Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Return on Energy: Rethinking ROI in the Age of Burnout w/ John R. Miles | EP 518

Episode Date: May 30, 2025

In episode 618 of Passion Struck, host John R. Miles delivers a powerful solo reflection that caps off Mental Health Awareness Month with one essential question:"What’s the real Return on your Energy?"Drawing on recent interviews with Dr. Judith Joseph and Dr. Andrew Brodsky, as well as past solo episodes that introduced frameworks like H.O.M.E. and L.E.N.S., this episode unpacks how high-achievers—especially leaders—often burn out not from doing too little, but from mismanaging their most finite resource: mental energy.Explore More: The Ignited Life NewsletterIf today’s episode sparked something in you, you’ll love The Ignited Life—our free Substack newsletter created to fuel your growth between episodes.👉 Subscribe now at TheIgnitedLife.net.What You’ll Learn in This Episode:Why ROE (Return on Energy) is the real metric for modern leadershipThe four biggest energy leaks: Over-functioning, Over-identification, Overexposure, and Over-responsibilityHow high-functioning depression masks burnout in top performersPractical tools for restoring your emotional margin and protecting your energyThe five essential “energy investments” that recalibrate your focus and clarityHow to Connect with John:Connect with John on Twitter at @John_RMilesFollow him on Instagram at @John_R_MilesSubscribe to our main YouTube Channel and to our YouTube Clips ChannelFor more insights and resources, visit John’s websiteSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Coming up next on Passion Struck, have you ever looked at your calendar and realized your time is maxed out, but what's really gone is your energy? In this episode, I'm flipping the script on performance because in the age of burnout, it's not just about how much you get done. It's about how well you protect the one resource everything else depends on, your energy. If you've been running at full capacity but still feeling drained, this one's for you. We're talking return on energy and why it might be the most overlooked metric in your life and leadership. Welcome to Passion Struck. Hi, I'm your host, John R. Miles,

and on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips, and guidance of the world's most inspiring people and turned their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you. Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself. If you're new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays. We have long form interviews the rest of the week with guests ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries, and athletes. Now let's go out there and become passion struck. Hey everyone and welcome to episode 618. I am so grateful you're here investing in your growth. You're healing in your pursuit of a life that truly matters

whether you're building a company healing from burnout or simply trying to reconnect with who you are. This is the place where we explore the mindset habits and systems that support lasting transformation. Now a few quick updates the ignited life. My new sub stack is now live. Each week in it, I go beyond the podcast sharing tools, stories, and reflections you won't find anywhere else. And now it's also the home of our brand new merchandise line. Gear

designed to reflect the PassionStruck mindset. You can check it all out at theignitedlife.net or of course you can go to passionstruck.com. And if you haven't yet, head over to our YouTube channel. We're posting full episodes, exclusive clips, and behind the scenes content every week. Just search Passion Struck with John R. Miles on YouTube, or hit the link in the show notes. And before we dive in, one quick look ahead.

Next month, we're opening a new theme here on Passion Struck, the art of connection. I'll be exploring how we build meaningful relationships in our leadership, our lives and our inner world. And we're kicking it off with none other than Dr. John Cabot-Zinn in a powerful conversation on presence, attention, and the heart of human connection. Now this month, we've been honoring mental health awareness by shifting the conversation,

not just talking about mental illness, but exploring what it really takes to design a mentally sustainable life. I kicked it off with episode 606, exploring why mental health is the quiet route beneath everything that matters. Then in episode 609, I shared five foundational habits that anchor you in uncertainty. In episode 612, we explored the power of reframing your inner world using the lens method and how the stories you tell yourself can either sabotage or sustain your resilience. And in last week's solo episode, I introduced the home framework, a new way to think about mental health as an ecosystem, not just as a checklist. Our guest episodes this week took it even deeper.

On Tuesday, Dr. Judith Joseph joined me to unpack high-functioning depression and how even the most driven achievers can be silently unraveling inside. Then on Thursday, Dr. Andrew Brodsky explored the psychology of modern work and how our environments quietly shape our energy, focus, and stress. And today we're bringing all of it home with a question that matters to anyone navigating a high-demand life. What's the real return on your energy? Because here's the truth most of us never stop to consider.

Mental energy is your most valuable resource. More than time. more than tactics, more than sheer willpower. And if you're not measuring it, protecting it, and designing your life around it, you're silently losing return on investment you can't afford to ignore. This episode is the capstone to everything we've explored this month on mental sustainability. Not just in leadership, but in life. Whether you're leading a company, raising a family, pursuing a big vision, or simply trying to stay grounded in a world that pulls you in a hundred directions. Today's episode is for you.

Because if you want to sustain your impact, your presence, and your purpose, you have to scale your capacity. And that begins with how you manage your energy. This is about rethinking burnout, productivity, and performance through one powerful lens, return on energy. Let's get into it. Thank you for choosing PassionStruck

and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life. Now, let that journey begin. Now, let that journey begin. Now, let that journey begin. Now, let that journey begin. Now, let that journey begin. Now, let that journey begin. Now, let that journey begin. Now, let that journey begin. Today, I want to talk about a recent guest, Joseph Nguyen. And when Joseph sat across from me, he looked like someone who had it all figured out. I mean, he's a number one New York Times bestselling author.

By every external measure, he was thriving, A corporate career, productivity dialed in, a library of self-help practices, and a therapist on speed dial. But as he told me, there was a moment where it all cracked open. Not in a dramatic, rock bottom kind of way, but in a slow, invisible erosion. He was showing up, getting things done, doing all the right things. But inside, he felt numb. An, anxiety hummed under the surface. Achievements felt hollow. He was exhausted, not from doing too much, but from being at war with himself.

I didn't realize how much energy I was spending, Joseph told me, just trying to fix what I thought was wrong with me. The turning point didn't come from more effort. It came from letting go of the mental war, from seeing his thoughts, not as truth, but as patterns, from reclaiming the emotional energy he had unknowingly invested into shame, overthinking, and self-judgment. And that's the moment everything shifted. He wrote about it in Don't Believe Everything You Think, and it resonated with millions because so many high achievers live in the exact trap.

They look fine. They perform well, but under the surface, they're bleeding energy into stories that drain them. That conversation hit me deeply because I've been there too. Years ago, I had what I now call a visionary arsonist moment. I looked around and realized I was building things that didn't reflect who I was. I was producing, leading, succeeding, but I was burning through energy at a rate that wasn't sustainable.

Not because I lacked discipline, but because I was betraying parts of myself every day in the name of optics, outcomes, and external expectations, it cost me in focus, in clarity, in creativity. And for CEOs, founders, leaders, and even parents, it's an especially quiet erosion. You don't just manage tasks, you manage people, vision, culture, and care. And when your inner world is in tension, every external decision becomes harder, it becomes slower, it becomes heavier. That's why this episode matters.

Because the greatest loss in burnout isn't time, it's energy. And until you start noticing that loss, not in hours, but in how you feel, you can't begin to shift it. So today, I'm going to unpack something that affects all of us. Whether you're running a business, caring for others, or simply trying to stay steady in a world that moves fast. I'll redefine ROI not just as a return on investment, but as a return on energy. We'll explore the four most

common ways we leak energy without realizing it. And I'll walk through a framework for making decisions, building habits, and living in a way that protects your inner reserves. Because when your energy is intact, your clarity sharpens, your presence deepens, and everything you do carries more weight. Joseph Wynn's story isn't rare. It's the invisible erosion happening inside boardrooms, startups, studios, classrooms, and living rooms every day. And the reason it's so hard to name is because we've never been taught to measure energy. So let's start with a hard truth.

Most high performers don't burn out from doing too little. They burn out from doing too much of what quietly costs them. It's easy to measure your schedule, your output, your accomplishments. That's traditional ROI, return on investment. You pour in time, money, attention, and you measure what comes out, results, recognition, awards, reach, but what we rarely measure and what matters most in the long game is return on energy. So that begs these questions.

How much clarity do you get for the energy you spend? How much alignment exists between what you do and what fuels you and how many decisions are made from your center versus from exhaustion, fear, or people pleasing. This is the real cost center that's killing performance. And for many high performers, especially executive founders and creators, it's invisible. Dr. Judith Joseph, who joined me earlier this week, calls it high functioning depression. And here's what makes it so dangerous. You still perform, you still lead meetings, hit deadlines, close deals, spend time with

your kids and family, but inside the lights are dimming. You're exhausted, disconnected and hollowed out, but no one can see it because the output is still there. And because you're still performing, the world keeps rewarding you for the very behaviors that are draining you. You're praised for being on top of it when internally you're spinning. You're seen as resilient when what you're really doing is suppressing. You're labeled high capacity when what you really are is at capacity. Here's what it looks like in real life.

Decision fatigue that hits earlier and earlier because your mental bandwidth is already stretched thin. Hyper responsibility that leads to over managing, not from control, but from quiet fear of things falling apart. Emotional suppression in the name of staying strong, which slowly numbs your intuition and creativity, and then people pleasing disguised as support while your own needs get pushed to the bottom of the list. All of this erodes clarity.

And when clarity drops, everything becomes more expensive, not in dollars, but in energy. Your conversations get harder. your decisions get slower, your ability to adapt shrinks, not because you lack time, but because you lack internal space. That's the paradox. We're often least aware of the cost we can't see, because most of us weren't trained to measure everything except the one thing that drives it all,

our capacity to show up without self abandoning. So let me offer a reframe. Not all time is equal and neither is energy. An hour spent in alignment is worth 10 spent in survival mode. A decision made from inner clarity ripples outward, saving time, tension, and emotional fallout. The future of sustainable performance, whether in leadership, parenting, caregiving, or creative work isn't about doing more. It's about protecting the capacity to be fully present

in the things that matter most. Because when your energy is leaking, everything feels heavier. Your relationships suffer, your health suffers. Your sense of purpose dims. And eventually, so does your impact on others. That's why return on energy is the metric we need to start tracking. Not just how much you're doing, but what it's really costing you. So if your team feels stuck, your vision feels foggy, or your fire is fading, don't just push harder.

You might be leaking energy in ways you haven't even yet seen. Coming up, I'm going to unpack the four most common energy drains and show you how to stop the quiet leak before it becomes a full collapse. So let's now talk about where energy really gets lost, not in dramatic breakdowns, but in subtle familiar patterns. The ones we normalize, the ones we carry quietly, because we think they're just part of being responsible, driven, or strong.

They don't show up as red flags. They show up as late night emails, overbooked calendars, always saying yes and never really resting. But these patterns, they're draining you slowly, invisibly, and every single day. So if energy is the real currency of your life, not just your work, where's yours going? Because most of us aren't losing energy in obvious places. We're leaking it in four core patterns that feel normal, until they don't. Patterns we've internalized so deeply, we don't even question them. We just

push through until something gives. Let me walk you through each one and see if any of them sound a little too familiar. We'll start with the one I know intimately, over-functioning. It sounds like this. I just need to push a little harder. If I don't do it, who will? I can't stop now. It all depends on me. It's this reflexive drive to keep doing, solving, fixing, even when what's really needed is to pause, reflect, or ask for help. And here's where Dr. Joseph's insight on high-functioning depression really lands. People who seem the most together, the helpers, the achievers, the ones everyone counts on, are often praised for behaviors that are actually signs of depletion.

They show up, they deliver, they lead, but under the surface, they're running on fumes and no one sees it because the output is still there. You show up early, you stay late, you keep all the plates spinning and the world calls you driven. But inside, you're spinning because it's not just the workload,

it's the emotional cost of trying to carry it all. And I'll be honest, I've been there. For years, I was over-functioning as a way to outrun self-doubt. I thought if I could just do enough, achieve enough, stay busy enough, I'd be okay. But here's the truth I learned. You can't outrun what's inside you by over delivering outside you.

Eventually, something gives. And this leads us to the second drain, over identification. It sounds like ambition. It looks like commitment. But here's what's really happening. Your sense of self starts to fuse with your output. A good result means you're good, a setback. Suddenly it feels like you are the failure.

You hit a goal and it feels like a rush of worthiness. You miss it and you question your value. This is one of the quietest, most accepted energy leaks in modern life, especially in a culture obsessed with productivity, achievement, and optics. And here's why it's so draining. Because you're not just doing the work, you're constantly trying to earn your sense of enoughness through it. So every choice feels loaded. Every risk feels personal and every mistake feels like proof you're falling short. This isn't about lowering your standards or caring less. It's about remembering you are not your grades.

You are not your promotion. You are not your parenting on a hard day. You're a human and your value doesn't disappear when your output dips. Resilience starts when we stop making performance the mirror of our identity and start reclaiming the space to just be without performing for our worth. Now, a quick pause before we go further. If today's episode is landing and you're seeing some of your own patterns here, stay with me. We've got two more energy drains to cover and the next one might be the one we've

normalized most. But first, a quick break. All right, welcome back to Passion Struck. Now, let's talk about something that's become the default mode in modern life. Over exposure. No boundaries. Constant input. Zero recovery time. You're not just working. You're always on. Even if you're not clocked in, your brain is still spinning.

Managing logistics. Scanning notifications. Anticipating what's next. This one's sneaky. It often looks like being responsible, helpful, informed. You answer emails at dinner. You keep up with every update. You scroll as a way to decompress,

but never actually disconnect. The result? You lose your inner signal. You stop hearing your own instincts. You start reacting instead of responding. You're constantly absorbing without a moment to process. And whether you're leading a company, raising kids, managing a classroom, or building a brand, this kind of input overload wears down your clarity and your creativity. Because here's what no

one teaches us. We weren't designed for 24 by 7 stimulus. Our nervous system needs space. Our minds, they need pause. And our energy needs boundaries. And when you live without that, you become like an open browser with a hundred tabs running. No filter, no buffer, just noise. The fix isn't locking yourself away or disappearing for a week. It's creating intentional space inside your day.

White space, transition space, moments of silence. Not as luxury, but as strategy. Because clarity doesn't shout, it whispers. And you won't hear it until you make room for it. And finally, one of the most draining patterns I see in people who care deeply is over responsibility. And over responsibility isn't about control, it's about compassion that quietly turns into burden. You sense tension in the room and immediately feel like it's your job to fix it.

You absorb the stress of your co-workers, your family, your friends without stopping to ask, is this actually mine to carry? You lie awake at night, not just thinking about your to-do list. What about everyone else's too? And here's what that does to your energy. It depletes you in ways no task list ever could. Because emotional labor might be invisible, but it's heavy. And when you carry what isn't yours, here's the risk. You're not helping, you're enabling. You're stepping in where you were never meant to stay. And in the process, you're shrinking under the weight

of everyone else's expectations, emotions, and unresolved tension. This doesn't just affect leaders. It affects parents, partners, caregivers, teammates, anyone who's had to take responsibility for the wellbeing of others. But here's the truth. Care is powerful, but without boundaries,

it becomes self-erasure. Leadership, whether it's at work, at home, or in your community, isn't about martyrdom. It's about discernment, knowing what's yours, what's shared, and what needs to be handed back with compassion and trust. So let's zoom out. These four patterns, over-functioning, over-identifying, over-exposure, and over-responsibility, aren't failures. They're survival strategies. They're ways we try to stay in control,

stay valuable, stay safe. But the cost is clarity, creativity, capacity, connection, and ultimately, your ability to show up in the world from a place of strength, not strain. So here's the reflection I want to leave you with. Where are you leaking energy right now? Which one of these patterns feels the most familiar? Because once you name the drain, you can start to reclaim the flow. So we've gone through a lot in today's episode. So what do we do with all this information? We've named the drains, we've exposed the invisible costs.

Now it's time to rewrite the playbook because the traditional productivity model, it's outdated, it's obsessed with volume without asking about viability. It rewards activity over alignment. But here's what high performers actually need. A shift from time-based ROI to energy-based ROI. And that means reframing productivity

as a function of emotional clarity. So if you don't understand that, let me explain. You can have all the time in the world, but if your inner world is cluttered, reactive, or exhausted, the output won't land, the decisions won't stick, and the traction won't hold. So what should we actually be measuring? Let me offer three core metrics that matter if you're serious about energy return on investment. The first is clarity to output ratio.

Ask yourself, how much of my work is generated from clarity versus chaos? When you make decisions from a grounded state, not panic or pressure, you avoid rework. You avoid regret. One aligned decision saves hours of cleanup. This is why white space isn't lazy, it's leverage. The next one is simple but powerful. Emotional margin is your buffer. It's the space between what hits you and how you respond.

Without it, you react. You firefight, you spiral. With it, you stay grounded. You choose your response. You lead with intention. It's what keeps a hard conversation from becoming a meltdown. It's what turns a bad day into a blip instead of a breakdown and in high stakes roles. This isn't a luxury.

It's leadership hygiene. If your emotional margin is gone, it doesn't matter how smart or skilled you are, you're flying with no altitude, and eventually you'll crash. And then lastly, let's talk about decisions that feel right, not just look good on paper. Because when a choice really resonates, you don't have to over explain it. You don't have to spend the next three days second guessing it. It holds up, even under pressure. But when it doesn't, you can feel the friction. You justify it. second guessing it. It holds up even under pressure, but when it doesn't,

you can feel the friction. You justify it. You tweak it. You scramble to make it work. That's energy you never get back. Dr. Andrew Brodsky brought this up when he joined me earlier this week. How giving people mental space and decision ownership leads to better outcomes, not just more productivity, better clarity, more creativity, and less burnout. It's why I term the phrase Gardner leader. So here's the pivot. Stop asking how much can I do? Start asking what creates the most impact per unit of energy. Because when you shift that question, your decisions change. Your strategy changes. You change. Return on energy isn't soft.

It becomes your edge. So let's land with something tactical. Because awareness is great, but what changes the game is how you move. Let's talk about energy investments, not productivity hacks, not five-minute fixes. I'm talking about practices that protect your capacity. Here are five that I use and that I've seen transform how top performers stay grounded,

clear and energized. Let's start with the one most of us ignore, scheduling time for nothing. No meetings, no input, just space to process, reflect, and reset. This isn't wasted time, it's thinking time. And honestly, most of your best ideas, they don't happen in the meeting, they happen between them. Give your mind room to breathe and your strategy will follow. Now once you've created some breathing room, here's the next move. Don't carry it all alone. Think of this as emotional hygiene.

Just like you brush your teeth or stretch after a workout, this is how you clear emotional buildup before it turns into burnout. Because whether you lead a team, a family, a classroom, or just your own ambitious life, your nervous system affects everyone around you. If you're off balance, that energy ripples out. So build in places to reset.

That might be a coach, a therapist, a mentor, a partner, or a trusted friend who sees the real you, no armor required. Dr. Joseph put it powerfully. Suppressing emotion might look composed, but it's a shortcut to depletion. Emotional presence? That's what keeps you grounded, focused, and able to sustain the pace without losing yourself in it. So now that we've looked inward, let's look at what's coming at you. Because for most of us, the problem isn't doing too little. It's trying to do everything with no filter.

That's where boundaries come in. Not as walls, but as bandwidth protectors. You can't do deep work in six-minute increments between meetings. So treat your time like it's energy because it is. Block your mornings. Shut down earlier. Build in buffer zones between your calls so you actually arrive with presence. Boundaries aren't rigid. They're respectful of your mind, your energy, and your mission.

So next up, let's go a little bit more personal because clarity doesn't show up on demand. It needs a rhythm, a ritual. So ask yourself, what helps you hear yourself again? For me, it's a morning walk without my phone. For others, it might be journaling. But here's a simple framework you can use weekly. Think about what drained me, what fueled me, what do I want to do differently? Just those three questions answered consistently can shift you from pinball into intentional leadership.

It's not just about overhauling your life. It's about building in checkpoints with yourself. When we talk about energy, we often forget the most literal part of it. If your output feels flat, scattered, or forced, it might not be about your schedule. It might be about your inputs. In a world obsessed with doing, we forget that energy isn't just drained, it's also generated. And one of the most sustainable sources of energy is meaningful input, not doom scrolling, not passive content consumption, but things that genuinely nourish

your curiosity, your perspective, and your sense of self. Think. Reading something that isn't for work, but stirs something in you. Listening to a podcast that expands your thinking. Creating something just for the joy of it. Having conversations that make you feel more like you. This isn't about optimizing downtime. It's about staying connected to what lights you up so your energy has somewhere to return to. Because here's the truth, you can't keep pouring it out if you're never pouring it in. So ask yourself, what kind of input leaves you feeling more human? That's your fuel, make time for it. So let's bring today's episode full circle, back to Joseph Wynn, back to the quiet erosion

under all the success. He wasn't burned out from doing too little. He was exhausted from caring too much of what wasn't his, from judging every thought, from performing his way through pain. And the breakthrough didn't come from a better system or another tool. It came from reclaiming his energy from the inside out. It came from realizing this. You don't scale your life by squeezing more in, you scale it by leaking less.

That's why this shift matters. Because the truth is, your mind knows what matters, but your energy, that's what actually builds it. And if you're constantly operating at capacity, reacting from depletion, running on borrowed bandwidth, your ideas don't get sharper. They get stuck. Your vision doesn't expand. It shrinks. And the future you're building, it starts to blur. So here's the invitation I want to leave with you. I'm going to give you a simple but powerful prompt. If I had just 10% more clean energy every day, what would I redirect it towards?

Now ask yourself, what decisions would get easier? Would you finally finish that project? Would you show up more present at home? Would you lead with clarity instead of control? Your answers to these questions will show you where to start, because protecting your energy isn't a luxury. It's leadership hygiene, and it's the future of meaningful productivity. And that's a wrap. If this episode sparked something for you, share it with someone who needs to hear it, someone who carries more than they show, someone who needs the reminder. Energy is not unlimited, but it is reclaimable.

For more tools like this, don't forget to subscribe to The Ignited Life, our weekly substack with stories, frameworks, and tools designed to help you live a life that reflects who you are. Check out our YouTube channel for full interviews, behind-the-scenes content, and exclusive leadership insights. And yes, we've got merch, gear that reflects the mindset of living passion struck. You can find it at passionstruck.com. And as we wrap mental health awareness month, I want to thank you for being part of this journey.

Every episode this month was designed to build towards something deeper, not just managing life, but living it with integrity and alignment. And starting next week, we open a new chapter. Our theme for June is the art of connection. And we're starting where all real connection begins, with presence. John Cabot-Zinn joins me next Tuesday for a beautiful grounded conversation on attention, awareness, and what it means to truly be with the people and moments that matter. We already have this superpower called awareness, and yet when we go to school, all we're taught

is how to think. And thinking is a great superpower and it's given rise to science and everything else, but actually even a lot of the science comes out of the moments before the thinking sets in where you have a nonverbal realization and a ha moment where you see things that no one else has seen up to that point then you win the Nobel Prize or everybody thinks wow what a great insight and sometimes mindfulness is even called insight meditation but it's not something you do it's something you learn to inhabit that's already yours and that's awareness.

Until then, notice more, connect with what's real, and live life passion-struck.