PBD Podcast - “Couldn’t Keep His Mouth Shut” - Michael Wolff EXPOSES Epstein's Gossip Web, Trump Intel & Enemies | PBD Podcast | Ep. 632

Episode Date: August 19, 2025

Patrick Bet-David sits down with Trump biographer Michael Wolff for a revealing conversation as Wolff exposes Jeffrey Epstein’s gossip network, Trump’s private intel and inner circle, and the long list of powerful enemies Trump has made along the way.------🎧 MICHAEL'S PODCAST "INSIDE TRUMP'S HEAD": https://bit.ly/45C868S📕 MICHAEL'S BOOK "ALL OR NOTHING: HOW TRUMP RECAPTURED AMERICA": https://amzn.to/4mjMPYx

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They were the most important relationship, non-family relationship in each other's lives. That's a new fact. What was he like when he was speaking to during those hundreds of hundreds of hours, specifically the relationship with Trump? Well, as I say, he was enormously detailed about his relationship. Epstein believed that it was Trump who first informed the police about what was going on at Epstein's house. So, so far we have Clinton, we have Trump. Any other big names that he would speak to you? Well, yes, yeah.

Bill Gates, yes. Epstein-related conversations to me about Gates complaining to Epstein about his marriage and his wife. I did not like that he'd had meetings with every Epstein. Why would Ehud, Barak, visit his place 36 times? Ehud is an incredible gas bag. You know, I think that he will go, oh, my God. What were the last text exchanges with him? And exactly how much longer after his last textude did he die?

It came through his lawyers. So the lawyer told you that could be a cryptic message. I mean, it is a cryptic message. I mean, it is a cryptic message. Did you ever think you would make it? I feel I'm supposed to take sweetly. I know this life meant for me. Adam, what's your point?

The future looks bright. My handshake is better than anything I ever signs, right here. You are a one of one? My son's right there. I think I've ever said this before. Today we have a special guest with us, Michael Wolfe, New York time bestselling author, Fire and Fury. It was one of the most talked about books in the last election that we had, sold millions on top of millions of copies of books, journalist, magazines, paper, list is long. Michael, it's great to have you on a podcast.

Thanks for having me. Yes. So, Michael, this is what I'd like to focus on today's conversation to be. It's one, obviously, Epstein-driven, because you have the 100 hours with Epstein that we've all read about and heard about. To his business model, how he made his money, Epstein, we keep hearing about different types of ways he made money. Is there a blackmail list? And then aside from that, the way he passed away, I think he called him. his German girlfriend before he died, but he also, you're the last person. He texted

before he died. So you've had a lot of time with him. You've spent three hours with Trump, so you've had one-on-one with both of them. And there's a lot of conversations about a possible Mossad link. Is there anything there? Is there not anything there? So those are some of the items I'd want to talk about here today. Great. Let's do it. So let's get right into it. So if you don't mind, just start off maybe sharing with the audience, your relationship over the years and how many hours you spend with Epstein, as well as your relationship with President Trump? Sure. So in 2014, I had known Epstein somewhat before this. He had tried, he was a member of a group of wealthy men who in 2004, 2005 tried to buy New York Magazine, where I worked and was

the lead writer. So I got to know him, you know, fairly. well during this period. He did not, his group did not end up buying New York Magazine. Not long after that, his legal problems began, and then he went to jail. So I didn't really have any much, I didn't have any involvement with him until he got out of jail, called me, we got together and then in 2014 he asked me to write about him a book magazine article you know clearly he was interested in being rehabilitated he had gone to jail you know he's for two counts of prostitution one one of those those counts being under an underage girl um and had was a registered sex offender so he wanted he wanted to return to his his his life and in large measure he had um you know still lived in his enormous house in in manhattan um many people of influence and note were showing up um but he wanted to continue continue this this rehabilitation and he figured if

someone wrote about him that would help. And I said, well, actually, I'm probably not the person. And I'm probably not interested in that. And he said, that's fine. I certainly didn't have to make a decision. And he said, well, why don't, if you're interested, why don't you just come whenever you'd like talk to me, see if my story is interesting to you, see if you feel that I'm straightforward. And also, there's many interesting people who come to my house and if you're interested I will invite you on occasion anyway nothing nothing not to be not to be not interested in here and I said you know yeah sure no commitments necessary and we did begin to talk and he did begin to invite me to some interesting gatherings at his house.

And I was, you know, I was, I was, you know, his story was certainly, you could not help but be somewhat interested by this, this story. But then, and this rolls into your next question, in 2015, Donald Trump started a run for president, I started to cover his campaign, and the, that would ultimately be he would all obviously win. And I started to cover his years in the White House. And Epstein at that point, and our relationship had been relatively infrequent, but at that point, he became a very interesting window for me into who Donald Trump really was

because Epstein and Trump had been the best of friends. I mean, I don't mean just casual friends, acquaintance, someone he knew. I mean the best of friends. Possibly, I think they were the most important relationship, non-family relationship in each other's lives. And his insights about Donald Trump, his knowledge about Donald Trump, his appreciation of all of the, you know, both both gifts and otherwise about Donald Trump was immense. So he became very, very helpful to me. And we continued our relationship right up until he was arrested,

and then a month later after his arrest, he died. And during this long period of time from 2014 to 2019, Many of our conversations, and obviously with his knowledge, were recorded. And those are recordings that I now have. Michael, I appreciate that. Very helpful to know the backstory of it. So roughly, let's just say 100 hours. Of the 100 hours that you have, what were some things that he said?

Did he sound like he was upset at the president? Did he sound like he was, he missed a relationship? Did he sound like he was over-exaggerating, under-exaggering? Did you feel hate? Did you feel animosity? Did you feel betrayal? What was he like when he was speaking to during those hundreds of hours? Specifically, as I say, he was enormously detailed about his relationship.

He was, I mean, obviously Donald Trump had, had, was about to become, or was in the process of becoming the president and then became the president. So this became obviously a substantial fact in Jeffrey Epstein's life. His best friend had become the president. Now, this was a friendship that stopped over a dispute, a real estate dispute in 2004. And they became bitter enemies. And briefly, and I recount this in one of my books, Jeffrey Epstein believed himself to be the top bidder for a piece of real estate in Palm Beach in 2004. He had bid $36 million for this Palm Beach house. He took his friend Donald Trump over to advise him on,

on the logistics of moving the swimming pool. His friend Trump then immediately went around his back and bid $40 million for the house and got the house. Epstein, on his part, believed and had Epstein had pretty intimate knowledge of Trump's financial basis. I mean, they were involved with deals together. Epstein was among Trump's business advisors, in essence. And Epstein believed that Trump did not have $40 million.

Therefore, he concluded that Trump was fronting for someone. And that this was essentially a money laundering, part of a money laundering scheme. And in fact, the House was sold, Trump sold the House, within two years for $95 million, which would be a kind of a red flag that something was going on here. Trump began to, Trump was, Epstein was furious with Trump over this real estate betrayal. And I often think that men of a certain level of wealth, the thing that angers them most is a real the state betrayal. But he started to threaten Trump with lawsuits and with going to the press with this allegation that this is Epstein. Epstein threatened to sue Trump? Yes. Okay. And I've been to this

house. It looks nothing like it does in this picture because they tore it down. They rebuild it back up. I looked at this house four years ago with a realtor in Palm Beach. It was showing me a bunch of homes. It's an immaculent house. I mean, the house looks, it doesn't look like a house. It looks like a museum. It's a beautiful property. So he's threatened to sue him, even though they're friends, he's threatened to sue him over this deal. Yes. Okay. Yes. As I say, rich men break down over real estate disputes. At any rate, at that point, Epstein's legal problems began. The police began to investigate him over allegations that there were underage women coming to his house. Epstein believed that it was Trump who first informed the police about what was going on

at Epstein's house. And from that point on, they were nothing but bitter enemies. And this is what he's telling you. This is one of the instances of what he's telling you. that the following that that that is the version of this related by epstein okay if it's a hundred hours you know michael what else did he say did he say anything about clinton's did he say anything about um other politicians or business man you know yeah he said he said a lot i mean the hundred hours is is is is pretty much a uh in in some sense

his autobiography. He's talking through the details of his life. Trump does not occupy most of these hours. Trump, I would say, is 15%, maybe maybe a little more. I mean, he keeps coming back to Trump and obviously that's one of my interests here. So I'm pressing him on the on the Trump relationship. But he's also speaking about broadly other things. Yes, he speaks about Clinton somewhat. Clinton turned his back on Epstein after Epstein's legal problems began. So he was, you know, I think he felt that at best Clinton was a fair weather friend. And that was largely, largely the regard he had for Clinton at this point.

And there was a set of other people like that. You know, many people turned on Epstein after this. What other names would you say? So far we have Clinton, we have Trump. Any other big names that he would speak to you? Well, yes, yeah, Galane Maxwell. So Galane Maxwell, who had been very close to him, obviously, after 2004, after the police stepped into this, 2004, 2005,

she very much distanced herself from Epstein. And Epstein was hurt by this, I think. She distanced herself from Epstein. Yes, yeah. They had no, I mean, this is in this story, and obviously, Glein is so closely linked to Epstein at this point and the one person in this whole scandal to go to jail, but the truth is that by 2004, 2005, she was pretty much out of his life. Wow. And yeah, I mean, a little, you know, again, it's very hard to separate. I mean, the whole facts of this of this Epstein story are clouded, not least of all, by the fact that most of the information that we get about this. story is from people who don't know anything, who are speculating or who are adopting the

information they have heard from somebody else who doesn't know anything. And the people who do know things have been so paranoid about being connected to Jeffrey Epstein that they haven't spoken. So therefore everything or many of the things that we know about this story are soft. Did he say anything about Gislane that maybe the public doesn't know about that it stuck out? Any story that he said

where you're like, wow, I never knew that. I think the public needs to know this story about the two of them. Well, I don't... I mean, I think what what's not recognized is that A, that Galane was out of his life

at a relatively long ago moment that while they had had a close relationship, a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship for a short period, after that she increasingly became not his partner in crime, but his, you know, his functionary, his employee. She was, you know, she was getting paid and she was carrying out whatever, whatever, whatever, duties he told her to carry out or whatever duties she, she inferred that she had to carry out. So, so I think, again, that's another misperception of this. That's interesting.

If you're saying they didn't, no longer did things together. I think she got charged, found guilty in 2021, December 2021, which is less than four years ago. I think she's facing 20 years right now. It was sex trafficking of a minor, conspiracy to incite, entice minors to travel, to engage illegal sex acts, conspiracy to transport minors would intend to engage in illegal sexual act. Right, but all of this, all of this, every specific here is, relates to what happened prior to 2004 or five.

Got it. So this goes back to then. Michael, when you were interviewing and recording Epstein, was it mostly in his apartment, is that where it was at, his penhouse in Manhattan? Well, it's not a penhouse. It's a, it's a, it's a mansion. 21,000 square feet. I think that's the one that Lex Wexner gave him.

It's a beautiful property from what I do. And it's, that's even another soft, soft thing that has said, you know, you hear it's 21,000 square feet. Epstein described it as 55,000 square feet. And it clearly is, I mean, I've, you know, a good size townhouse in New York is. about, you know, 15,000 to 20,000 square feet. This is triple the size of a good size of a townhouse. I mean, it is, it's on a block in Manhattan on 71st Street between 5th Avenue and Madison Avenue,

which is, it's a block of these significant mansions. But his dwarfs them all. So you see, I mean, there are these big mansions which you would say, oh, my God, you know, that must be a, you know, who could possibly live in that. Those are amazing. And then next to his, you say, this is truly mind-blower. Yeah, I mean, it's documented as the largest private residence in Manhattan, whether you call it a penthouse or whatever. So did you ever ask him why Lex Wexner gave that to him as a gift? Yes, and I, he would deny that.

In other words, he said, yes, this was part of a financial transaction he had with Wexner. The details of which I don't exactly know, but certainly he billed this as a, that he had bought the house from Wexner. They did not make you kind of sit there and say, I mean, I'm sure you've got nice gifts in your life. I've had a couple nice gifts, you know, in my life, a couple of them for my friends and my wife. No one's been nice enough to give me the largest private residence in New York. I once had a conversation with Wexner about this is the only time I met Wexner. And he had said, and I said, you know, I mean, how did you meet Epstein or something? But I don't remember my question, but I remember his answer.

He looked surprised and said, and said, Jeffrey made me half a billion dollars. Jeffling made me half a billion dollars. Did he tell you how? Well, I assume from giving him financial advice, but I don't know. And possibly investment advice. I mean, a lot of people make a lot of people half a billion dollars, but they don't give the biggest private residents in New York. Well, as I say, as I say, from Epstein's point of view, this was not a gift.

It was a transaction. All right. The nature of that transaction, I don't know. It's a little bit suspicious on what happened here. When you walked into this private residence, you know how they say that painting of President Bush and Clinton? Did you ever see those two paintings in the property?

I don't know, the President Bush. I saw that one. It was in a little, it was basically in a closet off the main entrance. Did you ever ask him why he has that? That's a very weird painting for you to have of a president. in a dress in a painting in a in a painting that's kind of weird yeah i think it was a joke painting you know at at one point i i never saw that painting so i i don't i don't know where the bush painting is from um i have seen the clinton painting and um you know it was a a

a joke the nature of the joke i'm not exactly sure um but it's a it's a it's a point about Epstein that that that he treated almost everything like a joke in fact art itself was treated like a joke the the piece of art above his mantle above the fireplace on the ground floor was something he had bought on the street just a street painting for a hundred dollars or something and then he had spent thousands and thousands of dollars on framing it so it looked like a partly because of this frame it looked like a significant piece of art which it was not and it amused him that many of the wealthy men he knew spent enormous amounts of money on on art which he considered a kind of vanity or even a pretension on possibly a fraud.

Yeah, so very, very interesting when you think about it. So you saw the painting, Bill Clinton's, President Bill Clinton's, if you're going to play a joke and you're going to have all these guests that come in. I don't know if the former, you would book, you know, Barack that these guys are coming over 36 times. If I'm living in America, I don't know if I'm going to have a painting of the president like that in my house to make fun of the president. It undermines the leader of my country, or there's some people that speculate that this was one way of him saying, hey, I have you, Bill. You better. And there's a lot of different speculations. Well, I don't know. I mean, he certainly didn't have him. And, you know,

the Clinton's bill particularly walked out of his life after the investigation started. So the painting may have been a kind of, there may have been some bitterness. in this painting and he kept this this this painting and I don't really know where the painting came from but he was certainly not you know again I you know I think it hurt him that that that Clinton turned on him like that and that would even that would be a validation of to say now that you turned on me and distance distance yourself from me after all the fun you had with me traveling without secret service just so you know you better not screw me because I know you know what I know about you in a very dark way that would make sense to say everyone that

comes here better not come after me because I know what you know what I know about you well yeah I mean it's it's possible except that obviously people did come after him and you know there was no you know I I think at various points and there were people who wanted him to spill or share information about Clinton. And I don't think that, that, I mean, to my knowledge, that never happened. And, you know, I mean, I think that was, that was always a possibility in a sense that Epstein believed in the investigation, the initial investigation of him in Florida. So the investigation of him in Florida, as I understand, began as a state investigation, actually, a local investigation by the police in Palm Beach. And then it was taken over

by the feds, which would have been unusual. And Epstein believed that that was an effort by people in the Bush administration then to get information about Bill Clinton. Is this the Palm Beach story with the parents of the 14-year-old girl that said that she was molested by him? This is the 2006 story?

Yes, this is the first investigation, investigation which began in 2004 and then sent him to jail in, I don't know. In your eyes, Michael, having spent as much time as you did with him, do you think Epstein is a bad guy? well he's clearly a bad guy i mean he clearly did things that i would not do and you would not

do and we would hope that the people we know would not would not do um and um so so yeah i mean he's the sex offender he went to jail um but is he in addition to that an intelligent guy a knowledgeable guy a guy who had insights to offer, I would say, in my experience, yes. Does one cancel out the other? No, but they exist together. Totally makes sense. I've met a lot of guys that are extremely knowledgeable and fun, even fun, to talk to, but you know they've done some.

Now, you interviewed Sammy de Voguevogravano. He's got to be one of the best storytellers I've met in my life. Well, yes. I mean, I have a kind of specialty in bad guys. I know you do. That's why you. Yeah. You know, and, you know, I know a lot of bad guys. Well, it's your world for me. They're not gangsters. They're guys who are, I would consider, as you probably know,

Donald Trump to be a bad guy. Okay, so you think Donald Trump is a bad guy and you think Epstein is also a bad guy. Yeah. And I think, and it's always. I think Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein are very much similar people. That's why Epstein, knowing Epstein, Epstein supplies a window into who Donald Trump is because they were so close, but also so close in their interests. Nowadays, more than ever, the brand you wear reflects and represent who you are. So for us, if you wear a future looks bright hat or a value taming gear,

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with PPD podcast, go to VTmerch.com. And by the way, if you order right now, there's going to be a special VT gift insight just for you. So again, go to VTmerch.com. place your order, tell the world that you believe the future looks bright. So, okay, so let's let's go there. With the 100 hours that you have, are there, is there anything in there? Like, let's just say I'm an interested buyer.

I would be interested in buying the 100 hours that you have. I would be interested in buying Bannon's 15, 16 hours that he has, right? I would be interested in both of them. how let me just add about Bannon's um what what the what the hours that Bannon has is that Bannon I wouldn't buy them from Bannon if I were you because Bannon does not own them oh who owns them I didn't know that the yeah Jeffrey Epstein paid for those those those tapes um that wow so the trust owns it yes oh yes the estate owns the state owns it so wow okay so that's that's a new fact

I didn't know the fact that, you know, that recording is not. So Bannon couldn't sell it if he tried. So if he wanted to do a documentary, he would never be able to use those hours in a documentary. Yes, and again, and again, let me stress that that, although Steve, who I am personally fond of, but Steve's cover here that he was making a documentary about Epstein is 100% not true. I know this because I was there and I'm fully aware and actually have it on tape of what transpired here. And that was Bannon's effort to help Epstein with his legal problems. And this would be in 2019 when the law was closing in on Epstein.

And Bannon's suggestion was that Epstein go on. national TV to try to perform a mea culpa or explain or humanize himself in some way. And then Bannon offered to help prepare him. So essentially, what Bannon was doing was media training. He was tutoring Epstein in how to face a hostile interview on a, you know, a hypothetical 60 minutes. Got it. So more of a training, a PR,

than anything else. So let's talk about your 100 hours that you have with them. How much information is in there that it's bombshell, you know, earth-shattering type of information where the public should know about out of the 100 hours you have with them?

Well, you know, it's a funny aspect of this. And, you know, people call me up now, you know, people of significant standing and say, Is there, you know, on the tapes, does Epstein promise Trump young girls? Or does Epstein promise banning young girls? It's that kind of thing. And I'm, and I kind of say, you know, I don't know, you know, you've obviously never done interviews with people.

I mean, when they ask that kind of thing. You know, these conversations unfold over a long period of, over a long period, and these are conversations like life itself. Epstein is talking about his life. There's lots and lots of details. There's lots of information that would be surprising. I suppose there are, you know, the daily mail could go through this and pull out a thousand headlines that that that would seem headline worthy when you listen to these tapes or when you were present as I was during during these things you don't have that feeling you have the feeling that this is incredibly interesting fascinating and it exposes a life so what you get as a life rather than than headlines. Although, as I say, I'm sure you could go through this

and pull out the sound bites, which would then add up to headlines. Would the FBI or the DOJ benefit from having access to these 100 hours? Well, benefit for what purpose, since Jeffrey Epstein is already dead? No, not necessarily. We know he's already dead. Just to gather more intel. With the FBI or the DOJ, if they're trying to get to the bottom of this, would they, would they, would they, well, I think it's a question of what they're, of what they're trying to get to the bottom of, if they are trying to get to the bottom of who Jeffrey Epstein was about the real nature of Jeffrey Epstein's personality, about Jeffrey Epstein's, not only his weaknesses, but his strengths. If they, if the, if the, if the, if the, if the, if the, if the, if the, if the,

If the FBI and the DOJ were biographers, as I am, they would find it interesting. Since they are not biographers, I think that they would probably be less interested than certainly I am. The FBI's job, you know, different than CIA, CIA is international, foreign, FBI is domestic. Their job is to make sure, you know, families in America are going to be safe. Americans are going to be safe. So anybody that's tied to this or to even eliminate or address a future next Epstein, they would probably benefit from studying the patterns of how this guy communicates. And if that's the case, has the FBI, has the Department of Justice, have they at all reached out to you since you've had these for six years, whether it's under Biden or Obama

to say, Biden or Trump, to say, hey, Michael, we think we need access to this recording that you have. No, they haven't. And they probably haven't for a lot of reasons. first, I'm a journalist and a writer, therefore that becomes a complicated thing. I mean, you know, Epstein was a source for what I was doing. So I think that they understand the difficulties there. And then I also think they're probably unclear on what they probably have no goals. There is probably no open investigation of Jeffrey Epstein. and of course to what point he is dead and there's no there's no to my knowledge open investigation

of anyone else involved with geoffrey epstein um galane is obviously um has obviously been that's been convicted i mean she's been convicted she's in jail and and it's now headed toward a part and so i don't think that there is that there is any any issue there so i so Again, crossing these disciplines of someone who has been interested in, someone has material that reflects the full life of this man. And then the FBI and the DOJ, who are not interested in the full life of this man, they're interested in only their highly segmented view of any given person. Yeah, but not even a doorknock, right? You've not even gotten a door knock on them.

Hey, Michael, can we see this? You've had nothing. No email, no door knock, no text, no phone call. Nope. Okay. And if you were to sell it to an interested party, What would be the range of your asking price? Well, I wouldn't sell it.

It's not for sale. Okay, so you're not selling it. I got it. No, I'm not a, you know, I'm not a, no, I'm a writer. So this is a story that I think is worth telling as a writer. It's a story that, you know, I mean, it's a pretty interesting story for me. So how I tell it and when I tell it, you know, is a, a kind of an organic and natural process. But, um, I don't know why I got the impression that you

were open to selling it and you, you said some people reached out or they didn't or you were surprised people. No, no, no, no. I mean, I have spoken to many, many outlets and, and, and, you know, but it is about telling this story. Um, it is not about, I, I would never sell this. I would never, you know, this is, this is, and this is an important aspect of being a writer and a journalist. This is my story. Makes sense. Not anyone else's story. Okay. I respect it. I respect it. Michael, on the topic of, you know, with his meeting, did you ever ask him about, because, you know, a lot of, I've sat down with his brother. On the topic, on the topic of. I've interviewed his brother, Mark Epstein. He came to my cigar lounge about, I don't know, a year and a half, two years. I don't

know the exact date, but he was with us for a couple hours. And we sat down with a lot of conversations. It was actually an interesting conversation. I enjoy talking to the guy on what he had to say. You'll hear the name being dropped of Mossad regularly that he had ties back to Mossad. I mean, why would Ihood, Barack visit his place 36 times? Why would he, you know, regularly have access to the White House when he would go see Clinton? Did you get a feeling from the hundred hours you got spoke together that there was any ties to the massage. Sure, sure. Let me give you

precisely my feeling, because I don't know, and, you know, Epstein I think it's very possible to say Epstein lived a very compartmentalized life. You saw what he wanted you to see. But I had been

at Epstein's house many, many, many times when Ahud Barak was there. Certainly a dozen times, maybe more. Wow. And Ahud Barak and Jeffrey Epstein were very close. I mean, I think among, you know, they were, they were certainly among each other's closer friends.

And, you know, I think it's been documented that Ahud Barak got money from Epstein and they were, had various, various business dealings together. but also they clearly enjoyed each other. I mean, I saw this again and again and again. And obviously, Ahud Barak has had a very clear connection to Mossad, although Ahud Barak, a former prime minister, was out of power, but very much knowledgeable about and engaged in the Israeli political, in the Israeli power structure. Having said that, and therefore, Epstein himself was very knowledgeable about Israel, about its interests, about its politics, and to a degree about its intelligence.

my view of of Epstein however is that he was he possessed the information he possessed would be better characterized as gossip rather than intelligence and and Epstein was a great gossip a great purveyor of information in information in whatever form and And he was a purveyor of that information to a wide variety of people. I mean, he certainly was not, he certainly had no one client he was passing information to. Information was part of Epstein's currency, and it was, and it was a currency that he used for, I think, financial gain, but also for social climbing. So one of the reasons people would come to Epstein's house and sit around his table is that you would hear things that the New York Times didn't know. But this was not carefully shared. This was, as I say, a gossip's currency. I mean, some would say gossip and intel are cousins.

you know they're somewhat related i can still gossip and give you intel that they are that they are are related they're just not the same thing and i'm not sure that if you would that you would necessarily um want your intelligence agent to be one of the world's biggest gossips because he couldn't contain himself he would tell anyone anything he couldn't contain himself epstein couldn't contain himself so he was always talking i always so that's that's actually that that makes for a terrible Mossade. It's terrible. Yes.

I would say. Because in a part of it, which is kind of weird, when he said they had a, at one point, Ehud Barak, they had a scheduled monthly meeting, I think 15 consecutive months. And one time, and these happened like at 2015, 2017, 2013, found no mistake. And somebody can search this and verify it. And even at one point, Ehud Barak said, I actually didn't know about his dealings in the past. I didn't know that he had these things that were said, which is kind of naive to say that, being the prime minister of Israel.

Ehud is full of shit. You know, Ehud knew Jeffrey. I mean, did Ahud know that Jeffrey's, that Jeffrey Epstein had clearly had a fetish for young girls? I don't know, I don't know to what extent Ahud knew that. But Ahud certainly was not, did not know as he now represents Jeffrey Epstein. on a casual basis. They were close, close, close, close friends. Did you, what did you, what was your feeling about Ehud

when you were around? Was it just like it was nonchalant? They were just hanging out because the investment Epstein had made, I think, in Carbine 9-11, or did you, what feeling did you get from him? Yeah, good, bad, indifferent. Completely.

Ahood was there, came to Jeffrey Epstein's because he enjoyed it. Okay. He enjoyed meeting other people. He enjoyed, I mean, A-Hood, who as I say I have spent a lot of time with now

Ehud is an incredible gas bag I think that he will go oh my God he would go anywhere he would be anywhere in any situation in which people were he had a captive audience

to listen to him go on and on and on and on and Jeffrey Epstein listened to him he indulged him for you know, I mean, I mean, Ahood gave, you know, I mean, I would say in any hour block of

conversation, AHood might supply five minutes of interesting information. When you were, Ron EPSON. 55 minutes, others, you'll have to let me. I haven't heard that word in a long time. Did you see, when you were there on your visits, did you see young girls that did you see a lot of pretty girls that? Did you see models there? Was that something that was part of the energy of being in this place or not at all?

Yes, there were always a set of young women. And I mean, young women, they would clearly have been in their 20s, you know, possibly even late 20s. That's old for Henda, I wouldn't be surprised if you. Yes, yeah, no, who were there as assistance and, you know, basically, basically assistance. To find assistance, because there's a lot of ways

to assist men. Well, no, they did. They took, they made his appointments and they, Oh, assistants. Like assistants? Or do you think they were assisting? No, no, they were assistants.

Like they were the receptionist. They were the this. They would come in. They would bring him. Forgive me. I thought you meant something else. So, okay, so you were saying there were his personal assistants

that were there. And are they bringing you tea, coffee? Hey, would you like some? Yes, they did. They did all of all of that. I mean, I always equated them, you know, if you live in New York where I've lived for a long time, you know, there are high-end art galleries in which there are always clearly young women who are the receptionists and who are there to kind of guide you. give you information and they all are clearly chosen because of of the their poise and the way they they present and and that's what the these women in epstein's house and i think they were different

from the women you know the massage women in palm beach and then the set of eastern european models that that that would that that would occasionally see you know I think that there this this was so this was part of this carefully orchestrated echo system of women around Jeffrey Epstein when you were at his place did Bill Gates or Barack Obama ever come by or no you did not see them there I know I don't think Barack Obama knows Epstein. Bill Gates, yes.

So you did see Bill Gates visit, so he was around. Oh, okay, got it. Because I think his wife at the end, you know, when she said something in one of the interviews where she's like, I was not comfortable how close he was getting to Epstein. And even Bill Gates in another interview later on said, yes, I probably shouldn't have gotten close to him, et cetera, et cetera. We've seen this interview. You've definitely seen it as well.

Yeah, no. And I think that that's a, I mean, I think Gates and Epstein were actually. quite close and certainly as long ago as you know 2014 Epstein related conversations to me about about Gates complaining to Epstein about his marriage and his wife so I think that it was a you know and I mean one of the things that that Epstein did and one of the things that he was involved in And when he was involved with these very, very wealthy men, he got involved in family matters that impacted on the fortunes, on these various fortunes.

And obviously, divorce impacts on a great fortune. Got it. So this is the whole idea about, hey, let's take this money and put it elsewhere pre-getting married and pay a consulting fee to prevent from having to pay half of it, creative ways of not paying as much to your spouse if you go through a divorce? Yes. Okay, got it. In regards to the business model, did you guys talk about how he makes money?

I mean, how he originally made his money? Because I've never... We did, and that's always, you know, I think that that's one of those aspects of his life that was very compartmentalized. I mean, I've had this discussion with him, but do not feel that I, I certainly didn't feel that I was getting the whole story, quite the opposite. It was rather, he was, he kind of teased you with the story, you know, for, at, I mean, he told me once he said, when I pressed him, you know, and I said, okay, tell me, come on, where it is, where does the dough come from? I mean, I've seen him, you know, in many instances. I never saw him, however, do a lick of work.

So what was going on? Where did this come from? And he said, and I remember he said, again, in a very teasing kind of way, he said, well, I run something like a reverse Ponzi scheme. In a real Ponzi scheme, you make money that does not exist, appear. to exist. In my Ponzi scheme, I make money that exists appear not to exist. And the example was, if you're a wealthy, very wealthy person and getting a divorce, and if you hide $100 million, or at least make $100 million of your wealth disappear, you've just saved $50 million. Yeah, there was a guy that Mark Epstein told me that was Epstein's mentor,

I don't remember the gentleman's name. He went away, and he was in the, what's his name, Stephen Hoffberg? He's Stephen Hoffenberg? I don't know if you know about, okay, yeah. I do. Did that name ever come up or no between the two of you? You know, it came up in the Hoffenberg, who Epstein had been involved with, and Hoffenberg had an insurance company that collapsed.

and Hoffenberg went to jail for a long time, like, I don't, like 15 years. And then he got out of jail, and he started to press Epstein for what I don't exactly know. But it was, that was something I was aware of going on in the background. Now, Mark Epstein, just by the way, you know, had also not been really his relationship with his brother had been, was at best strained for quite a number of years. He said that as well. He said that they were not as close. I said, you guys live a few minutes with each other. How often you guys have dinner or lunch together?

Not that often. Maybe once every couple. I'm like, you're a few minutes away. So that was a very interesting dynamic as well, the relationship between the two. And my understanding of that, and I don't have a complete understanding because, I mean, that was not something that Epstein seemed to want to talk about, was that his brother distanced after Epstein's legal difficulties beginning in 2004. His brother, like Galane, distance himself from Jeffrey Epstein.

So two people who he contacted last before he passed away. One of them was his German girlfriend, who was Karina. She was not German. She was from, as I understand, and I mean I had met her a few times from Belarus. She was from Belarus. We got to get this right because, you know, the guys, her name is Karina Shuliak. Karina Shulia. Belarus.

Okay, so from Belarus. And I said German, forgive me to all the people from Belarus. I didn't want to offend you. So he calls her last one, but he texts you last. What were the last text exchanges with him? And exactly how much longer after his last text you did he die? Yeah, you know, I think that he, I mean, and he was not a text, really. It came through his lawyers, so he couldn't text.

He was given, they had gotten him the clearance to call. the girlfriend um um but my my the message to me had come through one of the lawyers i mean i knew the lawyers and i passed them a message i said you know i mean just and the message that i sent to him was you know uh you know how are you doing or you know just that kind of that kind of thing and and his response to that message was um unless the context of this is that's about a week before he had apparently tried to hang himself, or that's what people said, or again, a confusing situation. But his response to me was, quote, still hanging around. So how are you? Still hanging around. And then X number of hours later, I mean, this was on Friday, early on Saturday

morning he was um um found you know with a bed sheet around his neck and that's a weird text so so the lawyer sends you a text of his last man to saying still hanging around maybe he was hanging around meaning the lawyer saying he's dying me so the lawyer told you still hanging around that could be a cryptic message well i mean i i don't know i mean it is a cryptic message but you know it is, I mean, in my understanding of Epstein and how he responded to things, he was responding to that the news coverage of that he had apparently tried to hang himself, but then they actually said he hadn't tried, there was a dispute about that, and that was his reference to make a joke out of that, which would have been very Jeffrey Epstein-ish.

Did Nicholas Tortagliano ever come up, his cellmate, the guy that, you know, multiple times beat up the same person on four different occasions? They didn't come up, did not come up with me. I mean, those are the community, that's the only communication I would have had with, with, or direct communication. With the last few minutes we have together here, Michael. So this is why I wish this was face to face. We could go four hours. but last last conversation about Trump so you're you're not a fan of Trump some would even say you know you have you have animosity towards him maybe even hate towards them it's felt that way

if I watch you in the interviews what what what does your feeling towards well I don't I mean I you know I feel that that that um that Donald Trump is should not be the president of the United States, is not the kind of person I would certainly elect as the President of the United States, is not the kind of person who can carry out what I know to be the demands of being the President of the United States. I mean, Donald Trump, I don't hate Donald Trump. I have no personal animosity toward Donald Trump. As a matter of fact, when we get, when we're together, we get along just fine. And I've known Donald Trump for quite a long time back in in in in uh in new york days um so um i you know i just i just i just i just feel that all of his

his impulses as the president of the united states are ultimately damaging and um and um and and counterproductive you think some of these stories of you know malania you know how he met her and epstein ties you know you Do you think some of these could be coming from a place? Because everybody tried to get them on Russia. That came back. That wasn't good. Everybody tried to get them on all this stuff weird, 2024.

Hey, here's his mugshot. And every single time, it seems like it's become the next hoax and the next hoax. So maybe people right now are saying, you really think there's any ties with Epstein and Trump? Well, I think that they, people need to know about. Well, there are clearly ties with Epstein and Trump. I mean, the idea that is. But anything nefarious, nefarious. Nefarious.

Well, it's how you define, I don't know, this is what I know, I won't even try to define, that they were friends for well more than a decade, almost 15 years. They were interested, both of them were interested primarily in the two things they were interested in were women, girls, and money, get rich, quick, money stuff. and the girls women girls they were interested in obsessively so fetishistically in a way were models and remember this was the age of the model supermodels runway models catalog models eastern European models and a wide population of girls who just dreamed of being models That's what they saw as status. That was the thing that turned them on, I suppose, you know, Trump's interest in beauty pageants, Epstein with Victoria's Secret Girls. That's what they were in constant pursuit of.

And then people say to me, but you don't mean to say that Donald Trump was interested in. little girls and I say I listen I all what I know is they were interested in models how old are models models in certainly at that point in time were anywhere from you know I don't know 14 to 20 basically I don't when I hear models I don't think 14 to 20 I think you know well then you would be incorrect in that because that's what they were yeah no I I'm sure there's young models there. I'm sure there's, and that's not what I'm saying, but what I'm saying is, you know, it's easy to the gossip intel when they flirt with each other, right? So that leads to accusations and then everyone's writing about it and the next thing, you know, like the story,

you know, the story I read about Princess Diana, you know, the competition between the two. Did you share that story? Was that story shared by Samaria? I did. Would you mind sharing that story? Well, that was just the kind of, you know, they were, they were deeply interested. in in the royal family both both of them and why were they interested in the royal family because the royal family was a was a great social climbing vector you remember Donald Trump both Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein are always trying to raise money where do we get money from and you know Donald Trump by that point had gone through several bankruptcies I mean nobody at this point is blue chip so how do you raise money fairly large sums

of money. Well, you raise money by knowing people who can give you access to money. How do you know those people? Well, there are lots of ways, lots of social climbing ways, but one of them, the best ways, is to know someone in the royal family. So it was both Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein became in a hot pursuit of access to the royal family. Most successfully, with Prince Andrew, but at one point, then they had this competition. And it was, you know, this was, I don't know how serious this was, or how it was just to amuse them about who would be the first one to sleep with Diana. This was after the marriage to Charles had basically broken up. Did anybody win? That, I don't know. I don't know if Jeffrey told you this. But Michael, I, we're at the time of

one hour. I want to respect your time in the calendar and schedule you gave me. I appreciate the time. I know it's not often. You get on podcasts that are maybe not mainstream or somebody that could be potentially seen as the complete opposite side. So I appreciate you for making a time. I'm delighted because I am, listen, many of the, most of the people I seem to spend my time with are actually, are actually Trump people who I have over 10 years, which is why I'm so well-sourced, become very friendly with them. I like Trump people. Very cool.

I don't like Trump, but I like Trump people. But you have good times with Trump, so I don't know what happened there between the two of you guys. It sounds like you enjoy his time. You just maybe not like his policies. Yeah, no, no, I always find. I mean, spending time with Trump is always certainly fascinating. Makes sense. Michael, till next time, thank you so much for your time. We're going to put the link to all your books below as well for those who want to go pick up the books.

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