Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Permit Yourself to Dream the Dream w/ Former Astronaut Wendy Lawrence EP 62

Starting point is 00:00:00 You have to be able to adapt to the situation you're in. You know, sometimes you need to be that supportive listening ear, you go up and put your arm around some body and say, Hey, I'm here for you. I know you're struggling right now. Let's just go off and talk. Sometimes you got to maybe be out of character and come in and just drop the bombshell.

Starting point is 00:00:22 I had to do that a couple times as a midshim. And I was not a yell or an screamer, but there were a couple times where I. I had to do that a couple times as a midship, and I was not a yell or an screamer, but there were a couple times where I knew I had to get the attention of the people that I was responsible for. So I came in and then very uncharacteristically yelled at them, and I got their attention. And then we had a conversation. I did that as a J.O. one time,

Starting point is 00:00:40 where I had to get the attention of my detachment, because they were getting a little bit complacent. So along with the chief, we came in in a very dramatic fashion and we got everybody's attention. So I think you're going to be an effective leader. You have to understand that particular situations are going to require you to respond in a different way. So you can't just do the same thing day in and day out.

Starting point is 00:01:05 Welcome Visionaries, graders, innovators, entrepreneurs, leaders, and growth seekers of all types to the PassionStruck podcast. Hi, I'm John Miles, a peak performance coach, multi industry CEO, Navy veteran, and entrepreneur on a mission to make Passion Go viral for millions worldwide. In each week, I do so by sharing with you

Starting point is 00:01:26 an inspirational message in interviewing high achievers from all walks of life to unlock their secrets and lessons to become an action struck. The purpose of our show is to serve you the listener. By giving you tips, tasks, and activities, you can use to achieve peak performance and for two, a passion-driven life you have always wanted to have. Now let's become

Starting point is 00:01:51 passion-struck. Welcome to the Passion Start podcast in this special episode that we have today. And I wanted to thank all of you for taking the time to listen or watch the show. We know you've got millions of other choices where you could be spending your time and podcasts that you could be tuning into. If you truly love today's episode, please consider giving the show five star rating and joining the other 1000 plus five star ratings

Starting point is 00:02:20 we have for the show. It means so much for getting our goal of passion to go viral worldwide. Now let me get on with this episode. I'm going to start with two quotes from former NASA Chief Astronaut Peggy Wittsen. In the first she said, I think the biggest advice that I could give people is to actually try and live beyond your dreams by pushing yourself, challenging yourself, to do things a little bit outside of your comfort zone. And her second quote, I know the first female astronauts selected were an inspiration to me, and so maybe I will be a

Starting point is 00:02:58 role model. That second quote means so much as a setup to today's episode because we actually have means so much as a setup to today's episode because we actually have one of those first female astronauts who preceded Peggy. Today's guest is retired Navy captain and NASA astronaut Wendy Lawrence. Wendy is a retired United States Navy captain, former helicopter pilot, an engineer and former NASA astronaut. Lawrence graduated from the U.S. Naval Academy and became a distinguished flight school graduate. She has more than 1,500 hours of flight time in six different types of helicopters and has made more than 800 ship-board landings. She was the first email graduate of the

Starting point is 00:03:42 U.S. Naval Academy to fly in space, and she has also visited the Russian Space Station, Mer. She was a mission specialist on STS-67, STS-86, STS-91, and STS-114. The first space shuttle flight after the shuttle Columbia disaster. In 2019 she became the Naval Academy's first female to be given the Distinguished Graduate Award following in the footsteps of her father, Vice Admiral William Lawrence, who won the award in 2000 and Wendy also has a master's degree from MIT. Such an amazing guest today and we talk about what drove her to go to the Naval Academy and then pursue that dream

Starting point is 00:04:31 of going to space. The skill sets that future astronauts will need, and what she thinks are the most important traits for any astronaut to have. The value of all the extensive training that astronauts go through and how her development from the Naval Academy to going to flight school to then getting her graduate degree at MIT prepared her for being the astronaut that she became. We talk in depth about why so few today

Starting point is 00:05:01 are taking that chance to live the dream and her reasons around it. Why so many people live outside of their comfort zone? She discusses in-depth the sensation that she went through during her first launch and what she thinks the future of space will hold both for the astronaut program and for the commercial program. Lastly, we also talk about current astronaut Kayla Barons upcoming mission and what to expect from that as well. I had such a great time interviewing Wendy, who I've known for over 30 years.

Starting point is 00:05:35 Now, let's become PassionStrike. I am so excited today to welcome retired NASA astronaut and Navy Captain Wendy Lawrence to the Passion Start podcast. Welcome Wendy. Thank you John, great to be here with you. It's great to see you again. Are you going to explain why? I'll explain why.

Starting point is 00:06:03 So for the viewer listener, Wendy and I have known each other for quite a long time going back to, I must have been my sophomore year at the Naval Academy and she was my instructor and it was the same year that she actually found out that she was accepted to become a NASA astronaut. Correct, yep, youngster physics. And not only did I get to enjoy that with you,

Starting point is 00:06:27 you were also the instructor who took me to Pensacola where we got to spend a few weeks doing flight training. Yes, okay, yeah, that was an interesting time. When sadly, maybe didn't have enough money to let you all actually fly a lot. So we had to find some other ways to introduce you to naval aviation in Pensacola. So hopefully that ended up being a worthwhile week. It was a worthwhile week.

Starting point is 00:06:52 And I'll tell you the highlight for me is I like being, I think they were T-34s, but for me, I really enjoyed being in the helicopter because it had a few different added elements of challenge that an aircraft itself does not have. Which I know you're you're aware of. Yeah, exactly why I ended up in helicopters. I thought maybe a good starting point if the listeners aren't familiar with your story, because you've got a great one. You didn't originally have the intention of going to the Naval Academy because when you started in high school, there weren't females at that time at the Academy. That's exactly right. It wasn in high school, there weren't females at that time at the academy.

Starting point is 00:07:26 That's exactly right. It wasn't an option. Women weren't attending service academies. Even though I grew up in an AV family, my mom's dad went to the Naval Academy, graduated in the class of 1930. My dad went there, graduated in the class of 1951. Following the footsteps of them,

Starting point is 00:07:42 wasn't an option for me until my senior year of high school. Well, and that's because just in class in 1980, would have been the first class that had females in it. So I know when we have talked in the past, you like many of your generation, got to watch Neil Armstrong, land on the moon, that became for you the beginning of a dream. But as you were gearing up through high school, what was going to be your plan before the Naval Academy became the option that it did? You know, you like a lot of kids in high school,

Starting point is 00:08:14 you're trying to sort through this, you know, what is it that I really want to do? And it's not an easy decision. And unfortunately, back when I was in high school, you know, we didn't have a lot of hands-on options to explore career opportunities. You could go to your counselor and she or he would hand you books of colleges and you could look through the brochures and get a feel. But you know, really wasn't a rigorous or robust way to kind of decide what the rest of your life was going to look like. Again, growing up in a Navy family, man, I had an opportunity to live near oceans because a lot of the naval bases, yes,

Starting point is 00:08:50 are right there on the waterfront. So I always had an interest in the ocean, oceanography, and before the naval academy became an option, that was probably my primary interest. I felt, okay, I've always enjoyed going down to the ocean. I've always enjoyed the trips to the tide pools that I took throughout my school years. I have a fascination with sea life.

Starting point is 00:09:13 So I'll look for colleges that have a strong ocean on a periphery program. And so I was looking at college, William and Mary, had a good program, University of Miami, had a good program. But beyond that, I didn't really have strong interests. I had had an opportunity to fly with a friend of my dad, and that was interest to me, but really, I think at that point in time, early high school, oceanography was the primary interest.

Starting point is 00:09:39 Hey, and I know you also had the special privilege that you knew for your father many of the first astronauts and their families. Yeah, my dad was Alan Shepherd's wingman. Right after my dad got his wings, he got sent to a squadron out at Moffitt Naval Air Station. At that point, time Alan Shepherd was a lieutenant commander. My dad was a newly minted naval aviator. So he was paired with Alan Shepherd. When my dad was at test pilot school,

Starting point is 00:10:09 so it's a little bit before I was born, John Glenn lived down the street. So my older brother and sister played with the Glenn kid. So yes, the first several groups of astronauts had family friends. And that really, I think heightened the interest in the space program in our household. So I recently was doing an interview with Caleb Aaron, who was one of the latest groups of astronauts

Starting point is 00:10:32 who were selected. And I couldn't believe how many applicants there are today. I think there were 15,000. And I, to put this in a different perspective, the odds of becoming an astronaut are less than the odds of making four star in the Marine Corps, which to me is the hardest one probably to make four star in. So it's less than a percentage point of all the applicants. So I know if a person's lessening and I ask Kayla the same question, you and Kayla came from different points. You kind of lived most of your life with the dream of wanting to become a astronaut and for her, it happened a little bit later, or someone who

Starting point is 00:11:10 might be listening, whether they might be in high school, younger than that, or in college, or outside of college, what would be some of the advice that you would give someone who has a hope or dream of becoming an astronaut? Well, I would start off by saying, give yourself the opportunity to pursue the dream because you're never gonna know how it will work out for you unless you take those very first steps. And yes, those very first steps may be uncomfortable. They may be a little scary.

Starting point is 00:11:39 You may not feel like they're going well, but until you try and make some adjustments along the way of necessary, you never really know how far down that path you're going to get. And I think too many people just, they start to think about what it is that they want to do and they lay out the initial steps they think they need to take and then they get overwhelmed. And that means they get paralyzed. You know, just lay out a series of steps, focus on the next step, evaluate how well that's going, ask for help if you need it, get some feedback, find some mentors, and then keep moving forward in the general direction of where you think you need to head to make that dream come true.

Starting point is 00:12:18 But you've got to take the first step. Otherwise, you're going nowhere. Yeah, and after you take that first step, I call it action stacking because the more actions you take, you start building upon each one. And before you know it, you have moved so far, and what we're looking back seem like the blink of an eye to that starting point, but you're right, if you don't make that choice, and then do something about it, you're never going to have any success pursuing it. Very likely you're going to get down the road and you're going to have regret. And regret can be a very, very powerful emotion. So that's the other thing I say to kids is you don't want to get 10, 15 years down the road and look back at that moment and regret your decision because you will continue to regret that decision

Starting point is 00:13:04 throughout most of your life. Yeah and I think we're in a growing society now where we like instant gratification, we like, I call it living in this box that we don't like to climb out of because it's comfortable to us and when we're introduced to setbacks, We tend to not want to overcome them or don't challenge ourselves to do it. And I really believe that you kind of have to put yourself in almost a continual state of discomfort if you're gonna grow.

Starting point is 00:13:36 And I wanted to understand if that's something you agree with. I do. And I think Peggy Wittson, another retired NASA astronaut who has more time in space than any other NASA astronaut, puts it well. And she is the, she will stay in front of a group of kids and say, you have to step outside of your comfort zone. You just have to push yourself to do that.

Starting point is 00:14:00 If you're gonna have success, if you're gonna make progress, you can't just continue to sit in the bubble where everything's easy and comfortable. You've got to be willing to push yourself even if it doesn't feel comfortable to you. So yes, I agree wholeheartedly with Peggy. You have to be willing to take those steps that will eventually put you outside of your comfort zone. And I think you're gonna be surprised that you have the ability to work well in that area. But again, you're not gonna know until you take those very first steps and you give it a shot. Yeah, such true advice, regardless if you wanna be an astronaut,

Starting point is 00:14:37 the CEO of a startup or a doctor or whatever it may be. You're going to run into obstacles. And to me, it's getting through those that create so much strength and self-confidence in the person that you can become. Yes. So I know when you went through the Naval Academy, it had to be challenging for you.

Starting point is 00:14:59 Not only were you the second class of females going through, more importantly, your dad at the time was the superintendent, which if you're a civilian listening to this, that's kind of the president of the university. And that had, I think in some ways, work for you, but in many more ways, worked against you, based on my experience being there with classmates

Starting point is 00:15:20 who had fathers who were admirals or generals. So how did you get through that challenge? Well, yes. Let's just say that everybody ends up knowing who you are. And everybody's just waiting and watching and they're wondering if you're going to follow the rules or you're going to take advantage of the situation and say, hey, my dad's the soup. I'm going to go do whatever I want to. I took the approach that I was just going to keep my head down. I wasn't going to do things that drew attention to myself. I was just going to day in, day out strive to be a good midshipman academically, professionally. And, yeah, okay, every so often I did kind of

Starting point is 00:16:00 bend the rules and technically, you know, I may not have had yard liberty that day, but if I'm running by my dad's house after crew practice and I just want to stop it and say hi and pet our dogs, then yeah, I do that every so often. But for the most part, I just tried to divorce myself from the fact that my dad's over at Buchanan House. I live in Bankcroft Hall, so this is where this is the area in which my life predominantly revolves around that and the academic buildings. And so I'm just going to focus day and day out. Like I said, I'm being a good midshipman. And then the other some funds family stories to tell. There was definitely an education process where I had to remind my dad that you're the superintendent and you just can't pick up the phone and call my company area

Starting point is 00:16:45 and ask to talk to me because the poor fourth-class midshipman who answers the phone and hears that the soups on the other end of the line, that's a very stressful situation for them. So it was kind of fun. The first few months, I was the one who was kind of educating my dad about, all right, we're going to have to them down right here. And I'm gonna pretty much call the shots because I'm the one who's a little bit of this advantage being the midshipman. You're the top dog and I'm weighed down here at the bottom of the pile. So let me tell you how this is gonna work for us. Well, did you have any thought in your mind that at that point in time, not only were you gonna become become an astronaut but you were going

Starting point is 00:17:26 to become what I think is the first female distinguished graduate of the Naval Academy. I wouldn't an incredible honor. Well, you know, back then there was no such award. That didn't come about and I think until the early 2000s that the Alumni Association decided the model of program that was already in place at West Point is to select distinguished graduates to be recognized in this way. You know, honestly as a midshipman, yes, it was still very much my dream to become an astronaut. With the beginning of the shuttle program, with NASA selecting women in the first class, the shuttle astronauts. I think the dream took on a little bit better definition. I think it was a little bit more hopeful that, hey, there are finally people who look like me doing this.

Starting point is 00:18:12 So maybe this really is going to be a realistic option. Maybe this is really something I can accomplish. But again, I was just trying to stay focused on life as a midshipman, do well academically. I knew I had to do well academically because there were so few women at the Academy and so few women out in the Navy, opportunities to become a pilot were very limited for women. So I knew that I had to be at the top of my class academically if I was going to be able to select a pilot slot that was

Starting point is 00:18:42 designated for women. Yes, and for those who have never been in a helicopter and especially a helicopter at sea, it has been some of the most harrowing moments of my career, especially when you're landing in the middle of a storm and the ship below you is bouncing up and down. What was, if you think about it, one of the most harrowing experiences

Starting point is 00:19:04 when you were on deployment that you had in a helicopter? I will start off one of the most harrowing experiences when you were on deployment that you had in helicopter. I will start off by saying, the most terrifying thing I've ever done in my life is not right around the rocket to space. It's land helicopter on a back of a ship at night when it was so dark you really couldn't make out a visible horizon. Consider when I was flying the helicopters. This was all pre-night vision goggles.

Starting point is 00:19:24 So all we had were the lights that were on around the landing deck area and we had a line of lights that were called our line up lines, you know, helping us to line up so that we could end up over the majority of the flight deck, the widest part of the flight deck. So hands down, most terrifying thing I've ever done is is landing helicopter at night. And then doing a couple of North Atlantic cruises where the sea state really was quite challenging. I mean, we called our landings nothing more than a controlled crash. We would watch the ship pitch and roll beneath us and then we waited until it somewhat came to a level position

Starting point is 00:20:02 and we literally lowered what was called the collective to slam down on the deck. And we hoped the flight deck crew could get out to us quickly enough to chalk and chin us that we wouldn't bounce around and start sliding around the flight deck. But there have been a few times, few takeoffs in the C states where you started takeoff

Starting point is 00:20:19 and you literally started the slide sideways along the deck. And you realized I gotta get up in the air much, much more quickly. So yeah, it's plan helicopter, modern office ship, very challenging, but also very rewarding. I mean, I thoroughly enjoyed life as a helicopter pilot.

Starting point is 00:20:34 Guy thought one of my most interesting experiences when we were underway and we did what's called an underway replenishment. And if you're not familiar with that, let's say you're on a destroyer, a transport ship comes that has cargo and other things to sustain the destroyer, cruiser, whatever it might be. And at the time, I remember being primarily CH-46s

Starting point is 00:20:56 would come up, they grabbed the material and then bring it over on the ship. And I used to be in awe of these pilots because of the skill that they had to do that job, especially as you're saying when we were all pitching. It's an interesting maneuver and something US Navy does extremely well. And a very, very fun flying. I pretty much see the pants flying.

Starting point is 00:21:21 So I really enjoyed, I got to fly that H-46 and it's a very responsive helicopter with the tandem rotors on top and it allowed you to do a wide range maneuver. So Vertrepo was really, really quite fun. Well, with that heroin experience behind you, I have always wanted to ask an astronaut and I have never asked this question, but what is going through your mind?

Starting point is 00:21:44 The first time you run the space shuttle and you're on the launch pad and you're 10, 15 seconds to go. I mean, what is it excitement that's going through your mind? Is it fear? What was that sensation like? For me, never fear, because I've been waiting way too long from opportunity to finally ride the rocket. Excitement definitely listening to the final chatter,

Starting point is 00:22:07 looking at all the systems on board, hoping that everything was gonna work. And then when the engines light off, you think, oh my gosh, this isn't anything like the simulator or the centrifuge. I mean, who just sat down on my chair? The power, to this day, I can't capture in words to adequately describe the sense of power and acceleration

Starting point is 00:22:25 you feel. You know, for me, it was the shuttle. It was 6.5 million pounds of thrust. Big number feels even bigger. It was incredible. Again, an incredible sense of power and acceleration. I mean, you felt like you were in the world's biggest catapult. You know the moment you leave the launch pad. It's like you were in the world's biggest catapult. You know the moment you leave a launch pad

Starting point is 00:22:46 It's like a kick in the chest and then that pressure on the chest just continues to build and I do remember thinking to myself on my first Like oh my gosh and elephant just sat down on me and I can't even Read it is so heavy and then you just try and enjoy the ride. I mean you've got the very professional side of you that's continually And then you just try and enjoy the ride. I mean, you've got the very professional side of you that's continually monitoring all the systems on board. But then there's also this little kid set of you that goes, oh my gosh, this is fantastic. I, hey, roller coasters, you have nothing to this.

Starting point is 00:23:18 And you just try and soak everything in and thoroughly enjoy the moment that you're living in. Yeah, something I wish I could experience someday. And maybe with the new programs that are coming out, maybe it will be a possibility in the future. They're doing low earth orbit. You obviously went much farther than that. You know, with that as a backdrop, I did want to ask,

Starting point is 00:23:41 if you were in astronaut again, and you were just starting your career, what would be your ideal mission? Well, I'm a little biased because the dream started with watching two men walk on the moon, so I'd love to eventually end up on the moon one day. But if you're in the astronaut office right now, I think you want to set your sights on doing the mission on board at the International Space Station, because that's very important experience. One, working with your crewmates, in particular crewmates from other countries, getting that international experience, but then also getting a long pretty-to-time

Starting point is 00:24:14 end space, I think, is important. And doing it initially in close coordination with mission control. Future missions for NASA are going to take astronauts farther and farther away from the planet. Okay, yes, when you're on the moon, you still have good communications with mission control, but the crew that goes to Mars is going to be in a very different operational environment. You watch movies and people just assume the crew will be able to solve problems with mission control. That's not going to be the case on Mars. That is going to be a crew that's pretty much on their own and you'll have a huge delay in getting a response for mission control. So any situation in which you think

Starting point is 00:24:52 you have to take immediate action, you and your crewmates have to develop that plan. So getting experience, operational experience, again, key in my opinion, starting off on the International Space Station to get that experience, very good step. If you're able to then be part of the crew that goes to the Moon's under the Artemis program, another very important step to take. But I don't think anybody on the who gets to go to Mars for the first time is going to be an astronaut who hasn't flown before. So I'd say getting the astronaut office, develop your professional reputation,

Starting point is 00:25:26 study hard, learn the systems in your spacecraft, really well, hone your skills, flying the robotic arm and giving a spacewalk, and then look for the first flat opportunity you can get. And I understand once you're selected, it takes several years to go through training. What is some of the training as an astronaut you went through? Because I understand there's swimming pool training, there's lots of different components.

Starting point is 00:25:50 Can you talk about that and what, and has it changed since you went through the program? Well, it has changed because the spacecraft has changed, but for me it was like, wow, this is just like being in flight training in Pensacola under the Navy. First and foremost, you've got to learn the platform that you're gonna fly on. So for me, it was the patient's facial. And then pretty much immediately you start learning each and every system of this facial.

Starting point is 00:26:17 So you've got to get your basic systems knowledge, then you have to practice how to interact with that system. So we had procedural trainers, not unlike what I did at Pensacola for the T-34 aircraft. NASA called them single-system trainers, so it gave you an opportunity to practice procedures to operate it and then just go through your emergency procedures to see the signatures for a particular failure. By that I mean, what am I going to see on my display screens that helps me understand what I'm seeing is this particular failure.

Starting point is 00:26:51 And therefore, I need to go to this particular emergency procedure. And so it's pretty much a very deliberate step-by-step process to build your knowledge. And eventually, you end up in the full up simulator, which by that that I mean, one that has all the systems integrated into it. But the fun part is there are other things that you get to learn on the way. We were still learning geography and I think the Ashnot

Starting point is 00:27:15 candidates still get to do that initially in their training flow. Now for current groups of Ashnot candidates, right off the bat, they're going to learn how to fly the space station robotic arm. They're going to learn how to do spacewalks. There may be some language trading in there as well. Maybe a Russian language trading. But there are a whole host of things that they're going to learn and still come into my experience and current experience for astronaut candidates. Zoning how to fly in the T34, because that's pretty fast jet. It puts you in a situation where you have to work with one other person, and it forces you

Starting point is 00:27:49 to begin to process information more quickly. The spacecraft you're gonna fly on, when you'll block it off the planet, when you're up in space, it's a very fast-paced environment. Particularly when you're riding the rocket to space, you've got to be able to very quickly assess a situation. I mean, in a matter of seconds, you've got to be able to very quickly assess a situation. I mean, in a matter of seconds, you've got to be able to very clearly and concisely communicate that to the rest of your

Starting point is 00:28:10 crew and then decide what to do. So the T-38 was a good intermediate step to get you in an environment where you're flying around just below Mach 1 and you've got to quickly diagnose something again, communicate it to your crewmate, jointly design on your next course of action and then take it. And if I remember from our past discussion, one of the unique things about your career was that you were on a space shuttle launch that followed a very unfortunate disaster. And so I can't imagine after that has transpired being in that next group, but you told me following that mishap, that NASA completely changed the way

Starting point is 00:28:56 that they were interacting with you and kind of the way that you and your other crew members were requesting to interact with NASA. Can you talk about that a little bit and is that philosophy persisted since that time? So yes, my last flight, SDS 114, was the first return to flight mission following the loss of the Columbia orbiter

Starting point is 00:29:18 and the SDS 107 crew on board. So definitely a very high profile mission test flight in that there were recommendations provided by the accident investigation board where during our mission we had to show that we NASA had come up with ways to meet those recommendations. So doing an on-orbit inspection, being able to look at the entire outside of the orbiter as we went around the planet, being able to look for damage to the RCC orbiter as we went around the planet, being able to look for damage to the RCC panels, protected panels on the front of the wings and the tiles and the thermal protection system,

Starting point is 00:29:52 having some solutions for repairing minor damage. So those were things that we did during the mission. And I don't want to give the impression that NASA was in a situation where they never listened to the crew. It just so happened that after the accident, the two individuals who became a program manager for the shuttle program and the deputy program manager, they were very attentive to the crew's concerns, meaning SDS-114 crew.

Starting point is 00:30:24 They wanted to have a good flow of communication, not just with the crew, but for the engineers that were in the program as well. And so they pretty much had an open office policy. And I think a monthly basis are crew when it works to talk with them. In this case, they close the door and say, tell us how you guys are feeling

Starting point is 00:30:43 about what we're doing. The door's closed, so I want you to be frank and want you to be honest. I don't want you to hold anything back. You know, they recognize that part of the problem they contributed to the 107 accident was there was not a great flow of communication up to the highest levels. Information got compressed, consolidated, and there was also an environment which some people were very reluctant to speak out. And so these two individuals had the mindset that we're going to change that. We want people to feel comfortable bringing us unpleasant news, bad news. We don't want them to feel like they're going to get in trouble because they have disappointing

Starting point is 00:31:25 news to share with us. So I compliment those two individuals for doing that. I think there's still a desire on NASA's part to maintain that, but it's challenging. And I haven't been back at the NASA Center for a while. I'll take those people have still been working remotely. So it's hard to comment on whether or not that openness still persists, but I know it's a goal of many managers is to make sure they create an environment in which employees feel comfortable bringing them bad news.

Starting point is 00:31:57 I wonder how that changes now that the mission has shifted from NASA or Russian delivery vehicle to a commercial vehicle. And how much interaction there still is between the astronauts and those commercial contractors. I'm assuming there's a ton. I don't think it's as much as some crew members would like to have. I think it depends on who you fly with, but you know, they're a commercial entity. They have proprietary information. My understanding is astronauts have to sign non-sclojure agreement. I think that's the case. So they're restricted on what they can talk about.

Starting point is 00:32:34 Again, I can't directly comment to it because I haven't been able to be in a situation where I can spend several days in the astronaut office in a row and observe it. But I think it is a different relationship again, because no longer does NASA own a situation where I can spend several days in the astronaut office in a row and observe it. But I think it is a different relationship again because no longer does NASA own the spacecraft case of Cardo Dragon and Krueger and built by SpaceX, SpaceX owns that spacecraft. SpaceX operates that spacecraft. They're responsible for day-to-day operation of the vehicle. NASA is still responsible for the overall execution of the mission. So how much information gets shared not gonna be the

Starting point is 00:33:10 same as when you directly own the spacecraft and you are the ones responsible for operating it on a basis. But if it affects the ability to carry out the mission then that information has to get conveyed to NASA. So it is a different environment. It definitely is a different environment. Did you know that Forbes Magazine recently cited that 70% of individuals who do personal development masterminds and one-on-one coaching benefited from better work performance, increased communication skills, and overall better relationships. And we, at PassionStruck,

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Starting point is 00:34:10 teach, both minded individuals, to help them step into their sharp edges, execute on their passion journeys and get predictable results time and time again. Go to passionstruck.com slash coaching right now and let's get igniting. You told me a very interesting story that at that up into that point I didn't really realize is that when NASA made the decision to shut down the shuttle program and to turn this over to commercial industry, the approach that Boeing took and the approach that SpaceX took were very different from the onset. And to me, it was quite eye-opening because a much larger chunk

Starting point is 00:34:53 of the budget went to Boeing than it did to SpaceX. Yet SpaceX, you could rightfully say, has been the faster one to achieve many of the milestones. Can you talk about what that difference was and kind of the gamble that Space X took at the beginning? So just to make sure his history is accurately captured here, the directive came from President Bush in 2004. Decision was made that once the US portion of the space station was built, the space shuttle

Starting point is 00:35:26 would be retired. Shuttles were the way to get the main modules up there. And at that point, two time, two was going to be the last component provided by NASA. At that point, shuttles would stop. So an emphasis was put in place to transition from a shuttle providing support to allowing some commercial companies to provide support to NASA in terms of delivering cargo and eventually crude to the space station. And so it was really the initial NASA employees working in the commercial office, commercial programs office. Let's just call it that.

Starting point is 00:36:03 You had the foresight to say, let's lay out the contract so that if a company wants to eventually be in a position to carry crew members to space, they can do it through this initial contract. And so there were several parts of this contract. Part E was the part that included a provision to eventually carry astronauts to the International Space Station. So SpaceX's approach was, we want to be able to participate in all steps of the contract. So let's design our capsule in a way that initially can be used to carry cargo. And then without a significant amount of modification, we can design that capsule to also carry crew members and be rated to carry crew members. I think I can't remember if Boeing then bid on the commercial crew contract.

Starting point is 00:37:07 And when that came in place, and he was close to 2010. So at that point, SpaceX had already had the opportunity to be working for several years on the basic design of the capsule that eventually they modified to become their proversially capsule. So yes, it gave SpaceX a head start. It was really, I think, a very smart decision on SpaceX part to get in there immediately, start working with NASA, understand the way that they're going to have to work with NASA, understand the way NASA levied requirements and then enforced compliance with those requirements,

Starting point is 00:37:44 get a sense of how NASA evaluated system design in terms of safety. So, yeah, I do think it gave space X ahead start over going. Yeah, and do you think as we start approaching the moon and then Mars, that this is going to be a multi-national group that comes together or do you think this is going to be nationalized where there'll be a US program with some international components, a China program, maybe another country's program, each individually trying to do it. How do you see that future that future working? Right now, the Wolf Amendment prohibits NASA for working with China.

Starting point is 00:38:26 So until that changes, there won't be an opportunity for the two countries to have any significant participation together. So it's a long way of saying, I think China will continue to go off and build their space program. You see NASA go back to the moon and do the Artemis program and eventually on the Mars, you're going to see a model pretty much with what you see with the International

Starting point is 00:38:48 Space Station where you could say NASA is kind of a lead integrator. There are other space agencies participating, but NASA takes the lead in integrating the entire program. So it's been a very successful approach with the International Space Station and it's already the approach that you're seeing with the Art and the program with other space agencies participating in it, but NASA really is the prime integrator. of interviews that the head of astronaut selection was doing. And coming out of that, I was pretty surprised that many of the selection criteria that they're looking for future astronauts has expanded from when you were going through the program. They're looking for, obviously, you need to have a STEM background.

Starting point is 00:39:39 You have to have an advanced degree, but they're looking for healthcare professionals, people who have advanced science degrees. I know in the case of Kayla, I think one of the things that attracted them to her is her her graduate degrees were in advanced nuclear power and how to do it in a green way. And as I think about the future of space, you know, some of the probes we have up, they're all already have some radioactive isotopes. So I'm thinking there's probably a good connection that we're going to need nuclear power

Starting point is 00:40:11 to get the power things to and from Mars and do it in an effective way. So it's interesting that the skill sets are drastically changing. I wouldn't say the fundamental floor is, but can you maybe give some more color to that? I was getting mine basically just from listen to a few interviews. Well, I think when you compare it to the first group of astronauts selected, yes, things are very different. I can pretty much the requirement for the first groups were bachelors degree, test pilot below a certain height, above a certain height. In the shuttle program, though, I think is when things really,

Starting point is 00:40:45 really change because finally, there was an emphasis on selecting non-pilot astronauts. And so the emphasis was put on educational background and STEM fields. If you were applying and you were not in the military, you was pretty well understood amongst the civilian applicants that to be competitive you really needed to have a PhD. So again a pretty extensive educational background and then work experience, relevant experience showing that you can take what you've

Starting point is 00:41:18 learned in the classroom and apply it outside of that setting to the problems that are particular to whatever discipline you've got in your degree in. So that emphasis to me still remains the same. Because there have been so many applicants in the past, I think the decision to end the rally was, I can't remember anybody you got selected with just a patchless degree when I was at NASA. Pretty much even the military folks had at least a master's. So that's just again, acknowledgement of the way the selection process has worked out

Starting point is 00:41:49 over the many past years. So NASA has now finally made that official. You have to have a master's. But I think there also is an increasing emphasis on what sort of activities do you engage in outside of work? Because it's important for us to see that you are comfortable in an environment that has a degree of risk that you have some ability to assess that risk

Starting point is 00:42:14 and then put plans in place that help to control that risk, to minimize the chance that it will occur. Is all those skills are very relevant to your life as a national. They're critically important to when you're carrying out admission as well. You have to have that ability to assess this situation and determine whether or not things are on track or maybe they're going off track and there's a risk of a particular problem occurring. Yes, and I remember in my interview when I was talking to someone you also know, Chris Cassidy,

Starting point is 00:42:49 I think you were actually part of the selection process that brought him into NASA. Yep. Chris was describing to me the parallels between seal training and astronaut training, because he said, similar to being a seal, he spent 18 months to two years in a workup for a one-year deployment. And he said it's kind of the same thing as an astronaut. You're gearing up for a couple of years before the mission. And we were talking about one of his spacewalks where he was out with, and I think it was an Italian astronaut who started to get water in his mask and it says, I have to be honest with you. I don't remember grabbing him.

Starting point is 00:43:27 I don't remember opening the hatch. I don't remember putting him in. I don't, he goes, all of it was just automatic because I trained for thousands of times. So when it happened, similar to when you're in warfare, your mind just takes over from that habit of practice so much. But it really brought home to me the discipline that you have to have to be able to do that detailed level of training and practice, because some people that I've worked with just don't like to do that habitual thing like

Starting point is 00:44:02 your force do. So it got me wondering, what do you think are some of the most important traits that make a successful astronaut? Oh, delay gratification. To your point, to Chris' point, I think NASA's a great example of this. When you look at any particular mission, there have been a group of people

Starting point is 00:44:19 who've started probably year to three years in advance planning that mission. And their job is to sit around a room and what if? Okay, what if this happens? How are we going to handle that situation? You know, what are what's going to be the acceptable environment for us to operate in? And what are the limits? What are the boundaries? And what happens when we cross one of those limits? How are we going to handle that situation? So some people will say, oh, and Asa makes it look easy with the way they carry out these missions, only because there's been a very dedicated group of people

Starting point is 00:44:54 who day in and day out came to work, not really exciting or thrilling work because they're sitting at a table, but incredibly important work. It is the foundation of every mission, that planning effort. And so you have It is the foundation of every mission that planning effort. And so you have to be the sort of person you can endure that. Because you know that mission is going to be two, three years down the road.

Starting point is 00:45:14 So that's that delayed gratification part. You're not going to get to see the results of your hard work until a pretty long period of time away. Then you also have to be very focused and you have to be very disciplined because this is a deliberate process that you have to go through every time to make the mission successful. And if you're a person you just can't be in that sort of deliberate environment where you've got to have a lot of action each and every day. And I'm not sure that life is an astronaut is really suited for you because that fun part, that action every day doesn't happen very often. You spend most of your time supporting the program via a ground-based job, what's called a technical assignment.

Starting point is 00:46:02 You have a very long training flow that sometimes could be, you know, two to three times longer than the period of time you get to spend in space. Yeah, and looking back, Wendy, do you have a member? I don't want to call it the coolest thing that you ever did when you were up there. But was there something that just completely stunned you or when you think back upon it is a favorite memory of yours?

Starting point is 00:46:24 Yeah, I was really hard to single out one thing because again, you spend so much time training and so little released in the shuttle program, so little time up in space. So you tend to savor every moment, think I will ride the rocket, think I will float around, think I will look out the window back at your own planet. But more importantly, finally being able to do what you've been training to do, that is very rewarding. And again, when you've been training a year, 18 months practicing the same thing,

Starting point is 00:46:51 they in and day out, when you finally get to do it during the mission and it goes well, that is a very fun moment. It's one that you tend to savor, and again, remember for a very long period of time. Okay, and if you were asked to do the commencement speech at the Naval Academy, what topic would you pick and why? Well, I've given a four-stall lecture.

Starting point is 00:47:13 I know, I was going to ask my normal question. I know you already gave one. And actually, Admiral Rent asked me in particular to talk about international cooperation because he was really putting an emphasis on shipment going to other countries and learning how to work with them. So I talked about my experience in Russia. You know, there are a lot of things that are good to talk to the mids about, but I'd

Starting point is 00:47:38 say one thing in particular that I learned as a young naval officer. And I'll just summarize it this way. Always seek to be part of the solution. And I have to credit the first few commanding officers I had with showing me the importance of this and not only showing me, but helping me develop this ability as a young officer. I had one commanding officer in particular who made it clear.

Starting point is 00:48:05 Like it's great for you to figure out that there's a particular issue, but it is not acceptable for you to just come to my office and point it out to me. I'm a very busy person. I need you to come to my office also with one or more ways that we can deal with this issue. That's what's expected of you. When I was teaching leadership, I also taught physics as well, second class leadership. I made this point regularly to the midshipment because life is a mid, you tend to complain a lot.

Starting point is 00:48:38 Junior officers as well, it's easy to find issue with a lot of what's going on around you, but I used to say to those mids, look I'm going to say this again and again and again until you all grasp this, because this is something I learned as a J.O. It is not acceptable to criticize what's going on over in Bankraft Hall or throughout the rest of the academy. You don't earn the right to criticize this issue until you are willing to spend some time to come up with a way to fix it. And I remember the first couple of times I said that

Starting point is 00:49:10 to them, they were kind of like, what? And then slowly it dawned on them. You're right. It's not acceptable for us to sit here and criticize. That's easy. What's hard and what our senior officers are grappling with because it's hard is an effective way to solve this problem. So I've kind of condensed it down to this.

Starting point is 00:49:33 Be part of the solution. Figure out how to be part of the solution. And is there a leadership style that you think serves a leader more than others? What's your thoughts on that? I think you have to know the people that you're leading and I think you have to have the ability to assess the situation to see what's gonna be more effective. I think if you're gonna be a good leader,

Starting point is 00:49:53 you can't just stick with one sought style. You have to be able to adapt to the situation you're in. Sometimes you need to be that supportive listening ear, you go up and put your arm around some body and say, hey, I'm here for you. I know you're struggling right now. Let's just go off and talk. Sometimes you got to maybe be out of character and come in and just drop the bombshell.

Starting point is 00:50:18 I had to do that a couple times as a midshim. And I was not a yell or an screamer, but there were a couple times where I knew I had to get the attention of the people that I was responsible for. So I came in and then very uncharacteristically yelled at them. Now I got their attention and then we had a conversation. I did that as a J.O. one time where I had to get the attention of my detachment because they were getting a little bit complacent. So along with the chief, we came in in a very dramatic fashion and we got everybody's attention. So I think you're going to be an effective leader. You have to understand that particular situations are going to require you to respond in a different way. So you can't just

Starting point is 00:50:58 do the same thing day in and day out. Oh, I think that's very true. One thing that I often reflect on is I have a 23-year-old who graduated college a couple years ago and I have a high school student and I often try to self-reflect myself when I was their age, especially my son, what advice I would give them. If you were going to give yourself advice from when you were in your early-to-mid 20s, would you change anything? Or is there something that you would advise yourself to do that you didn't? Oh, that's a long time ago. For me too, Wendy. Yeah, I think it would have been good at a younger age to realize it's okay to continue to ask for help,

Starting point is 00:51:42 ask for advice. I think particularly in today's society, it's too easy for people to slip into the mindset of, if I'm not able to do it all in my own, then while I'm just not worth anything, because that's what America expects in me. I've got to pull myself up by my bootstraps, and that's just such a false narrative. And I wish somebody had said that to me right after graduation.

Starting point is 00:52:04 If I look, your junior officer, nobody expects you to know everything and to do everything right. Be more vulnerable and be willing to go up to the your department head. Even if you're not a division officer at this point because you're just a brand new incident, go to the more senior and lieutenant, ask them for advice, pick their brain. You know, what experiences did you go through that all probably go through? How did you handle that situation? I wish I'd had an opportunity or made the opportunity to have more of those conversations

Starting point is 00:52:33 when I was a young officer. Yes, I kind of agree with you more. I think sometimes it's difficult to want to ask for help. It's difficult because many times you're having to make yourself become vulnerable because you're admitting you might not know how to do something as well as someone else or you're admitting a deficiency, but it makes you so much stronger in the way that that other person looks

Starting point is 00:52:56 at you, the fact that you're willing to ask for help, but then you got to apply it. Because the person knows at your core you want to get better. So you're here because you want to better understand the responsibilities of your job. You want to acquire those skills and the knowledge that'll allow you to do your job more effectively, but you're basically asking these questions because you care about doing a good job. Yeah, I remember it's been many years ago.

Starting point is 00:53:25 I took over a department when I joined Loes Home Improvement. And when I took over this department, they had the lowest employee engagement scores in the entire company. The company at that time had 300,000 employees. And as I got to know them, I started to ask more and more questions. What would you do differently? How would you address this situation?

Starting point is 00:53:49 What are your ideas on what we need to fix? And one of the most fundamental things that feedback that came back to me was, I was the first leader who would ever ask them that question and had ever empowered them to help come up with the solution. So I think what you were saying earlier is so important if you're a leader is to seek that complete full cycle of communication

Starting point is 00:54:15 because it's gonna make you a more authentic leader. You're going to hear firsthand from people who, you know, in this case, many of them had been living it for a decade. And I think sometimes the immediate thing we want to do is jump into a situation without completely understanding the path that got them to where they are, because sometimes unraveling it is much more complex than meets the eyes. Well, I think unfortunately in American society, action is described as doing, being physical, being up and running about,

Starting point is 00:54:48 and actively engaging people in conversation, but action is also sitting there initially and trying to get your arms around what's going on. Action, research is action. You are taking steps to define the boundaries of the issue that you have to deal with. You're trying to understand just how complex it is. Half-gains a great situation.

Starting point is 00:55:09 Everybody wants to simplify it. Incredibly complex problem. And you can't just rush in and take a series of steps. You're just likely going to make it worse. So I think in America in particular, we have to understand. And I go back to the comments I made about NASA. Sitting at a table talking with people, trying

Starting point is 00:55:27 to get your arms around the issue, you are taking action. It's just not as visible as other steps that you can take. But nevertheless, it is still action. You are still working to address the issue. You're just being more thoughtful and deliberate about it, which very likely means ultimately, you're gonna be much more successful in finding a way to resolve the problem.

Starting point is 00:55:52 Absolutely, I'm gonna set it any better myself. Well, I had one last question for you, and that is, I have read a lot about what the future off-earth exploration and other things may be. Jeff Bezos is talking about how he would like to do manufacturing in space in the future and you could actually see delivery, pinpoint delivery happening from there, people doing manufacturing and other things up on the moon. Do you think those are real possibilities and if so, what kind of time horizon are we looking at? Is this decades and decades away or is it closer than that?

Starting point is 00:56:31 I think it depends on what particular type of manufacturing you might be talking about for the commercial companies. It all boils down to whether or not there's going to be an economy. Can you make money? So NASA has taken the initial steps to provide that economy for them by saying, all right, companies, we are going to allow you to provide services to NASA. You can deliver cargo of the International Space Station. You can deliver crew. Eventually, they may be delivering cargo to the moon.

Starting point is 00:57:00 So NASA is trying to help create that space-based economy, but it's really going to boil down to manufacturing fiber optic cables in space. Can you do it in a way that's going to make money? To me, that's the big unknown. So, it's really hard to predict just how fast all of this may play out. We are proving, onboard the International Space Station, that yes, the laws of physics do allow you, even in the absence of the polar gravity, to manufacture a handful of items. But can you do it affordably? And that's really going to be the challenge for these companies.

Starting point is 00:57:37 How all that works out? I mean, it's hard to predict. I don't have a background in business. But I think everybody agrees in this, urgent galactic, blue origin, can you be successful at flying people on sub-war full flights? It's all depends on, you know, five, 10 years down the road,

Starting point is 00:57:55 if you still have people who are willing to pay the price of the ticket. So that's their challenge. Can you make it affordable? Can you make money off of it? And one follow up to that, how do you think if us and China are running two different programs that the first person or first country that gets to Mars?

Starting point is 00:58:17 Do you think one country could have influence over the other by arriving first, where one claims jurisdiction for it, or do you think it's far less complex than that? Yeah, I would say anything when you're dealing with another country is going to become complex. I would like to think that the treaties that are in place, the treaty about outer space would govern some behavior. Landing, let's not make this trivial. We know how to lighten something about the size of a car on Mars.

Starting point is 00:58:46 We've been able to do that successfully. One of the most challenging things any nation is going to have to figure out, any program found for Mars is going to have to figure out is how to do that entry-discent landing activity with much larger amounts of mass. That's not trivial. So I would like to think that eventually anybody

Starting point is 00:59:07 has the ability to land on Mars is not going to be in direct competition with one another because they realize just how profoundly hard it is to do that and that there would be a greater sense of cooperation. But the world could change a lot between now and when that actually happens. So I think we'll just have to wait and see.

Starting point is 00:59:23 Yes. Well Wendy, thank you so much for joining the podcast today, such a delight to get to talk to you again. Likewise, thanks for the opportunity, John. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and our desire to provide you with entertaining content that allows you to learn and relate, and most importantly, take these lessons on so that you two can dream the dream is when you talked about today. If there's a guest or a message that you would like to hear please DM me on Instagram and John Armiles and if you haven't checked it out yet please subscribe to our YouTube channel which is

Starting point is 01:00:02 also John Armiles and I mentioned a couple other episodes today. One was with former Chief Astornot and Navy Seal Christ Cassidy, where we discussed the importance of being in the moment. I also discussed the interview I did with Astornot K. LeBaron, who was going up on the ISS in October. We also have some other great episodes coming up, including one with Navy SEAL Commander Mark Devine, NASCAR, Racer, Jesse Weegee, Creative Michelle Royal, and Michelle Royal, who we'll talk about, how she took her creativity and is now helping so many companies create strategic

Starting point is 01:00:47 creativity in their organizations as well. So thankful for all of you tuning in, weekend, and week out. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for joining us. The purpose of our show is to make Passion Go viral. And we do that by sharing with you the knowledge and skills that you need to unlock your hidden potential. If you want to hear more please subscribe to the Passion Start Podcast on Spotify, iTunes, Stitcher or wherever you listen to your podcast ad. And if you absolutely love this episode we'd appreciate a five star rating on iTunes and you sharing it with three of your most

Starting point is 01:01:25 growth-minded friends so they can post it as well to their social accounts and help us grow our passion start community. If you'd like to learn more about the show and our mission, you can go to passionstruck.com where you can sign up for our newsletter, look at our tools, and also download the show notes for today's episode. Additionally, you can listen to us every Tuesday and Friday for even more inspiring content. And remember, make a choice, work hard, and step into your sharp edges. Thank you again for joining us. you

Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Permit Yourself to Dream the Dream w/ Former Astronaut Wendy Lawrence EP 62

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