Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Thomas Curran on Breaking Free From the Perfection Trap EP 364

Episode Date: October 26, 2023

In this episode of Passion Struck, I have the pleasure of hosting Thomas Curran, a distinguished professor at the London School of Economics, as we delve into the intricacies of escaping the clutches of the perfection trap. Want to learn the 12 philosophies that the most successful people use to create a limitless life? Pre-order John R. Miles’s new book, Passion Struck, which will be released on February 6, 2024. Full show notes and resources can be found here: https://passionstruck.com/thomas-curran-breaking-free-from-perfection-trap/  Breaking Free from the Perfection Trap: A Thought-Provoking Journey with Thomas Curran Unlock the secrets to breaking free from the perfection trap with expert Thomas Curran in this enlightening Passion Struck podcast episode. Dive deep into the causes of our perfectionist tendencies and discover practical strategies for embracing imperfection and finding true contentment in today's high-pressure society. Thomas is the author of "The Perfection Trap." Check Out The Improve It Podcast With Host Erin Diehl: CLICK HERE. Join Erin every Wednesday as she speaks with personal and professional development gurus about what makes this life pesky and beautiful! Click to pre-order Erin's new book, "I See You," and receive a free gift. Sponsors Brought to you by OneSkin. Get 15% your order using code Passionstruck at https://www.oneskin.co/#oneskinpod. Brought to you by Indeed: Claim your SEVENTY-FIVE DOLLAR CREDIT now at Indeed dot com slash PASSIONSTRUCK. Brought to you by Lifeforce: Join me and thousands of others who have transformed their lives through Lifeforce's proactive and personalized approach to healthcare. Visit MyLifeforce.com today to start your membership and receive an exclusive $200 off. Brought to you by Hello Fresh. Use code passion 50 to get 50% off plus free shipping!  --► For information about advertisers and promo codes, go to: https://passionstruck.com/deals/  Like this show? Please leave us a review here -- even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter or Instagram handle so we can thank you personally! How  Connect with John on Twitter at @John_RMiles and on Instagram at @john_R_Miles. Prefer to watch this episode: https://youtu.be/192vNRkYNMk  Subscribe to our main YouTube Channel Here: https://www.youtube.com/c/JohnRMiles Subscribe to our YouTube Clips Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@passionstruckclips Want to find your purpose in life? I provide my six simple steps to achieving it - passionstruck.com/5-simple-steps-to-find-your-passion-in-life/ Want to hear my best interviews from 2022? Check out episode 233 on intentional greatness and episode 234 on intentional behavior change. Learn more about John: https://johnrmiles.com/ 

coming up next on Passion Strap. Perfectionism can come in many different flavors, and actually that's the most interesting thing about perfection is they're one size fits all. So one perfectionistic person is not the same as another because they will have different emphasis. Some people will be way more person invested in their perfectionism, so to say,

they have an intense desire to be perfect, and that need comes from within, and they successfully high goals themselves, they're quintessential overstrivers, and when they haven't met those goals, it can be very harshly self-critical. So this is what's called a self-oriented, perfectionist-aid person,

and the perfection comes from within. Welcome to PassionStruct. Hi, I'm your host, John Armeils, and on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips, and guidance of the world's most inspiring people and turn their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you. Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself. If you're new to the show, I offer advice and answer

listener questions on Fridays. We have long form interviews the rest of the week with guest-ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries, and athletes. Now, let's go out there and become PassionStruck. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to episode 364 PassionStruck, consistently ranked by Apple as the number one alternative health podcast. And thank you to all of you, come back every single week to listen and learn how to live better, be better, and impact the world.

If you're new to the show, thank you so much for being here, or you simply want to introduce this to a friend or a family member, we now have episode stutterpacks, which are collections of our fans' favorite episodes that we organize into convenient topics. That give any new listener a great way to get acclimated to everything we do here on the show. Either go to passionstruck.com slash stutter listener a great way to get acclimated to everything we do here on the show. Either go to passionstruck.com slash starter packs or Spotify to get started. And in case you missed it, earlier in the week, I interviewed Kara Collier, Powerhouse and the World of Health and Nutrition.

As a registered dietitian nutritionist and the co-founder as well as VP of health and nutrition sense, Kara's expertise is reshaping the landscape, personalized health, and how to approach metabolism. And in case you liked Kara's episode or today today's we would truly appreciate a five-star rating in review, ensuring the show with your family and friends. It goes such a long way to bring more people in the passion-struck community. And I know we and our guests love to hear from our listeners. Today we have a truly illuminating conversation and store for you. My guest is none other than Thomas Kern, a distinguished professor at the London School

of Economics, and the acclaimed author of the groundbreaking book, The Perfection Trap, that delves deep into the perilous journey of perfectionism. In this episode, we embark on a thought-provoking exploration of how the relentless pursuit of perfection has evolved into a treacherous obsession preventing us from reaching our true potential. In a world where burnout and depression have reached alarming levels driven by fierce workplace competition, the omnipresent influence of social media promoting unhealthy comparisons, the relentless quest for elite recognition and the pressures of modern parenting.

Society continually sends the message that we must strive for flawlessness at all costs. Drone from a wealth of contemporary evidence, forrin not only shines a light on the perils of this monor day perfectionist's trap, but also advocates for introspection and societal change. He reveals what individuals can do to resist the overwhelming pressure to be perfect, offering a path for more meaningful life. Throughout our conversation, we will delve

into fascinating topics including why perfectionism has become the socially acceptable flaw, the hidden epidemic of perfectionism in our society, the surprising connection between procrastination and perfectionism, and how the rise of social media has amplified the standards of perfection to unprecedented levels. We will also explore the liberating concept of embracing imperfection, discovering the power of good enough in a world that often demands nothing less than perfection. With a TED talk that has garnered over 3 million views, Feren has become a leading voice and understanding in combating the rising-tider perfectionism. His work has been featured in esteemed publications, ranging from the Harvard Business Review

to new scientists, and he has made appearances on numerous television and radio programs. As Adam Grant aptly puts it, Thomas Kern is the world's leading expert on perfectionism and his definitive book Explores Why. So get ready for an eye-opening discussion that promises to reshape your perspective on perfectionism as we dive into the world, Thomas Kern. Thank you for choosing PassionStruct and choosing me to be your host and guide

on your journey to creating an intentional life. Now, let that journey begin. I am so excited today to have Thomas Kern on PassionStruck. This is an episode I've wanted to bring to you for quite a long time. So I'm glad Thomas we can finally do it. Welcome. Thanks, John, for having me. I'm really excited to chat about perfectionism. Thanks, John, for having me. I'm really excited to chat about perfectionism. Thomas, before we get into perfectionism, I was looking at your resume. And I found out that before you were a professor at the London School of Economics, you actually worked for Goldman Sachs doing behavioral science research.

And I always find it fascinating because when I was at Lowe's and Dell, we had behavior scientist as well who were studying more of the customer impact. But based on what I saw, looked like you were doing work on internally what was happening at Goldman Sachs. And I was hoping you might be able to talk a little bit about it. Yeah, that's right. I've done a lot of work for Tham's like Goldman.

Trying to understand really what's happening in the workforce at the moment. There's a lot of turnover. People have brought on cost a lot of money for firms like Goldman. Trying to understand really what's happening in the workforce at the moment, there's a lot of turnover. People have brought on, cost a lot of money to bring them into the system and train them up and all the rest of it. And they're finding that having made that investment

that there seems to be there for a short time and then they move and that's very costly. So really, Retainment is a big problem right now in a lot of... And the work that I've been doing in those areas trying to understand what makes employees tick, what is it about cultures, environments that allow them to thrive in those organizations. And in so doing,

find a worker happier place to be, but also places for filling that allows them to pursue their goals, allows them to feel a sense of competence and relatedness within the organisation and those things we know are really important in terms of their engagement of work and therefore their willingness to stay the course, so to speak. And so that's really a lot of the work that I've been doing in those areas, basically do research projects, get a sense of the lay of the land, and what it's like around here, and then try to pinpoint some of the areas where there might be some dissatisfaction,

where there might be a little bit of a lack of engagement, or even disaffection or perhaps burnout and certain pockets of organizations, and try to really, in fact find and then input and put in place some recommendations and strategies that can help those individuals feel more engaged and more motivated. So I think that's really the work that I've been doing and I think that's why a lot of firms really are looking out towards behaviour science to try to understand not just the customer and how they can market and create tools that engage and bring revenue but also how they look after their own staff and keep them that engage and bring revenue, but also how they look after their own staff

and keep them happy, keep them productive, keep them vitalised and all the rest of it. So I think that's why firms like Goldman and others are turning towards behavior scientists. I'm always a little bit skeptical when I see some of the studies that come out from Gartner and from other groups, especially the one on engagement, because it's just hard for me to fathom if what they're saying is accurate that out of a billion full-time workers across the entire planet that over 70% of them are disengaged.

But if that is true, what do you think from your research and being involved What do you think from your research and being involved in a number of companies are one or two of the root causes that might be causing this disengagement? Oh, it's so much and it can vary from firm to firm, but I think broadly the workplace has changed from what it used to be. Yeah, career was a thing that our parents knew extremely well that they went into a firmer and organization. They mastered a skill in that particular organization. They worked their way up, became an authority in that area, maybe managed a team, and if they went even higher, they may be sat on the board. And this was the traditional life course of a job. But today, it's not necessarily that straightforward. Lots of young people

go into a very insecure job market at the moment. They will hop from job to job. This is something I heard of, even one generation ago, but now normal, right? You jump from one job to the next job to the next job to the next job. And I think that does create that insecurity is in the one hand quite liberating. It's like a hostile and grind culture and make something of myself, make my way. But on the other hand, it can be psychologically really difficult because we don't know where we are. There's always uncertainty about whether we're doing enough, whether we're working hard enough, whether we're sacrificing enough to please our boss or the organization because we might be let go in six months, a year's time. And that in security, whilst at first, can seem liberating, I think over time can feel

really draining, especially if we don't feel we're getting anything as much back as what we feel like we're putting in. It can create a lot of cynicism and a little bit of resentment at times and looking over our shoulder. What's the next opportunity? Could I have a better deal at this firm or that for me, this kind of new work environment just creates this sense that we're never quite sure if we're enough, if we're good enough. And so that's what I think is at the root and more generally of that big sort of these numbers that you're quoting here, this big sort of disaffection and disengagement numbers around the amount of sheer number of workers that feel like they disengaged.

I think is a response to the new work climate, which is more insecure, demands a lot. And outside of those big kind of narrow elite professions, doesn't feel to a lot of people like he's giving them enough back. Yes, I had a really interesting conversation with Seth Godin a couple months ago. He has a new book out called the Song of Significance. He really feels that what is missing in so many of the work environments today is significance and how what you're doing at work relates

to inner joy, inner contentment, etc. between what you said and what he said. I think there's something there. I have to tell you, I saw this firsthand when I was at a company called Lendlace, which you may be familiar with because the parent company owns Bovis Lendlace, which is a large construction company in London. When I first joined them, they were this huge monstrosity of a company based out of Sydney, Australia, where they had been headquartered their entire existence.

And at that time, we owned a second largest bank in Australia. We owned real estate, investment trust. We had large mutual funds, et cetera. And then this part of the business where we would do construction and construction management. And it was a beautiful model because they would use the investments from the financial side to feed the other side.

But fast forward, the board decided to get rid of all the financial aspects of the company. And they brought in a CEO who had come from cable and wireless in the UK and really knew nothing about the business model. And I saw as he ended up making a couple of moves, one to go through the divestiture of all these financial services aspects of the company. And so when that happened, our PE ratio went from 40x down to 8x. But then he also made the decision to shift the headquarters from Australia to London. And so he delisted

us from the Australian Stock Exchange and put us on the European exchanges and the issue that happened was that no one knew who Lundley's was and had no name recognition. And what I saw being an employee at that time and a fairly senior executive was just the complete culture shock that ended up happening in the mass accidents that happened globally. So I think sometimes companies don't think through the cultural implications of this. And I think that's another reason why people lose sight of the impact that they're able to have in these companies. I think that ties in rather neatly with what your conversation with Seth was driving at.

As an organization, there's so many moving parts. And if people within that organization feel like they're having a say or have input into big decisions like huge decisions. That can feel like there's a sense of indifference that the company holds towards the employee. And that indifference is really so important actually today. Because if you look at the amount of journey, the extent to which everyone moving from the kind of traditional career path that are more freelance, taking a taller ownership over their own prospects and career. It's really tough. If you can be let go in six months a year's time, the message that's sending out really is the company doesn't necessarily value you. If you want to look at the extreme end of that spectrum, it's that you are disposable. So don't get too

comfortable. This is my crisis of significance, this crisis of mattering. People fundamentally want to matter, a key character in my book, Gordon Flette. There's a lot of work on perfectionism, but he also is very keen to understand this crisis of mattering, particularly among young people, but I would argue we're seeing this a lot in the workplace too, for exactly the reasons of the story you told and the reasons that Seth talks about. So I do think it's such an important topic right now that not a lot of people are talking about, but I think we need to grapple with because it's one of the keys to understanding what's happening in the workplace. I think you're absolutely right. So thank you for diving into that. I want to now start going into

perfectionism and I'm going to introduce it like this. I remember when I was younger in my career, perfectionism was almost built as this magical thing that you wanted to attain. When I was first preparing for job interviews after I left the military, you knew you were going to get that question, what is your greatest strength and what is your greatest weakness? And a lot of the things I was reading at the time were telling me to tell them that I'm a perfectionist. And that's also my greatest strength, but it's also my greatest weakness. And people, and you start out the book by talking about Michelle Fyfer. But I remember seeing athletes talk about being perfectionist, leaders of companies talking about it, famous athletes

talking about it, actors, actresses talking about it. So it's interesting to me that when I talk to behavioral scientists or psychologists, what initially gets them interested in going into these deep areas of studies they do. And so for you, what caused you to start looking at the study of the science of perfectionism? Well, for the reason, actually, you subscribe, this everywhere. And no matter where you look, perfection is not far around the corner, whether it's a billboard, whether it's a social media feed, whether it's a movie theater, sports event, whatever. Wherever we look, there's these idealized lives and lifestyles being lived out of the rich and famous or the uber successful because we live in a culture that line is the 1% or the 0.01% the unicorn achiever. They're the people that are platformed, they're the people we

speak to, we want to hear from. I certainly fell into that trap myself when I was working my way up, the career ladder. I come from a small town modest aspirations and all the rest of it, but I suddenly had myself propelled into a very, called elite university. We call Russell Group in UK similar to the Ivy League. And suddenly like that kind of clash just really exploded, created a lot of difficulty, put itself in post pressure, seeing everyone else who was so good, so intelligent, so smart, working so hard, doing so much better than I was, and all of that kind of

just, I guess we call it a pressure cooker environment of being in this really high bekamereca context, culminated in some really quite significant difficulties in terms of my mental health, worries about how I'm doing, inability to feel satisfied with any achievement, irritability, struggle sleeping, low mood, all of the classic symptoms really, what you would look back now and see is depression were there, and all of them driven in no small part by that incessant need to excel and do better and be perfect at all times. And of course, once I was able to seek help for those feelings and it was fortunate realization that it was perfectionism that was actually creating the problems rather than something that was holding me up, something that was keeping me moving, so it was making me successful was really when I began to think, okay, so this is something that we need to be thinking about more critically, I'm not in culture, so I looked into literature, couldn't find a great deal and haven't been an academic of what, let's do some work in this area, let's try and understand

what's going on. And one of the things that the reason I'm even talking to you, the way the reason my research is brought to prominence, because I was the first research to really take a look at this over time. And so try to understand what's happening to young people and how they become more perfectionistic and we're finding in our data at time and time again, that young people are reporting far higher levels of perfection than they did in the past

and those levels of growing. So it was really researching this respect with me, search, it was very much a personal interest, but I hope I've been able to shine a more critical, like, your sound perfection. Well, speaking of your research and the length of time that you've been doing this, I happened to read one of your research papers from 2017 on perfectionism. And in there, it had an interesting element that I really hadn't thought about.

And that is the difference in how perfectionism impacts us when we're directing it towards the self versus when perceived to come from others. Can you discuss what the difference is and how it manifests itself differently? Perfectionism can come in many different flavors and actually that's the most interesting thing about perfection is they're one size fits all. So one perfectionistic person is not the same as another because they will have different emphasis. Some people will be way more person invested in their perfectionism, so I'm just to say they have an intense desire to be perfect and that need comes from within and they successfully high goals themselves, they're a quintessential overstrivers and when

they haven't met those goals, it can be very harshly self-critical. So this is what's called a self-oriented perfectionistly person, the perfection comes from within. But in many clinical interactions and talking to perfectionists and people and doing a lot of research in Sarah in many decades, researchers have discovered that actually perfectionism is way more than just a personal obsession. It's also something that comes from the social world. In fact, in many ways, it is a relational trait, it's an intently relational trait because why are we setting those high goals for ourselves? It's to gain the validation and approval of other people, to tell us that we matter, going back to the mattering, to tell us that we are worth something in this world.

Because without that approval, we feel that we don't have a sense of self, it's so important for us to feel connected through perfect performances, perfect appearances. And that social element is really important because it also means that perfection isn't just something that comes from a minute, so it's something that we feel comes from outside of us too.

There's an intent feeling that everyone and all around us expect us to be perfect at all times and they're waiting to pounce when we're not perfect. This is called socially beschraped perfectionism. And actually, there's a third element, this perfectionism has turned out with none to others. So this is perfectionism. I'm, I need to be perfect and I'm pouring myself over the hot coals to be perfect. So you're going to do that too, because that's only fair, right? This is good. I've already to perfectionism. I need to be perfect and I'm pouring myself over hot coals to be perfect. So you're going to do that too because that's only fair, right? This is good. I've already

imperfections. And these free elements of perfection is really what we understand to be a broad understanding of what's called a multi-dimensional perfectionism. And as I say, people can score higher or lower on each of these spectrums. Some can be high on self, a little bit lower on social and maybe in the middle of other and all sorts of other different combinations and that's and that's why perfectionism can come in all sorts of different sizes. But it's really important when we talk about perfectionism that we do recognize that social element because without it, we get a very incomplete understanding of what perfectionism is, what it does to us, and why it can be so damaging. One of the most gripping things that you write in the book, and you use this to introduce the book, is you say that perfectionism is the defining psychology of an economic system that's hell-bent on overshooting human thresholds. It got me to wondering, how fast is perfectionism rising? Do you consider it to be a hidden epidemic?

So this was a quote in the prologue where I was really setting up the main thesis of the book and look that that's a provocative statement, but it's deliberately provocative because what I wanted to orient readers from the very get go is that this isn't going to be the classic self-help book that most perhaps would be expecting from someone writing about perfectionism. This is going to be the classic self-help book that most perhaps would be expecting from someone writing about perfectionism. This is going to be way broader than that. It's going to interrogate the source of those feelings of not being good enough, not being perfect enough. And if you really want to get at the root of why most of us feel, at least to a certain extent, like we struggle to matter, like we need to be more, we have to do more, have more, show more, is because that's the way our economy works. We have to continually grow

at all times, not just ourselves, but also the economy through expansion of consumption, through more work to service, the debt that services, the consumption. And we all live on this hamster wheel of ever increasing demands that are placed on both ourselves and by the way the planet which is why we're exceeding certain thresholds right now and seeing all sorts of great down by diversity loss and all the rest of it. This is really the source of those feelings and that's why I wanted to set the book up really in those terms from the get go. I think that's really important to say because as the book progresses, one of the key take homes is really that this is not your fault in that respect. If we

can wrap our heads around the idea that this is the way we're supposed to feel, that these feelings are in some way systemic, that they actually, the driver of economic activity, which is grown, developed economies to the stage that they are now with lots of abundance, loss of prosperity and by the way, that's not a bad thing. We've made some extraordinary progress and we live on the most part comfortable lives because of it. So all that perfectionism, all that angst, all that anxiety has brought us to a point of economic development. There's no doubt about that. But nevertheless, we have to reckon with the reality, the cost of that success, so to speak, is an ever-expanding economy that is going to continually weigh on our

sense of insecurity. And then in that sense, these feelings aren't really our fault. The reason we can't snap out of it is not because there's something wrong with us, but they're actually the overall context to these feelings. So I think that helps us understand, first of all, what our perfectionism is and why it works in the way it does. And it takes a lot of personal power off our inability to break through it, because if we put all the personal count and billy on ourselves and try to smash for our perfection and still find it doesn't work, then we're going to be even more critical on ourselves. Why don't you think, work? Why can't we break through? So I think that's really the main message of the book

that this perfectionism that you feel most and a lot of us feel is not your thought. work. Why can't we break through? So I think that's really the main message of the book that this perfectionism that you feel most and a lot of us feel is not your fault. It's in many ways part and parcel being part of a sort of growth, what I've called a growth, all cost economic system. And at some point, and this is where the book really reaches its conclusion, at some point, we're going to have to reckon with the fact that continuing to grow, continuing to push sales on this exponential to direct three upwards might not necessarily be in our best interests and certainly part of something to plan its best interest to either. So that's really where it ends and that's why I wanted to start with that same.

One of the things I often talk about on this podcast is how we today are so caught up in emulating ourselves against the extrinsic aspects of success. Things like money, status, and we thank we're living the quote unquote, good life, but I think it's just going down the continual rat race to the bottom when we're doing that. But it seems like that obsession with having to appear

as if we've achieved this success on the outside is a powerful driving force for this obsession with being perfect. Can you discuss that in a little bit more detail? Yeah, absolutely. We started the conversation, didn't we, with a discussion or analysis about how perfectionism is lionized in modern society. There's a very definitive shift that's taken place over the last 20, 30 years.

In the post-war periods, you had this idea of the affluent society, the celebrated member of society's really average dough. You think the flinstowns, you think the jets and average families, a nice house in a suburbs, car, a couple of kids. This was like what we celebrated. It was the average dough that was the American hero.

Today, we have a complete shift. And the average individual is really not the person that we celebrate. In fact, the benefit and averages are the sidely dirty word these days, partly because the middle classes are being hollowed out, as we speak. But also because what we've decided to do

is fix our gaze instead. On, as I mentioned, 0.01%, the people who have made it to the extreme top because they're the people we want to emulate, that's what we think we should be shooting for. Now, see, Intel have did a really interesting analysis. He's an example of sport, but it can be applied to other contexts. If you want to make it into that elite, then you're going to have to be a six sigma individual, as to say, one in 1.4 million people. Right? That is improbable, not impossible, but completely improbable for most people. And actually the reality is that about 70% of us, on a normal curve, are going to be somewhere around the average, one standard deviation,

even so I'd the average. And there really shouldn't be any shame in that. But right now, because of the way we celebrate these possible ideals, there is a shame in being where most of us reside. And I think that then pushes us to point our compass in the direction of things that are so excessive, our expectations are so warped that we're just going to continually feel that we're not enough, that we haven't done enough, we haven't got enough, we aren't productive enough. That is never going to end because the end point that we hold in our minds is so impossible, that we're only going to ever be disappointed. And not only that, but even if our talents and efforts take us to the top,

we are still going to be disappointed because this kind of mindset of ever more is perfectionist it might set of never enough. Well, it just exposes our dreams as nothing more than dead ends. And some of the most unhappy people or some of the people that have actually made it to that bracket, but they just can't settle there. They can't be content because there has to be more, there has to be more, there has to be more, or the time. And as I said, that's the treadmill that we're all on. I think that's what's infecting us with this perfectionism. And I think if you look at them into health crisis that we're experiencing, the crisis of despair that we're seeing, particularly among young people, I think a lot of that, or the variance in those crisis, can be

explained by these warped standards and expectations that we just project into people's most 24-70 days. It's interesting. I released episode today with Arthur Brooks, and we spent a lot of time about discussing the hedonic treadmill, which is something that is studied by behavior scientist greatly, but it's interesting because he recently wrote a book. I'll build the life you want with none other than Oprah Winfrey. And in your book, you started out by talking about a famous interview that Oprah Winfrey did. And this happened to be with Lance Armstrong.

And the reason I'm bringing this up is I think it ties directly into what you were just describing. We see people out there famous athletes. It could be messy. it could be Steph Curry here in the United States, and you hear about how much training they do to perfect the way that they play. Lance Armstrong is an interesting case because if you think about it, no one has done seven Tour de France victories like he did, which was just amazing when he accomplished it. But how has this become an example of how we measure our behavior to stay within the bandwidth

of what's socially acceptable or normal? So, first of all, this was just an interview that always stayed with me. This is an interview I've been through in that time strong quite a few years back now, but most people mostly listen to or remember it because it was the interview where that's Armstrong was invited to admit publicly that he'd won those tour de France titles with the assistance of performance in hearts and drugs. And of course it was a big scandal at the time. But one of the things that really stayed with me about the interview was it lances explanation, which was essentially along the lines of what everyone else was doing.

And this is true. This is what you mean, you look at the peloton back then, everybody else was using EPO to enhance performance. And what that means is essentially what you have is this kind of bizarre scenario that unfolded at that time is cycling, because everybody else was doping. I meant that anyone could come in into this sport had to dope too. And so basically it wiped out any advantage that you had to the doping because everyone was doing it.

Right now it was making no one cyclist anymore likely to win, but of course you had these health complications and all the rest of it that made the sport extremely dangerous in those times, for no added advantage I give everyone decided one year to just Everybody stop then you would you need to have exactly the same competition and this is really interesting explanation to me and it said something I think quite profound about actually modern society and how if all you see all around you is people But if all you see all around you is people pursuing these unattainable perfectionistic standards and goals, then even though that's absurd, even though that's unhealthy, our instinct is to go with it.

Because living inside a culture, we are so consumed and surrounded by that culture that we cannot see the absurdities. It's only when we take a step back and we look closer, I mean, interrogate whether actually is what we're doing today healthy, is it making this happy, is it providing us with fulfillment and contentment, and we can answer those questions, I think, with a resounding no, if we look at the hedonistic hamster world that you talk about, there's kind of incessent need to do and have more. It isn't healthy, but we kind of escape it because everyone else is doing it. And I think that's, that was a really interesting interview. And it really, it was a bit of an epiphany moment for me when I was trying to unpack what's going on in

wider culture around perfectionism, because I think the parallels are very interesting. And I think that, that was an interesting microcosm of interesting mic because it was a broader problem if that makes sense. It does and for the US listeners, it's very akin to what happened here in Major League Baseball during the era that Barry Bonds and others played in it. And when you talk to some of those professional athletes, they all say, from the moment they entered the minor leagues,

everyone was using performance, enhancing drugs. And so if you wanted to compete at all, you were forced to do it, but it's the same thing that you brought up in cycling. All of a sudden, you have everyone doing it. So, yes. But Thomas, one of the things I've always wondered about perfectionism and I'm hoping from your research, you can talk more into this is perfectionism, something that we're born with, or is it something that we cultivate throughout our life? Yeah, it's a really good question. Actually, we're talking a lot about cultural factor, things going on in wider society and in the economy that way on I would need to be perfect. But if you actually look at the data, you'll find that there's a very heavy genetic influence on perfectionist

tendencies and perfectionist importance and behaviors about 30, 40% between person difference between people in levels of perfectionist can be explained by genetics. Now, that's actually quite consistent with what most personality research tells us about people's general dispositions and tendencies, up to around 50% actually of the way we turn out is breeder terming, so to speak, out of our control, can't do anything about it. Just the way we're born. But that does leave a lot for the environment to explain. So while that's still a lot about half and perfection a little bit less, for 40%, you're still looking at the majority of the perfectionism being explained between personism being explained by environmental

factors. So there's still quite a lot of the environment to explain. And that's why my book, my perspective on perfectionism really takes a deep dive into the cultural societal factors that are weighing on the need to be perfect. But it is important for listeners to be aware that there is also a heavy heritability factor here and if your parents are perfectionistic and your perfectionistic, well that probably isn't a coincidence, it's probably because you're born with some pre-deposition to carry those tendencies forward into your life. I first learned about a concept called effortless perfection about 18 months ago when I did an interview with Susan

Kane. And it came up because she was doing a lot of research on college campuses about her book from last year, Bittersweet. And she said when she went to Princeton, she started hearing primarily from female students this concept of of effortless perfection that has absorbed their lives from the time they were in high school to now being in an Ivy League. The way she described it to me was that people feel that in order to get into the Ivy League or your equivalent in the United Kingdom, that they have to not only have perfect grades, they have to get perfect boards to get into the school, but now they have to have extracurricular activities that showcase it, they have to have volunteer hours that showcase it.

And so all of a sudden, you're trying to emulate the standard that I think society is set for trying to achieve going to these schools that people aspire to do. And what I wanted to ask is how do the social connections that shape our formative experiences, such as this one where adolescence impact perfectionism in our lives? Oh, tremendously. You know what? I feel for young people today, because there is just so much pressure out there to excel. And it's not pressure that is kind of blown up in their own minds. It's real pressure. You have to do well at school. There's no alternative. This is your one shot to get into the best classes, which mean that you get into the best assessments, which mean you

got the best shot of getting into the best colleges, which are the only ticket to the elite professions. The ones that actually have wages growing year on year, things like tech, medicine, law, finance and all those sorts of things. Now, that's a very narrow set of professions, and only a very small percentage of young people will make it, but nevertheless, this is what we're setting up at the very beginning for young people to attain. And again, it goes back to what we were saying about these warped expectations. This sense that everybody can be in the 1%, ignoring the logical fallacy that they can only be a 1%, right? And most people, by the way way ain't going to make it. Now that's not

the, this isn't to say you should dampen your ambition and all the rest of it, but it's just to say that these expectations that we put in on young people are excessive, they're relentless. And I feel sorry for parents, I feel sorry for young people, I feel sorry for schools, I feel like yeah, have a certain amount of sympathy for the, the education institutions too, but I do think they could be doing more to dampen this fire a little bit. But the whole system really is wrapped in the sense that everybody has to excel, everybody has to achieve excessively high standards, and young people in turn know that, of course, we need to be perfect. Of course they do. But also, like you mentioned, this kind of

curious psychology where there is a need to be effortlessly perfect. That's to say, to show on the surface, that we're absolutely smashing it, that this isn't difficult, that we're taking these challenges in our stride, and we're moving serenely over the water, whilst underneath the reality, and we know the reality is, relentless mouse self-imposed pressure, late nights,

worries about how we're doing, at night scene students are so worried about how they're doing, that they won't even open their grade books. They won't open what they're great because they think that one bad mark is going to ruin their future chances. The catastrophization around setback and difficulty is so fearsome on young people now, because they're told from day one, you can't fail. You know, it bad grade is gonna move you backwards. You need to keep doing, you need to keep doing better. Holding them almost on tiptoes, all the time,

I just feel for them because I think that's pressure is crushing. It's in many cases overwhelming. And I see students come through my door, the university have made it through that very brutal selection process. And they, it bound with tension. And it's really after work so, so hard

to relieve it, to take it off, to deflate it. And yeah, again, it, but it goes back to what we're saying, and the, but the expectations in society, it's not just consumer culture, materialism, head and neck treadmill, it's expectations to do one in school and college to make something of ourselves in the world. And so yeah, it's a real big problem right now for young people and I write about some solutions in the book

but I think the biggest one really is try to precannise a society build what's called a barude based meritocracy. A meritocracy that allows all people to flourish and pursue their own passions and interests that are true to themselves and And then society that allows them to do, that doesn't funnel them into a very narrow set of professions where only those professions will allow them access to the good life or stability or security or whatever, but actually each and every child has their own skills, their own abilities, has their own interests and passions.

And it's really important that we try to create a society and an education system that allows them to one identify those skills and passions and to pursue them and make meaningful contributions to societies that align with their skills. I just don't think we live in that world right now, but that's, I think, relieving the pressure, it certainly would be helped by a more caring and compassion education system. I'm glad you brought up the testing. Here in the States, we have the SAT. I understand in England the tests that you take as you were just explaining. There's immense pressure because it really dictates what school

you go into. And I also spent a lot of time working and traveling in India. And I remember talking to a few of my friends who back in the day were trying to get into the top engineering programs in India. And they told me that there was so much pressure put on them by their families to do well on these tests that you would almost be an outcast if you didn't perform well on them. And it's interesting because I think when, whether

you call it perfectionalism or this over-achievement culture that we have, I think a lot of it gets ingrained from our parents and the expectations that they place on us, even so much that if our parents feel like they don't matter, they're going to pass that on to us. But also if our parents are perfectionists, they're going to pass that on to us as well. And our parents are perfectionists, they're gonna pass that on to us as well. And what I found interesting is you conducted a multi-generational study of perfectionism. And you elaborate on some of the key findings

and maybe any general differences or trends that you observed. I think it's really important to say upfront when we're discussing parenting that, just I've got so much empathy for the parents because this is a really difficult society to know, like, what's best? If you allow your kids to kind of cruise in this world, take their foot off the accelerator or whatever, then that could have really profound consequences downstream for their life chances because as I say, we in an economy that really unless you're there is no meritocracy right now for teachers, police officers, firefighters, people in who in solidly middle class professions just a generation ago, right. There is no meritocracy,

but they have seen no increase in living standards. In fact, they've just seen their wages shrinking in the context of inflation year and year while the elite professions are sail away in terms of their enumeration. So if you're a parent looking out into that world and your son or daughter expresses an interest to be a teacher or whatever, or a nurse, is that something that you're going to be pushing towards or is it, or is it a conversation while maybe this, but maybe it might be, if they're showing you talent for maths or whatever, an engineer, maybe it might be that you go into this profession or that profession. And so, and I completely understand it because it's so tough to know what's best because society pushes us into making decisions that

perhaps aren't ours. And so the intense pressure on not just young people but parents is so fear. So I have so much empathy because it's really difficult to know what to do, what to do for the best. But what I would say is that our research shows a couple of things that you can bear in mind when it comes to parents. These are broad philosophical ideas. They're not only hard and fast specific strategies. The first one really is to bear in mind that what young people really need is unconditional approval and that's consistency of approval and love. For example, if they come home from school and they've got an A grade and they've done really well, they're really happy to celebrate that.

Give them a hug, tell them how hard they've worked and praise that effort and show them that you're really proud of them. But equally at the same time, if they've come back home and they haven't done quite as well as they expected to, they will be disappointed, clearly that's just inevitable, but show them the same amount of love and affection. Be consistent with that approval at all times, tell them it's just one grade of many different grades that you're going to get, it's a learning opportunity, it's not indictment on you, it doesn't say anything about how much you matter to your teacher or your parents or whatever, this is just one solitary grade of many of others. And so that consistency of love and approval is

really important. And also try and be aware of your own perfectionism and your own aversion to mistakes. If you find that you're the sort of person that really worries about screwing up or find challenging situations really stressful, young people are are gonna pick up on that. They'll see that and they'll learn the mistakes, setbacks, challenges, things to be feared. And again, it's really important to be open about failure, be open about setbacks. When you screwed up, just talk about it with your family. Have an open channel line of communication

to what today was a bad day. Did a presentation, didn't go down very well. The pitch was not very well received. I didn't get the sale. Whatever it is, talk to your children about these things because they really do show young people that actually failure isn't humiliating. It's just very humanizing.

It happens in this learning opportunity we move on. So lead by example, an unconditional approval. I think are the main things to bear in mind when it comes to parenting these days. But as I say, the most important thing that recognizes that this is a really tough environment to bring up kids these days and each and every one of you is doing an amazing job. Okay. Thank you for that, Thomas.

And I wanted to cover a couple of specific things as it relates to perfectionism. The first would be social media. And I was wondering how much does social media play a significant role in shaping our perception of perfection? Yeah, social media for sure. Then social media perfectionism in our data seems to really take off around 2007, which has happened to be the time that I Apple released the iPhone

and their social media platforms became mobile in our lives 24-7. So there's certainly a consequential evidence that potentially there's a link between those social media platforms, smartphones and perfectionism. Not cause all but I would say there's strong browser suggests that what we're seeing in social media been beamed into our lives, there's perfect images of lives and lifestyles of the 1.1% 0.1%, I think you're impacting on that a sense of what's normal, what it should be expected, what we should be shooting for, what's obtainable and all the rest of it and certainly,

I think that's being internalized, particularly among young people, is a need to be perfect. But I would also say on social media, that doesn't necessarily mean you should throw the baby out of the bathwater, I think there's something remarkably say on social media that doesn't necessarily mean you throw the baby out of the bathwater. I think there's something remarkably positive about social media. And it's a regional incarnation. I say bringing people together around shared interests, sharing valuable information,

cementing offline relationships, right? Bringing forum to bring people together offline. All these social media can do all of these things. It's just the imperative right now is to capture our attention and spending through those platforms, which means by their nature now they're very addictive and then and they try to keep us online as much as they possibly can. And I think that's the issue right now. But at the same time, there is something I think we can hold on to your social media. Yeah, I think it's definitely driving some of the perfectionism, but I also think it has tremendous power to be very positive. And I was also hoping you could discuss the

relationship between procrastination and perfectionism. Yeah, so perfectionistic people extremely failure of earth as we talked about, they worry a lot about how they look, how they appear, how they're doing relative to other people. And that creates an interesting psychology. And one of the things that's baffled researchers, certainly baffled me was when you look at the data, perfectionism has a very weak relationship with performance. You'd think that these people would be really high achievers, but actually it doesn't seem to be born out in the evidence.

And the reason for that is twofold. One of the work on sustainability is hard so they burn out. But the second reason is linked to procrastination, which is the question you've asked. And what perfectionists do is really interesting when it comes to trying to push themselves forward to achieve goals, is that on the first attempt, whenever they do something, and they feel like they've got a baseline level of confidence, they will put everything forward to try to achieve the goal. That's where that high striving comes out. But the moment they can't set back

difficulty challenge or failure, this is when things get interesting. So when we put people in the lab and we expose them to some kind of failure, and then we ask them to do the activity again or the task again, non-perfectionistic people, they don't really change the effort in the second attempt, they just keep going.

But perfectionistic people do something really different. They withhold their effort, right? They just avoid. Because the guilt of the shame that they felt from that failure was so intense, so they don't want to feel that again, so they just completely take themselves away from it, right? Now, that's avoidance. Procrastination is linked to this psychology, because it's similar in the sense that burden or the cognitive strain of trying to do something really difficult is so intense, the feelings of worry and apprehension are so intense that they just don't want to feel those things. So they take themselves out to procrastinate, they do something else to distract themselves.

And of course, that avoidance, that procrastination is really anxiety management technique. It's not really, I think we think about procrastination is a time management problem. It's not really an anxiety management technique, it's not really, I think we think about procrastinations of time management problem, it's not really, it's an anxiety management problem, we're trying to manage anxiety and worry about failing through distraction. And what that means is that perfectionistic people really struggle to perform in the long term because they, yes, they put effort forward at the very beginning, but when things get challenging, they start to behold. And this is procrastination avoidance is one of the reasons why perfectionism isn't very strongly

correlation performance, contrary to popularly. And it's essentially because perfection is the people are sabotaging their chances of success to avoid that failure. So there's a really interesting link there between perfection and procrastination. OK, and I have just two final questions for you. In the third component of your book, you really advocate for embracing imperfection and trying to move away from the perfection trap that we're consumed with.

Can you provide some practical tips for the listeners or strategies to let go of the need for perfection and find contentment in good enough? Yeah, I can give you a couple of things that have helped me in my life and I know that there's a lot of evidence to support their efficacy. The first is really to break through that perfectionistic block or self sabotage

that we talked about just now and it comes to procrastination. Perfectionistic people will find it really difficult to let things go. They'll find it very difficult to put themselves into situations where they're quite likely to be judged, perhaps critically. So I'm thinking here, if we don't feel like we're very good speaker, we won't put a hand up to do a talk. If we doubt our abilities to write very well, we might not put ourselves up to write projects or presentation slides or whatever. It might

be that we feel uncomfortable in group settings, so we won't put ourselves forward to chair a meeting. It might be that we worry about how our performances are gonna be a praise, so we don't put ourselves up for that promotion. There are all sorts of fears that come in perfectionism that hold people back. The biggest thing you can do is make a commitment to yourself

today to put things into the world, to let it go when it's good enough. It doesn't have to be perfect. That presentation that you're writing, there are hundreds of ways that presentation is going to land positively, but there is no perfect way. So accepting that when something is good enough, it's good enough is really important and put it out into the world. Writing the book was very fair, a piece of me in that respect because I couldn't let it go. I wanted it to be bulletproof and then I did let it go and then I did get some bad feedback and it was okay. It wasn't as catastrophic as I thought it was going to be and that's the learning process

of putting yourself out there, putting something into the world and just letting it sit there because often it's the case. In fact, every time it's the case that catastrophe you've built up in your mind about how it's going to be perceived is really not what you think it is. So definitely this idea, feel the fear, do it anyway, so important. So make it commit me to yourself today tomorrow. If you've got something important that you're sitting on, that you're delivering on, that you're worrying about, just get it out there, get it out there and move forward, keep going. And the second thing I would say is you've got to try to work on those difficult feelings that come from failure and set back in challenge, because if you're going to put stuff out there,

if you're going to make a commitment, you just have to put stuff out there, and things are going to go wrong. And perhaps you're going to be critterized. And perhaps it's going to be times when you be a presentation didn't land, and then you didn't get the sale. Self-compassion is now so important in that context, because if you are going to put yourself out there,

you're going to have to make a commitment also to be kind to yourself. And so self compassion has got a lot of evidence and support of its efficacy. As health compassion is really about reflecting on your common humanity, that's your common imperfect humanity, realizing that nobody's perfect, can ever be made perfect, going to make mistakes, going to slip up. Things are going to happen to us that are outside of our control that create real difficulties in terms of our health and happiness. And as a consequence, we need to be kind any time, those things come into a lot of ourselves and about tell us it's okay. Remind us of all times that this is part of a bigger picture of a learning process, and it's

okay to slip up and hit setbacks. And finally, I would say reframe, reframe, reframe. Provisions of people think a lot in very black and white terms. They think that they have to do things, must be done, got to be done tomorrow. And next week, whatever. And I think sometimes it's important to reflect on those feelings, write them down. As I said, is it a have to? Or is it what would like to? And what are our priorities here? What actually needs to get done tomorrow? And what can we put off or even what can we take off the to-do list? Give ourselves permission to not do as much as perhaps we should. So it's self-reflection writing down our thoughts and reframing them into softer, kind of ways and

realistic ways to move forward. Those are the things I'd recommend. ways and realistic ways to move forward those things that recommend. Okay, and we started this whole interview out by talking about a lack of significance or mattering that so many people feel today. And today we've talked a lot about why self introspection is so vital to escaping this perfection trap. What are your hopes for the future regarding the discourse and awareness surrounding perfectionism and how do you hope a perfection trap will help people to live a more balanced and healthier life and not strive so much for excellence? That's a good question.

I think it's too far ahead. I think we do have our responsibility as individuals to recognize that we live inside this world, that actually these feelings are normal and natural, response to what is sometimes quite relentless, social conditioning in terms of you have to look at certain way, behaviors, certain way, performance or maybe have X amount of productivity in your office, these societal messages that are bombard with all the time. So I think the first thing is to recognize that and to decide on a different path. A path that isn't necessarily focused on perfecting, on excelling, but just on meaning and purpose, and pursuing our own interests and passions.

I'm not caring if we're not very good or if we're finding it tough, because if anything we do from scratch, right, we're not going to be very good. We're going to suck up and that's just normal. It's natural. But doing it anyway, because it gives us joy, it gives us meaning, gives us purpose. It's just pushing ourselves out of a comfort zone a little bit. I'm pursuing interests and passions that are truly hours. I think that's something I'd really recommend because that really is like taking a sledgehammer to perfectionism. It's really a case of knowing that there is, I have my own personal path and

that's what gives me joy and contentment rather than trying to follow all times interests and activities and aspirations that aren't truly ours. So I think that intringent motivation is really important. But also as a society, we also have to live in a culture and society that allows us to do that too, that recognizes that not everybody's going to be a stockbroker. And actually there's value in teachers and nurses, police officers, firefighters, and people who do incredible plumbers and electricians, people that do incredibly socially useful activities that align with their skillset and their passions. And that they should be rewarded too, that they should be renumerated fairly too, that they should have the permission to live a good enough life with dignity and purpose. There actually is value in all of us and whatever we choose

to do, hopefully, the lines of our interest, that we live in a society that allows us to do that and our contribution to society, whatever they may be to be recognized. So I think those are my two main closing messages. Okay. And Thomas, for the listener who wants to learn more about you, I will obviously have many links to the book in the show notes, but where is the central place that they can do? I would say, if you want to know more, just type into your Google, Satomas Curran, the perfection trap, That's where my book would come up and information about me will come up and yeah, please do. If you're intrigued by a copy, give it a read.

And if you do, I'd love to hear from you. Please do feel free to reach out. Tell me what you think of it. I'd love to hear from readers. So yeah, that's why you can find me. Well, Thomas, thank you so much for being here today. And congratulations on some of the endorsements that you got for this great book from Adam Grant

and my friend Dan Pink. It's been such an honor to have you on the show. Thank you, John. It's been a pleasure. I thoroughly enjoyed that interview with Thomas Grant. And I want to thank Thomas, Skrivner Press and Brook Craven for the honor and privilege of having him appear on today's show.

Links to all things Thomas will be in the show notes at passionstruck.com. Please use our website links if you purchase any of the books from the guests that we feature here on the show. All proceeds go to supporting the show. Advertiser deals and discount codes are in one convenient place. Passionstruck.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. You can catch the Passionstruck podcast on YouTube, both my channel at Johnner Miles

and also Passionstrike Cliffs. And I have some exciting news that my brand new book PassionStrike, which is about 12 powerful principles to help you unlock your purpose and ignite your most intentional life, is now available for pre-order at Amazon, Barnes and Noble, or wherever you purchase books. Links will be in the show notes. You can catch me on all the social platforms at John Hermiles where I post daily be in the show notes. You can catch me on all the social platforms at John Armiles where I post daily bits of information and inspiration. You can also sign up for our newsletter,

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You're about to hear a preview of the Passion Strike podcast interview I did with Dr. Vanessa Bonds, who's a social psychologist and professor of organizational behavior at Cornell University's ILR School. Dr. Bonds is the author of the eye-opening book, you have more influence than you think, where she draws from her original research,

it shed light on the powerful dynamics, and sent an influence. A lot of the studies I talk about in the book are about. These social comparisons we do where we fall short. A lot of psychology is about overconfidence and how. We take risks we shouldn't because we think that we'll surely be able to beat the lottery and make these things happen and that we're better at doing these calculations and other people. But when it comes to these sort of social contexts,

it turns out that we wind up comparing ourselves to these people who are the absolute most social people you could imagine. Remember that we rise by lifting out their social share of this show with those that you love and care about. And if you found today's episode useful on perfectionism, and definitely share it with someone who could use the advice that Thomas and I gave on today's show. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you've learned to show so that you can live what you listen to now. Go out there and become actions run. you