Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Rabbi Avremi Zippel on How You Find Purpose in Your Pain EP 175

Starting point is 00:00:00 Coming up next on the Passion Struck Podcast. All of the derision and self-loathing that we expose ourselves to we're almost expecting the world to respond with that in kind. Most survivors go through this process where they tell one or two or five people and they experience such empathy and such love and such care, which is really a shock to the system because we've never afforded ourselves at grace. We've never afford ourselves that acceptance and that love. Welcome to PassionStruct.

Starting point is 00:00:31 Hi, I'm your host, John Armiles. And on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips, and guidance of the world's most inspiring people and turn their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you. Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself. If you're new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays. We have long form interviews the rest

Starting point is 00:00:58 of the week with guest-ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries, and athletes. Now, let's go out there and become PassionStruck. Hello everyone, and welcome back to episode 175 of PassionStruck. Recently rated by FeedSpot is one of the top 40 most inspirational podcasts in the world. And thank you to each and every one of you who comes back weekly to listen and learn, had a live better, be better, and impact the world. If you're new to the show, thank you so much for being here, or you would like to share

Starting point is 00:01:33 this with a friend or family member, and we so appreciate it when you do that. We now have episode starter packs, which are collections of our fans' favorite episodes that we organize by topic to give any new listener a great way to get acquainted to everything We do here on the show just go to passionstruck.com slash starter packs to get started and in case you missed my episodes from earlier in the week They included my interview with Dr. Valerie Young who's the co-founder of the imposter syndrome Institute and the foremost expert in the world on the topic. I also interviewed Dr. Cara Fitzgerald yesterday and Cara came out with a groundbreaking book called Younger You, where she gives her secrets for how you can reverse your biological age

Starting point is 00:02:16 and lengthen your health span. An episode you absolutely don't want to miss. And my solo episode last week in caseaching Mistate was on how do you approach healthfully recovery from abuse or trauma, which is something that leads us into today's episode. A few weeks ago I aired an interview with Kara Robinson Chamberlain, who is the survivor of a kidnapping by a serial killer. Following that interview, we received numerous emails and reach out across both the podcast and our social media channels. That led to the solo episode that I did last week, and also I received a note from today's guest, requesting to share his story on the PassionStruck podcast to bring more awareness to the topic

Starting point is 00:02:58 of childhood abuse. I decided to replace my typical momentum Friday episode with this interview. Now, let's talk about today's guests. Rabbi Evremi Zippel is the program director at the Havad-Lupovic of Utah. Evremi and his wife, Shayna, founded Young Jewish Professionals of Utah, which has since grown to become the most prominent community of its kind in the state. In 2019, Evremi testified publicly about the decade of abuse he suffered at the hands of a family caregiver as part of the criminal proceedings against her. Leave to be the first Orthodox Rabbi to speak out on the matter.

Starting point is 00:03:35 It has sparked a career in the advocacy space for Evremi, and he has become a sought-after speaker and mentor to communities around the world grappling with this topic among other health-related issues. In our interview, we discuss Evremi's childhood and growing up in an Orthodox Jewish family where he was homeschooled. How his caretaker entered his life and ultimately altered it forever. Evremi discusses when he was in his early 20s watching law and Order where he first realized that he was a victim of child sexual abuse. We discuss how Everemi burying it for so many years ultimately had devastating effects on his life. We then turned to the healing journey that he has been on. How we reported the incident to the police, the eventual trial, and what happened along with that trial, as well as

Starting point is 00:04:22 its ultimate verdict. We examine how his life has changed since he became public with this incident and his advice to others on how you overcome abuse and trauma and do it in a healthy way. I did want the audience to know that there is material in this episode that could be disturbing to some people and their children if they're in the background while they're listening to this. Thank you for choosing Passion Struck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life. Now, let that journey begin. [♪ Music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in you for being here. Well, thank you so much, John.

Starting point is 00:05:05 It's really an honor to be with you, and I'm looking forward to an exciting conversation. Well, I thought maybe a good place for the audience to get introduced to you because we are gonna be talking somewhat about your childhood is, I read somewhere that when you were growing up, your parents described you as the perfect child,

Starting point is 00:05:21 and you even learned English and Hebrew by the time you were four. Can you talk a little bit about the upbringing you have and what it was like being raised in the Orthodox religion? Well, whilst I appreciate the compliments and the plighted tubes that I will qualify them for your listeners for a moment, I think the context of the four-year-old common is that I could read Hebrew and English, or not speak Hebrew and English. That would be quite the accomplishment, but yeah, I don't know that it was that profound.

Starting point is 00:05:47 And the perfect child common maybe we'll get into in a moment. So I was raised in Salt Lake City, Utah, where I am fortunate enough to raise my own family now. My parents moved out here in the summer of 1992, weeks before my first birthday, to start a synagogue here in Salt Lake City, our family belongs to the Habbad Movement, the world's largest Jewish outreach movement. And in 1992, the organization wanted a post-ing full-time in Salt Lake City,

Starting point is 00:06:11 and some of the parents were the ones who were tasked with bringing Habbad's presence to Utah and opening a synagogue and working with and engaging with the community. And so it wasn't that sort of environment that I was raised, which is definitely unique. I think that being raised as an observant Jew in Salt Lake City is kind of a unique experience in any context and specifically growing up in the rabbis household being the son of a rabbi. I think that because of the unique circumstances given the household and the environment that we were being raised in, there were experiences, let's say, that your average child has

Starting point is 00:06:44 that we didn't have for starters. We were homeschooled There's no Jewish day school back in the day in Salt Lake City when we were being raised Thank God there is now and so we know we were homeschooled and now that in 2022 the term homeschool has a number of different interpretations given COVID and zoom and you know that we were quite Actually literally homeschool a classroom which was an old bedroom in our home and my mom taught us and it was me and my siblings. That was it. But it was a life of service. It was a life of growing up committed

Starting point is 00:07:10 to certain values and ideals and living a lifestyle where those values and ideals really become part and parcel of who you are and what you're about and what you're after. And it was unique. It was unique for sure. That life of commitment to a faith, to a calling which does put you in

Starting point is 00:07:25 a certain sense in the minority here in Salt Lake. Growing up with neighbors and friends, the kids why I played basketball with, who were members of the LDS church was an experience unto itself. I have long said the best neighbors that you could ever ask for. I think every kid goes through their child, but to them it seems perfectly natural. And then hindsight is 2020 and it gives you the ability to look back to that gosh that was really sort of unusual. But in the moment it felt like it was our childhood. You don't get to pick your childhood and it is what happened and it was what happened and we were we were grateful for it. Yeah, and I understand you grew up with five other siblings.

Starting point is 00:07:59 From the oldest of six, yes. Yes, I have the same dynamic. I'm the oldest of three. Yeah. Still, you're the one who gets the responsibility and you're kind of the trial and error, baby. All of the guts, none of the glory is there. I think a wise man wants to talk about being the oldest man, yes. Well, if a listener is not familiar with the Jewish religion and they know what a synagogue is,

Starting point is 00:08:24 how is a Habbad different from that and what's the difference in each of their missions? It's a fantastic question. So what sets Habbad apart and what really makes Habbad unique within the context of wider American jury? Habbad is almost exclusively an outreach based model. You'll have just an H your synagogue in whatever city or community is around the country, and they are a religious institution. By and large, they'll have membership.

Starting point is 00:08:50 They will encourage people who want to come and worship or serve there, or do whatever it is that they do to come by and pay a do every year and be a part of that environment, be a part of that community. And many instances in a God is well sit by as churches and mosques and many community organizations do and we'll wait for folks to come and sign up and become part of their mission. Khabad, one of the reasons that it is so unique is that it is this outreach-based model.

Starting point is 00:09:13 So khawat is going to come to a town and khabad is going to go out there and say, all right, we know who in this town already belongs to a synagogue and considers themselves to be practicing to a certain extent. Let's find everybody else. There's gotta be dozens and hundreds of thousands of Jews living in any town across the United States, across the world, that is just full of Jews that aren't yet attending their local synagogue or perhaps looking for something else yet found an environment that speaks of them. We're gonna go out there and we're gonna find them in the places that you least expect. And so that's what Habbad does in thousands of cities around the country and thousands of cities around the world. Is it moves into a town and it helps take Jews from all walks of life across the spectrum of religious observance

Starting point is 00:09:54 and helps expose them to the beauty and the profound meaning of their heritage and helps them find a way to make that heritage more applicable and more meaningful in their daily life and brings Jews just a little bit closer to Judaism. I think if you really boil it down to its core, that really is the mission is one step at a time. What we'd like to refer to as one mitzvah, one good deed, one commandment at a time, instead of looking at Judaism as this kind of binary wholesale, either you're observant

Starting point is 00:10:20 or you're not observant, either you're with the program or you're off the wagon to really look at Judaism as a step-by-step approach and embracing and approaching one more good deed at a time. Well, thank you for that explanation. I think that will help clarify some things for some of the listeners who might not be aware of the difference, so I appreciate you doing that. Now, I understand growing up in Salt Lake City, eventually as you got older, a caretaker was introduced into your household. How did that unfold? So, going back to the point that we were homeschooled.

Starting point is 00:10:52 My dad, obviously, his rabbi was a rabbi. He was off out of the house every day doing whatever it is that rabbi's doing. As I've come to learn myself, it is a pretty multifaceted job. There is dozens and dozens of hats that you can wear in a daily basis. He's off wearing those hats. And my mom was our primary teacher within the homeschooling framework. And as a result, there were a lot of us at home.

Starting point is 00:11:10 We were all at home all day. And that was school that was home, that one building, that one structure had a lot of different uses that it was put towards. And so there was a need as my mom was teaching some of us for another adult to be around to take care of the others and in the summer of 1998 My youngest brother who's number five in the family. So the second youngest kid in the family was on the way. There were going to be five kids and I was turning seven and I was the oldest who were bunch pretty close together.

Starting point is 00:11:40 So there was a need for outside help. There was a need for someone to come in and just be of service to my mom, help out around the household. My parents put out a bunch of feelers in the community and ask for referrals and any ideas that anybody may have had. And that's somebody hired. Someone came highly recommended from other families in the community and she became part of the family. As that dynamic unfolded,

Starting point is 00:12:03 your parents treated her kind of like they were an integral part of the family. They had this utmost trust in her. They depended on her. So she was really a motherly fixture for you outside your parents in this house and someone who commanded a lot of authority over you. Yes, I mean the short answer to all of your questions is yes. She was someone who was given every level of trust and responsibility and access to a different sense in the household. When retelling this story and coming upon this part of this story, I always feel it's so vital to not entitle myself

Starting point is 00:12:35 to any sort of revisionist history. There were red flags right away. She was super creepy. Like, none of that is true. And I'd be lying if I said any of that. She was embraced warmly by us and she embraced us as her own. And she quite literally became part of the family. She was someone who was in the house Monday through Friday and 9 to 5 40 hours a week. That she was a very, very integral part of our lives. And we trusted her for that. We loved her for that. And I wouldn't say there was anything galering that was coming down the bike. I think, glaring that was coming down the bike. When the relationship started to change, was this a gradual change that started to happen

Starting point is 00:13:10 and the relationship she was having with you, or did it kind of happen all of a sudden? So I loved the way you put that question, John. I think it provides such valuable perspective for any parent or any adult who really think about this issue. Today, experts in child psychology, experts in child safety talk a lot about grooming, and I know that sadly, really sadly, we live in a world where that is a word that is so commonly being thrown around right now.

Starting point is 00:13:38 In any time, there's a political movement of any nature that you disagree with. One of the terms that we very quickly just banter about is grooming. They are grooming, no, they are grooming, no, we're grooming and they are grooming. And I think that there's a lot of misunderstanding around grooming. I think that for generations, we were trained to believe that what grooming is,

Starting point is 00:13:55 grooming is the stranger with a lollipop. So if you send your child to the playground and there's a kind of creepy old guy there with a bunch of lollipops and he's offering candy to kids for free. That is grumpy So we tell our children do not under any circumstances take the candy from the stranger do not take the lollipop That is grooming. I think as we really delve into it We need to understand that grooming is any sort of behavior that separates and isolates a child

Starting point is 00:14:22 From their naturally given support structures So if you have an adult in a child's life who creates any form of separation between the child and their parents, between the child and their siblings, by something as a knock you with just telling them a secret, I'm going to tell you about a birthday party that we're planning or something which is going to stay between me and you, and the adult uses that really kind of inescapity to gauge whether the child will keep that adult secret that right there is grooming. And so I think that looking back,

Starting point is 00:14:54 as I think about the incidents that really proceeded where we're a real red line that was crossed, there were definitely behaviors of grooming that our caregiver began to inflow with me in terms of putting out little secrets out there. Some sort of gray area behaviors that weren't glaringly wrong, but they were kind of wrong and to see what putting a child in those sorts of environments does for the child. Do they go off and tell, do they have the ability to keep it quiet? Those are grooming tactics.

Starting point is 00:15:23 That is how you eventually cut a child off from the support systems. And so, absolutely, it was a slow and gradual buildup. Don't just show up when warning and decide to harm a kid. It really does happen against the backdrop of multiple incidents that lead up to it. We'll be right back to my interview with Rabbi of Remy Zippel. A lot of people dream of having their own business.

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Starting point is 00:16:47 happier team. So go to gusto.com slash passion struck for your first three months free. That's G-U-S-T-O.com slash passion struck. Thank you for supporting those who support the show and make it happen for listeners for free. And all those discount codes can be so difficult to remember. So we put them in one convenient place at passionstruck.com slash deals. Now, back to my interview with Rabbi Evremi Zippel. Yes, we're growing up in a Catholic household where my grandparents would go to church every single day. We came up acknowledging the priests that were in our community as these utmost figureheads of our society in the church, which I'm sure being a rabbi carries much of the same thing

Starting point is 00:17:35 in the Jewish religion. As I think back about what's happened with the Catholic church and how many priests there have been who have abused boys along the way, there definitely is that same sense of grooming where you have this trust figure who everyone in the congregation holds to this incredibly high standard that when these things start happening, you as especially as a child victim

Starting point is 00:17:59 don't really even recognize that they're happening because you might even feel this person is taking special attention to me, they see that I'm might even feel this person is taking special attention to me. They see that I'm different. They see that I'm special, things like that. And so as a youngster, you're probably not even comprehending what's going on. And I'm sure it was the same situation that you were going through. Yeah, absolutely. So for me, it wasn't necessarily so much the special attention, but for me, I really relate to what you said about having an environment

Starting point is 00:18:29 where certain people are beyond reproach. And I think that a child in that sort of environment is so programmed and it's so trained to think that, well, okay, this person is doing something of that behavior, seems a little sketchy, but I know that this person cannot be involved in sketchy behavior. What's so, they are just on a pedestal.

Starting point is 00:18:49 So if they can be involved in sketchy behavior, but unequivocally this behavior is sketchy, I suppose that the burden lays with me because they're beyond reproach and they can't be caught up in any sort of untoward business. And so the problem must really lie with me. And so once our caregiver began to sexually abuse me, that was really sort of the thought process

Starting point is 00:19:11 that went on just internalizing and swallowing all of that shame and going down that sort of road of, well, OK, there's a problem here. And this is our caregiver. This is a trust in person in our lives, is someone who's just given the highest levels of clearance in our household, so they can't be doing something wrong. They don't do wrong things.

Starting point is 00:19:29 They're a trusted adult. So if there is something wrong that's going on and it's not on them, then really the only option left is that it's on me. I think it's that environment and that cycle of shame that takes that child and just throws it back into it head first and allows them to be abused and again and again and again because they lack the wherewithal to really understand the roles and the breach of trust that's going on over here and then how to deal with all of that very very very intense emotion. Yeah, so I think for the listeners probably good to explain to them that there are different

Starting point is 00:20:02 types of abuse. There's sexual abuse. there's physical abuse, there's emotional abuse, and one of the most common abuses is neglect. I thought it might be good to give the listeners some statistics of how common this is because as I started to do some research on it, it's estimated that one out of four girls and one out of six boys will be molested in their lifetime and according to the World Health Organization one in five women and one in 13 men report having been sexually abused as a child ages 0 to 17. So this is far more common than the people who come forward and talk about it make it seem and So that's one of the reasons I think it's so important to share your story and some of the others that I've shared on this podcast to bring this awareness to people.

Starting point is 00:20:53 Throughout our discussion, we're going to talk about how you healed through this, but it took a long time. You know, it did take a long time. It took a very long time. I'll jump to the end of the story, but I appreciate you bringing up those statistics. And they are as intense as you make them sound. And I think once you really kind of get down into those stats,

Starting point is 00:21:12 you really begin to allow the magnitude of those numbers to wash over you. And I think that the way we're going to approach this as a society and the way we're going to deal with this and really begin to understand this, which I think is the only way to make those numbers really start to drastically drop is to have an understanding about how common it is and what it means to be a survivor and what it means for our children or people we know to be survivors should we understand that is inevitably part of their

Starting point is 00:21:39 lives. I often think back to fascinating and it'll happen my grandmother. And so my dad's mom, blessed memory, came up with what she was. She was from Europe. She lived in Europe until her final days. And when she was growing up 80 years ago, in Europe, to be left handed was a horrible blemish, as it were. If you showed up in school and you had tendencies to use your left hand, they would tie your left hand behind your back to teach you, to train you inevitably to write with your right hand, because lefties were considered, I don't know, just a problem. So my brother was born number three in the family and we found that turned out he was a lefty. And so everyone's trying to find out where does he have any sort of left handed tendencies from. So my mom calls her mother and my grandma and says, you know, hey, I know the family left hand, we found out my son is left handed, so random. And my grandma says,

Starting point is 00:22:22 no, no, no one's left handed. I mean, aside from my son, who's left handed, but no one is left handed, and my granddaughter is left handed. But no one is left handed. And kind of the message that she gives off is being left handed, no bueno, no one is left. I mean, my son and my granddaughter, but we don't talk about that. There's a prosecutor that I know really, really well,

Starting point is 00:22:39 who tells it in the following words, he says, everyone thinks that lawyers are crooks, aside for the one lawyer they know. You know, everyone would kind of get in that position of all lawyers or bad people aside from my cousin. Such a good dude helps people and is straightforward and he's honest and he's not like all the other lawyers. And so I think that if we as a society think about this issue differently, no one I know has survived sexual abuse. No one I know would put themselves in that sort of situation. It would be susceptible to that sort of a you kidding. What does that say about the people I know if they've been through child sexual abuse?

Starting point is 00:23:13 Aside for this one guy, I know who's a darling guy and like it wasn't his fault. And we think about it the same way. We play such a stigma around the issue. And we pardon those that are closest to us in our own minds. We almost give them a pass. They're not lumped in with everybody else that we wouldn't even want to begin to talk about. I think that's where the change is.

Starting point is 00:23:32 Yes, there are people out there that are sexually abused. It doesn't mean anything negative about that. They're upbringing about the choices they've made about who they want to be as adults. And if we share that paradigm shift with young people, with the children that may be going through this now, we give them the ability to come forward and step forward and embrace who they are in their true sense. And they don't have to go through years of trauma where they're grappling with and coping with that secret.

Starting point is 00:23:58 If we change the way we all think about it, we're going to make the world so much of a better place for those that's so desperately needed. Yes, and I think that's why it's so important to really not do this abuse blaming, which seems to, at times, go ramp it that people want to blame the victim instead of the abuser for the things that happen. And I know for people who have been abused, it's also an issue because they put self blame on themselves. Did you ever feel that as this was transpiring or afterwards? I mean, I carried around blame for almost two decades until I came forward.

Starting point is 00:24:36 We know it's been well documented that survivors of child sexual abuse are often referred to as the loneliest people in the world. The amount of pain and blame and guilt that they carry on themselves is almost unspeakable, the amount that they have to cope with. And as a result of that, they find more comfort in silence and in solace because the way we have almost trained ourselves to perceive this issue in our own minds is how we expect the world around us to perceive the issue as well.

Starting point is 00:25:08 In the event that we are tempted to come forward, all of the derision and self-loathing that we expose ourselves to, we're almost expecting the world to respond with that in kind. And I think from most survivors, go through this process where they tell one or two or five people and they experience Such empathy and such love and such care Which is really a shock to the system because we've never afforded ourselves that grace We've never afford ourselves that acceptance and that love and when we go through that Living in a headspace as we do where we expect the whole world to react a certain way and they don't. That's for a lot of us the beginning of the healing process is starting to imagine and

Starting point is 00:25:50 entertain the thought of what the world around us would look like. That's the response that we were going to get. But I think that's what makes these situations really profoundly unique. You had a friend who was mugged one night in an alleyway. This morning someone came over to our synagogue and they run a business down the block and tried afternoon and broad daylight. Someone came by, took a rock, smashed the window of a car and stole electronics that were in a bag under a seat.

Starting point is 00:26:14 They had some sort of tracking device to figure out where there is Apple products and they stole an iPad from that person's car. No one in the world is gonna go to that to the owner of the car or the owner of the iPad and be like, well, you're an idiot, but you should not have left that in a bag under the seat. Like, you took every possible precaution.

Starting point is 00:26:30 You have someone who's a victim of aggravated assault of robbery. No one's going to be like, well, that's what happens when you walk outside, when it's dark or light, you'll get robbed. And yet, we live in a world where it's so commonplace for survivors of sexual abuse and sexual assault to take so much blame on themselves. And it is so much of a reflection of the world we live in. And I think that's really where the work needs to get done, is to change that paradigm for survivors themselves and for the world around them to allow them to be seen by the world around them. And most importantly, by themselves for the the beautiful posts and creatures they are. Yes, well, thank you for that. And I think it's such an important point.

Starting point is 00:27:10 Now, this abuse went on for quite a long time. And after you turned 13, you moved out of this relationship that you had and the same way it was happening because you were then out of the house. You end up going to Europe, you end up traveling a lot. But I understand when you were now almost 20 and this started happening when you were eight, you happen to be watching law and order and it was through that experience that you first realized that you had been abused. Can you talk about that and why it happened through that? It's important, I think, for context. To note, I was a pretty worldly kid growing up.

Starting point is 00:27:54 We were homeschooled from about 9 a.m. to 1 p.m. A little bit of time on my hands as a kid. I used to read the paper cover to cover every day, sports section, and then local news and international news. From a young age, I remember being aware of the reality that there's something called sexual abuse. There's a reality in this world that we live in, of people who harm children for sexual purposes.

Starting point is 00:28:14 In 2002, just after the Olympics were here, Elizabeth Smart was taken from her bed from story that many of your listeners may be familiar with. Elizabeth Smart was raised seven minutes from where I was raised. This happened quite literally in our backyard. And this is the story that the parents tell you never to believe. It's never gonna happen that a bad man's gonna come into your house in the middle of the night

Starting point is 00:28:32 and take kids out of their bed, the middle of the bed categorically does not happen. In the world that we live in, you're being ridiculous, go back to sleep. And it happened in my backyard when I was a kid, bad man went into someone's house in the middle of the night with a big knife and took someone out of their bed.

Starting point is 00:28:45 So I live in a world where the reality of people who caused harm to children was a present one. And yet I never conceived it possible that those same words, that those same terms could be used about my life. For a number of reasons. For a number of reasons. Number one, I was a guy and the person that was doing this to me was a woman and in my mind it was almost guaranteed that any sort of sexual violence was pretty much man to woman, not the other way around. Number two, the person that was doing this to me

Starting point is 00:29:14 was not a scary homeless man with a knife like Brian David and Mitchell was who took a bus of a smart out of her bed. She was our caregiver, she was a nanny, she loved her, we trusted her, so that didn't work. And most importantly, number three, there was no form of coercion in my story. There was never a moment where I yelled or I protested or I called for help or to be totally frank with you John, there was never a moment where I said stop. Or I said no.

Starting point is 00:29:40 There was never a moment where I was threatened. And so for me, these are all kind of the bare minimums that you got to check those boxes to qualify for sexual abuse. And in this line order episode, when I was 20, I had broke my leg, I was stuck in bed for three weeks after knee surgery. And so I was binge watching. We got to pass the time somehow. I'd always loved True Crime TV or procedural TV.

Starting point is 00:30:02 And watching this episode about this young man who's got a lot of issues in life. And there's this conversation in which his mom discloses to the police that this young boy had been sexually abused by his nanny, or ungun, and for me, kind of the switch goes off and you think to yourself, is that even possible? Is it possible in order to end the day?

Starting point is 00:30:23 It's fiction, it's TV, it's not real life stories. Is it actually possible that a young boy can be sexually abused by a caregiver, by a nanny, and like that actually checks the box of sexual abuse? And I had no idea. It planted a seed that I was going to let ferment for a while, and it took a number of years until I walked into a therapist's office and blurred it out the question and wanted to find out if that was really what had happened to me or not. Well, I want to get to that in a second.

Starting point is 00:30:51 The first question I wanted to ask before that is, in case someone's listening here and something like this has unfortunately happened to them and they're trying to area, which I think is one of the most common things that people try to do is they're afraid to bury it, which I think is one of the most common things that people try to do is they're afraid to tell people about it, they feel ashamed about it, everything else. Here you are burying it, and at this point you've been burying it for 12 years, I'm sure the burying processes we're going to talk about extended beyond that, but by the fact that you were burying it and at that point not dealing with it, what were the consequences that have brought upon you?

Starting point is 00:31:29 I like the way you put that. If you try and bury living item, it'll only fight back stronger. If you spend so much of your day and so much of your time and so much of your energy trying not to think about a traumatic event in your life, odds are it's only going to punch above its weight and it's only going to want to assert its presence in your life even more. So not thinking about it and varying it as you so correctly, it forced me to grapple with it every single day because every single day I was making the choice that I'm not going to think about it. I'm not going to let it affect me. And I would just move on with life. If I would just find ulterior fixes to an interior problem, I'll just be so much better off for it. The

Starting point is 00:32:19 more I went down that road, the worse I felt. And the more I tried to just shovel it under 50 feet of dirt, the more it kept popping, it's had up and shouting for a place in my life. And so I think this implies to any sort of traumatic episode that there is something bubbling beneath the surface, the way to treat it is not to drown it. It's to pull it out, it's to take it into the light, it's to process it, it's understand it, it's to figure out how it can be treated and why it needs to be treated and what it should be treated with, but ignoring it and burying it is certainly not the way to go.

Starting point is 00:33:00 Yes, and I just wanted to talk about two other guests I've had on recently to highlight this point because I think a lot of times people hear a story like yours and say why did he wait so long to deal with this or acknowledge it and as you're well aware, I recently had Kara Robinson, chairman Lee and on the podcast who was kidnapped by a serial killer when she was 15 podcast, who was kidnapped by a serial killer when she was 15, but she's now in her mid-30s and she's finally telling her story and putting it public. In our discussion, I remember she told me that for the longest time she wanted to feel

Starting point is 00:33:36 like she was so strong, like she could get through this on her own and that strength turned out to be a huge weakness because what happened around her was everything else started to fall apart. She was having anger issues, she was becoming depressed, she was becoming emotionally numb, etc. And then I also had a lady named Carrington Smith who was on the podcast who was emotionally abused and neglected by her parents for most of her childhood, raped when she was in college. And again, it took her about two decades to kind of process this. And she told me that inside she felt like she was a monster and didn't know how to do

Starting point is 00:34:19 with these things because she had blamed herself for everything that had happened. So I think it's important for people to realize trauma is different for every single person and it your healing process is different for every person. But to your point, if you don't focus on it, you're never going to heal on those stuck points will only get worse over time. Do you think that's accurate? I think that's immensely accurate. Someone who's sad on that sort of information for a long time. I understand the desire to do that. I understand the impetus to do that. I understand why people do that. The remarkable thing is we stay silent because we're in pain. Yet the notion of speaking

Starting point is 00:35:04 aloud about those issues seems somehow more painful, which is pretty remarkable because we're in a lot of pain when we're silent. And on one hand, I can completely understand the impulse and the inclination and the desire to keep it quiet. And on the other hand, I feel fortunate enough to be on the other side and to realize the value of sharing, the value of opening up to one person at a time. And I'm not speaking about shouting your story from the rooftops at this point, but going to seek professional help. For me, I live in a community where our community's mental health needs are something we're still learning about. And as such, there's a tremendous stigma around the word therapy. No one is really quite sure what therapy is, why therapy is helpful. And a lot of times I find it easiest to refer

Starting point is 00:35:51 to it instead of go to therapy, instead I frame it as go get some sort of professional help. If you are in a situation which seems so daunting and so overwhelming. And it is controlling and crippling in many instances, every facet of your life. What you should want to do is go and speak to someone who is outside the situation, who is in licensed, professional, who can look at your situation and say, hey, it seems like these events from way back when

Starting point is 00:36:19 are really, really bothering you. And they're really refusing to go away. And as a result of that, as you go through life with life's regular hiccups and life's regular speed bumps, that many other people seem to not get as bogged down by it's really affecting you and you're really struggling through those moments. Let's unpack together why it's not just that moment for you in that instant, but it's that moment viewed on the backdrop of a lifetime of your experience.

Starting point is 00:36:47 And so I think that's what's key is getting that sort of professional help, which allows you to really dig deep and dive down to understand what it is that you have been through. For me, getting that sort of professional help gave me the opportunity to understand what had really happened to me and why that impacts me so profoundly. As I went through that process and as I continued to go through that process and it's very much a process that's in the present every single day, I began to find space in my life for all of those things. I began to find that my life would be best lived without burying anything. It's interesting that you bring up Cara Cara as a friend.

Starting point is 00:37:25 As I think about it now, you know, Cara is someone who I've used one of the strongest people that I've ever met, that I've ever known because of her decision to share about what she's been through. And for so many of us, I think we all go through that same process where we figure the world will feel better about us if we have buried certain parts of us without realizing that coming out and being open and being honest about so many of those realities really are our greatest strengths.

Starting point is 00:37:54 Yes, I think that is such an important point. And I also wanted the audience to understand that it took you even once you started to realize this within yourself quite a long time to talk to anyone else about it. And as I understand it, you had gotten married and your wife and your parents started to see a change inside of you and couldn't understand what was going on. And they were the ones who were encouraging you to go seek some help. At that point, did any of them know what was the underlying cause or your pain and suffering? Not by a long shot.

Starting point is 00:38:32 It's interesting because in that moment, when I went off to get that help, I came from a community, I come from an environment where for the most part, we're pretty convinced that child sexual abuse doesn't happen in our communities. It's interesting I was telling the story just a few days ago to somebody. My wife was asked probably at this point several years ago what it was like for me to disclose to her that I had been through a decade of child sexual abuse. And she shared and the way she put

Starting point is 00:39:00 it was so fascinating, she shared with the person who was asking that I could have told her that in the 22 years before I knew her, I had been an accomplished astronaut and had taken multiple trips to the sun. And in fact, I landed on the sun. And I planted an American flag on the sun. That would have been less ridiculous to her than telling her that the man she was married to had been through a decadent of this because We were both operating in this headspace of this just doesn't happen in our communities It does happen in our environment. It's we don't want it to be true

Starting point is 00:39:35 So it's not just not true There was a lot of acclimating to that there was a lot of happen to normalize that and understand that and really make place for that in all of our lives because before that conversation it would have seemed absolutely ludicrous completely out of the question just not in the realm of the possibility at all. Well I want to take that one step further and I want to ask why is it so uncommon and you've kind of laid some foundation for this? But for sexual abuse to be not discussed openly in ultra-orthodox communities and Why isn't even more unusual for Rabbi to come forward about this? That's a great question. I think that there's two prongs to it, but they're both somewhat related. I think that our community like many many many in-sular communities suffers from what we call the monster complex. The monster complex basically says that the only person who would do this sort of thing is

Starting point is 00:40:31 scum. It's the epitome of evil. Now, don't get me wrong, there are a lot of people that do this sort of thing that are scum. And the epitome of evil, there are a lot of people that do this sort of thing who are confused, who are survivors themselves, who do these sorts of things for many sorts of reasons. And as such, when a child in an insular community goes to leadership within a community and says, look, I was in school and this teacher touched me inappropriately, what we hear the child say is, look, I was in school and this teacher is a monster. You have a monster on your hands, who's teaching second grade. When all the child is saying is the teacher came and he did something inappropriate to me

Starting point is 00:41:07 It happened once It feels super weird to me. I want to make sure it doesn't happen again So between what the child is saying and what the leadership in that community is hearing you have to Completely different things and the leadership goes and says I'm sorry Can't be that our second grade teacher is a monster because everyone loves him But he's a great teacher and the kids all want to be in this class and he's great and his wife loves him and everyone loves him and he can't be a monster. And the meantime, a child's not saying he's a monster. Child is not suggesting that he's some sort of reprehensible human being.

Starting point is 00:41:35 Child is saying this is a damage person who's been through a lot himself likely who has made that damage not generational in this past that along to me and he needs help. We are not saying that he needs to be thrown away for 150 years and throw away the key and send him off to Alcatraz. We're saying he needs help. We're not hearing that. And so as a result of that, a lot of these issues go on diagnosed in our communities because of our inability to really understand the nuance around these sorts of conversations to exacerbate that problem. One may be it's difficult for a rabbi to speak up about it is in the situations where enough people come forward For our communities like this seriously. We then view all of the survivors who have gone through these sorts of experiences as just

Starting point is 00:42:15 Rejects right broken irreparably harmed just having been through traumatic experiences, which is true and as a result of that through traumatic experiences, which is true. And as a result of that, they are no good. And no one should ever know that they went through these experiences because then no one will love them and they'll never get married and will never lead productive lives so much pity, so much sadness, they're no good. When the truth is they've gone through traumatic experiences, we can never downplay that. And the fact that they have gone through traumatic experiences does not, cannot, should not, and will not withhold them in any way, shape or form from leading the most beautiful, amazing, and productive lives they could have ever imagined.

Starting point is 00:42:51 And so it's interesting because when I told my story the first time, the reporter who wrote my story for the Deseret News used this sort of terminology that I was the first Orthodox Rabbi to come forward about being sexually abused as a child. Now, I think she's right. I mean, I don't know. At that moment, I did not know if anybody else had to come forward about being sexually abused as a child. Now, I think she's right. I mean, I don't know. At that moment, I did not know if anybody else who had come forward publicly. In the three and a half years that have elapsed since that article was printed, I have come to know hundreds, hundreds of Orthodox rabbis that have been sexually abused as children. Now, at this point, a handful of them have also come forward publicly.

Starting point is 00:43:24 Many of them have not, but the idea that someone who's a communal leader, we need to look at them as them having only had a perfect life because they need to lead a perfect life and they need to be blemish-free in every form and fashion. That is a myth that we need to bust. No one is perfect. Everyone is dealing with what they've been through, having been through traumatic experiences of a child is not take away from you. Again, in any way, shape or form,

Starting point is 00:43:52 the ability to lead the most incredible life that you could have ever imagined. Well, in speaking of the Jewish community, I understand that one of the reasons that you decided to come forward and tell your story was you happened to watch another prominent Jewish gymnast testifying about the abuse that she was going through. Why did that event trigger in you this, I guess, desire that you needed to bring this out to the open, et cetera.

Starting point is 00:44:25 Well, I like how you refer to Ali Rasmain as another Jewish gymnast, a matcher if I'm the other one. My gymnastics are not quite what they used to be. For me, I think that example is so profound and it touches quite a bit on what we've been discussing throughout this conversation. I'm a pretty avid sports fan. I've been for a very, very long time. I'm a long, suffering Utah Jazz fan.

Starting point is 00:44:44 And I know you're that I've tapped today. You folks are winning another professional championship every six weeks, whether it's in baseball or in hockey or in football. You guys don't know what it means to struggle. I joke. When I was 21, the Penn State scandal broke. It had been uncovered that for years and years and years,

Starting point is 00:45:02 the Penn State football program had effectively almost been a front for years and years and years, the Penn State Football Program had effectively almost been a front for dozens and dozens and dozens of children to be harmed. There was legacy after legacy that was being tarnished by the story and did coach Paturno No, or he didn't know and take down statues and it's a big to do, it's a big story. And for me what stood out most prominently in that story is the way the survivors in that story are portrayed. You look through every media filing that was happening in that story in real time and to be fair, a number of those survivors have come forward with their face, with their name, and the most brave people you could imagine.

Starting point is 00:45:37 But in the moment, the story is about the bad guys. The story is about Jerry Sandesky and the story is about Joe Patrano. And the survivors, the people who have been through these sorts of experiences, are almost being left to your imagination as these nameless, faceless creatures who are banished to the shadows. And as a survivor, you read about this and you live through the story and you're like, I never want to come home. Because I never want to be thought of in the same way as these poor young men who are just

Starting point is 00:46:02 cowering in darkness. Fast forward a number of years and then you have the USA Gymnastic story and for me what's so fundamentally different about the USA Gymnastic story which I think absolutely changed the landscape of how we view this forevermore is when you think about USA Gymnastics you think less about the bad guy, Larry Nasser in this case and you think about the incredible young women who came forward publicly in the moment and let their face and their accomplishments and their achievements to the story. The Adi Reisman and Jordan Weiber, most of the gold medalists that have gone on to incredible glory for our country, Simone Viles, and hundreds of gymnasts that will never know who

Starting point is 00:46:41 they are because they didn't make the national team and they didn't win win medals, not that the minute isn't any way from their experiences, but you have people that you can aspire to be like. And you can think to yourself, my gosh, here are people who have reached a pinnacle of life at the ripe old age of 21. They've won Olympic gold for their country. They're barely out of their teenage years. And they have their entire lives in front of them. For the rest of their lives, there'll be Olympic champions,

Starting point is 00:47:05 and that'll be what defines them. And yet, they see no problem in coming forward and saying, you know what, these are my experiences. I'm not doing this for the publicity. I've got more publicity than I know what to do with. I'm doing this because I embrace the honesty because I'm done living in the shadows, living a secret life, having to carry around my trauma

Starting point is 00:47:24 in a backpack that no one should know about. This is me. This is me and the entirety of my experiences, warts and all. And if you don't like it, you can take a number because the fact that this might make some people uncomfortable is not going to make me hide anymore. And so for me, Ali, reading her impact statement at Masters's Sentencing in January of 2018 and the entire saga that went through played a huge part in my siding to a report to law enforcement

Starting point is 00:47:51 and everything that happened as a result of that. And when you did that, what was the reaction like from your parents and from your wife? Was this something that they initially supported or were they afraid of the potential backlash that it could cause. I think that my parents and my wife viewed my reporting to law enforcement more or less through the same lens that I did, which was to be honest, when I called law enforcement, it was, you know, kind of, I checked that box. You know, I talked with my therapist quite a bit about it, and I wanted to report because I felt it was the right thing to do. I'm gonna do my part and I'm gonna report

Starting point is 00:48:26 and nothing will happen and that's fine because I did, I had to do what I had to do to fight for myself and the repercussions of that report really are less important than the decision to go ahead and do it. And so I don't think anybody in my corner, myself included, myself primarily, for saw anything coming about

Starting point is 00:48:46 as a result of that report. I did it, I felt good about myself, and that's what matters. And then it was taken seriously, and then the investigation ensued, and it had a life of its own. Charges were filed, and there was an arrest, and I went to trial,

Starting point is 00:48:58 and I don't think any of us saw that coming. They were super supportive, and I wanted forever indebted to them for that, and let the record reflect they were super supportive, once wanted forever indebted to them for that and let the record reflect they were super supportive once and got really serious as well because if that's what I need to do to find justice Then they were gonna support that And I just have to ask what was it like to be in that courtroom and to face your abuser? It must have been very difficult for you

Starting point is 00:49:22 It must have been very difficult for you. Definitely, it's difficult. It's confusing. It is overwhelming on so many levels. We sadly live in a system in which our criminal justice system has turned very combative. In the sense that it feels less of a search for the truth and more like a fight to the death. We will do our best to tear you down and you will do our best to tear them down and whoever gets torn down for us loses and whoever survives as opposed to just being a search or truth and a search for accountability. I think it's

Starting point is 00:50:01 important that your listeners know like many survivors I wasn't looking for some sort of punitive punishment I wasn't looking for pain and suffering and tragedy. I wanted accountability. I gladly signed off on the district attorney offering a plea deal That would require my abuser to plead guilty to harming in the circumstances that that harm came about. I wanted acceptance I did not need a lengthy jail sentence. I just wanted accountability. And that was something which my abuser was not interested in providing. And I have such a one to trial with all

Starting point is 00:50:33 of the various complex emotional realities that are attached to that. And it is an experience that I wish on nobody. It is retraumatizing on a number of levels and it was confusing and overwhelming on so many others. And there was a guilty verdict at the end that she came back guilty as charged on all of the crimes that she was charged with. And what I had to learn along the way is that it doesn't necessarily mean that I'll feel that justice was served. I adjust this is a very, very subjective turn and and as a survivor you need to train yourself to live in a space where you can

Starting point is 00:51:07 To find out really for yourself and you can find justice Regardless of what happens in the courtroom and I'm grateful more than anything I'm grateful for that and grateful that when the process wrapped up Regardless of the jury's verdict I felt like I had found some measure of justice Yes, and I wanted to ask kind of a continuing question to that. And that is following the trial. It's my understanding at one point, a few weeks afterwards you felt like you were having a heart attack

Starting point is 00:51:37 and went to the hospital. And I understand it turns out that it was a panic attack. But in some ways I thought you would have probably experienced that before the trial or while the trial was underway, do you think this was just kind of the emotions of everything that had gone on were kind of catching up to you and you didn't know how to process it all?

Starting point is 00:52:01 That is a great question. In fact, the part of theologist that treated me that night in the emergency room, as you mentioned, I was at home and I couldn't drop breath and I felt like I was having a heart attack and I went to an urgent care and they sent me to the ER. It was a series of panic attacks. It was a number of them, probably about a two and a half hour span. When I had finally come back to myself a little bit, the cardiologist walks in. At this point, I had been given a lot of information. I didn't know I thought I was dying,

Starting point is 00:52:28 as many people who suffer panic attacks do. And he came in and he looks, if you're just as obvious as I look at your file, says, what if you're okay if I asked you a somewhat personal question? So I said, sure. So he says, if I see your picture in the paper over the past couple of weeks, quite a bit,

Starting point is 00:52:44 the trial, I'm going to weeks, quite a bit, the trial, I'm going to be significant about, of local media attention. And what I understood him to be asking me was, so you just kind of got done with this trial experience, didn't you, and I said, yes. And he says, well, let me be the first to inform you that you're not having a heart attack,

Starting point is 00:53:00 and you're not going to die. It's certainly not because of that. You're having a series of panic attacks, and that being in the cases completely rational and almost expected, given everything that you've been through. And then he says, in fact, I'm surprised how late you are, how long it's taken you to come into the ER. And I can speculate from the details of Marino, there is such, we talked about burying things.

Starting point is 00:53:19 There is such a process of walling yourself off from emotion that goes on before you go into the courtroom when you're a witness, a trial in your victim, a trial of society expects you to sit there stone faced throughout the duration of the trial. Any weakness, any vulnerability, any emotion that you've shown your part is a big no-no. And so I do think that on a certain level you really do train yourself. To show up to court in the morning, take all of your feelings, take everything that exists inside you, put it in a cage, lock a shut, go in there and just be a statue for eight hours, come back and take everything out. That I didn't have that reaction during trial and it's that it happened back in the trial.

Starting point is 00:53:59 But I think for me the most meaningful part of that story is that when he told me that I have was having panic attacks, I was not very happy with his diagnosis. I was 28 years old and I don't want to be the sort of guy that has panic attack. He reminded me in that moment that about 75% of the world's population deal with panic attacks on a somewhat regular basis. This makes me human. This makes me nothing less than human. It doesn't make me weak or damaged or bad or anything that the story makes me human. And that's part of the beauty of life is embracing our humanity, embracing our flaws, finding beauty in them. And it was another example of having to live by that much.

Starting point is 00:54:37 Well, I appreciate you sharing that because you locked into having a good doctor who was compassionate and empathetic at a point that you desperately needed it and probably to hear that coming from him reassured you that the emotions that you were feeling at that point were natural. And you were just processing probably 20 years of grief at that point of finally getting through this horrific experience and coming out of it on the other side and not knowing exactly how to feel about it, which just tells you how long trauma can exist. And then also, you're part of a trial where your abuser's defense attorney is coming after

Starting point is 00:55:18 you trying to paint you as the abuser during this whole ordeal. So that had to be extremely difficult as well. Then after that, you are asked to speak to I think it was 200 plus attorneys representing the Utah bar and I understand as this unfolded it turned out to be a pretty heated exchange and was viewed as controversial among the defense bar. I was hoping you could touch on that, but why you came out of it all feeling that conversation filled you with hope. In general, for me, a tremendous part of my healing journey has been finding a measure of purpose in my pain. As a man at faith, I try to live my life in a headspace where nothing happens for no reason. And everything happens for some sort of reason.

Starting point is 00:56:06 And if I have to go through painful experiences and once I've been given the ability to really understand what those experiences are, perhaps I can have the ability to find something good, something productive, something purposeful that comes about as a result of those experiences. I think it's become something which I'm tremendously passionate about, is really finding the good in every sort of experience. Which has led me to coming forward publicly and engaging in an advocacy career. Trial was brutal. That had been expected to a certain point. But beyond it being brutal, it was unfair.

Starting point is 00:56:37 It was beyond the pale. It was just, in my opinion, defense councils, entire approach to the case crossed every imaginable line. Sadly, as I mentioned, we live in an environment in a system where we have a very combative criminal justice system. And so if a woman alleges that she was sexually assaulted, you can almost guarantee this woman that if this case is going to go to trial, every sexual partner that she had over the past 150 years is going to be mentioned and the amount of alcohol that she is consumed over the past 150 years is going to be mentioned and the amount of alcohol that she is consumed over the past 150 years is going to be mentioned.

Starting point is 00:57:07 And every item of clothing in her closet is going to be picked apart whether the skirts are too short or not short or not, so on and so forth. That's the system that we live in. Uniquely, children, when you hurt children, we shouldn't be having that conversation. We live in a system where children are not capable of consent. And if you hurt a child, the defense of, well, the kid made me do it, it shouldn't really be accepted in a court of law.

Starting point is 00:57:29 Well, exactly what defense counsel in my case tried to do. And I'm grateful for the fact that it was woefully ineffective, but they tried it. They tried it. And I think that in a large part, that's why I ended up in the emergency room a couple of weeks later with a series of panic attacks. Every bad thought that I had about myself for 20 years to that point, every measure of

Starting point is 00:57:51 pain and blame and guilt that I'm living through is completely manifested and acted out in a courtroom. And you have a defensive journey who is verbalizing the worst of my thoughts. It's all my fault. It's all, she's blameless. It's not her fault. It's all on you. Now, I'm grateful blameless. It's not her fault. It's all on you now I'm grateful for the fact that I have a strong support system and I was able to come out of that and I know there's a lot of people

Starting point is 00:58:10 Who go through the criminal justice system that don't and so I was invited to present in front of the U. Testate bar primarily to defense attorneys to talk about why there's got to be a better way of doing things than we traumatizing Victims having a system where we take crime victims. And if they want to report a crime, we tell them, sure, you can do that. You're welcome to report. And your case might actually go somewhere. Just know this. If it does, all of your worst nightmares will be acted out in person to the fullest, guaranteed.

Starting point is 00:58:40 Having an environment that almost promises that the victims has got to be the single most backwards way of going about things that we can imagine. And we're guaranteeing that people won't come forward. And I made the case to defense attorneys, and I talked about the fact that retraumatization is real. Putting victims through that on the stand is real. I completely believe in our constitution and in the rights that every American should have

Starting point is 00:59:04 to a fair and robust trial and to have the ability to confront their accuser in open court and I think that there's a polite respectful I might even add non-combative way to go about that and there were some defense attorneys that were less than receptive to that idea There were a lot of defense defense attorneys that were receptive to idea. It did get a little bit contentious as you referenced, but it does still fill me with hope that we can really begin to understand the effects

Starting point is 00:59:35 of trauma on those that go through it. We can really begin to understand that re-traumatization is a real thing, that it has real effects effects on real people and we can all work together to construct a system that is respectful and understanding of people and their needs across the spectrum. And it is a goal and a dream and a utopia that I hope for on a regular basis and one that I fight for every single day. a regular basis and one that I fight for every single day. I think it's important here for me to just say that whichever way abuse happens, the bottom line is it is not the victim's fault. Abuse is an intentional choice that the abuser chooses to take against the victim. And I think that's how we need to view it.

Starting point is 01:00:22 And oftentimes we want to come at it all different angles. To me, that's the simplest way you've got to look at this. It should be. I agree with you. And it pains me that we're still trying to figure that out. It really does. And I think that a reality which is manifest on a number of levels, whether it's inside the courtroom

Starting point is 01:00:42 or inside the boardroom or inside any other room that exists in our environment. It's a draw, a really pertinent point where about 24 hours moved from Dishon Watson being suspended for six games for, I believe it's at this point, 24 women bringing civil claims of sexual harassment against them. I think that we need to realize the subconscious effect of certain messages that we send or that we receive or that we pick up on and how those messages are understood in the wider world that we live in.

Starting point is 01:01:13 And if we want to start prioritizing victims needs and see the world from their lenses, it's gonna require a little bit of wholesale change. Yes, I would say just a tad. I wanted to ask you just a couple more questions specifically to get some of your advice so that the audience can hear it because I think it's very important. First question is how can survivors be resilient, successful, and strong following this traumatic situation? I think the most important thing that a survivor can do is to tap into the

Starting point is 01:01:47 fact of how resilient, successful, and strong they already are. For me, so much of my journey has been having the ability to look at how far I've come to be grateful for that and to want to inspire others to make that same realization and recognition about themselves. Bravery is something which is manifest in a number of different forms. I think that there are a lot of people out there that we look at as being uniquely qualified to be brave when we sometimes don't realize that

Starting point is 01:02:23 what we are doing the life that we are living the path that we have decided to go down in somebody else's eyes might be the bravest and strongest choice known to mankind. And so I think that for a survivor to want to go down a path, resiliency, strength, and success, so much of that begins with having the grace and the acceptance to realize how incredibly strong they are already. I'll get calls from random people who say, you know, Rabbi, I came across your story on social media, I heard you on a podcast and I wanna let you know,

Starting point is 01:02:55 and they'll begin to lift off what's up and tap into them in their lives. And they'll end up in say, but I don't know how you're so brave and I don't know how you're so strong. I don't know how you've done it. And I'll say to them, you sure we have this to write, because I have listened to everything that you've been through and what you've gone through to get to where you are today.

Starting point is 01:03:12 And I think you're incredibly brave and you're incredibly strong. And God knows how you get yourself out of bed every morning. And so I think that it's important that survivors are mindful of that, the ability that you have to be here today, to continue to fight, to be inspired, to continue to fight, shows on remarkable resiliency and strength and success, and just really need to tap into that. The other thing I want to ask is,

Starting point is 01:03:35 what happens to the mind of a person, especially an adolescent like you were when this trauma is occurring and afterwards? I'm not a scientist. Scientists will tell you, I would encourage many survivors, they're loved ones, whoever really wants to get a grip on what it actually means to go through these experiences to read The Body Keeps the Score by Dr. Bessel Van der Kolk,

Starting point is 01:03:57 just incredibly pioneering work in the realm of trauma who shares the scientific research that's done that for many trauma survivors, quite literally new pathway to develop in their brain, it has a real tangible physical effect on people and it affects them in every facet of their lives and their ability to do anything and everything throughout their lives. It's important to understand that. It's important to understand the weight of what you've been through because in my opinion really having the ability to move on and move forward can only happen with a proper understanding of what's gotten you until today. What you've been through until this day. And so what happens is your perceptions of so many human realities is warped tremendously,

Starting point is 01:04:46 have a really poor self-image, the way you see the world cross so many perspectives becomes just really irrevocably changed until you can go back and change that properly. And I encourage survivors to really dig down to the bottom of what happened to them and by understanding what happened to them, can they understand what they need to do moving forward. Yes, because it can also cause psychotic disorders, obviously anxiety, depression, PTSD, it can cause getting disorders, yes, all kinds of things. Absolutely. So the last thing I want to ask is if there's someone who's listening to this podcast right now and they're experiencing some form of abuse, what would be your recommendation on some dues and don'ts on how they

Starting point is 01:05:35 should approach it? Do not compare your life's journey to a single other living being on the face of the earth. Healing is not linear, recovery is not linear, the way somebody else did something works profoundly for them and that has little to no bearing on you. The way they did it worked for them, doesn't mean it's gonna work for you likely it won't work for you the same way it worked for them. Do take things at your own pace, do afford yourself a tremendous amount of love and grace and self acceptance along that journey.

Starting point is 01:06:09 Do keep an open mind. Do be prepared to learn about yourself and learn how to love yourself on a level that has seemed just incredibly unattainable until this moment. Do not have unrealistic expectations. Do learn how to use the power of language. Stay away from words like never and always and learn to fight one day at a time, learn to become a little, do not ever operate under the premise that you're going to do X or read Y or take Z and be healed forever. Really learn the power of language,

Starting point is 01:06:53 learn about the way that your trauma affects you and how you're going to cope with that, how you're going to process that, what the expectations you're going to set up for yourself are. Learn that recovery is basically a game of slides and ladders. Recovery is going to have two really good days and then three even better days and then two good days and so on and so forth.

Starting point is 01:07:14 And that's going to be your life's journey for the rest of it. You're going to step into that and you're going to make it uniquely your own and you're going to heal. You are not going to learn that much that's new about you. You're going to learn about incredible reserves of strength and fortitude and beauty and the ability to overcome adversity that have been inside you and with you every single day of your life and will continue to do so. And you're going to find that often the most fulfilling path that's

Starting point is 01:07:44 before you in life is the path that you never expected. The way you had seen your life playing out and the way it's actually going to play out might be two very, very different things. And just because it's not exactly what you had in mind from the outset doesn't mean that it doesn't have the ability to be the most rewarding, fulfilling, incredible version of your life that you can imagine. Well, and I know you're an aspiring writer. I saw, I think you have 25,000 words written of your manuscript already. We're at 40, we're getting there, John. I know there's a finish line in sight. Well, I wanted to ask, when someone eventually reads that book or they hear your story, what is the biggest takeaway that you want that reader or listener to get about it?

Starting point is 01:08:33 I love that question. I think that question really does pertain to everybody, right? Not just survivors of child sexual abuse, not people who are involved in the landscape, but I think it applies to everybody. And that is at times the most helpful thing that you can do think it applies to everybody. And that is, at times, the most helpful thing that you can do for yourself is to sit back or stand back and allow something larger than yourself to do what it needs to do for you to lead the best life

Starting point is 01:08:57 that you can imagine. And if you're a person of faith, call that God. And if you're not a person of faith, call that your higher power, call that the universe, call that whatever it is. There is something out there that each and every one of us can accomplish in the most unique and incredible way

Starting point is 01:09:12 that is so profoundly and personally ours and nobody else's. And I think each and every one of us is passionate about that. We all want to do our thing in this world. And at times finding that thing is going to be in the place that you at least expect it, the place where you never thought to look, that doesn't take it away from being the most incredible thing

Starting point is 01:09:31 that you can accomplish in this world. And at times you have to allow yourself to live a life that is not remotely what you've expected. Allow God to pave that road ahead of you and go on to lead the life that he has for you that will be far beyond any of your imaginations or expectations. Well what a beautiful answer and if the audience members would like to learn more about you what is a great way for them to do that? I'm pretty approachable

Starting point is 01:10:01 on social media. I'm at Utah Rabbi across all major platforms, Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn, not on TikTok, not really. I feel like that's a rabbit hole that I'm pretty approachable on social media. I'm at Utah Ravai across all major platforms, Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn, not on TikTok, not really. I feel like that's a rabbit hole that I'm not going to go down at this moment, but reach out online anytime. I love working with survivors in a one-on-one capacity of taking questions from people and would love to be in touch. Everemy, thank you so much for being on the podcast and being not only vulnerable and authentic, but so brave about sharing your experience and the hope that you can help so many other

Starting point is 01:10:31 people who are victims of these terrible situations. Thank you, John. I appreciate that. Thank you for having me. That was an extremely impactful interview with Rabbi of Remi Zippel. And I wanted to thank Iveremi for reaching out to us and giving us the honor of sharing history on the podcast. Links to all things of Remi will be in the show notes on passionstruck.com. Videos are on YouTube at John

Starting point is 01:10:53 Armiles, advertiser deals and discount codes are in one convenient location. At passionstruck.com slash deals, please consider supporting those who support the show and make it free for our listeners. I'm at John Armiles, both on Twitter and Instagram, and you can also find me on LinkedIn. And if you want to know how I book all these amazing guests, it's because of my network. Go out there and build yours before you need it. And similar to Everett, the majority of the guests who have appeared on this show subscribe to it and provide their suggestions for guest and topics. Please join us. You will be in break company. You're about to hear

Starting point is 01:11:25 a preview of the PassionStruck podcast interview I did with Dr. Ilet Fishback, an award-winning psychologist at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business and the past president of the Society of the Science of Motivation. We discuss her new groundbreaking and best-selling book Get It Done, surprising lessons from the science of motivation. One reason it's hard to choose our objective is that we are often planned for our future self and we have this policy where we think that our future self is going to be much more for superhuman than our present self, which means that when we plan for the future we are envision the person that doesn't get tired or hungry or frustrated or bored.

Starting point is 01:12:13 And that person of course will get up at 6 a.m. Welcome to your late night. Well, not really. And so it's often hard to plan plan because our plans are so full from that what we refer to as the empathy gap is lack of empathy for our future self. The fee for the show is that you share it with friends and family members.

Starting point is 01:12:37 When you find something useful or interesting, if you know someone who's dealing with the consequences of abuse or trauma, definitely share this episode with them. The greatest compliment that you can give us is to share the show with those you care about. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so that you can live what you listen. And we'll see you next time. Live Life Passion Struck. you

Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Rabbi Avremi Zippel on How You Find Purpose in Your Pain EP 175

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