PBD Podcast - Billionaire Investor Leon Cooperman | PBD Podcast | EP 137

Episode Date: March 24, 2022

In this episode, Patrick Bet-David is joined by Danielle DiMartino Booth along with Billionaire Investor Leon Cooperman to discuss the idea of luck, a possible recession, gas prices, crypto and much more..  TOPICS Luck vs Hard Work  How to rewrite the tax code Is a recession imminent? Thoughts on Trump Goldman Sachs/Jamie Dimon Gas/Inflation Biden cyber attack Bitcoin & Crypto Leon Cooperman is an American billionaire investor and hedge fund manager. He is the chairman and CEO of Omega Advisors, a New York-based investment advisory firm managing over $3.3 billion in assets under management, the majority consisting of his personal wealth. Danielle DiMartino Booth is a Founder & CEO of Quill Intelligence. DiMartino Booth set out to launch a #ResearchRevolution, redefining how markets intelligence is conceived and delivered. To build QI, she brought together a core team of investing veterans to analyze the trends and provide critical analysis on what is driving the markets – both in the United States and globally. Text: PODCAST to 310.340.1132 to get added to the distribution list To reach the Valuetainment team you can email: [e-mail] Patrick Bet-David is the founder and CEO of Valuetainment Media. He is the author of the #1 Wall Street Journal bestseller Your Next Five Moves (Simon & Schuster) and a father of 2 boys and 2 girls. He currently resides in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/pbdpodcast/support

Fantastic. So folks, we have a special show for you today. We have the great Daniel de Martina Booth here with us to my right and to my left. We have Leon Cooperman whom we talked about on a podcast. I want to say, I don't know, two months ago, Tyler, we talked about Leon Cooperman and article came out the moral calculations of a billionaire. Like, what did I do wrong as a billionaire? Leon being a billionaire himself, maybe you've given all of it the way. I don't know if you've given all of it. In the process. In the process.

Given it all the way. Not easy. Not easy. I bet. 25 years at Goldman, partnered there. 25 years would all make a hedge fund manager. You started it there. And then now you're trying to give away all your money.

That's your story. There's no shortage of worthwhile organizations. I'll succeed. I've been very lucky, and people ask me, where do I attribute my success to? I started out in the South Bronx. I'm the first generation of my family born America. My father came to America from Poland at the age of 13

as a plumbers apprentice, no formal education. And I went to public school in the South Bronx, high school in the South Bronx, high school in the South Bronx, and then I followed the advice of Harlem Screly. I went west, and I went to college in the West Bronx, part of the city, University of New York. And I've been very lucky. And people ask, what do I treat my success to?

I say, luck, hard work, I did work very hard, I still work very hard, and intuition. So the hard work and luck is easy to understand. Intuition requires more explanation. So I give them two examples of intuition, which is important. Back in the 60s, if you finish your major and minor in college in three years, you were allowed to count your first year of medical or dental school to your fourth year of college

and get a separate degree. And in the summer of 1963, I took physical chemistry at the University of Pennsylvania to finish off my major, my major was chemistry. And then I enrolled in the University of Pennsylvania dental school in August of 1963. And after eight days, this is intuition now, I start to wonder if I was going down a path

that was fully committed. So it was a very traumatic time because I paid room and board for a year. I paid tuition for a year. My father made rest and peace was pissed as hell at me. When I told him I wasn't sure I wanted to go to dental school. The only guy that appreciated the significance of the decision was Glen T. Nigerin, who is deceased. He was a dean of Hunter, had approved my matriculating back

and to undergrad with school. And he said, very heroic decision. Of course, you can come back. And I had all electives available. And I took 10 courses in my senior year in economics. Got 10 A's. I never look back. That's intuition, because it's a very difficult thing.

It basically, walk away from ruin board and tuition. And I drew my initials LC into $1200 worth of equipment, but they tell you think in a way of disappearing the laboratory. And then a second example of intuition, back in the 1960s, Wolfstreet was at a very high point. And basically I had 16 job offers, a very different environment today. And 16 job offers. Yeah, well, I was at a track to package,

at a six month old kid, so I was a serious guy. I knew what I wanted to do. I was beta gamma sigma, I was Wall Street Journal student achievement award, and I was straight A's in finance. And Goldman was the fourth best offer I had financially. Who was the best one? I don't remember. I'm not sure, Lazar, or somebody like that.

Maybe, Merrill. What year is that? 1966, I was interviewing. Got it. And so, I'm very anal, and I'm very reliable. If I say I'm going to be in your studio at nine o'clock, I was here at nine o'clock. I was actually a little earlier. And I got a call from Bob Dampworth, who is the gentleman that extended the offer to me,

and said, Lee, we're disappointed we haven't heard from you. What can we say? It's a problem if you answer to you. I was very knowledgeable at the Compound Interest tables that Union Carbide had a centurion at the time, and the offer was for 12,500. I said, do you think I can make $25,000 in five years, which is 15% compound, a double? And he said, if you work hard to keep your nose clean, I think you could do it.

Because I tell you why I liked everybody at Medigolman, even though you're my fourth best-offer financially, come with Goldman. And that turned out to be a great decision, because one of the few firms that didn't change their name, I got elected to the partnership in 1976. 10 years later. Yeah, nine years later.

And basically, when I got elected the partnership, the firm had a record year. They earned $40 million in 1976. And when I retire 14 years later, they earned 1.8 billion. That was the year for the whole run. And you looked through the death of equities. Yeah, yeah. And I was in 1982, I think, covered the business week. Yeah. Yeah, actually 72, maybe. The other cover that was Duma Business Week was the one with a, my hero in life was Henry Singleton, the founder of Teladine. And the guy was absolutely brilliant, a small guy,

ever dealt with. And in August of 1982, basically, business week had him on the cover, picked his picture as Icarus, the mythical Greek god that flew too close to saw those wax wings melt in the crushed earth. cover, pictured as Icarus, the mythical Greek God, that flew too close to the sun, whose wax wings melted and he crashed earth. I run him a seven-page letter saying how foolish they were. The sky was really a genius, and Warren Buffett got a whole of it and sent me a letter.

I call this one of my big mistakes in life because he sent me a letter which I framed in 1982. I framed it by him by a stock. If I framed his letter, I must have thought very well of him, right? And way before he was viewed as the genius, which he is. And he sent me a letter dearly. I always enjoy the quality of your writing, the quality

of your thinking. You later, the business week retail time was 100% of the market best regards weren't. I framed that letter, it's hanging in my office world to this day by Never Board of Stock, which is a big mistake, a big miss. Never bought the stock. Never bought it, but big miss. But if you thought so well of them to hang a letter from them

on the wall. You should have bought some of this stuff. Yeah, that was a big miss. That was a big miss. That means you don't walk on water. You're not poor, which is good. There's some. In this business, if you don't make mistakes, you're either a liar

or you don't make decisions. Absolutely. I got a question for you. So you said luck, hard work, intuition. If you were to, you're seem like your data guy, for sure, your data guy, what would you say percentage wise? Because a lot of people say it's 80% luck. Some people say it's 80% hard work.

What would you say with your experience? I don't know, 64, it'd be different. 60 luck, hard work. 60s hard work. How do you work the luck you get? OK, so fine. That's the truth. How do you work the luckier you get? Okay, so fine. That's the truth. And then where you put intuition?

I'm very important. In my case, it was paramount importance. You know, you got to go what you got. And I tell these young people today, I do a lot of talking at colleges. You know, basically, you got to basically have good intuition. You have to have good judgment. You can't teach that, though.

No, but listen, all throughout life, we all have setbacks and what makes us successful. How you handle the setbacks? I've had my setbacks and I came roaring back. What's your biggest one? Well, I hired a guy at a Goldman who turned out to be a crook and violated the Foreign Cruff Practices Act and implicated the firm. we knew nothing about it.

The government is a bunch of criminals, because they try to, you know, they don't want to know the truth, they just want to basically embarrass you. And I had to fight through that, and I won in the end, but it was very, very difficult, situate very quickly. And a billion dollars of capital left the firm but you know we came back. That's the comeback. So, question in regards to capitalism, you've been around for a while and you've seen how

media presents the wealthy. Socialists are not a new thing, they've been around for a while, they've been doing this for a while. I saw one of your quotes in this article with what do you call it, with a wild po that you did and the other gentleman that did the any vote which I thought it was pretty fair you said one quote here you said capitalism has flaws but socialism has no benefits well I quote Winston Churchill he said the main vice of capitalism and even

distribution of prosperity the main vice of socialism is the equal distribution of misery one of my other heroes in life is Ken Langone, who is one of the finest human beings. He's probably the most fabulous guy. She haven't read his book, you gotta read it. I love him. I read it. He and I have a lot in common. His father was a plumber along I, when my dad was a plumber in the Bronx. And I think the world of Ken. And Ken says he'd like to take his private plate and fly these young kids that think socialism is superior to capitalism to Venezuela and Cuba and see what it's all about.

I went to Cuba about six or seven years ago in a mission and you know it takes three hours to get from the from the suburbs to downtown to get to their work because they have no organized transportation system. The cell phones, of course, I think $3.85 a minute, this is five years ago. They all drive around 1955 Chevrolet. $3.45 a minute? $3rolet. $3.45 a minute? $3.85. $3.50.

Five years ago. Five years ago. And they can't afford it. And the only capitalist in the country are the hookers. Wow. I lived in Venezuela. I mean, I was witness to the craziness before Chavez came on.

And there's something to be said about, you know, how desperate people get when there's an inequality divide in the United States like there is, but that's not the solution. Not the solution at all, you know. Most well-changed though. What I'm trying to find out with you is,

so 25 years Goldman, 25 years Omega, 1966 is when you took the job offer with 12,500 with 15% rate growth over five years you make $25,000 and I'm assuming you made it. I made $180,000 in the fifth year. Great. So 90 year they have that big, you know, you become a partner or $40 million and then $1.8 billion you've been through the howl ride as you went through and then start your

own company. The relationship between the capitalists and media and the youth, there's always been a relationship, right? There are more poor people than rich people and the politicians like to play that up. I had this bad with a Liz with Warren, who I consider a politician in the worst sense of the word. So I gave a speech at a conference about three or four years ago

at the time which we were very extraordinarily in the polls. The moderator asked me what did I think the market would do if Elizabeth Warren won. And I said we'll go down 20%. Next day not knowing anything about me she tweets, Leon. I'm only looking for 2% is the wealth tax which is complete bullshit. Give others a shot the American dream. So I think long and hard and I decide know, Michelle Obama made a comment when they go low, we go high. And I send her a very, very good five page letter, which I'd recommend if you don't have you get it.

In fact, it was so good that Larry Summers, who's liberal economists and a very bright man, calls me up and says, you know, if you submit that paper in a class I gave it hard, but I give you an A plus, not an A plus. What is she right? Next day, no, doesn't address anything I wrote in the letter, which was very respectful, very balanced,

until we all got to work together to fix the problem. She comes back and says, inside trader, where I had this problem with the government, I won the case, and own Stock and Naviant, which was irrelevant to the situation. She doesn't like student loan companies and made no attempt to address the substance of my letter. And so I looked at as a politician

the word since the word. Then a year later, she invites me to fear me before one of her committees in Washington. I turn it down and she says on TV, I was afraid to meet with her. Now I wrote another letter. I said, I'm not afraid to meet with you, but I sent you a very serious letter.

We're basically somebody commented it was an A plus paper and a liberal economist, and you distit and never responded to it. I'll meet you in any program on TV to debate you. How do you get to be a billionaire in the economy? Basically, you get to be a billionaire where you develop a product or service that the world needs, and you get rewarded for it.

And most billionaires, I know, give the money back to society. And I love telling the story. I'm very friendly with Bernie Marcus, who lives in my community in Florida. And Bernie, I think, was terminated by Sandy Segalov on a Wednesday night. He calls up Ken Langeone in tears, saying I got three kids, a big mortgage, I have nowhere to come.

And then go, lose it, tough guy. Yes. He says, what the hell are you moaning about? I'll raise you money, you'll open your super store. So he gets 40 families to put up $50,000 each, raises $2 million. The market cap of home, the book today, is over $300 billion. Ken and Bernie have given way giving away billion dollars to charity both I think have taken a

giving pledge with Buffett there are three thousand employees at home depot that are worth over a million dollars as a result of stock if you can explain to me what's wrong with that picture you know I believe in the progress of what you're going fast folks I don't know if you cut that over three thousand employees who have a net worth of a million dollars plus because of a capitalist got together and did this. Please continue. And so you broke what you had thought, but basically, he said, what are you crying for?

Here's a month in the woods, not there's 3,000 millionaires. But basically, I'm saying, if you tell me what's wrong with that picture, the world is better up because the Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos, Larry Ellison, Bernie Marcus. They're amazing employers. You know what's crazy in that book? I love capitalism. I recommend it to a lot of people. There's a story he tells.

I think I want to say Ken's dad died at 62 years old, maybe 63. And he says, his dad died from a basic, we could have saved him. He says, I've been on blood thinners. I don't know how long he's been on blood thinners. He says, I've been on blood thinners, I don't know how long he's been on blood thinners. He says, I've been on blood thinners since 50s or since I was 60. He says, if capitalists, because of capitalism, we now have blood thinners,

where my dad would have lived in additional 20 years, because I think Ken is in his 80s right now, late 70s early, 85s. 85, yeah. So think about a capitalist, creates a business. He's a great shape though. Go to Jimmy Day. He goes to church a business. He's a great shape though. Go to the gym every day He goes to church every day. He's a very unique guy. He's a very unique guy. He's a very special young man

I I was inspired by but the part I want you to unpack and educate us I know the story about Elizabeth Warren. This is me. I'm 43. I lived in Iran 10 years I saw what happened when they divided divided Iran and then there was a fall I went to Germany. I've been here. I've seen from 1990 to today. That's the politics I know I came here November 20th 1990 and I grew up watching the life of the rich and famous It wasn't as it was aspirational to be a real estate mogul to be wealthy to be somebody today to me It's different because they're being bash is. Is that just a new thing for us? It always been like this, is it worse today than ever?

It's getting worse because income disparity has been greater. Exactly. And the income disparity to some degree results from government policy. In the 2008 economic downturn, Bernanke, head of the Fed at the time, said, we've got to get the economy turned around. What's the best got to get the economy turned around. What's the best way to get the economy turned around

is to create wealth. How do you create wealth? You get to stock market up. Trouble with 80% of stocks, but only about 20% of the people. Okay, and then we spent the next 15, 20 years trying to get the money back from the wealthy people by having a negative return on savings,

which is a disincentive. We've had screwed up policies. I listen to these people. We don't need a wealth tax, raise the marginal income tax, get rid of 1031, which enables these real estate guys to roll forward and definitely get capital gains taxation, eliminate carried interest, special taxation for hedge funds and private equity firms. That would be huge. Get rid of the loopholes. You know, I have no problem paying more in taxes.

But what I love quoting in Tom Misoel, the black conservative economist, he says, in this era of social justice, what is your fair share of what someone else has worked for? Now you speak to Bernie Sanders, who's a communist, he's not a socialist, he's a communist, he says a mortal tax rate of 90%. You speak to a list with Warren, she says 70%, you rate of 90%. He speaks to a list of warrants, he says 70%. He speaks to Paul Krugman, New York Times, 64%. I'm on the work six months for the government, six months for myself.

I have no problem with progressive income tax structure. I think the biggest question we have to confront as a nation today is what should the maximum tax for you be on wealthy people? Because that will define the revenue yield to the government. The government's got a size themselves, so that revenue yield. And I'm on the work six months for the government, six months for got a size themselves, so that revenue yield. And I will only work six months for the government six months myself, and that sounds

about right and fair. Beyond that, I think it becomes confiscatory. I want to give away, I work for my money, I want to give it away, I don't want the government giving it away. So, you know how sometimes the progressive will say, well, you know, that's all good and dandy, you don't want to go to 64% or 70% or 90% and you call and Bernie Kaminas how about the fact that for 40 years the top line taxes you know was income taxes was 90% and how did America make it and middle America was doing better you'll hear a progressive saying that what's your rebuttal

to that well back then you had enormous deductions which have now been eliminated so it's that me Tell us what that looks like. Well, you have a lot of right-off. You can go in oil and gas ventures and real estate ventures and other forms of deducting expenses against your income. So your effective tax rate was not nearly the number that they talked about. I think it gets to be a question of equity.

You work 12 months a year. What is the government's share of that? What should it be? And I think if you work six months for yourself, six months, the government sounds about right to me. And look, the end of the day, if you think about it, the wealthy people, there's only four things you can do with money. I observed this many, many years ago.

The first thing you can do with money is you could spend it on yourself. You buy homes, you buy cars, you buy art, you buy planes. I married 57 years the same woman. She was an educator for 35 years, very purposeful. And basically, she and I have the same view that material possessions brings with it aggravation. So we're kind of less as more. I drive a Hyundai, I don't drive a Bentley, or a Tesla, or a Rose Royce. I give away 100 Bentley's a year, charredably. So I couldn't spend my money. So the first thing you do in money is spend on yourself, I'm not an art collector, I missed that game.

Like I miss one puppet, I miss the art game. And I'm not into professional sports, I don't buy teams. Second thing you do in my give to your children. But my opinion, after you have a lot of money, which I developed, a lot of money over the many years, giving all your money, your kids a mistake because you deprived them of self-achievement. I have two terrific kids. You know, very different. One has a PhD in environmental sciences, but he worked for his PhD.

The other one has an MBA from Wharton Graduate, five-bedded capital. Respect. And he worked very hard. And I never gave my kids money until they were older. And they didn't need. What age? What age was it? In the 40s. Oh, you didn't give them the money until you... So they had to make their own money to afford it?

Yeah, well, you don't want to pride them yourself, achievement. How's your relationship with them? Excellent. They come home. The only better relationship we have is with their kids. Yeah. People ask me all the time, what's the greatest gift you can give to your children?

Financial independence. My kids still come home. Did the grandkids, was the ones you ever promed with? No, no, I said, no, I have no prom. I have a terrific family. I said, a friend of mine who just recently passed away said, if he knew how much during Germany he'd have from his grandkids, he never would have had kids, he just said, had grandkids.

But no, I have three grandkids, 24-year-old, 21-year-old, and a 13-year-old, and a terrific kids. And I'm very close with them. And so I'd say the first thing you do in money is spend yourself on not a big spender. And I'm not cheap, but there's nothing I want. Anything I want I can get, I can not cheap, but there's nothing I want. You know, anything I want I can get. I can afford it, but it's nothing I want.

It's the thing you do with money, you give it to your children, and I explain that that's a mistake if you have a lot of money. Third, you do it your money, you give it to the government, but only your smuck, you give it to the government money, you don't have to give them, you pay your taxes as a taxpayer, but you don't volunteer to pay them more. And the fourth thing you do with money is recycle back in society, and to try and make the world a better place. And that's why I've elected to do it in my best book of my money.

And I get a great deal of enjoyment. Next to seeing my kids and my grandkids grow old when health and in purpose, I'd say helping others less fortunate is highlighting my life. What are your favorite causes? Well, it's not the biggest number, but the one that I like the most because it's impactful is a cup of minkowat's cows. It's not the biggest number, but the one that I like the most because it's impactful is Cooperman College Scholars. So many years ago, I made a decision to put $25 million into a fund to send 500 kids to

college. The criteria was, and you had to live in an SS count in New Jersey where you have a home. You had to be academically qualified. I'm big on equal opportunity, but not equal outcome. Certain kids shouldn't go to college, a bit of being tradesmen. Third thing is you have to have a financial need. I'm met by government. And fourth, you have to show the initiative in a role

in a free three-week pre-college program designed by Franklin and Marshall, which explains these kids what to expect in college. So when I gave them the 25 million, I said, look, I know the statistics did not encouraging. 35% of newer kids went to college, only 5% graduated. I said, I busted my butt for this money. I'm not going to throw it down a rat hole.

You got to show me an improvement. Well, first cohort graduated and thanks to Twinkle Morgan and Norm Atkins who run the program for me, we had a 73% graduation rate, which is competitive nationwide. So I gave them a second, 25 million. So I gave him 50 million to send a thousand kids to college. And you're really changing lives. The average lifetime earnings of a college graduate is about a million dollars plus more than a non-cold graduate. Plus, you give them skills to be more competitive in the world.

So I've done that. More recently, I say this with a laugh, they swapped the same for a Jew. But I gave gave 100 plus million dollars to St. Bonembas Medical Center, which is now called Coupon Mimbombas. I gave a large gift to Boca Regional Hospital. I gave a very large gift from the Jersey Performing Arts Center. So, a whole bunch of things. There's no shortage of people that are looking for money.

Very honorable, what you've done with all that given. I think a lot of times people forget like when you make money, what are you gonna do with that money when you die? Straubs don't have pockets. Yeah, the money's eventually gonna go back into the market. It's eventually gonna go into charity, it's gonna go to family, it's gonna go somewhere. And even when nowadays with the estate taxes,

the government's still gonna end up getting some of the money. The question becomes, who does better with money? The free market enterprise or the government? And if it's getting some of the money. The question becomes, who does better with money? The free market enterprise or the government? And if it's, I know that answer. We know the answer to the question, but you and I also know that we gotta give a little bit

to the government to get military, to get some of the work that they do. If you had, you know the tax code very well. If you had a structure for tax code that would benefit and change the gap, middle income, upper class, the wealthy, how would you change the tax code? Well, I think I believe in the progressive income next structure. I think we just got to get rid of the loopholes. As I said, 1031 enables all these real estate

entrepreneurs to roll forward and definitely capital gains. Get rid of that. Let them pay their taxes. In my industry, there's this carried interest thing. It's really ordinary income. Get rid of that. And you know, Schumer talks about taxing the wealthy people. He's a New Yorker. My guess is he's been responsible for that legislation

not happening because a lot of real estate people live in New York and a lot of the private equity people operate in New York. We got to operate with more enlightened interests rather than enlightened self-interest. I want to get your thoughts, both your thoughts on a couple of stories that's coming out here. So Carl Icon, this is a CNBC story that came out this week. Carl Icon says there very well could be a recession or even worse. Famed the investor Carl Icon said to the Uneconomic downturn could be the under or even worse. Famed Investcraft, Iconcetusia, on economic downturn

could be on the horizon, and he is loaded on protection against the steep sell-off in the market. I think they're very well could be a recession or even worse. Iconcetus, the embassy's closing bell to Scott Webinar. I have kept everything hedged for the last few years. We have a strong hedge on against the long positions, and we try to be activists. To get that edge, I'm negative as you can hear, short term, I don't even predict the founder

and chairman of Carl Lyconn, et cetera, et cetera. Do you agree with Carl Lyconn's position? Let me just say this, he's a brilliant trader, but in 1980, which is what almost 40 years ago, 42 years ago. He closed down his hedge fund, returned the money, but he said he didn't like the outlook. We were on a 10, 15-year-old economy. He's a brilliant trader, a very smart guy, but he has a bearish bent to him. I don't disagree with him presently. I think we've had the most irresponsible combination of fiscal monetary policies in our history. I

would just point out that if you had 100 economists in your studio, rather than a very attractive young lady and the broken down stock jockey like me, basically, and had 100 economists in here in Austin, what is the potential real growth of the US economy? The response would probably be centered around 2% real, because real growth is a function of productivity growth, which is about 1.5% per annum, and labor force growth, which is about a half a 1% per annum. Most of growth was about 1.5% per annum. Most of the last couple years we were growing at 2, 3, 4 times potential, yet the Fed was keeping interest rate to zero. And they pushed everybody out on the risk curve taking spec with the bets.

Six or eight months ago, and wasn't a Scott Wapner show, was on the Squawk Box, same network, I said that if a power was right on inflation, I would tip my hat to him. It's not transitory. And the Fed had a very, very serious misoninflation. It's going to take him a few years to get inflation down to where they want it. 64% of a typical business cost is labor, and labor's not coming down. And then the other one on the fiscal side, this nation was founded in 1776. We had very limited national debt.

In 2017, our debt grew to $20 trillion. 2017 to 2021, in four years, it's gone from 2020 to $30 trillion. It's a growth rate far and exas of a growth rate economy. I think there's a price to be paid for that. And we could very well have a crisis. I couldn't be right. But then again, like I said, he's a very to be paid for that. And we could very well have a crisis. I couldn't, could be right. But then again, and like I said, he's a very stew trader, very smart guy, very generous guy too.

Smart guy, I mean, you don't get to be worth 18, you don't get to be worth 18 or 19 billion dollars. And then. Yeah, exactly. But I think he's got a point about stackflation. And I think that you're right, that the fiscal policy was 43.2% of GDP inside of two years It was bigger than the new deal and we have nothing productive to show for it. We have nothing. I mean we've taught people to not work

Effectively, which is definitely not the American way and at the same time as you said the Federal Reserve basically monetized every penny of it They acted as co-conspirator. Now we've got runaway speculation in housing, huge price inflation in food and energy. And this was before Ukraine. That this is why I chose this. Yeah, I think Ukraine has been kind of a smokescreen for him. It's a red hair. This was a serious issue, very hard to make predictions about the future, but I would say that Putin

to me is like a wounded animal, a wounded animal that's cornered is very dangerous. What makes him dangerous is the nuclear capability. You know, Edo Hitler, when he saw he was losing committed suicide, the question is whether Putin has got that capacity or whether he's going to try to use a nuclear option and take the rest of the world with him. And I don't know, I don't know the answer, you know, I hope not. But that's a very dangerous situation. How much pride do you think Putin's got? Is he a guy that's driven by a lot of pride and his publicity, like how people view him and he has to always show strength. I think he can give it damn less. You know, he had a good thing though.

That's actually good if he doesn't give a shit, because if he doesn't give a shit, he won't do what Hitler did. If he does care about what history and people think he's going to have to do something, because people are selling him right now, somebody who's weak. Yeah, well, what my concern is, if he didn't have nuclear capability, he's being exposed here for being a paper tiger. Basically, he can't even deal with the Ukraine. Exactly.

Let alone NATO. That's my concern, though. Let alone NATO. Yeah, well, that's a good concern, that's a real concern, because if he resorts to a nuclear solution, very, very negative. The other thing I'd watch very carefully is China. Now, I'm assuming China is very mercantilist nation, and they see the market in Europe and the market in the United States as much bigger than the market in Russia. So, I think they'll stay out

of this. And I think if China stays out of it, and we don't use the nuclear option, this two-show pass. Yeah, I think they've learned how expensive it would be right now to invade, basically, to try and take Taiwan back. I think that Xi Jinping has learned a big lesson watching from the outside looking in what's happening with Russia and how devastating it's been to the economy. Yeah, absolutely. Putin says what with this daily business briefing, Putin says unfriendly countries must buy Russian oil and gas in rubles.

Yeah. Let's hear it for the Italians. They were the first to say no. Yeah. And then, by the way, meanwhile, did you have an opinion about what Saudi Arabia said that they're thinking about moving away from dollar to price the oil to one since 1972 their price of US dollar. Now they want to go that direction. Well, I think if we keep depreciating the dollar, they'll look at the reverse.

They don't have choice. They don't have a choice. Exactly. So you've been very critical of almost anybody in office. You've had some comments about them. Well, I think the Democrats and Republicans both are deficient. And let me explain. I think the Democratic Party has been too sound in the violence of the cities by Black Lives movement. You know, they should be more critical, more outspoken.

And I think the Republican Party has put on a lot of bullshit with Trump, and his behavior was disgraceful, criticizing a hero like John McCain or, you know, Colin Powell in death. There's no judgment whatsoever. And so very few people, other than like Mitt Romney and a couple of others, have been critical of Trump. Trump's economic ideas were superior, but his behavior to Biden's, but his behavior was disgraceful.

And the way I assess it, unemotionally, is I know a lot of very decent, hard-working people that voted generous, that voted for Trump. And their vote was basically motivated more because they feared the progressives more than they feared Trump. Okay, and my view is different. We live in democracy. There are 300 members of the House, 100 US scientists that can represent my interest. And I felt that I would rather take a chance with them than put a would-be dictator into a second term where he have no allegiance to anybody but himself. I do believe his behavior has been disgraceful. And so I vote for Biden. And I vote for Biden very reluctantly,

but was a vote against Trump to be honest with you. And I think the saddest thing for our country is a country of 3 and 3 billion people. We had these two choices. This graceful. So who are you excited about for 2024? You're living in Florida. You got a governor here that some people like. This is graceful. So who are you excited about for 2024? You're living in Florida.

You got a governor here that some people like? Yeah, well, I don't like his anti-masking stuff. I would say I had lunch the other day with Joe Manchin, and I could support him, but I don't think he could run as a Democrat left to switch parties. I agree with you. He sabotaged the bill back better, so it's hard for me to imagine a Democrat party would put him in the head of the ticket. Well, he's the state of the Union address. He sat with the GOP's and he was in Dallas, Texas recently for a fundraiser, energy industry.

It was all GOP fundraising. He's got a lot of common sense. He's got a lot of fortitude. He's been getting calls every day, multiple calls about changing his vote and he hung tough. And so I would support him mike penteu is going to run christ christie from the jersey to run now there's uh... plenty of people the republican side i don't know anybody but the democrats are that i would vote for it this point in time newsom

uh... i don't know about them well you have that's a star for them yeah that's it that's it give that look they They love me. He sent out a fourth stimulus check to California as if we had a Spent enough yesterday for gas something for one of dollars per person that makes no sense to me You've looked at the discouraged consumption. You know low with a price now California had had net out migration for the first time since 1850 when it became a state in 2021 1950 when it became a state in 2021. That is the same.

The way I love the quote, he's no longer governor, but Cuomo, Andrew Cuomo said basically that people are leaving New York because of the weather. I think that was a great comment. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I come dead and leave it the last, you know, however many years in decades. But Trump, you think Trump's running?

I had lunch with a very leading Democrat who said two things, very politically connected, and very fine you and being, I don't feel it's proper to mention his name. And he gave me what I call good news and bad news. The bad news was Trump is going to run, Trump's going to get the nomination, and Trump's going to win. I happen to disagree with him, okay?

The good news was he said, predictions in the presidential outcome three years of events have never been right. You're so funny. Yeah, that's the truth. He's a very leading guy, a very major philanthropist, who's on TV like you, and quite a lot. He did a great job.

But I don't think the Republican party will give a nomination to Trump when it comes down to Push Comes a Shove. Just like a Democratic party denied Bernie Sanders didn't want him to lead the ticket how important are these midterms I think it's a lead pipe since the Republicans are gonna sweep maybe that's what's keeping the market up but I think it's a matter of how they're gonna sweep and what the composition's gonna be and who's side they're on because the Republican Party is just as divided as the Democratic Party is right now. Yeah, well, to the divided country. Do you have any opinions on Lincoln Project and what those guys are doing? No, not at all. Okay.

David Solomon, so Goldman Sachs, you know, when we were during COVID, I would sit down with a lot of investment bankers. Talk, call them, I would have meetings with them, right? New York, we go have six, seven, eight meetings with them. And I would say, so tell me what your COVID protocols are right now with your company. And I was like, wow, you know, we can only do Zoom or we can only do this and we can only do that and we can go to the office and we can't travel. And then behind closed doors, they would say, let me tell you, the Goldman Jets are off. They're traveling. They're going to meet with people there sit down there will meeting with the entrepreneur there is in the money for them

they're doing all that stuff the reputation of david is they capitalize during covid you i'm sure you have an opinion about david solomon who he is and what he's done what do you think about david solomon's leadership outstanding becoming extremely well. He's a very gage guy. Terrific firm.

You know, I have nothing but good things to say about Goldman. I sat down with a guy that runs a $10 billion company and we had dinner last week or two weeks because of the Angelo. And he said, you know, I just had dinner with Solomon, David Solomon. He said two months prior to that, he said, he flew out on his jet, not with a team of five, eight people. He flew out by himself because they were trying to do around of nine hundred

million, whatever the number was. He said, he flew out by himself and we sat down, we talked and then he left. He had a two hour meeting with me. That's it. He just left. I'm like, he came himself. Yeah, he didn't send anybody else. No, he came himself. Yes, you got to respect the leader like that, that's doing.

Remember what Jamie Diamond said recently? He said no more zoom because he'd lost business. Of course, of course, this is one time where Solomon kind of took everyone's lunch. And you gotta respect that. I'm sure you have an opinion also for Jamie. I think Jamie's almost a class by himself. For me, he's terrific guy.

I have a very high regard for that by noem well. And I think Goldman, I mean, Goldman is a very accomplished firm, very motivated, was to do the business. I had my own experience. I was one of the few times I was ahead of Goldman in terms of thinking. I ran Goldman research for many, many years and I kept on telling Goldman you're making mistake by not being in the asset management business. And for 10 years, they told me, Lee, you don't get it. We believe, money management, do my management, you know,

broker firms to do brokerage, don't get the customer because Goldman's traditional customers are professional money management. And I said, open up your eyes and look around. The world has changed. You know, Maryland's asset management, the Webster, which is the division of key, pretty key to P body, CSFP, everybody was in the business. And they didn't want to do it. And one day, Salmon Brothers, who was at odds trading rival in the 70s and 60s announced that Bob Salmon, Jr. was leaving the research department to start Salman Brothers Asset Management. And Steve Friedman, Bob Rubin called me up there and then co-edged to the firm and said, you know, you were right, we were all, we made a mistake, we should go into Asset Management. Are you willing to leave research and start an Asset Management division for us?

And I laughed, I said, sure. It was a mistake of my part because Goldman being the great firm it is understood that Asset's on the management the management times fee equal revenue. And I was interested in the performance of the assets, not raising assets. And after about a year of doing it, I decided I want to retire and become a full-time money manager. But you know, Goldman, when they go into a business, something they're not the first, but when they go into a business, they try to capture 100% market shares that are very motivated. G. Sam is a monster.

Yeah, it is. And I started as a trillion dollar business now. It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, a, a, a small private equity firm at New York. They came into my house last week. Nice people, good guys. And their team, five people there. Goldman Sachs, former Goldman Sachs, 28 years, former Goldman Sachs 28 years former Goldman Sachs 26 years former Goldman Sachs 25 years former Goldman Sachs 26 years

I see a lot after 25 years. Is there like something that happens at 25 years at Goldman that people leave after 25 years? Because it's a great firm, but I see a lot of 25 26 different now Then it used to be because people would spend their whole careers there and then only leave to go into government or academia. Sure. You know, I don't know exactly which change but I would say that, you know, when you get up in the morning you have one suit and you're looking at the cloth

you don't have to spend a lot of time thinking about what you're going to wear. Okay, Goldman, you. Goldman partners at age 50 worth a lot of money. And you have more than one suit in the closet. And it's a very demanding business, very hard work. I had a voracious appetite for work, so I didn't leave over that. I just wanted to do something different. I did not want to run another business. Now, in research, self-pray things, but we had a very good team of sales research

and trading coordinating together. When I took over Goldman Research, we were largely unranked in these various surveys that checked your technical. Institutional investor. I magazine, Greenwich Research, which was founded by Charlie Ellis, Financial World, which isn't in business anymore. When I took over the research department, we were unranking those polls. When I left the research department, we were number one in every one of those surveys.

And there was a category called portfolio strategy, which I competed in as a soloist. And for nine straight years, I was number one strategist. So I was ready for a new mountain to climb. And that's when I went into asset management. But like I said, I want to be a money manager and not a gasigatherer. So I selfishly have to ask, how did the Federal Reserve's policies as they evolved changed how you looked at managing money? Well, I would say the business has changed.

Not so much as the Federal Reserve, business has changed because the machines now run the world. And I'm highly critical of the SEC. You know, I wrote Jake Clayton a letter which he never responds, so he's now in private practice. Ironically, he's chairman of the board of Apollo, which I have a large position. And when I wrote him a letter when he was head of the SEC, he never responded. I pointed out to him when I came to Goldman Sachs 50 odd years ago, Goldman Morgan Stanley saw him in trade stocks for 2550 cents a

share and the Volcker rule didn't exist. So the brokers had the capacity and the willingness to position and create liquidity. They can't anymore legally because of Volcker and economically because of the commission structure. There's no reward. Secondly, 50 years ago, the special system on the New York Stock Exchange, it handled 80% of the volume. Today, 80% of the volume is off-board and thought-pulls. And finally, when I'm particularly critical in, I think, 2007, they eliminated the uptick rule, which was enacted in 1938 in response to the abuses of 29. And this gave rise to all the machines to trade the way they trade.

And these machines know nothing about value. They know everything about price. And so the market goes up too much when it goes up and goes down too much when it goes down. And it's a destabilizing force. But they don't seem to be focused on that. They seem to be focused more on the trading course. I don't know, I just separate in the world that I'm in.

I'm happy I'm not in the money management game professionally. I'm being paid a fee. I can take a long term horizon and run the money for tax efficiency. Leon, for the average person that's having a hard time with gas. I saw this article, dear, I don't know if you saw this or not is inflation ruining your day Just eat lentils and let your pets die corporations are officially inflating prices Bloomberg Bloomberg opinion came out the other day saying inflation stinks most if you earn less than 300,000 dollars a year. Here's how to deal with it take the bus don't buy and bulk

Try lentils instead of meat nobody said this would be fun, okay? What are your thoughts about some of these things on how people are handling the rise of gas prices? Well, if they're economically sensitive, they're gonna drive less, right? And take public transportation. And the politicians are trying to ease the pain so they're reducing gasoline taxes

when they should be not doing that. Yeah, there's talk about price controls, which is really scary. That didn't work for Nixon. No, no, no. I hope we don't go in that direction. I mean, the oil companies are corning money. No question about it. I'm doing well in the market.

I have 20% of my portfolio and energy. And I just tell you, look at the numbers. They're powerful, powerful. Well, they're not making stupid investments anymore. Well, they're afraid to because they've convinced the public administration has, but ESG, and then it's a sunset industry. And they're afraid to make investments, so they're returning the money in the form of dividends and stock repurchase that.

Can't blame them. No, but I believe that this capital system adjusts and things will happen. You think this is, we're seeing the high with gas prices and inflation or it's still going to continue to rest the year. I think it's going to continue until the Fed gets out ahead of things or the price of energy pushes us to do recession. I think we're heading to a recession. I don't think in 2022, but I think in 2023 is a growing probability of recession and that will bring the market down. By how much, what do you think of? Well, I'm thinking when a recession hits the market

will have to drop 40% from its high. So the high was 4,800, so that big net 3000. But not this year. That's a pretty big number right there. Yeah, well, it's a big number, but we're, see, the discussion should center now. What is the appropriate multiple for the market? And when I consider the degree of involvement

by the government and the system, I say an 18 multiple in the S&P is a reasonable number. Well, 18 times, $225, $230, it says the market's fairly value of 4,000. The market's been kept in the overvalid territory by very, very accommodative monetary policy. That's changing. I think Powell will be the first to admit that he made a huge, misdemeanor inflation, huge.

Biggest policy ever the Fed has ever made. Absolutely agree. And so I think that interest rates can get up to the point where it'll hit the economy. It may take another year to get there. Right now, the stock market is benefiting into some degree by where the best game in town. You know, they say in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king or where the tallest mitchet. You know one who invests in Europe now, obviously, that proximate to Russia, trying to

ask big questions about rule of law and fixed income is totally mispriced. So the US market wins by default. As Richard Fisher used to say the most attractive horse in the glue factory. Okay. I was thinking about that one, but this sounds reasonable. So we had an interesting comment and maybe Danielle can give some thoughts on this. Paul Volker had it right. Higher rates lower prices. That's the cure. That is the cure. But as Lee just said,

Jay Powell missed the window. And now it's going to prove very costly because he's going to have to channel hopefully his inner Paul Volcker. Paul Volcker purposely put the US economy into recession in order to get inflation tamed and the the economy paid a price. And you have to have somebody with this with the spine and the economy paid a price. And you have to have somebody with the spine and the constitution to go that distance right now because the Fed is, as they say, so far behind the curve. And in fact, Senator Shelby asked Powell outright in his recent congressional testimony, can you be vulgar? And Powell answered him, I hope when history

is written that the answer is yes. It remains to be seen. The Fed is only raised by a quarter of one percentage point. There are 700 basis points, seven full percentage points behind where they should be in terms of tightening, and that's going to be painful in an interest rate-sensitive economy. It is very clear that Powell and the fiscal side of the economy has elevated societal issues relative to inflation as a concern. Absolutely. Just remember, every session so-to-seas

and the next economic recovery, and every economic recovery so-to-seas and the next recession, used every session every four or five years. The last recession we have was 2008, 2009. He's gonna try to engineer a soft lending, but my guess is we're so far from reality in terms of rates that that's not gonna happen

it wouldn't be a bad thing we've got twenty percent of us companies are what they call zombies they can't they can't service their interest expense so recessions had been cleansing when they came around with regularity every four five you get the bad players out of the market well they say a rolling loan gather no loss that's very good. Are you following what they're saying with, you know, Biden's warning about cyber attacks from Russia?

Are you following that story, Ed? Yeah. I hope credibility you give to that, that that could happen. Oh, I would say very credible. And I'm just hoping the government has a student enough to have plans. I remember I joined Wall Street almost 60 years ago and when the first companies I visited was a company called Bemis Company in Minneapolis and they told me they had just completed a government contract.

You bring news to you to bury a couple hundred million shrouds along the East and Seaboard because they filled an event of a nuclear attack. We wouldn't have the time to bury everybody so we had shrouds buried in the East and Seaboard to cover the bodies in the streets. So the government always thinking for us. Hopefully. They know what's best. They know what's best. They know what's best for you, Leon.

I see the smile on your face. Of course. I mean, you talked to the guy who escaped that to be here. So I can make a decision for myself if I screw up. Koby, but no, this is what Biden Biden said he said on March 21st the more Putin's back is against the wall the greater the severity of the tactics he may employ one of the tools he most likely to use in my view in our view a cyber attacks the magnitude of Russia's cyber capacity is fairly

consequential and it's coming he continued so you know there's anybody there's anybody really know what that would look like? Is anybody talking about what that would look like? Yeah, they shut down the power grids and stuff like that. Like, of course, yeah. And that's where they can be the most, and the finances stuff. Look, they did to the colonial pipeline, you know, where they had gas lines for a while. Look, this is a different form of war, and hopefully it's cyber and not nuclear.

You know, nuclear. You read my mind much more dangerous but that's a good way to to sow the seeds of societal unrest in a in an economy that it's played by an equality is turn the lights out we have to decide whether a capitalist nation or socialist nation i think one of the biggest threats this country has is for my red thirty percent of the young people think socialism before the biggest threats this country has is from where I read 30% of the young people think socialism is before the capital is It's scary so scary. Did you see the chart about the support for unions since 1965?

Did you see that chart that was shared? Okay, Tyler, do you have that or no? If you have that if you can pull that up make it okay, so this is from our Goola lore so he knows who it's from now. It's on Robert Reich. I'm sure which you appreciate Robert Reich Robert Reich is I'm sure which you appreciate Robert Reich Robert Reich is other socialist other social Public support for unions is at a 50 or high. This is a big deal You see approval rating how high it is 68% last time we were there was 1965 a year before you got with Goldman is this for the average person? I was like what's the big deal unions are good because they protect the employee For the average person, I was like, what's the big deal? Unions are good because they protect the employee.

What does this mean to the average person that's reading this? I'm not anti-union, but I would basically disay. It's very clear that the power is shifting from capital to labor right now. That's one of the reasons I'd have a conservative view about the market. I'm not anti-union. Basically, this is just a fact of life. I'm not anti-union, basically. This is just a fact of life. Did the pendulum swing too far in terms of the implorers?

Well income is a big issue. Well, I'm talking about CEO pay versus the people who are working for the companies. Yeah, it has, but Warren Buffer says that you know they ought to name these consultants ratchet, ratchet and ratchet because they just come in and they bless what the boards want to do. I think it's a big problem you know I own stock in a company that the CEO has made a short load of money, huge, huge amount of money, and the stock is lower than it was a decade ago. And this is wrong. And you know, I just don't have a time to tilt the windmill, so I keep the position small, or I just move on. And so.

Well, at the end of the day, you get what you pay for, and you can pay people to be productive. You can, but I think that business is getting paid more than they produced. And you could like Kallikhan, he's a big soapbox on that, and he's not wrong. But business is getting paid more than they produce. And some instances, yes. And some instances, they get paid less. I say one of my heroes was Henry Singleton of Teladine. He even made more than a million dollars a year running the company.

And he was absolutely brilliant in everything he did. He basically did 130 acquisitions intelligently. He basically bought stocks of the company intelligently. He managed to own capital structure, bought back 90% of his stock before dying very intelligently. He made the investment in a little money, never paid a lot of money. He made the money because he owned 20% of the company. He was totally aligned with the shareholders. I think that this income disparity is a very long term issue and it has to be dealt with

through education. A man. A man. A man. Well, you know, basically... term issue and it has to be dealt with with education. Amen. On pack that. Amen. Well, you know, basically you got to create economic opportunity for people and you got to give them the tools to be competitive and I think education is the best way to do it. Are you familiar with Michael Saylor?

He's the crypto guy. He's the crypto guy. Yeah, I take a cop out in crypto I say they say if you don't understand crypto that means you're old. I'm 78. I don't understand crypto I don't want to say it's a fraud. I think blockchain technology is for real. I don't understand crypto I got a couple million bucks with the money manager. It has a 4% position So I got $80,000 in crypto. You got $80,000 in crypto. Yeah, that's two bitcoins. Give her take. You're doing a million dollars.

I know, I know. Two bitcoins. I know nothing about it. I don't have an intelligent view. I know smart people on both sides. So meet me too. And I'm, I own a position in Bitcoin and Ethereum. But I, a person wouldn't call me like, oh, this guy a full-on, but I'm Michael Saylor here the other day.

It's my guy, she's like a very small guy. Well, you said education, I said, so why are you doing these things? This is only one reason, I got to educate people. I got to educate people by why Bitcoin makes sense. The one part that more and more I think about it, more and more I think about what's going on is, when what took place with Ukraine and Russia, what's going on right now over there, right? Well, what happened with Canada,

the whole truckers, what they were doing. They can shut down your check in account if they wanted to, they can shut down your credit cards, they can shut down access to a lot of that stuff. I can't send gold to you, my family, and Iran, and say, hey, you're going through tough times. Here in 30 seconds, I'm gonna send you gold. I can't set that.

If the direction of how exchange can take place, the blockchain technology, as well as Bitcoin or Ethereum, that's making more and more sense for the younger audience. And some of the older guys are starting to say, maybe this does make sense, but Charlie Munger came out, which... Rad Poison. Yeah, he got the Rad Poison, it's what he...

Yeah, he can say whatever he wants. He did not say good things about Bitcoin. I would more align with him, but the truth is, I've learned over the years, you speak about things you know, something about it. I don't know enough about it. Trolley is a very bright guy, and he speaks his mind. Jimmy Diamond has said things about it, Warren Buffett said things about it. I don't think it's the interest of the US dollar to the US country to promote an alternative currency, but it may emerge on its own.

Who knows? Do you have control over that? That's free market, don't you? No, no. I think they've missed their chance. There's millions of dollars now, held on this stuff, so that outlaw it. They'll just tax it to death. That's all.

They'll basically have adverse taxes on Bitcoin. Final thoughts I'll give to you here with the audience, okay, with where the market is at, your life experiences. If you can't give advice to me, I'm listening to this, I'm like, listen, okay, here's a guy that's giving me perspective from a billionaire standpoint. You're a billionaire. What do you know what it is to be middle America? Why should I give my life and go out there and work hard and make some money?

Why not socialism? Why not these rich people, all they care about is money, all they care about is becoming rich, all they care about is that, and then they bully the small guy. Why not socialism? What would you say to the folks that maybe are more supportive of that social? Look at the most prosperous economies in the world. It's not a socialism. I went to Cuba. We talked about that in Venezuela. These are all economies in the toilet. Look at Russia. It's clear that capitalism has been the most successful. And so I would say that just look at the facts.

Most of the people in these socialist countries want to come to America. Of course they do. And I'm the American dream. My father came to America at 13. I get to old public school education. I worked hard, made a lot of money, and gave it all away. That's the American Dream. America became successful, not because we

envied people with wealth. We want to become wealthy. I started working to put bread in the table to support my family. And then you develop a certain work style, work habit. And I work very hard, but I work very hard and I give away my money. And I like giving away money. I like making money for two reasons.

If I make money and don't lose money, it validates my views. And all of us have a certain degree of arrogance you want to be right. And I don't want to sit in your program, give you a bad advice. I want to give you that advice that makes people money. Okay, the second reason you want to make money

is to give away more money. It makes me happy. You're optimistic about the future? I would say, not as optimistic as I'd like to be. And Warren Buffett says it in the well, that no way we've got rich, being short America, but I don't like the polarization of the country. I don't like the leadership that we have.

And I think that this debt creation is going to come back and bite us in the ass. Every bubble that we've been through has had a very bad economic outcome. And I think that that is the period ahead of us. So where I would close on, not that the market's going to collapse or anything like that, but I got my MBA from Columbia Business School in January 31 of 1967. At a six-month-old kid, had no money in the bank, had a student loan to repay, I was broke.

I couldn't afford a vacation. The very next day I started my 24-year-old career at Goldman Sachs, February 1, 1967. If you go back and check the charts, you'll see in February 1st of 1967, the Dow is roughly a thousand. In 1982 was roughly a thousand. Wow, 15 years later. 15 years later. Now I'm not making a 15-year forecast, but I am of the view that we're in store for an

extended period of time at very low returns in the equity market. We may have a big swash down next year, and we come back to where we are now, but I don't think we're going anywhere for a few years, and you're gonna have to work hard and be a stock picker. And just be disciplined. Don't be a margin, be a cash-based investor, and know what you own. There's no miracles.

We've been through one of the most speckled to periods in history. I mean, just look at, you know, and I said this on TV a while ago, it's not one market. You know, there's the S&P market, there's the fang market, and then there's the Robinhood market, and the Robinhood market was crazy. They had no idea what they were doing. Those stocks had down 70, 80, 90 percent, and they still don't own money, and they still look expensive. Robinhood stock has gone from my 80 to single digits down 80 odd percent and they don't earn

money. So, you know, I buy companies that only earn money. The smartest guy in the room there was the AMC CEO who kept selling stock into it. And then he's buying again. I don't know what he's buying, but we'll see. Well, first of all, I appreciate you for coming out. This was great. I'm glad we were able to have you on the podcast here, Danielle.

It's good that we did it together. The timing was perfect because you guys, your backgrounds collide. Together folks will do the podcast again, I think next Tuesday. With Hauntan Thatt created the AI company, I believe his database is the largest in the world of faces and facial recognition. It's pretty wild what he's got. Little creepy, little scary, but something I want to learn more about. If that interests you, we'll see you next Tuesday.

Have a great weekend, everybody. Take care. Bye-bye, bye-bye, bye-bye. Cheers. Yn yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw' yw' you