PBD Podcast - Brazilian Elections w/ @Canal Paulo Figueiredo & @Rodrigo Constantino | PBD Podcast | Ep. 208

Starting point is 00:00:00 I know this life meant for me. Yeah, why would you plan on July it when we got that day? Value payment giving values, contagious world, entrepreneur's we can't no value that hate it. I didn't run home. You look what I've become. I'm the I'm the one. what I've become. I'm the I'm the I'm the I'm the I'm the I'm the I'm the I'm the I'm the I'm the I'm the

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Starting point is 00:00:56 So I started tweeting about Brazil, what's going on, and I wanted to invite some people to come down here and talk. And I was watching all these videos. Is it true? Is it not? Is it fake? Is it not? Is it fake? Is it real? What is really going on in Brazil?

Starting point is 00:01:07 You know, it's a certain words you can't talk about. And then all of a sudden, I read an article talking about the director of CIA when I visited Brazil last year to talk about Bolsonaro. You cannot challenge the elections. And I said, why is the USA meddling in the Brazilian election by sending the director of CIA and this is Documented that's a little bit weird and then seeing the fact that China is looking at Brazil as a country to take over and that's a little too close To America this concerns me as a businessman that because this concerns me as a family man I wanted to learn more. I posted. I said who would you suggest me having on the podcast?

Starting point is 00:01:44 We got a bunch of lists. We looked at them. We invited people from both sides. Unfortunately, we only I wanted to learn more. I posted, I said, who would you suggest me having on the podcast? We got a bunch of lists. We looked at them. We invited people from both sides. Unfortunately, we only, some people from the left didn't want to come down. So today, we have two guests here with us. And I want to properly introduce these folks. One, I got a friend of mine here who also runs one of our offices in the P.H.

Starting point is 00:02:01 booths from Honduras. One of my favorite guys. One of the smartest guys we got in a company, very, very successful businessman from New York to Florida. Marvin, it's great to have you on this, the first one we'll do. Secondly, we have two guests here. One is Rodrigo Constantine, who is the president of the Brazilian Liberal Institute and a founding member of the Institute Millennium. He's written many books. One of the books is called Esquer that caviar, which means caviar left great title by the way

Starting point is 00:02:30 He graduated in 98 from a political from a Pontifico Catholic University of Rio de Janeiro and in 2000 he obtained a masters of business administration and Finance from Ipmeck in Rio de Janeiro, as well if I'm pronouncing it correctly. It is. Thank you for being on, and we also have Paulo figure, if figure, if it's hard. It's figure, if it's figure. Figure, if it's on, by the way,

Starting point is 00:02:54 it's a, that last name is known in Brazil because he is the former, he is the grandson of the former president, Joa, am I saying Joao? Joao. Joao, same last name, Figueroa, though. And he is a businessman, economist, and journalist. He holds a specialization in business,

Starting point is 00:03:12 international relations, and political economy from the London School of Economics, Certification American Government, from Harvard University, and in micro economics, from MIT, so thank you for being a guest on the podcast. My pleasure. So, look, as an American, we have so much already going on in America to keep track of what's going on from here.

Starting point is 00:03:32 I'm from Iran, so I track what's going on with Iran. I'm Armenian, so I'm watching what's going on in Armenia. I'm a Syrian, I'm a businessman, so I'm keeping track with the economy. I don't have time to track what else is going on in many of these other countries, but because we run the podcast, because the world is becoming smaller today, we're all connected. I want to learn a little bit more about what's going on with Brazil. So Lula wins the election according to the data that the world gets. I think it's like 50.9% to 49.1%. Some numbers like that that you see all over the place. Some are saying this is not accurate.

Starting point is 00:04:07 The Supreme Court was involved. There's a lot of different things. Why don't you help us give us a little bit of understanding of what's going on in Brazil right now? Well, you got to go back a little bit in history to understand that the Lula was the president and his party. They were in power for 13 years in Brazil, okay, from 2003 to 2015.

Starting point is 00:04:29 And then his successor, lady called Juma Hosef, she was impeached for defrauding public accounts, okay? And in the meantime, the largest corruption scandal, and I think the history of the world was being investigated, and most of Lula's minister and Dumas minister were being arrested and investigated. You're talking about Operation Car Wash. Operation Car Wash, that's correct. And so Duma wasn't impeached because of Operation Car Wash. She was impeached by the Foroting Public Accounts, but it was all connected because we had large, large demonstrations on the streets in Brazil, large, I mean, probably among the largest in the world's history.

Starting point is 00:05:20 We were together in many of them and was a succession of demonstrations. So, Danch was impeached. We got her vice president to cover. We got a little more to the center. Michel or Michel Tamer. And in 2018, we had elections. So everyone thought the Brazil would get a present from the center left, because Brazil, for many years,

Starting point is 00:05:50 had a division between the center left, PSDB, is a party, center left party, social democrat party, in Brazil, and PT, the workers party, okay? So Bolsonaro got elected, and that was a big surprise. He got stabbed in the middle of the election. He was stabbed by a he was attacked by a leftist activist a case that was never properly investigated because well the the federal police. The clips of it are out there by the well he's being carried by somebody and then he gets stabbed into chest and he nearly died yeah really died he went through several surgeries the case was never properly investigated but they concluded that he was a lone wolf okay

Starting point is 00:06:35 although well I'm not gonna I'm not gonna get into this rabbit hole okay the point is you got elected and immediately after he got elected this establishment was in shock. He was in shock. And I'm talking about a guy that has similarities to Donald Trump in the United States. It was a very small congressman in Brazil, not part of any big parties, was always like sideline. And that was weird. The press hated him because most of his policies were very conservative and very not only conservatives, but national populace. Okay, if you want to call it that way.

Starting point is 00:07:20 And the establishment started to fight him. So now we have a second actor, which is very important in Brazil, which is the Supreme Court. So the Supreme Court in Brazil is very powerful to the point that Americans could never understand. And it's even hard for us in Brazil to understand how they became so powerful because it's not within the Constitution,

Starting point is 00:07:41 the amount of power they have right now. So they immediately tried to undermine a lot of things he was doing. By the way, just to, power they have right now. So they immediately tried to undermine a lot of things he was doing. By the way, just to and I want you to continue because this is very good narrative so everybody understands. In US right now it's five to four on the right. Is it true that in Brazil it's nine to nine to two? So eight of the current Supreme Court justice, we have 11 in total. Eight of them were appointed by the, well, seven by the Workers Party, correct me if I'm wrong, seven by the Workers Party and Lula and Duma. Yep. And another one, which is Alicia de Morage, was appointed by Michelle Tamer, which was the vice president of Duma. Okay. And before he continues just one thing that is important,

Starting point is 00:08:26 they are not judges. You don't need to be a judge to become a justice in the Supreme Court in Brazil. What do you mean by that? They are not judges. You have to be on a turn. Some of them use legal background, but you don't have to be a judge.

Starting point is 00:08:38 Background, but not a judge. Yeah. They say you have to have notable knowledge of the law. Okay. Who elects them? Is it similar to US where you're president? Okay, I got it, but but there's a difference with him. So by the way, shout out you know, credit to Lula for flipping seven because Trump flipped three. So many times when the president flips and I want you to give us how it was done. But many times a lot of people sit there and say, well, Trump won an election, one term, he's a one-term president.

Starting point is 00:09:07 But he's the only guy that's ever flipped three seats. So whether the left or the right that does that, you can control for 20 years. So they flipped seven. Whether they flipped seven on that proper way, I don't know that, but it's a... It was unproperly. The present, in Brazil, differently from the US, the Justice Retired.

Starting point is 00:09:27 So they changed the law a little bit to make them retire a little bit earlier. But okay, that was done at least following the law. But that was not the whole problem. The problems that the Senate was under corruption. Mensalons, Mensalons, the name the, like a monthly payment, corrupt payment, and they approved the names. One of them, a poem that you need to show some knowledge, legal knowledge and all that,

Starting point is 00:09:56 one of them tried to be a judge and failed twice. Yes. He was failed to test. And he was an attorney from the PT, the labor party, the work party. So he was very connected to Lula and Jixil and all the test. And he was an attorney from the Pite, the labor party, the work party. So he was very connected to Lula and Jixil and all the names. And he was approved because the Senate was under corruption. That's important to me.

Starting point is 00:10:14 By the way, guys, for the people that don't know, because that statement about Bolsonaro and Trump haven't so many similarities, can you highlight some of it? So the people can understand why they ended up with that label. Yeah, he's an anti-establishment. That's the main thing. He's a national populist kind of guy.

Starting point is 00:10:34 Very high popularity. And pro-guns, yeah. So populism, not capitalism. No, no, he's pro-capitalism. Globalization against globalism, he's pro-gun, he's against abortion. So yeah, very right-wing family values and all that. Christian. Got it. Yeah, so go back to your Supreme Court while you were going through it. So Supreme Court happens. I want to later on come back to Alexandria, the Morais.

Starting point is 00:11:07 I'm really curious about him. And another one is, well, please continue. Well, so Rodrigo brought a very good point. So under PT, the Workers' Party government, they controlled Congress by two different ways. So in the beginning, they did a thing called men's salon. Men's salon means a monthly payment. Okay. So they found out and that was I'm talking about public records. Okay. People were convicted. It's not a crazy. Yeah. Because they're a theory. Okay. That's I'm talking about public

Starting point is 00:11:37 records. People being tried. Even the head minister of Lula was tried by the supreme court in two thousand seven i guess or something like that and he was convicted the main the chief of the the chief of civil cabinet and and lula was convicted and a several other ministers so it's a thing it happened they were bribing uh congressman taking money, laundering money from public companies. So they used to create this phony contracts with public companies, mostly advertising contracts. A guy named Mark Wasvalerio used to withdraw the money like cash and and give cash to congressmen that voted with the government. So that's and it was a good point that he brought it. That was one of the ways they got the they were able to appoint as many justice as they wanted because they

Starting point is 00:12:39 had the congress. They controlled both houses with bribe, okay? Then this was discovered and that was a problem in Brazil, I don't know how, but look, I got re-elected even after all this. I don't know if people, I don't know if our elections were corrupted back then as well. No one knows because it was the same system, okay? But he got re-elected. And when he got re-elect elected, he tried a different method. This method, it was the one that was investigated in our operation, Car Wash, which was also getting money from public companies. That's why it's so important to privatize everything.

Starting point is 00:13:16 They got money from public companies. And instead of giving cash to congressman, they use the money to finance campaigns, okay, under the table, everything under the table. So this way they control both house. But anyways, back to the impeachment and picking up then Supreme Court. So Supreme, and just one information to illustrate what he's saying, there's one politician very close to Lula and all that. They found $10 million in cash at his home. $10 million in cash. So that's what was going on in Brazil that time. Yeah. It was very correct. To the point that the following strong man in Lula's and Dilma's government a guy called Antonio Palachi. He was a former ministry of economy and then Ministry of Civil Cabinet. He on his collaboration with the Justice, he's deal, plea deal with the, he said, he stated that there was no deed on Lula's administration or Duma's administration

Starting point is 00:14:27 that was not tainted by corruption. So everything that the government did, everything. You wanted a law approved, okay, give me a percentage. You want to get this contract, give me a percentage. So Brazil was completely, completely under the mod of corruption. This was what's going on. If we want to stay there for a second and let's just highlight a little bit more depot operation car wash, I'll tell you what I found.

Starting point is 00:15:00 And then you tell me if this is correct or if you want to add anything to it, okay? So Operation Car Wash Biggest corruption and history of Brazil ever I believe the world. Yeah, I've heard world. I've heard obviously Brazil, but it's it's political biggest corruption you read about Then the people know what's happening The some of the people that voted for Lula. They say everybody steals from us, but we like this guy. You know, at least this guy gives us some of the money that he's also stealing, he gives it to us as well. That's what I've heard some people say, now that maybe right or wrong. When this took place, there was this perfect place where they were building this ambitious energy project, ita Bodhi in Brazil estimated to create 200,000

Starting point is 00:15:43 jobs. It was 45 kilometers, square kilometers. And during this time, when they're going through this project, it caused Lula to go to jail for 12 years, which she only did 580 days. Give her take at the Federal Police Headquarters in the city of Curitiba, if I'm not mistaken. His successor, Dilma, was impeached. Then her successor, Michelle, was charged for corruption.

Starting point is 00:16:07 The former CEO of the Brecht, Marcelo de Brecht, went to jail for 19 years. The case showed that the company paid $788 million in bribes. In connection with more than 100 projects in 12 different countries from 2001 to 2006. Elique Batista, which at one point was the richest man, with a network of $35 billion in 2012. The next year his network goes from $35 billion to $200 million. The following year, according to Bloomberg in 2014, his network is minus $1 billion. He went to jail for 30 years.

Starting point is 00:16:43 In 2016, 11 projects were stalled in brazil alone due to this corruption seventeen projects were stalled in seven other countries cuba guaramala Honduras the medicare public colombia peru venezuela argentina one irrigation project in peru were three former presidents were accused of taking money from obrecht and eventually this operation carwise scandal cost Brazilians 500,000 jobs.

Starting point is 00:17:06 Now here's the thing, if some like this happens, and Lula's name is tied to it, when he left, you see the numbers, his popularity was 80%, 90%, you read stats like that. How does a person like this come back and is able to run and win? Because you know in America they'll say, well look at the bible's corruption look what they've done

Starting point is 00:17:27 biden's never done time in jail we don't have presidents that have done jail time in u.s. and come back and get they get elected some people want to have many of our presidents go to jail some people say that got belongs in jail this guy belongs in jail but this guy actually went to jail and he got caught still on money and bribery and he wins. How does that happen in a country like Brazil? That's a very good question, Patrick.

Starting point is 00:17:48 And I think we need to go to the media to answer that. Like a lot of similarities what's going on in Brazil, that what happened two years ago in the United States. So the narrative they have is that Bolsonaro, just like Trump, is a huge threat to democracy. He's a fascist, he's gonna took power and never leave and all that. So with this narrative, the media goes against Bolsonaro in every detail, like we very fake Nils narratives. And by the same way, at the same time, the Supreme Court releases Lula, finds that the judge responsible for his first condemnation, he was convicted, he was considered guilty,

Starting point is 00:18:36 guilt, but in the first decision, Sajomoto, the do operador de carwash, ele está com um supeço, ele tem políticos interesses. Então ele releva a Lula e depois há muitos anos, ele está com um problema com o zip code. Oh, Lula não era capaz de ser judged by the car wash operation the judge legal system in Quiriciba. He was supposed to be judged in Brasília and they find it four or five years later and then they considered Lula able to run again which was not possible by law in Brazil. So to understand and to answer what what's going on in

Starting point is 00:19:24 Brazil and to answer your question, it's very important to understand the whole system. And I mean, the Supreme Court, the Congress, and the media, the 90% of the media, they were trying to help Lula go back to power because they want Bolsonaro out of it. They want to get rid of Bolsonaro. That's the first goal. So they try many different names in the center left. Paulo mentioned that there's kind of a fight among the left. They try many names in the center left.

Starting point is 00:19:58 No one worked because they don't have the popularity. And Lula still has some, especially in the poor parts of Brazil So they try many names and then they came with Lula with this kind of Rigged decisions To to get rid of Bolsonaro. That's what happened and you you ask if we hold Mostly the same opinions and when we do I think that's the area we differ a little bit. Because I agree with 99% of what he's at. So what happens that the establishment notice,

Starting point is 00:20:34 after Bolsonaro got elected, they were so surprised and they were like, what's going on? What the hell's going on here? Russia collusion was not a thing in Brazil, but WhatsApp and robots and the same excuses To hide this guy which they Portrait as the devil himself how how this guy got elected so they were like okay, who can beat this guy?

Starting point is 00:20:59 No one so the like he mentioned the center guys. They were like dull politically. No big names And they were okay. I think we need to reestablish Lula's reputation so he was an an aggrin with him. He was a Union between The media the mainstream media, big roll in that, big roll. They shifted 180 degrees. So you get the same news anchors,

Starting point is 00:21:33 like Jornal Nassar now, the main like our CBS even use, okay? Global, yeah, global. You got William Bonner, the same guy that was like, Lula was convicted of corruption to two years later. He was like, oh Lula, you've been acquitted in all courts. He's like, no, you have not. So what happened is that yes. So the media, the Supreme Court with the Justice Appointed by Lula and the elites, I'm talking about financial markets as well,

Starting point is 00:22:03 the academia, everyone, the whole establishment. They all got together and say, we got it, we got to support Lula. And that's how they rebranded and reestablished Lula's reputation. But that being said, there was only possible in my humble opinion, because Operation Car Wash became a power grab in the middle of it.

Starting point is 00:22:26 But they lost their ways. But I have a question for both of you guys. I mean, because this is a very important statistic that he's providing right now. He gets out of office after being elected not once, but twice, with 83% approval. So, if you have to make an assessment and share with us, what would you say that he actually did right during the time that he was a president to come out with that kind of,

Starting point is 00:22:52 which is right now, right now Bolsonaro, Bolsonaro is a 50% which represents, you know what I mean, the country's divided, but he obviously did a few things right for the whole country. What would you say? The country is divided, and if you look at the poor parts of the Brazil, that's where

Starting point is 00:23:08 Lula still has some relevance. But to answer you, it's important to go back to 2003 and remember what happened to the world. It was the China play. Like Brazil is a commodity country. We export a lot of food and all that. And China is a main partner. So what happened is that Brazil was able to inflate its economy. It was not sustainable.

Starting point is 00:23:38 That's very important to understand. Because what happened after Lula gave money to everybody and the credit was very... Let me give you a number to what he's saying. When Lula took office, the federal government budget was roughly 600 billion Brazilian cash. When Dilma was impeached, the federal budget was 1.4 trillion. So, one of the reasons is, because of what Rodrigo is saying,

Starting point is 00:24:13 because of the wealth, the exporting commodities to China and the development of the country, the federal government had more than twice as much money as they used to during Lula's and Dilma's term. Even though Dilma was a huge failure, but people don't necessarily associate it with Lula. So that's part of the answer. But to tell you the truth, I don't believe Lula has this kind of popularity right now. We don't see that on the streets.

Starting point is 00:24:47 We see Bolsonaro's offense, but we don't see Lula's. The issue is that especially the upper classes, they hate Bolsonaro. So the vote, to vote in Lula, it's not necessarily to want him back. It's that you want Bolsonaro out of it. So that's part of the answer. And I understand what you're saying, but remove China for a moment, right? And I understand everything that you're saying

Starting point is 00:25:11 on terms of that injection or capital, everything comes up, the fact of the matter, I wanna go back to the point, it's important though, right? Because what we're trying to do is we wanna make sure that we do have an honest approach to the whole situation right now. You know what I mean? By the way, I was born in Honduras, so I know corruption and I'm willing make sure that we do have an honest approach to the whole situation right now. By the way, I was born in Honduras,

Starting point is 00:25:26 so I know corruption and I'm willing to accept that. A lot easier than most people I think in this country and even Latin America right now are behaving naively when it comes to this point. However, however, it can't just be China though. He was able to do a number of things run, so I'm asking you, can you name a few things that you will say that he actually did right?

Starting point is 00:25:47 I can, yeah. Yeah, I think I think both of Amilia, which is a program of social welfare distribution. And so it was like a food-stained program in Brazil. He implemented that. He was, most of people were against it. I was, as well, in the beginning, it was more on the liberal side of

Starting point is 00:26:06 the economy. You were younger. Exactly. That was, and it was, that was, that was a good program. It was very important. Program to Brazil for people there in desperate condition. And again, because he had more money, he was able to do a lot of public projects. And that's a lot of it. But the main reason, if you ask me the main reason, I would have to tell you. So writers, okay, they publish a report every year about the trust in the media. Okay, how much people trust in the media? If you get the numbers in the US, right now, they're around 20%.

Starting point is 00:26:45 20% of the people trust the mainstream media most of the time. That's the general number in the US. If you take Republicans, this number is under 10% right now. In Brazil, in 2009, under the list government, that number was 70%. Right now it's 48 this year. So media media media's trust is plummet in Brazil right now. But it's still 48%. 48% of Brazilian people trust the media, which is extremely liberal

Starting point is 00:27:20 or leftist to be more precise. I know you interviewed Jordan Peterson. I like to be precise with my speech. So, and global, because of the wrong reasons, they want money to tell you the truth, that's what's behind it. They want money, Bolsonaro was not given as much money as Lula.

Starting point is 00:27:40 So they are against Bolsonaro. Global lies every day to the public, and there is a huge influence. And Marvin, you mentioned Honduras, and it's very important to understand it in Latin America and look at our neighbors in Brazil. They are all left-wing right now. They are very radical left-wing governments right now.

Starting point is 00:28:01 The photo of the Sampal is very important to understand. Lula started in the 90s with Fidel Castro. And there are many poor people in Brazil. They don't know a lot about communism. So it's easy to attract those kind of people in Brazil with those lies, with populism. And that's what happened. So Lula is still a little bit popular, but we don't see that on the streets. That's very important to bring here

Starting point is 00:28:32 because we see the numbers. Is Joe Biden popular? Do you think Joe Biden is popular? The most popular president of all time, we've got 81 people. Let me do this. It's amazing. Let me go do this.

Starting point is 00:28:42 What I want to find out is, I want to find out a little want to find that little bit more about How boss and error created all this momentum who the best president? Like the Lincoln or the Reagan or the JFK of Brazil is I want to go kind of learn a little bit about history I go to Brazilian restaurant every Sunday and I always ask these guys tell me about Brazil What's going on with this and they're all Brazilian? It's the What do you call the model or they keep bringing? I love it. I love it.

Starting point is 00:29:05 Yeah. So I want to go a little bit more in the history, but let's first give a quick shout out to our sponsors, your funding grow. These guys came to my attention. We started looking at these guys of what they're doing as a small business owner. It's very important to have your finances in the right place

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Starting point is 00:30:59 So Lula, 83% popularity. I go back and I look at some of the stuff with this guy to see what he did. In the 80s, when he's coming up, he's a lay-the operator in a factory. Okay, so what he was doing. But he was a community organizer, right? Became the president of Metta,

Starting point is 00:31:19 Luridges Union. This was at the time where there were holding many strikers, for the workers, and he was kind of like a I don't want to say Jimmy Haffa, but he was a union name going out there Hey, it's not fair. This is not enough money. We love strike. Let's do this So he kept encouraging people to strike But then in 1990 when Fernando color de Mello One this I think this was his first time losing or second time, he's lost a few times for a bit for presidency.

Starting point is 00:31:48 He started South Paolo Forum in Brazil, which was officially created by Fidel Castro and Luis in Asiel with him. So in a time like this, and the whole outcome was, hey, organization's gonna bring people together from political parties and leftist organization from all over Latin America and the Caribbean where you're with a very clear and public plan of power

Starting point is 00:32:09 with what they want to do anyways. So when they created this at the time in Brazil, how did Brazil view Fidel Castro at this time? Did the people see him as a hero? Did they see him as a man this This guy cares about the poor people, and if Lula's gonna be like that, or was there not momentum created yet for Lula? Good point.

Starting point is 00:32:32 Listen, Brazil is very divided in terms of the political will and all that. Fidel Castro is a hero for a lot of people, especially in the universities, and upper classes. They love like a this narrative. All a guy that went against a dictatorship and took power to help people and they love that. So the education in Cuba, the social health in Cuba free health care. Yeah, freedom of care. They loved this narrative, but well nowadays I think they understand at least the majority they understand it sucks. So and just for you to understand during the many years there was only one guy that we both know and he passed away a few years ago

Starting point is 00:33:29 And he was very important to the right movement, Olavo de Carvalho. There was only one guy in the media talking about this The photo of the Sampala only him and in the mainstream media they were treating it as a conspiracy theory like no that doesn't exist The left is not united to bring back to Latin America what they lost in the in Europe So they thought it was a lie But yeah many people still think of their castor is a kind of hero and But with the social media, now many, many people can understand better what's going on in Cuba and all that. So there was no, it's important for you guys to understand.

Starting point is 00:34:17 There was no right wing movement in Brazil back then. And we are talking about less than a decade ago. There was no right wing movement. There are only one guy there, one another guy there, and that's it. Is it fair to say, like, when I read about both of these guys of politicians in a history of Brazil, the two most strongest personalities who are loud, who are, you know, charismatic, it's these two.

Starting point is 00:34:44 Bolsonaro and Lula, is that a fair assessment? We're very good at selling their vision and casting their vision and speaking to their base. And historically, there's not been, even JK who's known as your goat. You know, he's one of the greatest presidents you guys have had. You know, they view him as somebody,

Starting point is 00:35:01 a lot of people tell me this based on what I'm reading. Maybe you may correct me on that. You don't typically hear somebody that is, they're more poised the way they speak. Hey, here's what we do, this is what Brazil's all about. So was that one of the reasons why both of these guys got the kind of love that they got? I guess so.

Starting point is 00:35:19 Yeah, and they were both populists, but I have a different flavors, I'm not sure if it realism, but to the sense that they appeal to the common man more than to the to the to the establishment. But I have to say I've never seen anyone like Bolsonaro in the sense of how much people like him. It's even more than people like Stonel Trump, which is impressive, which is impressive. And I've been in rallies of both of them and I'm at both of them as well. And I have to say, I think people look at Bolsonaro, because Donald Trump is Donald Trump.

Starting point is 00:35:58 He's the billionaire in a skyscraper in New York. He's not a common man. He talks and appeals to the common man,. He's not a common man. He talks and appeals to the common man, but he's not a common guy. So both of now is the guy that eats in the steakhouse and drops far off a flower on his lap. It's like, it's very, and he's sincere. He's very sincere.

Starting point is 00:36:18 People see, you get what you pay for. Like, you can trust him. He's been genuine, and it's very different from mainstream politicians. Like it's not like Donald Trump palace that has gold and everything. It's more like if you, he's a, so first time I talked to him,

Starting point is 00:36:40 he was wearing a jersey watching a game like with his belly up. This is like what? It's this guy's the president. And that's the way he is. And it's really. People say, so I'm Antonio Trump. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:36:56 And he is exactly the same guy that you see on TV. Yes. But that guy is not a regular common man, American blue collar worker. Bolsonaro is a regular Brazilian guy. They're like soccer. Ordinary guy, yeah. Ordinary. But even the way you get to promote yourself though, when you're running for an election, especially a presidential election, there's some very specific restrictions in Brazil that we don't have here, right? So can you go into that a little bit also because I think the most people don't know That in here you can just go and raise some capital gets on money and you up and running promoting yourself

Starting point is 00:37:34 Both and I did not have the ability to promote himself when he was running for the first time because he's got to be Organized in a very specific way. How does it work though? And what do you have to do to overcome that very specific limitation? He couldn't go to regular media, he couldn't go to the record. And he didn't spend money. He won a presidential election with like four million dollars. One million dollars. But that's because he, yes, less than one million dollars.

Starting point is 00:37:56 Even if he wanted, past, even if he wanted to, by the way, even if he wanted to, he couldn't because the media, the sole restrictions, media wise, right? Yes, you need the parties. Correct. You have to be organising. First restriction, yes. Correct.

Starting point is 00:38:11 You need the parties that you need to be the money. It's a public money. One party in Brazil. Yeah. You can't run as an independent. Yeah. That's the law in Brazil. How many party are there?

Starting point is 00:38:20 There are many. There are many. 31. Yeah. Okay. Got it. But you need a party in the party use uh... not a few public money tax money yeah yeah so who's so can i go campaign and raise a billion and a half or two billion like a little bit of obama no you can't no there's no more uh... company uh... money anymore

Starting point is 00:38:38 they did the past the law many years ago after car wash actually who passed the law the the Car Wash, actually. Who passed the law? The Congress. The Congress. Okay, what do you guys think about the fact that money can't be involved in politics? Well, I think it's worse to have public money. Taxpayers money.

Starting point is 00:38:55 So public money can be, private money can't be. Yes. I believe the figure knows. For a billion. No, no, no, that's bullshit. I agree. So you want to use my money to go campaign for your election? Yes.

Starting point is 00:39:07 But the guys you don't want to vote. Isn't this the replacement of Mula? She did that, right? She used a bunch of the money and she got caught. Exactly. Yeah, I got you. So, okay, so going back for the question, you ask, because that's very important

Starting point is 00:39:18 if you can address your question. No, it's very important to understand what happened this election, because I think you were talking about 2018, first time he was elected. Correct, correct, the first time. There was the knife issue and that helped him a lot. But this time, we have in Brazil, electoral justice.

Starting point is 00:39:38 Like it's a branch of the Supreme Court. Three justices from the Supreme Court, three justices from the Supreme Court takes, they control this electoral justice. And it's very important what he's saying, that Brazil system is very different from the US. US has a state election system, and Brazil is so centralized into a all-powerful court. Yes.

Starting point is 00:40:03 Okay. This court has all the power, and we can get into the details on how they even became more powerful during this election. They gave themselves more powers, which is a different subject. But the system, it's first all electronic no-paper trails. Everything is done through a machine. And it's all centralized in a superior electoral court. The court is composed by judges and justices. So the main guys are three guys from the Supreme Court.

Starting point is 00:40:34 And then we're gonna come to Alexander Demoriz. It's the most important name here today, I think so. Yeah, so he was the one. He insert your moora. I wanna know about Sergio Moro's. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But let's start up at Alexander first. No because this guy is like Seriously, he's a where do you go? He's a bad guy from my my my question before we move on to that on my question is

Starting point is 00:40:56 He actually couldn't compete at the same level. So where did he go? He have to go Do you know this? I know it for the first one first one. He gets elected He doesn't have the structure, he doesn't have the organization, so he doesn't have access to the money. He goes where? Social media. Yeah, social media. So that's another similarity with Donald Trump.

Starting point is 00:41:16 He actually gets elected. But he doesn't have the money. I don't know. He did it with a million dollars. He was at his place. We're not talking about the ball country. Correct, we're still in the middle. He did it with a million dollars. He was at his place. We're not talking about the ball control. Correct. He was at his place.

Starting point is 00:41:26 He took a microphone, a chert cell phone, turned on the camera in a chip cell phone. It was like, hi, my name is Bolsonaro, and that's it. And like million, millions of views. And it was very organic, very natural. What happened? You know, he's a juggernaut on social media is I I've never seen anyone like him not even don't Trump it's unbelievable the the level of engagement that people yeah

Starting point is 00:41:54 What which one does he use he's got a YouTube down right he's got four five billion It's what is he is he all across like Facebook his trump was mainly Twitter and Facebook no he's all across He's he has a weekly live on Thursdays He used to have a weekly live on Thursdays that would always get a lot of you. Where is he right now? Home. He's in Brazil right now. No, he has no, and his content is live YouTube. Let's have play. They don't take his content No, they took no, they took they took okay and and and his Supporters as well. So that was, that, that, that, what I was after 2018, 2018, remember 2018 was before 2020.

Starting point is 00:42:32 That's when social media big tech went crazy, 2020, okay? Before that. And it's a very, another similarity with the United States after Bolsonaro won doing this in 2018 with one million dollars in social media, they got together the system and decided we cannot allow that to happen again. So we need to fight fake news and all that and they started the censorship that we have right now in Brazil.

Starting point is 00:43:00 We are under censorship. That's very important to understand the uh... the congressman to trust the news initiative all the the fact tracking international fact checking the even worse follow even worse because now we have let legal decisions that's that's a different that's a different level so we have the the congressman uh... necola svejda his uh... uh... both sonarista and uh... he's very young and he he he was the uh... both sonarista and uh... his very young and he he he was the one point five million votes he was the uh... the best

Starting point is 00:43:28 uh... candidate elected in in in this election right now his under censorship in brazil his uh... social media i don't i don't want to get sideline here but that there's a difference between the censorship in the u.s. and the censorship and and brazil okay the the big tech censorship in the United States is private. It's protected by the first amendment. It's something no one knows how to fix yet.

Starting point is 00:43:52 But it's, I own Twitter, I'm out of musk. I want you out of my company. It's the same thing. You don't have to offer service to someone you don't want to be your customer. Okay, it's one thing. We have to discuss that. But in Brazil, you have that, but you also have something that we didn't use to,

Starting point is 00:44:12 and it's against the law in Brazil, because we have the courts banishing people from social media. And not even the courts, sometimes only Alexander Demoraz. Like, it's his own decision. Like, one guy and says, take it off. Is it true that it is a crime not to doubt the outcome of the election? It's not a crime you can contest.

Starting point is 00:44:37 It's legal to do that. And the party do a little bit out, the Bolsonaro's party, just did that officially yesterday. It's a big news in Brazil right now. So they did it and it's legal. The problem is that Alexander de Morais is treating everyone that contests or complains about it as a criminal.

Starting point is 00:44:58 And the mainstream media is with him, is at his side. We gotta give you some context here to understand because that's a tough question. Okay. So back on the on the history of the little story I was telling. So when Bolsonaro got elected and the system went nuts, the establishment went nuts. The first thing, one of the first thing that the Supreme Force are doing was they created a probe against fake news. Okay, it was fake news probe.

Starting point is 00:45:31 And they did it in a very weird way because Brazil has the same accusatory system, which is the bad rock of the Western world due process of law. So what's the accusatory system? You have an investigator, an accuser, an impartial judge, a defendant, victims, everyone separated, everyone that different, different agents playing different roles. So the Supreme Court, they did something that was never seen, never seen in Brazil. They opened the probe saying, oh, there's something on our internal regiment, our internal bylaws of the Supreme Court, saying that if a crime happens inside

Starting point is 00:46:13 Supreme Court premises, we can open an investigation. We can open a probe. So right now, internet, if someone says something bad about us, that's kind of like it happened inside our court. And it's kind of a attack, a crime. And people are criticizing us. It's kind of like an attack. Yeah, attack. They are.

Starting point is 00:46:36 They are a threat to democracy because they are criticizing us. That's really what's going on. I'm not making this up. I'm not making this up. It's hard to believe. So they were the victims of an attack. So they opened the investigator, the investigation,

Starting point is 00:46:51 and they brought a federal police chief directly to report to them. So they were, they had control of the investigation as well. So they were the victims, the investigators. They were also, so the Department of Justice refused to take part in it, because there's no crime of fake news or whatever in Brazil. So they said, no, this whole thing is always legal,

Starting point is 00:47:14 and you can't open an investigation, and we're not taking part of it. So they said, okay, we're gonna do it without you. So, and it's like, what? Constitution in Brazil says you can only prosecute someone with the department of justice Same as in the u.s a judge can as much as generals flin general flin's just a judge Tried to prosecute them he couldn't because the department of justice refused to prosecute him so same thing in brazil by the law

Starting point is 00:47:39 so and and again, they did that and They did a second one and then to do it again They they came up with a very similar one anti-democratic acts about people demonstrating on the streets And they were like this is anti-democratic because you're asking for military intervention You're you're protesting against institutions. So that's against democracy But there's no under Brazilian constitution. You do have one the right of free speech to it's the the prior censorship is Forbidden you can't do it government can

Starting point is 00:48:15 Impose prior censorship to no individuals. There's no crime of fake news There's none on the Brazilian they tried to pass a legislation and they failed. They failed. Yeah. And but with all that, they decided to do it anyways. So they started coming after and without a due process, they started to arrest journalists, journalists, congressmen, congressmen, there was a congressman that was arrested

Starting point is 00:48:45 I saw that because of a crime of opinion Community organizers the all started to be arrested So and that started in the fake news probe and then the anti-democratic probe all that that happened And they they went after even Businessman big business man I'm talking for example the guy that owns the biggest small chain and probably Latin America. And a huge investment here by the way. I have a huge investment here in the US.

Starting point is 00:49:09 So I'm talking about a guy that owns a big retail store like Sears in Brazil. They started going after supporters of Bolsonaro, journalists, congressmen, businessmen, and without due process because they were not being charged currently in the US. There's a guy living here in Florida, a guy named Alan Ducentus. This guy is a journalist, he used to have the biggest independent news channel in Brazil, okay, YouTube channel.

Starting point is 00:49:39 It was a business that was doing well. And this guy, he's being investigated under Alexander Demorage probe, the fake news. Well, then they changed the fake news to digital militias probe. They switched the name, but it's the same thing. And militia in Brazil doesn't mean the same thing as in the US. It's like a gang. It's like an organized gang. But Alandus Santos is... They just took his passport this way. Yes, they canceled his passport.

Starting point is 00:50:13 They issued an arrest warrant against him. He was in the US, so he stayed here. He's under political asylum in the United States right now. They froze in all his accounts. They closed his media company. And right now is in the United States. And the best is yet to come. Paul always is giving a whole bill. And it's because you ask a tough question. Yes, it was illegal. And I would say, let me know. It's not illegal. But it is, but it is in practical terms.

Starting point is 00:50:46 Let me give you one example. There's one huge entrepreneur in Brazil. The police came to his office at six o'clock in the morning, seven o'clock in the morning. His crime was in a WhatsApp group, closed group. They were talking about Lula and the possibilities of Lula going back to power and the guy, one of them said, oh, I rather live in a dictatorship

Starting point is 00:51:12 than that. And the guy like sent a like, a like, and that's it, like. He liked the message. He liked the message. And the police was at his place six. Get out of here. And he's at his favorite Six and his and his and his a huge David WhatsApp group His a billionaires. He's a billionaires wait wait wait a billionaire like the post I'd rather have a dictator not a post

Starting point is 00:51:34 What's up military government. Yeah, what's up military? I'd rather have a military government. They're having this Lula in office back I was part of the group. I was part of, I was in the group. And that's it. No one, no one was talking about a coup. There was no strategy being built, nothing. It was just complaining about Lula. So let me be clear because it's important.

Starting point is 00:51:57 And it's important for the US to understand. Brazil right now is under a dictatorship. It's not, it doesn't come from the executive power. It comes from the judiciary. There's no rule of law anymore. There's a rule of one person. And this guy, that's what I, what I said, this guy looks like a bad guy from James Bond movies.

Starting point is 00:52:21 He's doing all that and he's kind of crazy. I don't care. There's no one to stop me right now. And that's the situation right now. There are a lot of people in the streets right now, as we speak. And they are desperate. They are like, please, someone do something. And of course, they look at the military power because that's what's left. But this is nothing new though. This is is it's been going on for a while. We wouldn't you agree that this is not at this level.

Starting point is 00:52:49 Not at this level. It became much worse. Much worse. But what do you think? What do you see in absolutely starting? Like at what point do you see this power grab taking place internally, standard presidential level?

Starting point is 00:52:59 Is some of the other bodies that taking power, taking control? That's not something that you can hide on the table. That's a reflection point. When Dilma was in are taking power, taking control, that's not something that you can hide under the table. That's an inflection point. When Duma was in Pitchett, for example, our constitution, listen, I don't like our constitution that much. It was written one year before the Berlin Wall falls now.

Starting point is 00:53:17 1988. Yeah, so it's a very communist constitution, but that's what we have. And the constitution is very clear. The 52, the 52nd article, it's very clear when you were in Pitchett, you lose your political powers for eight years, so you cannot be a candidate. The Justice Livandowski, he just turned it down and said, no, okay, you can go and she was a candidate to the Senate. She lost, but she was able to be a candidate. And that was the inflection point. I think.

Starting point is 00:53:52 I think. I think. I think. I mean, when Montesquieu came up with the three branches of power system and the framers of the US Constitution, they came up with the, they put it in place. And they always thought about the judiciary or judicial branch as the weaker one, right? Montesquies used to say that they're next to nothing.

Starting point is 00:54:16 And the Federalist papers, you see them saying, well, there's no risk of a judiciary dictatorship because they don't have the power of the purse or the power of the sword. So what do they have? They're bound to the loss and to the common law. And that's the way they thought the system. Well, that's good enough if you think that the judge needs to stick by the laws

Starting point is 00:54:47 Chex and Balace so if it went so when you have a textualist or Or or generalist or or generalist is that a sense of thing originally originally like scallia So they're bond to the intention of the legislator well if you have a progressive the intention of the legislator. Well, if you have a progressive view of the law, the law is a living body, and the law with the purpose, the teleological interpretation of social justice and all that. Social justice. You're not bon to that anymore. So the end is what matters. Okay, so the means are irrelevant. So if you have to interpret the law and bend it a little bit in order to achieve the N

Starting point is 00:55:31 that you desire, then everything's permissible. So every judge is a dictator. So my point on the Operation Car Wash, and that brings me to Sergio Moro is that I think Sergio Moro bended the law to achieve his purposes. And Operation Car Wash was a big inflection point in my opinion against the due process of wine Brazil. And that's I really believe that. I think bad guys went to jail, which is good, but you don't have to only, and the due process, you don't have to only be guilty. You need to be prosecuted under the due process of law. And they were not, most of them were not.

Starting point is 00:56:14 And Sergio Moro, and for political reasons, I believe, and Deltan de laio, and other prosecutors, and they became politicians. And a good evidence for that, is that that search tomorrow became a minister and now he's a senator don't tell all the prosecutor is now uh... uh... congressman congressman congressman elect is this guy it can you pull up uh... this picture so the audience can see it is this guy Alexander the more uh... the more the more is he a feared man i mean if you can do the picture a little bit

Starting point is 00:56:44 yes he seems like a very friendly guy Look at the picture. He just look very friendly. Can I answer Patrick with a very straight answer? I'm not going to Brazil anymore to visit none of us. I have family there. What happens if you go to Brazil? I'm afraid I'm afraid I could be arrested for any crime that they create. Would you say that this guy is running the country? Yes. Oh, absolutely. He's run the country.

Starting point is 00:57:09 Of course. So, Bolsonaro, he's not alone. Like, you look at him and you understand that there are a system. A whole system corrupts. A structure behind him. He wouldn't do that alone. Come on, he looks like a James Bond villain. Yeah, he is.

Starting point is 00:57:22 It looks like. It's probably the haircut. It's the haircut. It's the way that he behaves. He's very weird. I believe he's a psychopath. How did he get to power? What did he do before? He was Tamer.

Starting point is 00:57:34 He was Tamer choice. Minister of Justice. Minister of Justice. And he used to work for it. Look at that. That's going to be interesting. He used to work to... to get all the alkening by the way is that vice president elected with lula

Starting point is 00:57:50 so uh... look how impartial all that uh... was in bros i was in the like i was just as you wouldn't believe so one guy is the former lawyer of the uh... ms m st uh... the the of the MST, I don't know how to say that, we don't have that in there. And I say, it's the movement of people

Starting point is 00:58:11 that want to occupy land. Like if you see a farm farm and they go there and they go in the invaders, they invade land and they take ownership of it. There's a legal movement of that in Brazil invaders. Okay. So one of the their lawyers is now one of the Supreme Court Chases. Oh, I just wanted to know what I says a very weird pass. I think we can say that because we're in the US.

Starting point is 00:58:37 If we say that in Brazil right now, we would be in jail. Okay. But he is his firm was lawyer of a company that was accused of money laundry for Brazil's largest drug cartel That's that's a fact. Yeah, that's in the news the conflict of interest is our huge in Brazil and and just for you to understand them What another very important name to this discussion that we haven't brought yet is Rodrigo Pacheco. Oh, yeah. He's the president of the Senate.

Starting point is 00:59:11 And under the checks and balances system that Paulo was talking about, it comes to the Senate to impeach one of those justices. They are the ones that could stop this, dictatorship right now. And Rodrigo Pacheheco who owns a firm a law firm That has a lot of interest in in the supreme court system a lot of decisions that they they need to do to make and that It's going to impact a lot his firms He doesn't do anything. He says all everything is normal in brazil now institutions are working perfectly

Starting point is 00:59:45 we don't need to worry about so it's like this guy is a trader right now he's a trader he is accomplished uh... of this uh... elixir the morat's guy Rodrigo uh... uh... palo who is who's your link in who's your ragan who's your who's the the individual that brought up the economy because you know

Starting point is 01:00:05 I pull up names and I'll go and see hey who is Jettulio don't don't know don't know as Vargas. Okay. What did he do okay? Jocelyn no kubecek okay, hey, he took the economy from 42nd economy to the eight largest you know That's who that's that's... That was under the military rule. That's under the military rule. I read about your grandfather, right? He was a former chief of Brazil Secret Service. He was a director of your Secret Service is what he did and he brought democracy back

Starting point is 01:00:38 to Brazil and spent a lot of time with Reagan. I've seen him and Reagan horseback riding together. They spent time together. You know, you go and you look at Tanc tank redone never's the sky didn't make it too long he gave a speech after inauguration and then no no he never inaugurate he died before he died before inauguration and his vice president Jose sarane took over and then he increased inflation to two thousand percent is what he did

Starting point is 01:01:00 froze prices to try to control inflation causing products to disappear from supermarkets, which led to a period of widespread famine. Then comes Fernando Colour. Argentina is going through that. I know. I went there. It was a very strange situation there.

Starting point is 01:01:14 Then you have Fernando Colour, 1990-92. On the first day of government, he froze bank accounts of all Brazilians for 18 months. Is that true? For 18 months, with a maximum withdrawal of what would be the equivalent of $5,000 today he was impeached in a second year in office for corruption. Then you have Ita Mar Franco. He stabilized the economy at a significant cause bringing hope back to population. Then you have Fernando Cardoso, 95-03, started Brazil transition to welfare state, raised

Starting point is 01:01:42 federal taxes from twenty four to thirty four percent base interest rate of the economy sell it as you know i see reached forty five percent per year then you have the silver he does what he does involved in the biggest corruption of all time then you have deal modden you have michael then you have uh... it's amazing how brazil survive what what i'm trying to make him a great

Starting point is 01:02:02 and then i go to uh... bol, 2012, in addition to the high dead and public deficit, he inherited 14 million unemployed when he took over the government, even with the pandemic and the war in Ukraine, he ends up his turn with 8 million unemployed, which is 6 million more people working. Public dead when he entered inflation, Lord and the american and economic growth hard in china uh... you're doing well but but sonato but sonato he he he was very humble to admit that he doesn't understand about economy so he named the guy he used to be my boss for six years paulogadis i think it's the most important name in bril and at least in terms of economics uh pa Gad is a PhD from University of Chicago. He studied with Milton Friedman and all that.

Starting point is 01:02:51 And he was able to liberalize our economy during this last four years, even with the pandemic and all that. And he showed very good results. We did the biggest privatization in 20 years with El Etrobras, or a electric system company. It was the biggest in 20 years.

Starting point is 01:03:12 Many reforms. Many reforms. Bolsonaro is not Reagan, but Paulo Gattis was able to do a lot of things. It was Paulo like a Newt Gingrich or Milton Friedman, is that who Paulo wears? Yes. He was Paulo and knew to understand a little bit of economy. Okay, so the criticism of Bolsonaro it gets more than 1000 fires in the Amazon, you know, the mishandling of COVID, that's

Starting point is 01:03:34 the criticism that they give them. Yes, yes. So Bolsonaro's mishandling of COVID is pretty much 99% what our governor did here in Florida. That's what the policy that he's tried to implement, but then the Supreme Court stepped in and said it had no power and the power belong to the governors and mayors, which is the, it is the system in the US, but it's not the legal system members.

Starting point is 01:04:01 It's different. We don't have a federalist system. Who's your Reagan? Who's your Lincoln? Who's your, we are looking? Our society didn't produce these guys. These are unique guys from the American society. These are exceptions in the world. Well, I would say we have some very nice guys. The guys during the military government, I have to say, they did a very very very good job in certain senses such as well such as bringing Brazil from the forty seven uh... worlds economy to to the who did that

Starting point is 01:04:30 who would the military military president there was uh... the the the the the well castellou branco and uh... uh... carama uh... the sardinay of the economy uh... the guy that was with all those presents, but during the military power, he did very important reforms. So just forgot his name, right?

Starting point is 01:04:50 We've, we've, Brazil grew so much, grew at China pace during the military government. Crime rates were very low. And, and the problem is, and that's the problem. The, the freedom, individual freedom was restricted. And that's when my grandfather stepped in, and when he took over, he gave full amnesty

Starting point is 01:05:15 to political people there were being politically prosecuted, and he handled the government to the civil society back again. and the government to the civil society back again. Now that's in a sense, a sort of foundation of the country, which is very sad for me if you think about it. So, you can't... Delfinato is the name of... Yeah.

Starting point is 01:05:40 So, if you think about it, you mentioned Jatulivaga. Jatulivaga was a dictator kind of fascist in a certain sense. He flirted with fascism, a very, very laftest like... He's a labor party, TV. Union guy, Union guy, labor party. I was like, okay. And a dictator. So my great-grandfather was arrested and prosecuted by him and spent years in jail because...

Starting point is 01:06:07 You're great, great, great grandfather. Great, great grandfather. Got it. So because he made a revolution trying to seize power and take him out of office, not him, seize power, but to take Jatulio Vargas out of office. He was arrested and all that. So his son, so someone that suffered under a dictatorship, became

Starting point is 01:06:27 the president one day, which is interesting how history works, right? And he was like, no, no, my father suffered under a dictatorship. So I believe in the Western world liberal, liberal in the classic sense, liberal system, democracies. So he said, I'm going to transition everything to a liberal democracy. And he did. And that was, and that was a great thing. But the problem is, and it's very sad for me personally, to see that right now, he hadn't had to work so hard to transition from military government to civil society in power. And right now the civil society is saying we failed. We want the military to step in again. And that's very sad for me personally because my family lagged.

Starting point is 01:07:15 We opened the politics before the economics and the constitution came before the Berlin wall. And you were talking about the Amazon, and all those are all narratives. Like the globalism is very interested in Brazil. Amazon is very rich, and all that. We have water, we have a good culture, and Macron, and all those people are saying, no, Lula, come here, and to tell you the truth,

Starting point is 01:07:43 I think like Lula is selling the Amazon, and to tell you the truth, I think like Lulu is selling the Amazon and all that to those guys to reach power. Bolsonaro was the opposite. He was like, I don't care what you're saying about Amazon, it's ours. And it's a kind of sovereignty with nationalism. But we're gonna protect what is ours. And the world right now, it's looking at this,

Starting point is 01:08:08 it's going on everywhere. Like the globalism, the bruschelas, bruschos. But Brazil, actually, the Amazon jungle, Amazon forest, lost, lost during Bolsonaro's term, then under Lulist term.

Starting point is 01:08:26 And 84% is preserved. 84% is half of Brazil territory. It's a Europe. It's Europe. Like everything is preserved. But if you look at history, though, Latin America goes through that period, and I will say Latin American general, because it was an overwhelming amount of countries, that for whatever reason, found itself under the rule of the army.

Starting point is 01:08:49 Armed forces, it was a weird thing. It was at the same time it was actually happening. And it's the lowest period of crime for most of these countries. It's the lowest period of corruption for most of these countries. And then is the transition out of the army into what is supposed to be a democratic structure, democratic government, right? Most countries right now going at the same time through the face of the romanticism of Fidel Castro, Cuba's taking place from the Catholic Church liberation theology, Gustavo

Starting point is 01:09:19 Gutierrez takes on, right? And so the narrative of socialism, it's already happening there at that level. So countries are dividing themselves with a group of people. There are central center right because they coming out of that army foundation, but immediately the philosophy and everything that's being taught, churches and schools is center left. And increasingly in some countries it started is center left. And increasingly in some countries,

Starting point is 01:09:46 they start going center left. When Patrick was asking a question, who is your, you know, who's your runner rig at, who is your, and that's small window of time. There's a number of things happening, including, is that just the economy that's growing? The population basically quadruple. You went from like 50,000,000 to 215,000,000.

Starting point is 01:10:07 So there's a lot to control there. Listen, if you're a politician today, if you're gonna be running for anything, you have to know what happened in history. You have to know what's taking place there. And so the narrative that is gonna be put forward is gotta counter that, right? So let me ask your question

Starting point is 01:10:25 What do you think he did wrong? His four years of the hundredth century. He's four years as a president. He knows that guy is there the other guy is there He knows that there's been around for so many years He knows too many battles first of all like he needed to be more strategically Kind of person. He fought too many battles. The whole media was against him with fake narratives. He knew that going in.

Starting point is 01:10:52 He knew that, but he wasn't able to ride this, as movefully, like that. He misused social media with the gathering elected. No, I think, I think, first of all, during the pandemic, he could show a different behavior. I think so. That was one mistake. Not in terms of policies.

Starting point is 01:11:12 In terms of policies, it was just like rounded scientists. Fighting for freedom against this whole craziness around the world. But do you know where the Brazil reinstituted masks on airplanes yesterday? Just now. What? Just now. Brazil reinstituted masks.

Starting point is 01:11:32 Mentor. Mentor. Mentor. Yeah. It's like, what? I read this. Now it's just as surprised as you. It's like, what for what?

Starting point is 01:11:39 I woke up with these news. There's different rules. I'm gonna bring again. Right there. Just two months after a lifting, a longstanding mask mandate for airports and aircraft, Brazil has reinstated a policy but will not go as far as a ban in flight meal service again. Brazil's health authority on visa

Starting point is 01:11:57 announced the changes this week and the mandate will go into effect on Friday, November 25th. You gotta be kidding me. I don't make things up. I know, I know people that are watching me are like, this disguise, full of. He's making things up. And not nothing that I'm talking is made up.

Starting point is 01:12:12 Everything's through. Well, you have your own problems, like no, with FDA and all, yeah. Oh, gee, Dr. Fauci. But in Brazil, everything is worse. So I think he could like show a different behavior, especially for the people that like the statics point of life. Like, this guy cares about me.

Starting point is 01:12:40 He's saying nice things. And Bolsonaro is not like this. As we mentioned, what you get is what you pay for. But people don't like it. Some people, especially in the... He's not a strategist. Bolsonaro is not a strategist. And to quote, we mentioned a guy here called Professor Olavo Gicavalho.

Starting point is 01:13:00 He's, Rodrigo mentioned him. He's probably the most important thinker in Brazil. And what he used to say before he passed away, he recently passed away a few months ago. He used to say that Bolsonaro's election was a miracle to Brazilian society. And it was, it was just a miracle. And he, the main idea is the same as the Breitbart doctrine, the politics is downstream from culture. And that's the reason Bolsonaro was a miracle because the cultural system in Brazil is too embedded by the left.

Starting point is 01:13:35 So the mistake that Olávig Kaválio believed that Bolsonaro did is that once he took office, he thought he could govern with all the structure of the establishment and still be able to govern. And he needed to change central points in the society so he would be able to govern. I have a personal, it's an interesting point of view, but it's easier said than done.

Starting point is 01:14:02 It is, but I have a more practical point of view. I think, and you really believe that he wanted, thinking like that, that he was gonna be able to change the attitudes, a lot of structure that has been in place for so many years, which is being naive as though it should. He was, of course he was naive. He was never in office. And I think he made a serious mistake

Starting point is 01:14:22 because politics in Brazil is much easier than politics in the US in a sense Let me explain why if you're a Republican president and you get elected if you have the majority in the house or the Senate You'll be able to approve your and pass your bills. That's that's it No Democrat will vote for you most of the times menching is an exception Most of the times no Democrat will vote with a Republican and most of the times Republicans will move a lone vote with them Democrat. In Brazil, the system's 31 parties.

Starting point is 01:14:52 And they're not ideological. Congress members are not ideological as they are in the US. So you can pretty much buy them. I'm not talking about bribe, just to be clear. You can buy their favors just with political support. You know, it's crazy you're saying this. I'm at Harvard at an executive program for three weeks. And it is the face of the class where everybody's open dialogue they're talking with each other. There's 144 of us from 60 plus countries. And one of the guys says, you know, I have a business. We had 25% of market share.

Starting point is 01:15:25 We were doing great, but a new business has come up and it's taken 6% away from me. And it's really become a pain in about for us. It's annoying. How do you guys handle this from different parts of the country? One of the guys, he says, well, it's very easy. Who's running for office? And he says, what do you mean?

Starting point is 01:15:43 He says, well, in Brazil, what we do is, you just look for who's running for office that can help pass some laws. You give them some cash. And when they go in, if they need a favor, they're gonna pay their favor for you, create new regulations to hurt them. And the way he said it, he didn't have a smile on his face.

Starting point is 01:15:59 He said it as if it's written in business books that this is how you put out a small business, you know, it was very much of a matter of fact, a way of communicating. But I want to go to this with today with the conditions that's going on. Iran was playing England two days ago. They lost 62, okay. But the main captain of the team, they, they, they didn't sing the national anthem. It was a very controversial thing to do.

Starting point is 01:16:25 When you do something like that, you go up against the Iranian government, which who knows what's gonna happen when these guys go back? Because just a couple weeks ago, they're bowing down to Reisi, and a lot of people were not happy. And then they go, and then they don't sing the Iranian

Starting point is 01:16:41 and anthem because what they feel is going on over there is unfortunate, and it's not fair on what they're doing to the Iranian and anthem because what they feel is going on over there is unfortunate and it's not fair on what they're doing to the women all this stuff. Anyways, Brazil's the leading invagus, the odds are Brazil's number one. Argentina was number two until they lost to Saudi Arabia and today is a national holiday in Saudi Arabia. I don't know if people know this from here because they beat Argentina, which I'm sure you guys are very happy about, right? So how much of this you think is going to play a role in the world uh...

Starting point is 01:17:08 platform with the brazil playing and may mar i think they mar said good things about both and are if i'm not mistaken open open support yet he's an open support of a boss and i'll which is not common in american sports to be an open support over trump you don't even talk about it's a few are same thing is okay i mean we know in American sports to be an open support over Trump. You don't even talk about it, if you are. Same thing as a rule. Okay.

Starting point is 01:17:26 I mean, we know Brady had some relationship with Trump and Kraft, but Jacelle is all about Lula. Jacelle is team Lula, is she not? Nope. Jacelle is Bolsonaro as well. No, she's, Jacelle hasn't said a word. What I've heard is she's more Lula than Moussa. No, I'm gonna come out in her defense. Because are you doing

Starting point is 01:17:46 that because she's singing as I what you're doing is that why you know we have some friends in common and uh you're not a good guy. I'm impressed by you. I'm gonna I'm not gonna speak on her behalf. Yeah. But I'm gonna say I'm gonna say that

Starting point is 01:17:58 she is not pro Lula. I've heard no she's not okay. Well I'm just telling you my what you can know me all right you can but he's also saying you know there's no I've heard. No, she's not. Okay. Well, I'm just telling you. You can hold me. All right. You can, but he's also saying he doesn't know her. Okay. It's hard to understand. There's a lot of pressure. Wish he's got a celebrity to choose Lula because everybody. Come on. Yeah. It's very. I think if in Giselle's case, I think no, that's what happened. Well, Gustavo Lima came out, Giselle didn't, doesn't want to show any support to Bolsonaro because that would, yeah, it's that's right. I can't, I can't.

Starting point is 01:18:31 To her in. So that's, and that's, that's, that's Gustavo Lima, country singer is, uh, he doesn't care. Yeah, he doesn't care. So, so what, what do you think is going to happen with the sole situation here? Well, you think, you think Neymar's going to say anything, you think they're, or they're just going to play the game and go about business as usual and no one's going to know what's really going on. Pretty much more. Yeah. Listen, soccer, football, our football, soccer in Brazil is very popular. It's a religion. It's a religion. And there is an ongoing discussion about the uses of soccer to politics. Correct. So it's an ongoing situation. Right now, a lot of people are on the streets. They are thinking that our future is going to be decided in the next days or weeks.

Starting point is 01:19:16 We could become the next Argentina, the next Venezuela, or we could do something and get rid of Lula and all that. So they are not that interested. Many people in Brazil are not that interested in the World Cup right now because of that. And there's one guy very interested if he shows the picture. He looks like a crazy guy.

Starting point is 01:19:37 He used to be a presidential candidate. His name is Anayas Carnero. And Anayas Carnero. E-N-E-A-S. Yes,eas Carnero. And Eneas Carnero. E-N-E-A-S. Yes, he. Carnero. He used to say that when people in Brazil ignore soccer and fuckles only on politics,

Starting point is 01:19:59 things are... She would worry about the break out. That's a bit serious, you say. But maybe what's going on right now is this. But one of the things Patrick is saying, because Pat, they kept in the team, cones out in an oppressed conference. This guy is putting his life on risk.

Starting point is 01:20:14 That boy took the, I mean, and I'm weird not just saying that. This is a guy that if he chooses to go back to Iran, he more than likely is facing death. So where's the temperature in Brazil right now? We're not in that level yet. But it's amazing how things change fast. I don't believe we would get to this point.

Starting point is 01:20:37 We're not Iran. It's a different society, different structure. But what he's saying is we have credible fears to go back to Brazil. And a lot of people are like that. I can mention the person's name, but there's another person that's here and the most as applying for asylum. And the amount of calls, and I'm sure you get them as well. Do you know anyone? Do you know anyone personally, personally, that has disappeared?

Starting point is 01:21:07 No, no, it doesn't work like that. No, what happened is for example, there's a guy, a former president of a party in Brazil, PTB called Roberto Jefferson, okay? Roberto Jefferson, he, He's a, He's a, In Jefferson, in Brazil. Yes, white guy.

Starting point is 01:21:26 White guy, yes. And the thing is he was arrested by a list of the more eyes, okay, and in Brazil, same as the US, like me, around the laws, right? You get arrested, you have the right to an attorney. This is the first thing that cops ask you, right? It's the same thing in Brazil. We have the same me, run the,

Starting point is 01:21:44 the right. Right. And, They're on the right rights, and but Alicia de Morais decided on his arrest warrant that he didn't have the right of an attorney unless Alterized by court. It's like what? Alterized by court no, no, not only a lawyer not only an attorney, but he didn't have the right to see his family or a priest. So he didn't disappear. And he's sick, by the way. And he has cancer. Well, he has cancer and he's mentally ill for sure.

Starting point is 01:22:14 But for, even the DOJ said, no, this guy's mentally ill, let's commit him. But before the DOJ actually asked for his, for him being committed, Alicia and the Moraes, I should have the rest weren't to avoid having him committed instead of going to jail. And that's a way of disappearing. But there's another way of disappearing right now. You remember the world change. How do you disappear right now? Just delete the person's social media. So you have a congresswoman for example banks banks banks if they're

Starting point is 01:22:49 Counts yeah, they did that with more than 40 40 groups related to the trucks and So so if you we have a for example him mentioned mentioned the most voted congressman in Brazil, and kid called Nicholas, he's 20-something year old, most voted 1.5 million votes for Congress. That's huge. We have another lady, the most voted woman, congresswoman in the country, lady named Zimbabwe,

Starting point is 01:23:22 and she had her, all her social media accounts as well. She was de-platform but not by Twitter not by big tech. All I'm mentioning is by court orders. And she was here last week with you. Yeah. To complicate. We filed. We filed a lawsuit on the Inter-American Commission of Human Rights because it's not focused on the elections and we can talk about elections which is a separate chapter. But we filed a lawsuit about violation of free speech, violation of freedom of the press, violation of due process, violation of congressional immunity and all that's ongoing in Brazil and violation of right to protest. So it's ongoing in Brazil. And violation of a right to protest.

Starting point is 01:24:06 So it's a human right. All that is in the declaration, the international declaration of human rights of the United Nations. And all that is part of the San Jose, the Costa Rica pact, the Brazil is a signer. So, and that's why we filed a lawsuit, a formal lawsuit that's ongoing

Starting point is 01:24:24 on the Inter-American Court of Human Rights. I filed as a journalist, she filed as a congresswoman, but, and that's, that's the equivalent of disappearing. Let's say, we, both of us, we work for, on the same station in Brazil. It's the second largest, to view, new station in Brazil. Most, some of our shows are number one in the country. It's, and it's a one-year-old television. It's growing 80 88 year old company one-year-old television was radio Yeah, most radio. Yeah, it was radio before that and our TV station Got censored by court order there were certain words

Starting point is 01:25:02 We couldn't use They're not gonna to believe it. It's true. We were not supposed to say on air that Lula is an ex-con. Is an ex-con or his guilty. We are not supposed to say that by court order. He gets off in a technical 25,000 hei's like a 5,000, yeah, $5,000 per time, per time you mentioned it. And as a fine, the content gets removed and they have the right to answer and to respond to it. All the same.

Starting point is 01:25:37 It is a prior, prior to what we say and the temperature is high. Like if you search on Google, what happened just yesterday or two days ago in Goyana, I mean, if that's the case, they invaded the assembly, the state assembly, because they were trying to pass increases, tax increases. And the people are angry, if that's the case, they're doing that. What campaign would be an interesting campaign if the people from Brazil are listening to this and you believe Lula's an ex-con, a fantastic hashtag would be hashtag Lula ex-con.

Starting point is 01:26:15 Oh no, we won't. And let that go trend. And that, because at this point, the guy that's running Twitter is a guy named Ilan. I don't know if you've heard Ilan this guy about Twitter. We tried to reach out to him because Twitter and he was being, yeah, he did reply to my post. But we, we, I don't believe he's aware of the importance

Starting point is 01:26:35 in protest of Twitter in Brazil right now because Twitter is still censoring people more than the courts because the courts can only, how can they do that though? Well, because the court can fire more than half the people Man stream media pressure no no no no no what I'm using brazil are the same still the same they fire half of it But the other half how many employees this would have Brazil how many the employees as a I don't know but 80% of them have a Purple hair so this like did you hear about what the Elon found yesterday in his office? Did you see what he showed yesterday in his office?

Starting point is 01:27:04 Go to Elon's Twitter account and showed the little clip of 15 seconds of what the audio on it You hear about what Elon found yesterday in his office? Did you see what he showed yesterday in his office? Go to Elon's Twitter account and show the little clip of 15 seconds and put the audio on it. Pretty wild what Elon found yesterday in his office at Twitter headquarters, which is like what the hell? Go to media, go to media. Okay, so it pops up. Okay, actually go back.

Starting point is 01:27:19 There you go. Right there. Do the audio. Do the audio so we can add the much thing and there's an entire closet full of hash tag work. There we are. Add the much thing and there's an entire entire closet. This is employees at Twitter wearing a shirt saying, they won't posit.

Starting point is 01:27:45 The only thing they didn't do there is work. Yeah, then. Do I look surprised? So in Brazil, Twitter is still censoring people. So my girlfriend's mother was censored from Twitter. I'm talking about a 62 normal old lady from Brazil. And she was censored by Twitter. And again, second time.

Starting point is 01:28:07 And Twitter is still censoring more Brazilians than the Supreme Court. Because the Supreme Court can only censor as so many people. They can't do it for thousands of people, but Twitter with their staff and their algorithm and all that, they can ban more people. And just an example, the hashtag Brazil was stolen, it was a big hashtag, started trending after an Argentinian guy denounced the problems with Brazil.

Starting point is 01:28:38 He had fallen in consistences with the results. With the results. After he denounced that in a live streaming, YouTube took down his live stream before he ended. The Twitter hashtag Brazil was only trending and Twitter took the hashtag down. And that's the big tech censoring. Not court orders, big tech. So who's not censoring this YouTube censoring, Facebook censoring is is anybody not censoring everybody's let me give you an example. I put the report of the Argentinian guy with the inconsistent in my telegram channel. Okay. I have a telegram channel

Starting point is 01:29:22 with a little over a hundred thousand people people I put it up the original report and I said I want people to look into that and see if that's true or not because that's what a journalist to you Ask for other experts opinion so I make it public. I made it public I Got a court order of the supreme electoral court superior electoral court Taking down my shedding down my telegram account for a week, just for sharing a report. And I was like, what?

Starting point is 01:29:55 Do I have access to the charges against me? Nope, I never received any citation, any I was never served. I don't have access to the process. And by the way, if you guys don't know, I think Rodrigo, both of you guys have a 1.1 million followers on Twitter, a million. I have 1.5 million and I'm not certified yet.

Starting point is 01:30:16 I have 1.1, 1, not certified yet. We gotta pay your eight bucks, hurry up and pay your eight bucks to get that. And then you guys both have- They're not available for Android, so. And you guys both have a million subscriber channel. But I want to talk about this one story with Tucker said, just three weeks ago, which is kind of weird

Starting point is 01:30:32 and why would America be interested in this? It's a story of Tucker Carlson calls out CIA and YouTube for interfering in Brazil's election. Tucker Carlson questioned the narrow presidential election and revealed that YouTube announced it will be censoring any post that raised doubts about the vote total. So not only Brazilians are not allowed to question the election results, but neither are Americans.

Starting point is 01:30:56 YouTube said they are expanding their existing election integrity policy to prohibit content, advancing false claims that widespread fraud errors or glitches occurred in 2022 election presidential election Carlson also accused the CIA of interfering in the Brazilian election for over a year and Pressuring President Bolsonaro's office to not question the election results Biden CIA director personally per share per pressured Bolsonaro's office to accept the results of the election

Starting point is 01:31:25 long before the election took office. Why is America so interested in Brazilian, Brazil's election? I have a different view of what happened there. Tell us. So this is what happened. I believe Reuters or Associated Press published a story about this, saying that the CIA director, he was in Brazil, and that he pressured Bolsonaro directly.

Starting point is 01:31:48 This is a Reuters article. I think it's a Reuters. Either Reuters or Associated Press, what's the difference? They're the same. Mainstream leftists, okay, press agencies. One of them published the story. The goal of the story was to put pressure on Bolsonaro on the international community so he would accept the story. The goal of the story was to put pressure on Bolsonaro on the international community so he would accept the results. So when the story broke out, I contacted my sources and the Bolsonaro's

Starting point is 01:32:15 administration and all of them said, what? This never happened. We talked but we never even mentioned elections this never happened i don't know where this reporter uh came up with the story and and and that was and and of course cia united because it would be very weird for the cia to rise the diplomacy doesn't work like that and if both sonato received something like that, he would probably tell the CIA director to go, I don't know, somewhere else. And I found very weird. So that's why I checked in both sides of the night.

Starting point is 01:32:57 But then Bernie Sanders in the US Senate mentioned it. He mentions that the story. So then when he mentions the story, the story became a fact, because it's now on the Senate's records, okay? So I believe that was not actually, and the guy that talked to Tucker, it was a very good reporter, Matthew Thierman,

Starting point is 01:33:22 good friend of mine. He's a very good reporter, and I think he was accurate the way he reported on Tucker. But I don't believe this was actually the CIA putting pressure on Bolsonaro. I believe that was the press making up that the CIA was putting pressure, and then the Democrats using the article

Starting point is 01:33:44 to put more pressure and pass something on the I believe they pass a motion or something and the Senate that being said we have a left wing government in the US right now Biden he was one of the first to recognize the results and congratulate Lula so what I think it's going on is that we need to go back to the beginning the premise Bolsonaro in the international community, the mainstream politicians, all left-wing, all globalists, Bolsonaro is like Trump and both are fascists, both are a threat to democracy. So they came up with this narrative and then they believe in it. And come on, Bolsonaro, you need to recognize the results. Are you going to accept it? Are you going to accept

Starting point is 01:34:31 or not? They are putting pressure because they know what's going on. And I understand what you're saying, though, but, but, you know, Patrick, when he introduced me, he was telling you that, you know, we, we actually do business with each other. You know, he actually found a company of financial services and I own a division within the company. And so here is one of the things, and I'm going to approach this from a business perspective. Something goes wrong.

Starting point is 01:34:58 This idea of blaming everybody else in the planet doesn't work here. You get to start by taking ownership, right? So I wanna go to a couple of points and I wanna know if you agree on some of the things that, and let me tell you what I'm coming from, I believe that there was truly a missed opportunity on not only from Brazil,

Starting point is 01:35:16 but also for United States with Trump, right? So it's a safe to say, can we all agree that he mishandled the whole situation with COVID? For multiple reasons, not just what he's in his position. Well, he lost political capital. I think he, he, who didn't, who didn't the world? Who did it in the world?

Starting point is 01:35:37 If you look, look in every country, look in every country, in Europe, governments changed in the US, the president with the economy doing fantastic, I'll do, I cannot say what I believe happened in the US elections and I'm not a conspiracy theorist, the reason I cannot say is because we're on YouTube so that tells a lot of what we're saying who didn't. But I'm not just talking about the social media opinion, he's perspective here is something to happen in Brazil premise before that now I hear lose did he lose that the first question I come from the financial service as well. I need to think all all I'll need to take

Starting point is 01:36:15 Responsibility accountability take ownership. Yeah take ownership But the first question is did he really lose? I don't know I don't know But again, let's let's move that to a side because there's definitely, I mean, I think we can agree that there's a lot of self-inflicted wounds here, right? They didn't help at all. I agree.

Starting point is 01:36:34 So I'm not just talking about his social media position, things that he said to the media. I'm actually talking about the largest welfare program that was absolutely set up in Brazil under his presidency, where they were actually given away, what was it, about 1100 dollars per month, which the average by the way, how much do they make? No, no dollars. No, it was actually, it was five times less than that.

Starting point is 01:36:58 It was actually 600 cash. Yeah, a little over a hundred dollars a month. Yeah. Okay, so, but it was huge for Brazil. For Brazil. Yeah, it was huge. I was big. Yeah, so here, so you agreed to do that, right?

Starting point is 01:37:12 But wait, in many ways Trump ended up making the same mistake, right? A lot of money goes out because everybody panic a little bit, right? The what is the right thing to do? I agree with you. Nobody was clear about, right? But now you set up a program. You're going into an election. That program ended right before the election.

Starting point is 01:37:30 No, he ring stated the program. It's still going on. It's ongoing. And he said, he promised that he would keep it next year. So it was not a huge issue. But at this moment, it's going on or it's not. It is, it's ongoing. It is going on.

Starting point is 01:37:44 And it's not, it was not a big issue in the campaign. moment is it going on or is not? It is, it is going on. It is going on. And it's not, it was not a big issue in the campaign. So public opinion, you know what I mean? And again, outside of, because here's a couple of things that people out on the street, right? Remember, coming out from the same background, and Honduras, this is also normal to hear somebody saying, hey, listen, Lula is, you know, he took some money, he was probably corrupt, but, but, you know, he cared for the people and he did things for the people.

Starting point is 01:38:10 And by the way, during the time that he was a president, which is correct, it's a correct assessment regardless of the reasons, right? The economy was doing well. The economy was growing, things are going well, it's doing well. Yeah. So, you know, Bolsonaro is his pro business, you know, I mean and Lula comes out saying I'm pro people right I'm pro life Pro choice by the way a lot of those issues right that today are becoming an issue in United States You know that I saved to say the Brazil is more liberal and certain things right you when you see the carnival and you see

Starting point is 01:38:43 the Brazil is more liberal and certain things, right? When you see the carnival and you see, we're much more conservative. I'm more conservative than America. You know, the whole thing is something percent of population in Brazil are against abortion. The transgender conversation was something. So in Brazil, is there a plan parenthood in Brazil? No.

Starting point is 01:39:03 Abortion in Brazil is illegal. Illegal. Illegal. Ill legal or illegal to create a crime and both sides agree on that uh... no no no no no left are trying to push but but it's a minority yeah it's a it's a twenty twenty five percent did you say what percentage ninety what well nine percent ninety percent according to both for now's internal campaign polls

Starting point is 01:39:23 which i trust more than the public polls. 90%. Yes. It's important to understand even the left wing candidates during the campaign. Lula did an opening. Yeah, they changed the narratives.

Starting point is 01:39:38 They say that they are against abortion, for example. So even Lula says he's... He started seeing it was for abortion in an international event. Yeah. Because Lula is not always in his sober, okay? So I don't, yeah, that's the truth. He's not always sober. So and I don't know if he was or not, but in an event he said, no, you know what?

Starting point is 01:39:59 It's a shame that in Brazil, poor women, they have to die seeking for an abortion and all that. This is the same narrative that to die seeking for an abortion and all that. This is the same narrative that Americans are used to. So he said that. He was repeating the international left narrative. And about not always being sober, it's not a joke. Like if you go Google Larry Rodder, the New York Times reported in Brazil during the first year of Lula's term in 2003. He was almost expelled from the country because he was celebrating the whole year. He wrote about Lula's

Starting point is 01:40:34 not being so proud of alcohol habits. But the backlash when he said that he was pro-abortion was so big that had been needed to back pedal and say oh no it's not what i meant i'm actually against abortion and he was challenged by that in the last presidential debate are you familiar with al-pais yeah okay so i want to read this paper to you this article there was several

Starting point is 01:41:00 yeah i know that's one thing you can correct them seven reasons why do you know who's al-pais in u. U.S. if you can tell us who L. P.I. says well, that who would they be in U.S. would it be New York time to post okay So seven reasons why Lula won Brazil's presidential election number one the fear of authoritarianism okay While many Brazilians haven't forgotten Lula for the corruption that plagued his two previous administration There was a pervasive fear across population for Bolsonaro, a former army captain was leading the country towards dictatorship, Bolsonaro repeatedly hinted that he wouldn't recognize an election defeat in 2020 to appointing members of Brazilian armed forces to key government post

Starting point is 01:41:35 during his administration. That's number one. Number two, the pandemic. Bolsonaro's mismanagement of the pandemic, which led to deaths of 700,000, okay, and it was slow to bring the vaccines and buying, et cetera, et cetera. Three, the power of alliances. Lula, as he did in his previous two electoral victories, expanded his base, welcoming parties from the left, center right into his coalition. The fact that his run and made was a Heraldou al-Qaimine,

Starting point is 01:42:01 a center right leader who was defeated by Lula during 2006 presidential election, drew the attention of many moderators who don was defeated by Lula during 2006 presidential election drew the attention of many moderators who don't typically support Lula's workers' party. For nostalgia, the Northeast region of Brazil made up of nine poor and racially diverse states. Gave Lula landslide victories, voters had fond memories of his tenure which dramatically reduced poverty, created social programs and improved healthcare and educational access. Okay, so that's that part. Five, the Jefferson effect, which we

Starting point is 01:42:27 talked about earlier. Bolsonaro's close relationship with Roberto Jefferson and ex-Congressman, who recently shot and drew grenade at police officers when they came to arrest him, left a bad taste in the electoral smouth. The ability to compromise. After being sworn in next year, Lula will have to govern with a Congress that is dominated by conservative parties. Bolsonaro's liberal party will control 99 seats.

Starting point is 01:42:54 A fifth of the chamber of deputies, many centrist presilients likely saw that after the strong showing for the hard right in the first round the country would require a consultory president to build a functioning legislative majority. And last but not least, the evangelical community. A third of Brazilian Brazil's population more than 65 million people identifies as evangelical Christians in the first round nearly 70% of these adherents votes voted for Bolsonaro's socially conservative program, but Lula held

Starting point is 01:43:25 this own with this group spending the last days of the runoff election, doing outreach amongst evangelicals. He had denounced the lies being spread by Bolsonaro, even wrote a letter to the Christians in which he promised to never restrict religious freedom. This is a very nice article about Lula. How much it is, is right? How much it is, is wrong? There are some, some true, 50%.

Starting point is 01:43:46 Like, like, Roberto Jefferson grenade issue. Hell, we don't know, we don't know the fact. But he do know that he said something about Jews and kids and children comments on Instagram posts. Who? Jefferson. Jefferson, no, no, no. It's kind of a crazy guy right now.

Starting point is 01:44:03 But it was not that. He's what he said. It's funny. Jefferson, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, pure electoral court gave themselves temporary special powers. Let me put it this way. Okay. And that was contested on the Supreme Court because Alishandr Demorayish, right now we're still during election period until the certification. Okay. Yes. We're still, so this, this, what happens is that they gave themselves special powers and Alishandr Morais could take down by himself at his own will any content and any person he wanted from social media. So that was contest on the Supreme Court, which Alishandr Morais also a part of, but anyways. of the Justice as a lady, Carmen Lucia, he said, well, what's going on? It's kind of like censorship, which is forbidden by our Constitution, and but I think this is just temporary.

Starting point is 01:45:17 And after elections, we need to look this over. So about the Jefferson heard that, and he compared her to a whore, okay, that said, I'm just gonna, I can't say that, it's, it's, and then he apologized to the horse. Yes, and said, I'm sorry to all the horse that I'm comparing you to Carmen Lucia. And that's funny as hell. But look, if you did that in the US, it would be on Hawaii. You probably, but you wouldn't go to jail

Starting point is 01:45:51 to say that about, I don't know, Soto Mayora, whatever. And so, but in a couple of days later, that's why the federal police went to his house to arrest him and actually arrest him in poor second time because it was also uh... being investigated and under arresting the weekend it was it was not and then he received the police with uh... with grenades and and shot the police because uh... i don't know but that had even even if if i don't believe that had an effect i believe it had

Starting point is 01:46:23 i don't i believe it had because how it It is perceived by the the whole So I think that there is a lot of people in Brazil that thinks Bolsonaro is too radical that that that is a fact and Those kind of things they they don't have maybe had any What we was was not a statistic. They even Maybe had any back, but he was not a statistic. They even relevant because I used to get Bolsonaro's internal polls every day. So, and that was a big problem during the campaign.

Starting point is 01:46:50 And they looked at it and they said, wow, we thought that this was gonna affect us. He didn't. Most people didn't even know who Hobotor Jaffa's home was. The evangelical community, yes. Lula tried to convince them he was not a bad guy, but I don't think he succeeded. 70% of them still voted for Bolsonaro.

Starting point is 01:47:08 What is true there? And I think it was very important. Compared to what? What was the first time in 2018? What was the... The evangelical? Yeah, did they go 90%? No, no, no.

Starting point is 01:47:20 It was about that. It was about that. 70% Evangelicals are getting more conservative in Brazil because evangelicals in Brazil are different from Americans of Angelicos. Here is very, very politicized. The churches are very connected and the vote to the Republican Party is again around 65, 70% as well. In Brazil didn't use to be like that. Actually, most of the evangelical pastors supported Lula. And so what were you said about the Catholic Church?

Starting point is 01:47:48 So that's a whole different subject. So what do you think you're happening with it? You spoke well of theology of the liberation. The liberation theology. And that's one aspect. The other is Brazil saw the decline of the number of Catholics, and a lot of Catholics in Brazil are so called Catholics, they say their Catholics, just like me, that supposedly a Catholic never took me to a mass, so how come he's a Catholic? You don't do the sacraments, you don't

Starting point is 01:48:21 believe in the Pope, so you're not a Catholic. So they're so called Catholic. It's just because you were baptized or something like this. It's like Jews, yeah, but it's not Jews, but it's in America. The most important thing there, I think was the support from very famous and respected liberal economists, like Arminio Fraga, who used to be the former central bank,

Starting point is 01:48:44 present Madeleus, who used to be the former central bank present. Madeleis who used to be a minister, a former central banker in Lula's administration. Those guys are seen as very moderate, very pro-markered and stuff like this. And they gave their support to Lula. So they helped build this fantasy for me. It's a illusion. Correct. That Lula is more moderate right now, more center and that helped. But you know what? They are complaining already. Yeah. We use say it during the support. But do you support weeks? Guys, but will you say that today that today today the Catholic Church in Brazil is a socialist Part of it

Starting point is 01:49:31 Most most of the day be like like you for if you have to look at the group right now and go to a percentage Who voted for Lula today? Oh, no, I know I know the number of who voted for Lula, okay, so it actually Lula won among Catholics I think believe he had 60% of Catholic votes according against two Bolsonaro's campaigns and turnipos. 60% were... I agree with that number. But there are Catholics like Nancy Pelosi, like Catholics, pro-abortion and stuff like this. No, I get it. That's a big number. The government is a big number. You know what I mean? The Catholic church is not in a good,

Starting point is 01:50:03 in a good shape in Brazil. So we have, you have two, three things. You have the decline of the number of Catholics. You have the decline of the quality of Catholics, according to Catholic theology, which I'm very fond of. And you also have the theology, the liberation theology, which is very permanent in Latin America. So you have all three of that making like he said

Starting point is 01:50:28 there's a part of Catholics in Brazil, there's a portion. It's a small percentage of Catholics in Brazil, but still, and you have a lot of a lot of them that are not even, they never went to church. They don't care. So I current, I current Pope, who do you think he would have voted for? Lula, Lula, Lula, but if I may let me go back to Arminio Fraga and those names, but

Starting point is 01:50:50 they're very important names internationally. Arminio Fraga used to work with George Soros and his very wealthy and all that. So those supports were very important for Lula and they are are ready, as Paulo said, they are already withdrawing days after. Why? Because what I think happened is that those guys hated Bolsonaro and they wanted to grab power. So maybe maybe, at least, or I mean, you frag a thought,

Starting point is 01:51:22 they would be minister of finance, and stuff like this, but we have already more than 300 names in the transition team Okay 300 names already and those are bad names like a lot of them are connected to the Last government of Lula the corruption side of it. A lot of names in the economics are very radical, too radical, too left wing. They are considering Fernando Adagi, who lost the São Paulo government election. They are considering Fernando Adagi

Starting point is 01:51:59 as the most likely next minister. This guy sucks at this. He doesn't understand anything about economics. next minister, this guy sucks at this, he doesn't understand anything about economics. So those important names that gave their support to Lula, they regret it already. But why they did it? I know why they did it.

Starting point is 01:52:19 Power, inner power. You know what's the biggest political split in the world right now? It's not left and right. It's people that trust and read mainstream media and people who doesn't. That's it. It's not more left and right. If someone is captured by mainstream media, they're gone.

Starting point is 01:52:38 But once they stop believing in it, it's like taking the red pill. And that's the division in Brazil, these guys, they all read, oh, global, they all read the New York Times. They all go to New York to the beautiful people, beautiful people's party. So you're either, and there's a lot of good people. There's against Bolsonaro. Why?

Starting point is 01:53:02 Because they believe in the media. So when you ask me, what was the reason? Yes, we need to take ownership. But there's nothing you can do when your country has 48% of the people believing in mainstream media, which is a leftist propaganda machine. There's nothing Bolsonaro could have done, nothing. He could have done to better,

Starting point is 01:53:23 and he made a lot of mistakes, but it didn't matter because let's take Donald Trump. Okay he had the best press secretary, best press secretary I've ever seen in my life, Kaley MacKoney, she's unbelievable. I've never seen someone, anyone, so well, worse on her job. Reporters used to ask her questions, he was like, okay he was like on her job, reporters used to ask her questions, she was like, okay, he opened her binder,

Starting point is 01:53:48 it's like, how is she doing that? And she would have the answers compared to this lady that we have right now, which is disgrace. She can barely talk. And Biden has all the support of the mainstream media. So it doesn't matter if you have competent people around you, the media hates most of that. Let me ask you, the media the matter. Let me ask you.

Starting point is 01:54:05 The media hates Trump. Let me ask this question here. And we're getting to the end of the podcast. So what's going to happen next? Meaning, you know, okay, he hasn't conceded, okay? And he's not made the phone call. But at the same time, he's not going to put it. I don't think he's, I don't think he's, I don't think he's, it doesn't happen.

Starting point is 01:54:24 Yeah. But at the same time, you know, what can they do to him? You know how you got up, he says, there's only three, one of three things that's gonna happen to me. They're gonna have to kill me, they're gonna have to arrest me or they're gonna have to, we're gonna, you know, he got up and gives a message.

Starting point is 01:54:39 Okay, so what are they gonna do to him next? Is he gonna be going away anytime soon? Is he still gonna stay loud? Are they gonna do to them next? Is he gonna be going away anytime soon? Is he still gonna stay loud? Are they gonna try to silence him because you know when even after the election if they follow if you if if if this is the same Playbook being played okay on the left end or right and your symbol Sonara is Trump of Brazil. You know what comes next is they got a de platform him from everywhere which is Twitter Which is Facebook which is YouTube, which is all of that, right?

Starting point is 01:55:07 Is that how they're gonna silence him? And is he gonna stay in Brazil? Is he gonna leave? Is he gonna get a, what are they gonna do to him? Knowing the history of Brazil, what are things gonna happen next to him? So, Rodrigo mentioned that yesterday, Bolsonaro's party officially challenged election.

Starting point is 01:55:24 I read that, yeah. Okay officially challenged election. I read that. Yeah. The claims are hard to deny. Okay. The claims are very hard to deny. The whole system is flooded. Okay. And I was part of the people that said after the first round of the elections, I said, no, no, I don't

Starting point is 01:55:46 see any evidence of it. You know what are the chances of things flipping when Supreme Court owns 9 out of 11 in the election? Let me, yes, that's important. So he challenged. Not to spoil our alert. Supreme Court's not going to say anything. But the law in Brazil says that Attorney General has to ask for new election. Okay.

Starting point is 01:56:05 And the court might deny it again. Or you're talking about a guy in the Constitution, 1988, Communist Constitution that says, if you get impeached, you can't run again for eight years. But then the judge says, hey, let's rip it apart. It's okay, not this time and she can run again. So if they have a reputation of doing that

Starting point is 01:56:20 and they own nine out of 11, I mean, there's an expectation. romp had six three supreme court and nothing happened you know you so that that you know what which is the the biggest difference from brazil and united states i think is the military yes his correct because the institutions are against the right now that was going to be my question they're gonna

Starting point is 01:56:44 ignore uh... the the the their exhausting all the institutional institutions are against and that was going to be my question though. And they are going to ignore the so they're exhausting all the institutional waters their position today. And by the way will you consider the institution still a center institution? Independent enough the military? They're legalists. They follow the law.

Starting point is 01:57:00 They are strict and they are patriotic. They don't accept What happened in Brazil and and Lula being the commander in chief Like they they are we have some generals tweeting or two two a week ago the joint chiefs issued a Joint statement which is, I've never seen it happening. And it's strong.

Starting point is 01:57:28 Saying that they're listening to the streets and that they're hoping that our institutions listen to the streets and fix what's going on. But they use a very weird language on the text saying, we have the role of the protectors of democracy and institutions. And throughout history, we exerted the role as moderators of countries' conflicts. And then they put pressure on the Congress. Like you need to do something because we are watching what's going on. So nobody knows what's what's going to happen. Like the people on the streets right now, they believe they still believe Lula won't be able To to be the next president. They still believe that there's a large chunk of them. I have a very I mean listen

Starting point is 01:58:19 It's well, we're not up to miss it as well. Yeah, I have a and the only reason the only reason I have a very hard time up to miss it as well. Yeah, I have, the only reason, the only reason I have a very hard time, Alexander, this guy, first of all, is 54 years old. That's not good news for you. He's not 78, he's 54, he was born in 68. That's a young man right there. He ain't going away for long term,

Starting point is 01:58:35 and he seems like he works out, and he's pretty energized, and he drinks coffee. So this guy's gonna be fired up for a long time. This is not good news for you. And last, somebody, that's what's going on. What's going on? And jail, like he should be arrested.

Starting point is 01:58:49 We have a judge that just retired. Yeah. He just retired and he gave a very strong, very powerful speech to the guys, to the people on the streets. The Pills Courtship. Yeah. He retired.

Starting point is 01:59:03 Yeah. And he just retired. No, no, I know, but that's retired. No, no, I know, but that's not even right. He understands the law. He's a knowledge of in the law. And he was like very quietly saying that Alexandre de Morais needs to be arrested.

Starting point is 01:59:16 Who has the power to do that? The president could, anyone could ask. This is the next time, the next time, and by the way, I'm not trying to take hope away or anything no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, and 10-1 atop 100 most inflation men in the world. That's Lula we're talking about. He knows how to market himself. He knows how to sell himself. And he knows how to play the game. He's been around for a very, very long time playing this game. He's a pro amongst pros to pin who against who.

Starting point is 01:59:55 He knows how to talk to the evangelical and kind of persuade the whole percentage. He has to strategize. He is the credit goes to him as a strategist. I don't agree with his policies. I don't agree with the world community He has and then and then the other part would shine. He's not as smart as you think you just have She just has a lot of strategy is not necessarily smart to me strategy is wise To me smart is intellectual educated degrees

Starting point is 02:00:21 You you do not want to go against a wise competitor let me tell you you would much rather go against a smart competitor than a wise competitor do you believe Joe Biden's wise? do I believe Joe Biden is what? Why? Why? Why? Why? There's one wife. Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? I wish them. Oh, he says he's got his wife. He mentioned wisdom. Uh, uh, no, but I do believe Obama is wise because to me Lula is Obama and Obama's running America not a lot of people think of Biden's running America People people think who was just a symbol no or the stab but no hear me out though When midterms were taking place who went campaigning Obama or Biden

Starting point is 02:01:00 Biting was in campaigning anywhere because Biden is Obama is Lula and No Obama didn't get up there talking about how Biden's one the greatest presidents and leaders of all time Biden Obama got up there and talked about what he said democracy is at a threat. That was the line everybody used Same mercy threat and the same thing you love so Lula is Obama Obama is Lula and they're both wise. I don't I don't agree with that. Well then you know, the bad could I Obama Obama is very very wise and smart. Yes. Yes. He's a double. He's got both right. Lula is not but can we approach it for a different perspective though? It's a mess because because Lula is not that smart. The level of street smart. will you tell him you lula doesn't have street smart go to jail for five hundred eighty days going out with criminals

Starting point is 02:01:50 oh no he didn't have to hang out with criminals he was in a VIP coming up from the beginning at the beginning where he was and what he was doing with the community organized well that's that's he went to jail for a month back then I mean he I kind of agree with you more on this issue because he's a survival and during the military power in Brazil He used to do both sides. He's a survivor So yes, he's wise. He knows how to deal with but but the establishment is stronger than him So if he thinks he's gonna rule like Venezuela,

Starting point is 02:02:27 he's gonna be, I don't think that's gonna be gone. I don't think that's, I don't see Brazil going at the levels of Venezuela. Because of the establishment. I don't see that happen. Again, listen, it's not my country, I'm just giving my, you know, from the outside scene, what's going on in America? And I see Brazil's fallen, US's not my country, I'm just giving my, you know, from the outside scene, what's going on in America?

Starting point is 02:02:45 And I see Brazil's fallen, U.S. footsteps. The American situation was more optimistic for something happened with the elections because they had six to three Supreme Court. So Trump is sitting there saying, I own Supreme Court, I'm gonna fight it, they're gonna back me up because I gave these guys the job

Starting point is 02:03:00 and it's gonna be this, no, they didn't wanna do it. And you're talking about Brazil nine out of... Institution... Institution here is a way stronger. In Brazil, the only hope... They're trying to follow all the institutional jobs, every single one of them. Yeah, but here's what does...

Starting point is 02:03:16 And they don't work. That's the only chance. If they don't work, for some reason, there's an expectation of the military intervening under Bolsonaro's West, but I don't believe that will happen. I think that's unlikely, but that's not if it does potential civil war if something like that. No, there's no civil war. No, no, if the military intervene. No, there's no civil war because there's no to have a Civil War. You need to have another side with guns. The side is the the criminal the criminal is the criminal there easily control the dealers and the easily controlled by the military that's the do no risk of

Starting point is 02:03:50 civil war the military stepped in steps steps and uh... what we'll have is a pressure of international community is this video correct you pull up that you know what the risk of civil war is that a accurate video yeah i believe that September seven that's September seven yes. That's September 7th. Yes, the Independence Day in Brazil. You know what is the Civil War risk in my opinion? Is if the militaries don't do anything.

Starting point is 02:04:13 Oh yeah, now we have a risk. Yeah, but you under, yeah, you guys listen, you and they, they are not happy at all. You are underestimating that number one role in the number one thing that a politician is trying to accomplish is to get on power, to get elected. That's the number one thing, right? So so so so it's very is not so much even a question or wisdom or intelligence is that there is the country, by the way Latin America, even our country is already flowing in certain direction. That's an easy thing to sell. Here's my problem though My problem is that even as we are having this conversation right now

Starting point is 02:04:50 We still not making a good argument as to why both sonar the fact of the matter is that he lost some Catholics He lost blacks and part of those right? I Don't know but he used to blame of course he used to blame part of it that's this there's a lot of it is even among july could say listen i know what my church is saying i know that but it was too much of a of a direct offense listen whether people are blowing it out of proportion or they know how to use the argument better what i've been telling pat for a long time is here in united states right now we we have democrats destroying the middle class but they are making the argument that they

Starting point is 02:05:28 are the ones rescuing the middle class you know why because republicans don't know how to make the argument it's exactly what just happened in brazil you have a group of people that maybe yes they had a better platform that you know how to explain it not only they don't know how to sell it you know you still at this very moment we're just about every mistake that was made here He is being made right now and so it's not uneasy I agree partially with you, but the fact is one the difference one the mainstream media the second is we don't know if He actually won the election

Starting point is 02:05:59 That's my point. I think we don't know the Our system is completely flawed and there's a mainstream meeting. And there's no way to verify it though. There's no way to verify it. And my point being yes, I'm usually a critic of both on auto for the same reasons you are, but I can't I wouldn't be fair to blame him completely because of what I'm I said we need to take some lessons here I think I think the scientist for example wrong the scientist is a name that learned from Trump Trump in a lot of ways but he learned also with the mistakes like he's gonna be

Starting point is 02:06:40 Different in terms of how he deals with the public I think in Brazil if Lula is the next president, the military forces don't do anything and all that, if that happens, I think we're gonna need a new, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a Answering Patrick is gonna be still the huge the largest force in the opposition is going to jail You you're going to jail. It's going to jail. You mentioned you mentioned Peterson. You know, Peter So no, it's going to jail. It's not gonna run again. They're established members. There's no If they don't get out of the country Not only Bolsonaro is going to jail all his supporters are going to jail

Starting point is 02:07:21 That's a very dumb scenario including us I'm gonna be here. Oh, but they're gonna try to arrest us. Alan is here as well. Of course they will. They're gonna come after every single one of us. Yeah, but she's here. And that's one of the reasons why the military intervene

Starting point is 02:07:37 is a possibility because they know that. They know that. They know they know they're not. They saw what happened and believe you. They know they are not. The president of Bolivia is in jail. they know they are not president of believe is a Yeah, yeah, they're not Yeah, but I'm going back to what I you know you mentioned Peterson before what Peterson absolutely stated about Trump

Starting point is 02:07:53 Was that his brand was winning his brand was Manly his brand was I'm abrasive. I'm a manly. I'm a man's man, right? So that's Bolsonaro so for Trump to come out and say somebody stole the election from me that goes against his own brand you know I mean and so at this point he's just I have to walk away from those if he doesn't do that he will hurt his own brand even more and that at this point it's got to be the army literally intervening no also not has a strong leadership

Starting point is 02:08:28 off the right in brazil and he has to be saying i don't know that there is a right in brazil what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what Guys we grew up in that environment. I was I agree that was 14 years old. I was Alan's changing Marvin Marvin. No, those people on the Pristino maybe they don't know they are right wing or stuff like this, but they they share the same values And I think this is larger than Bolsonaro that to understand Bolsonaro and Trump I think one of the best books I read was Victor Dave's handsome from California called the Case for Trump. And the case for Trump brings the idea of the tragic old hero.

Starting point is 02:09:11 He's the kind of hero that is there only because he is not in the bad side, only because of a kind of accident, something like this. He's not a perfect hero, he's not a perfect guy. He's the right guy, the guy that you you need on that time but then you get rid of him because he's too loud or too uh... messy

Starting point is 02:09:34 and i think what's going on in the united states right now is this they are looking for a rondis and says someone that it brings the the trump uh... stamina against the system, but in a more wise way. In Brazil, we're gonna need that. We have some names now.

Starting point is 02:09:50 We have like the Minas Gerais, Gornador and Hanna. I think there's another election in Brazil. I think there's another. Too pessimistic. I mean, these told the election it looks like they have been stealing the election for many years.

Starting point is 02:10:02 I don't like what doesn't matter. It's the same thing around. I think you just found another similarity, right? The what got him elected is basically what got him. Right. I'm not going to argue with you against fraud elections being listened, like I said. How far Honduras, right?

Starting point is 02:10:20 So it would be naive, right? Knowing what we know about how this political games are played in our countries. By the way, even here at this point, right? I think it's extremely naive for people now to believe this. Yeah, the rate. Do you think Republicans are ever going to win their regime again? Do you think Republicans are ever going to win Pennsylvania again? Never. So it doesn't matter the new leaderships that can't become. Yeah, but at some point you can break the system. That's what got Trump elected.

Starting point is 02:10:50 At some point that's what got Bush elected. That's what got Trump elected. At some point you can, yeah, well, but look, is he right now, is he gonna make it worse? Or actually, I said, that's what I'm telling you. Those same things that got him elected are essentially the things that are getting him, not only fire, in danger, potentially having the need to be in there.

Starting point is 02:11:12 I'll start here. I'm gonna go for it. I'm gonna great. Go for it. It's kind of heavy metal against jazz. Like we can't stand heavy metal for too long. Like Bolsonaro and Trump are too heavy metal. We kind of needed them to fight the system or to expose the system, but then we need to move on and it's important to

Starting point is 02:11:35 adapt. Interesting. Brazil is Brazil. You think blue is not Switzerland. Lula's jazz? Lula's more hip-hop. Lula's hip-hop. It's hip-hop. Yeah, okay. Anyways, hey, I enjoy the dialogue. It looks like the audience, this is what we like to be a little bit of a discourse debate, banter, and you get to make a decision what you think is going on. My concern here is purely stemmed from if China can have a lot of influence over Brazil. That's a little too close to where we live. And I think there's one country everybody has to keep their eyes on. And that's China because they got a big vision on what they want to do.

Starting point is 02:12:11 And they look at everybody as beneath them. They see themselves as superior to everybody. And this isn't about Brazil election. This isn't about US. This is about you having the freedom to build a life that you want to build. And some countries don't want you to have that freedom to do and build a life that you want to build. In some countries, don't want you to have that freedom to do and build a life that you want to build. Hence, that being China.

Starting point is 02:12:28 Having said that, fellas, a gentleman, thanks for coming out. Marvin, awesome stuff. Really enjoyed it with everyone. We're gonna put the link below to both of you. You want to drive to the YouTube channel or Twitter. What would you like the audience to put? Twitter.

Starting point is 02:12:41 Put the link for both of them on Twitter Twitter on how to get a hold of them. And you guys are very active there as well. But with that being said, to everybody, we're not going to do another podcast this weekend, which means happy Thanksgiving to you. Enjoy the time with your family. We'll do the end of the day. Absolutely. Thank you, everybody. Bye-bye. Bye. Yn yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw you

PBD Podcast - Brazilian Elections w/ @Canal Paulo Figueiredo & @Rodrigo Constantino | PBD Podcast | Ep. 208

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