PBD Podcast - "Couldn't Win Without Me" - Scottie Pippen BREAKS SILENCE On Jordan, NBA Legacy & Bulls Dynasty | PBD Podcast | Ep. 536

Episode Date: January 17, 2025

In this explosive interview, NBA legend Scottie Pippen holds nothing back as he discusses the shocking decline of the NBA, criticizing the modern game for being too soft, Adam Silver's leadership, and the loss of millions of fans. Pippen dives into the impact of the 3-point era, the death of defense, and how today's stars like LeBron James and Victor Wembanyama lack the toughness of his era. He also reflects on his iconic run with the Chicago Bulls, his complicated relationship with Michael Jordan, the GOAT debate, behind-the-scenes drama, and how social media, politics, and player power have forever changed the NBA. Raw, unfiltered, and brutally honest—this is Scottie Pippen like you've NEVER heard him before. -------- 👕 GET THE LATEST VT MERCH: ⁠https://bit.ly/3BZbD6l⁠ 📕 PBD'S BOOK "THE ACADEMY": ⁠https://bit.ly/41rtEV4⁠ 📰 VTNEWS.AI: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/3OExClZ⁠ 🎙️ FOLLOW THE PODCAST ON SPOTIFY: ⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4g57zR2⁠ 🎙️ FOLLOW THE PODCAST ON ITUNES: ⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4g1bXAh⁠ 🎙️ FOLLOW THE PODCAST ON ALL PLATFORMS: ⁠https://bit.ly/4eXQl6A⁠ 📱 CONNECT ON MINNECT: ⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4ikyEkC⁠ 👔 BET-DAVID CONSULTING: ⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/3ZjWhB7⁠ 🎓 VALUETAINMENT UNIVERSITY: ⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/3BfA5Qw⁠ 📺 JOIN THE CHANNEL: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4g5C6Or⁠ 💬 TEXT US: Text “PODCAST” to 310-340-1132 to get the latest updates in real-time! ABOUT US: Patrick Bet-David is the founder and CEO of Valuetainment Media. He is the author of the #1 Wall Street Journal Bestseller “Your Next Five Moves” (Simon & Schuster) and a father of 2 boys and 2 girls. He currently resides in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida.

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advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. We're so done with New Year, New You. This year, it's more you on Bumble. More of you shamelessly sending playlists, especially that one filled with show tunes. More of you finding Geminis because you know you always like them. More of you dating with intention because you know what you want. And you know what? We love that for you. Someone else will too.

Be more you this year and find them on Bumble. When your book came out, I think you said something about how do you want to be remembered? And you said, I want to be remembered as the greatest of all time. You know, the reason why I say stuff like that is because when you play the game the way that I played it, why can't I say that? That's okay. You can say that. No one's saying you can't say that. Say it and mean it. Also, you do believe that. That's okay, you can say that. No one's saying you can't say that. Say it and mean it. Also, you do believe that. I'm saying, yeah. Yeah.

Look at the stats. I got six rings too. Look at my accolades. I got defensive player, all NBA, so. Playing the game the right way and winning means something to me what's the lesson you and Michael spoke did it end up being good the conversation but good and final so when you guys played together how often was it for you guys to have dinner together Chicago has a lot of great... Scotty, stop it.

Scotty, stop it. Would you put yourself ahead of LeBron as a team standpoint? I don't know. You want individual accolades or you want championships? Cause I didn't chase mines. days months. So as a former fan of the NBA, I really wanted to have this conversation with Scotty because look, I'm a diehard fan of the last dance documentary, the game, the fight, the greatness, what it took to win six championships. But today he said some stuff I've never heard before.

The amount, his relationship with Michael, the last time him and Michael spoke, how many episodes of The Last Dance he watched, and after which episode he stopped watching The Last Dance. Then I asked him about the product of the NBA. Why it's been down 48% the last 12 years. I played a clip of Colin Cowhert saying what he said and his answer, he didn't hold back.

He just straight up went to it. It got uncomfortable a couple times when we discussed the relationship with he and Michael and he did not hold back. He was very respectful yet at the same time gave his perspective. I asked him, do you believe you're the greatest of all time?

Because that's what you said in your book. And you have to watch that part. Then a couple funny stories, the cat story of Horace Grant, why he would mispractice. What happened with Isaiah Thomas and how a former guy who was no longer with us, he passed away in 2018, was a big part of influence and why Isaiah didn't play on the Dream Team 1992.

And again, as an NBA fan, if you love the game and you love the 90s and you love seeing them dominate, whether you're a Knicks fan and you hated them, whether you're a Lakers fan like me and you saw them lose to the Bulls, the Lakers, you're going to enjoy this conversation with the one and only Hall of Famer number 33, Scottie Pippen. Adam, what's your point? The future looks bright. My handshake is better than anything I ever saw. It's right here. You are a 101? My son's right there. I think I've ever said this before. Scotty, I think we're finally doing this. Yes, we are. This is actually happening. Yes. And for the viewers that are watching this, they have no idea that I told you. And we were, by the way, we started off with a heated debate. You missed it. The debate was over who's got the best voice in the NBA

You you speak? Effortless, but you have these I don't know if you've been told this you got the best voice in the AB You said somebody else got the best voice Yes credit to somebody else. Well, you gave me the credit right the best voice in association So I said, yeah, I may have to give it to dr. J. Well, you gave me the credit of having the best voice in the association, so I said, yeah, I may have to give it to Dr. J. Yeah, you said Dr. J. And listen, we can say a lot of things

to give credit to him. I played his voice, he doesn't have a Scottie Pippen voice. But it's great to have you here. I know we've spoken the last few years about having you on and, you know, both coming out, a bunch of different conversations we had,

and, you know, the audience, there's certain people that don't need an introduction. Six championships, dream, I think you got two gold medals if I'm not mistaken, seven time All-Star. Your career average was a two steals per game. I think you're seventh all time if I'm not mistaken in that category.

That's not an easy stat. As a catalog of your career to maintain a 2.0 To steals a game. There's a lot of things to be talked about you with the things that you've done But we got a lot to talk to talk about today, so I'm glad you're here So I want to start off with a very We start off soft and we get tougher as the podcast gets ahead. So let's start off with something very soft So when I look at the NBA Myself as a guy that consumed the game, 24-7, I never missed a game from the day I came to the States,

1990, till 98, I watched everything. I was a Lakers guy. So I'm talking Nick Van Ansel, Sadal Treat if you know these names, Eldon Campbell, you know, I can give you some lineup of guys we watched that Eddie Jones, Trevor Reza came a little later, but I go all the way back.

When you watch the viewership of NBA Finals, you guys, what you did, what Michael did, Chicago Bulls, I don't know what the number is, Rob, if you type in NBA Finals viewership, 38 million, 36 million, 32 million. And then you see the stats today. And the stats come out saying the NBA viewership is down 48% the last 12 years. I no longer watch the NBA. To me, they've lost me as a fan. You as somebody who was face known worldwide, what happened to the NBA the last 10-20 years?

Well, I feel like that the game changed. It became more of a perimeter shooter game, if I remember right when I was leaving the game early 2000 that the league promoted more scoring. They wanted to get more points up on the board. They felt like that would get the fans more engaged. Tail end of your career. Yes. Okay, I got it. So it, at that point to me, it started looking more like a game bill for offensive players

Guys that did play defense and you know took pride in playing defense Were to some degree punished I felt like because everything was working in favor of the offensive player and then they went they they put the Circle in there where a guy is not allowed to take a charge at certain points in the lane, at a certain position in the lane. So I think what a lot of things changing within the game and a lot of it was for the good looking at, you know, the physicality of the game as to where it was in the 90s. But I think a lot of that got wiped away.

And I think that's where a lot of the fans lost interest in the game. So you're saying, cause LeBron said the three point game, right? A lot of people said the three-point game You're saying the defense Rob. I just pulled this up, which is a very interesting stat by the way based on what you're saying I pulled up what your the NBA averaged the least amount of points Okay per game over the history of it Rob just pull up the link and put it up very very interesting The last two you guys won the championship together was it 97-98 or 98-99?

It was 97-98. 97-98. So this is interesting. Zoom in a little bit, Rob. So if you look at the league right there and go on to the category of points. Points is keep going to the right, keep going to the right, keep going right there. There's points right there. Right there. Okay. So watch that. In 2024-2025, right now the NBA average is 113 points a game. Last year was 114, 115, 110. So since 2018, it's been average in 111 points a game. Then if you go back to 2012, it was 98, 96, 99. Okay. If you go a little bit lower, going keep going keep going keep

going keep going look at the 97 98 now you see 92 points a game that's 98 99 95.6 96.9 right with the points per game what what else you think it is that turned fans away from the game because to me, how much of it do you think, and I'll ask these questions and you're probably gonna be more diplomatic than me because you're in the game, how much of it do you think David Stern, what is the different style of David Stern

running the NBA versus an Adam Silver? I felt like David Stern era era he ran the game. I Think Adam Silver's era. He's more or less allowing the players to Have some input in terms of how the rules of the game Are changing. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Well, it looks like it's pretty bad right now. Oh interesting, but I think From a standpoint of players being healthy

Those are some precautionary Measures that they've taken in in the game where players don't like to play back to back So I I think it's a it's a lot of things, you know to back. So I think it's a lot of things. I definitely feel like the three-point shot has turned fans away from the game because it's just no teamwork in shooting a three-point shot. There's no teamwork in coming down and taking a shot from behind the three-point line. But there's teamwork in coming down and executing a play. Everybody touches the ball and you get a bucket out of it, whether it's a two or a three. But it's something that drew fans, drew people

to love the game, to love certain teams that played a certain way. And I don't think you see that in today's game. I feel like the last team that played with that kind of chemistry was the Golden State Warriors. They had sort of a team chemistry where they moved the ball, but it was about a lot of jump shooting, a lot of three-point shooters, but they had the greatest shooters

in the history of the game. And they had the greatest shooters in the game at that time. So it was a great sight to really see a great team executing, playing together, and shooting the three-point shot. Well, in today's game, as we watch it, we don't see that great team chemistry of a team

that has been doing this and have longevity of success. So it makes it hard for you to lock in and like what you're seeing. Yeah, that's, you know, it's funny. A few years ago, the NBA All-Star, probably five, six years ago, I don't know if you remember, Janis had the team, LeBron had the team,

in the fourth quarter, they were playing up to 157, whoever hit 157 would win. I saw defense I hadn't seen since your era. It was amazing. Even Kobe would play the defense in, what do you call it, in all-star games, so you would see that element, himself, McGrady, some of these guys would play. But in that moment, I'm sitting there thinking to myself

as a fan, I'm like, why am I liking this? This is freaking amazing. So defense was very attractive to me because it's a fight, right? It's a fight that the other side is putting up. I want to ask you a question. When you were playing and you guys had fans in Chicago, you guys were, can we say that the 10 year run you had, you were like the Beatles? You were like Elvis Presley. You were like, is it fair to say, no matter where you guys went, everybody wanted to see you guys. The show in town, no matter where you guys went.

I would definitely say that's fair, but I would give a lot of the credit to Michael Jordan because of the fact that he had created something with the Chicago Bulls and that myself and other guys that came along, we built up on that. And it became, in the late 90s, when we got Dennis Rotman on the team,

that we were, or people looked at us as a rock band. And when we came to different cities, we had that kind of feeling that, you know, we had to put on a show, we had to perform. And that's why when you look at those teams, especially my bull teams back there, there were no days off, you know? Guys came to play where they were injured, sick,

no matter what because We felt like that we had to perform and that there were people coming out to watch us perform Yeah, and and you know when when I watch it that way and I see the numbers, you know The we're gonna get into the debates of michael lebron kobe all this stuff. We'll get into that here in a minute But the question I wanted to ask you is when you you guys played for the Bulls, and politicians showed up, okay, say Republicans showed up, Democrats showed up, and they'd come and speak to you. And Michael made that one comment that we read about,

I don't know if he said that or not, you know what I'm talking about, where, it's like, listen, Republicans also buy shoes too, right? And Obama in the last stand said, I was kind of disappointed that he didn't come and support that one candidate, and even Michael's mother wasn't happy. You know the story, I'm telling you stuff that you lived it.

So I'm more the guy watching it from the outside. As a comparison of face of the league to face of the league, not talent, we're not talking like, who's the better team player? Who's the better scorer? Who's more dominant? Who's a bigger winner, Michael to LeBron. How much of it you think also the face of the league,

MJ was the face of the league, then maybe you put Kobe, Shaq, the next era, then you put LeBron, Curry, the next era. As the face of the league, how much did Michael's approach to defense cause people to come that could care less about politics, left, right, and center fall in love with it, versus now the face of the league with social media? Some fans are like, if you don't like me,

I don't even want to come contribute to watch a game anymore, because you kind of speaking to me in a way that you want to see me come watch and play. That specific debate, what did you notice between those two of gaining different fans? Well, I can say in today's era, especially with social media,

players allow the public to know their personal things, whether it's political, financial, family, whatever. They allow the public to get involved in it. So when you ask me to make that comparison with Michael or LeBron, well, Michael never put himself in that position. I mean, his words speak for himself. I mean, he's never gonna put himself in a position

where you know his political thinking, his political mindset. He stays away from that. He's a basketball player. He's not a politician. He's not one that's going to get involved in any kind of debate. He's going to focus more on playing basketball and what it takes to win championships. And that's all he's gonna focus more on playing basketball and what it takes to win championships. And that's all he's gonna speak around. Was he like that behind closed doors and on camera when he's being interviewed? Yeah, that was just his whole mindset

because as we look at it today, he had a big engine, a big brand behind him that he's always had to protect. But like you know as a young guy you're coming up when he would give you advice like different things that you guys spoke about you know I know the one thing you talked about with when you went to the Rockets he said you should have never we'll talk you know which one I'm talking about when he's like you could have gone a different place but did he give that feedback to guys coming up?

Hey guys, we don't talk politics here. Hey guys, don't bring that kind of attention here. Because the head coach, Phil Jackson, when you study about him, and back in the days when he played for the Knicks, he played with a couple guys that all they talked about in the locker room was politics. So you get a Phil who's very political,

but he keeps it to himself, he's philosophical. You get a Michael, was it one of those things that it's a code? We as a unit almost ran like a mob. We don't touch politics, we don't talk about it. Did he run it that way? I don't think he really ran it. I think he's just led by example.

If you don't speak it, then you know that that's not an area, that's a gray area that he doesn't want to talk about. And obviously if any politician, anyone wants him to, you know, donate or do anything publicly, then he's never gonna get involved with that. What a move to make, good for him to make a move like that. Do you think that indirectly, that position helped the NBA grow its viewership because

it attracts all types of people? Yes, it did because like I said, in the 90s we didn't have social media. So we didn't have a way to turn fans off, especially from a political standpoint. We didn't have a way to encourage them from a political standpoint. We didn't have a way to encourage them from a political standpoint. So we just had basketball and it was a lot easier to focus on our craft and our job and grow from that. We didn't have a lot of the distractions

that players have now with social media. We have a lot of newspapers, there were more magazines and things printing stories, but it takes weeks, days, months for those kind of stories to get out. Whereas social media is every day, it's 24-7, it's every 30 minutes, every minute something's jumping off. Do you think if social media was there back then,

like you know Ronaldo right now is the most followed guy, I don't know what he's got, 600 million followers, something like that on Instagram. If social media was around when you guys were playing, how big would you guys and would Michael have been? I mean, Ronaldo's got 647 million followers right now on Instagram. How big would have been if social media was around

when you guys were playing? Maybe Dennis Rodman would have had the most following, who knows? Yeah, I mean, it would have been different. Definitely, you know, with looking at these numbers, you don't know how, you know, being a player that played in the nineties, how these numbers come about and, you know, what they really mean because we didn't grow up in this social media area, but definitely You know who you're talking about you know that you know, he's one of the greatest players greatest athletes in the world and

So I'm 47 million for itself. So you think Michael would have been there if social media was around at that time Kind of took the NBA to I think he would have probably doubled if social media was around at that time? Michael kind of took the NBA to... I think he would have probably doubled that, I'm gonna be honest. Seriously. Yeah, I would say because basketball in the 90s, when it first jumped off and, you know, just having social media back then would have just been amazing. I remember in 1987 when I was drafted, that's when the NBA signed a international deal with China where games were now being shown all over the world,

pretty much definitely all over China. So the game was growing then. And at that point, Michael was four or five years already into the game was growing then. And at that point, Michael was four or five years already into the game. So I'm just speaking when I started in the league, the growth of what I've seen in basketball, I've traveled all over the world from Italy, Germany, early 90s, late 80s, really talking about basketball, growing

basketball, talking about the Olympics and lo and behold 1992 we're playing in the Olympics and now you know 30 years later you know there's nothing but NBA players playing the Olympics now so things have changed and you know players all around the world has definitely gained more confidence, more interest in playing in the NBA. That's amazing. Scottie, who were some people you saw?

Because your last year was it 0304? If I'm looking at this 0304. So 04 is when Barack gave the speech at the DNC when he blew up That's when he came out and he gave one the greatest speeches of all time Did Barack ever come watch you play or did Trump ever come watch you play? Did you ever see either one of them at the games? No, I never see really neither one of them No, you know being Barack was a Chicago guy

He probably watched from a suite or something from that standpoint if he came to the game But I've never had made him out of game neither him nor Trump No, so Trump never watched the polls. He had to have gone to a bulls game. I Doubt it really so he's a New York guy. You know what you go to the Knicks I mean that era of you guys going to the Knicks it would have been Something to want to watch you when you guys were on I stayed at a lot of Trump hotels back in my playing days. You stayed out of Trump hotels? No, we stayed at a lot of them.

Oh, you stayed at Trump hotels, got it. What is that, Rob? Is that so he's out there Knicks against Bucks. Can you see if there's a Trump with Chicago Bulls, Trump watching Chicago Bulls? Just curious if, well that's Trump in a Chicago Bulls jersey. That's funny, people, okay. These are now, these are all AI-driven things in Chicago Bulls, just curious if, well that's Trump in a Chicago Bulls jersey.

That's funny, people, okay, these are now, these are all AI driven things that you're showing. Yeah, it's kinda hard to find something real. Who was the guy, first time you were playing, you're in there 87, I remember your rookie card, by the way, the rookie Fleer card, right? I remember what that looked like. So, when you came in, who was the first guy at a game where you're like, oh shit, look who's here today?

Was it somebody you saw on the sidelines where you were a little bit shocked or not really? You were so focused on the game. I was more or less focused on the game, but there were time when the Reverend Jesse Jackson, who I'd never met playing in Chicago, would show up and be courtside, Oprah Winfrey. That's right, Chicago.

Yeah, so back in the day, Gene Sisko, who was a very close friend of mine, some movie critic, he passed away, God rest his soul. But I was never a guy that really focused on who was watching me play. I didn't care who was in the stands. I've always been a player that focused on the game, my team, the success, and how do we win.

That's it, I don't care who's coming to watch. Let me ask you two of them. Let me ask you two of them and see if you, did you ever have Michael Jackson come watch the game or Prince, either one of those two? I think I had Prince, well, I can't say. I think Prince came to a game down in Minnesota. Prince did?

Yeah, when we played the Timberwolves. I've never seen Michael at a game. You ever wanna watch him perform? Did you ever go to one of his concerts? No. No, okay, so for me, two regrets. I never got a chance to see Michael Jackson perform, and I never got a chance to watch you guys play, ever.

Wow. Ever, I never got a chance to watch you guys play. Yeah, that was when, 2000s, wow, it's been eight years already. That is absolutely wild, that it's been eight years already with interesting how fast time flies by. You mentioned dream team earlier, Kai. With the dream team taking place,

obviously we can go back to one of the topics that we followed very closely. That lineup right there, who's on the team by the way? So you got yourself, Stockton, Bird, Michael, Clyde Drexler, Mullin, Barkley, Malone, I think that's David Robinson, Magic, Ewing, and Leighton. You got Chuck Daly as a coach. And when you go back, and the main story

that we hear about, there's two stories that we hear about. One story is the greatest game ever played that nobody ever saw. That story where Magic is talking smack to Michael. What is your point of view of that game? Do you remember it? Well, if you look at that, I was one of the youngest guys on that team,

beyond Leightner, but it was just one of those practices where guys just talking trash. Guys were excited to, you know, be in the gym for one and practicing. And, you know, Magic was one of those guys that, you know, he wanted to rah rah and get everybody together, but also, hey, we're here to work. And so Magic made it a little more competitive

and started kind of poking a little bit at Michael, letting him know, you know, I've been away and you got a championship, but hey, I'm still Magic. And da da da. And so it just kind of got a little bit heated, nothing in a bad way, just one of those days where, you know where Michael put more energy on the basketball court than he did on the golf course.

But yeah, he came out and was talking trash. And every day out the practice, we would go back to the rooms and play cards and just kind of sit around and talk and smoke cigars and things. What was your favorite memory of the Dream Team, 92? You know, it's just not one thing. Just being around guys who you looked at,

who you idolized and always wondered, what make them tick, what make them tick, what make them go, what pushes them, what their daily workout is like, what do they do every day? And just kind of being in their surroundings, and I'm talking to everybody from Larry Bird, who was at the end of his career,

as well as Magic. Yeah, but just kind of being around those guys and finally getting to know them. Not having to feel like it's a day where I got to guard Larry Bird, you know. It's a competitive moment, but having the opportunity to bond with them, to have breakfast with them, to meet their families,

just to see what their lives are like away from the game. Just having the opportunity to say, I'm a friend of Larry Bird, you know, that's better than me going through my whole career and saying, hey, I played against Bird five times, you know, and yeah, he was tough, but that opportunity to kind of break bread, to bond, it kind of opened up a different door for us, I guess, in the NBA world because we've never had that opportunity

to really come together. It was always about competing, you know. You look at the Bulls and the Pistons, and there was never an opportunity for us to ever just come together and break bread and say, hey, we had some great competitive years, man, and this and that, just to talk basketball. But that moment to get all those players together, and you build more respect for people, too.

Just after that, I mean, I had opportunity. We played against Carl Malone and John Stockton twice after that, you know? So not only am I competing with them, you know, for our NBA championship, but I just won two gold medals with these two dudes, you know? So this is competitive, but it means something to both of us, you know?

That we've gotten back to the finals, you know? Who did you learn a lot from? Who were you like? You know, you hear the documentary about when Dwayne Wade and LeBron, they said LeBron learned about work ethic of Kobe after going to the Olympics with him. He's like, I had no idea this guy worked.

So I thought I was a hard worker, but then he's like, holy shit, this is how the guy trains, this is how he works, and you heard the stories from Carmelo, and you heard the story from, was it Bosch? I think Bosch is the one that told one of the stories, right? When you went there, was it, because I would assume on Michael's mindset of going there

was to make sure he sets the record straight. It's my MBA. I'm here to set the tone, right? Because you guys had just won one, if I'm not mistaken. But when you're going there and you're trying to size some of these guys up as well, who did you learn a lot from when you're like, I had no idea that guy had that kind of work ethic. That guy was very disciplined. That guy doesn't drink. He never partied.

He didn't come and do this. He had to get asleep. This guy had to do this. What patterns did you learn about some of your peers and competitors? Well, you definitely get a chance to see their work ethics away from the game, because we definitely spent time, you know, together. But it gave me a chance to really bond with some guys that I probably thought I never would. I bonded with Carl Malone, I bonded with Patrick Ewing. We would work out together, so I got a chance to see what it's like working with these guys, not just on the court, but off the court, but having the opportunity to go do extra stuff on the basketball court to learn kind of what their extra work includes, what do they work on, what are their weaknesses.

Who were you impressed by? Well, I was very impressed with Karl Malone in the weight room. He is a beast. Because of how much he pushed? Yeah, yeah I mean he is just a beast. I mean he stays in the gym for hours and just works until you can't pick up a cup of coffee. So that was him. Wow. Who was very disciplined with sleep and diet? I'm assuming Charles Barkley was very disciplined with... With eating and hanging out. I mean, I've just read about it. I would say someone who really focused on their diet probably was more like someone

like Chris Mullin. Chris Mullin? Yeah. Really? Yeah. He was... I'm just talking about conditioning like this guy him and Patrick They were just so focused on their conditioning every day every day

But who talked the most shit who was like poking non-stop like outside of Michael I'm assuming Michael was non-stop, but who else was like out of control talking smack I mean you you got Charles Barkley who's doing that all the time, and then everyone gonna always throw up on him. Well, you don't have a championship, and then that's when he have to like tuck his tail between his butt and walk away. But at that time, we still had a lot of basketball left

in our careers, so Charles always had the comeback line that I'm gonna get nines. So he never did. So he was at a, you know what I like about Charles is when he, Shaq, and Kenny go at it, and they do their debate, right, and he says what he says, he never takes it away from himself that he never won. Meaning he doesn't give himself an out.

He always calls himself out for not having won one. And you gotta respect that because sometimes guys, they're asked questions, hey, do you think if your legacy ends and you don't win a championship, you think it's impacted by it? Barclay will say yes, and some guys will say no, I'm still a great basketball player

and all this other stuff. Do you think, do you think somebody, yes. And some guys will say, no, I'm still a great basketball player and all this other stuff. Do you think, do you think somebody, you seem like a nicer guy. You don't seem like a guy that wants to ruffle feathers. But do you think your career is tainted if at the end of your career, you have that disclaimer that you never won a championship? Transapp presents a couple trying to beat the winter blues. We could try hot yoga. Too sweaty.

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maybe reach out to TD Direct Investing. I would say in certain situations, but in Charles Barkley's situation, I would say no. I would say no because he won two gold medals. He helped globalize basketball all over the world. He didn't have to play and but one NBA finals. And he didn't win, but everybody knows Charles Barkley because of his personality, because of him working on TNT. But really, because he was a heck of a basketball player. He was a great player and he

probably deserved to win a title, ran into Michael in the Bulls, but Charles was a heck of a player and he's had a great career as an analyst as well. Oh, there's no question about it. He, on that area, he may be the discussion as the most entertaining one that gets the most eyeballs. He's gotta be up there, right, as what he's done with that area of his career. But I don't know, I think Charles would say, you're right, and he would take that as a compliment,

and he would still say, I wish I would have won one. I think that's what he would have said, but from his standpoint, and again, that's the part when I watch and Shaq says, I got four, you got zero. He's such a great example on that side that he still puts the pressure of not having won one. Chuck.

By the way, for yourself, with the game that you played, opponent, and staying on this Dream Team side, conversation that we're having, you know, for those who are NBA fans, they remember when those guys beat you guys up every season. And Tim Grover is a friend where Tim comes in and, you know, he starts training. You see the videos with Michael and him and all this other stuff, and he learns he has to kind of get stronger to get through the middle because those guys aren't, you know, one of my, I would play the And he learns he has to kind of get stronger to get through the middle because those guys aren't you know one of my I would play the

Footage but we can because it's the NBA footage the one where Michael comes in over Ewing and he scores what I think it's Xavier McDaniel just kind of puts the he looks at him and just kind of you know Celebrates to say he's got the strength now you can't bully him anymore something puts his head against you know I've probably seen that four minute and 40 second clip of them going against the Knicks when he says I asked my dad what should I do take the lead and if they don't follow you know whatever you're at least we'll be able to look back and he gets into Xavier's face right here I freaking have watched this thing a few thousand times and just getting into his eyes to tell him hey we're not afraid of you such a

beautiful thing but for you guys going up against Pistons and then coming back and winning, and then them walking off, we've heard Michael's version, okay, of the reason why Isaiah didn't make it on the Dream Team. Stats, overqualified. Championships, Overqualified. Numbers he put up, I mean Isaiah Thomas I think one season put up 38-8 or 28-8-8.

He put up some numbers that just made no sense. Maybe it was even 32-8-8. Can you put Isaiah Thomas stats? Just type in Isaiah Thomas stats if you could. And go down to, keep going lower. Let's see, let me see what the points per game is, Rob. If you can zoom out a little bit to see points. Go lower, go lower, 28, eight. He had one season that the numbers, and maybe that's Larry Bird that put up the stats like that.

But this guy was a two-time champion. Yeah, I mean, his numbers are based on his scoring and his assists. Oh, insane. You're having 20 points and 10, 11, 12, 13 assists. And that's 30 points. Did you know the story that, what he did that day, not shaking hands,

getting off the field, lamb beer, all of that stuff, you know when Michael, you're like, yeah, he's not gonna be on the, did you know that story behind closed doors? You know, when that happened, that had nothing to do with the dream team. That was in 91. That was our first title. So I don't even think I was on the dream team at that time. I don't even think I was on the dream team at that time. The dream team stuff came up in 92,

or right as that season was starting to get underway. But I'm talking like Isaiah not being there, and you guys are playing, and the guys are talking to one another. Some guys are also kind of like, wow, he's here, but Isaiah's not here. Was it a known fact that Isaiah wasn't on because of Michael? Because the coach was, I mean, who was your coach?

You guys had the coach that... I think it was a known fact that he wasn't on the team. I can't say why he wasn't on the team. I can't even point out, let's say that any individual put him on the team. I can't even point out that say that any individual put him off the team. You know, basketball is a game built on relationships. And that team was put together based on relationships, players that they felt could get along,

players that they felt could play together, and players that they felt could get along, players that they felt could play together, and players that they felt like could contribute in the right way to win a gold medal. And you know what? Dominique Wilkins was left off of that team. And I personally feel as bad as anyone to see a guy who I idolized, who I looked up to, who I guarded, who I defended numerous amount of times, not be a part of that team.

But I didn't want to sacrifice my seat to give it up to him. But with all respect, I felt like he deserved to be on that team as well, not just Isaiah. Yeah, but the biggest thing to me is like, it's the head coach is Chuck Daly. He is Isaiah's coach, right?

I mean, he's the guy that they want together with. You mean to tell me like, either David Stern is not a fan of Isaiah, to say I'm gonna pick Chuck and you're not gonna get in. I mean, that's like a, so to me, it almost has to be a David Stern thing that says you didn't represent something like this, you disrespect the NBA tradition, I'm gonna not put you there

and I'm gonna put your coach and Michael and this will be a taint as the greatest team ever put together you want to part of. So I'm trying to say, because I see David Stern as a boss. I see him as a- I will not let you say that because I don't think

That will be fair David Stern has nothing to do with USA basketball So you don't know what's correct you on that one. No He he gave them the not That they could use NBA players, but I don't think when they come to picking the team, selecting the players. So as an amateur, educate me, who picks the teams? Well it's the people at USA basketball. Who was running the USA basketball at the time? I'm like this is something like for me as a fan. So you're gonna have to do your research there. Yeah. And figure out.

I feel like you, listen, I feel like your. C.M. Newton. USA Basketball 1992. C.M. Newton. C.M. Newton, okay. So that's his name. C.M. Newton was the president of basketball in 1990, he was a basketball player.

During this tenure he was instrumental in decision to allow professional basketball players to come to Summer which led to the creation of basketball in 1998, he was basketball during this tenure, he was instrumental in decision to allow professional basketball players to come this summer, which led to creation of the Dream Team. He served as the assistant coach of 1984 Olympic gold medal, I think Jordan was on that team if I'm not mistaken, and was a major influence in the 92, served on NCAA committees,

coached at Alabama Vanderbilt before coaching, played basketball, football, and baseball at Fort Lauderdale High School, Shout out to Fort Lauderdale. Played on state championship in basketball. So then I gotta, Rob, you gotta do this, because Scotty is now trying to turn us into a research team. Did C.M. Newton influence Isaiah Thomas from not making the dream team.

Maybe even ask Chad GBT, maybe dream team. What is it, AI answering this now? Yes, according to reports, C.M. Newton, who was the head of selection committee in 1992, is considered to have a role in Isaiah not being selected as there were strong indications that Michael Jordan, the key player, would not participate

if Thomas was on the team, and Newton reportedly facilitated that decision by not pushing for Isaiah's inclusion. Michael Jordan, most accounts pulling to Michael Jordan alleged opposition to Isaiah Thomas being on the dream team as a primary reason for his exclusion. How close was CM Newton to David Stern? Were they friends or no?

I would, I don't know. I would have to say there's probably some respect there. Got it. But yeah, that's the guy that put the team together. So, you know, and when people say Michael did this, or they didn't put him on the team because of the Bulls, whatever, CM Newton was a fan of the game, just like you were.

He saw the bad blood between the Bulls and Pistons. So how can he put oil, mix oil and water together? Let me tell you, if you really wanna get back at Isaiah, you pick his coach, you pick Michael, and you have videos circulating all over the world of Chuck and Michael golfing. If you really, really wanna get under someone's skin, I gotta tell you, this C.M. Newton guy

is extremely creative to have thought, obviously he passed away six years ago. May God bless his soul, but if he was that much of a mastermind, by the way, for me, when you're running a company and you're making decisions sometimes, and you know there's bad blood with somebody, let's just say somebody took advantage of another guy

or somebody did something that didn't meet the traditions of a company, you have to set the example and represent the guy that's setting the better example. So I think the right move was made here and if Michael was not happy about it, you want him to go and play in the dream team and you have experience with him from 1984, see I didn't know the connection with him

and Michael from 1984. But listen, by the way, Rob, moving forward, the head of our research team for the NBA is gonna be Scottie Pippen. Don't you know this? That's just moving forward, that's what we're doing. Nowadays, more than ever, the brand you wear reflects and represents who you are.

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The cufflinks are here. New future looks bright. This is my favorite, the green one. Just yesterday somebody placed an order for 100 of these, if you watch the PBD podcast, you got a bunch to choose from, white ones, black ones. If you smoke cigars and you come to our cigar lounge, we have this high quality, lighter cutter

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So talking about, you know, moving forward about talking about, you know, this dream team, Michael, all this stuff, I've noticed, you know, I've watched some of your stuff. I even DM'd you one time and we went back and forth on the exchange, that was between us. But when your book came out, and you came out with the book came out,

I think you said something about how do you wanna be remembered? And you said, I wanna be remembered as the greatest of all time. And this was the unguarded, and this came out November 9, 2021. If I'm not mistaken, the last dance came out during COVID, was it April of 2020? I couldn't even tell you when the last dance came out during COVID. Was it April of 2020?

I couldn't even tell you when the last dance came out. If you wanna type in the last dance, 2020, premiere. There it is, okay, April 19th, 2020, which by the way, the timing of that documentary couldn't have been better than the way it did right after COVID, because we all watch it. Sunday night, two episodes for five weeks straight. So you were glued to the screen, eight o'clock East Coast

till 10 o'clock, and I'd bring the guys to my theater room. We'd sit there, watch that documentary together. It was epic. But when you said that, this is the one part that I'm really curious from your end. You said, I want to be remembered as the greatest of all time. And there was kind of a little bit of the conflict

where you were not happy about the last dance, about the stuff that was said, and maybe not enough being covered with you guys. You saying, I wanna be remembered as the greatest of all time. How much of that was really what you believed in? How much of that was you trying to sell a book? And how much of that was somebody behind closed doors

flattering you saying you didn't get enough credit For what you did during the Chicago's run? I Think it's just me believing in myself in the way that I played the game that I Did it the right way I did it where I Won I played the right way. I did it where I won. I played the right way. My teammates loved the way that I played and people, my peers, respected the way that I played. And I feel like that I got out of the game everything that I put into it, you know, I was a guy that I

Was a walk-on, you know, I was a guy that went to three camps to just to get drafted and End up being the fifth pick. So I feel like the work that I put in Over 15 20 years, you know, before and during my professional career, that I played the game the right way, that I played it where I showed younger players how to be successful and how to enjoy the game. I showed men, women who is not as athletic how to play the game and to play it the right way and to play it from a team standpoint. Yeah, but to say you know the technicalities of this game

and you know during a moment like that like you know the biggest debate is always who's the greatest of all time and last thing comes out and a lot of people well you know Michael didn't highlight you Michael didn't highlight Horace Grant and Horace wasn't too happy about it and you know I remember when Horace was in the league with him and his brother right if I'm not mistaken his brothers name was what Brian I think it was Harvey Harvey Grant right and he played for the Bull If I'm not mistaken, his brother's name was what? Brian, I think it was. Harvey. Harvey Grant, right. And he played for the Bullets, I think.

I don't know what it was called back then. I think it was the Bullets, if I'm not mistaken. Also a big guy, yeah, Harvey Grant. He played at the Blazers, but I think he started off with the Bullets, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, he was a brother. By the way, I thought Horace was great, because I think Horace came to the Lakers as well

one season or two, and he had a pretty good run there as well. So when you're going through it, and you say something like that, I think this is a part where, for someone like you that has been as involved in the NBA drama, positive drama, not negative drama, we're not talking about like drugs and stuff like that, I'm talking positive drama, the NBA,

that makes the NBA exciting, that people wanna talk about. You know the weight behind you saying the greatest of all time. I'm personally I'm wondering, was it you fully believe, because you've made some arguments that sometimes LeBron is a more complete player than Michael. You've had those types of discussions.

Remember, I watch you, you don't watch me. I watch you way more than you watch me. So I've seen you say stuff, you're Scottie Pippen. You're not just a regular play that played in the game. You're Hall of Famer top 50 and arguably when we Put our starting five together Did I want you on my team because I want somebody that plays defense the way you do That's an all-around guy that as a defensive player to you I can only imagine a practice how was guarding Michael every freaking day in practice. What is that gonna do to you? That's a

scary job to have to get better at that, right? But you said the greatest. So, when I see a fall sometimes, or I see something, it's people are my ear. And sometimes the hardest thing to do in life, I saw my parents get a divorce. And when they got a divorce twice and they remarried each other, each family was saying, she doesn't appreciate you enough. He doesn't appreciate you enough. And this flattery is divisive to put a little wedge between you. I know it's not a comfortable thing to probably talk about, but did any of that happen where

someone was saying, come on, Scotty, Michael wouldn't ever want six without you, come on Scotty. And Michael said it himself but from your standpoint. No, that's, you know the reason why I say stuff like that is because when you play the game the way that I played it, you play on both ends, why can't I say that? That's okay, you can say that. So yeah. No one's saying you can't say that. Yeah and say it and mean it. Oh so you do believe that. I'm saying yeah look at my look at

the stats I got six rings too look at my accolades I got defensive player all NBA so playing the game the right way and winning means something to me and it meant a lot to me. I don't have the MVPs but guess what somebody that was with me got it. Would you say... I don't I didn't have the final MVP but hey we won the championship. I get that but that that could be to say you are here is my thing is to me before the 90s before the 90s I had never in my life heard anything about a goat in basketball. Interesting. Really? Never. I had never heard anyone say who's the greatest player in the NBA. Scottie.

Before the 90s. Who was that guy then? If you had heard that, who was that guy? And why is he not being mentioned today? I would say the debate pre-90s, you got to realize, I'm in the Middle East during that time. I understand that, I understand that. The greatest basketball player in Iran was probably a different guy,

but if I were to say the discussion, when I hear that one time that I don't know was NBA was celebrating the top 50 greatest players of all time and Wilt and Michael are in the corner having a heated debate, this is a story I've read about. I don't know if that's true or not, but I've read about it in many different places.

I think- Let me just go back a little farther. Please let's go back to the 80s. Okay Before the 80s. Mm-hmm. Let's go in the Mid 80s. Mm-hmm. Who was the goat? During that era of all time of all time. I Would say there's a strong argument at that time for Wilt being the greatest of all time Because the Lakers hadn't gone on their why? dominant Destroyed his opponents. So why is he not mentioned now? Why is he not?

Oh, I don't even hear about him now. I mentioned well time you're talking about the guy that has he got 13 rings Well, no, he didn't get 13 rings. Russell got, you're talking about Russell. I mean, Russell, yeah. I'm talking Wilt. Russell got the 11 and the two additional ones, yeah, 13 rings, but there's a difference because we can say Ori got seven, right?

Ori's not in the discussion of all time, but Ori was in the face of the team and Ori... So, what's the credentials to be that guy? To be the greatest of all time? Yeah. Okay. That's a great conversation. I'm curious to know what you say. I'm a fan. I'll give you my opinion, but I want to hear from you. I don't think it exists in team sports.

I don't think it exists in team sports. Okay. Um, you don't think it exists in team sports. No. Can I push back? Yes, please. So there's a part of me that agrees with you in certain games, sports, for example, it's very tough for baseball. I don't know if you're a baseball guy or not But in baseball if you say who's the greatest of all time You could say babe because he was a two-way player and he hit the 700 plus It's 60 home runs in a season

you could say Barry bonds, but Barry didn't win the chips and He his career in the playoffs a suspect you could say Willie Mays 660, defensive player. My argument is Willie. When I have the conversation, it's Willie. But then you could say you forgot about all the pitchers. Here's my punch back at that. Did Barry Barnes ever strike anybody out? No.

So what did he do on the other side of the field to make him the greatest? He was a Golden Glove guy. He was a good, but he didn't strike people out. But I think it's a different game in baseball than basketball. I think in basketball, you know, when I think about basketball, okay, so maybe let me play this game in a different way with you. You're an NBA owner, Scotty. We're gonna play a game called NBA Draft Pick.

Yeah. Who's your number one draft pick to put a team together? Which era? Any era. Today to play today who do you pick as your number one draft pick? In today's era player I'll pick Wemby Emma. The young player with San Antonio. So you're all time to pick your number one draft pick,

you pick Wemby one. Wow, who's two? Well, you saying now, so I gotta look at this arrow and say, hey, this kid, y'all, he's got one year. So you think Wemby in this- I'll develop him. You think Wemby in this era does better than Michael would do in this era?

Well, you asked me this arrow, that's why I asked you. Which era you asked me to pick? I'm sorry, do all time. Do all time, then I'm gonna pick my era. I'm gonna pick the team that won six titles. Who's your number one draft pick? Player? I'm gonna pick Michael. Okay, who's your two?

I'm gonna pick me. I agree, who's your three? To put a team that wins, who's your two? I'm gonna pick me. I agree, who's your three? To put a team that wins, who's your three? I'm gonna pick Dennis or Horace Grant, whichever I are who I pick. I see what you're doing. I see, okay, so let's just say Dennis is three. Who's your four? Dome out, give me any bad, I'll take you.

So let me get this straight. So your mindset is you, Michael, and Dennis will beat any team that anybody puts together We did it for three years twice No, I did it with horse the first time but yeah me and Michael. That's right. That's right. That's fair enough I'm sorry. Yeah, so that's why I said Dennis or horse Okay, but if you're and I want to qualify this because to me That that could still be a safe space answer because you're still

Saying that I'm picking us against anybody else right? I'm picking the greatest team against anybody Yeah, but but when you say you're the greatest of all time and the in the goat debate That's still saying that you're ahead of Michael. So your position is still in the game of NBA You're the greatest of all time all around. I'm speaking from a team standpoint. Would you put yourself ahead of Lebron? Would you put yourself ahead of Lebron as a team standpoint? My success as a team is more successful than Lebron. I got six rings. Okay so then if I if I talk to an NBA owner By the way, this is very helpful because this is very helpful because for me as a fan I've followed this so

If I speak from an NBA standpoint owner and I want to find an all-around player to be my number one You think the average owner is gonna pick you or LeBron? I? Don't know Got it. Okay, so that you want individual accolades or you want championships Because I didn't chase mines Okay, and that's an argument that LeBron went to Miami He went back to Cleveland to win with Kyrie and then he went back to LA to win with Anthony Davis. All our, you know, Michael never had teammates like that,

and you only had, you had Michael as a teammate. But in this specific context, Scotty, I think this is very important, because I'm really trying to understand your position. Is specific with you against Michael, you still saying Michael's the greatest of all time but maybe you're saying you're the greatest teammate of all time would that be a better way of qualifying it I would say if you want to say it that

that way but again team sports to me, there's no goat. There's great teams. But as an individual, you got to go to individual sports. Toronto. There's another great city that starts with a T. Tampa, Florida. Fly to Tampa on Porter Airlines to see why it's so tea-rific. On your way there, relax with free beer, wine and snacks, free fast streaming Wi-Fi and no middle seats. You've never flown to Florida like this before, so you'll land in Tampa ready to explore. Visit FlyPorter.com and actually enjoy economy. Yeah, I think, okay, so maybe, well, I mean, the fact that I ask you to draft, who would you pick as number one?

Just by you saying Michael one, you two. This era, but if you ask me to pick a team, NBA, then I'm gonna pick my era and my team. That's the most dominant team that's played in the game. There's no team that's done what the Bulls done. You picked Michael ahead of you though. So that that in essence you're saying Michael's the greatest of all time. He's all in me so he would have been in the game. You're so funny Scotty I am really trying to pick. You want me to pick myself? You are so funny Scotty. You are so

funny. You're so funny. So okay so you you're saying era when be in your era Michael in this era who does better? Wimby in this era and Michael in this era so what no no no when B goes to your era Oh, and then Michael comes to this era who does better? your era and then Michael comes to this era, who does better? Probably Michael. Michael would do better in this era? Okay, so let's go to the next one. LeBron in your era with Michael, Michael in LeBron's era, who does better?

Probably Michael. Okay, and then with Kobe, I'm assuming you're gonna say Michael of Michael and Kobe's era. It's kind of the same. So okay. I would probably still say Michael would do better because remember Michael era, my era early on very physical 85 90 point games. That's right.

Different. That's right. In today's game, we're looking at some games that get to 130, 140. Insane. Boring. And so I think Michael would have strived off of just being free, open. Right. Not having the physicality that he had to play with it night in and night out. Michael in the 70s era. Would he dominate it? I didn't play in the 70s, but I gotta imagine that the game was even just as physical as it was in the 80s.

Less rules, right? It was more fights, guys were, you know, it was a very physical era. And I mean, I think he would have had success in that era, but the game has changed tremendously. And from the ball handling to the steps that the players take. So, you know, when you ask me that

and how successful would he have been in the 70s, I don't know how the officiating would have officiated him. Scottie, when you running for office? Because your answers are so diplomatic. Let me tell you, man, if you're running for office, listen, you said Reverend Jackson, who was it that you said? Somebody's gotta call you and help Scottie campaign

for something here. No, no, no, nothing political. But only reason I'm saying this, I'm teasing you, but your answers are, you know. But I see a lot of changes in the game when I watch it, and I'm sure you, it's probably what turned you off, is that players are now allowed to take three steps going to the basket, you know, and so you, you wonder, you're like,

wow, that's not a traveling, but it's not. Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a different game, it's just not as exciting to me though. Let me ask you this question. You have one of two choices. Which of these two would you rather have? Would you rather have won a ring without Michael, or would you rather have made an additional hundred million dollars while you played in the NBA? Give me that hundred million.

You mean that hundred million? Seriously. I got a gold medal ring without Michael, so that did mean a lot. But yeah, definitely would have loved to play in this era. No hesitation. Would you have rather won that season where you guys got what, 47, 48 wins? You guys went, I think you went to the Eastern Conference Finals, if I'm not mistaken.

Would you have rather won that year or that additional hundred million? Oh, I would have taken that hundred million. How about additional 50 million or that ring? I don't know, maybe I'll take the ring. Interesting, so the number is what matters, the hundred million. The rings, it matters to be known as the best. It matters to be the best. It pays to be at the top. So. Scotty, so let's just say you, let's change this.

I got a weird question for you. I guarantee you're not expecting this question to come to you. You ready? Yes, sir. You ready for this one? Okay. So the great Dominique Wilkins, when he played for the Atlanta Hawks I think he averaged 35 points a game at one season and he had multiple 30 point season games. I think he was the only guy that outscored Michael in scoring if I'm not mistaken. Can you pull up Dominique Wilkins stats? Trust me. I was the one he was given all those numbers to go to a different go to the NBA reference It does a better go to the NBA reference

It does a better job showing the stats than this one. Just go to NBA Yes, that's gonna go lower keep going lower lower lower go to that one right there. That's the one I like the way they break down stats. Okay, zoom in a little bit zoom in a little bit. Thanks Rob Okay points per game. Look at that right there 30.3 was the 85 86 season. That's the year I think Michael was hurt when he aver 30, and he got second in MVP voting, right, that season, but right after, 29, 30.7, and then he loses to Michael every year, except for the year that Michael was,

and then rebounds, look at that, 30 points a game, 7.9 rebounds, 1.8 steals. This guy was a monster. Absolute monster of a guy in field goal. He was at that time 47%. That three point error wasn't a three point error. What was his free throw? Oh shoot, 82%.

Damn, good for you. Okay, so here's a crazy question for you. You ready? The Bulls don't draft you. You get drafted to the Atlanta Hawks. It's you, Dominique, Kevin Wilkins. Michael doesn't pick you up. The Bulls get, can you go to the 87 draft? Go to the 19, what a game we're playing here. 1987 NBA draft. Zoom in. Okay, so where are you picked? You're number five. Okay, so Michael and the team, they pick up Kenny Smith.

Obviously it's not up to him, but say you go to, somehow, somewhere, you end up with the Atlanta Hawks and Kenny Smith goes to the Bulls. How many championships do you guys win at the Hawks and how many championships does Michael win without you going there? I still get my six Stop it Scotty three three. I thought you knew I know the number trust me. I know the number So you'd win six you're saying yes, how many does Michael win?

baby He may be somewhere with LeBron, two, three, somewhere. LeBron's got four now. Oh, LeBron got, I thought he had five. No, he's got four. He won two with Miami, one with Cleveland, one with the Lakers. Now you're throwing me off right now. How many did he win?

I am throwing off. No, no, he won four. He won four. He won four. He's four and six in the finals, if I'm not mistaken. Okay, so, I don't know. I would say, uh, I don't know. I feel like I'm gonna get my six. So you Wilkins, Dominique, say Michael gets Michael,

Horace and Kenny. You're still getting your six. Yeah, they can't stop me. Who gonna stop me then? That is such an interesting conversation that we just went into just because the comments so so okay, so take Dominic out Put you Drexler Put you Drexler and Michael gets let's put Michael and Rob can you pull up top, I'm trying to see who I would pick here. Let's put Michael, top defensive players, NBA 90s. NBA 90s, yeah, 90s NBA.

You got to put NBA though. NBA, yeah, there you go. Can you zoom in a little bit? I don't wanna, look, you're right there. That's why I said Drexler. So, man. NBA defense. Okay, go to 1990 rating right there.

Elijah Robinson, Lambeer, Rodman, Malone. Zoom in a little bit, Rob, if you could. Mark Eaton, so it's always gonna be the centers, but go Mark, Jerome Kersey, Clyde Drexler. Okay, you and Clyde Drexler. I'm trying to get Michael somebody, keep going lower. Is that all? Okay, keep going, keep going, keep going.

Keep going, keep going, keep going, keep going, keep going. Man, see that's the thing. The thing with you is... I was a pretty good fit. Oh, understatement, understatement. But you and Drexler, Michael and Barclay. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Cause Barclay was a BMF.

Oh, he was a beast. You and Drexler, Michael and Barclay. Who would have more chips? I don't know, I and me and Drexler might might get him stop it you I don't know if Michael will be able to keep his thumb on top of Charles really yeah I don't I don't know if he can hold Charles down meaning keeping them coachable yes for a season to win a championship I see what you're saying, okay, so keeping them disciplined to be a good Robin. Yeah Very interesting that you're saying that I still like my chances

This just got very interesting for me Okay, so disciplined Michael and Karl Malone. You and Drexler. Because Karl Malone's disciplined. He scored 32, I think 30. I may give them the edge. You may give them the edge. Karl's a tough matchup.

Okay. This just got very interesting, Scotty. So. Wow, so I learned if you have to choose between 100 million and winning a championship without Michael, you take the 100, but if it's 50, it looks like you did accounting in your mind. You're like 50 million, 50% taxes, Agent 20 ends up to me, I'll take that chip. That was interesting. And then Dominique just got into the conversation today and Drexlin,

a bunch of these other guys. When's the last time you and Michael spoke? Oh, right around the pandemic. Oh, so it's been it's been a minute since you have is that the text exchange when he shot you a text May of 2020 and he said, Hey, Scotty, I heard you're upset. Let me know we have a minute to speak. is that the last time you guys spoke something like that something like something like that did you actually call him like did you guys talk or did you just text him I think we end up speaking briefly did it end up being good the conversation yeah I guess good and good and final that's what it was good and final because of you or because of him I just yeah yeah I don't I I don't want to pick because of who

is just got it good and final. What's more likely to happen? Me going to Carbone in the next five years, Carbone in Miami, I don't know what's your favorite restaurant. Let's say Flagler's in Palm Beach, because it's closer to golf. Is it more likely of me seeing Michael and Barclay

having dinner at Flagler's in Breakers, Palm Beach? Or is it more likely for me to see you and Michael having dinner in the next five, 10 years at Flagler's? I don't know what kind of dream you'd be having. But uh. Ha ha ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha ha. Wow.

What do you think though? Which of those two is more likely to happen? There's a Vegas Oz. Like we're trying to bet some money here on this one. I don't know That's a tough one. I don't spend that much time in Florida So I would probably say maybe highly likely maybe Charles over you. Yeah got it It's it's it's

It's It's... That's wild. And would you say a big part of it is the last dance and how that was portrayed? Would you say that was it? Would you say, because I sit there and I watch, for me, Kobe, I had Kobe I wanted to wear, the late Kobe.

I love Kobe. Kobe and I are six weeks apart, our birthdays and I watched him play. We had a relationship at the tail end of his, not even career, his life. It was a great moment and he said some stuff about Shaq and then Shaq and I had a conversation together years later and it was great and my son till today,

he's met a lot of different people. His favorite athlete, he likes to talk about is Shaq. Shaq is his, Dylan loves Shaq. So, and then when you saw that one interview with Shaq and Kobe, they're sitting across from each other, right, that conversation that took place. And then you saw one with magic and Isaiah I don't know if you remember those interviews that they did like ten years ago some like that eight years ago ten years ago

It was great to see Shaka and Kobe together. It was great to see Isaiah and Magic together Isaiah got emotional and he got up and they hugged each other and you know that whole thing with the two of them Why why is the tension so high with anything related to Michael? You and Michael, Barkley and Michael. Well, I don't know. I mean, I just think that Michael is a very difficult person to deal with.

I've played with him for years so I know that you know when it's time for you to move in your direction then go in your direction don't don't sit there and try to procrastinate or stretch it that the relationship is not where it was or not what it used to be and it's never going to be the same. So why try and make something out of Nothing or try to make something That was never there

Yeah So, yeah. Great, great teammate, but just, we just never were great friends. Never, even when you guys played? No. So when you guys were at the Dream Team, that one clip when Ahmad Rashad asks and says, you know which one I'm talking about,

when Ahmad says, hey Michael, question for you. Three seconds left, fourth quarter, who do you want to get the ball to go shoot, whatever? And he says, me. You know which clip I'm talking about? He says, Ahmad Rashad, and he says, yeah, you? He says, yeah, what kind of a question is that?

And then you guys are getting off the bus, he says, Scott, this is the one right here. Don't play the clip. Actually, you know what, you may be able to play the clip. Yeah, play the clip here Do we have audio or no rocks? I can't Have a couple of it So and then you if you want to pause it and this is I think it's the right Moment while you guys are getting off the bus and saying we're Scotty. We got to go play golf. Where's Scotty?

I think he's having a conversation. Did you guys go off a lot together or no never you guys never golf. No So who was he talking about to go golf with him Rob? Wow, you guys never golf together. No So when you guys play together, how often was it for you guys to have dinner together? I mean, we may have like a pregame meal or something like that, but we would, it's always a big party of people. How many times did just you and Michael have dinner

in Chicago? Chicago has a lot of great scotty stop it scotty stop it never You and michael never had dinner together one-on-one no Never ever. Michael's house just sold, the one in Chicago. Yeah. Right, I think it sold for like 9.6 million

or some number like that if I'm not mistaken. We liked the house, we were interested but possibly doing something with that because the history in it. How often did you guys hang out in that house, go shooting, basketball, talking, mentally getting ready for the playoffs? I never shot basketball there. I actually would go over in the morning when Grover was

training we would train together. Scotty can you get the mic a little bit closer? I'm sorry yeah I was actually I would train with Michael I guess the last three championships that we won we trained together at his house, but other than that, we didn't really put a lot of time in away from basketball. Most of our time was spent, you know, whether we were working out or on the practice floor. That's so wild to me because that feedback was given

sometimes about Kobe. That Kobe wasn't a guy that hung out with his teammates. First run that he had. And then Phil, you know the story about Phil brings Michael in and he says, hey Michael I want you to meet Kobe. And Kobe says, you know I beat you one on one if we played one on one, you know that exchange.

And then Kobe eventually, you can tell him and Pow became best of buddies, brothers, family. You see Pow with Vanessa, with family, it's emotional, all of that stuff. Wow, that's hard to believe Scotty. Wow, that's hard to believe, Scotty. Would you say he was such a... Oh man, that's... Because sometimes when a guy is such an alpha

at the highest level, the idea sometimes to lead your guys is be close enough to influence but far enough to not make them too comfortable with you. The Prince Machiavelli talks about that, a lot of leaders talk about that and it doesn't make sense to the average, you know, it's kind of like what are you talking about? Is it go build a relationship, go build a bond, et cetera, et cetera. Some guys go that route. I wonder how much of that was more from his analysis of, listen, I'm above, I'm the leader,

I'm the head guy here, and he didn't wanna get too close to his guys, especially if you're saying, you guys never had dinner together, Scottie? No. And you never golfed because you weren't a golfer? I think a little bit of both. I'm decent but I didn't really care for the game much when I played. When season ended and it's off season, how often did you guys hang out on off season? Zero. Who was your guy? Was it more Horace you and Horace you and Dennis you and

Probably Armstrong was there was probably more horse who was who was close to Michael on the team Him and BJ were close I mean when he came back to to that one practice when BJ and him speaking and saying hey Come and shoot a little bit. I Don't know about that one, but if you say so well now listen if I'm saying it I'm just saying it because I saw I don't know if I I have the credibility of having been there I just read about it. Yeah, I mean there were times when guys that Were brought in that kind of bonded with Michael, Sam Vinson,

Darrell Walker, but those were veteran players that had been around him probably previously, probably from college, but as far as players that he played with in the 90s, he didn't really bond with players on that team. But I thought he was good friends with Oakley. I thought him and Oakley were very good. Oakley wasn't on that team.

No, no, not now, but Oakley from the beginning era when he was coming up, wasn't Oakley, one of his teammates when they got rid of him, he was upset about it because he liked Oakley and they had a friendship together. Yeah, that's the story that's being was told but I don't know where that relationship is today. Oh okay well I don't know what that relationship is today but I I don't know which story was when one time you guys are playing the

Knicks and he says hey Oak let's go have dinner together. Oh, this was part of his Hall of Fame speech, if I'm not mistaken, when Pat Riley said, was it Pat Riley, was it Pop? Pat didn't want the Knicks players hanging out with us. Well, Pat ran it like a mob boss. Pat wasn't a regular, you know, he was a, and then Michael's like, what do you mean?

You know, no, I can't because I'm with the Knicks so Patrick Lee Orffin the greatest respect you can have for great players to show him none During the 1993 Eastern Conference finals between the Knicks and Chicago Riley's comment was in response to Bulls Complains about officiating go a little bit lower Riley believed that players should be hard-working discipline Riley's throws a work the Knicks with mass 94 find Riley is considered one the greatest NBA figures of all time He won seven champ. Yeah, and he owns the patent on three Pete if I'm not mistaken. Yeah Who Rob can you who was Michael's best friend in the NBA?

I don't know, you got Charles Barkley. While they played. I don't know. By the way, so we can transition to the next story, but I'll tell you how I processed this. And Scotty, whatever I say, please tear it apart. Don't just kind of let me get away with saying this here. I want you to tear it apart and say, you have no clue what you're talking about.

So there's no way a guy does what Michael did. You know, the number of scoring titles, finals MVP. You know, one guy who was the MVP, finals MVP, you know, defensive player of the year, and he's only four people have ever done that, and he's the only guy that's done it four times. You know the one that we all read about and we all see about. In a number of seasons, he played 82 games,

and the phrase about the fact that I'm not gonna miss a game because the father may be the only game, he's bringing his son over to the game, that I'm gonna go out and give my best because I owe it to that father that brought his kid, and being a guy that was a sportsman, the face taking it to different eras, there's something that he said at the end of The Last Dance.

And I'm curious to know how you process this, because I don't know if anybody's asked you of this. Remember at the end when he gets emotional and he steps away and he says, look, if you can't understand me, that we did this and I wanted to win and I wanted to do this and da da da da. And that was the only time that he got emotional

and he got away. How did you process that, that moment when he's looking at that iPad and he's kind of giving a message and he needed a break I didn't see it. You don't watch the last dance. I didn't see that that part of it So you didn't watch all the ten episodes? No after what episode did you stop watching it? Probably I don't know probably Six seven the cool coach episode Probably, I don't know, probably six, seven. The Kool Coach episode.

Yeah, something like that. You saw that episode. Was that the one where you're like, you know what, screw this, I'm done? Yeah, I didn't wanna see it. My kids got turned off on it, so it's kinda turned me off, so I didn't have any interest to watch it anymore. Yeah.

Well, very interesting, very interesting, but to me sometimes it's when a guy that comes in and is the lead dog and got a lot of the thorns that came his way, it's very hard to be a Michael. And I think it's also very hard for anybody to understand Michael, anybody to understand Michael. I think there's only a few guys that can probably expound on that to understand the level of craziness to compete and the drive and the, it's not a, I don't know how many people you can put in that

to compare it to maybe a Brady and a couple other guys that you know That's so interesting I Just learned a lot Scotty. Oh, yeah. Well, I will say he Michael. He was built different Competitive 24-7 Not too many people are built like that I agree willing to compete at any level and at anything So

When you look at these players in today's era Being LeBron, there's really no comparison. When you talk about the level of competitiveness, Michael bunched up all of his competitiveness and sort of exposed it out to the world within 12 to 14 years, we saw his whole resume, his competitiveness, his drive, his will to win, what he's want to do. When someone like LeBron has to spread that out for 20 plus years, it's not the same drive. It's not the same fight, it's not the same hunger.

And so when people try to make those comparisons of those two players, it's like talking to someone in the front seat, in the back seat. They ain't even in the same lane. Did you see, by the back seat. They ain't even in the same lane. Did you see, by the way, what a fricking point you just made, condensing timeframes. You know, I don't know if you saw the stat today, who posted it that said, yes, Lebron may have passed

Michael in the most 30 point games. It'll take another 32 years to pass Michael in 40 point games, right? Yeah, it's like, it's, it's not even worth talking about the two of them when you ask Who's better LeBron or Michael? You can't ask me who's the goat between LeBron and Michael neither one of them are goats They both won differently

You can't put them at the top of the pinnacle. Magic Johnson to me is a bigger goat than anybody because of how he led, how he brought a whole team, how when the greatest scorer in the game, Kareem, was not there and him as a rookie steps in and plays a position that no one even knew he could play. That's transcending what you can do as a player. Yeah, that's why when you ask the question, how do you define it for GOAT, your definition is very different You know to me the the definition of comparing a LeBron versus a Michael You know LeBron had a weight LeBron had a Bosch LeBron had a Kyrie LeBron had a

Anthony Davis and Michael had you It's a different game too. It's a different game too? I think for me when I... LeBron got lanes every night. When we played there were no lanes. Wasn't nothing but hardwood floor. If you go to the basket you're gonna hit the wood There's no comparison there's the basketball in the late 80s until the early 90s physical hard nose no layups

earn it from the free throw line Today's game it's about three-point shooting. It's about driving it to the basket finishing Did you hear me say aren't it at the free throw line that doesn't even exist in the day's game It's just about shooting the ball shooting the ball You said one time you when you had a conversation with Michael about you when he went to the Rockets and Barkley was a teammate and he said something to you says I probably should have listened to Michael a year ago when he said that Charles will never win a champion because he doesn't show any

dedication is a very selfish guy then he said all this stuff to you right that's my reason for wanting to get away from playing with him because he just doesn't show the dedication. You know, those are tough words to be said from Michael to a friend that is Charles. Looking back now and having the wisdom that you have today, you had a lot of, everybody wanted you.

You could have gone anywhere. Anybody and everybody wanted you. What would have been a different situation what what do you look at where you said it's well I'm gonna be honest that my my options weren't that great really because of the way that the CBA got it was set up got it and who did you have as options? Well I had Phoenix but it was for less money. Got it. I think Philadelphia didn't want to go play in a cold climate. Who did Philly have at that time? Was it AI? Was it still AI? Was it? Yeah it was AI. Yeah. Because it was tail end so it would have been AI.

They had, well he had the Kimba Motsombo I think, I don't know if he had a left already. I showed no interest. It was, I definitely wanted to be in a warm climate. And I saw Houston as an opportunity for me really to play with two veteran guys and that we could, you know, make something happen real quick. And it was the lockout season, but it was definitely a short lived.

In fact, Charles started out working out with me and he was all dedicated and working out me and him was all dedicated and working out me and him with Grover, I took Grover down there and he lasted about a month. Was it because what, it's just a little too much with Grover? No, it wasn't too much for Grover, it was too much for him. No, that's what I'm saying, to go with Grover

is a little too much for Charles. Well yeah, he wanted to enjoy his nightlife and our workouts were predicated on getting up in the morning and training before practice. Yeah, I mean, I can see that. And, you know, when the business pays you a lot of money and you have the ability to go party, sometimes it's hard to say,

I'm gonna get up and go get that ring. And, you know, for everybody, you have the ability to go party, sometimes it's hard to say I wanna get up and go get that ring. And you know, for everybody, by the way, who's your favorite teammate you ever had? And who was your best teammate you ever had? Wow. Wow. Can I give them both to Michael?

I mean, I can't knock him and say he was a bad teammate. I can't knock him and say he wasn't my favorite. I mean, we had a lot of success, so I would say he'd probably fit both of those categories. Scotty, you're interesting, buddy. I gotta tell you, who's your second favorite? I mean, I love playing with Horace Grant. I love playing with Horace Grant. I love playing with Dennis.

And I would probably say, Horace was probably my favorite at first because we got drafted together. We went to the Bulls together. We won our first three championships together, but he ended up leaving. So the bond with Michael became better the the bond

with Michael Became better and just on the court really not Not off the court, but more dinners with Horace than Michael. That's for sure. Yeah. Yeah, is that cat story true, by the way? What's the cat story? I gotta hear this whose cat got sick or someone's cat died? Oh, no, no, no. What does that kid tell me? That's not a true story.

Scotty, be honest here because this cat's... That was like a Horace Grant sort of... I'm skipping practice kind of... By the way, there's probably only gonna be three people listening to this story with the cat. But what's the cat story? Well, Horace Grant would always skip practice. Why would he skip practice? Because cat got sick.

It was a joke though. Yeah. Did he actually have a cat? No. So who actually believed it? Was it like, is it a joke or was he seriously saying my cat's sick? It was actually like a joke,

but because, you know, NBA players, if you call in and say you're sick, the team can't do nothing but take your word, right? So Horace would always, not always, but he'll call in occasionally and say he was sick. And so we had this older coach, Coach Johnny Bach. He was our defensive coach. So he always would say, well, his cat got sick. Well, and it stuck. Yeah. But in

reality, he never got sick to say because of his cat. No, it was a joke that the coach made. Well, listen, that coach, that one little joke is still here. It's still late. 40 years later. Got to give him credit., final stuff before we wrap up here. In regards to Zion, okay? In regards to some of these guys that are coming in, they're getting paid, what they're getting paid. I remember Michael said something about like, some of these guys are getting paid

without having to earn it. I don't know when this was, he said. It could have been 20 years ago or 15 years ago. He said it a while back. When you look at a Zion, have you ever spoken to him one on one and tried to coach him and give him feedback or no? Have you guys?

No. So, okay, so if Zion is listening, I mean, so many people give him feedback of what to do. This is a guy, if I'm not mistaken, he's got a 43-inch vertical leap. I don't know what the number is, Rob. Can you pull up Zion's vertical leap? I've seen 41, I've seen 43 43 I've seen 46. Okay, so 45 and 46 and a half vertical leap. Okay. I don't know what the number is, but he's got a big

vertical leap The weight the ripping the shoes in college when he's playing is like, you know and Paul George jumping in and you know, you remember this this guy's amount of power that he has a Guy like Zion Williamson who's right now I think only 24 years old do you foresee him changing and being able to have a long-standing career performing Hall of Fame type of guy or you don't see that happening? No I don't see it happening I don't know how much longer he's he be on the court. I mean, I think that the organization has been over backwards to maintain some professionalism

to the fact that this kid is not even on the court. He's not even working to be a professional basketball player. It's almost like when you watch him, you're seeing a kid sitting on a college bench and still hasn't found what's gonna be fruitful for him in life, whether it's his diet, putting the right people around you, getting yourself ready, staying healthy.

I don't know what to say about his career thus far because all indications shows me that if there's a lockout, if there's any injuries major to him, it's gonna take him out. If there's a lockout, it's gonna take him out because what, lack of discipline, eating, putting on weight, getting to 300 pounds?

He hasn't shown that he's disciplined enough to take care of himself physically yet. Is he savable? Oh, he's definitely savable. There's a lot of GMs out there watching and hoping that New Orleans sort of dropped the ball. I mean, there's organizations out there would love to embrace this kid and really get him

to where he can be a great NBA player because I think putting Him in a position where he is sort of a veteran. I mean I look well The kid that went to Duke is the oldest player on their team Well, he's probably three or four years older than Zion so veteran leadership around this kid may help him and to help jumpstart his career in a sense that it's just as important for him off the

court to work on himself as it is on the court. Who do you think would put him in his place where he would have a level of fear and respect for that person? Either gonna make him or break him. Somebody like that. But I like Pat Riley in the Miami Heat organization. Well you saw how much he Pat got this week when Jimmy saying he wants to leave and somebody came out. I don't know who came out and criticized Pat saying you're just too much, you're always pushing people out. Who said that about Pat? Somebody criticized him hardcore and he said,

maybe you're right, maybe it is time. Who criticized him? I don't know who said that about Pat, but I did see where he kinda took the blame and pointed it back at himself and said, maybe I am, but. Oh, Paul Pierce it it was I saw Paul Pierce Yeah, if you can pull it up Rob Paul Pierce slammed Riley for disrespecting Butler the six-time All-Star Once I get whatever I get out of you. You can get the f out of your pierced. That's what Pat Riley's mentality is

Yeah, and then Pat Riley said maybe he's right, but I don't know if I agree with that. I don't know if I agree with that I don't know if I agree with that because I have a hard time with that mentality with pure saying something like that look he can say whatever he wants he scored 26,000 career points he's a legend and a champion when they won but well I don't want to say it the way Paul Pierce said it but it's been known for many years that the Miami Heat does exactly what Paul Pierce said. Let's say he does. Let's say he does. Okay who else can shape up them? So why did LeBron, Duane and Bosch go there? Why did so many people want it? Well they left. No I get that but they want championships. Yeah well when you're young you can work for Pat Riley but as you get older like a Jimmy Butler his system will break you down.

I can see that and by the way you know what you know what that could tell me as well look Nick Saban wasn't a good NFL coach but he went and became the greatest college football coach of all time. Yeah but I think you have to look at the game differently from a whole perspective. What do you mean by that? These players ain't about winning championships no more. They're about running the business. Got it.

Okay, so Jimmy Baller knows that his body is his business. And if you want to continue to use my service, then pay me. Take care of my business. And if you want to continue to use my service, then take care of my business. What a bad way of looking at it for the fan. What a bad way of looking at it for the fan. I hate to say that the fans have to see it that way, but the players got to maximize what they can get in such a small window.

Interesting you're saying that. I mean, I can bring up some stats, maximize earnings. So Scotty, when you played, the median NBA salary in 93, 94 season was $1.3 million. Well. That was a median salary, $1.3 million, right? These guys, right now it's $5.3 million hours right these guys Right now it's five point five seven million dollars the average salary today in the NBA at that time The average salary was one point seven five million the average salary today in the NBA is eleven point one two four million hours

That's almost six X. That's not seven X well, I mean, in all fairness, I'm always be on the player's side. I understand that. So, you ought to be. I definitely think that, you know, from a player standpoint, I've been in this situation,

I've been in the game, that you gotta maximize your value. You're not gonna stay that valuable forever. So Jimmy Baller value is up right now in Two to three years or whatever It may not be up. So I Respect him speaking. This is actually nothing to do for me with Jimmy. I'm actually Jimmy go do what Jimmy wants to do I'm not this is not a Jimmy conversation to me

This is a Paul conversation because watch what you said. When I ask you who do you think can shape up Zion, you said Riley. I said Paul Riley's the way they do it but I also say it. Young. He's gonna make him or break him. Yeah.

Well, listen, my opinion, you ain't gonna find too many Riley's nowadays. You're just not. And for me to- No, but there's not gonna be that type of management in the game much longer. Unfortunately. Because players are now have a lot more balance.

now have a lot more balance. They have a lot more rights in the game in terms of not playing with injuries, not playing back to backs. So. To me, you know what that says? Try that mindset in the NFL, it won't work. Good luck with that mindset in the NFL. It won't work. Good luck with that mindset in the NFL. And in the NFL, these guys are, you know,

you're talking about life ending risk on the line the way you play. Neck, paralyze, all this other stuff, okay? You know, you don't hear stuff like that. The worst thing I've seen in the NBA last 30 years was Paul George Remember that hole when he came down on the leg and it broke? That was the Olympics. That was yeah I know he was he was with the Pacers when that happened. I don't think was the Olympics. It was uh, Can you pull up when he did that? I thought he was uh, I don't know which one it is

It's it's right there. It's the third third line second picture third line third right there That's him right there. Yeah, when he broke the leg it literally split in half, right? I don't know. I think that's a part of why I'm It's it's it's unattractive to watch this game. Don't get me wrong a Person's gonna come up like George. Carl. That was the the the Olympics. Oh Was it the only maybe you're right? Maybe it was the Olympics based on what you Kral. That was the Olympics though. Was it the Olympics? Maybe you're right, maybe it was the Olympics.

Based on what you're, yeah it was the Olympics. You're right, it was the Olympics. No, no, you're right about this one. You were wrong about LeBron winning only two, he won four, but you're right about this one. So to me, I think that's what's unattractive about the NBA. I think the players are so protected and, you know, it's like oh my god Don't offend the players

That's what's hurt the game. No, I Yeah, because the priority is not fans first You forget who like for example Any anybody that becomes? too wealthy in business, the moment I forget that we don't have this business with our guys that are working as hard as they're working, or the viewers that are watching, and you start thinking you're pompous

and everything's around you, what are you talking about? You have nothing without the fans. If you don't have the fans, who pays you? Fans, the guy that created the game and then fans showed up and the fans kept supporting and that cost to get more Eyeballs and sponsorship and that was able to get guys from getting paid 80 grand a year 20 grand a year to making 80 grand Sometimes a minute you play for some players, right?

this game is a very very different game today and But what's this one Rob? This is Colin Cowhart saying what? Kind of back to what you were talking about, being detached from the regular people, being detached from the fans and the effect it's had. What do you think about Colin by the way? Oh I fucking love him. Really?

Play this clip Rob? Goodell has navigated a multitude of cultural changes. Uh, that CTE issue that that was bad, uh, and overlooked for a long time by a previous commissioner or two. And here he's made the PAT interesting. He tinkers, he evolves and the NBA. Meanwhile, ratings are down 48 eight percent in the last twelve years and they have fallen off a cliff this year

and adam silvers solution is let's make the courts brighter uh... and i like the nba but the all-star game is now embarrassing and i think load management is a shame on the league it is a it is a really bad look for a family of four to go to a game and Yannis doesn't play or MB doesn't play. I'm sorry. Go ask the Democrats.

Be warned. Once you detach from regular people in America, you will pay a price. What do you think? That's true fact. I mean, fans are students of the game as well. They're not just fans, you know. They know the game. And so you're seeing players over there that you work hard all week to earn money

and to bring your family out for a family evening and now that guy sitting over there in sweats that's not even a team uniform and it's like really is this what I save my 800 bucks for to come see this guy stand on the sideline. So, yeah, he's truly right, I mean, but that's the direction of where the game is. You cannot make players play. And to be honest, this will continue to go on.

Oh, I agree. It's not gonna stop. I agree with you. Players are now at the point where they are saying, I'm gonna play 50 games. Wow. And owners can't say shit. And you're gonna pay me for 82?

That is unfrickin' believable, Scotty. That's why I would never own an NBA team. I got a call on the opportunity to be a minority owner of two NBA teams. And a guy called me for MLB, and a guy called me for the Raiders. When this guy called me, he's a well-known guy that sells teams.

And I was interested in the Raiders. But to me, it's between that or the Yankees, I'm gonna go Yankees, so I won Yankees. I bought two rounds of ownership. Anybody that sells, I was interested. And when the NBA came about, I had zero interest because I don't believe in the product. I think they've destroyed the product where who would want,

like even a Mark Cuban as a business, astute businessman sold. By the way, don't get me wrong, the NBA is gonna keep getting paid Why because they're winning internationally the eyeballs are increasing. They're gonna keep making money The product is not going away guys are gonna start making 80 100 million dollars here the next five to ten years They're gonna get paid. So is that 48% viewership being down not hurting them here. That's here because they can go Fugitive being down not hurting them here. That's here because they can go

Internationally and still be able to sell marketers and say hey look how many eyeballs were getting here, but to me Yeah, I Yeah, I have a hard time with that I have a hard time when you forget fans customers fans Customers we go to dinner I have a hard time with that. I have a hard time when you forget fans, customers, fans, customers. We go to dinner and we go to restaurants. If my kids don't say thank you, please, what makes you think that because we have an okay lifestyle that we get to think, no, no, that person's serving us.

We have to be respectful to this person. We have to tip them properly. We have to take respectful to this person. We have to tip them properly. We have to take care of these folks. It gives me the MBA of thinking you're above the fans. It's unattractive. And by the way, that's me. By the way, it's coming from a place of ask me stuff on stats from 1992,

2010, 2015. I'm gonna be able to get you some stats and numbers because I followed this game so closely. But. Yeah, well, it's truly a different game. The players are a lot more sensitive in a sense that they don't want any reaction with the fans. They don't want the fans having any type of camaraderie with them at all. They always feel that fans are a threat.

And... they have sort of, um, to me... they have separated themselves. It's the players and it's the fans. If you say something to me, it have separated themself. It's the players and it's the fans. If you say something to me, it better be fucking nice or I'm gonna have you removed from the arena. How do you feel about that? I think it's bad.

I think it's bad that players cannot take criticism. I think it's, I used to love going in the stands and having people call me out of my name. Yeah, didn't you call out what's his name when you dunked on Ewing and you shoved him, and who was on the sideline? Spike. Spike, yeah. Yeah, so I embrace the fans being a part of,

getting at me, trying to aggravate me. Now, I don't see that. I don't see how you can aggravate me. Now, I don't see that, you know, I don't see how you can aggravate me. Whose fault is that? Is that Adam Silver that accepts it? Because that comes from the top. Like kids can cry and say anything, but father and mother can say, no, toughen up. I can't say where that comes from, but I can say that the game misses that. They miss that irritating fan. They miss that heckler that was irritating you

and caused you to miss your free throws. Those are things that were a part of a game when I played. But by the way, just out of curiosity, who were some of the toughest guys? Like remember that one time Vernon Maxwell and Ori, Vernon ran up to like the 16th row that one game, I don't know if you remember that or not. Do you remember that?

I don't remember Vernon, but Vernon was one of the toughest guys. He's a very close friend of mine. I said, yeah, he was a tough guy. But I mean, that was a lot of guys played in the league and that, you know. I'm talking like street tough, like tough tough. Yeah, I mean, but street tough can't go up in the stands.

You know what I'm saying? We still have to be professional. I fully agree. You know, but there are guys who've gotten out of order and out of a hand, but you know the commissioner has always been able to Take care of that and keep things in in order, but I think now The fans are so afraid That they can't even

Call a player out in any bad way that stop it It's looked at as a threat. I say it comes from LeBron down to the league. I know you can't say that, you know, it's not something that, you know, you're going to be seen as an analyst and some of the, Barclay will say it, some of these guys will say it, but I think it comes from the top, down. And I don't think it's an exciting, by the way, I saw a Vernon Maxwell the other day called out a former player, Vincent Askew. I haven't heard that name in a long time. I saw that on the ground. He said he called me for 10 grand,

don't give him the money, never pays back or whatever. Who were some of the tough guys that the players knew they're tough but nobody talked about it? That you played against. Oakley, was he one of them? Yeah, I guess Oakley, he's one of the tough guys. But you know what?

That era guys kind of faded in the 90s, you know? The Oakleys, the Buck Williams, you know, Buddha, James Edward, who I played with. James Edward. You know, guys that would just give hard files. Those were guys that were considered tough guys. Guys that when you came in the lane, you gonna have to earn it.

Who did we think was tough but wasn't tough? Like as a fan, we're like, you guys thought he was tough, he wasn't tough. Are you a New York Knicks fan? No, I'm just kidding. I'm not. Who were you gonna say? No, I'm just kidding.

No, I, you know. Listen, if you said Knicks, there's three names I think about. So were you calling someone out with the Knicks? Were you calling Mason? Were you calling Xavier? No, they were all tough. Okay.

They were all tough guys, but New York thought that they were the toughest team on the block back in the 90s. Plus in the early 90s, we had some great battles with those guys. The story you hear about Michael Punch and Steve Kerr, did you see Michael fighting a lot of people or was that the only instance?

I didn't see him fight anyone. Okay, but the Steve Kerr, you're so funny. Is that like the? I didn't see it. Oh, you didn't see the one with Steve? I must have mispracticed that day. You're joking right now, right? Is that what you, is that the code of keeping it?

No, my cat was sick. Oh man, I think I get it. No, but that's cool. And by the way, last one with Wimby. You think Wimby's gonna go down as a, is he gonna end up being like, okay, he seems scary. Yeah, I do think he's gonna go down as one of the great ones. I mean, from a statistical standpoint, it's just like I said, when I saw Lebron come in the game, these guys are gonna dominate the game statistically because of how the rules have been being changed. Like, I mean, this guy can shoot a three pointer

whenever he get ready. It's ridiculous from like. That's the crazy part about it. It's like you can't even contest his shot. You know, we think that Steph Curry got the freedom to dribble and shoot the ball, but now you're talking about a guy that's seven foot six. And you know, with unbelievable range,

you know, just watching him all the night step across half court pull up a three you know that's that's what we're we're gonna be seeing in the in the next ten years of the game is a lot more shooting from a lot bigger guys which Which of these records is most likely to be broken? Quadruple double, right? I think Hakeem, David, I think Alvin Robertson was the weird guy on the list that I wouldn't have expected him to be on the list.

Alvin's the one that got into a first fight with Shaq. I don't expect that record to be broken. No one's gonna do a quadruple double? Nah. So for sure you don't think anyone like. Because I think Hakeem may have got it because of steals and blocks. Okay, yeah. I don't see Wimby getting the steals. So okay, got it. So you're okay. So that's fully out. So you don't think I don't see him.

Wimby like Hakeem, if you look at the stats, he's probably the top 10 in steals throughout the league. So it wasn't an accident that he got a quadruple double. By the way, was he feared? Was he as tough as I read about? Like was he, would he say stuff to you? Like, I'm gonna kill you? Or was he like, was he that kind of a guy? He was just tough, physical guy, had great hands.

You know, he's like, you couldn't put the ball around him. You know, he was so good with his feet, his hands. So having those soccer skills, he's always was at the ball. Oh wow. And had great hands in terms of how to knock it away. Got it. I saw a clip the other day with David Robinson. I wonder how tough he was because I remember when

one time I ended the season, him and Shaq were going for the scoring title. I think he scored 72 points against the Clippers, some number like that. Shaq had 58 the last game of the season. He had 72 and I don't know who ended up winning the scoring title. I think it could have been him that won it.

100 point game. Will anybody break down? Yes. 100 point game will anybody break down Yes Yes, what kind of a player will break it more like a Steph Curry or more like a shack more like really Do you collect big you collect cards? No, I don't collect cars, but I think For that to happen today But I think for that to happen today Because I think isn't the court bigger than what it was from will score 100 Oh, I wouldn't know because I don't think it was a three-point shots for no for sure

They didn't have three point shots that I know but I think that Wimby would be the guy if it could happen because Of his size he can shorten up the court. His size, his range. He's the guy. Well, anybody beating the six championships undefeated, 6-0? I don't think so. Okay. All right. Well Scotty I've really enjoyed this conversation with you. I've had a great time here. It's been a an awesome time

Yeah, and and some of your answers I have to tell you like I was not expecting some of those answers but it was fun from a fan standpoint I Want to fall in love with the game again, but I fell in love with the game of when you played That's the game when I came here November 28 1990 The reason why my team became the Lakers is because you guys beat him that year 1990 1991 season That was the year where that famous picture of magic and you know Michael he's defending him that one picture or you know the Sam Perkins that whole era.

It was all of the magic and Michael. Yeah that's not the picture there's a famous picture of them two guarding each other. That's it there. That's the one you got it that's the one It was just the era and you guys broke my heart because I was in LA, I said, I'm gonna be a Laker for life. And I rooted for the Lakers up until LeBron came to the Lakers.

That's me because to me. It's kind of funny you say that. Tell me why. I would think that would make you more of a Laker fan, but you're not a guy that is sort of jumping on the bandwagon championship. You believe in the journey and how you become a real Laker. I was a Steinbrenner guy and not Steinbrenner, a Jerry Busk guy and a Steinbrenner. I love owners that want to win so bad that they're willing to do anything.

And Jerry Buss won 10 in 33 years. Maybe the greatest owner of all time, by the way, Jerry Buss. And the relationship he had with the players and what he did. But yeah, but you know, as a fan, you know, watching you over the years and now having a conversation, this was a treat.

I appreciate you for coming out. Rob, Gang, if you enjoyed it, I want you to do me a favor and support Scotty by going and buying his book and reading the story from him. Rob, put the link below for Scotty. And then if anything Scotty said, you were kinda like, what's going on here?

By the way, you know, one thing we haven't even asked that some of you guys probably wondering is, you said you made Satoshi, and you're not supposed to talk about it on Twitter and Bitcoin and all this stuff. What is that all about, like this? Well, I said I had a dream, but you know, I'm just speaking

to my good friend Michael Saylor. He said, we don't talk about Satoshi. He said, we don't talk about Satoshi. He said, we don't talk about Satoshi. Learning from my mentor, I'mma take what he said as some good advice. Your mentor's worth around 10 billion dollars today. Yes. He's doing okay for himself.

He's doing great. Were you with him New Year's Eve? No, I didn't make it down for New Year's Eve, but I was planning to come down for the vote party, but it kept getting postponed. Well, my man, Scotty, appreciate you for coming out. This was fantastic. Thank you for the pleasure to have me.

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