Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Mike Michalowicz on Why Great Leaders Build Invincible Teams EP 406

Starting point is 00:00:00 Coming up next on Passionstripe. Here's the irony, John. I recently heard this and it's resonating with me. So in the last few months, someone said it's easier to go 100% than it is like 95% because it makes choice very clear. So an all-in team has clarity on what the goal is for the collective team and has a reason to contribute 100% of themselves. And the leader speaks that too. The individual is as important as the team and the team is as important as the individual. Welcome to PassionStruck. Hi, I'm your host, John R. Miles.

Starting point is 00:00:34 And on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips, and guidance of the world's most inspiring people and turned their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you. Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself. If you're new to the show, I offer advice

Starting point is 00:00:55 and answer listener questions on Fridays. We have long form interviews the rest of the week with guests ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries, and athletes. Now, let's go out there and become Passionstruck. Hello everyone and welcome back to episode 406 of Passionstruck, consistently ranked by Apple as the number one alternative health podcast.

Starting point is 00:01:21 A heartfelt thank you to each and every one of you who return to the show every week, eager to listen, learn, and discover new ways to live better, be better, and make a meaningful impact in the world. I have an exciting announcement. The Passionstruck Quiz, a perfect companion to my soon-to-be-released book, Passionstruck, is now live. Curious to know if you're an imitator or an in the grand game of life, head over to passionstruck.com and take the quiz to find out. It's more than just a quiz, it's your first step towards a life of intention and fulfillment. If you're new to the show, thank you so much for being here. Or you simply want to introduce this to a friend or a family member, and we so appreciate it when you do that.

Starting point is 00:01:55 We now have episode starter packs, which are collections of our fans' favorite episodes, that we organize into convenient topics that give any new listener a great way to get acclimated to everything we do here on the show. Either go to Spotify or passionstruck.com slash starter packs to get started. And in case you missed it, earlier this week I had two great interviews. The first was with Dr. Mark Hyman, a number one New York Times bestselling author and a trailblazer in functional medicine. I welcome Mark back on the program to do a deep dive on the future of medicine. The second was with Dr. Elisa Pressman, a developmental psychologist and the beloved voice behind the hit podcast, Raising Good Humans. In this episode, Dr. Pressman invites us to let

Starting point is 00:02:29 go of the pursuit of perfection in parenting. She brings a refreshing perspective that challenges the high pressure norms of modern day parenting. I also wanted to say thank you for your ratings and reviews. And if you love either of those two episodes or today's, we would so appreciate you giving it a five star review and sharing it with your friends and families. I know we and our guests love to see comments from our listeners. Throughout the month of January, I am trying to bring guests onto the program as we get closer to the launch of my book that illustrate what it means to live a passion-struck life. Today, I'm thrilled to have a remarkable guest, Mike McAllowitz. Mike isn't just any business expert. He's a game changer in the world of entrepreneurship.

Starting point is 00:03:05 By the age of 35, he had already founded and sold two multi-million dollar companies. He's the best-selling author of transformative books like Profit First, The Pumpkin Plan, Clockwork, and Fix This Next. Today, he's here to share his latest insights from as much anticipated book all in. In this fast-evolving corporate world,

Starting point is 00:03:23 building a successful team has never been more challenging. With the advent of work from anywhere cultures, flexible schedules, and the complexities of bridging generational divides, leaders are constantly searching for the secret sauce to team success. They've tried everything, from office perks, like food and games, to intensive team building exercises and training programs. But the question still remains, what really makes a team unstoppable? Mike's new book, All In, is a beacon of hope for leaders at all levels. He reveals his proven formula for assembling and nurturing a team that not only works together but thrives together in any work environment.

Starting point is 00:03:56 Today, we're diving deep into the core principles that Mike outlines in this book. We're talking about the art of recruiting the right talent, transforming your struggling employees into superstars, and matching individual abilities to both client and company needs. It's about creating a workforce that is as invested in your organization's growth as you are. So whether you're a startup founder, a team leader, or someone aspiring to elevate their company culture, this episode is for you. Get ready to uncover the key formula for building and retaining your dream team, and learn how to truly commit to being all in for your employees. Thank you for choosing PassionStruck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life. Now, let

Starting point is 00:04:32 that journey begin. I am so excited to welcome Mike Michalowicz to the PassionStruck podcast. Welcome, Mike. John, it's a pleasure to be with you. Thanks for having me. So excited to welcome Mike Michalowicz to the PassionStruck podcast. Welcome, Mike. John, it's a pleasure to be with you. Thanks for having me. I always like to start these episodes out by giving the audience an opportunity to get to know you. Do you have a favorite motto or quote that has greatly influenced who you are today?

Starting point is 00:04:56 I have a few, but there's one that instantly jumped to mind. It's attributed to Oscar Wilde. I don't know if he actually is the one who said it. It's be yourself. Wilde. I don't know if he actually is the one who said it. It's be yourself. Everyone else has already taken. And for me, it just emphasizes that we need to express ourselves as we naturally are. We were put here perhaps for a reason

Starting point is 00:05:13 and lean into who you are. The amazing thing is people embrace that too. People like to see people who are truly themselves. Yeah, and I love that. And I'm not sure if you've ever run across Andreas Woodmer. He runs the MBA program at Catholic University. But earlier in his life, he was listless, and he ended up applying for becoming a Swiss guard for Pope John Paul II. And he told me that the Pope ended up

Starting point is 00:05:37 becoming just a great mentor for him. But he told him, the greatest mystery in life is what you just brought up in your quote. And that is finding our uniqueness, that thing that we were put on earth that only we can do. And I think that's a great way for us to both start out today. I'm afraid I'm bastardized to quote. There's a quote that says something like, the crew creates days in our life is the day we were born and the day we find out why we were born. That's great. And Mike, I understand that you had a formative experience dealing with your daughter's piggy bank that prompted you to change your relationship with work and how you show up in the world.

Starting point is 00:06:12 Can you discuss that moment and how in some ways it led you to creating your book, Profit First? Ironically, John, I think sometimes the darkest moments in our lives ultimately become the greatest moments in our lives if we can leverage that. And just to give context, I had built some businesses early on. I've been an entrepreneur my entire life and I had some early successes.

Starting point is 00:06:33 One of my successes is I built them and sold them. Private equity, Fortune 500, admittedly was arrogant. I was like, oh, I got this figured out. I'm a genius. Didn't really appreciate how much good timing or good fortune and good luck played into the success. Well, I started spending like crazy because I wanted to live this lifestyle, this large lifestyle and started becoming an angel investor, spending money left and right, investing in businesses because I'm like, I know everything about business clearly. This is my early 30s. Well, I lost everything

Starting point is 00:07:04 out of arrogance and ignorance. I didn't come home early 30s. I lost everything out of arrogance and ignorance. I didn't come home to my family. I'd been lying to them by omission. I didn't tell them how dark our financial situation was because I didn't accept it. I saw our bank account dwindling. Logically, I saw that, but emotionally, I wasn't ready to accept it. Thinking a big customer would swoop in or some big moment would happen and another investor would buy another one of my businesses. And I got a call from my accountant saying, you got to declare bankruptcy, which took the wind out of me, even though I knew it was coming. This is the moment I had to accept it. He said, there's one alternative because you can liquidate your free remaining assets to pay your

Starting point is 00:07:36 debts. But that's it. So I decided option B, I don't think my creditors were responsible for me. So I decided to liquidate a few things we had left. We got out of our house, we got rid of the cars. I came home to my family to tell them. They did not know what was going on. I knew things were stressful. I was under constant stress and told my wife, I was sobbing. She was sobbing our three children and said, we're going to lose our house. We're losing everything. And my daughter, at the time she was nine years old, John, and I told her, I can't afford to send you to horseback riding lessons.

Starting point is 00:08:08 It was something just to give context. It cost about $20 a session for a group of kids to go for a half hour. And we were broke because of me. My daughter ran out of the room. I remember so vividly, she was running out of the room and I'm like, that's what I want to do. I want to run away.

Starting point is 00:08:21 But I also felt this loathing for myself that I defined myself as a provider for my family. And yet my daughter's running away from me now. She wasn't actually running away. She was running to her bedroom and she grabbed her piggy bank and she ran back as fast as little gangly legs could and she puts on a table. She goes, Daddy, she says, I know you can't provide for her family anymore, but I'll start doing it and get emotional. I'll start doing it. And, uh, get emotional.

Starting point is 00:08:45 I've had so many times I still get emotional. It was the rock bottom moment of my life. I was so proud of her stepping up and her saving. She was actually saving for a horse with nickels and pennies. And one day I wanted to save it and that I had to compel my kids to save us, save me after I went through depression for a couple of years. So I, I share that not cause I'm proud of it, but save us, save me. After that, I went through depression for a couple of years. So I share that not cause I'm proud of it, but I think it's such an important component

Starting point is 00:09:11 of sharing that many entrepreneurs, most of us, we disproportionately as a community experience depression over any other communities as entrepreneurs, leaders. And I kept on reflecting on that moment, saying, what's to learn here? And it became a seed for change. What it did is it stripped me down from, I hope, that arrogance permanently. I don't know much about entrepreneurship.

Starting point is 00:09:34 I'm desperately trying to learn. I write tons of books because I have to learn this for myself. Everything I'm writing about is what I'm learning for myself. So it started this journey of exploration. I hope it never ends and I'm just curating ideas, assembling them, deploying them now in the businesses I own and hopefully helping other entrepreneurs in their journey to make it a little bit easier. Well, thank you so much for sharing that and for being vulnerable.

Starting point is 00:09:59 But I also wanted to talk about our kids because I saw myself and my son through your story. When I was growing up, I ran cross country and track. And I remember just how proud I was when my father was able to make it to the meets, especially knowing how busy he was with work. And my son also ran cross country and track. And at that time, I was the chief operating officer for a company. And as you know, when you're in that position, you don't have a ton of time. But I would intentionally plan ahead so that I could make as many meats as I possibly could. And you had a similar experience that I hope you could share. But more importantly,

Starting point is 00:10:33 I was hoping that you could share your philosophy of treating work like water. This is funny. My experience with track two, I remember this one period in my career. This was after my experience with my daughter and losing all of our money. I found that there's multiple forms of poverty, if you will, that entrepreneurs experience. So I've set a mission for myself, a life mission to eradicate entrepreneurial poverty.

Starting point is 00:11:00 What that is, is this gap between what we expect or want in our entrepreneurial endeavors and what we're experiencing. Most entrepreneurs, when I survey them, literally from here, I'm heading to the airport to speak to a large group of entrepreneurs, and I'll ask them, why did you start your business? And I'll hear, for financial freedom, for personal freedom, to do what I want, what I want, to express myself, to have a platform to do what my soul is calling out to do. And yet, we want things, we don't

Starting point is 00:11:25 experience almost any of them. And I think one of the biggest time sex is not financial freedom, it's personal freedom. We work exclusively for the business to the direct compromise of family time, personal time, friends. So after that experience with my daughter, and now I'm like, I gotta start a new business, I gotta get this going. I remember there was a consecutive period of five days where I didn't see sunlight at all. I would come in at about three, four in the morning, work until about seven or eight o'clock at night, head home just to sleep and get back to the grind. And I remember it was like, it was a Saturday or Friday. And I look, I came outside, I'm like, oh my gosh, I wonder what the sun is like, what this place looks like. I haven't seen it.

Starting point is 00:12:03 I wonder what the sun is like what this place looks like I haven't seen it well That was an epiphany that I was missing Perhaps the most formidable most important years of my children's lives Because I was always working my what my wife called me and said hey Mike There's a track meet ironically coming up and our son was playing a track my youngest son He's younger than my daughter. She's like you want to come and I'm like, yeah I need to come. And it was like three o'clock in the afternoon. I went, I was one of the few parents there

Starting point is 00:12:31 that this grind and hustle and grind mentality, I think it's more than just bad or inappropriate. It's actually promoted. There's major pundits who say, you got a hustle. How bad do you want to sacrifice everything for the job? And that's totally wrong. So I was one of the few parents there. And just seeing my son and seeing to your point, John, his face lighting up as he ran by and he saw that I was there.

Starting point is 00:12:55 And it's a moment I'll never forget. I also realized when I came back to work, there wasn't more work to do. There was still that same huge sack of stuff, but it wasn't like I didn't have to work longer that day. What I started doing is reprioritizing what was the most important stuff. There's always gonna be a stack of to-dos, always. So it's not, can you get through the stack?

Starting point is 00:13:14 It's just what is the most important stuff in that stack and keep moving that forward? The ultimate expression of this, and I actually wrote a whole book about it, it's called Clockwork, is how to get out of always doing. And one of the things I do now, and I've been doing for, I want to say six, maybe seven years, is take a four-week vacation. I intentionally remove myself from the business for four consecutive weeks of physical and

Starting point is 00:13:36 digital disconnect. And then I'm allowed to do that. I observe my business from afar. When I come back, what worked, what didn't work? What structures do I need to put in place? What back, what worked, what didn't work? What structures do I need to put in place? What contractors do I need that I don't have? How do we modify our business? And ironically, a business that can operate absent the owner is the healthiest business. These are businesses that are sellable that someone else wants. These are businesses where now you can

Starting point is 00:14:04 introduce perhaps your best talent, which is not doing the work, but designing the outcomes, seeing the vision of where you wanna take the business and being much more strategic about it. So that tracked me, I served me, but also connected me with my family. That is such a huge priority for me. And I love that story and something that I talk

Starting point is 00:14:23 as much as I can about on this podcast, because like you, I was a C-level in a Fortune 50 company. And people would say to me, man, you must be loving this, all the money you're bringing in, the title, the responsibilities you get to work with Michael Dell. But what they didn't see was the 80 to 100 hours per week that I was working. I was traveling almost two weeks per month overseas. And then when I got back into the office, I was constantly having to play catch up to all the political issues that were going on

Starting point is 00:14:51 and the HR issues that I was dealing with. And I remember being at such a low point, I was so burned out and I ended up going to see a career coach. And he said to me, I want you to picture a stool in your kitchen and I want you to go up to it. And when you sit on it, I want you to think about it having only one large support underneath it.

Starting point is 00:15:10 That's the constant grind that's permeating your life. What do you think is going to happen when that constant grind catches up with you? It's going to make you topple over. He goes, now I want you to think about that stool again. But this time, it has five or six supports underneath it. And these can be anything that you want them to be. that stool again. But this time, it has five or six supports underneath it. And these can be anything that you want them to be. I chose to make them my physical health, mental health, emotional health, spiritual health, career health, and relationship health. But they're the things that you want to make a priority in your life. And the important thing is that you had to work on all of those to be balanced in life. So I think you and I are saying

Starting point is 00:15:44 the same thing. And it's such an important message for the audience to be balanced in life. So I think you and I are saying the same thing, and it's such an important message for the audience to be taking away from today's discussion. Oh my gosh. What I have concluded that the, when I get asked like sometimes at the end of a speech with some Q and A or whatever, the most common question I get is,

Starting point is 00:16:00 what's the one thing you didn't share that's most important? And I've concluded in most cases, if it hadn't come up before, I will say the number one thing you didn't share that's most important. And I've concluded in most cases, if it hadn't come up before, I will say the number one thing you can do for your business to improve your business radically is take care of your health. The physical component you just talked about that, that is such a foundational necessity. And for many entrepreneurs, it's the first to go. I work with men and women and what men will often do is hustle and grind. They'll first sacrifice time with family. Secondarily, they'll sacrifice time with their health. Women seem to be the reverse of that.

Starting point is 00:16:30 They'll sacrifice their health. They'll sacrifice their sleep. Never sacrifice the family as a general rule, but health for both men and women. Get sacrificed for the betterment of the business. But then you don't have your health. You don't have your energy. You can't bring the contribution that you could. So it starts diminishing. You're running on an empty tank. It's the worst thing to do. And it's so hard to reverse that to start prioritizing our health

Starting point is 00:16:54 when we feel desperate to make a successful business, go in business. Yeah, and that leads so many people to be apathetic. And that's why I like saying being apathetic is a choice. And being intentional is also a choice. And one is going to lead you into the valley of despair and the other to the tsunami of greatness. So pick wisely. Pick one. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:17:16 It's definitely a long journey. It's a journey, right? For all of us. So Mike, now we're going to start going into your brand new book, All In. Congratulations on its release. Thanks, John. I wanted to talk to you a little bit about entrepreneurship, since it's been such a big part of your life. And something I've been looking at is the Kaufman Foundation and the Brookings Institute's reports, as well as US Census reports from the Small Business Administration. And what they're all showing me is that we have a major problem.

Starting point is 00:17:45 We are approaching decades and decades of entrepreneur decline. And the crazy thing is the reason that millennials and Gen Z, college graduates and high skilled workers aren't starting companies. It's because they're taking the path to starting a well paid job, instead of the risk of becoming an entrepreneur. And I believe in this era that we're walking into with automation, AI, robotics, everything else that's coming with the digital age, we're going to be displacing so many people and we need

Starting point is 00:18:13 more entrepreneurs now more than ever. How can we do our part to encourage these generations that are coming up to put more effort into the idea of becoming an entrepreneur? Yeah. I think just to add to the challenges, and I do have an idea. The one of the challenges too is we see the art of the sale more and more. And I think info marketing, I shouldn't put a bad label on it because I think I'm the ultimate info marketer. The original info product is a book, right?

Starting point is 00:18:43 I'm selling information. But I think info marketing is all about building the hype and then the delivery behind some of these things is pretty weak. At the end of the day, what makes a business exceptional is the art of not the sale, but the art of the delivery. When you deliver a remarkable product, deliver a remarkable service, you build a reputation for excellence and that becomes its own sales mechanism. It's a harder path. It's much easier to try to persuade someone, convince someone to give you a little money as opposed to care for them so well that they can't wait to give you money. That takes longer.

Starting point is 00:19:16 I think entrepreneurship, what we don't see as entrepreneurs is it's not at first and foremost a pathway to get rich. What it is predominantly, I think, entrepreneurship is an expression of yourself. First, it starts off with an exploration of yourself, then an expression of yourself. And once you get to that stage, then it can be a source of tremendous income

Starting point is 00:19:39 and tremendous impact. I think the greatest thing I do that I experience now is, I'm doing what I love to do. I wake up every day excited that, my gosh, I'm living such a privileged life. I have colleagues through my businesses. I have 20 folks who work directly with me and collectively for them businesses I'm now involved in, invested in, a few hundred employees. It's amazing to see what I have the privilege to give people a career opportunity that supports

Starting point is 00:20:04 them not just financially, but also emotionally and relationally. So it's the greatest privilege. I wish the next generation of entrepreneurs realized that this is the ultimate opportunity for fulfillment. That's what I think entrepreneurship is, but we don't see that. We see it as, can you make more money here

Starting point is 00:20:19 or can you make more money there? And the quick money is in getting a job that pays a big salary and the low money and the quick money is in getting a job that pays a big salary, and the low money and the risky money is in entrepreneurship. And it takes time to get to a point where you have stability and good income. But gosh, if people just knew it's the ultimate fulfillment, it's where you find satisfaction. Because money without fulfillment just burns away. Money complementing fulfillment is meaning and purpose and direction. Yes. I think that's such an important message for people to take away. You probably have

Starting point is 00:20:50 heard of Jim McKelvie, the founder of Square. Yeah, sure. Another name, man. I had a conversation with him, and I think finding fulfillment, as you were saying, is being in tune with our inner self, which so few of us are doing today because we're distracted by everything that's around us. But once you tune into that, you start understanding what your unique gifts are. And what comes out of that is you start to understand the problem that you were put on earth that only you can solve. And to me, that's at the heart of what it is to be an entrepreneur. It's finding that problem that is so massive that you were put on earth to solve it with your unique skills.

Starting point is 00:21:25 And when you do that, your life, as you were talking about, you're not going to be worried about the paycheck. You're going to be enjoying the ride and just the fulfillment that comes with it. And to your point, if you stick with it, you're going to have such a better life than the one that you're pursuing now. And it's so hard for people to see that long-term perspective. Yeah. Yes. In the beginning, what's your favorite saying? I have my own little saying is we teach what we need or we provide what we need inside. I like my little rhymes. But at the end of the day, for at least for me, every book I'm writing is really trying to fix something for myself or to serve myself. Every exceptional product out there, I remember Zappos, was their tagline delivering happiness. Tony Shea was in search of happiness for himself.

Starting point is 00:22:12 And sadly, if you know his story, it didn't end that way. But so interesting, we'll see usually the most successful companies, what is putting outward is what the leader or the leadership or the owner needs inwardly. And when we are congruent with that, when we understand that, then it becomes a joyous expression. So everything that I'm working on, like, oh, gosh, this is exactly what I need. And I'm fulfilling this. And that also means there are other people out there you can serve because they may not

Starting point is 00:22:38 have the entire set of needs you do, but they have a portion of it. And because you're serving so deeply for yourself, you can serve them deeply in that portion of their life. So whatever an entrepreneur does, when they're trying to satisfy an internal need and see that they're really teaching themselves, they're really caring for themselves, they're actually going to care for others in the greatest way possible. Oh, thank you for sharing that. And something I don't think a lot of my listeners know about is that I did possibly the last interview with Tony before he died. I think it was just three days before. And during that time, I was the editor in chief of a publication called Bold Business.

Starting point is 00:23:13 And I had created something called the Bold Leader Spotlight. And as I was interviewing Tony, I got to talk to him about what it meant to be considered a bold leader. And I was just blown away with how humble he was and what a beautiful soul he was. I never had the opportunity to meet him and only heard stories about him. And I heard he was an extraordinary human going through a very difficult journey. And I think if I can parlay that into the folks listening in is the journey of entrepreneurship as much as it's of service, I shared it. It's really an exploration and reflection back upon yourself. The product or service we deliver isn't necessarily always a direct correlation though. Just one example I use is like toilet paper. If you are a toilet paper manufacturer,

Starting point is 00:23:55 you may not have a passion about toilet paper, but there may be an internal calling for environmental responsibility. Or maybe you grew up where you were poor, and maybe there's a way to deliver your product economically, so it can serve a poorer community. But regardless of the vehicle we're driving, selling toilet paper, writing books, whatever it is, sometimes my books are used to toilet paper, regardless of what it is,

Starting point is 00:24:23 you can take that vehicle down the path that allows you to explore and satisfy the needs you have inside. Absolutely, and thank you so much for sharing that. So many gems for the audience to take into account and apply in their own life. And for those of you who might not be able to see it, Mike has a sign that says, going all in.

Starting point is 00:24:42 And in case you can't see it, behind him Mike has something that says, let's go all in. And I remember when I first heard this slogan, I was a midshipman at the Naval Academy and my cross-country coach would say to me, you're either all in or you're all out. And I think that's a great way to open up this discussion about what it means to be all in. It means to bring your entirety of your contribution to the greater service of the collective goal.

Starting point is 00:25:07 Should there be a collective goal set? Here's the irony, John. I recently heard this and it's resonating with me. In the last few months, someone said it's easier to go 100% than it is 95% because it makes choice very clear. For example, say I want to change my diet and I want to reduce sugar intake. It's easier to say I'm not going to have any desserts 100% all in on that or all out, as opposed to break it once a month. Because that leaves this cloudiness of, oh, can I do this month? And if I do it on a Friday, but it's the end of the month, and I do it the next day on a Saturday, I have some more dessert, because there's two different months, does that count?

Starting point is 00:25:48 There's cloudiness when there's 100%, it's oh, it's very clear. No, I'm not, I've committed not to having dessert, I'm not gonna have dessert. And all in team has that clarity. And I think it starts with the leader. It's like, this is what our win is. It's clearly defined.

Starting point is 00:26:05 Win may not necessarily be beating the other team. It may be simply competing till the very end, regardless of your ranking or positioning against others. It's the best representation yourself. So an all-in team has clarity on what the goal is for the collective team and has a reason to contribute 100% of themselves. And the leader speaks that too.

Starting point is 00:26:32 The individual is as important as the team and the team is as important as the individual. There's that collective. I can't wait to explore this. And I'm going to just use a story from one of my past experiences that we can explore during our conversation. When I was hired at Lowe's home improvement, I was brought in to clean up the information security and operations teams. And Lowe's had just come through the worst hacking incident at that time in

Starting point is 00:26:55 retail history. And I remember during my first week, I sat down with the head of HR and it ends up becoming a completely different discussion than the one I thought I was going to have with her. And she said, John, we have just done an employee survey to understand the engagement rate across different departments. And out of 360,000 plus employees at Lowe's, including all the stores, all the supply chain facilities, all the corporate functions, you have the second lowest scoring group in the entire company. And I was like, you couldn't have shared that with me while you were interviewing me.

Starting point is 00:27:25 So I did what many leaders do. I went out and I started talking to my peers and to different customers of the group. And what came back was they would all say, this group is the worst. They can't do anything right. They're not motivated. They're not inspired. They're just putting in time. And after that, I started meeting with every single employee that I possibly could in

Starting point is 00:27:44 the organization. I remember going in at two o'clock in the morning just so I could catch people who were on the late shifts. And ultimately, what I learned is that they didn't understand how the jobs that they were doing mattered to the corporate strategy, to serving our customers, and most importantly, to the customers themselves. And I think, unfortunately, that there are a lot of people who feel that way. In fact, Gallup did a poll in 2022 that revealed that over 60% of people feel emotionally detached at work, with almost 20% of them feeling miserable. In your view, what are the causes of this detachment? That's such a powerful story. It reminds me of David Marquette's book. He was with the Naval Academy too, and he wrote the famous book, Turn This Ship Around.

Starting point is 00:28:26 And what I think the moral is to your story, we experienced that Lo's, his story, and what my research is, is all the same, that a leader can transform a team. And it's not that the people need to be transformed, they simply need to be recognized and given direction. In David Marquette's book, it's the lowest performing submarine in the entire naval force. They're all sea players, everyone on that chip. And they replaced only one person.

Starting point is 00:28:55 David Marquette became the captain. And within a year, they became the top performing ship in the entire naval fleet because of leader. And what's the leader does, the question, of course, first of all, embrace the people as individuals. There is a concept I write about called psychological ownership. And I think once people understand this, it will transform how you manage your team, and it engages your employees at the highest level. There's two types of ownership. There's what's called legal ownership and psychological ownership. But the only time someone feels like they own something is only when they have psychological ownership regardless of legal ownership.

Starting point is 00:29:30 So the story here is I own stock in Ford and I remember driving down the road past the Ford factory and I did not look at the factory and say, wow, I own part of that. Few of those bricks in that building are mine. I simply said, oh, where's my dividend? Legal ownership does not bring about that emotional state of owning, but it does bring about a sense of obligation.

Starting point is 00:29:49 I do legally own that. Where's my money? Psychological ownership is where we feel that we're part of it. It's actually coherent or connected to our identity. And there's three elements that bring around psychological ownership. One is a sense of control. I can give it direction. It's under my authority.

Starting point is 00:30:09 The second is intimate knowledge. The more detail I know about it, the more intimate I am with all the elements, the more I feel as part of me, and the last part is the ability to personalize, the more I can give it my own sense. So I actually have a Ford pickup truck, a small one, and my Ford pickup truck, I small one. And my pickup truck, I actually, interestingly, don't legally own.

Starting point is 00:30:29 The bank owns it. I'm making my installments on it, but I have psychological ownership. So I feel it's mine. And what is it? I've told control over it. I decide when I drive it. I decide where I park it. I put it where I want.

Starting point is 00:30:42 That's control. The second thing is personalization. I program the radio stations. I put the bumper sticker on the back. But that gives me a sense that's more mine. The last thing is a bit of knowledge. I know every little button and do Hickey and little setting on it.

Starting point is 00:30:55 Therefore, the more I know about it, the more I feel possessive of it. What Marquette did, I bet you what you did, either with a cognitive realization, you're doing psychological ownership or just intuitive approach. I suspect you, I know David Marquette, and I've seen other people do this too, to great effect. And we're doing it with our own teams too here is you give your people the ability to get more understanding of the work that they're doing. Why are they doing this? What exactly does do? What is the bigger impact it has? The ability to have some control. Where are you gonna direct this?

Starting point is 00:31:27 How can you improve the work you do? How can you make it more fun for yourself? But how can I have a bigger impact in the company? And the ability to personalize. And when we do that, people who are quote unquote C players and the worst performing teams sometimes become the absolute best. Yeah, I have such a great parallel story.

Starting point is 00:31:44 I have to tell you, when I was in Ensign, the lowest level of naval officers, I get sent out on my first deployment, and it's on a destroyer called the CompTIGRAP. And she ends up coming out into the Mediterranean late, because she was the first Navy vessel in over 100 years that outside of being in wartime had been sabotaged. So I get on the ship and I've never been in any organization before or after where the morale was so low. He barely even saw the commanding

Starting point is 00:32:11 officer. He knew he was losing his job and all he did was sit in a state room all day in sulk. And while I was there, not only did we lose him, we lost the executive officer and the engineering officer as well because the petty officer involved in the sabotage has been part of the engineering department. And then fast forward, I get on my next ship, which is the USS Kidd. Both of them are destroyers. And I remember meeting our commanding officer and he was just all in. You could feel his passion and you could feel the passion throughout the ship. And he basically treated you that if you had a specialty, you were numero uno in his mind. He's going to put you in charge, trust your judgment, etc. And I was on the ship for

Starting point is 00:32:49 about two and a half months. And I remember one day, I was standing in the command and control center, and there were two OSA gunships who out of nowhere decided to open up their Skud missile doors, pointing their missiles right at us. And we go into general quarters, and then he looks at me and he says, John, what do you think I should do? Should I take them out or do you think this is purely posturing on their part? And I happen to be the intelligence officer on board, and I had the best perspective from everything that I had been studying on what I thought the threat posture was. And I told him that I think that he's just posturing. And so we ended up doing nothing. And fortunately, that's what it turned out to be.

Starting point is 00:33:27 To be honest, it showed me how much confidence a senior officer could have in you and what it meant to be guided by a leader who actually believed in you compared to the opposite that I had previously been encountered with. How do you think a leader's passion and authenticity play a role in their success? Yeah, exactly that. I'm gonna go back to David Marquette's book because it resonates with me and we can talk about it in some private institutions too.

Starting point is 00:33:53 But in David Marquette's book, one of the things he changed as the commander of the ship was instead of people asking permission, may I increase throttle by 10% permission granted, became I intend to increase throttle by 10% proved. What's interesting is in that subtle language change, people are coming with authority and control. And so they feel more sense control. It's not that they have to sulk or bow down to an authority. They're simply now becoming a collaborative. And that's what sounded like in your situation too,

Starting point is 00:34:25 as a collaborative and he allowed you to exert authority and control over where your domain of knowledge is and collaborate with you, taking your ideas. That's what great leaders do. So in private organizations, the danger is micromanagement. And it still exists today. Most businesses, specifically small businesses,

Starting point is 00:34:48 are restricted in their growth specifically because of the leader of that organization. The vast majority, I think, is over 97, maybe 98% of businesses will never have more than three full-time employees plus the owner. And the reason is because the owner is making all the decisions and controlling everything. There's a Hindu goddess named K owner. And the reason is, because the owner is making all the decisions and controlling everything. There's a Hindu goddess named Kali. And this Hindu goddess is a figure, it's a female's head with six arms. You've probably seen it before. And that's what we become as a business.

Starting point is 00:35:16 We become one mind, the owner that says, do this, do that, do this, and the typewriter goes back, do this, do that, and keeps repeating. Their work schedule, I tell them, I'm like, if you're doing that, you have a nine to five work schedule. And I'm not saying nine in the morning to five o'clock at night. I'm saying, you only work at nine o'clock at night till five in the morning. That's the nine to five, because during the rest of the day, you're inserting yourself in all the decision making, you're a micromanager. And that diminishes trust, any form of trust. Basically, people are being programmed, if you will,

Starting point is 00:35:48 through repetition that I don't trust you to make any decisions, just do what my instruction said is and wait for the next instruction. And that inherently limits the growth and the health of any organization. So what we need to do as leaders is give people control and authority. Not 100%, this is something that becomes collaborative leaders is give people control and authority. Not 100%.

Starting point is 00:36:05 This is something that becomes collaborative. But give people control authority. Give people the ability to personalize things. Again, not 100%, not a free reign, but give them the ability to give it their own flavor. Give them the ability to gain intimate knowledge. The reason we don't want to just abandon things, that's called abdication. So micromanagement is dangerous, but also called abdication. So micromanagement is dangerous, but also is abdication. Abdication is like, it's yours, just run with it. And then there's no accountability.

Starting point is 00:36:30 In abdication, people start building fiefdoms, their own kind of territory, and they block other people out. So what we want to do is a little bit of the Goldilocks, we want to get that oatmeal just right or whatever she was eating, the right temperature. We don't, we shouldn't micromanage, we shouldn't abdicate, but what we should do is agree to outcomes and observe the outcomes. Where do you intend in your role in this company and this organization, where do you intend to take us?

Starting point is 00:36:54 What do you intend to achieve for yourself? What's your vision for yourself? And then keep pointing back to the outcome and allow people to navigate the path there on their own accord, always stick with that outcome. That's what a great leader does. Yeah, I love it. And I have a chapter in my upcoming book that I call The Gardner Leader. And what I advocate for is that we need leaders who are eyes on, but hands off.

Starting point is 00:37:17 Yeah, oh, I love that. And one of the people I interviewed about this concept was General Stammer-Cristall, who could be a four star like he was in Afghanistan leading a campaign. But if he's got a strategic target, he can't be micromanaging a special forces unit that's operating on the ground or at sea. He's got to realize that he's given them enough training, enough knowledge, and overall the strategic knowledge of what he wants accomplished on that mission. But he's got no idea what's happening on the ground. And he needs to trust that his soldiers are going to perform the best that they possibly can in alignment with their values, doing the right thing in what they've been taught.

Starting point is 00:37:53 And I think that's exactly what you said. And it's something that so many leaders need to be doing with their teams. We also need to give people a safe environment. And as interesting as researching out for all in, I was looking into what represents safety. And I looked at Maslow's hard-to-give needs. There's multiple levels, all the way from the most physiological needs like water, food, shelter, physical safety, up to relational safety, communication, emotional safety, where we feel comfortable just being ourselves. What's interesting is even in today's workforce, a professional environment, you think physical safety is not a concern.

Starting point is 00:38:30 Everyone's got a building. My own office, we ran a survey here, anonymous, and collectively we have about 20 folks and I asked, do you ever feel physically unsafe? Is there anything that we can do to improve your sense of safety? And multiple people said, yeah, the dark alleyway outside the back of our building, there's a way out of our building, it goes down an alley and it's pitch black at nighttime, but it's the shortest way to get to the parking lot. And so what I learned is starting around two or three o'clock in the afternoon, my colleagues, my team here is worrying about getting in their car around five or six

Starting point is 00:39:03 o'clock because the sun sets in the wintertime pretty early here. My gosh, I'm going to be walking around in the pitch black. So all we did is we installed string lights. And with these string lights, now it's always illuminated. There's also steps back there. So it's safer for that. But now my team is not worrying about walking down a dark alley. It's an illuminated space.

Starting point is 00:39:21 And I didn't realize it, but two hours to three hours a day, there's always worry, but that's not been eliminated. Great leaders are always looking to make sure their team feels safe in all fashions. That's just physical safety. There's relational safety. Can I be my authentic self here without repercussions? So what great leader will do is be their authentic self

Starting point is 00:39:43 and share some of the warts and ugliness of their own life's experience To invite other people to feel comfortable expressing the same thing and when people do the leader applauds that and recognizes that differentiation The last thing to put a little bowtie on this is I was studying aware of the strongest teams And is there any commonality and the one thing that kept coming back was the more diverse the team, different backgrounds, different experiences, different races, different gender, the more variability, the stronger the team came. Because there wasn't that echo chamber of,

Starting point is 00:40:15 we all believe the same thing, we all these different perspectives came, and then this common bond came about from diversity because of different perspectives, greater understanding, greater empathy, but also greater support for each other. Yeah, I love that. And I wanna ask you another question,

Starting point is 00:40:30 and this one is along the lines of, how do we encourage employees to aspire to be more than what they're doing at work? Because Gartner Research from 2022 had just the startling statistic that a significant number of employees, something like 82%, value is being seen beyond their work roles. However, only 45% of them felt that their organization

Starting point is 00:40:51 views them that way. How can businesses better acknowledge and support individuality and the personal aspirations of their employees? Yeah, such a great question. And I'll share a little personal story is embarrassing, but it opened my eyes to this. My second business was in forensic investigations, computer forensics specifically. And we were doing large corporate cases, intellectual property theft and so forth. Well, on third year in business, I ran the numbers in my office and I said, my gosh, we can have a $10 million a year. Up to that point, I never had a business that surpassed $10 million in revenue. So I'm like, this is it. I called my team

Starting point is 00:41:27 together. We were brick and mortar at the time. We had 30 employees. I had a big whiteboard. I put $10 million on there and then put a big sticky note in front of it. Had I the tire playing in the background, call the team in, I'm like, this is the year we're going to do. We'll sign off $10 million in in revenue. It was like a deflating balloon. Like no one cared. And I was like, hold on, did I not play the music loud enough? This is amazing. Mike trusted personal assistant.

Starting point is 00:41:54 And she was this extraordinary colleague, her name was Patty, came to me and said, Mike, if we achieve $10 million in revenue, you get the bigger house, you get the new car, but why should we care? And it was the first time I had a realization that the vision for an organization is the vision of the leadership. It's our dream, our expectation we put out for ourselves, but it doesn't mean it's the

Starting point is 00:42:16 dream for our individuals. My job from that day forward was to learn the vision everyone had for themselves. And one person wanted to buy a new house for the first time. Another person wanted to learn to play the saxophone or something. Another person wanted to learn a new language. Once they started learning and caring about what people wanted individually,

Starting point is 00:42:36 I realized my job was to help a code block and tackle or at least keep that dream in front of them. That their job was in part a means to the end of achieving that first house of theirs or buying that saxophone. But that was my job. And once I started putting their individual visions in front of them and that became a regular dialogue, how are you doing on that progress? Is there anything I can do, some introductions I can make?

Starting point is 00:43:01 Then they started caring about the corporate dream because that's the dream of mine. They started to reciprocate. One little caveat here I learned is my job is not to provide that dream, meaning I don't gift that new house, even if I could, I shouldn't, and I don't gift them the saxophone and so forth. And the reason is a gift doesn't have value. It's achieving an outcome without the effort. And it's actually in the effort where we feel pride, confidence in ourselves and growth happens. Last night, very first recording I was watching the college football championship, Michigan was playing Washington. Could you imagine they show up to the final game and the college football championship and the referee say, Hey, why even play the games? People are

Starting point is 00:43:44 going to get hurt here. We're just going to grant it to Washington. You just win or Michigan. We're just going to give it to you. You guys are the winners. No game. How we feel. It would be the biggest let down for all the fans. It would be the biggest let down for the players, but we haven't proven it. It's in the journey, which is painful times when that accomplishment becomes significant. It becomes the road marker. So, again, my job is not to provide the vision. It is simply to keep them accountable to their vision. And when I keep them accountable to their own vision, and maybe provide some blocking tackling, they're going to keep me accountable to our vision and block and tackle for me. Oh, I wish we had so much more time to go through all the principles in this book,

Starting point is 00:44:22 because it is truly amazing. But for the listener, some of the reasons that you want to pick up this book is to understand the principle of psychological ownership that Mike goes through. He talks about safety and team fit of reversatility, how ability and desire factor into everything that you end up doing at work to foster ownership, which we've talked a little bit about, intentional alignment among team members, building community in remote environments, and so much more. Mike, what is the best place that people can go to if they want to learn more about you? The best place is my website. I do have a shortcut to get there. My last name, McCallow, it's as hard to pronounce as impossible to spell. So there's a shortcut. It's my nickname

Starting point is 00:45:01 from grade school, which was Mike Motorbike. It's the only PG-rated nickname I've ever had, but you can go to mikemotorbikeasinthemotorcycle.com. All in, my new book is there and you get free chapters from it. All my books are there. I also used to write for the Wall Street Journal and you can get all those articles for free. It's all for small business and for leaders.

Starting point is 00:45:21 Mikemotorbike.com. Mike, it was such an honor to have you on today's show. And congratulations again on the launch of this fantastic book, All In. Thanks, brother. And congratulations on your upcoming book. Thanks for having me, John. I thoroughly enjoyed that interview with Mike Mike Hallowitz, and I wanted to thank Mike and Portfolio for the honor of having him appear on today's show to discuss this book All In. Links to All Things Mike will be in the show notes. Please use our website links if you purchase. Any of the books from the guests

Starting point is 00:45:47 that we feature here on the show, all proceeds go to supporting the show. Videos are on YouTube at both our main channel at John R. Miles and our clips channel at Passionstruck Clips. Check them out and please subscribe. Advertiser deals and discount codes are in one convenient place at passionstruck.com slash deals.

Starting point is 00:46:02 You can find me on all the social platforms at John R. Miles. You can sign up for our weekly work-related newsletter on LinkedIn, or if you wanna be part of the Passionstruck Challenge, you can sign up for our personal development newsletter on passionstruck.com. You're about to hear a preview of the Passionstruck podcast interview

Starting point is 00:46:18 that I did with Dr. Jed Brewer, who comes back to the show to discuss his brand new book, The Hunger Habit, which is based on his deeply researched plan to help understand what's going on in our brains so that we can heal the guilt and frustration that we experience around eating. With anxiety, we learn to worry. But with eating, this is where comfort food comes in. This is where the term stress eating comes in. If we eat some food, our brain says, hey, that tasted pretty good. Why don't you eat when you're stressed?

Starting point is 00:46:46 And so we start to learn these habits of eating, not when we're hungry, but when we're stressed, when we're bored, when we're angry, or just simply when we see food. Because it's like, oh, that looks good. Boom. We often lose the ability to really check in with ourselves to ask, am I actually hungry? That's what habit is all about is automatic behavior. The joke is about this. I'm on a seafood diet, I see food and I eat it, that type of thing. Well, that's our survival brain that's been co-opted in modern times. The fee for this show is that you share it with family or friends when

Starting point is 00:47:20 you find something useful or interesting. If you know someone who wants to learn how to become all in at work, then definitely share the show with them. The greatest compliment that you can give us is to share the show with those that you love and care about. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so that you can live what you listen.

Starting point is 00:47:34 Until next time, go out there and become passion struck. you

Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Mike Michalowicz on Why Great Leaders Build Invincible Teams EP 406

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