Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Nausheen Chen on How to Embrace Your Unique Voice | EP 530

Starting point is 00:00:00 Coming up next on Passion Struck. I absolutely agree. Your role is one way of defining what you do, but it may not always be very clear. So for me, it always comes down to who's asking you the question and what context and who's going to be at the receiving end. But making sure that you're actually talking about what you actually accomplish, what are the outcomes of the work that you do. So for example, I help people become the best speakers they can be. That probably means more to someone versus me saying I'm a public speaking coach. Welcome to Passion Struck. Hi, I'm your host, John R. Miles. And on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips,

Starting point is 00:00:40 and guidance of the world's most inspiring people and turned their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you. Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself. If you're new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays. We have long-form interviews the rest of the week with guests ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries, and athletes. Now, let's go out there and become Passion Struck. Hey Passion Struck fam, welcome to episode 530 of the Passion Struck podcast. I wanna start by sending a huge thank you to each of you who show up week after week committed to your growth purpose

Starting point is 00:01:28 and living a life filled with intention. You are the heart of this community and it's your dedication that makes the Passion Struck movement so impactful. If you're new here, welcome. You've just joined a community that's all about transformation, purpose, and tapping into your fullest potential.

Starting point is 00:01:44 We're thrilled to have you on this journey with us. And for those of you who want to dive even deeper, or want to introduce this to a friend or a family member, remember to check out our episode Starter Packs. With over 530 episodes now, it can be overwhelming to know where to begin. So we've curated playlists for you on Spotify or at passionstruck.com slash starter packs. Before we get into today's episode, I have some incredibly exciting news to share. Passionstruck recently took home a major award at the 2024 Davie Awards, where we won the gold medal in the social good category for our tribute to the legacy of Emile Brunot. It's a huge honor to be recognized in such a meaningful way, and I'm deeply grateful to all of you for supporting these stories that bring light to important issues.

Starting point is 00:02:27 And on the book front, my book Passionstruck has been recognized in multiple categories. We took first place in the Bookfest Book Awards for nonfiction, self-help transformation, and also in the category of young adult self-help, and were also winners in the 21st Annual Best Book Awards by the American Book Fest, honored in three categories, Business Motivational, General Nonfiction, and Young Adult Nonfiction. I am especially excited to see the book resonating with young adults, inspiring the next generation to live with intention and embrace their purpose. This week, I decided to do two episodes on public speaking,

Starting point is 00:03:03 and I wanted to give a quick shout out to the earlier episode that I did on Tuesday with the one and only Bo Eason, where we explored the art of storytelling, declaring your purpose and how to build trust for your unique personal narrative. If you haven't caught that episode yet, it's one you won't want to miss. And don't forget, if you're interested in even more transformative insights and tools, sign up for my Live Intentionally newsletter at PassionStruck.

Starting point is 00:03:25 Every week, I send out exclusive content and practical challenges designed to help you live more intentionally. And for all of our visual learners out there, you can watch clips and full episodes on our YouTube channels at John or Miles and PassionStruck clips. Now let's talk about today's episode

Starting point is 00:03:42 with guest, Naixin Chen, because this conversation is one you don't want to miss. Naxin is a powerhouse in the world of public speaking coaching, helping entrepreneurs and executives alike master the art of impactful communication. Whether it's on stage or in front of the camera,

Starting point is 00:03:57 but her journey is anything but conventional. From being the number one ranked manager at Crocter and Gamble, to becoming award-winning filmmaker performing improv in New York City, Nasheen has worn many hats throughout her career. In 2022, she made a pivotal decision to follow her passion fully, leaving behind her multiple six-figure filmmaking startup to pursue her true calling as a public speaking coach. Today, we're diving into her inspiring journey of reinvention. We'll uncover the power of embracing your authentic voice and how Nashiin's unique out-and-out framework can help anyone become a more compelling, confident speaker. Get ready for a transformative conversation with someone who truly understands the balance

Starting point is 00:04:37 between performance and authenticity. Let's dive into it with Nashiin Chen. Thank you for choosing PassionStruck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life. Now, let that journey begin. I am so thrilled today to have Nasheen Chen on Passion Struck. Welcome, Nasheen. Thank you so much for having me here, John. I was looking forward to this conversation for the last two weeks, so really excited that we're getting started. Well, I appreciate very much that you're a fan of the podcast and I have to ask, how did you first find out about it?

Starting point is 00:05:13 I just stumbled upon it. I was looking at all the podcasts that people I knew had been on and I was looking at folks that I was connected with like Jason Pfeiffer and Terry Rice and others that were going on all these podcasts and your podcast was one of the ones that kept coming up with all these fantastic folks that you've talked to so I had a little bit of FOMO. I was like I need to reach out to John and I would love to talk to him. Thank you for sharing that. I always love to find how people find the show, especially when they're from different countries like you are. Because half our audience comes to the United States, but I'm happy to say

Starting point is 00:05:54 that we've now hit a number one alternative health podcast in over 25 countries. So it's great to see the recognitions and the popularity of the show growing globally. That's awesome. I always like to start these episodes out with some fun questions. And I'm going to start with this one with you. What's the kindest thing a stranger has ever done for you? I actually really believe in the kindness of strangers and I have actually been on the

Starting point is 00:06:24 receiving end of a kindness of strangers. And I have actually been on the receiving end of a lot of kindness. The most recent one I can think of is a silly little thing, but it really touched me. I was at a salon getting my hair done. It's something that happens very frequently because I have purple hair, for those of you who can't see me.

Starting point is 00:06:39 So I was at the salon, my phone was dead, and I had to take a very important call. So I of course didn't have my charger and I'm just looking around like a headless chicken trying to find my charger and there's nothing there. It wasn't there. So this other client at the same place lent me his power bank and he was basically done and he and I said, Oh, I had put it in and it wasn't charging. So he said, I'm just going to go for a coffee. You can keep this power bank and I'm going to come back in a little bit

Starting point is 00:07:11 and then I can take it back from you. And he had no reason to do that. He didn't know me, but just that little act of kindness, someone willing to give me something of theirs and go out of their way to help a stranger was very touching. I didn't know what to say. I just kept saying thank you over and he saved my day. Thank you so much for sharing that. Nashi, you had a really fascinating career journey. You've been a Fortune 50 manager, an award-winning filmmaker, PR director, improv performer. I do improv myself, so that's maybe a question we can get to later on.

Starting point is 00:07:47 Looking back, did you feel connected to any of these roles or did you always feel inside that there was something missing? Always, I was always the person who looked at things as experiments. I've always been an experimenter all my life. So I always would ask myself, how deep does this rabbit hole go? So that's why you see all these different

Starting point is 00:08:12 trajectories and I think of it as meandering. I wandered around a lot, I explored a lot before I sat down when I was approaching my 40s and asked myself, well, what is it that you really wanna do? And believe it or not, I actually went through an Ikegai exercise at the time because I was very lost. I was 38 and had a career pivot already and still didn't feel like that was my calling in life. And that's when I decided to combine

Starting point is 00:08:43 all these various experiences that I'd had from the improv world, from the film world, but also from the public speaking world, because I had been speaking on stages and on camera for 15 years for fun, not really as a source of living. So I combined all of those things and then realized that public speaking was the one thing that was tying all these diverse experiences together.

Starting point is 00:09:07 And I just want to go back to that for a second and explore this in a couple more questions. I had a similar journey to you, although our journeys were very different. I was doing what I call a portfolio career where I was going from one role to the next, moving up the corporate ladder of what they determine as success. And even though I was making more money, had better titles, had nicer houses to live in, similar to you, I just felt like something was missing. But oftentimes it's hard to pin what that missing piece is. Is that kind of how you felt as well? Or did you know more precisely what it was? No, I had no idea. I was a filmmaker at the time. I was directing commercials for these

Starting point is 00:10:01 big brands in China. And on the outside, I was fairly successful. I was getting big projects. People were getting to know me. I had been doing it for about seven years. And it was a part of my identity. I would say, hi, I'm Naoxin. I'm a filmmaker. It just came out like that.

Starting point is 00:10:20 But I never felt connected to it. I never felt like I was a filmmaker. I felt like an imposter. Even though I was formally trained in filmmaking and I had the skillset supposedly, but I always felt like I was playing a role and not really doing something that connected with me on a deeper level.

Starting point is 00:10:41 So I had no idea. It was actually a question that my husband asked me that got me started on this path of coaching people to be better speakers. Because he said, Narsheen, you have been speaking on stages for as long as I've known you, and you do it and you love it and you're good at it. So why aren't you looking at it as something that you can build a living off of? Why have you just ruled it out and why are you doing it as just a hobby for life? So that really made me think and I had no idea that I could actually just take something that I absolutely love doing and make a career out of it and teach it to others and become an

Starting point is 00:11:27 entrepreneur in that way was all very new to me. So crossing that chasm can feel well, it can awake a lot of emotions in people, mostly the fear of crossing it, of giving up what to go seek the unknown, to explore a path that you don't know if it's gonna turn successful or not. What's one piece of advice you would give a viewer or listener today on if they are approaching that same precipice in life?

Starting point is 00:12:01 What's one step that they can do to make them maybe get over that anxiety or be willing to take that step? For me, it was learning to listen to myself I have always been a people pleaser. And I have always struggled with giving weight to my own opinions versus the opinions of others. I hold people that are dear to me in very high regard. So I often seek their advice. And so I would ask people, well, I don't really feel like I'm a filmmaker. And they would say, what are you talking about? It's great. You're doing well.

Starting point is 00:12:46 You're getting all these projects. You've been doing this for so long. You have expertise in this. You have a network. Why would you want to give it up? And that stopped me for the longest time from listening to my own voice. So I would say the biggest favor you can do yourself is to listen to your own voice, listen to whatever is telling you that this is not where you belong. You can do something else, something better. You can do so much more. You can achieve so much more. As I was doing some research on you, I found that in addition to improv, we had a couple other

Starting point is 00:13:29 things in common. When I was at the Naval Academy, the second half of my plebe year and my youngster year and a little bit of my junior year, I was a radio show host. And it was something that I love to do. It was very nerve wracking at first, knowing that your voice was going to be on the radio and that perhaps many of your friends who are out there, we're going to hear you talk. And I was worried about screwing up or leaving a music on when I shouldn't have all these things, but you were also a radio show host, if I have it right. How did that help you to realize this desire to use your voice and to make it a core of who you are?

Starting point is 00:14:18 First of all, love the deep research. I was a radio show host. That was actually my first job and I was still in college at the time. I actually didn't have any of those anxieties. Maybe I was very naive. It was the joy and the naivety of youth, perhaps at the age of 19 or 20. But for me, it was amazing. It was incredible. I, that was exactly what I wanted because from a very young age, I was made to, or encouraged to perform. I was always that annoying kid who would get up in front of the entire family

Starting point is 00:14:55 and recite poems and entertain. So I've been an entertainer for a long time. I just didn't have enough confidence in myself that I could actually do it on a bigger scale. So when I got the gig to do my own radio show, it was incredible. I loved the idea of connecting with so many people through what I'm saying. And I would get these calls from folks who would be following along the show and the kind of conversations that I would have with strangers was just, that was incredible.

Starting point is 00:15:29 So for me, it was the first time that I realized that by being in the spotlight, by allowing yourself to be visible, you can connect with so many people. It's incredible on such a deep level by just making that first step, taking that first step to say, all right, I'm gonna do this.

Starting point is 00:15:53 I'm gonna speak to a whole bunch of people. I'm gonna speak in public. Well, thank you for sharing that. And I also understand you also had a love for being in plays. And I wouldn't say I had a love for it. I would say I was terrified of it. But for whatever reason, I had the courage when I was a freshman in high school

Starting point is 00:16:17 to try out for Winthrop in the Music Man. And I remember just being petrified the first time I got on stage. But as I went through the performances, I ended up loving it. I never had a very good singing voice. But it was one of the first times I remember the power of my voice. Do you remember the first time in your life where you recognized the power of your voice? For sure. It was exactly during the time when I was growing up. first time in your life where you recognize the power of your voice? For sure. It was exactly during the time when I was growing up,

Starting point is 00:16:52 I was the youngest in the entire family. So no one paid any attention to me. My opinions didn't really matter. I was the background noise and a lot of conversations. And I didn't like that even as a young eight, nine, 10 year old, I remember feeling like, why don't I have a voice at the table? Why is no one listening to my opinions? Even though they're silly and uninformed, but I want to be heard.

Starting point is 00:17:15 But the very first time I stepped on a stage, everyone quietened down and they started listening to me. And that was the one thing I had been craving. I just wanted to be heard and I wanted to be seen. That's when I realized the power of my voice and the power of being on a stage and how much joy and reassurance it can bring to your own self. that can bring to your own self.

Starting point is 00:17:50 So moving forward, can you tell us about the first time you professionally spoke from a stage and how that experience went? Your first time out, would you give yourself a rating of an A or a lesser rating, Anne? Not at all. So I was very much one of those people who was very comfortable on a stage, very comfortable speaking to a lot of people, but that did not mean I was good. So one of the very first times that I was on a stage, quote-unquote stage formally was at my first job when I was at Procter & Gamble and

Starting point is 00:18:24 formally was at my first job when I was at Procter & Gamble. And on my second or third day at the job, my boss thought that she'll give me a fun challenge. She wanted me to present in front of our agency. This was my third day on the job as a fresh graduate. I have no idea what the presentation's about. It's just been given to me the day before, and I had to go in front of a whole bunch of people and present it.

Starting point is 00:18:47 So of course, with my confidence and the experience of having been on stage, I went ahead and I did the whole presentation. And afterwards, my boss comes up to me and says, "'Not bad, but what the heck was going on with your hands?' So that's, if you can see me, whoever's listening, that's what my hands are doing. They were completely out of control and I had no idea.

Starting point is 00:19:13 So that was one of the first times that I had a little bit of a reality check and realized that I need to not just be confident, but also acquire skills to be able to speak with confidence and authority, elegance, fluidity. So that's when I first started becoming an intentional speaker. I love that word intentional when you describe your speaking

Starting point is 00:19:41 because this whole podcast is all about being intentional. What does that word mean to you when you say it? So this is something I teach in all my classes and all to all my clients. The one thing that I want you to learn if I'm working with you, is how to go from being a speaker on autopilot to a speaker who is intentional. So for me, being an intentional speaker means taking a little bit of time to structure your thoughts, getting rid of filler words, being very mindful of who you're speaking with so that you don't use too much jargon, making sure that you're building in audience participation and engagement. All those things are intentional, they don't just happen. So for me, folks that work on their slides till the last possible minute and then just go and

Starting point is 00:20:38 present by reading off of their slides, that's speaking on autopilot. Or when you speak up in a meeting and you haven't taken time to structure your thoughts and you litter them with filler words and run on sentences and you ramble, your message gets lost, no one really even remembers what you said. That is unintentional speaking on autopilot, which most of us unfortunately do. So it's that transition from speaking the way that you've just learned to speak over the years to being very mindful and intentional about both your message and your delivery.

Starting point is 00:21:18 And from your experience, what's the most common obstacle that holds people back from truly speaking with confidence? Belief, self-belief. There's a lot of negative self-talk that goes on in our heads and that happens to all of us. Very often, our brain tells us things that aren't necessarily true. So, before you start a presentation, before you go on a podcast, your brain's telling you all these things about how you don't even belong there. You might mess up, the audience is going to judge you. Remember that other experience you had that was awful? That's going to happen again. So you're getting all these thoughts because you have believed in them and you've never challenged

Starting point is 00:22:06 them. So challenging those thoughts, that's the first thing that you can do to break that cycle of always feeling nervous or always feeling less than. And then of course, there's the fight, flight or freeze instinct that also kicks in the moment you start speaking. When you're in the spotlight, very often our lizard brain kicks in and tells us that being in the spotlight with people looking at you, so eyes of strangers looking at you, being out in the open without a weapon, without anyone behind you supporting you, looking out for you, it's all very bad. So we have these red flags, these dangerous signals that go off in our brain. So first, working through the self-belief

Starting point is 00:22:51 that leads up to that moment and then figuring out how do you deal with that, with those nerves settling in, that is what creates confidence in the moment. It takes a while to learn, but it's absolutely something that you can learn So on top of that one of the things that I think people struggle with is Being vulnerable with sharing aspects of their life and I think these aspects of their life are typically defining moments where they have the ability to tell a story where they reached a low spot, what they learned from it and how that, which is a good way. I've always thought of judging the right stories that you should be talking about. Meaning people don't want to hear necessarily paint Manning talking

Starting point is 00:23:52 about this two Superbowls. He won. They want to hear more about him as a football player, talking about the struggles along his journey and how we had to overcome them to eventually break through and win those championships, the injuries he had to overcome the self doubt, etc. How do you go about teaching the people that you help how to find those defining moments?

Starting point is 00:24:19 First is about adding in the human element. So I would say first, we actually take a step back and look at how can you be more human, more yourself when you speak, because that is the number one thing that I see people struggling with. They either become robotic and stiff because they're nervous, so they forget to be themselves. Or they feel that I'm in this professional world where stories and emotions don't necessarily have a place. I need to be professional, quote unquote, professional, whatever their perception of professional is or whatever they feel like other people's perception of professional

Starting point is 00:25:01 is. So for those reasons, I've seen using a two-step process works in this case, where first you take a Sunday and brainstorm all the different moments of your life, all the different moments of your life and then you start to think about the things that you've been through. And then you start to think about the things that you've been through. in this case, where first you take a Sunday and brainstorm all the different moments of your life, all the different stories you can think of

Starting point is 00:25:31 that have shaped you, that have shaped your journey so far. And once you have that brainstorm, and I'm sure you'll come up with at least five to seven to 10 stories from your life. Once you have that as raw material, then look at what are the lessons that you can draw from those stories? Where would you tell those stories? And then having a story bank of five to seven or ten stories that you can tell at different meetings and podcasts on webinars, making sure that you're organizing these stories

Starting point is 00:26:05 and making sure that you understand why you're telling them. What is the quote unquote, moral of the story? What is the business lesson? That is the work that I do with clients on the storytelling piece of it so that they have a story bank ready to go. So how about we put this in practice? Now, Shane, can you tell us a defining moment from your life and what you learned from it?

Starting point is 00:26:31 Sure. There was the first professional failure as an entrepreneur that was a huge and a harsh lesson for me. This was when I was a filmmaker, because that was the first time I was an entrepreneur. And we had gotten our first big project with a big global brand. It was a huge deal for a very small filming team. So my goal was to do everything right. And I involved the client from the first step. I involved them on the scripting, the storyboarding, the choice of the actors, the music. And throughout the process, the clients seemed to be very smooth. They kept saying yes to everything. So I thought I was doing a great job at communicating with them.

Starting point is 00:27:17 When we filmed everything and we showed the client the first cut, they were disappointed. They were deeply disappointed. And that was the first time that I was experiencing it as a service provider. They said that this is not up to par, not what we were thinking of. We had higher expectations than this. And at one point we abandoned that project

Starting point is 00:27:43 because they lost faith in our capabilities. That was a huge hit. So that made me reflect on what went wrong. I was leading the project. So there's gotta be something that I did that went wrong. And I realized that I was engaging in superficial communication throughout. Every time I would ask for their approval,

Starting point is 00:28:05 they would say yes without asking any questions, without me figuring out whether they understood what that phase of the project was. And I realized that the onus was on me to make sure that I ask the right questions, even if I'm not getting the questions aimed at me. So since that project, every single time I've worked with a client, I always make sure that I'm the one asking the questions so that I'm very clear on

Starting point is 00:28:35 whether things have been understood or not. And this works really well in any kind of a public speaking context, where if you're speaking, if you're doing a presentation, for example, it's on you to make sure the audience is with you. And very few presenters remember that. They think that all they have to do is deliver the message. That's only half the job. That was the hardest lesson that I've learned. Thank you for sharing that. And as I was doing background research, I heard you say on a different show that there's no distinction between authenticity and performance when done. Can you explain what you mean by that and how speakers often misunderstand the balance? balance. For sure. The first pushback I hear when I talk about speaking intentionally is, Noh Sheen, this is just the way I am. I want to be authentic. I don't want to lose my authenticity.

Starting point is 00:29:34 People have a misconception. They have an incorrect idea of what authenticity is. Because if you look at it, you perform different roles in life. At one point, I'm a wife. At one point, I'm a daughter-in-law. At another point, I'm a coach for a client. And I converse differently based on the role that I'm in. And that's not me being fake with any of those people. That's me showing a specific part of myself. And very often, if I'm on stage or if I'm performing, I'm amplifying parts of myself. I'm smiling more. I'm being more energetic. But if I go to my family and I'm this energetic and bubbly and I start giving them a speech, they're going to be lost. They're going to be like, what did you eat today?

Starting point is 00:30:32 So it's really about that. It's about figuring out which parts of your personality to amplify on camera or on stage, and then playing that role, stepping into those shoes. Some people call this having your Sasha Fierce personality, right? Having a personality that turns on when you need to be on, when you need to be public facing. If that's how it works for you, also totally fine. But at no point are you being quote unquote fake. That's the best way of being authentic when you're being very intentional about which parts of yourself to amplify and to show for

Starting point is 00:31:05 a very specific purpose, which is always to connect with the audience. So what you're saying is you need to have authentic elements, but you need to understand how to read the audience and to share them in a way that is going to resonate with the audience. And that's where you marry your authenticity with the performance of it in a way that's going to get them to buy into your story, buy into the struggles that you're feeling, have an empathy towards you as a speaker and leaning in because they want to learn more.

Starting point is 00:31:46 Is that kind of a good way to think about it? Absolutely. It's always in the service of the audience. So why would you bring more energy? It's not for the sake of bringing more energy. It's for the sake of showing the audience that you are passionate about something so that they also feel that passion. Because people don't know what you're thinking, what you're feeling.

Starting point is 00:32:09 Very often I work with clients who have a poker face and they've just never learned to express things with their face. And that's a problem when you go into a presentation or a podcast or a webinar, and you want to show how incredibly passionate you are about this project or about your area of expertise. But all that comes across is low energy and no expressions. That's not going to show people that you have confidence in yourself and that you really believe in what you're talking about. So that's just one example. Energy is one example. There are many other ways of refining the way that you speak so that you make a better impact. So it's always in service to the audience, to the message, and to your own expertise. Very often, experts speak in a way that does not

Starting point is 00:32:58 do them justice. They are experts in their field, but when they speak, they fail to impress, they fail to engage, they fail to engage, they fail to be memorable. So it's making those changes in the delivery of your message so that it's received well and remembered. From your perspective, how much do you think the audience is paying attention to the words you're saying versus how much do you think they're paying

Starting point is 00:33:25 attention to your body language and the energy for which you're delivering those words? And which of the two is more important? That's such a great question. So they've actually, there've been studies that have been done on this and the same studies have also been discredited. However, the initial study that was done on this by Albert Merriban, he did a study which said that your body language accounts for more than 60%, I believe, of communication. And very often people quote that study and say that, oh, your body speaks more than your actual words based on this study. But since then, the study has actually been discredited. We don't have real research or data on which parts of your communication land with the audience. Is it the message?

Starting point is 00:34:17 Is it the delivery? In my opinion, based on my experience and research and work with clients, I would say it's very much 50-50, mostly, if I really average it out. So for sure, your message is important. Making sure that your message is concise and structured well, that's on the content side of things. And then if you're not delivering it well, you're preparing a gourmet meal and slapping it onto a napkin and

Starting point is 00:34:46 throwing it into the lap of your customer. If you're not delivering the message well, if you're reading from your slides, if you're not making your words come alive, if you're not making an effort to connect with the audience, then you're not doing justice to that message. then you're not doing justice to that message. So that's why delivery is easily 50% of the impact. And this is why I very often advise clients, if you have a presentation coming up, a keynote, a podcast, something that you're preparing for, take the prep time and divide it into two.

Starting point is 00:35:21 And that's how much time you should spend, 50% of it on your message, and then 50% of it on the actual delivery, the actual practice of it, which most people don't do. And the top 1% always make sure they dedicate at least 50% of their prep time to the delivery aspect. I've been watching Jen Gottlieb over the past 18 months. She was a previous guest on the show,

Starting point is 00:35:46 but she has come out of nowhere. I wouldn't say nowhere, because she was on VH1 for a little bit, but from the public speaking arena of people who are going on major stages, she has really come out of obscurity to now sharing the stages with some of the largest speakers in the entire world.

Starting point is 00:36:08 And she's been sharing recently on her Instagram, some of her preparation techniques, and she goes into a studio that appears to be some place that she would practice ballet, which has a lot of mirrors. And in there, she has cameras on, and she's going over these speeches time and time again with cameras. And she's watching her body language, she's watching how she delivers it. She's watching how she's making, she's not making eye contact, but she's looking how she's projecting herself in these images. And to me, it was a really clear example of how intentional you need to be about, uh, the presentations you do.

Starting point is 00:36:53 I remember talking to Susan Cain, who has one of the most popular Ted talks of all time. I think it's been watched now 40 million times. And she told me what people don't see were the 150 times that I practiced that speech before I got up there on stage and did it and rehearsed it and made sure that no matter what went wrong, what happened, I was gonna still be able to get through it. That practice though, in both these cases

Starting point is 00:37:21 is very difficult to do. I mean, one of the things I myself hate is staring there looking at myself while I'm speaking. How do you get through that barrier, which I think is a big barrier to many people? I tell my clients to think of the different rules that they can play. So if you imagine a film set, there is the scriptwriter, there's the actor, and then there's the director. And those roles are happening in your head all the time when you speak. So you're preparing for your presentation, you're scripting what you want to say.

Starting point is 00:38:02 Then of course you're going and performing it, but then there's a voice in your head that critiques you. The best way to make sure that you're not attaching yourself too much to the performance is to focus on one thing at a time. So when you're performing, especially when you're practicing, just practice. And I always discourage people from practicing in front of a mirror because it's not very natural. And it's very hard to focus on the message and on the performance if all you're doing is staring at your face. So recording yourself and watching yourself back is essential, just like an athlete

Starting point is 00:38:42 would go and review tapes of their performance and look at what they did well and what they didn't. So being a performer in the moment when you're practicing, and then when you're reviewing your footage, aim to only have your director hat on. So the person on the screen is the performer, but you're the director of the piece. And now all you need to do is improve the performance of that person on the screen. Okay. They happen to be you.

Starting point is 00:39:10 That's a coincidence, but they could also be anyone else. So if you can separate those roles, if you can let the script writer do their thing, but then shut up so that you can perform instead of rethinking and rewriting all the time. And then if you can let the director critique later and not in the moment, that's how you'll perform really well in the moment. And then when you're reviewing, if you can get the actor to step away and just focus on how can I improve next time, detaching yourself from the person on the screen. That's the best way that I've found of desensitizing yourself to your faults and focusing instead on how do you improve.

Starting point is 00:39:56 Yeah, so let's talk about improv now, because for me, this was one of the ways that I did what you're just talking about, because I don't like looking in mirrors. And for me, it's, I typically have one facial expression and it's typical for, it's difficult for me to express more. But I found when I was doing improv because you're almost playing a different character, every time you're up there, it was easier to break through and you're still playing a different character every time you're up there, it was easier to break through and you're still sharing whether you realize it or not, aspects of yourself when you're doing improv,

Starting point is 00:40:32 it's impossible not to. But I loved that the instructors would critique you then and it wasn't about necessarily your public speaking, per se, but it was about how you were performing. What are your thoughts on that? Improv itself is such an amazing practice because you get to face your worst fear. People are staring at you and you don't know what to say. You don't have a script.

Starting point is 00:41:03 You don't have anything to fall back on. But the beautiful thing about improv is that you're not winging it. There are structures in place. There are rules that you learn. You learn yes and, you learn how to work with your team. You learn how to create a scene. You don't just go there unprepared,

Starting point is 00:41:22 even though you don't have a script. So for me, that's the most beautiful part of improv that I bring into the coaching that I do as well. Because a lot of people feel that they're only those two extremes. You can either have a script and do a presentation and be fully prepared, or you're just gonna wing it. But there's actually a way to be prepared to have mental structures, to have thought structures that will help you structure your thoughts on the fly so that you don't feel like you're just blurting out things completely unprepared. So for me, that's the biggest thing that I learned from improv and that I keep very

Starting point is 00:42:05 close to my heart and then to the coaching work that I do. And I did long form improv as well. And when you're doing that long form, having that framework as you were just talking about it becomes more important because you're up there for a longer time and you're having to improvise for much, much more deeply on the topics and the characters that you're up there for a longer time and you're having to improvise for much more deeply on the topics and the characters that you're playing. Well, I wanna switch to something that you coach people on, which is your out-in-out strategy, which is a three-step framework

Starting point is 00:42:35 for helping people become their most impactful selves. Can you break it down? Yeah, for sure. So the idea is that confidence isn't just about inner confidence, it's also about performative confidence. And very often people just look at one aspect of that and miss the other. So for the longest time, for example, I focused primarily on performative confidence. I was able to go on a stage and speak and be this confident woman that people would then applaud and come up to and say, wow, that was amazing.

Starting point is 00:43:15 But all the while on the inside, I felt awful because I hadn't worked on my inner confidence. Very often I see the switch as well. There are a number of people that have a lot of confidence in their message and in themselves and themselves as an expert, but then they don't know how to show that confidence. So that's why it's you start on the outside. So first you look at how are you being perceived both by yourself and by others. So in my coaching, before we start, we do a self-evaluation of your own communication skills and an anonymous peer feedback process, which is very eyeopening for everyone, where we ask 15 to 20 people that you work with, how

Starting point is 00:43:57 they feel you come across as a communicator. So that's looking at how you're being perceived, going on the outside. Then we work on the inner confidence piece. What is it that you're thinking before you step on that stage? What are the beliefs that you've held that aren't helping you become the best speaker you can be? How do we tackle that? How do we make sure that the confidence that you wanna portray on the outside has a very direct link to the confidence you have on the inside?

Starting point is 00:44:31 And then we take it outside where we look at what are the performative aspects of confidence that we as human beings have learned to associate with confident behavior. So standing with good posture, projecting your voice, not using a lot of ums and uhs, having clear, concise messaging, making eye contact, all those things that we've learned as an audience to connect with, oh, this speaker is confident. You need to know as a speaker what to do so that you create that perception intentionally.

Starting point is 00:45:05 So that's looking outwards, then going inwards, and then coming out again. And that's what I teach in terms of what I call the speaker's toolkit. So you should always know how to play with your voice, how to show up with different types of energy, how to use your body language. Those are all outward confidence tools that help you come across as an amazing speaker. I want to talk about one of the most common scenarios that we often find ourselves in. And it's a question that I've always hated getting throughout my life. And that is, what do you do? I think so often And you mentioned it earlier in this conversation when you get that question you typically

Starting point is 00:45:57 Answer it with a role that you think defines you so for you. It might have been I'm a filmmaker or When you were at Procter & Gamble, it could have been something different But we tend I guess I would have used at one point, I was a CIO, or I'm a vice president, those types of things. But I think there's a much more comprehensive and maybe simpler way to answer this question that ends up blowing people's minds by how you respond. What's your take on this? What you actually do is a very specific outcome of your role. So I absolutely agree. Your role is one way of defining what you do, but it may not always be very clear. So for me, it always comes down to who's asking you the question

Starting point is 00:46:45 and what context and who's going to be at the receiving end. But making sure that you're actually talking about what you actually accomplish, what are the outcomes of the work that you do. So for example, I help people become the best speakers they can be. That probably means more to someone versus me saying, I'm a public speaking coach. So if you can explain in very simple terms, what is the outcome that you achieve or that you help others achieve through your role,

Starting point is 00:47:16 that's gonna have a much more meaningful impact on whoever's listening versus your title. So if someone were to ask you that question, how would you respond to them? It really depends on the platform and on the audience. The reason why I said I help people become the best speakers they can be is we've already had quite a bit of a conversation and we've talked about many different things that I do in a lot of detail. So in this context, I felt that I don't need to over explain that piece of confidence and

Starting point is 00:47:52 the difference that it makes in people's lives. But yes, for sure. Taking it to another level, not just talking about the how piece of it, but really talking about the deeper impact that you can have on people's lives. I help you uncover the confidence that you didn't have when you spoke. That would be a more meaningful way of describing the work that you do. There's a fine balance though.

Starting point is 00:48:21 I would say that it really depends on what kind of an audience is listening in, because for some that answer might be a bit too high level, because you also don't want to be too vague, and you don't want people to not be very clear on what you do, especially if you want them to be future clients, for example, especially if you want them to know what it is that you can actually help them with in a concrete way. Well, thank you for sharing that. And today we've been talking a lot about that the key to impactful public speaking isn't following necessarily a checklist of rules, but it's amplifying who you are and how you're serving your audience. Can you explain how someone can figure out what parts of their personality to spotlight when speaking?

Starting point is 00:49:15 Yes, that is a process that you would start after learning to be a strong speaker. So I always think of it in these two steps, because the very first thing that you need to do when you're learning to excel in any discipline is looking at what has come before you, what are the masters saying, how are they working with the discipline? So if you want to be an artist, the first thing you do is you study the grades

Starting point is 00:49:40 and you look at their techniques. That's what I call understanding and using the speaker's toolkit. So that's the first step, which is just looking at yourself and looking at what are the different ways that you're already speaking and what are your strengths and what are the opportunity areas? How can you be a strong speaker overall? And then step two, once you understand how to work with your voice, how to use your body language, how to show up with the right energy, then you look at how can I

Starting point is 00:50:13 add parts of my personality in this so that I don't sound like every other good speaker. That's where you lean into aspects of your personality. You figure out, am I gonna be, for example, a standoffish, colder, more perhaps sophisticated personality who doesn't always smile, but contributes their opinion and expertise? Or am I gonna be a more friendly, approachable personality that smiles more and emotes more and is more outgoing and shows that part of me, which is not that you want to come to me,

Starting point is 00:50:57 but I want to go to you. So those are the decisions that you would make at that stage where you purposefully look at what is the aspect of your personality that you want to showcase. I always think of one of my favorite clients, Lara Acosta here, because when I first started working with her, I asked her these questions. What part of you do you want to show? She was going to go on all these podcasts and big international stages for the first time.

Starting point is 00:51:23 And she said, a chameleon. I don't know. I'm another person on Instagram. I'm someone else on LinkedIn and I'm someone else in real life. And that was great because then we could pick and choose. We could look at, okay, so are you more glamorous? Are you more funny?

Starting point is 00:51:39 Are you more down to earth? Are you more sophisticated and more into fancy stuff versus more simple stuff? That's the decision that we can make at this point and be very intentional about which aspect of your personality to show on these podcasts and webinars. So it's leaning into one part of it. For me, for example, I lean into taking things in a very lighthearted way, making sure that I'm never very serious, making sure that you see this aspect of my personality that's outgoing and energetic. So those are very intentional decisions that I make. And I can change

Starting point is 00:52:21 the way I speak. I can be more serious and less effervescent if I need to be like now, but that's not the person I want to show on camera. Well, your story that you just gave me reminds me of a guest I had on the show last year, Christina Mon Lacchiani. People may know her. She's the co-founder of mind Valley But she was telling me that she was getting ready to step on one of mine Valley stage To do a performance and for those who follow them They do a lot of big conferences have big name a level speakers on it and she said she was following one of the most famous speakers in the world and was getting really nervous about it. And she realized that the approach that she had been taking often in

Starting point is 00:53:13 the past was she was trying to replicate someone else instead of going up there and just being herself and exposing her raw flaws and vulnerabilities. And she said it made a profound shift because it's virtually impossible to be someone else when you're trying to showcase who you are. And I think that's an important takeaway for people today. I wanted to end today with this question. After 17 years now, you are finally living your dream. What does it mean for you now to be working

Starting point is 00:53:48 as a public speaking coach and how has this new chapter of your life changed your perspective on your life and career and potentially how you're living it in a passion struck way? It's given me immense confidence in myself, the kind of confidence I never had before. So like we spoke at the beginning of the conversation, I always felt like an imposter before in my roles. I always felt like this wasn't me.

Starting point is 00:54:18 And now that I'm doing something that I have lived and that I have been so passionate about and feel so strongly connected with. It feels like I can really shape my life however I like. That kind of feeling gives me confidence and gives me power, gives me so much agency. And I never felt like that before when I was working as a filmmaker, when I was in the corporate world, I always felt like I was living within systems that were defined by other people or institutions had a direct impact on the trajectory

Starting point is 00:54:55 of my life and my career. And now it's very much me. I get to shape my business and my life the way I want. I never dream that was possible before. So just being able to take what I know, what I've learned the hard way and shaping it into something that I can teach people and knowing that this is something that enriches the lives of people is just incredible. I never thought that I would be doing this or I'd be able to share something that I know so well and help others get to the same level.

Starting point is 00:55:32 Nashin, it was such a joy to have you on the show today. How can viewers and listeners get to know more about you? Sure. Speaking.coach. That's my website. That's where you can find lots of free resources and a free course on speaking fearlessly. So it's a very foundational course, but you'll get all the basics of learning to be a strong speaker. You'll get a glimpse of that speaker's toolkit that I've been talking about.

Starting point is 00:55:58 So speaking.coach, that's the best way to find me. Such a pleasure to have you on today. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much, John, for having me. This was such a great conversation. Thank you. What an insightful conversation that was with Nasheen Chen. From her diverse career journey to becoming a public speaking coach, Nasheen has shown

Starting point is 00:56:18 us the incredible power of authenticity and how it can amplify our impact on stage, on camera, and in life. One of the biggest takeaways from today's episode is that true confidence and impactful communication come from aligning with who you genuinely are, not trying to fit into a mold, but creating your own. As we wrap up, think about the areas in your own life where you might be holding back or hiding parts of your authentic self. How can you step into those spaces with more intention, honesty, and courage? And remember, Nashiin's out-in-out framework, whether it's on stage in meetings or even in your personal life, starting from a place of purpose within yourself and transform how

Starting point is 00:56:57 you connect and communicate. If today's episode resonated with you, I would love to hear your thoughts. Please take a moment to leave us a five-star rating in review and let us know how you plan to apply these lessons in your life. And don't forget to share this episode with someone who needs to hear it. Your support not only helps us, but it also helps others on their journey toward becoming more authentic and impactful in their communication. All links to Nasheen's work, including her coaching resources, will be in the show notes

Starting point is 00:57:23 at passionstruck.com. Please use the links if you're interested in learning more. It helps to support the show. You can also find our videos on YouTube and check out all our advertisers, deals, and discount codes at passionstruck.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. And as for me, you can connect with me on Twitter, Instagram, or LinkedIn at John R. Miles.

Starting point is 00:57:42 I'd love to hear from you. Before we wrap up, I want to mention that beyond hosting the Passion Struck podcast, I'm passionate about bringing these insights and strategies directly to organizations, conferences, and teams for keynote speaking engagements. I've had the privilege of speaking to some of the world's top companies and associations, helping their leaders and teams tap into their potential, amplify their message, and create real impactful change. If you want to hire me for an event, you can do so by going to johnrmiles.com. Before we go, I'd like to share a preview of what's coming up next on Passion Struck.

Starting point is 00:58:13 Joining us is Dr. Lisa Miller, a pioneering psychologist, professor, and the bestselling author of The Awakened Brain. Dr. Miller will be taking us on a fascinating exploration of the connection between spirituality and mental health, sharing groundbreaking insights into how we can cultivate resilience, purpose and inner strength. It's an episode that will challenge how you think about wellbeing and provide you with tools to thrive in all areas of life. Thank you as always for spending your time with us here on Passion Star.

Starting point is 00:58:40 It doesn't matter if I'm Hindu or Christian or Catholic or Jewish or Muslim, there's one spiritual brain. And of course, there's one source of life. So we have one spiritual brain and we have one source of life. We're all spiritual beings and we're on this common shared, there's one spiritual journey. Now we can call it different things. There's beautiful faith traditions, Hashem, God, Jesus, a lot, but we're on one spiritual journey together. Remember, the fee for the show is simple. If you found value in today's episode, share it with someone who could benefit. And as always, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so that you can live what you listen. Until next time, live life passion-struck. you

Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Nausheen Chen on How to Embrace Your Unique Voice | EP 530

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