Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Michelle ”MACE” Curran on How to Conquer Your Upside Down Dreams EP 368

Episode Date: November 3, 2023

Join us as we dive into the inspirational journey of Michelle "MACE" Curran, a Combat Veteran, former F-16 fighter pilot, and the author of Upside Down Dreams. From commanding the skies as Thunderbird #5 and #6 to inspiring others to overcome hardships and realize their dreams, Michelle's story is a testament to the power of perseverance, determination, and grace in achievement. Want to learn the 12 philosophies that the most successful people use to create a limitless life? Pre-order John R. Miles’s new book, Passion Struck, which will be released on February 6, 2024. Full show notes and resources can be found here: https://passionstruck.com/michelle-curran-conquer-your-upside-down-dreams/  Defying the Odds: Michelle "Mace" Curran's Journey from Combat Veteran to Empowering Leader In this episode of Passion Struck with John R. Miles, we have the privilege of delving into the incredible journey of Michelle "Mace" Curran, a true beacon of inspiration. As a Combat Veteran and former F-16 fighter pilot, Michelle once commanded the skies as Thunderbird #6, opposing solo, before becoming the lead solo #5 in the 2020/21 airshow season. Despite a global pandemic that disrupted airshow schedules, Michelle's impact on the Thunderbirds team was immeasurable. Through her social media contributions and captivating in-cockpit videos, she kept the Thunderbirds' relevance alive for the public audience, a feat in itself. Now, she is soaring to new heights as the Founder of Upside Down Dreams, a platform that empowers others to overcome hardships and realize their dreams. Sponsors Brought to you by OneSkin. Get 15% your order using code Passionstruck at https://www.oneskin.co/#oneskinpod. Brought to you by Indeed: Claim your SEVENTY-FIVE DOLLAR CREDIT now at Indeed dot com slash PASSIONSTRUCK. Brought to you by Lifeforce: Join me and thousands of others who have transformed their lives through Lifeforce's proactive and personalized approach to healthcare. Visit MyLifeforce.com today to start your membership and receive an exclusive $200 off. Brought to you by Hello Fresh. Use code passion 50 to get 50% off plus free shipping!  --► For information about advertisers and promo codes, go to: https://passionstruck.com/deals/  Like this show? Please leave us a review here -- even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter or Instagram handle so we can thank you personally! How  Connect with John on Twitter at @John_RMiles and on Instagram at @john_R_Miles. Prefer to watch this episode:  Subscribe to our main YouTube Channel Here: https://www.youtube.com/c/JohnRMiles Subscribe to our YouTube Clips Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@passionstruckclips Want to find your purpose in life? I provide my master class on six simple steps to achieving it. Want to hear my best interviews? Check out my starter packs on intentional behavior change, women at the top of their game, longevity, and well-being, and overcoming adversity. Learn more about John: https://johnrmiles.com/ 

coming up next on passion struck a lot of times people will be like you flew for the thunderbirds the best pilots in the whole air force. Of course, we like to be called that but it's not necessarily true. You're not always hiring the best hands on pilot. There's like a certain level of proficiency that you of course have to have an aptitude to learn the maneuvers much of it comes down to how you will fit into that team dynamic. We're on the road 240 days a year. So you are with those people far more than you're with your family. You are in those situations where you have to trust your life in their hands on a daily basis. You can't have personality conflicts that are creating like poison in the well that are just spreading through the organization. That can be the most catastrophic thing to flying a safe demonstration and a good demonstration. So a ton of weight is put on creating the best team dynamic.

Welcome to PassionStruct. Hi, I'm your host, John Armeyles. And on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips and guidance of the world's most inspiring people and turn their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you. Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself. If you're new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on

Fridays. We have long-form interviews the rest of the week with guest ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries, and athletes. Now, let's go out there and become PassionStruck. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to episode 368 of PassionStruck, consistently ranked by Apple as one of the top 10 most popular health podcasts, and the number one alternative health podcast. Thank you to each and every one of you who come back weekly to listen and learn how to live better, be better, and impact the world. If you're new to the show, thank you so much for being here, or you simply want to introduce this to a friend or a family member, and we sure love it when you do that. Now we have episodes, stardopax, which are

collections of our fans' favorite episodes that we organize in convenient topics that give any new listener a great way to get acclimated to everything we do here on the show, either go to spotify or passionstruck.com slash starter packs to get started. In case you missed it, earlier in the week, I had two great interviews. The first was with Dr. Vanessa Barnes, a social psychologist, a professor of organizational behavior at Cornell University's ILR School. Dr. Barnes is the author of the eye-opening book You Have More Influence than You Think, where she draws from her original research to shed light on the power dynamics of consent and influence.

I also interviewed Rusty Shelton, a best-selling author, dynamic keynote speaker and successful entrepreneur, who's focused his career on helping leaders build thought leadership focused on impact, not ego, writing three acclaimed books and speaking around the world to a variety of audiences from South by Southwest Interactive to Ford. We discuss his latest book, The Authority Advantage, Building Thought Leadership focused on impact, not ego. I also want to say thank you for your ratings and reviews and if you love today's episode or either of those others we would appreciate you giving it a five star review and sharing it with your friends and families. I know we, inter guests, love to see comments from our listeners and those reviews go such a long

way in helping us build out the passion for structure community. Today we have the privilege of diving into the incredible journey for true beacon of inspiration. Michelle Mace Kern as a combat veteran and former F-16 fighter pilot. Michelle's story is a testament to the unwavering spirit of perseverance and determination. Michelle Kern or Mace once commanded the skies as Thunderbird number six get those them solo before becoming the lead solo number five in the 2020-21 air show season. Even amidst a global pandemic that disrupted air show schedules, her impact on the Thunderbird's team was immeasurable. For her social media contributions and captivating in cockpit videos, she kept the Thunderbirds

relevance alive for the public audience' speed in itself. Now, she is soaring to new heights that the founder of Upside Down Dreams platform that empowers others to overcome hardships and realize their dreams. Michelle's experiences underscore the power of pushing through obstacles, emphasizing that success is just one step beyond the challenges we face. Her journey is a remarkable example of grace and achievement and a shining role model for anyone with aspirations. We all grapple with self-doubt and imposter syndrome.

And Michelle's journey from grappling with crippling fears, performing heart-counting maneuvers at 500 miles per hour serves as a beacon of hope. Her story ignites the courage to embrace discomfort, through a languish fear, and to make bold choices. So get ready to soar to new heights with us as we delve into the story of Michelle Mace current. True embodiment on conquering fear and embracing the unknown. Thank you for choosing Passion Struck

and choosing me for your hosting guide on your journey to creating an intentional life now. Let that journey begin. I am so excited today to welcome Michelle Curran, Carl Sine Mace, to Passionstruck. Welcome, Michelle. Thanks for having me. I'm excited for our conversation. Well, I love doing these episodes, but I especially like to bring fellow veterans on. And I think that's the best starting point to give the audience a good introduction into who you are is what led you down the path

of wanting to join the military. So I think it's a different story than what people expect. Well, I was flying for the Thunderbirds, which I guess we let the cattle of the bag eventually did. People often assume that I had gone to air shows as a kid, seeing jets fly, and decided this is something I want to do. Let's figure out how to get there. But I grew up in a really small town in northern Wisconsin, not a Navy Asian family and not a military family. So I just didn't have a lot of exposure to any of that growing up. I had my grandpa, my dad's side, wasn't World War Two. He was a lieutenant in the Navy. I mean, he had passed away when I was really young. So I don't have any memories of him. But people in the family would was tell stories about him and how funny he was and how adventurous he was. And so I kind of had this probably inaccurate rose-colored

glasses view of him in my head, because I'm only hearing his life from their fond stories. But that kind of led me to look at him as a role model, and I would pull out his navy trunk that had Lieutenant current stamped on the end of it. And I would take out his uniforms and I would try them on and I would look at all his pictures from the Pacific and all his letters he had written to my grandma. And I just remember looking at it is kind of like this adventurous career option. But I hadn't decided at that point as a younger kid that it was something I for sure wanted to do. That didn't happen until I was about halfway through high school.

My parents were like, hey, we know you have really good grades, but we do not have a college fund for you. So like, let's look at ways to pay for your education. And we looked at all these different scholarships Air Force ROTC eventually filtered to the top. Again, that idea of traveling the world, doing something challenging and exciting really appealed to me. And so I ended up getting a scholarship and I was off to the races. So I wish it was, I had this feeling like I had this obligation or this duty to serve my country. But honestly, for me initially, it was how am I going to

pay for college? And the rest kind of came later. So you went from that and I understand that similar to me, you were thinking about going to a three-letter agency eventually. I got out of the military in fact to accept an appointment with the FBI. Amazing. What drew you from that as your end goal to this path then of becoming a fighter pilot? So I went to college as a criminal justice major because exactly the reason you mentioned I wanted to be an FBI agent.

So I had this grand plan as you know 16, 17 year old that I was going to go to school on our TC scholarship, be a criminal justice major, give back the four years on active duty, probably with OSI with special investigations on the military side, and then apply to the FBI. But halfway through college, we visited a base, it was actually $10 for space in Florida. And I saw two fighter jets up close for the first time. So there were two F-15s taking off and full afterburner.

And I just remember that being kind of a pivotal life changing experience for me. I got goosebumps. You know, you feel the jet noise vibrating your whole body and it was kind of just this jaw dropping moment where I was like, how do I go do that? And it was exciting enough that I decided to make a goal pivot from the FBI to figuring out how it could be a fighter pilot.

And then you end up going to flight school and something that a lot of people don't realize is when you go to flight school, being a fighter pilot is not guaranteed. And so it has a lot to do with how well you do in flight school and a number of other things. I know some people probably don't want the life of a fighter pilot. But can you unpack that a little bit? For sure. So I think the mentality I went in with was almost like fighter pilot or bus, which I don't recommend for other people that I

talked to who are asking about how they could follow a similar path because the odds are not in your favor. That's just math. It's statistically you're not going to get a fighter jet. It's possible, obviously. But for me, we had 25 students in my class, two of us got fighter aircraft. As you mentioned, not everyone wants to be a fighter pilot. The lifestyle thing you said, some people want to fly heavies like cargo aircraft or tanker aircraft because they want to set themselves up for a natural transition into the airlines eventually. So people get air sick. So they don't want to be, you know, going upside down and pulling Gs. But the class gets divided into different tracks, those who are pursuing fighter and bomber aircraft and those who are pursuing heavy aircraft. And so seven of us went into that fighter bomber track. So at the end of the year long

undergraduate pilot training, that's the number of people that were eligible for a fighter aircraft. And we ended up only getting two. So over half, two thirds of that group did not end up going to fly a fighter jet when it was all said and done. So it is very competitive. And yeah, I was kind of rolling the dice and I would just put it as much work as I possibly couldn't end up working out. Okay. And then there are different fighters that perform different missions. I know they are forces now, unfortunately, phasing out the A10, which I think was one of the best planes ever created. I think your husband might think that too.

But there's also the F15, as we talked about, the F16 and the new generation of fighters now. What specific role was the F16 designed to perform? So the-16 is kind of unique. It's very multi-role. So we kind of dabble in everything. A jack of all trades is what the Jets often referred to. Air to ground definitely was a primary mission, close air support in place like Afghanistan. The F-16 is good at that. You mentioned the A-10. That's like their primary mission. So they're very good at it. We also can do air-to-air, dog fighting, long range, air-to-air type stuff.

So the F-16 is just really widely proliferated throughout the US Air Force, as well as a ton of other countries, because it's so good at so many different things, which is one of the things that drew me to it, along with the fact that, you know, I thought back when I was thinking about my dream sheet, where you rank all the aircraft that you would want to fly, turns out it's really not up to you.

It's what the Air Force has available, but I went back and forth between A-10s and F-16s, because the close air support mission, where you're talking to American troops on the ground, you're the one that can come in and change the way the fight is going. And you can save lives. It's a very rewarding, but challenging mission. And I thought that that would be a really cool primary focus to have. So that drew me to the 810. I ultimately put F 16s first because we still do that mission, but we also have an afterburner. We can pull Gs.

We can fly upside down. And I thought back to that inspirational moment of watching those two jets take off that afterburner flame coming out the back of the jets was one of the things that really made me excited about going after that goal and started up putting vipers, which is what we call that 16 as my first choice. Yeah, I wanted to spend a little bit of time talking about first duty stations because you and I both went overseas for our first ones. I happened to go to rot bit of time talking about first duty stations because you and I both went overseas for our first ones. I happened to go to roto spain and you ended up going to Japan. But in my situation, it was as if I got a lot of first duty stations because I was what was called

a direct support officer. And so although I was stationed in Spain, I would go on short to medium length deployments. And so all the time, I was deploying to a new ship or submarine or whatever. And it's always hard when you join any of these new units, but especially when it's your first one. Can you tell me a little bit about that tour of duty in Japan and why it became a significant part of your growth journey? Yeah, so I was just thinking about what that would have been like for me going through kind of the career trajectory you went through because you're young in a new challenging career and there's battle to kind of find your footing and learn your new trade which coming into flying F-16s, especially in Japan with the mission there and just the geographical location and all the

different things we needed to focus on was very, very challenging. And for the first time, all through training, I had different points where I struggled a little bit here and there, but I could, I always get my arms around it if I studied enough. I put in enough work. I worked with other people in little groups to study stuff.

And I was like, okay, I eventually get this concept. And I felt like I had learned so much over the last three or four years going through all the training programs. And then I get to Mesawa to Japan. And I realized I know nothing. Like I can fly the airplane well, but that is just such a tiny piece of actually being a fighter pilot, the tactics,

and all the technical information. And then you add on understanding enemy systems, and the technical side of all of their sensors, and their surface air missiles, and all these things. And I just felt like I was drowning in the amount of stuff that I needed to learn. And I think that was the first point where I was also like, maybe being a criminal justice major,

was it really very helpful for flying fighter jets? Because a lot of my peers were engineering degrees, or physics, or anything that gave them at least a leg up on one part of the topics that we were learning where I felt like everything I was having to learn from the ground up. And then you layer that in with just being new to a unit and trying to find how you fit into the culture and kind of how you will establish your reputation and especially in fighter squadrons where they're very tight knit. And although there's a lot of f-16s in the Air Force, the community is fairly small

and you're pretty much told right away like, hey, your reputation will follow you from base to base. So you don't want to be a jerk when you're a lieutenant because it's going to follow you for the rest of your career So there's a lot of pressure to kind of find your footing and then you add on the complexity of gender being one of two women in a squadron of almost 50 pilots and I think it adds on this additional Feeling of kind of scrutiny and stress of the Air Force is kind of going through a cultural shift when I first got to Japan where they were getting away from some of the fighter pilot traditions that were a little bit

more edgy and not as politically correct some of them were things that now if people knew about they better can't believe that went on in a professional setting their force was intentionally trying to change that a little bit and being a woman during that time was an interesting time. And all the guys in my unit were great. I was friends with them. But they're still felt like a responsibility where if someone said something that was a little bit borderline and appropriate, the conversation would come to a screeching halt and every head in the room would turn and look at me to see what my reaction would be. And I am what 24 25 years old at this point, just trying to figure out how to be a fighter pilot.

And I did not want the added responsibility of deciding what was culturally acceptable for this entire unit. And that's the commander's job. Not me as the brand new lieutenant. And I also felt the responsibility like whatever I did put up with was establishing whatever the next woman was to follow my footsteps, what she would have to put up with. And so you kind of create these like added responsibilities and burdens for yourself. And I've talked to so many women who have been in similar roles to me and they all say the same thing.

And it really doesn't even come from the other people in the unit. A lot of it comes from just this own kind of spotlight effect that you put on yourself. And so all of that combined made for a really difficult assignment for me. I often felt like I somehow had snuck into the wrong career field and like I actually wasn't good enough to be there. And there were a couple of points where I had some bad flights. I also went through some personal stuff while I was there. I went through a divorce, which is hard no matter when or where it happens, but add that on to an already difficult time in my life professionally and being on the other side of the planet from all of my family. And it was really, really hard. And it just made me question everything.

Oh, there was a lot of times feeling like I was failing for the first time ever. And I kind of just shook my whole identity a little bit. So it's tough, but on the backside of that, there came a really rapid growth period that kind of catapulted me forward professionally and personally. And I don't think that that would have happened to that degree had I not gone through those struggles. It is definitely those struggles that rate such a pathway to growth and I guess resilience in our lives. So I'm glad you shared that story.

And I'm just going to tell you a little bit of my story. So my first deployment, I'd been in Rota just a couple months and they send me out to a destroyer called the ComptiGRA. And I didn't know much about this ship and before getting on board, I just had heard that it was showing up to the deployment late. I ended up getting on board in a couple of my Naval Academy classmates were actually stationed aboard the ship. And I could tell immediately upon running into them one who I knew quite well that something was definitely not right. And it turned out that the ship

had suffered the first sabotage for a warship, I think in over a hundred years. Eddie Officer had decided it would be a great idea to put two by fours into the reduction years. And so it caused all kinds of issues. And in fact, after our deployment, they mothballed the ship because it had so much cavitation. It was sitting duck for some rains. But when I got on board, here I am in Ensen going on my first ship and within the first week, the engineering officer was fired about three weeks later, the exo was fired, then eventually the commanding officer was fired. And I have never been anywhere in my life where the morale was so bad as it was at that point. And so like you, I'm sitting there going, never look at me, never prepared me for this situation, especially when you're that junior and officer and yet your responsibilities to provide in my case, all intelligence support for the ship as well as support from national security agency.

And so it was really an interesting three months for me to live in that environment. And I was so thankful I could get off the ship. Unfortunately, my friends could not. But it really did teach me a lot of things. Yeah, it's tough to come into a unit that already has all these things happening, right? There's already interpersonal relationships good or bad. There's already rapport established there can already be drama going on. You don't know about. There can be things that have happened a few months before you show up and all of that becomes part of the culture of the squadron. And when you show up, you're trying to step into that.

A lot of times without knowing what has happened because I think units, when something negative happens, they kind of tighten the ranks. They close it down. They don't want like word to get out to everyone. And so sometimes you'll show up and you'll be like, why is this so weird here? And then you'll start to hear through rumor mill

and it can be tough to navigate. And I don't think there's any sort of training that can really prepare you for that. And I think it can really be mitigated by some really strong leadership at the top. One stuff like that does start to happen where they're able to kind of set the tone and establish a way forward and give people some security instead of all that uncertainty, but not every commander is good at doing that. And it can be a lot to step into. Absolutely. Well, I know another thing that was at least challenging for me.

And I'd like to hear your viewpoint on it is when I went to Spain, I had this naive notion and I lived off base that I was going to be fully immersed in the culture. It was going to be so easy, et cetera. And where I lived in Southern Spain, practically none of the Spaniards spoke English. And so I was thrust into the situation where I'm in town. I can't really communicate. And so I was taking Spanish lessons, trying to get up to speed as fast as I could, yet I'm deploying all the time. So every time I'm learning something, I'm forgetting it. And then having to relearn it again. And I've been to Japan probably 20 times. And it is such a different

culture from what we're used to in the States. Did you experience that as well? Absolutely. And I like at least with Spanish, I think if that had been my situation, I'd be like learn enough basic phrases to get by. Japanese is a whole other battle just with the language being so different from English. It was a challenge. And I think it was kind of twofold. You don't really have a community outside of the community you have in the military, which can be great in some ways. You get really close with the people in your unit.

Your families are all friends. You spend holidays together. It becomes your second family. But if you're struggling and find yourself in a situation like I did with, you know, my divorce and the professional things going on, I needed some separation from that. I needed any sort of work-life balance, and there was just wasn't none because they were one in the same. And so, your entire community were my neighbors, where my squadron mates. That was tough, like I just wanted to get away from that environment a little bit and there was no reprieve and then you're yeah, I lived on base so it was like an adventure, but it is a little bit weird feeling a little uneasy feeling when you're traveling around and you can't understand anything,

can't read the signs, you're trying to stumble your way through things. And same in Masawa, English was not widely spoken there. So if you got down to Tokyo, there was always someone who spoke English who could help you. Like if you looked lost in the train station, some very nice Japanese person that spoke English

would come up and start talking to you. And it was awesome. I just didn't happen up north in Missala. And so there was a lot of kind of just figuring things out. And while it felt a little uncertain was doing it, it living there for three years, did give me a lot of confidence to travel internationally to places where I don't speak the language and know that it's going to be okay. And that you can figure things

out. You can ask someone, you can do pointy talky, you know, or you just point at things. You can use your cell phone now with Google translate. And you can have a pretty amazing experience traveling somewhere where you don't speak the language, even though it feels kind of scary when you first get there. Yeah, I remember when we got to pick our designations when I was a first year at the Academy, I had a choice of going to Rota, Masala, or the remote area in Australia. And I'm like, I'm not going into the middle of the desert in Australia. And then I start thinking about Masala in the five seconds you've got to make this choice.

And I'm like, Rota just seems like the best out of those three options. Yeah, for sure. I think a lot of people do love Moussawa. People that have small kids really love it there because it's so safe. Like the kids on base could just roam freely with no worries of where they were at

or if they were safe or like crime is so low there. But I think Europe assignments and the same in the Air Force are always at the top of everyone's lists. Like we have at 16s in Germany and in Italy and everyone is itching to get to those locations. Well, one of the things I always like to hear when I talk to my friends who are pilots is how they got their call sign.

How did you get Mace? Yeah, so I always could ask this question, right? And so for the listeners, I don't know. Fighter pilot call signs generally sound kind of cool. At least in the Air Force, I've noticed that Navy fighter pilot call signs. I think they have less of a standard of making them sound cool because I've met some interesting, I met some pilots with interesting call signs like Boug or tea bag or hog sweat and I was just like you wouldn't get those names in the Air Force. So I think the thresholds a little bit different by service. But for us, they're generally based on something dumb that you did a mistake you made as a young pilot early in your career. So we get named once we're done with mission qualification training. So you've usually been at your first combat squadron for maybe like four months or so at that point. And it's kind of like this right of passage at the end of that. You're a fully qualified

combat wingman. You could deploy the next day and go do the mission. And then you also get to get named. So I remember being very nervous before my naming because I realized that it was going to follow me for my whole career And it was gonna kind of become part of my identity And I like to save a little bit of mystery there because we traditionally in the Air Force at least only tell our full-call Sign story in person over a beverage which I'm sure is a ploy for people to get free beer But I always give like a general kind of 30,000-foot view for me It was a dog fighting situation.

Only my second flight in Japan, and I went supersonic when I shouldn't have. There's some considerations with temperature and jet engines and how they perform. And I had learned to fly the F-16 Phoenix, Arizona, where it was very hot. Turns out it performed slightly different in December in northern Japan, where they get 200 inches of snow per year.

But I went supersonic. I pulled a lot of Gs for a long time and nine Gs for almost a full 360 degree turn, which is not tactically what you want to do. It's not physically what you want to put your body through. I almost G locked and honestly at the time it was a pretty serious situation for me because I know other pilots who have crashed and died because of that exact kind of thing happening. You know, you G Locker unconscious, you're the only pilot in the aircraft. Now, no one's controlling the jet. Usually happens at high speed. Sometimes it happens when you're in an attitude already pointed towards the ground. And there's not a lot of margin there for time to recover and recover the aircraft. And so it's a serious thing we're

warned about constantly. And that was definitely the closest I'd ever gotten. So I walked away from that flight. That was what started that spiral of, oh, I'm actually not good enough to be here. I'm not gonna survive in this community. Like, how did I get here? Like what, what's happening?

Yeah, so I always save the exact meaning of Mace because it's an acronym for in person. And people will stop me in the airport. If I see them and they recognize me, they'll stop and ask, I've told the story many times in an airport. Yeah. Or in keynote presentations, when I'm presenting to people in person, I will tell the whole details story. So I know that's a little bit of a teaser, but that's what you get. Well, I'm not sure if you know her, but I recently had a fellow

Air Force officer on the show who's also a fighter pilot, Kim Campbell. And she flew a 10s. Yep. And her call sign is Casey. And I'm like, what a cool call sign. It's your first and last name. And she goes, no, it's killer check. Yep. I had another fighter pilot on the show about a year ago,

my friend Keegan Gill. I'm not sure if you're familiar with them. His call signed a smarf. But you talk about the maneuver that you were just doing. He was dogfighting his commanding officer in a super hornet and came out of a maneuver. And he thought that the aircraft was going to do one thing. And the F-18 unbeknownst to him and many pilots as a self-limitator that it puts on the aircraft.

So if they're pulling G's that could potentially damage the airframe, it will a dead stick, unable to do anything and ends up going in a direct dive towards the ocean and ejects doing just under Mach 1 about 400 feet above the ocean and somehow survives. So that's another great episode if you want to hear about how we managed to escape from that circumstance, but I can only imagine how at that rate of speed, whether it's an NF 16 or an F 18, either one of your situations, you only have so many seconds to react before you either pull out of it or some major ramification happens. Yeah, absolutely. And ejecting is no joke. I think a lot of people are like, oh, you have this like catch all fail safe. You have an ejection seat. So if something goes wrong, I get it's fine. I mean, ejecting at high speed, like you're talking about in his situation, I'm sure he had a lot of injuries coming out of that.

People will break their backs, they'll dislocate shoulders. Like you get flailing injuries to your legs. People die from ejections, even though everything went as planned as far as how the seat works and the parachute work. So it's a serious business. It's not something that any of us ever want to have to do. It is there and there's been a lot of people that have successfully ejected and gone on to continue flying eventually, but it's a scary prospect and no one ever wants to pull that handle. No, unfortunately, he still has ramifications because when he did go in at that speed,

he had compound fractures and multiple body parts, traumatic brain injury. And when he woke up three weeks later coming out of a coma, I think the ramifications fully set in. So he did go back and fly for a little bit, but unfortunately, he eventually got medically disqualified and retired from the service because of his injuries. So make sure you really realize the perils of flying one of these high performance aircraft, which leads me to from there, speaking of instructing you go on to Texas as a flight instructor to then training Polish F-16 pilots, your journey took another global spin. Could you take us inside this whirlwind experience

and what insights did this cross-cultural endeavor gift you both as a pilot and a human man? Yeah, so that was kind of on the tail end of going through this really low point in Japan, moving to my next base and realizing that this wasn't just going to fix itself. Like I need to be intentional with pushing myself to climb out of kind of the low point I was at. So I started to take a lot of uncomfortable calculated risks in like small forms. And, you know, I did that in my personal life with some hobbies and stuff I got into without door stuff and some international travel that I did. And slowly that started to give me more confidence. And the cockpit as well, and I became an instructor

like you mentioned, I got to deploy Afghanistan, which going through a successful deployment. There's a lot of uncertainty when you're young and you haven't done that yet. And it does give you a confidence boost going through it and coming home and having nothing major go wrong. So I think all of these little things were happening that we're growth experiences that felt uncomfortable at the time, but we're pushing me as a person overall. And Poland was just such a great example of how we can get in our own way. I see this email come through where they're looking for American F-16 instructor pilots to spend the summer and pull in teaching and flying their jets teaching their pilots. And my initial gut reaction was one of like this seems so awesome what a cool opportunity. You get to travel abroad you get to live there for three months. I'd never been to Poland. They have really nice F-16s that are newer than ours, which was appealing. I just saw it as like this amazing opportunity.

And then just this is all happening in a few seconds. I immediately start to think about all the like self doubt, you know, it starts to flow in like I had just been certified as an instructor pilot for a few days when I saw that email. And that was one of the criteria to be qualified. And so all the other instructors in my squad are more experienced. I knew Poland didn't have female fighter pilots, at least in the Viper. And so I knew that there would likely be some weird cultural things to navigate there. And that adds a whole layer of complexity.

And so all of these reasons why I shouldn't do it started to like flow into my head. But because I had kind of been on this intentional journey where I was taking a lot of time to reflect and try to gain perspective on who I was and who I could become I recognize that happening. And I almost like took this step back and was like, no, you dumb dumb like this is exactly the type of thing you're trying to work towards being able to do like why would you eliminate yourself from it? So I went to my commander and he ended up being like, yeah, let's apply or let's put your name in the hat and let's do it. And I got picked to go and I spent three months there and it was an interesting time. Like there were a bunch of cultural things to navigate. It turns out, especially with the older generation of Polish pilots, their younger guys had been Western trained down in Tucson. So they already had similar idea of tactics that I had been used to flying. They already had similar kind of culture and the squadron,

but then you kind of had like the old guard guys who were close to retirement, who were kind of like salty and cynical and they honestly just ignored me completely. Like we'd pass in the hallway, they wouldn't acknowledge me, we never flew together. And I guess that was fine. Like I could do my job there with that being the way it was. It wasn't anything that was like, she shouldn't be here or anything aggressive like that. So that ended up not being that big of a deal. When you're a new instructor

pilot, there's aways this period of kind of cutting your teeth and getting repetition in and learning the mistakes that students will make, how far to let them go down the road towards failure, where they're going to learn a lot, but not what you and or themselves in a dangerous situation. And so some of that can't be taught. It just comes with experience. And so I was learning all that feeling that out as a new instructor in Poland. You know, there's all of those guys spoke English, but there was still a little bit of a language barrier with accents and just English is a second language. There was some stuff to overcome there when you're just speaking about complicated technical

tactics. So it was challenging. There were a lot of times where I was like, oh man, I'm kind of nervous for this flight. Or I don't really feel like I fit in here or whatever it was. But by the time I left, I walked away with some really incredible friends that I had flown with and I'm still talk to you today. And I again walked away with a big confidence boost in my ability to step into a situation that feels kind of scary and uncertain and get through it and learn a ton from it. And so it was really a growing experience overall. and get through it and learn a ton from it. And so it was really a growing experience overall.

I wanted to just follow up with your experience in Afghanistan because can you paint a vivid picture for the listeners on the emotional switch from going from training flights or even flights when you're not going into a combat situation to the gravity of combat missions? Yeah, it's for sure. I'm not how prepared you are. It's for sure an added level of stress and responsibility.

And you feel that on your shoulders, and especially being in a single seat aircraft, where you have a wingman and you can plan, join a tax together and you can kind of bounce ideas off of each other. But you're ultimately completely responsible for everything that happens in your aircraft, any weapon or munition that comes off your jet, what happens with that when it impacts, like that is all on your shoulders. And you also, of course, more than anything, don't want someone on your side to get hurt accidentally. And so there is a lot of responsibility

that comes with that. And I did attacks there that were very benign. Like I had done a lot more stressful kind of simulations in training and even the most straight forward daytime, good weather, benign attack. When you push the pickle button, which is the button that releases like the bomb off your jet, there is an elevated level of stress. Your heart rate goes up. You definitely, definitely feel that. And I think maybe that gets toned down with more experience, but I for sure

experienced that on my first deployment. And I wanted to just go back to your experience and Poland for a second, only to ask that there's been a lot of talk about Ukraine potentially getting some F-16s and there's been some pushback obviously from our leadership because they as I understand it, think it could be a difficult transition for the pilots to go from Russian aircraft to an F-16 from your perspective, how difficult a training evolution would that be for their pilots. would that be for their pilots? I think it's hard to say for sure without knowing how proficient their pilots are currently, but I think they're already fighter pilots. They already have tactics that they're using. The F-16 is going to be a lot more user-friendly. Like it's going to provide a lot more situational awareness than the aircraft they have been flying. It's got more capable pretty much everything. So there will for sure be a spin up and they are going to have the proficiency level of someone who's gone through the year long be that could really amplify their ability to own the airspace over where they are now. So it's like,

will it be a perfect solution? Probably not, but it's better than nothing. Well, thank you for that. And becoming a Thunderbird or a Blue Angel is a remarkable accomplishment. So few pilots ever get the opportunity to be part of such a high-performing unit. Can you share the pivotal moments and decisions that led you to this prestigious role? For sure, it was a long time coming, but I didn't quite recognize it until late in the game. Various points throughout my career. So the first time I actually saw the Thunderbirds fly, I had already track selected or already gotten the Simon of F 16s. I was at the end of pilot training at my pilot training base in Columbus, Mississippi. I was kind of in this like weird period where I was waiting to go on to my next base to start F 16 training, but I was still there.

And so that was the first time I saw a team fly. It wasn't as a little kid. And I just remember me like, that is so cool. But at that time, it wasn't like, Oh, I want to go do that eventually. It was just like, wow, that jet's cool. Like all the stuff it can do is awesome. I get to go fly that eventually. This is great. But various points throughout my career, the Thunderbirds would get talked about maybe when they were hiring or they were coming to an air show and you're the base you were at or people would just talk about them in general. Someone you know might be applying whatever and every time I kind of would like my ears would perk up. That sounds interesting. That sounds like an exciting fun fulfilling mission, cool flying. But I never told anyone that it was something I was interested in and I never said it as a goal for myself. And I always had this feeling of like doubt in kind of the pit of my stomach where I was like, I don't think I'm actually good enough to fly at that level and be part of that team. So I'm not going to set this goal because I tell anyone about it now there's accountability and I don't like like that there's a high chance I'm not going to actually achieve it. So I kind of just kept it all to myself. And then while I was in Japan, the last probably six to eight

months that I was there, I was the safety observer for the pack-off demo team, which is the single jet F-16 demonstration that does stuff all over Asia. So they would do shows in, you know, all parts of Japan, Malaysia. They would go down to India They went to Australia and they always have a second pilot who's more junior that doesn't actually fly the demo Both flies a spare aircraft To the show locations in case something there's a maintenance issue and the demo pilot needs to move to the other aircraft And so I volunteered to do that because I needed to get out of Japan for all the reasons I already discussed and it was a way to do it. And so I got to go to all these great locations for air shows, even though I wasn't flying the demonstration.

I was still getting to interact with the crowd. And I remember specifically in Japan and in Malaysia, they don't have any female fighter pilots. And so the crowd seeing me land in F-16 and knowing that I flew that jet was just a lot of them were like for real, like you flew that, is that that actually happened? And then the reaction from the women though was incredible. They were so excited, so empowered. I had several Japanese women tell me that they were going to be the first female fighter pilot in Japan. Like they were just so excited and I kind of to be the first female fighter pilot in Japan. Like, they were just so excited.

And I kind of realized that I was having this really positive impact on these women. I was like, that was cool. That was really rewarding. Set that aside, I went on to Texas. I did three years there, the deployment, the trip to Poland, all that stuff. Actually, I follow on assignment to go to New Mexico

to teach at the F-16 schoolhouse to teach brand new F-16 pilots. And again, an email comes across from Air Force Personnel Center, which they send out random stuff all the time. And I usually just deleted it and didn't read it. And I happened to open this one. And I saw that it was the hiring message for the Thunderbirds. And it wasn't the like, hey, hiring is opening. Get your applications in.

It was like, we've already announced this three times. This is the last warning. You have to have your application in by next week. And that's the cutoff. Of course, that's the one I saw. So I read through the requirements for whatever reason. And I was like, wow, I actually meet all of these. I'm beyond the minimum. It's by quite a bit to qualify to apply. And whatever it was, you know, the place I had been just in personal growth and kind of building my confidence in the jet, I was like, I think I should apply for this. And so I went to my boss who could have just crushed it right there very easily because I totally missed the initial window, right? Like we're in the short hairs as far as

getting an application in the basin. New Mexico is already expecting me. They're a short man instructor pilots. So they're like anxiously awaiting my arrival to help with the workload. And I went to him and I was like, I got the email, I saw the email like, what do you think? And I always think that's such a good example of like leadership and knowing your people and being a mentor to them because he could have made a decision one way or the other and I would have gone with it either way. He could have just been like, sorry, Mace, like we're, it's a little bit late,

it's just not gonna work this time. And I would have been like, okay, and I would have gone off to New Mexico. But instead, he knew me really well and he was like, I think you would be great for this job. What do we need to do to get your application and like how can I help? So he made phone calls to get letters of recommendation.

We got everything submitted just within a few days. And I ended up getting an interview, becoming a semi-finalist with 12 other people for three spots. He called back a couple of months later as a finalist down to six people for three spots, and eventually getting the call that I was going to be hired as a solo pilot for the team. So it was a little bit of a kind of, you know, knee jerk reaction when I saw that email, like, I think I should go after this opportunity.

This just feels like the right time. And then having the courage finally to be like, I'm going to put myself out there and apply even though there's a good chance I won't get hired and probably will fail and it ended up working out. And I mean, it's completely changed what I'm doing with my life now. It's changed my outlook on things. I've been able to impact so many people positively.

It's like the most rewarding thing I've ever done. And I, I'm so grateful that I opened that email and went and talked to my boss that day. Yeah, well already you've covered three different examples where you push yourself out of your comfort zone. Now, the one in Japan where you were going with the demo team, going to Poland, and then this one. So I think it's a great example for the listeners that even if there's something that you don't think is within reach, we sometimes put those self-limitating factors on ourselves instead of just giving ourselves the opportunity to pursue the goals that we really want in life. Yeah, absolutely. I think a few people have said kind of the slogan of like make them tell you know, I don't eliminate yourself before you've even given it a shot and I think

we do that so many times. I mean, I still catch myself considering doing that, even though I'm literally pushing other people and trying to teach them how to be bold and take those small steps and, this is what you want. Why would you do that? And I think just having that perspective to recognize it and stop it and actually make kind of informed decision based on what your big goals are, what your endgame goals are. It could be pretty powerful. About a year ago, I had major Katie Higgins cook on the podcast who was the first Lohangell's female pilot.

She flew fat Albert, but she was telling me that when she got selected, you think it's the selection process where you go in and as you said, you're one of the 12 and then six and whatever. She didn't realize going in how big a role the existing team members play in picking who's part of the team because especially in your circumstance, their lives are going to be on the line when you're flying next to them. And she was telling me, it's really,

how do you fit in? How does your personality mesh? How much camaraderie do they feel? Was that a similar experience to you joining the Thunderbirds? Absolutely. A lot of times people will be like, you flew for the Thunderbirds, the best pilots in the whole Air Force.

And of course, we like to be called that, but it's not necessarily true. You're not always hiring the best hands-on pilot. There's like a certain level of proficiency that you of course have to have in an aptitude to learn the maneuvers. But so much of it comes down to how you will fit into that team dynamic. I think it's similar for the blues. We're on the road 240 days a year. So you are with those people are more than you're with your family. You are in those situations where you have to trust your life in their hands on a daily basis. You can't have personality conflicts that are creating like poison in the well that are just spreading through the organization. That can be the most catastrophic thing to flying a safe demonstration

and a good demonstration. So, a ton of weight is put on creating the best team dynamic. Yeah, I think it's important for the listeners to understand that although the Thunderbirds don't see combat, that doesn't mean it's an easy life because I understand for you and the blues, as you were saying, the schedule is scrolling. You guys trained from March to November, off and away from your home base in Las Vegas, which I didn't realize until I was doing my research for this, that the Thunderbirds were even based in Las Vegas. And then my understanding is you only get one day off a week, which is a Wednesday.

Is that pretty accurate? Exactly. You nailed it. Yeah, show season is March through November. So that's when you're really on the road. And sometimes that one day off're really on the road. And sometimes that one day off a week, the Wednesday weekend is at home, but sometimes it's not. We would link shows together if they it made sense geographically like multiple East Coast or Eastern half of the US shows instead of bringing the jets all the way back to Vegas. So you have to be there. There's no backup pilots. There's no taking leave during that time. So you are missing any weddings, graduations, kids baseball games birthdays anniversary. You're missing all that.

And for three years is how long I was on the team. So it is a huge sacrifice for you and your family, despite it being a cool job and you getting to experience some of the most incredible things. and you getting to experience some of the most incredible things, it 100% becomes a grind. And there's points late in the season around August, September, where you still have a couple of months to go. So you don't quite feel like you're getting that extra momentum as the light at the end of the tunnel approaches, but you've been doing it for months and months. And your sleep gets messed up with constantly changing time zones. It's hard on your body physically. People get tired. So you can see it. It morale starts to drop a little bit during the season around that time. People have the thousand yard stare and you're just trying to get through the next air show. And then you add on top of that that you're a public figure. You're an ambassador for the military. So you are constantly doing public facing things. You're

doing media interviews. You're doing school visits. You're are constantly doing public facing things. You're doing media interviews, you're doing school visits, you're being, you're signing autographs, you're being stopped by people constantly who are likely having their only interaction with a Thunderbird or a Blue Angel pilot, and you have to make that positive for them. Even if you're tired and your back hurts and you're finally getting to escape to quick run to the bathroom and you've had to go for an hour and someone stops you. That happened all the time. And that gets exhausting. I'm not going to, it gets tough. Yeah. So I actually had a firsthand view into this when I was a midshipman, I happened to pull into port for some recruits into Seattle and the Seattle seafarer was going on and the blues were performing and the sponsor family that I had.

I'm not sure if it's the same at the Air Force Academy, but at the Naval Academy, we have sponsor families and one of the previous midshipmen that they had sponsored was now the lead solo for the blues. the Blues. And so he knew I was coming there and they hooked me up with a flight suit, a Blues flight suit. And so for the whole weekend, I walked around with them and saw firsthand what it was like to be them. And it is the only other thing I could imagine from what I experienced was like being a rock star or maybe being an astronaut because it was just constantly on the go from one event to the next, just putting on a performance almost whether you were in the cockpit or out of it. 100% and we would often say that we were kind of like our bodies were getting beat up like professional athletes, but we didn't quite have the support that they get with athletic trainers

and physical therapists and cold plunges and all the things like you just the military doesn't have that support system them resources to do that. So you start to get the physical ailments that start to pop up more and more further into the season you get. But then yeah, we're like a band on tour. It's just like I don't want to use this example, but I'm going to it's like being Taylor Swift going from one concert to the next in a new city all the time and never really having time to yourself. And that sounds really cool. But there's for sure some sacrifices that come with it. And it's that was one of those things that's hard to really honestly describe to people because you don't want to sound

ungrateful for the opportunity. So many people, that's like a dream job. And it is for all of us who apply as well. But it's still challenging. There's just, I'm not going to lie and say that it's still challenging. There's just, I'm not going to lie and say that it's not. Well, one of the things John told me and I, I'm sure it was the same for you, is that people don't realize the amount of athleticism that you have to have to be in any one of these positions because he was telling me that the weight of the stick could be anywhere from 20 to 40 pounds, and it could give you tonight. He was talking about when he was pulling the G's like I'm sure you did that he would after a show sometimes lose five to eight pounds of water weight just because of how much physical exertion he was doing. Did you experience some of

the same things? Yeah, so there's some differences between the F 18 F 16 as far as the side stick and the stick pressure. The legacy Hornet they were using a spring for resistance and we use like an electronic trim. It's just a button on the stick, but same thing we always flew with resistance on the stick. The maximum in the F 16 those 20 pounds. to 12 pounds, but still this is for 45 minutes straight. So 10 to 9 is definitely a thing. Your hand would go numb parts of your fingers would go numb. I actually still I've been out of the Viper for over a year and a half. I still when I sleep at night, like these fingers go numb. And it's to all tied to nerves up here. So hopefully that'll go away eventually. We'll see. So it's definitely a thing. And then, you know, the blue angels, they pull seven and a half Gs, we pull nine Gs, but we wear G suits, they don't wear G suits.

So I think physically it's pretty equally demanding. And that compression on your body all the time definitely starts to do some wearing tear on like your neck and your back and stuff. But also these airships are happening in the summer. So the bulk of the show season is hot, whether it's in Florida and it's humid or it's in Las Vegas and it's just 110 degrees, you are sweating a ton. You regularly are getting out of the jet and your show suit is a darker color

blue than when you got in because you've sweated through it. Yeah, I have radio off, but they myself, so I can understand having numb fingers because ever since I was at the military, I've radio off but they myself so I can understand Having numb fingers because ever since I was at the military. I've had the same thing different circumstances It's but it sucks. Yeah, it does. It's annoying and it's uncomfortable and it wakes you up and you're like Yeah, I'm not a fan. It's not painful per se mine isn't at least but still for sure in annoyance It is well, I want to talk about now, life after the Thunderbirds because you ended up making a huge career shift. And I understand that you just recently released a children's book and June titled Upside Down Dreams.

What were you hoping that kids would take away from it? Yeah, so I made quite the pivot. I decided to not go fly for the airlines, which is what most people do coming out of military aviation. I kind of knew I was in a unique position and I had built these really loyal people that were really invested in what I was doing and the Thunderbirds, but to go behind that and be very vulnerable with people and talk about self-doubt and imposter syndrome and fear and all those things is unexpected from a fighter pilot in general, but especially from a Thunderbird or a Blue Angel pilot. So I saw that was powerful for people. And so I'm doing that for corporate audiences now through keynotes, which has been really

incredible. But I also really loved having a positive impact on kids and especially little girls, countless times after an air show, I would get out of the jet, I would go up to the autograph line and a lot of moms would drag their daughters up and they would be like, look, this, look, she's number five, she just flew that jet

that you saw and when they realized that, when they put it all together, it was like their eyes would light up and they had this realization where you could just see that they suddenly realized that there was more possible that for them in the world and they thought just a few minutes prior and to be able to do that for a kid is the coolest thing I've ever done. That's cooler than the cool flying. I was at the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum my first year with the Thunderbirds and I went to the bookstore I saw there were a lot of great kids books there, but there weren't a ton Where there was a little girl that wanted to be a pilot or there was a female pilot that would be relatable for a kid There were some historical figures Amelia Earhart that kind of thing

But I feel like there was a little bit of a gap there and so it was then that I decided I wanted to eventually write a kid's book about a little girl who wanted to be a fighter pilot. And that was four years ago. And my book just came out about two months ago. So it was quite the process. Lots of time, ready a manuscript, getting some insight from a lot of great people who kind of helped me refine it,

pitching to agents and getting no response because that's how the publishing world works. And then during the pandemic, I had some more time to focus on it. And it wasn't until I was actually separated from active duty and focusing on my speaking stuff. And I became really active on LinkedIn. Someone reached out on there about ghost writing a professional development book, which I wasn't ready to do yet at that time. But I happened to mention that I had a children's book manuscript. She made some intros and a week later,

I was working with publisher and the book was being, you know, put together to be launched. And it's been so cool to see all the photos of kids reading it. To hear the stories from parents, I was recently at EA Ashgash, which is like the mother of all air shows and fly ins are almost 700,000 people there. Over 10,000 airplanes flew in that week. It's in Wisconsin, my home state. And I got to do book signings. And so many of these kids came up and they had already ordered the

book on Amazon and they had been reading it and they were coming to get their copy signed. And just to hear them talk about how much they love Lily, which is the main character and how they wanna be a fighter pilot someday now. And all these things to see the perspective that it changed for them was really cool because kids pick up on subtle little signals. Even if they have the most amazing supportive parents who are like, you can do whatever you want when you grow up,

you can do anything. Those kids are still the ones that would come up to be and be heartbroken because someone told them that only boys could be pilots. And I've had countless little girls tell me that. And the fact that those conversations still happen between kids tells you a lot that society still signals that. And so I saw having Willie Pudilly be the main character in this book as a way to kind of signal the opposite that there's a space for all kids to dream big in the aviation space or in whatever it is for them, regardless of their gender, regardless of their background.

And it's just been so cool to see it out there in the world. That's awesome. I just interviewed a couple of weeks ago, Laura Vanderkamp, who wrote if you give a mouse a cookie and the ensuing books, I think she's written 40 plus children's books now. What is the key ingredient to a successful children's book? I mean, this is my first time doing this, but I think illustrations have to be compelling for the kid, which I had nothing to do with. So props to my illustrator, Skyler, because she brought my vision and words to life and did an amazing job. But I think they have to somehow relate to it or see themselves in it. If they're real little rhyming and that kind of stuff is fun. But if you get into the slightly older kids, which this book is four to seven year olds are really like the target audience. Those kids want to see something

that gets them excited and makes them imagine all of these new worlds that they could be part of. And I think that's why Lily's character was really important to me to make her just a relatable seven year old that other kids could see themselves in. Well, throughout this episode, you've talked a number of times about how you've been a fear confrontor and have embraced discomfort and stepped out of your comfort zone. You have now become what I call a brand re-inventor because anyone who steps out of the military, it's not a very easy transition. And the easy transition for you to have made, as you said, would have been to go fly for American or United.

Can you give some tips to the audience that if they are trying to look at a reinvention of themselves, what were some of the things that worked for you and what were some of the unexpected things that you've had to go through? Yeah, so I think just realizing that there's probably more options than you thought is a big first step because I've talked a lot of my peers and they still are like, I only know how

to fly airplanes. The only thing I can go do after I finish my military time is to fly for the airlines and I'm like, you have so many more skills that translate to so many other things that you don't even realize. So kind of recognizing that and asking yourself what you really are passionate about, what gets you excited. And that might make you recognize some other opportunities, which is how speaking came into mind for me, I just realized how much I loved positively impacting other people and need to find a way to do that. But as I was approaching my time on active duty ending,

my view on networking and mentors and leveraging the people that are willing to help you out has completely changed when I was early on the Thunderbirds. There were some people that were more senior on the team who were just like the best experiences, cool stuff all the time. And I'm just like, you're kind, like I just don't love doing that. It feels kind of like skeasy, but they were so successful at it. And now I've come to realize that in the civilian space, using your network is how everything gets done. And there's so many ways to do it

with actually caring about that person and that relationship and doing it authentically and genuinely that isn't like where you're just using them and going on to the next thing and it doesn't give those like used car salesmen vibes. And so kind of recognizing what your goal is and tapping into your network, I think when you verbalize that you have this thing

you wanna go do, all these people that you never even thought of or imagined will show up for you. And it's been one of the biggest or imagined will show up for you. And it's been one of the biggest surprises, I think, for me, the number of people who reached out on LinkedIn or on Instagram or on email, who I'd never met or had met briefly at an air show where we had this really quick little interaction, probably while I was on the way to try to use the bathroom. And they're like, Hey, I happen to see that you're starting a speaking business. And I happen to work for this company and we have this event coming up and we'd love to support you.

And just the amount of people that showed up for me was awesome. And I think that's true for most people, but it can be, it can feel kind of weird to ask for what you want. And so I really encourage people to be willing to put themselves out there and do that. And then I intentionally looked at where I had gaps in skills and knowledge and how I could fill those. So I knew I was going into an industry that I was just learning about. I knew I had done a ton of on camera interviews while I was with the team.

I did school visits on stage, but I was not a 45 minute big stage keynote speaker. I just didn't have that experience and I'm a little bit introverted and shy and and you into it. And I really put in touch the effort into becoming as good at it as I could. And the rest of it is really just recognizing that it's okay to start something even when you don't feel ready. Just knowing that you're going to figure it out as you go. I think so many people hold themselves back and they're like, now's not the time because I don't quite have a full grasp on this. I don't have that skill yet. This is going on in my life.

If you're waiting until you feel like, Oh, heck, yeah, I'm totally ready for this. You're going to wait for a very long time for a lot of people forever. And if you're not, when you eventually get there, you're probably thinking small, you're not playing big enough at that point because you're the experience that you're going after is not big enough to really grow you as much as it potentially could. So I really encourage people to be okay going after those things where there's a little bit of uncertainty and knowing that you're going to learn and you're going to evolve and you're going to grow throughout the process.

Well, thank you so much for that, Michelle. And the last thing I wanted to do with you was to go through a quick lightning round of questions. The first one is kind of a yes or no question. Is it true that when you're flying in the Thunderbirds, that the way that you time all these maneuvers is by using a stopwatch? True, yes. That always just gets me. I remember that's what my friend who flew in the blue said as well. What are five things that you can't live without? Oh, five things.

Healthy foods, like it's really important to me to have some sort of healthy options. I'm not like a really strict on it. You know, I love some ice cream, but generally healthy food options, uh, a way to get physical activity, whether that's just taking a walk outside or a run or getting to the gym, I think a confidant in some form, whether that's my husband or a close friend or close colleague, just that person you can really trust. So you don't feel alone when you're wondering about things and struggling with things. These are all like very high level answers.

I'm like, could I just say like Diet Coke or something? Oh, on that coffee, I love coffee so much. So that's it easy. Softball answer for number four. Highly caffeinated. Love me some coffee. Number five. I think this is another big scope one really like a purpose. I am very goal driven and I've always been that way and I think that's led to the various successes that I've had. And if I don't have some sort of objective that I'm working towards, whether that's like running a marathon or that's growing my business a certain amount or that's getting good at

speaking, I get a little stir crazy. So I think some sort of purpose. Okay. If you were given the opportunity to host the late night show, and you found yourself in the car getting to do car karaoke, who would you want sitting next to you performing? Oh, so I can pick any singer, huh? This is tough.

I mean, I need, I'm really not a good singer. I need someone that could heavily cover up my voice. So I must say Kelly Clarkson, which is the randomest thing because I got to be on her show while I was on the Thunderbirds. And it was just such an incredible experience. She's just a good person. And I think a lot of people that have public figures aren't necessarily genuinely as nice as they portray themselves as. And she was just awesome to everyone on her staff, to us, to the Thunderbirds, Polka Fares,

to the little girl I got to just surprise on the show. It was just like a delightful experience. And so, yeah, have a little reunion, Kelly Clarkson. And her voice can for sure cover up my off-age. Yeah, she's a great one. She seems definitely the type who has not forgotten where she's come from and hasn't changed that much in who she is today.

So thank you for sharing that. And then my last one is a crowd favorite. And that is if you were selected to be one of the inaugural astronauts on the mission of Mars and the powers that be said that you could establish one edict law for this new inhabitants. What would it be? Oh man, this is a hard question. I thought you were going to say, would you want to go? I was like, well, this is, that's not too hard. I mean, you're like riding the Constitution for a new planet essentially, which gets into a whole bunch of things, right? I'm now I got to go listen to some other episodes and hear what other people have said,

because I feel like there's probably some good ones. Now I think tribalism and division is so bad right now and it's like, people are so mean to each other. I think it would be something along the lines of like, almost the golden rule of like treating each other with respect and how you wanna be treated. And that seems like such a basic level thing that you're taught in like kindergarten,

but there's a lot of adults right now that really suck at it. So I think like establishing a new planet where people genuinely are working for the greater good and they care about each other and they can have empathy for people that even if they're different from them, that would be a good start. Well, great. Well, and Michelle, if a listener wanted to learn more about you, where is the best place that they can go to for all things, Michelle. Yeah, I have quite a few different locations. I think the best one stop shop at this point is honestly on LinkedIn, which I'm Michelle

Mason quotes current on there. I write on there about five days a week and it's a lot of the stuff we talked about today. It's taking stories and lessons from my career and translating them into things that people can use personally and in businesses. And on my website and everything is linked through there. My website is macecurrent.com, just my call sign in my last name. And then if you're looking for really cool visuals, cockpit videos, photos, that kind of thing, Instagram, definitely, is where it's at. I have some really incredible flying videos on there still. And that's just mace underscore current.

Oh, great. Thank you so much for being a guest on the show. It was such a privilege to have you. Absolutely. This has been great. And I love the questions at the end. You asked me a lot of stuff I have not been asked before. Well, thank you. I always find that part fun. So thank you. I thoroughly enjoyed that interview with Michelle Macekern, and I wanted to thank Michelle for coming on the show this week. Links to all things Michelle will be in the show notes at passionstruck.com. Please use our website links if you purchase any of the books from the guests that we feature

here on the show. All proceeds go to supporting the show. And speaking of books, I am so excited to tell you about my brand new book, PassionStruck, 12 powerful principles to unlock your purpose and ignite your most intentional life. You can purchase it anywhere that you buy books or links will be in the show notes. Videos are on YouTube at both John Armyles and PassionStruck Clips. Advertiser deals and discount codes are in one community at PassionStruck.com slash deals. You can go to LinkedIn and sign up for my newsletter. I have a brand new newsletter on LinkedIn called Work Intentionally.

Go and check it out. You can also find me on all the social platforms at John Armiles. And lastly, you can sign up for my personal newsletter, live intentionally at passionstruck.com. You're about to hear a preview of the passionstruck podcast that I did with retired staff sergeant and New York Times bestselling author Travis Mills. Travis is not just a war hero. He is one of only five quadruple amputees to survive the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan,

and his journey from the battlefield to where he is today is nothing short of awe-inspiring. In our interview, we discuss his brand new book Bounce Back Back, Both Warrior Principles Reclaim and Recalibrate Your Life. In our discussion, Travis lays out a powerful roadmap of how to face life's challenges and emerge stronger on the other side. I think I'm just fortunate to still be around and I realize that instead of having survivor guilt and feeling like I should be down or out

because the people that make it back home, I realize that it wasn't my choice or my call. I didn't make it back home, but I can push forward in life and live to the fullest not only for myself, but also for the service members that didn't make it back home and their loved ones that no longer have them in their life. Remember, we rise by lifting others. And if you found today's episode useful, then please share it with your loved ones who can hear these inspiring words.

In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so that you can live what you listen to. Now, go out there this week and become aashinstruck. you