Patrick and the People - 11/2/24 PATP Presents: Patrick's After School Special w/ Bonnie Robertson

Episode Date: November 3, 2024

Special Guest: Bonnie Robertson

special. I'm super excited today because with me is Bonnie Robertson, my friend and attorney with Oswalt Noni or Robertson Oswalt Noni, correct? Correct. Okay. And she is an attorney. She's been an attorney here in Arkansas for a long time. They specialize in family laws, such as child custody, divorce, things like that. And today we're going to talk about her book, After the Wedding, A Divorce Lawyer's Top 25 Tips to Keep You Married. But first, tell us a little bit about you, you know, how you got into law and how that all came to be. Hi, Patrick. Thank you for letting me be on your show. I'm very excited. I'm Bonnie Robertson. I grew up in Greer's Ferry. Okay. And I'm a country girl, and I came down to Little Rock, and I've lived in Little Rock and the surrounding areas for most of my adult life.

I ultimately went to law school because I didn't want to be a cop. Okay. With my criminal justice degree. Got a law degree and started practicing family law, and that was about 24 years ago. And wow, 24 years. That's awesome. All right. Well, tell us three things about yourself that are not legally related that are just interesting things. Um, I have three children, okay. Adult children, one stepdaughter who's 32, and then two other adult children that, you know, aren't as good. No, not as good. They know I'm teasing, but our first one was, she was raised by lots of people, so she's got all kinds of good traits.

It takes a village, as they say, right? I love dogs. I love animals. I love animal welfare. A third one, I love to dance and travel and have a good time. Okay. Traveling, any place in particular that you recommend people go in the different places you've seen? Well, my favorite place to go, and I try to do it every few years, is go to Europe. Oh, that's awesome. That is awesome. What is there a particular area of Europe you like

over another? I mean, London, France, Germany. I mean, anything particular? Well, my heart belongs to Germany because I was an exchange student there in high school. Really? Yeah. I did not know that about you. Yeah. I was 16 years old, turned 17, was wild as hell over there. I was my host mom's only daughter. She had two sons. So you can imagine that I created quite a challenge for her. And we're still very close, my host parents and I. That's amazing. I go visit them as much as I can. Okay, that's really cool. Now, do you speak any of that to Spriggan's Dutch as they say? Yes, I am fluent. Really? Oh, yeah. In fact, when I left, according to my friends, you couldn't

tell that I was American. Wow. I really engaged in the culture and the language. It just came easy to me. Tell me, you know, as far as Germany versus American culture, what's different there? Well, a lot of things, but, you know, there are laws, the things that are stigmatized here, the taboo here around sexuality, around alcohol. I can tell you, like, in a global sense, they kind of have it on us in those ways. Okay. Their cultures are so, in my opinion, more enlightened about those issues. You know, there are a lot of similarities as well. Okay. You know, there are a lot of similarities as well, but as far as how it shaped me, it was just the different kind of laid back parts of their culture that I brought back here.

And frankly, you know, it informed how I raised my own kids. Wow, that's amazing. That's amazing. Now, let me ask you this. Tell me, what's a pet peeve of yours? Well, I have a lot. Don't we all? That probably doesn't surprise you. I think my latest is, okay, is pictures of, and this is going to be very controversial. Are you ready? I'm ready.

Throw it on me. Pictures of the groom, like, leaning over the bride. What do you call the dipping the bride right that the whole yes oh yeah and I know that's very controversial because that's often the bride's favorite photo but here's what I what plays in my head when I see that photo okay She's mine. Oh, it seems very Neanderthal in that way. Yeah, I got you. Again, I know that's controversial. No, that's just fun. All right. So, look, you know, obviously you deal with challenging situations with families, whether it's divorce, whether it's custody, whether it's all of the above. But, you know, sometimes as humans, we get in our own way.

What do people sometimes do, your clients, that make your job harder, even if they don't realize they're doing it? The hardest part of my job and the most challenging part of divorces is when people use their children as weapons or consider their children their own property. I'm like a broken record on that issue, but I can tell you it's the part of divorces and the crisis of divorce or paternity, any kind of child custody. It's the part that really is going to screw up the kids in a generational sense. They are going to have no idea what functional looks like because the parents just cannot break themselves at that. You know, I, I, I struggled with that. Uh, and I, and I think that probably helped me, uh, to, to have a divorce or two under my belt, uh, because I didn't have a very good

role model, uh, as far as what a relationship looked like. Now, my parents didn't divorce, they should have, but they didn't. And so there's a lot of domestic violence. There's a lot of arguing things of that nature, you know? And so as a kid, all I knew when I came out into the relationship world is, Hey, you stick it out. You know, you work it out no matter what. That's not the right answer. Matter of fact, in your book, you talk about the three A's that are game changers. Yes. I, you know, the book is my top 25 tips for otherwise relatively functional people.

The three A's are abuse, addiction, and adultery. And these tips, obviously, if one of those exists in a marriage or a relationship, these tips are not going to work. You're going to need. You're going to need help. You're going to need something more than that. Yeah. Or to divorce. And I'm not trying to encourage divorce, but those are three problems that just, you know,

some tips from me are not going to help you out. And so I don't purport to address that. No, all of those things. And I'm not saying couples can't overcome any of those because many couples have overcome all of those things, maybe all three of them. But if it's actively happening and you're not as a couple working to solve that, to end that problem, then, yeah, that that's that, you know, a book's not going to help you. Now, what's going to help you is to get involved, probably in some pretty serious counseling before you end up in jail, you know, or worse. Okay, so in your book, you coined a term, rotten seeds. Don't put those in there.

What are rotten seeds? The examples I use in the book are using the word divorce in fights or conflict, moving out, even if you think it's temporary. Well, especially if you think it's temporary. And I think maybe another one is calling each other bad names. Yeah. What do you argue? Yeah, you know, as I've made all mistakes, I think one can just about make, I did learn over time that, you know, having boundaries as a couple, if you want your

relationship to last, you have to take some things off the table and, um, you know, using the word divorce, uh, calling names, um, any name, you know, uh, is off the table for us, uh, for me and Laura, because, you know, we've said, hey, we're committed to this relationship, whatever it's going to take to work it out. And we don't have, you know, abuse, addiction or adultery in our relationship. None of us do. So we we just take that off the table, because to me, what happens is as soon as you say the word divorce, you lose your footing. You're not secure in the relationship. Your space is no longer safe to tell the person, hey, here's the problem I'm having in our relationship. I want to work through it.

You know, I agree. You know, and if it's if it is forever, once you let your own mind go there or a discussion go there, it becomes an option and it becomes an easier option. And the marriage goes along because you're going to have a lot of really shitty times. Yeah. And you don't want to add in the D word as an option. No. And what you said, temporarily moving out, in my experience, it's almost never temporary.

It's just a way station until you go to divorce. It's hard. And, you know, I've seen people come back from that before, but, and I also explained in the book that a very short distancing from each other, I'm a big fan if it's necessary, you know, so go to mom's house, hang out, you know, go take a drive, anything that, that, you know, may give you some space, I guess. Right. And the book is, it's informed mostly by my divorce practice. And I had a front row seat have a front row seat to hundreds of relationships that have gone south so I really have seen that once people take those certain steps it's it's hard to come back from that now one of the things that I know

about you and I know about me is both of us are part of what's known as a blended family. And it is a different world when you involve children from a previous relationship. And there are a lot of, you know, pratfalls, a lot of issues and challenges. It's just more difficult, honestly. And when you make that choice, it is a more difficult choice. It may be a choice you make lovingly and willingly, but it does have challenges. Now, you say in your book that the person you marry who helps raise your kids needs your fierce protection. That's a powerful statement. What do you mean by fierce protection? You know, becoming a step-parent, and I tell this often to clients and their new spouses or subsequent spouses,

but becoming a step-parent was one of the hardest, sometimes most miserable roles I've ever taken on. Now, my stepdaughter now is this wonderful 32-year-old woman, and I love her so much, but there were a lot of really hard times. Through those times, my husband instinctively, I think, I don't know that it was even conscious, instinctively protected my role, my relationship with my stepdaughter. And, and, and we were a team and without that, things would have been a lot harder for me because I always think of in terms of this beautiful little girl was always going to be here and with us and available. But my marriage and his marriage to me wasn't guaranteed. No. And, you know, whether people want to talk about it or not, um, you know, sometimes just instinctively look, kids, kids are not dumb. Um, and if you've got

two different households, you know, dad's in this household, mom's in this household, And if you've got two different households, you know, dads in this household, moms in this household, they know the rules are different. They know things are different. They see and hear and understand things way more than I think people give them credit for. And whether by design, sometimes they can exploit these weaknesses. And it can be very difficult on the step parent. And it can be very divisive between, you know, the parent and step parent. I agree. And, and, you know, you think about the dynamic with the ex spouse or the, the, the other parents, if there was never a marriage and those are there, it's rife with

situations where the new spouse, um, kind of can be trampled on, but I'll tell you as well, can also overstep a lot of bounds. I was guilty of that. And I know that my husband's first wife would probably agree. We're good friends now. We're good. Thank goodness. But we weren't always.

And there were a lot of times where just by virtue of not knowing any better, I really made some mistakes in not knowing where that boundary was. Exactly. Now, no one's perfect and it's always going to be difficult, but my husband was always really good at protecting. Even if I was a little bit too active, he was always good at protecting me. And I really am thankful for that. I don't know if this even really falls under the same category, but I feel like Laura was protecting me in ways because, you know, when we were first married, and God love her, it was a lot to deal with, you know, dealing with, you know, moms and stuff. And look, I don't like my oldest son's mom and she doesn't like me. I never mealy-mouthed her in front of my kids because I never thought it was a good idea.

But what did happen was this particular person would often call me and want to relitigate everything on the phone every time. And it's not that I wanted to. For some reason, I felt like I had to, like I had to take that call. I had to answer those questions. I had to deal with that. And Laura said, listen, I think that you're, you're, you're, you're talking about things that aren't relevant anymore to your relationship. And she's taking advantage of this. And she said, I think it would be better if you just created an email account. And the only thing that you communicate with or about is anything that he needs, you know, pertaining to school or clothing or et cetera, et cetera, and nothing else. And that changed my life.

It literally changed my life because I was no longer involved in arguments or relitigating the past or defending whatever the actions were. It's just, here's the business at hand that you need to know. And that was all we talked about ever. And that worked for many, many years and eliminated all the arguments. Yeah, and to me, giving or receiving information about the children, that's about it. That really is the only thing that's necessary. It's going to help keep that second or third marriage healthy because it's not going to be the subject at the dinner table every single night. That's another thing that statistically the subsequent marriages end more than the first.

I mean, they are more likely to fail. You wouldn't think that you think people would be better at it, but you insert those dynamics of the blended family and it is very stressful. And if you're not careful and good stewards of it, it's not going to last. Well, and in fact, you could be better at marriage in your second marriage, but you don't have any experience with blended families. And that is a ripple in the pond that's so deep and so powerful that if you're not effectively communicating with each other, it can become a huge problem.

Right. You know, because if one thinks the kid's running over you and the other doesn't, you've got to communicate and figure out how to, you know, get together on that. It's very important. So in your book, one of the things I saw, and I just twitched a little bit, but not too bad. But what the hell do you mean when you say, hey, you got marriage problems, it's your fault? I think that's probably pretty triggering for a lot of people. But if you really think about it under, again, other than the three A's, any kind of ongoing problem or conflict in the marriage generally takes two players at least.

Yes. If I cannot figure out where I'm at fault, what am I doing that's creating or contributing to this problem? If I can't focus on that and admit it, it's going to be a lot harder to resolve that problem. Now, I need my husband to do the same for his part. You know, it's got to be mutual. Quid pro quo, right. Yeah. Yeah. And I, in my divorce clients, often I hear stories where in my, in my analysis, no one ever really took responsibility. And keep in mind, I'm not trying to judge them, but I just observe. But no one ever really just stopped and said, here's what I'm going to do to change.

What are you going to do to change? Well, and I can give you, in my relationship, a very good example of where I have to take accountability. And it's one of those things where I have to do all the time. Still, I have to be very cognizant of who I am because and Laura describes it well when when there is a disagreement she's the kind of person who wants space she wants to be left alone she wants to to be away from the tension and just clear her head I want resolution so I become a car salesman. What can I do to make you happy right now? You know, and I want to work through it now and she's not ready. And so if I force that hand,

then it just becomes much worse. You know, so I've learned to remind myself, hey, you know, you may want resolution now, but she doesn't. She needs the space to get herself together first. Otherwise, she's going to say something that she doesn't. She needs the space to get herself together first. Otherwise, she's going to say something that she doesn't feel good about. Right. I'm you. I always, I don't need time. I know exactly how I feel and I want to talk about it right now. But I know if I push it too quickly, then again, I'll get nothing productive from the other side. No, it's probably going to be worse. It's probably going to ignite something else. And I'm going to be reminded why I always put myself in this situation by doing this, you know. I call it learning how to fight. You have to learn how to fight. You know, there are

rules. We set some pretty healthy boundaries for ourselves in that, you know, we don't talk about divorce. That's not a word that we throw around casually at all because once you do you know you lose footing you don't feel secure look if anything a marriage should be and and look we're all guilty all marriages have moments you know peaks valleys all that but ultimately in in an ideal situation it's a safe space for you to communicate your feelings especially to the person you've chosen to spend your life with. And if you feel like they're pulling the rug out, they're going to leave you, they're going to bounce, then all of a sudden you don't feel safe in that scenario anymore. Or, you know, when you get to

the point you call names, and that's something that we just will not do, you know, because there's just no need for it, no matter how mad you get. And I'm not saying we've never failed and messed up. Of course we have, you know, we're humans, but as a rule, we do not engage that way. And it, it usually means that, that one of us walks away for a little bit and goes, okay, you know, let's get, let's get this worked out. Children come second to the marriage. You say, how, how, how are children children some people say they stay together for the the gift i have always believed that if my children are the center of my universe my marriage will fail so the opposite opposite of that is my marriage is the center of my family my children are or they orbit that

relationship that marriage yeah in our relationship we come first so that they will have an intact family and you know a lot of people took issue with that tip but I will you know I'll die on that hill every day that if and and a and a lot of people that resonated with, because they were like, you know, I had people come in, I have a lot of people who come in and they forgot how to be married because they were so busy with the kids being a parent to resonate with people. And if you're in, if you're doing that, you have to really make an effort, not to the marriage will die. I, you know, it will, you know, I mean, you, you look just like a plant, you got to feed and water it. And, and, and a marriage is no different. You know, when we, we all get caught

up in what I would call the mundane details of life, you know, we got to get them to soccer practice. We've got to make dinner. We've got to clean the house. We've got to run the errands, got to pay the bills. And it seems like that a lot of couples put themselves behind all of that. that a lot of couples put themselves behind all of that. And I think that is a really bad idea. I think that being a strong couple, being committed to each other, loving each other, and putting that first is not only healthy, but it's a healthy roadmap for your kids to follow.

Agreed, agreed. And for me, you know, I liked that roadmap because my parents weren't a good couple. I mean, I'm not telling you that my parents didn't put any good values or things. I mean, clearly, I'm not a horrible human being or I don't think so. But it did not teach me how to conflict or how to resolve conflict. It was just, you know, even if you have conflict, no matter how bad you stay together, you just keep going, you know, no matter how miserable you may be. And that's probably not a real good formula for a marriage. Right. And if you are not continually reminding yourself why you like that person, why you're attracted to that person, why you got together in the meantime, you'll forget. I think maybe one of the most

powerful things I ever read and I've read or listened to things on tape from different, you know, people who talk about marriages or relationships or even understanding your own issues, you know, is that it's a choice every single day. Oh, for sure. It is a choice when you wake up in the morning to love that person or not love that person. But it has to be a conscious choice. You cannot be unconsciously involved in a relationship. You have to consciously make the decision that I do love this person and I'm going to do what it takes to make this work.

Again, notwithstanding the three A's that we've already talked about, right? Yeah. Yeah. Uh, the book after the wedding, a divorce lawyer's top 25 tips to keep you married is amazing. And it would be a wonderful gift to a young couple, a new couple, a good couple who are, you know, just always looking for ways to be better. Not only that, she's left some amazing space in the back for notes and things like that, that you may want to put pictures. It can be a really neat scrapbook too, but we've got a promo code for you. If you notice where the link, where the stream is, that you can click that code is a promo code only for

the people and we'll get you a discount look she she can't discount it forever for you so don't wait around get this book uh bonnie robertson now if you do need bonnie and and we all hope that you don't you know but but reality is reality sometimes relationships fail could be custody issues uh look you can reach her at robertson-law-firm.com. It's Robertson, Oswalt, and Noni. Their law firm has been around for a long time. And Bonnie, as you can see, good people, not pretentious in any possible way, just a good human being and a good friend of mine. And I think she could really help you if you have a need for that. Thanks for coming in. I'm so glad that you did. Be sure and check her book out.