happen before? Is this probably gonna happen again? No, not necessarily.

So then around the age of 25, so that's the adolescent chair, around the age of 25, we then slide over to our adult chair. And the adult chair, again, is based on the modeling that we had when we were growing up. When we're in our adult chair, we live in the present moment. We don't live in the past and the future. We live with healthy boundaries. We live with curiosity. We're able the present moment. We don't live in the past in the future. We live with healthy boundaries. We live with curiosity We're able to wait patiently. We're not in a rush in a hurry

We don't need to make choices immediately like we do in the adolescent chair We have choices we realize in our adult weight I can choose to wait or I can choose to do this or that or the other Thing I'm not pressured into anything. There's a stronger sense of self when we're in our adult chair. So many beautiful things happen in our adult chair. And the good news is for people listening, they might be thinking, oh my gosh, I'm stuck in my adolescent chair. Well, most of us are. What happens is we grow up, we age physically, yet we're living off of this old program.

So we're actually stuck living out of this adolescent chair, but physically I continue to grow. So again, I might be 30, but I'm living off of a 30, excuse me, my adolescent, which is the average age of about a 13 year old. So when we're stressed, I know it sounds crazy, right? When we're stressed, when we come home, when we say, I'm just gonna have a drink, I'm really stressed out today.

That's not your adult, that is adolescent because an adolescent would say that. They wanna numb it out. That's coming from the ego perspective. So the ego says, I've gotta numb out this emotion. I don't know what to do with it. Oh wait, let's go eat chocolate cake. Let's go watch porn.

Let's go shopping. Let's go do these things. Cause the last time that we did it, I felt numb. So the ego is always trying to keep us alive, keep us safe, keep us in balance, but it's tools, it's resources are from, again, the average age of a 13 year old. Where an adult would say, wow,

I'm really experiencing an emotion. Okay, I'm gonna learn how to sit and feel that emotion, even though it's uncomfortable, I'm gonna learn how to sit and feel that emotion even though it's uncomfortable, I'm gonna learn how to do that. So that's the big difference is that, again, most of us live from this adolescent chair perspective, not that it's bad, it got us where we are today, but we need to update it.

We need to update that programming. It's no different than how we update our phone or the laptop that you have that you're watching this on. It's like, we update those every month or so. We've got to update our programming as well because it's really outdated. And that's what the whole part two of the book is about the how to do that.

That's the five pillars. Taking a step back from what you just went through in depth, what are some signs for the audience that would allow them to understand if they're living from their adult chair versus being hijacked by one of the earlier chairs? Yeah. When we start moving really fast and our thinking is going very quickly. So the ruminating thinking, the negative thinking, the unawareness that I'm lost, that I'm stuck, all of this. I'm just reacting to everything. That's a really big sign that we're in the adolescent. If I'm controlling,

if I'm blaming, if I'm gossiping, if I'm comparing myself, the ego compares to others, the ego judges. So if I'm judging, I'm in the adolescent. So all of these things, again, it's not bad though. A lot of people go, that's so bad. I'm like no it doesn't know any better. It's actually we're trying very hard to keep you safe and alive and it's trying very hard to keep you included in your group. It's trying to keep you looking great. It's trying to keep you included in your group so you're cool. Like all of these things it's trying to do, it doesn't know any better because it doesn't have that adult perspective. And the truth is, we bounce around from chair to chair, but we mostly settle into this adolescent chair.

So I wanted to take this in a different direction. One of the things that I talk a ton about on this podcast is the concept of mattering. And I feel that so many people around the world today are experiencing anti-matter. And it shows up in people feeling hopeless, lonely, burned out, tons of symptoms that are out there. And from my research, I think it boils down to this innate sense that we don't feel we matter. And there's a kind of a few different dimensions to that. There's personal mattering, there's relational mattering, and then there's impact mattering. So personal mattering is do I feel like I matter? Relational is do others make me feel like I matter? And

impact is am I making other people feel like they matter? I think more and more kids the child chair are experiencing this unmattering and I think it's showing up because if one of the parents is going to work and that's who they're getting their sense of mattering from and that they're getting their sense of mattering from and that parent is maybe in the adolescent chair or doesn't feel like they matter, then it's virtually impossible for them to make the child feel like they matter. And over time, it becomes a learned behavior. From your research, do you think that holds true in this analogy that we've been talking about with the chairs? Absolutely. In fact, I have a coaching certification program. And I say this all the time to my coaches, I'm like, you have

to do your personal work, because you can only take people as far as you've gone. So let's put that through the lens of parenting. I can't give my kid what I don't have, how am I supposed to teach my kid how to love themselves, how to feel like they matter? I don't feel like how am I supposed to teach my kid how to love themselves, how to feel like they matter? I don't feel like I matter. So the best parenting tip I can give to any parent is to do your personal work to help your kid.

So you can't see it in others. You don't know how to do it for others until you learn how to do it for yourself. So yes, I would agree with you there. Many people lack that regardless, even if the parent isn't working, if they don't know that they matter, or that they have self worth or self value, they don't know how to validate that in their child. The greatest gift we can give our children is to validate them for who they are, who they are. And my parents didn't do that for me and I don't blame them.

They didn't know how to do it. We don't know how to parent in a great way. Nobody has actually taught us. Thank God there are more people now out there that are teaching this. But I remember having a client and her son was this huge kid, like an eighth or ninth grade. He was like six foot four muscles and her husband was a football player and her son looked like he would be a football player. If you looked at him, he was giant and he wanted to be an artist and the father shunned him. He couldn't handle it.

He was like, you're a football player. Everyone plays football in my family, blah, blah, blah, and he's like, I want to be an artist. So the dad literally would not talk to him. Like he really gave this kid a hard time because even as a child, he wanted to do art. He was more in that world. And the mother came in to see me and she says,

I don't know what to do. And I said, you need to call your husband in here. Let's talk about this because this is just not okay. This kid needs to be validated for who he is and what he wants to do in this world. How beautiful he wants to become an artist. And he's not a guy that wants to play football. That's okay. Who cares? But the dad couldn't do it. He had the hardest time accepting the kid. And I said, anyway, got into projecting and all this other stuff that was going on. But that's just a classic example. Like, I remember another family, their daughter was this incredible runner, like she had

these long legs, she could run faster than any boy, she was like 10 years old. And the parents were like, she needs to be in track, she needs to be running cross country. And I said, No, she doesn't. She years old. And the parents were like, she needs to be in track. She needs to be running cross country. And I said, no, she doesn't. She hates running. And the parents were hazing her to get in there and be a runner. And the daughter was getting depressed. It was this whole thing.

I'm like, they've got to be validated for who they are, or they don't feel like they matter for who they are. Yeah. I agree with you. So I want to take this a step further. In the book, you say that there are six key qualities of the childcare, and these are things that you bring out like emotions, vulnerability, intimacy, needs, et cetera.

If you think about that need to matter and if it's missing, how many of these key elements does that impact? I think it's unique for everybody because they may have an older sibling that maybe listens to them when they're emotional. So I think it's really dependent on the household that we're all raised in. So I can't say that this would, feeling like I don't matter would impact, let's say, feeling your emotions. It feels like it's a little different. It really depends on the modeling,

what we got when we were growing up. And again, it might've been from an older sibling that we were modeled in a healthy way, or a grandparent, or an aunt, or an uncle. That's a difficult one to answer. I think it's really unique. I have done a few different episodes on this concept of high functioning adults. One was with Terry Cole, who I think you've interviewed as well, and we were talking about high functioning

codependency. And then I recently did an episode around high functioning depression. But regardless, why does so many high functioning adults get stuck in the adolescent chair, even when outwardly it seems like they're extremely successful? Oh gosh, they're wearing a really great mask. I was, I had a great mask on, nobody knew what was going on behind because it wasn't safe to do that.

Because again, remember the ego is here to keep us included, part of our tribe. Now that tribe could be our family, it could be our friend group, it could be our work group, it could be our sorority, our fraternity, whatever the heck we're in. That ego is pushing us to stay in that group. So it's not going to allow us to be vulnerable. It doesn't know how to be vulnerable. Its job is to slap a mask on your face and show up and look like you're happy, look like you dress well, look like you're this or this in order to stay included. So it doesn't mean to do that. But to me, functional depression, that I lived with that, has a ton to do with, again, and I've worked with people

with depression and anxiety for years. This is a lot of the work I did. It was so much around feeling your emotions and allowing them through without story and without giving them meaning. We're not great at doing that. So most humans have an emotion, call it sadness, overwhelm, comparison, whatever it is. And then we build a story around why we're having that emotion, or we wanna give it meaning. And to truly feel an emotion is just to let it flow through you.

When I have worked with people over 20 some years of doing this work, and I teach people how to feel their emotions, that's when anxiety starts to shift. Depression starts to shift. We need to learn how to get comfortable in the uncomfortableness of some of these emotions that we're actually feeling. We're not great at that.

We are great at numbing out, but we're not great at feeling our emotions. And we need to get better at it. Cause that's actually our superpower. It's very healing to feel our emotions. That is why I'm so glad that over the past couple of years, there's been a ton of books on this from Litter Suite, from Susan Cain to big emotions from Liz Fossilian to trying to think, I think even no regrets from Dan Pink and Ethan Cross had a great book about emotions earlier this year

that people can all go to. So when you talk about that mask, I often talk about it as the mask of pretense and I wore it myself. And in the book you write, as an adult and parent, I saw this development of the mask in my son, Graham, when he moved to a new school in eighth grade. He loved the school, was thrilled to be making friends. And then one day he invited James over and asked him if he'd like to play Legos. That was Graham's favorite thing to do. And James looked at him and said, Legos. And started laughing. Dude, Legos are for kids. Do you really play with Legos? And I'm just using this as an example, because I think we've all been through these situations where we encounter something like this.

I know we had been living in where you live now, Charlotte, North Carolina, and my son was thriving there and we moved him around the same age when he was starting middle school to Austin, Texas. And he had a very difficult time adjusting because the things he liked to do, he was being made fun of and ridiculed by his friends. So I've seen this play out. So maybe you can use this as an example of like, how is this a great example of how this mass shows up? And then what do you do about it? And this is what kids do. Again, this is why I say the adolescent part is not bad.

It's how we learn how to survive. And unless we have a really strong sense of self, my son Graham, and I can still see it, I can tell you where I was standing, I think I was more traumatized than he was. I felt so bad. The thing is that when we have a really strong sense of self, we could sit and say, yeah, I love Legos, who cares? But here's this kid, new school, not sure, having a great time.

He was having so much fun at the school. And immediately it was like, oh yeah, no, those are my brothers. Those aren't mine. I didn't say whatever he said. I was like, oh, this kid loves Legos. He plays for hours every day. But that's how it happens. Very quickly, loop, and it's unconscious. The ego comes very quickly and says, drop that mask on. It just continues to build up this false sense of self is what's happening. So it's like, false self, false self, another layer, another layer. It's like putting paint on us, right?

It's like another layer of paint is going up. So yep, you're gonna cover up that vulnerability a little bit more, it's not safe to speak up. He's trying to be cool in this new school that he's in. So yeah, it was not helpful at all. So what I find is over the years, we do that. We build up the sense of false self. And then at some point, and I feel like it's getting earlier

and I'd like your opinion on that as well, but now it seems as though, wait a minute, kids are even in their twenties or thirties that are saying, hold on, there's something off here. This doesn't feel right to me. I want to be vulnerable or yeah, my relationship, I love any kind of relationship that we're in, whether it's a romantic relationship, a friendship relationship with your parents, siblings, whomever, is the greatest lens or mirror for what is going on within us. Everybody mirrors what's going on inside of self.

And if we could just pay attention, this is why I said emotions are our superpower. If we could start to pay attention to how everything makes us feel, it doesn't mean I've got to sit around and go, I'm sad, I'm happy. Physically speaking, if we can learn how to stay connected to our bodies and notice, wow, that just gave me a stomach ache when I said that is an indicator that I'm out of alignment.

When I just said yes to so, and I wanted to say no, that means you're out of alignment. When I just said yes to so and I wanted to say no, that means you're out of alignment because your soul is here and it's guiding you forward. Your higher self, whatever you want to call it, something bigger than you is guiding you forward. But when you're saying yes when you mean no or no when you want to say yes, that's an indicator that you're out of alignment. You're back in the adolescent chair. So that's how we start to update that programming. When we start to notice how we feel, that's one way to do it.

When we speak up for ourselves, and that can start the removal of these masks. And then we become brave enough to say, I'm gonna say yes when I wanna say yes and no when I know. And let's see what fallout happens afterwards, cause you might upset somebody. You might say something that people go, I don't like that you're saying yes. You always say no, because you might upset somebody. You might say something that people go, I don't like that you're saying yes.

You always say no, whatever it might be. But that is one way that we can start to really start taking these masks off and live in more alignment with who we are. I am now gonna take you to the story of Gerard and Marcy and what led to avoidance and self-sabotage. So in the book, you talk about Gerard came in, sits on your couch, puts his head in his hands and said, Michelle, I've totally messed up and I'm in the doghouse.

Gerard for the audience is 42 years old. He's the divorced father of two and he's been dating this new woman, Marcy, for about four months, really falling for, but he's a huge sports fan and his buddies have invited him to watch the playoffs. His favorite team is playing, but Marcy invited him to a friend's birthday party and he said yes, but forgot about the playoff games. So he does what a lot of people do. He doesn't know how to handle the situation.

He decides he's going to go hang out with his friends, text her a couple hours before they're supposed to go. And now she is ghosting him. So probably a lot of people might not have been in that exact same situation, but something very similar to it. How can someone catch themselves in these moments before they spiral and do an act of self-sabotage? Yes, I absolutely remember those two. So he was acting again from his adolescent cheer. He's doing his best to not get in trouble, but to also get what he wants and all these things.

But his strategies, the sneaking around and all that, that was not healthy, right? That was not acting from his adult chair. That was acting from this adolescent. And then Marcy, honestly, for ghosting him, same kind of thing, adolescent chair, speak up for yourself. So your question was, what was your question? So how could he have done it differently?

What was your question? Well, could you have done it differently? What was your question? Well, how do you catch yourself when you're being avoidant or you're ending up self-sabotaging yourself before you get into the moment where you spiral? Yes, I've taught a whole course on this. It's on my website. It's called the Relationship Reset Program

because what I realized is that over the years of working with people, we don't know how to communicate well with others. We don't know how to speak up. We don't know how to set boundaries. We don't know how to just be vulnerable, which is the child, right? Speaking up for what we want, what we need.

Oops, I made a mistake. So what that would look like from his adult chair would have been like, hi, Marcy. Oh my gosh, I can't believe this. I really want to go to the playoff game. This is my favorite team. And I know that I said yes to you. Would you be okay? If I went to the playoff game instead. But instead, he got very sneaky. He did all these weird things. And I was like, Why don't you just talk to her about it? He's all I would have heard her feelings. I said, Well, you heard her

feelings anyway, because of how you did this. her about it? He said, well, I would have heard her feelings. I said, well, you heard her feelings anyway because of how you did this. So we went through, I said, it's about having direct, open, honest conversations with others. That's how we could have avoided it. But how do we know is again, I'm tuning into my body and I'm noticing this is giving me a stomach ache. This is making my heart tight.

This is making my heart race. My throat's getting tight. Something doesn't feel right. Oh, I made a mistake. Oh, now I'm in. I don't know how to get myself out of this. What am I supposed to do now? It's like you talk about it. If we just need to learn how to have a conversation and speak up and say, I really messed up. I'm really sorry. I'd like to honor you and go to your friend's birthday, but this is my favorite team. You know how I love Miami dolphins. I really want to go see this playoff. Would you be okay if I did that?

And if she's not okay, then you have a conversation about that. You can't, he was trying to take care of everything on his own and he ended up really hurting her feelings and she did stop talking to him and all this. Yeah. So does that answer your question? I think that's good. I'm just trying to give some insights about the book and how readers can use it

along with this three chairs concept. This is why in the book, if you notice, I packed this book with not just client examples so people could really relate to and understand what I was talking about. Cause it's a simplified book, and that's how I teach everything. Because I need to break things down for myself.

I'm like, how do I make this really understandable to everybody? But what I have put throughout the entire book are exercises and prompts so that you can then plug in your life, whatever is going on in your life, into this model. So the book is actually like a transformational journey that any reader can take by reading the book.

Because you read the book also, I'd advise grabbing a journal and a pen, and you actually are gonna journal and write as you're going through the whole entire book, and it will transform you by the end. Everybody is saying this to me, they're like, I feel like a different person after reading this book, and did all these exercises and I feel so different. It raises your awareness to who you are and what your stuff is. What are you dealing with? Like you said,

if I'm avoidant, you're going to realize, oh, wait, this is me. This sounds like me, what she's talking about here. And then I talked to you about what do you do if that sounds like you. So I give you the, again, the how to,to so this is you this is what you need to do next. I Actually interviewed Kayla Shaheen. I'm not sure if you know who that is But she wrote the book the shadow work journal Gone bonkers and I actually thought your book combined with her journal were a nice pair. Thank you Love that's why that's the whole chapter that I wrote on triggers. I have a lot of experience with shadow work and trigger work.

That's something I've done for 20 years. I remember studying with Debbie Ford before she passed 20 years ago. But that's something that has always fascinated me and triggers are an incredible way when you work with your triggers to update that old programming. Because when we're triggered, it's not about the other person, it's about our belief that's rising up within us. That other person did or said something, and then our belief rises up, and it's an opportunity to look at that belief that we have about ourselves

and flip that. That updates our program. I have a whole, I think it's a seven step process in the trigger chapter on how you work through a trigger to update your programming. Michelle, one of the things you talk about is that the adult chair, and we've been discussing it all along, is the seat of presence, boundaries, and emotional responsibilities. And in the book, when you start going into this next section, you write that to live full time in our adult chair is nearly impossible because of our ego. And so the real goal is to live mostly from our adult chair as much as we can throughout the day.

And then you go through that to do this. There are a number of steps. The first is we have to learn the qualities of each chair. And so when I was starting to go through the qualities of the adult chair, a lot of it starts making sense and it starts going into a lot of the things that we hear from many different sources, but I thought you did a good job of kind of outlining them. So I know one of them is to live in the present moment. Another one is to grow in self-awareness.

Another one is, which kind of goes along with living in the present, is to be mindful about our thoughts. And as I went down the list, I saw that one of the most powerful things that you tuned into that I talk about here a lot is that it's our choices that really shape who we become. And we all have choices that we make every single day. But I think being intentional about what choices we make is what ends up culminating into the results

that we achieve. How do you think that choiceology impacts this staying in the adult chair versus reverting back to one of the two earlier ones? Choice is everything. And even in my own life, and this is why I love this, is that I didn't think I had a choice. These thoughts were coming in so fast, tearing me down, beating up on me, all of the things, the negative thinking.

And I realized once I was able to start separating myself from those thoughts, now hear those words, like I separated Michelle from the thoughts and created that space. I realized, wow, I can choose things to help create more space. And the more I was able to actually separate myself from those thoughts, the depression started going away.

The anxiety started decreasing. So now I'm so mindful of choosing. For example, I go into workaholic mode very easily because I absolutely love what I do. Everything that I do in the world I love and I can go into workaholic and I have to be careful. I don't want to fry out my nervous system because I've done that too in the past. So I will intentionally choose to take a break. So when we're done today, I will go stand in the backyard, no shoes on, do some grounding for about 10 minutes. So it's not that I have to do it for an hour, but I choose that I choose to put my nervous system first

More than anything now. I don't want to get adrenal fatigue again and all of these things but Choosing is Everything that's the power or it's very empowering to realize we have a choice To again even with setting a boundary like that example you were using out of the book Gerard could have said oh wait to, again, even with setting a boundary, like that example you were using out of the book, Gerard could have said, oh, wait, I'm gonna choose to have a conversation and it's gonna be uncomfortable, but that's okay.

Because that's just part of being human, that's part of life. We can choose to pause before we're about to binge out on Netflix, food, whatever we're doing and say, wait a minute, I'm going to do that. I'm going to give myself, I'm going to go eat some cookies, whatever, but first I'm going to choose to sit here for five minutes, set the timer on your phone because the ego likes to

know there's an end time. And I'm going to choose to sit here and feel my emotions just for five minutes. I don't even know what that means. Right. You don't have to label it. Just feel into your body. Why I have a stomach ache, sit with it, allow it to be there. Don't try to fix it. Don't try to

push it away. Be with it. It's an energy and it will move through. It will move through and out if you sit with it. So, choice is everything from choosing, like I said, to me triggers are a gift. They're a way to update your programming. In that moment when you're triggered, the choice is, do I want to choose to look at this and inquire, is this mine? And what is this about me? What is this belief? Or do I want to scream at this person standing in front of me or get mad or throw them a cold shoulder or put the wall up?

I'm going to instead choose to do this for myself. So choice is everything. And that is what keeps us in our adult chair more and more. So I was having a really interesting conversation with Angela Duckworth about a year ago, I love her book, Grit. But I came into this interview I did with her in a way to challenge her on something. And I told her Angela, I think you've gotten two sides of the equation or triangle, right? I think passion and perseverance are absolutely critical, but I think you're missing a dimension and that dimension is intention because if you're not intentional about the choices you're making then you're going to take that grit and you're going to apply it in the wrong areas of your life. And she said, I wasn't trying to be exclusive about saying those two

things are the only things. And she studies self-control and in her mind, self-control and intention. Are synonymous with each other, the way she thinks about it. But you write in the book that your life changed when you implemented intention into your life and you used the help of Wayne Dwyer in his book, The Power of Intention. So why is it so important to get so intentional about how you spend your days?

Because if not, to me intention in the morning, intention sets the tone for the day. It's like, what's the roadmap for my day today? So I'm gonna be very intentional about, I'm gonna have a peaceful day, I'm gonna have excellent podcast interviews, I'm going to be in the flow state. I intend various things.

But on top of intention, I've also come to realize you gotta have action, right? So if I'm off course, you've got to have, you've got to have the action to pull you back onto that course as well. And the awareness to notice, hold on a second, your heart's racing, Michelle, or you're feeling fried out time to go take a break. Intention is really powerful. I find that if we don't have intention, we live life the same as we did the day before, which is just an instant replay. Again, we might do different things throughout the day,

but if you want to change your life in some way, shape or form or stay on course, intention is very powerful. It's an energy that you're rolling out like the yellow brick road for your day every single day. Well, my last question for you is you've worked with thousands of clients. What's the most surprising shift you've witnessed when someone consistently returns to their adult chair? It is absolutely shocking to me how simple actually the process is,

but it has to do with being able to say to yourself, hold on, what's fact and truth in this very moment? That is one of the best ways you can get in your adult. That is one of the best ways you can get out of the adolescent, stop time, drop into the present moment. And what I've heard for years now, because I've done been doing this particular work with the adult chair for 10 years, is how simple that is. People go, I can't believe it. I was in the middle of the kitchen and I was cooking and my brain was going crazy.

And I just asked myself, hold on a second, what's fact and truth in this very moment? And boom, all of a sudden, everything just stopped. Time stops and they feel this new alignment come in. So there is a simplicity to this work that I don't think people are aware of. And I just wanna offer that to your listeners. It's really that simple.

And what's fact and truth in the moment might be, I'm cooking dinner, I'm looking down at my skillet, I have onion in the skillet or whatever you're cooking. Or it could be, I'm looking out the window and there's a blue sky and there's grass and there's trees and I live on a lake and whatever it might be I'm looking out the window and there's a blue sky and it's there's grass and there's trees and I live on a lake and whatever it might be. So it could be whatever's going on in that moment for you whether you're cooking or looking out the window but man is that a powerful thing that absolutely snaps you back into your adult chair.

Well Michelle it's been such an honor to have you. Where's the best place that people can go to learn more about you and your work? So they can get the book, The Adult Chair on Amazon or anywhere, but just theadultchair.com. You can find me there and I have the coaching program. I have Michelle Shelfant podcasts, live events, online courses. I've got a whole bunch of stuff going on there. So theadultchair.com is where you can find me. Such an honor to have you, Michelle.

Thank you so much for being on Passion Struck. Thank you can find me. Such an honor to have you, Michelle. Thank you so much for being on Passion Struck. Thank you for having me. And that's a wrap on this transformative conversation with Michelle Chalfant. Michelle's adult chair model offers more than just self-awareness. It's a powerful invitation to stop reacting from old patterns and start responding

from your truest self. Because when we sit in the adult chair, we take ownership without shame. We set boundaries without guilt, and we lead our lives with clarity, compassion, and confidence. A few takeaways I hope you'll carry with you. First, you're not broken, you're layered,

and healing is the integration of all your parts. Second, emotional regulation doesn't come from suppressing the child or adolescent. It comes from reparenting them. And third, living from the adult chair is the gateway to presence, peace, and purposeful decision-making. If this episode resonated, send it to someone

navigating burnout, relationship friction, or emotional overwhelm. These tools can be life-changing, but only if we practice them. And if you wanna take the next step, join the ignition room, our intentional community for growth-minded changemakers. Subscribe to the Ignited Life newsletter

for tools, reflections, and behind the scenes insights. And visit our YouTube channels at John R. Miles and PassionStruckClips for full episodes and exclusive content. And lastly, check out our curated starter packs at the ignitedlife.net slash playlist, deep dives into emotional fitness, resilience, and relational healing. Coming up next on PassionStruck, I sit down with Brad Delfin, founder of Total Digital Security for an urgent conversation about why cybersecurity is no longer just a tech issue,

it's a personal one. We explore how to protect yourself, your family, and your digital life in a rapidly evolving threat landscape. You have to be intentional to protect yourself in this digital age because nobody else is going to do it for you. The ISP, your internet provider, will not do it for you. They're trying to help with certain things, but the fact is your internet provider is sucking up all your personal information with everything you do back and forth. They're part of the game.

You've got big tech, right, and big business constantly looking to suck up our personal information, which invariably ends up in the wrong hands and goes sideways eventually. You have the government that really has not been a proponent down to the individual level, certainly on a national level or an enterprise level or a military level,

but not on a consumer individual. You must take the initiative yourself on behalf of yourself as a head of household for your family. Until then, lead from your truth, respond from your wholeness, and as always, Live Life, Hash & Star.