PBD Podcast - Former Governor of Illinois: Rod Blagojevich | PBD Podcast | EP 127

Episode Date: February 21, 2022

In this episode, Patrick Bet-David is joined by Adam Sosnick and the 40th governor of Illinois, Rod Blagojevich to discuss Barrack Obama, Rod's upbringing, AOC, Ukraine and Russia, plus much more... TOPICS Who Is Rod Blagojevich? Why there is such a Love/Hate relationship with Rod Blagojevich  Who wanted to convict Rod Blagojevich What would rod have done differently Why did Barack Obama throw Rod Blagojevich under the bus Was Rod Blagojevich jealous of Barack Obama? The recording with Rahm Emmanuel  Is Illinois more corrupt than other states? How Rod Blagojevich's father-in-law got him arrested  Did Rod Blagojevich want to run for president Rod Blagojevich is fighting to run for office again Are Democrats afraid of Rod Blagojevich?  How the right embraced the 'false claim' Hillary spied on Trump Are there any good "up and coming" politicians?  Character Assassination AOC Trudeau and Canada Ukraine/Russia Speed round Rod Blagojevich is an American former politician, political commentator, and convicted felon who served as the 40th governor of Illinois from 2003 to 2009, when he was impeached following charges of public corruption for which he was later sentenced to federal prison. A member of the Democratic Party, Blagojevich previously worked in both the state and federal legislatures. He served as an Illinois state representative from 1993 to 1997, and the U.S. representative from Illinois's 5th district from 1997 to 2003. Follow Rod Blagojevich on Twitter here: https://bit.ly/3gSzlTB Instagram: https://bit.ly/3LNAxpw You can check out his podcast "Lightning Rod Today" here: https://bit.ly/3h4Xjeq Text: PODCAST to 310.340.1132 to get added to the distribution list Connect with Patrick on social media: https://linktr.ee/patrickbetdavid Adam Sosnick: https://bit.ly/2PqllTj To reach the Valuetainment team you can email: [e-mail]   Check out PBD's official website here: https://bit.ly/32tvEjH --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/pbdpodcast/support

We're live. Oh, we're live. Well, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no Rod Blagojevich, who also ended up going to, out of the 24 counts, one of them you were found guilty and you ended up going to jail, I think for 168 months, but you only served eight of it because you were part and by President Trump and we'll get into that as well. And a lot's changed from then to now, but it's good to have you on the podcast. Glad we were able to pull this off. Well, thanks very much for having me. Appreciate you guys. And congratulations and your success. Welcome to America, you're the American dream.

In my next life, I want to be you. I don't want to be me. I know it's crazy. And by the way, on this podcast, you can be free to curse. You don't have to worry about it. So I saw your video, the documentary starts off saying, there's gonna be be careful. There's, you know, what kind of language?

They say excessive use of a foul language. And then they give you to disclaimer and then he gives it to you to start off the documentary. Last night, I'm up. These guys, he tells me about the documentary. I'm like, I'm gonna try to watch it. So last night, Dinkin comes over. We're talking about the next book

and we had an hour and a half session. Then we watch all-star game at Fort Corde. Because I don't miss the Fort Corde. Sick game, Fort Corde. The way he finished it was sick. Michael Jordan there, all that stuff. And then I had to sit there and watch you documentary till 1.30 in the morning.

And then I was with my trainer this morning at 6 o'clock. So I have eight hours of sleep, okay? Condensed in four hours. This is what I did. But for some people that don't know you from Yugoslavia, your family, your father, I believe it's from Yugoslavia, and I was a, when I was at Germany at a refugee camp, one of the families we got very close to were Yugoslavia.

His name was Miodrag. Miodrag, and the wife's name was Anamaria, and the daughter's name is Anamaria, they're in Canada now, but I remember spending time with them. We had a lot of things in common escape in the kind of life that we had, but for folks who don't know who you are, if you don't mind taking a moment and sharing your story with them That'd be great sure

Well, thank you. First of all, let me say my dad spent three years in a refugee camp after World War Two waiting for the United States Congress that one day his youngest son that be me passed a law called the Displace Person's Act Which allowed my father millions of others like him with his long and harder pronounced last names a chance to come to America So my late father had something come with you because you spent a couple of years, right? Mm-hmm. I have to determine it. Look, it in so many ways in fact it was my life was the American dream my mother and father were working people my mom was American born If she'd have come from the old country like my dad I think my first name would have been as harder pronounces my last name.

I'd have never been the governor of Illinois, but then again, I'd have never been inmate number 40892424. But my life's been the American dream, because of the success that I was fortunate to have because so many people helped me. Then it was the Kafka's nightmare they came after it. When I was sent to prison and was compelled to shelter in place for eight years

for politics and not for crimes, what the Wall Street Journal called practicing politics. But you know, the values that have made you so successful, Patrick, the values of my mother and father instilled in me that you're fortunate and lucky to live in a great country like this, a land of opportunity, it's supposed to be a land of freedom. It's a fragile gift that we have that we shouldn't take for granted. I've learned some hard lessons about that. But it's a place where if you dream, you can reach those those dreams if you're prepared to work hard to make those dreams real.

I've been working since I was nine years old, shining shoes, and I'm still working. And when I was in prison, it's funny because I was earning about $5.25 a month in prison. I earned more money as a nine-year-old, shining shoes in Chicago than I made as a former governor in my early 60s. And a lawyer. And a lawyer. And all the rest. So, you know, I've been up. China's shoes in Chicago, then I made as a former governor in my early 60s. And a lawyer. And a lawyer and all the rest. So, you know, I've been up, I've been down, but there's an old Irish proverb that says, even God can't make two mountains without a valley in between.

So I'm climbing back up, and it's fun, as you know, the journey is even more fun than the destination. So what's next for you? What do you mean? I watch your documentary, and here's one of the things I notice about you. It didn't matter when it was, whether it's you walking out and you about to go to jail, you're shaking cans. Hey, you're hugging this lady and your wife's to your left

and you're hugging it, you're kissing on the cheek and you're hugging the other lady. You're always in campaign mode. Have you always been this guy that's shaking cans, building relationships? Have you always been that guy? I don't, building relationships? Have you always been that guy? You know, I don't know. I guess so.

I don't know. Maybe yes, maybe no. When I was shining shoes, I had no one I was a kid. In order to get the tips, you got to hustle, right? You got to get out there and smooth a little bit and try to do a good job of shining shoes and try to keep the black shoe polish off the white socks of the guy who's an engineer.

Shouldn't be wearing white socks of black shoes, right? They should fire that guy. Or maybe it's a fan of Jerry Lewis. I think Jerry Lewis used to do something like that. He used to wear white socks with black shoes. Right, that's right, those old movies. There you go. But, you know, I guess so, you know,

I wasn't exactly great in school. I went to public school in Chicago. I wasn't set the world on fire school. Who were you in high school? Like if we were in high school together, who was, who was, if I asked when your class mates that was in high school with you, 10th grade, 11th grade, who was rocked?

Somebody who didn't do so good in physics and got a DNA algebra, which was a classic case of great inflation. You know, I played on the high school basketball team of basketball and gloves in Chicago. First time, I remember my name in the newspaper. Chicago Tribune was the golden gloves when I was 17, 18 years old. I grew up a real city life and a big city like Chicago. But I was lucky to have great parents that, you know,

worked hard and sacrificed so I can go to college. And it was them, their hard work and sacrifice that gave me a chance to get up high in politics. Now, as I said, looking back, it's a mixed blessing in view of what's happened, but I do believe and I had 2,896 days to think when I was sheltering in place in prison. And I do believe God is a plan for all of us. And I think as bad as that was, as is written in Genesis, what they meant for evil, God meant for good.

And I feel like there's some service that I can still provide, as well as working hard to build a better life for my daughters and my wife. Genesis, what they meant for evil, God meant for good. And I feel like there's some service that I can still provide, as well as working hard to build a better life for my daughters and my wife. You know, I watched your story. And I watched all the clips, read all the stories that's out there. So I've seen the good bad and the ugly about you.

And I see the love and hate relationship. There are those who hate you. And I called some friends, and these are guys that are in business who are from Chicago. And I said, tell me what you think about this guy. And they said, well, let me tell you who he is. You know, there are people here that like him. There are people here that think he's innocent. There are people here that think he's guilty. But it was a mixture. It wasn't just all good and all bad. Some people that I thought were going to be

saying nothing but bad things about you were like, no, this guy was actually trying to do some stuff, but he got caught doing what everybody else does and he went to jail for those, the other guys didn't. And some of the guys I talked to, they just said, Pat, don't let him fool you. He's a charmer, charismatic, this, this, that. You have to understand where he's at,

he's a very good persuader. So why this love hate relationship with you well isn't that the case when you take strong positions that i mean with all to respect if if you were not those things that means you didn't stand for anything right franklin Roosevelt said i you've had a means good that means you stood for something and uh...

you know i think as governor i was the first democrat governor twenty six years elected no one but i didn't want to raise taxes on the people. My party loves to raise taxes on regular people. We claim to be the party of the little guy and working people, but every chance the Democrats in Illinois get to keep checking up taxes. That's why Illinois is the highest tax state in the nation. So I was determined to invest more money in healthcare and provide healthcare to kids

and other families, do things like free public transportation for our seniors, which we did, preschool for three and four year olds, and a lot of other initiatives without raising taxes on the people, which meant to pay for those things, you got to move the money around that means you're taking it away from others who've benefited from it, and when you do that, you piss them off. So I think a lot of it at the do with the establishment came after me, and I sat in prison and watched with horror. What the same people, using the same playbook, were trying to do to President Trump. And what they did to me, a Democrat governor at the AAA level, they tried to do with the

major league level to a Republican president. Fortunately, he was able to beat it because he had a lot more support. And he had the ability of the Oval Office and the bully pulpit that the president has that governors don't have. But it's the same thing. And this is very scary for our democracy. It's not a Democrat or a Republican issue. It's an American issue.

It goes to the heart of our freedoms. We the people should choose our leaders and free fair and honest elections and not have them have the choices taken away from us by corrupt prosecutors who would criminalize legal things. I didn't break a single law. And yeah, you have those naysayers over there in Chicago. Everything I did was legal. They were conversations that began because President elect Obama sent an emissary to me to make a political deal about the senator he wanted.

The person he wanted picked his senator. We discussed what we could get on that political deal, all legal. I mean, I got a DNA algebra. I'm not claiming to be the smartest guy in the room, but I'm not that stupid. How do you fucking steal a Senate seat when you're the governor and get away with it? You can't be that stupid. You don't mind me swearing right now. You're fine. You guys are fucking golden. Go back to that when you're saying, go ahead.

Right. So, you know, they expected, what they did was the prosecutors did. They brought shock and awe. I was Roger Stone before Roger Stone. In other words, they came to my house with SWAT teams at 6 o'clock in the morning. On the night of December 2008, I'm a sitting governor. You don't arrest a governor or anybody unless the person's a threat to run away or threat to his neighbors.

I was neither one of those things. But they did it for the big show. And they did it to create an environment where they create this inevitable foreseeable chain of events that would invite the media to see the super sensational story and run with a narrative that they fully expect that I would just give up and give in and cut my losses and maybe take 18 months, but I would never do it. And so I fought back and they didn't convict me

at a first trial. They tried me a second time. They used an unlawful standard to convict me on legal things, no one even alleges that it took any money. It was all politics. And the so-called sale of the sentencing, which I'm known for, was reversed by the appellate court on the 22nd of July 2015 as I sat in prison.

They can never uphold that unlawful standard they used against me. But they kept me in prison for three fundraising requests where there was no quid pro quo, which means no crime. But they moved the line and instructed the jury to convict if we asked for campaign contributions from people or groups who had business interests with the state, which is how politics works. Completely legal. But I think it was such a big deal

that somebody had to go down. And you know when you're fighting back against that kind of power, deep down, you know you're going down, but you make a decision, I'm going down fighting because this went to Churchill's sedinations that go down fighting, come back, but those who shamelessly surrender don't. So I think I've got a powerful comeback ahead of me.

Yeah, when you're saying they did this, they did this, they did that, they did this. Who is they? Can you define, is it Michael Casey? Is it who's they? Well, the US Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald, who's real close with James Comey. These guys worked together. He was in the FBI, number one, number two guy in the FBI. Muller was the FBI director when they arrested me.

It's the same people that were doing the Trump that they did to me. And I think President Trump recognized that. And that's among the reasons why he sent me home. And, uh... What was his reasoning, though, because he didn't have beef with you to start. There must have been something you have done

where he said, uh, something's up with the guy. Where did this all initiate? You know, I learned, after I was arrested, I learned that they had been investing, first of all, I knew they were investigating my administration and me since the very beginning when I became governor within six months. For a long reason though.

They were looking at some people that I was close to a guy by the name of Tony Resko who was close to Obama and me, raised money for both of us. And, but I had nothing to do with any of the things that they were looking at him at, but I was well aware that they were looking and, you know, you come out of Chicago politics, you just assume those people look at you.

So everything, you know, I tried to do was to make sure we were super careful we didn't do anything across lines. The irony is those FBI tapes for six weeks they were taping me, I assumed it was possible they could be listening. I was discussing the sale of sentencing. I was talking about every possible idea so that whatever we did was legal, didn't cross lines and was the best possible decision I could make

on something that was F and golden. It was fucking golden. You got this thing, everybody wants it and you can make a real good political deal that could be helpful, hopefully to people if you do it in a right way. So it wasn't like, I wasn't aware that they were looking at me. They were very much intensely looking at me.

Yeah, so you've seen the movie of American gangster with who's in it? Russell Crowe is in it with Denzel, right? Am I getting the right word, Russell Crowe? And then there's the scene where Russell Crowe's sitting there and he's got this person at the top that he's thinking is the main guy behind Blue Magic. I think it's called Blue Magic.

And he's the one that's doing it. And then all of a sudden he realizes, no, no, the guy out there all the way at the top is Frank Lucas, right? And a Frank Lucas, three chords of billion dollars during that time of year. And anyways, later on he comes in and he throws everybody else under the bus or whatever happened with the case at the end of the movie.

But so you said Fitzgerald, Mueller, you say all these names, right? And it's same thing that you Trump, come me, right? All these names you're saying, who is the boss of them? That's like, who are they supporting? Who's the guy at the top when you play the same game? I'm not even sure I know. To this day, I'm still trying to sort it out and figure it out. I do believe that there was some collusion with the Democratic House Speaker and Chairman

of the party, Michael Madigan, who's now facing federal, intense federal investigation. I do believe there was a collusion when they impeached me because they wouldn't allow me to play tapes. You see, here's the thing, you guys, Patrick and Adam, they taped me for six weeks. They played snippets, selected snippets of conversation out of context to make me look bad. This is fucking cold and I'm not giving it up for nothing. That was the day after the election. That was the day after I was approached by this labor boss who said,

Barack called me the night before, wants to talk to you about a Senate seat. What do you want? So I mentioned that to my aides. We discussed, what can we get for this? And there was no. They don't play the rest of the tape where, you know, the conversation is put in a proper context. Do you have that?

Do you have the recording? I have all those tapes I've had them for years, but we're not allowed to play them publicly because immediately after they played those snippets and arrested me, they went right into court and got a seal order to keep those tapes under seal. And it's against the law if you release them. And then we tried repeatedly in court to play those tapes at the trials. I was promised by the judge in the second trial that if I agreed to testify, I could play the tapes to corroborate my testimony.

So I agreed to get up there and testify because I knew that if I testified, I'm not the tapes. The prosecutor is going to do exactly what he did and that is lie to the jury and say, go back to their jury room and see how many times you hear tapes corroborating what he says. Well, I get up there. They won't play the tapes. To this day, they won't play the tapes. And the tapes show a very different story from what they tried to have people believe. They are lion scumbags. They're corrupt motherfuckers. You can say that here, right?

Yeah, you can't say. I was watching the part where you're like, I'm gonna testify, I will testify. I'm gonna show you, wait till you hear it. I want everybody to be up there. I'm the opposite of a, you know, Nixon. Nixon said, no, I want everything to be out there. And then when it comes down to it, you didn't testify. And you said, your lawyer wanted you to testify,

but the father encouraged you to not testify, because you don't have to, and you said something, if there's one thing that I'm guilty of, is sometimes I, you know, talk too much or something like that, you said, right? So from your end, I've heard the answer on the documentary. Unless if there's a different answer, why didn't you eventually testify?

If you know your innocent, why don't you testify? Right, well I did at the second trial. What you're talking about in that Hulu documentary is the first trial. And at that point, their case was so ridiculously, there was no crimes that the decision by the lawyers was, don't even bother putting a defense on. They proved nothing.

And so therefore, if you don't put a defense on, you can't testify. So that's what happened. And all those charges, none of them were the corruption charges. None of them were convictions. Okay, they were all hung jury. So they declared a mistrial. I didn't realize they can try you forever. They try you a second time.

If we didn't, if I was successful, the second time they tried me a third time. But so they tried me the second time, and there I testified. I'm the promised by the judge that if I agreed to testify, I could play the tapes to corroborate my testimony and the judge lied.

And I got up there, and I wasn't allowed to play those tapes. Andborate my testimony and the judge lied and I got up there And I wasn't allowed to play those tapes and the prosecutor lied directly to the jury He's a liar his name is Reed Sharer and I challenged him to challenge me He went up for the jury and lied and said you're gonna testify about the Senate seat go back into the jury room And here how many times you hear tapes? If there were 102 conversations on that on the one particular subject that he was accusing me of lying about, and he knew those tapes existed and they wouldn't play them. Well, governor. It was a total frame up.

I'm sorry. No, no. There's nothing worse than being accused of something that you generally didn't do. Agreed? Yes. I mean, there's nothing worse than that. And I'm not here to play jury judge as executioner. That's not my job here.

You know, the jury was out and you're not, you're not admitting guilt. And more power to you, if you're freaking innocent, I would be in the same position as you. But my question is knowing what you know now, what would you have done differently? There must have been something you would have like, you know what? Yes, I'm innocent, but I could have done a little better at that. What is that? Look, I had all those years to think about it, right? I mean, I'm sitting in the higher security prison. I'm the only governor to be in a real prison

where my home was a six foot by eight foot prison cell. They put me there for 32 months, all designed to squeeze me and try to break my will to resist. When you're in a place like that, and then you have all those other years afterwards, you've got more than enough time to do a lot of stuff including think. Not that healthy to think too much, but you can't help it sometimes. Of course, ask myself the same question you asked me because my children have been harmed, my little girls and my wife. And I asked myself, did my pride get so caught up in my pride that I should have been more sensible

and willing to maybe cut my losses a little bit and give in. Not so much for me, but for my kids, so that I won't be gone so long. Probably could have been gone 18 months. They were floating that around after the first try. There was a plea deal you were saying? They were floating the possibility of 18 months every day completely because that would require me to plea deal to something. It's not a crime. I wouldn't do it. And so I asked myself those questions, so I'm answering your question this long way, just because I've gone through it myself many, many times.

And I would answer, here's how I, in my own mind, I feel like I made the right call. If I was a businessman and you're looking at this from a business point of view, and your obligation is to your business, your shareholders, your partners, your family as well. Maybe you make a business decision, you cut your losses, and you say you did something,

you really didn't do, or you plead guilty to what not exists in crime that they're criminalizing in your case, because this is what they do. They take legal stuff, they turn them into crimes, and make you plead guilty to these things. And maybe you do that if you're a businessman, but I was the governor of Illinois. Politicians talk about the buy-balling stuff, but twice I swore on the Holy Bible, the server, and protect the Constitution and the rule of law.

And I was elected by the people to do that. And I just couldn't get over to the fact that I'd be selling out the people as well as myself if I gave into this. Plus the fact that I think I'd be a drunk because I'd hate myself. Wouldn't be able to look at, I couldn't look myself in the mirror, which is something I like to do too often. Okay. Well, you got a great head of hair. Those are the rumors about you.

I'd comb it less because I would hate myself if I gave into what when I know absolutely everything I did was legal. And those conversations were all about making sure we did everything right, because these people are chasing me. So the final analysis is it's been a long, long hard journey. The hand of God reached in, used President Trump as an instrument, the unlikely convergence events that Trump would have me on celebrity or punish. I don't know if you guys know that I was on

that show. And I get to know him a little bit, great guy. He saw what they were doing to me and the years would go by, he'd be the president. They'd do the same thing to him. And there I'd be in prison exhausting all of my remedies. And the guy I endorse for president, the first governor, Obama passes me by and Trump's the one who saves my ass. It's remarkable, right? Well, you know, Obama passed you by because I read some, placed some of the comments you made about him when he said,

I've done more for the black community than he's done. And you said something about, I used to be a shoe shiner and you made a few comments about Obama. And that was made years ago, which he probably held that against you why he didn't wanna pardon you. Because in every possible way, no one in a million years thought

your crime should be 14 years, 168 months. Everybody said, okay, two, three, five years fine. 14 years? It's a little too much to go away for 14 years for what you did. So, that's why a lot of people, you know, that I read about, it's like, you know, Obama should have came out and pardon you.

But I think it was a friend of mine, comment you said two years ago. Would you agree or would you say it's otherwise? I think, I think he passed me by because he was involved in the case. He's the one to start of the whole thing. He sent someone to me and we talked about making a deal based upon his overture to me by sending that labor boss

to me on the election. That's where it all started. That's why I think he passed me by. About that comment in your make-up, yeah, look, I just admitted that I wasn't so good at algebra. I also admit sometimes I say stupid things. And I was talking to some reporter. He was doing an S- Quire magazine, doing a profile on me. I had run eight miles earlier that day, had Norton all day watching Manny Pacquiao fight Ricky Hatton. Remember that fight? Of course. And I had my host, Talian, American guy, Greg guy, Bill Conforty, gave me this drink called

a lemon cello. You ever have that? Yes. It's like lemonade with alcohol in it. And I was thirsty because I'd run, and I had neat and all day. This is why you were the governor? No, I was thrown out of office by then and I was in the middle of my trials.

I think it was before the first trial. And so I had that lemon cello, and I was a little bit too loose-lipped. And I'm talking to this reporter, you can't trust those sons of bitches, right? That's where I'm magazine. And I'm pointing out, Hatton and Pacquiao, especially Pacquiao,

who I've created a admiration for, I like boxing, and talk about how you have to have a chip, in life you have to have a chip on your shoulder, man. It starts in the school yard. When you get your ass kicked, and you got this real hunger, and desire to overcome adversity and stuff, so I started going off on that. Then I got into Obama, and here's where I said the stupid thing.

Not altogether wrong, but you shouldn't say it as a white guy. I said I'm blacker than Obama. Obama's lifestyle, I mean, he went to Hawaii, he's growing up, he went to Harvard, not really an intercity guy. I grew up in the heart of the city, I went to public school. They wouldn't let me in Harvard. They let him in. And you know, I had those jobs, as you say, Chinese shoes and all these other jobs. Just my life experience. And, you know, I had those jobs, as you say, Chinese, you know, these other jobs, just my life experience. And I did talk about how my policies were tremendously helpful to the African American community.

I like to think everybody else too. From far more than his would ultimately be, because he could have done so much more and he didn't. So I said it in that context, but a white guy should never say he's blacker than a black guy. So I did apologize for that. I said it and uh... it was around the same time that harry read made those comments as well so I think harry read made some comments as well about him saying the reason why he got

elected because he doesn't have the accent of some some uh... his dialect isn't and you do you remember this time or i'm here to get harry read made a comment harry reader jobine no no it's harry read harry read said the reason why obama got elected is because he has a dialect of a white man something like that uh... anyways okay you can find it so we can uh... uh... because we don't want so go back to it so go back to the question i asked you in you you win one direction and then you went to uh... he asked the question about what things you would have changed

but when you said they they they they, they, they, they, they, and I said, who is they? Who's at the top of they? And you said Fitzgerald and he said, Komi. And then he said, you know, Mueller, some of these names that you said. And then now when I said, why didn't Obama pardon you? Because you said Obama was a part of it.

So now let's go to that part, where you say, no, Obama's a part of it. My speculation becomes, if Obama, so because sometimes I feel like, you know, when Jerry Bus gets a call from Shaq, and Shaq says, hey Jerry, Riley and the heat offer me 20 million year. If you match me, I'll stay with you at the Lakers.

You know what Jerry Bus told him? He said, I think you should take that offer because I can't match that offer. And what does Shaq do? He goes to Miami. What does Jerry do? He locks in who? Kobe.

Right? Okay. Similar call happened when Pat Riley called Jerry bus and said, Hey, listen, I'm getting a massive contract from the mix. You want to match it? I'll stay. I don't want to leave the Lakers, but they're offering like five and a half million here, whatever the number was.

And he's like, dude, I can't pay you that. You go take that contract, right? I feel like at one point, and I'm seeing this trend on both political parties, when they lock on to someone, everybody becomes indispensable, right? And somebody asked to almost take a blame for something. So during COVID, you know, the first six months, the rock star of COVID was who? He was a rock star. Right. Every day we heard Cuomo, Cuomo, Cuomo. He's the next presidential candidate. Him and his brothers would go at it.

And then something happened behind closed doors that I don't think any one of us will ever know what happened there. Where he either didn't say yes or he either thought he was bigger than the political party. Pelosi and these guys flipped on him. Next thing you know, hey, you got to resign. He resigned and his brother, boom, then you know Zucker,

boom, then a CMO, boom, we saw what the trickle effect was all the way down. Do you think it was a position right there, to all these guys behind closed doors said? Look, that guy's a governor. He's probably not going to be the president. This guy's a senator. He had a great speech at the DNC in 2004.

We can get behind this guy. Let's back him up. Let's throw this guy under the bus and let's go. Do you think a conversation like that took place beyond closed doors? No, I don't think so. I don't think it was like that. I think it was that these federal prosecutors,

some of them are just unscrupulous guys who abuse their power and make big names for themselves by being big game hunters. And this guy was chasing me for a long, long time. I think he was also chasing Obama because of Resco. And so when Resco got and died, and on stuff that had nothing to do with me, or Obama.

So he was trying to get Obama as well. I believe this is my belief. I'll give you my belief on how it all shook out. So what happened was, because Resco was closer to Obama than he was to me. He actually bought him property. Obama bought a big mansion after he was elected the United States Senator and then the lot,

the adjoining lot. This guy, Rescoe bought for Obama. And then when the heat was on politically, Obama gave him a bill and Rescoe paid $13,000 to put a fence up. But the $750,000 lot that was paid at this price by Rescoe was basically for Obama. It was like adjoining a lot to the mansion that he bought.

So they were looking at both of us, I think, because of Resco. And they were right to look at Resco. There were allegations related to stuff that he was doing. In any event, he finally gets convicted Resco does, and they're squeezing them to say stuff about the two of us. He puts out a letter to the sentencing judge and says that these federal prosecutors are trying to make me say things about Governor Blagojevich and Senator Obama. He actually listed me first. I'm not going to lie about those two guys just to save

myself. I've never been involved in any wrongdoing with the... Rescue. Rescue. Yeah. It's a matter of public record. Made the front page of the Chicago Tribune. The big fear was would rescue, lie to save himself because they squeeze these people, you know, with scary and long sentences, but if they'll say certain things they want them to say, single-compose, you know, then they get lighter sentences. That was the big fear, but when rescue did that, both of us were in real good place. That's when they started putting the FBI tapes on me. But then when they arrested me, here's what I think happened with Obama.

They immediately went to Obama and they interviewed him because he was involved in the case. And those are called FBI 302's. To this day, they still won't give us my team, my lawyers, the FBI 302's of Obama's interview, which is absolutely relevant to a criminal defended me in facing what I was facing. They have to give you that. They didn't and they still won't.

So they've got that sort of under seal as well. I think Obama made a calculation, as political people made a calculation, that when Fitzgerald made that big move, arrested a sitting governor in such a dramatic way the way he did, I was politically radioactive. They did this on purpose. Everybody ran. It's like the ship is sinking and everybody jumps overboard, right? Obama was no different and he was saving himself politically, not wanting to get caught up in any of that. And so they, I was sold out in the process. You, you seem like a very ambitious guy, very, you seem like super ambitious with a chip, which I relate to the, on the, on the, I would say that's projection considering your background. I'll bless you. Well, listen, that's projection considering your back. Well listen, I praise by

the way. It's America. No, I I see you as an extremely ambitious guy with a very unique quality. When I'm listening to you and you're like, we're sitting there with my my wife and Amy and the girls and I we go to sleep and I'm telling them we're going to stay strong. We're going to stay strong and I'm not breaking. I'm not crying. We're not going to cry. We're going to get through this because the truth is this and all this stuff. And then, you know, you say, we go to sleep, we put the kids to sleep and I wake up in the morning and I woke up at four o'clock because I was about

to go away to jail and for, I'm only 14 years and I'm getting and I'm still not crying. I'm not, you're telling this story. You're not breaking, right? And then you said, I'm not gonna turn on because I've been replanting this in my mind that if I go out the door, I'm not gonna look back and I go out the door and I look back and it was the hardest thing

I had to do my life and it makes you know the reports are out there. I'm like this guy is so mentally and emotionally like he is not going to allow the opponent to win whether he's right or wrong You got to respect an opponent like that you you got. You got that tough skin that you can't teach that. And that's what family, because family is emotional. That's a very difficult thing to go through. And then you sitting here and here in the story with Obama and you, as a person that's extremely ambitious with a chip on the shoulder,

I'm curious to know what your answer is gonna be to this. And I think, I hope it's not the answer that I think you're gonna give, but I hope you tell the truth, the real truth and I'm just curious on what you'll say about this. Were you at all Envious jealous upset that a one-term senator became a president and the governor of Illinois didn't where you felt you were more qualified to be a president than him? I would say I was more resentful than jealous. I admire his skill. Right. You know, he gave a great speech in Boston in 2004 that catapulted him. I would say I was more resentful than jealous. I admire his skill. Right. You know, he gave a great speech in Boston in 2004 that catapulted him.

Look, I had a good relationship with Obama when we were politics together, Illinois. It was not close, but it was good, it was friendly. You're both Democrats. We're both Democrats. On opposite sides of town, we were both pretty much the same generation coming up at the same time, both considered rising stars in the 1990s. And I became the governor two years before he became a senator. So we were both on that trajectory way up high.

You became governor two years before he became a senator. Yes. So on paper, you're, you're the guy that should have the lead on running for office more than him. Yes, I think so. And I was a governor too. And historically, governors are more apt to be presidents than senators and fifth largest state. We're not talking governor of like Kansas. But you said resentful. So what caused the resent? The resentment was that I truly believe that the rescue issue was used by Obama, David Althroyd, who's to work for me. And I like Althroyd. Look, it's politics are rough as business, okay? Very obvious. obvious. And, you know, people do things to you on a Monday. They stab you in the back and they screw you.

But you got to work with them on Tuesday, right? And so you build up a certain immunity to this. Now, when calamity comes on, like it did to me and my family at that level, it's a lot more serious. So, but I think what they did was they were dumping Resco on me, making me the guy who was closer to Resco because the feds were looking at Resko. And as Obama's political aspirations were rising in his presidential hopes became more realistic, they were dumping Tony Resko more on me.

This was a design. And the media was all over that. And they were protecting Obama and screwing me. And they were sort of like an affirmative action approach to this. In other words, they were elevating him and making me wear all the negative stuff. I think that's what it was. It was more the resentment of how I was being treated by my own party and by the media. As opposed to a fair assessment that both of us had some misjudgments with a guy that

we thought was not the guy he turned out to be So so going back to the recording in an atom. I'll turn it over to you if you got any questions Go back to the recording that you had right because I think the call was Rom manual said here's four names pick one of them. This is who Obama wants What do you want then I think at the top of the list was what Jesse Jackson Jr Because when a sitting senator goes and becomes a president, the current governor is able to appoint somebody in that seat and a lot of times that's a leverage point, historically, that's not the first. You're not the first person I went through it is.

This happens regularly and there's some kind of leverage and negotiation. Sometimes it's political, sometimes it's campaign support, sometimes it's an endorsement, sometimes it's a lot of different things that you read about. But the recording goes, I got this thing and it's golden right you're fucking golden And I'm not giving it up for nothing. I'm not gonna do it. There's a life after that if I do it, right? You guys are telling me to sit here for two years as a governor and do nothing

Everyone is passing me by give it up for nothing and then You know, he says who's passing you by? And who's doing this? And you said everybody, right? He wanted Jesse Jackson and at the end, you said only 13% of you think I'm doing a good job. And then Ram says, I want Jesse in a way. So the problem is, how do we take some of my financial pressure off of me?

That was the one statement that you made. How do we take some of the finance? And what's funny is, even though they have that in recording out of the 24 counts, they didn't hold you, they didn't, you know, you were not found guilty for that statement. Right. So it was for a complete different count, something that happened in the past donation. They were talking about earlier, right? Raising stuff.

fundraising stuff that happened. So while you're in this moment and going through this and you hear that the recording is public and it's Michael Casey, I think that approving it, Michael Michael you Casey. I don't know exactly what is that's right. He was the assistant attorney. He was the attorney general. He was the one that approved recording you and wiretapping you to listen to no problem caused by the way. With no probable cause which which by the way this goes back to some of the things when I talk to Rudy Giuliani Rudy Giuliani said this whole thing would rico we changed it because that professor from Rutger universe

I don't know what university was that he said here's how we can get the you know mob Let's just change the laws on Rico and they changed it and we know what happens with that they were able to get the mob To go away so While you heard yourself when the recording came public and you heard it What was your initial reaction? Ouch you kidding me I cringed when I heard, especially the F-word, I was flinging it around. By the way, Rahman Manuel says it way more than I do.

He's down the tapes all over the place. Of course, you can't play him. But that's no justification. That's not an indictment to get to him either. It's just, you know, sometimes we talk locker room among the guys. There were no women on those calls when I was using that word, but real quick, that was a career day call.

In other words, we spent two hours on that call. You couldn't play, they wouldn't like just play any of that tape other than what they played that snippet where I'm venting. Because the discussion part of the discussion was, do I just not be governing more? Because the FBI had gone out and ruined my wife's real estate business by going to all of her customers and clients and everybody was afraid to do any business with her.

So we were actually facing some difficult financial circumstances and the discussion was, do I just no longer stay as governor or do I stay as governor for two years or should I make myself a US senator and how would that work for our family? Unlikely, I would ever do anything like that, but that's brainstorming and it's supposed to be able to talk freely and honestly in conversations.

They're not crimes unless you actually do something that's actually criminal, none of those things were. That's brainstorming. And it's supposed to be able to talk freely and honestly in conversations. They're not crimes unless you actually do something that's actually criminal. None of those things were. You could legally make yourself a senator. I was unlikely to do it. But these were discussions that we had for two hours in that particular call. And I was angry too because I knew these feds were on my ass. I knew it.

And I was fearful that they were going to do everything they could to get me because they had such a big investment and getting me. The irony is it's those very conversations where I'm super careful. I don't do anything wrong. That they twist and take out a context and make these things sound worse than they are. Every... I, on average, talked to my lawyer three times a day during that period of time. We could never introduce that into evidence. Because I was asking, can I do this? Can I do that? How do you do a deal like this? Because everybody was coming to me with different ideas,

creative ideas, and what you might want to do with the Senate seat. Like Oprah Winfrey, we discussed her for two days, and whether I should appoint her or send her. She wouldn't take it, but we discussed that realistically. I even did something really stupid. You wanna hear this? Which they played at the first trial.

We can swear here, right? Yes. All right. And it's stupid and it's childish. I'm on the phone, a bunch of guys on the phone we're talking about. I'd like ideality to appoint a black person to the United States Senate.

Because Obama is the only black person he's leaving. There'll be 99, 100 senators that we don't replace him with some of those African-American, no black people in the United States Senate in the age of Obama. So I would like one ideally. But I don't American, no black people in the United States, in the age of Obama. So I would like one, ideally. But I don't want the usual old people in politics, and you know, some people, you know,

they have their own agenda. You know, I'm asking my chief of staff to find me a black person with a strong military background. Somebody like that who's not known. Let's keep thinking creatively and think outside the box, so then I do this stupid thing. I say, hey, Quinlan, he's my lawyer.

Hey, Quinlan, what's the law again about residency to be a senator? How long do you got to live in Illinois? He says you got to live in Illinois for one day. You got to be 30 years old and you, it's okay if you're a naturalized citizen. So then I say, Hey, why doesn't somebody reach out to Halle Berry and Hollywood? Have a move to Illinois for one day? I'll make her aitor. Maybe I could fuck her. You say this. I say this. Of course, I'm not doing any of this.

This is just childish, ridiculous locker room talk with a bunch of guys. So there I am at the first trial, okay? And boy, that's a bad place to be in the plane, these tapes, okay? And you got this big notebook in front of you. And you can look, leaf ahead and see what they're gonna play next see what they're gonna play next

What they're gonna play next you can I don't remember half of this stuff, okay? So I'm looking looking ahead. It's about 11 40 in the morning generally the the judge will break for lunch at noon Media's all over the place every day, right? My devote to loving wife there in the front row right by her husband my wife Patty and I Look ahead night. Whoa, and I see here comes that they're going to play the Halle Berry tape. It's got no relevance. It's just going to be designed to prejudice the jury against me, okay? And cause friction with my wife. That's why they're playing this thing. I see it. I look at the clock and I say, they've got a few more tapes to play. Maybe we can get the noon. At least I might be

able to diffuse this a little bit If I get the lunch break before they play this and warn her that this is coming after lunch sure enough We got there, okay, they didn't play it yet. I take the book I tap around the knee. I show her look They're gonna play this after lunch. Just want you to know. I was joking She looks up. I mean she says what are you? 15 that was all. That's what she said. That's all.

Yeah. She's a trooper by the way. She is a trooper, she's unbelievable. Yeah, no, Halle Berry is beautiful, but of course that was never gonna happen. But you see when they play that stuff out of context and that's all that's there, and then they start telling the public

that these things are somehow illegal, you're fucked. Yeah, my, thank you. Yes, great segue. Shout out to Halle Berry if she's watching. You had mentioned that and clearly everybody knows this politics is a very dirty business beyond. You got caught up in it as bad as anybody. But what you dealt with is that just, hey, it's politics is usual, hey, welcome to the game. Or is there something specific about Chicago, Illinois politics, then dirtier than most states?

I think four governors of the state of Illinois have been in jail, including the governor proceeding you, Governor Ryan. Your arch-Nemesis Mike Madigan, I believe his name is embroiled in political turmoil. You see what's going on in Chicago and they're calling it shy rack and just everything that's happening there. My question is what the hell's going on in Chicago in Illinois? Yeah. The answer is, is it worse corruption, more endemic in a place like Chicago in Illinois

than in other places? The answer is yes and no. It is far more so than let's say our neighboring state to the north of Wisconsin. They're politics. They're governments a lot cleaner. No doubt about that. But it's not that different from Washington. That's the sad reality. I mean, you think about the stuff that happens in Chicago, Mike Madigan. They all got rich. Madigan is the former speaker. Been speaker since 1983. Been a state rep since 1973. The same time Biden became the United States Senator, right? Well, both of those guys got super rich in the job. How does that happen if you're doing it straight, right? So when I think about Biden and 100 Biden in the allegations relating to the Biden family in China, I think about the Bush family in China and their economic interests,

I think about going to war and Iraq, and we were lied to about weapons of mass destruction, and Dick Cheney's device president, and Haliburton, and they break that country up. And then he, his company gets in there to rebuild it. I think about that sort of stuff. And I think Chicago and Illinois isn't that much different from Washington.

There are states that are much better, straight, cleaner. Illinois is not one of them, but it's not that different in Washington than it is. It's funny. I just pulled out the most corrupt states in America. Okay. You got to see this. Type in the following word. The most corrupt states in America. It's a Forbes article. The most corrupt states in America. It's by a by a mile. There you go click on that one go a little more Go look at that make it make it bigger number one is DC look at that Yeah, number of federal public corruption convictions per 10,000 inhabitants from 1976 to 2018 DC's like the Wayne Gretzky of a corruption, you know, they're just crushing number two then

There's no state. No, it's not. And then it's Illinois third. Then Tennessee, New York, Pennsylvania, Virginia, Ohio, Jersey, Georgia, next on that list. And so these aren't red or blue. So it's not like they're all blue states or red states. So how do you interpret this map right here? You know, I don't really know a lot about what's going on in Louisiana. I'm not surprised with some of the history there, right? A lot of it is tradition and customary practices, okay? And Illinois, customary practices here again, I'm the only one who didn't

get rich in that business because I wasn't like those other people. They do it through legal corruption. They pass the laws that benefit themselves or law practices and they get really rich. But I would say this about Illinois. Illinois is so corrupt politically that even our US attorneys can be corrupt. Like those corrupt motherfuckers who did to me what they did. They're dirty rotten scumbags and they're corrupt and they abuse the rule of law. And instead of going after the real corruption and maybe what's happening now with Madigan, that's happening. Instead of going after the real corruption, they went after a guy so they can look like

they did something because I had a high office And they make names themselves and they just add another governor to the list of the trophies that they went in that recording You said maybe I should just come back and listen to Mel Bell and you know not even done any of that stuff and just kind of you know Mel Bell being your Your not Mel Bell dick Bell Dick right your father a lot right that who helped you come up? I do a lot of the things he played, you give him a lot of credit for him helping you come up, but then you guys had a fallen out once you became a governor

where he felt like you no longer had influence over you and you were kind of becoming your own man and you were doing your own thing, you couldn't get any influence and then he turned on you and that kind of led to you getting arrested. Would you agree with that? Very much so he had a landfill. You see, my father-in-law, look, I love him. This strange is this. Yet he's, I think, had a big hand in what happened.

Because he had a landfill that was operating in violation of Illinois environmental rules. I learned about it. And I had to act. And I had three options. I chose to shut it down, let him go to court, clean up the environmental issue, let the court decide what should happen.

But in the meantime, as we were exploring this and learning about his issue, he was threatening me through third parties. If I shut this down, he's gonna do X, Y, and Z on all the rest. And that I've had mobsters involved in the whole thing. The whole thing was rotten and dirty. And I did my job and I shut it down. And he was in fact down here in Florida

at the time vacationing at a home in Santa Bel Island and the West Coast. And he called a press conference. He went to Fort Myers and just started bashing me. And he attacked one of my good friends. He was my top fund raiser saying that he was trading board and commission appointments for 50,000 out of campaign contributions.

A big lie. They later on would retract because he was being threatened with a lawsuit. But once he did that, he unleashed the furies on me. The FBI got really interested. And within a month they were in my life. He started it and he knew it and he was smart politically He's an old Chicago ward boss that whole system that I was up against. I married into it. I love his daughter Part of him. I love to still in spite of it all

But he's a son of a bitch man And this is your father in my father and my father and you're still married to bad. Yes I'm still married to patty. He was over at the house on Christmas Eve. Of course. And he's eight years old. How do you navigate this nonsense? You know what? My Christian faith instructs me to forgive. Imagine Thanksgiving how it's like Christmas. The guy that put you weight is your father on you. Still married to his dog. Well, he wasn't the only he is not the guy that put you away. He kind of came out of Fort Myers. But you're saying he had a hand in it. He did. He unleashed the furies. He knew what he was doing.

I don't think he anticipated it would get as bad as it did. I don't think that, but did he know that the FBI is going to come calling with a mix of that allegation like that? He's a seasoned Chicago pro in Chicago politics had been there since the 1970s. Yeah, he knew. Well, yeah, a lot of the a lot of the stuff you got. What did he get you? Did it start off with Congress?

What roles did you have before he became a governor? Yeah, and by the way, he was helpful to me to get when I got started, but it helped his politics. This wasn't exactly, you know, here's my son. I want to groom him to be my successor. I'm the son-in-law. You know what I mean? As long as my wife Patty loves me, I'm fine with him, but other than that, he could care

less what he had to be with me, right? So his political interests were such that he needed a candidate to run for state representative because in that Chicago old Chicago ward boss world, if you don't have a state representative that's your guy, you're a masculated, you're not such a big tough boss. And so he was getting screwed by the politics around him in the neighborhood. He needed a candidate. He had somebody in the family who was a lawyer, but might be able to give a speech. I had a name nobody could say.

We'd expected to lose. I ran against a trivia and government, turned out I was good at it. And we won big. And then all of a sudden, we had higher aspirations. He was very helpful to me in that race, helpful to me in my congressional race, then helpful to me in the governor's race.

But the higher you go, the less influence somebody like that has, and he felt estranged. But the problem was that landfill. And anyway, it's very complicated. I'm telling you, man, my next laugh I wanna be you. I do not wanna be me. I don't wanna be me. What a life you've lived.

Let me go back to this. So some say you had many like strong aspirations of one day being a president. Was that true? You wanted to be be president one day. You know, yes and no. You get, you become the governor and people start talking about you that way.

I wasn't saying it. They were talking about me that way. And look, anybody who's up that high in politics looks at the next position. So I wouldn't say I wasn't interested in it. But let me say this. I honestly thought, and this might sound like bullshit, but for the first time in my life, I was in a position, governor, chief executive of a big state,

with real power to actually do real stuff for people. I'd spent six years in Congress, I think I was a good congressman, but you don't have a lot of influence there, especially when you're new and young. It's seniority has a lot to do with it. It's also a collective body, so it's not like you can just do things. Not suddenly for the first time in my life, I've got power. I was the youngest in my family, so I never carved a turkey or, you know, my, by Vodalog Carve turkey Thanksgiving dinners.

Now here's something I'm the governor of Illinois. I can actually do stuff. If I wanted to, if I was pursuing a presidential path, and that was my big aspiration, I wouldn't have ruffled feathers, I wouldn't have pushed the and that was my big aspiration. I wouldn't have ruffled feathers. I wouldn't have pushed the stuff that I was pushing. I'd have played nice with all the political leaders, and they'd have been happy to kick me out of Illinois and it'd run me for president,

if I was doing it that way. Frankly, with Obama, I'll do respect. I'll show no go. I mean, he gives a good speech. There's not a lot of substance there. No really achieve, no real achievements for people. And he became the first black president American history, a great opportunity for our country

to bring us further together on race, but he left in his wake a country further divided on race because he played politics with that issue and he's made our country a less united place. In fact, a more divisive place than an angrier place. He could have been a great president and he fucked it up in my opinion, because he wouldn't invest political capital in it.

So to answer your question, maybe the mistake I made if it was being president only was that I was truly trying to get stuff done for people and use my power that way, instead of just being nice with all the politicians, courting people and going up higher. Maybe that would have been the better play and I would have gone to the White House

and not the shit house. You know, a story comes out, obviously obviously you know the story mcc chicago and you've been talking about the snout stop for four minute rat blagoi which files lost seeking right to run for office again in elinoy right former governor of elinoy file a lawsuit in august of twenty twenty one arguing his civil rights uh... were violated with the elinoy state senate banned him from running

uh... for state or local office more than a decade earlier in 2009. The Illinois General Assembly removed the Goivich as Governor Barton from Seeking elected office in Illinois every, and I think they even put your name in there. In federal civil rights complaint, the Goivich now 65 declared what happened to him was unconstitutional because he was denied the right to call witnesses and to cross examine the government's witness, the governor also claimed he was denied the right

to present evidence, especially certain undercover tapes, and as a result, according to the court rulings, people have been denied the right to vote. Who in the past has had a similar situation like you, who went to jail, did time, came back, and they were able to run again, and they went back into office in some sort of an office in a past. Has anyone ever done that? Oh yes. Mary and Barry, the Washington DC mayor, we have an

alderman in Chicago by the name of Walter Burnett, Bank Robert. By the way, a great alderman. Been there for 27 years. He's been allowed to run. I'm the only one that expressly has been put in legislation that says I can't run for anything. And there's a story behind that. The Mary and Barry, what happened with Mary? He was caught doing crack on the crack. Okay. Now tape and then he came back and was elected mayor again in 19. Maybe you should have been doing crack rather than maybe selling a sentencing. Hold on. No, no, no, there was never a sale of the sentencing. I just got to say and in July,

22, 2015, the appellate court confirmed no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no stay penitentiary in indiana so he was actually able to run for president while sitting in a prison cell in indiana uh... look there was a story behind that too they came to me after i was arrested the political leaders in illinois this is a couple they are and they were offered me a deal if i step aside don't pick a senator and temporarily become incapacitated there's a lot that allows a governor who if he or she is sick incapacitated. There's a law that allows a governor who, he or she is sick, can be incapacitated temporarily.

Lieutenant governor assumes the responsibilities of the office. They were gonna extend that law to me. This is what the offer was. If I agreed to do this, then I could keep my pay as the governor, something like $170, $190,000 a year, my security detail. And once I clear my name, I can become governor again.

This is what they offered me. I turned it down for many reasons. But part of the deal was, you can't pick a senator. I turned it down for many, many reasons. Chief among them was, I did nothing wrong. I'm not giving it at all. And they know I did nothing wrong because this is legal politics that's routine

happens all the time. So I picked a senator, which pissed him all off. I picked Roland Burst, an African-American respected person in Illinois politics for a former attorney general in our state. I did it in spite of the fact that every Democratic senator, including Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, all wrote me a letter saying,

if you send us a senator, we're not taken one. And so I sent this African-American man there, and for the first day they wouldn't let him in. It was like in the age of Obama, our first black president. We had gone back to the early 1960s and James Meredith is trying to get into old myths. They wouldn't let this guy in the most exclusive club in the world, the United States Senate. Well, America watched this on television and within a day, I think the African American community around the country saw it.

The Democrats folded and they let him in and held a dinner for them that night. Typical politicians, right? So, when I was doing that, they said to me, if you pick a senator, we're going to throw you out of office before Groundhog Day and we're going to pass a law that disqualifies you for money for anything. That's how that happened. And I argue it's unconstitutional to direct it at me. And I should have a right to run,

but better than that, the people of Illinois should have a right to vote against me if they want. I'm not interested in running for anything necessarily. The first primary I'd have to win is my wife. She's made it clear. If I run, I'm doing a second one. Are you saying you're not interested in,

even if you win this lawsuit, are you trying to tell me what all your political acumen and everything that has been built up with you over the last decade? You have no interest in running for public office again? Look, because I don't believe it. There's like, I feel like I see a politician, a well polished politician who has a, you know,

a story where he's been dragged through the mud and you have something, you have a chip on your shoulder like Patset. So even if you win this lawsuit, are you saying that you don't want to run? Okay, I don't know if my wife's watching this, but let me answer this as best I can. Okay, because I'd have to get through that because she's been clear. If I ever get in politics again, I'm doing it with my second wife and she's, she did say that by the way. She says it repeatedly. What a wonderful wife. She defied all the odds. Nine to one odds when I was arrested the Vegas odds and makers had it that she would leave.

I know as a statistical fact that a woman and a man, if a guy's in prison for four years or more, there's better than 90% chance she's out. She leaves, she can't wait, especially if he's got a lot more time to do, which was the case with me. She's defied all the odds. She's a wonderful mother,

best person I've ever known. I love her, she's great. And she's gone through so much because of the career I had. She suffered greatly. So do I need to be a better husband and think about her? Of course. And that's the first priority.

In the event that I was somehow successful in this lawsuit, and I say some I just because I have another bad luck in that building. But if that happened, are you asking me, would that wet my appetite? Would I be very interested in exploring the possibility. I'm like one of those boxers who fights into the 50s, right? You just can't get out of that arena, right? You want to get back in there and get that title back. So there is that element I have.

And I do look at Chicago. I look at our horseshit mayor. She sucks. Our city is crazy with violence. You're no fan of Lori Leiford. She's a bad mayor. I actually like the fact that she's a woman, like the fact that she's black, I like the fact that she's a lesbian. I think that's a qualifies her as she's a former US attorney, but she's a terrible mayor and she's given

pain. Sounds like a woke dream right there. And she's and she's gone out of this whole defund the police stuff. She's not back in the police. We have tremendous crime in our city. And 75% of the victims are black kids, black people, and it's just tragic. Anyway, to answer your question, if I won that lawsuit, I would of course be really interested. I might want to tip it toe and tap my wife on the back on the shoulder and say, honey, can we have a talk?

And maybe see, perhaps maybe she might have an open mind. What would you run for, though, if you could? What would you run for? Would you go center, would you go straight governor, would you go mayor. What would you run for though? If you could, what would you run for? Would you go center, would you go straight governor, would you go mayor, what would you run for? Well, I mean, you know, I wouldn't really, I don't see myself being governor again. I'll tell you, Marisha Kago would be a great job.

I'm not saying that. I don't want to make any noise. It's a news because it's high. It just, right now there's a lot of things I can't do. It's what's, but that'd be a job that'd be really challenging to make you do differently than what she's doing right now? Again, with the whole Shirek thing. And every time you turn on the news, more murders in Chicago, July 4th, our new year, Chicago,

like it's just constant. What would you do differently? How could you change Chicago? At higher 10,000 more police officers. I'd get them from around the community, a lot of them from the black areas, the black neighborhoods, train them the way you're supposed to be trained. In other words, I doubled the police force. I'd have the backs of the

police. And we know where the gang bangers are and we'd go out and arrest them. We're not trying to defund the police in Chicago. Just the opposite. I dramatically increased funding for the police. You don't sound very much like a like a woke Democrat to me. I'm an orphan Democrat. That's why I call myself a Trump Accrat. I think millions of others like me across America like this.

Break down down what the what the you're the first person I've ever heard use the phrase Trump Accrat. Obviously he you're the first person to be fired by Trump and then pardon by Trump. You're an exclusive company right there. What does it mean to be a Trump Accrat? A Trump Accrat is someone who still on the side of working people, everyday people, the silent majority forgotten voices, who recognize there is a ruling class in America. There are elitist snubs and they screw ordinary people.

They lie to them all the time, like that Canadian Prime Minister should know what a liar he is. We go into that in a minute, maybe. But, and that Trump has started a political movement that's part of the realignment of American politics where a lot of traditional working class men and women who voted Democrat historically have recognized that Democrat Party has taken him for granted and in many ways sold him out like trade agreements with China and some other countries that have sent their jobs overseas. Those types of voters have always been the ones that have been, the ones I've really fought hard for. They were like my mother and father. So I think,

I would say that that's a Trump Accrat. And I think, you know, he's got his own style, everybody has their own style, but the actual movement that he started, I think, is for real. And there's a political realignment that's going on in America. And I predict that Democrats are going to see a tremendous loss of black support in this next election and the growth of the Latino voters for this new kind of politics that Trump is backing, not the old line Republican Party of Romney, McCain, or McConnell, but the sort of new politics that Trump has created, I think you're going to see an increase in Latino voters, and eventually they're going to become

predominantly Republican voters. I do believe that because they work hard, live in the American dream, they're like the new Italian-American community in America. And they're growing, the fastest-growing community in all of America. So let's go through a couple of stories. I want to get your reactions on them. So one, there's a story here from Breibar, Blagojevich, Democrats, very fearful of what I know. X Democrat, Illinois governor, turned Trump a crack. Rod Blagojevich said he believes governor, J.B.

Pritzker, try to keep him in jail because Democrat establishment is afraid of what he knows and what he will say soon, the ex-governor blasted Pritzker for reportedly calling Trump not once, but twice requesting to keep him behind bars. Jker for reportedly calling Trump not once, but twice requesting to keep him behind bars. JB called Trump not once, but twice joining with the most Republicans to say, keep him in. Don't let him out.

Keep him in. Don't let him out. Why did he do it? But govich continued before foreshadowed his willingness to expose the underbelly of his former party. I truly believe it's because JB Pritzker, Governor Pritzker, and some of the Democratic political establishment is very fearful. They're very fearful what I know and what I can't say and what I'm likely to say and what

I will say soon. That's why I think that he did that. So what is it that you know that they're afraid of? Well, there's a lot of things, a lot of them are on the tapes, and that's one of the reasons why those tapes are under seal. So a lot of the stuff that's on those tapes I can't speak about except for the ones that have been released Some of them actually illegally in Chicago Tribune Was it was able to get tapes that was standing to court to seal and the Republican candidate for governor

He uses them against JB Pritzker and our governor in the, his race for governor back in 2018. Pritzker's on the phone, he called me up and asked me to make him, he and I didn't say Senator. So he's on the very calls that, you know, I ended up sending me where I went. And I politely had full discussions with him about his aspirations to be a Senator, told him it was unlikely that I'd pick him, had a good relationship with him back then.

He asked me, then if I could, he was shopping around for an office. If I could make him state treasurer, because I had the power to do that too, and he anticipated the vacancy of the state treasurer's office, I told him that he had a better chance of me doing that for him than the United States Senate. Nothing illegal about these conversations, but within the conversation he was referring to, you know, my desire to point a black person to the Senate as being a political, a problem, my black problem he called it, which almost indicates certainly some insensitivity about race. And if you're, these neo-racist, these neo-racist

keep pointing to their fingers that everything be in racist, I mean, he'd certainly be one of their poster childs. When Nick was saying that, I'm not saying he is. I'm just saying he said it. But I had a good relationship with him. I had pointed him, he had supported my opponent in the Democratic primary for governor 2002, but then when I won, he asked me if I'd make him the director of the Illinois Human Rights Commission. And I did. And as far as I know, he did a good job. And then when calamity came after he made those phone calls, that phone call to me and we talked politely, I understood that he was stayed awake because everybody did and they were right to do it because when you have what you, I have, that's leprosy.

Nobody wants to come near to that. That's the less they catch it. But then when I'd been in prison for all those years, and Trump had publicly said that he was going to let me out, indicated he was letting me out, he had called my wife, Patty, in July of 2020 or 2019 that he was going to do it. This was a little bit before his call on that Ukrainian phone call, right? Five Republican congressmen wrote President Trump a letter saying don't let him out and then Pritzker called Trump twice, urged him not to do it. And you know, if he wants to say publicly, keep him in, he's a corrupt son of a bitch and

all the rest, I get the politics of that. I don't like it, but I get it. But to go the extra mile, actually, call the president and try to keep him, to keep me in prison when I have young children like he has. And I'd already been in prison for seven and a half years. Why would he do that? I think because of the political fears that they have on the things that I could do and say

that would expose them, some of that on those FBI tapes. I think. Governor, you seem like you're in pretty good shape right now. Yeah, okay, I'm not sure. I better shape than Governor Pritzker. That's my question, actually. Have you seen a picture of what Governor Pritzker looks like? Let's take a look.

So my question to you as they pull up his picture seems like you're a fighter. You've mentioned that you're a golden glove's boxer. Pritzker doesn't seem to be working out as much as you. My question is this, politically, if you were to fight him, who would win? And then if you actually stepped in a ring with Governor Pritzker, who would win that fight? Well may be a no brainer right that you know contest hillary would be a tougher fight than him you think you'd knock him out what you say you go right to the bottom yeah right he'd been over it that's unfortunate you know i wonder why they just with him i mean it was

here a lot of money i know high-hole, I say. Yeah, the high-hit family, yeah, it's her family, I'm well aware of who they are. I say things I shouldn't say, and I'm gonna say it again, I know this is wrong, because I shouldn't make fun of the fact that he's, we have a chubby governor. Rotund.

Beyond rotund. But he was born with a silver ladle in his mouth. Yeah. And that's not right. And the reason I say it is because of what he did when he called Trump to keep me in. Otherwise, I wouldn't make fun of it like that. But if I step away and try to be good as I should try to be, I feel bad for him. That can't be good.

He shouldn't be like that. He should spend all that money and time to, you know, take a walk and do it consistently. He's not good for his health. And I think the stress of the office is partly causing that. Yeah. I think. And politically, how do you think you would match up against him? Let's say you could run again for governor. I assume he's going to run again for real. Yeah.

How would you fare against him in a democratic primary? Sure. I think I could be really competitive. I really do. Now, he's got, you know, he's spent $170 million of his own money that he inherited to win governor the first time, 170 or 175 million. By the way, if I was gonna sell a sentence, he didn't eat my guy. I mean, this is the guy, he would have bought it

because he wanted to be something. He asked me to make him senator, then he asked me to make him treasurer. He just wanted to be something. And if I was what they said I was, this is my guy. I could have, you know you know given a discount thirty million i will say that he is giving you a run on a the great head of hair campaign both of you

governor former governor's killing in the hair game how what do you say to that yeah good i mean look i miss the old jp that i used to know unlike i mean i never realized he was has that mean street that he has and by the way spent a terrible governor too and the ways mishandled the co situation, he's politicized that. And in such a way, where people in Illinois don't trust them, and it's not unlike some of the other governors, too, they don't practice what they preach their big hypocrites, and they don't lead by example,

or join in the shared sacrifice. And when you're asking people to make sacrifices, you should be the first one making those sacrifices. Right. How closely are you following this story with Durham, Hillary, Trump, are you following pretty closely? Yes, because I recognize that stuff, you know it. So I want to see it from your perspective, because we've read the other side of stories, the one that's from Fox News or Breibart or Daily Wire.

I want to read you WAPO's perspective on what happened here. We read the vanity first, what were Hillary's like, I didn't do anything, you know, here's what they're trying to do to spin job. You saw her speech she gave last week in regards to Durant. But here's a wild post story about it, how the right embrace the false claim that Hillary Clinton spied on President Trump. The group includes anonymous Twitter accounts such as one called TechnoFog, conservative journalists such reporters for the epoch times red state formal administration officials Fox news newsmax

Then led the charge on conservative television often in misleading ways and many ways the highlighted phrase executive office for the president of the United States formed the core of the conservative news coverage That a lot that followed a claim that Democrats had spied on Trump even when he was president but Durham's filing which is written and confusing prose, did not actually say that Trump's internet traffic had been monitored during his presidency. Rodney Jaffee, tech executive one, who's not been charged as an internet entrepreneur who founded the world's first commercial internet hosting company, sometimes some statements by Jaffee spokesperson to and Susman's legal team insisted that the data, Susman provided to the CI in 2017 meeting pertain to the time before Trump became president

when Barack Obama was still president. So what do you know about story? How much credibility is there behind the story? Which story? Durham. Oh, Durham? Yeah. Oh, I think every bit of it, I believe every bit of it.

My regret is it's gone so slow. I think it's gonna, if they do this honestly, that you're gonna find a lot more people involved. I, here's what I think really happened. I think this was opposition research by the Hillary Clinton presidential campaign. It was conducted by the law firm Perkins and Kui, which incidentally represented me

on my political stuff, campaign finance stuff and things like that, prominent Democratic law firm. They got this guy steel to drum up a fake dossier, and all that stuff they said about Trump and Russian collusion, and having sex with prostitutes. I mean, this is really familiar when you're in that ugly business like politics, you see this. Some people will do that on the other side. They'll cross lines and do it. And, you know, let's, I mean, I think most people would agree who understand Hillary Clinton and Bill Clinton.

Those guys, they played not her, she and him. They played hardball politics. So the whole thing was predicated on a big lie, manufactured by them for political reasons and then Trump won, spited that. And they were determined to destroy his presidency and in effect cause a coup d'état. And having built a victim of one myself, I recognize it when they're doing it to somebody else. And Obama and Biden were in meetings with General Flynn

and early on after the transition period and suddenly Flynn is facing criminal charges. The whole thing seems to be part of a conservative campaign to undermine the succeeding president. They didn't really want him. The irony is they didn't accept the outcome of that election in 2016. From the very beginning, Ratha destroyed his presidency and destroyed him. And they still are. Right. You hear the story when people say, you know, politics is such a dirty game. I mean, how many times have you heard that about how many people? Everybody says that. We mentioned it. Five times on

the such a dirty game. It's a dirty game. It's a dirty game. It's a dirty game. How dirty is it really for a guy that's been on the inside? How dirty of a game is politics? I did 2,896 days in prison. That's how dirty it is. It's fucking dirty. I didn't break a single law. I didn't care. You know, and I'll never stop saying it because I didn't. It was a political hit. I believe the evidence would show if I'm allowed to dig deeper into it, that the US Attorney was politically motivated and it worked with the Democratic House Speaker on the impeachment against me. And I think that we have a real dangerous problem in America. Forget about me. What happened? Happened, but moving forward, we have a real problem with federal

prosecutors with uncontrolled power, no checks and balances on these people. They have unlimited resources. They can terrorize and destroy people, make people say certain things that they don't say that they'll destroy them, so they say things against somebody else. They're using it now against political leaders. If you got a politician who's taken cash in a brown paper bag throw his ass in prison, of course, but they're criminalizing things that aren't crimes. Russian collusion, the sale of the Senate seat, it's like they went to the same Madison Avenue advertising firm to come up with these

clever names. And the media, they're such, they're all about the advertising dollars, rather than do their jobs and seek the truth, they're out running with these narratives. And they create a political environment that inevitably leads to what you saw with Trump and then with me. It with Trump, it was polarized and divided between the parties attempt to throw a president out and pitch him on nothing. He had nothing to do with any of it. In fact, he came from the other side.

And then the second impeachment on the Ukrainian phone call, maybe, you know, it wasn't polite, but nothing illegal about Ukrainian phone call. Maybe, you know, it wasn't polite, but nothing illegal about that phone call. In fact, the president of the United States has an obligation as the chief law enforcement in America. If he has reason to think that the former vice president of the United States and his son are doing kinky stuff in Ukraine and getting wealthy on it, he has an obligation to look into it. Does he actually? He does. Yes, he's the chief law enforcement in the United States. He is an obligation to look into it. Does he actually? He does. Yes, he's the chief law enforcement in the United States. He is responsible to the Constitution. If there's

reason to think there's somebody doing something that's illegal, you have an obligation to look into it. Being that politics is such a dirty question. Yeah. Yeah. Being that politics such a dirty game, and I know we've alluded to the fact that, you know, maybe you would run again if your wife would be so gracious. Sorry. If you could, because again, I'm going to go back to the fact that I think you're a brilliant politician, whether people, you know, love you, hate you, whatever, you're, you got that, that it factor.

But if you could build these days, the perfect politician, someone who can withstand all the drama, social media, bring the country together. Who would you, like, if you could take, I could take a little of JFK. I would take Trump's arrogance. I would take Buramas' eloquency. Is there, how would you build the perfect politician today for president? Yes, a great question.

In other words, a little bit Abraham Lincoln, a little bit of Franklin Roosevelt, a little bit of Ronald Reagan, right? Yeah, I think you could piece certain things together. Reagan's ability to talk to the American people would be one skill set that would be very helpful. Southing, calming, trustworthy. You know, it's interesting when Reagan was president.

If you pulled people on the specific positions Reagan took on most issues, they didn't agree with them, but they trusted him. So I would say that would be a piece of it. Clearly Lincoln is kindness is goodness and his strength. There's elements of that. Franklin Roosevelt's ability to articulate and lead. I'll give Obama points there as well. Maybe take some of that. But ultimately, to be a great leader, I believe. You've got to have it inside of you. And the toughness inside gets revealed by the circumstances and the events of the time

that you have to face. Lincoln rose to the challenge and showed her real toughness inside. Franklin Roosevelt did the same thing. Once a Republican one was a Democrat during times of great crisis. Some of these, you can take Obama's eloquence and disability to give a speech, but underneath that, there isn't that greatness that those other two have. And if I were to say the ideal combination, I would, frankly, if I were to limit it, I would say Lincoln and Franklin Roosevelt, both great communicators in their own way.

Who do you think is the best up and coming politician? Obviously, you know, Trump has been there, Biden's been there, Bernie's been there, Nancy Pelosi's been there, you know, John McCain. I mean, the list goes on on McConnell. These are guys on their 70s, 80s. Who in their 40s do you look at and say, damn, that guy's that girls got it? Who who comes to mind these days that young up in commerce? I Don't know that we know who that person is yet

It could be somebody from outside of politics I do think that more and more people who are outside of politics could be helpful to the system I do think this though. I would say you know I this though, I would say, you know, I, I, America is so divided. When I came home, so much has changed. I didn't recognize my party. You know, it was eight years that I was gone. And you know, social media, all this stuff is so different now, right? Everything is so quick and people have all these views that which is important that they have those. This

idea of cancel culture and this walteness, it's a very different thing and a very dangerous thing, I think. I think freedom is in danger in the United States. And I think that the hyperpartisan nature of our politics is making things worse not better. And I don't know that I have a direct solution to it because both parties are sort of locked into their positions. It's all about winning the next election.

I do think that Republicans are going to have a very good year, 2022. I do think there's a realignment going on in American politics, which could be very helpful and get us back on a good track. But I think the hyper partisanship is so extreme that it's just turning off too many people and dividing us too much. It would be nice to see some person come out who might be able to find a way to unify without selling out his or her principles.

And so a guy like Reagan had that ability, Roosevelt had that ability, Lincoln had that ability. Somebody like that, do I see anybody in the horizon right now? I don't, I'm obviously very biased towards President Trump for what he did for me. I mean, I think stylistically, you know, he is what he is. Some people love it, some people don't. But I do think that a lot of the stuff he's been working at and talking about is bright for America.

You know, the more I'm thinking about this and, you know, saying what he's saying FTR, you know, Lincoln assassinated Reagan attempted assassination, you know, these guys. Franklin Roosevelt too, did you know that? Franklin Roosevelt and JFK same. You know, a lot of these guys who push the envelope, they have a target on them, right? Now today assassination is a different kind of assassination. I think I character assassination, which is worse sometimes than, you know, some may say is worse than the actual assassination, right?

Can I say something about that, Pat? Yeah, sure. During my troubles, look, I make light of it, right? And I mean, but those were hard years. And when you got this, and they're after you like that, and they have all that power, and you know deep down you're dead, but you're gonna go down fighting. I would frequently find comfort late at night when I try to fall asleep.

And I'd imagine myself walking into that federal court building and someone rescuing me from when I was facing by walking up to me and shooting me dead. In other words, assassinate me. I'd much rather have that than what they were doing to me because a timely assassination, it's good for your obituary and people will remember you in a more positive way, but be in sent to prison for corruption when you didn't do it. Seem to me a far worse result.

And so when you call this the new kind of form of assassination, you're speaking to me, because in my own mind, my preference would have been the other than what ultimately happened. Now I'm finally through it. It's over. And I'm lucky. I guess I'm glad I wasn't assassinated because I believe in second X. But you're hit it right. This is the new form of assassination. Now, there's politics, the personal destruction with use of fake criminal charges to get people. Yeah. So this this this almost makes me not trust people that are career politicians. It almost makes you think like what do you have to do to be a career politician? Not somebody that comes in does a job and leaves. I'm just going to come. I'm going to

do two terms. I'm out of here. I did my time. One of my rules I follow in our family is make your money. After you make your money, take care of your family. And once you can take care of your family, go get back to public service. And one way or another, be a mayor, be a congressman, be a senator, be governor, do something, and then leave. Matter of fact, the shorter you're in, the more I trust you, the longer you're in, I trust you less. Because how many deals do you have to do behind closed doors? How much do you have to play the game?

In some industries, ten years is a respectable thing to do. In some industries, you think about it. It is a respectable thing to do right in some industries you think about it's a respectable thing to do Some industries like politics. I think 10 year it almost works backwards Because you eventually are gonna have someone that's gonna show you something that they're gonna try to Hey, if you don't do this we're gonna introduce this to the we're gonna send us to New York Times Oh, we're gonna say this about you. We're gonna say this about you. We're gonna tell this to your wife. We're gonna tell this to your kids. We can tell this to your family to Runean and your tempted to say, shit, okay, what do you want me to do?

I need you to do this. And then they have you forever, right? That's what I mean when I say, how ugly is politics. Not what you went through. I really want to know how ugly is the job of being a politician as a career politician. I think one of the biggest problems in America is the fact that we have a permanent ruling class made up of career politicians,

lobbyists, former congressman and senators who are lobbyists, permanent staffers who are all over Washington. I call it the political industrial complex. It exists in Washington, D.C., it exists in state capitals across America. Presidents come and go, governors come and go. These people are there forever. And when they leave Congress, they're lobbyists. So there's the same people, and they talk amongst themselves, and their worldview becomes that world, not where the rest of us live, the other side of the Potomac.

They make good money, five, six million a year. No doubt about it. It's very wealth. It's, and they protect themselves. They support themselves on the backs of everybody else in America. It is the permanent ruling class of these career politicians against we the people.

And that's part of the realignment that's happening in politics. That's why it's changing. And so that's, there's a lot of anger, understandably so. And it exists in both parties no one party is More guilty than the other they're both very much part of that and what's interesting too is that You know the idea of term limits for example when I first became a state rep in 1993 I supported that and The guy that was pushing it would ultimately be my lieutenant governor, he was the state

treasure at the time. He pushed it just to put his name on a bill so he can say it was for it, but he didn't care to even try to pass it. There's a lot of that baloney that goes on in politics. Then a lot of these guys, they got elected in 1994, Republicans, promised term limits. They were going to limit themselves. When they got close, eight years, you know, by then people forgot their promise and they made excuses and they stayed. But I do think

term limits is something that should be seriously looked at. And you know, the irony here is our first president, one of the greatest Americans of all time, George Washington, was all about what you just said. He served two terms and that was it. He could have been king. He didn't want to be king. He could have been a three term king. He didn't want to be king. He could have been a three-term president. He didn't want to be a three-term president. He believed like in the old days of the Roman Empire, since the Sinatus, he was a farmer. He'd leave the farm and go serve his country and then go back to farming until the soil. That was what Washington's view was of American politics. And he set an example very early on. But over time, that example was forgotten. And now you've got Joe Biden as president who's been there.

Get this now. He was 29 years old when he was elected. 30 when he was sworn in. Concertially youngest age he could be Senator. His whole adult life has been in Washington. How could he possibly really understand the fact challenges that everyday people face, because he's been so far away from it.

And just the opposite, he's a creature of that swamp, and it is a swamp, and it's the same old people, and it's them against us. Let me ask you, you know, when sometimes you say, there's crooked cops, right? And then, well, you know, there's crooked pastors, right? There's crooked preachers, you know, there's crooked accountants, there's crooked pastors, right? There's crooked preachers. You know, there's crooked accountants.

There's greedy, capitalist, all the Hillary. What I'm saying is, is the percentage of crookedness higher in the job of a career politician than any other occupation? That's what I wanted. You know what I'm asking? Exactly. There's always a few bad apples always.

In every industry, but I wonder if the percentage of bad apple and politician is higher than other industries. What would you trying to say. There's always a few bad apples always in every industry But I wonder if the percentage of bad up bad up on politician is higher than other industries What would you say to that? I'd say yes, and I'd say part of it is because a lot of the crookedness is legal They make the rules that benefit themselves Remember that the rules are unfair and wrong, but they benefit themselves and therefore they're legal But it's crooked because it ain't right but the most crooked is that the actual uh... senator representative is that the lobbyist is that the campaign finance person is that

the person pulling the strings is that the people donating the money is that the coke brothers is that george sorrows like who is the most corrupt in all this well i think it's a system i think they it's a system and a lot of the things that you refer into the people you're talking about our breaking laws are just involved in the way the system is set up people don't like the idea of

public funding for elections okay but i wonder if that would not be a better play where you take money completely out of politics because you they pander to their political donors and the new politics now is you have the grassroots contributors They panned her to their political donors. And the new politics now is, you have these grassroots contributors.

And Obama started this. First I thought this was a very good new development because he was able to encourage people, everyday people to send small-dollar checks. And so- Well Bernie made his own, it is Mark. And AOC now, right? But then the political right president

Trump raises a lot of money that way and a lot of conservative Republicans do. So initially, I thought this is really going to be good, because it's giving people, every day people more of a voice. But here's what it's done. It's created further division. Because if you even look like you're, you have an open mind about the other side's point of view, you're going to run the risk of losing your donors. They won't send you checks anymore. So it's almost better for you to be even more frightened against the other side. And both sides will do this because it generates support among their donors. I don't think that's going to change any time soon.

I don't think so. And the reason why I don't think it's going to change any time soon is the following. What percentage of career politicians, what percentage of our politicians today, and I'm talking Congress Senate governors, okay, take those three. What percentage of them have been in politics more than 10 years is majority's over 10 years or majority's less than 10 years. More than 10 years. Okay, so what in close? What percentage would you say is more than 10 years? Oh 60% 70% 70% 70% it's not gonna happen. You're in someone I'm saying it's not gonna happen. They're in too deep. You're in too deep. Well, that's what they do. Yeah, it's not gonna happen you're in someone i'm saying it's not gonna happen there in two deep it's you're

in two deep there's a lot that's what they do yeah it's not gonna have a young freshman senator i'm gonna come in and i'm a change washing they're gonna do one of two things to have a backseat buddy yeah they're gonna they're either gonna they're either gonna you know destroy the guy's reputation or they're going to fallen you know already gonna say you have two choices bro you had to fall in line or we're gonna do this to you which one you and there's got to be somebody that goes and has a conversation with them. It's a tough gig But the differentiator these days is social media look at AOC. Yeah, she hasn't exactly fallen in line with Nancy Pelosi or anything like that So, you know look at Tulsi Gabbard, you know, I just

Social media these days is the great equalizer before you left politics. It's a very good point Social media wasn't really that prevalent. So now if people don't agree with you, it's like, fuck all you guys. I'm going to my millions of followers to raise money in. Not a fact. That's what AOC just did. Here's a news week story. AOC slams Tucker Carlson as trash after he calls a rich white lady.

Representative AOC has referred to Foxon, so Tucker Carlson has a creep after he falsely claimed that she was not a person of color, but instead a rich and tidal white lady, Carson insisted that A.O.C. was white despite her shade while discussing the upcoming book take up space. The unprecedented A.O.C. Carlson took an exception to the book. Books author writing that the Congresswoman had fully out loud white female asking whether they are referring to a trans thing because arguing that no one has done more personally to degrade American womanhood AOC responded by Sharon Klob of Carlson making the claim to Twitter alongside the caption, this is the type of stuff you say when your

name starts with a P and ends with a Dejo. Okay, and referring to the Spanish language term, Pendejo, right, is what she's talking about. But what do you think about AOC and her rights? She's come up. She's got nearly 50 million Twitter followers, and when she talks, she gets millions of views. How do you think that happened?

She's a generational leader. She's speaking to her generation. I have two daughters, my older one, 25, not exactly all in an AOC, but a politics, not unlike some of that Bernie Sanders type socialist politics that sounds good, but realistically is ridiculous, doesn't work. But she's a generational leader and she's taken full advantage of the new mode

of communications through social media, which she's saying they're those an example of how these elitists, and she's now become part of the new mode of communication through social media, which she's saying there, those are an example of how these elitists, and she's not become part of the elite. She's got a different backing, but she's part of the elite now. How these elitists want us to believe stuff that we know our common sense tells us isn't true. So, I mean, if you look at AOC,

Tucker Carlson's not altogether wrong in how he said what she is. I mean, she's from the suburbs, came from a nicer area. It wasn't raised in the Bronx where she represents. And can you say this, but she's looks to me when I see her, she has light skin. So she's saying she's a woman of color, but she seems.

But is he making the same mistake that you admitted making the same mistake when you said that you were more black that Obama? She's like skin. I think she looks Hispanic. Yeah, I don't. I don't. Definitely Latina. Yeah, but I'm just saying this goes down to the neo-racism weight race card. I know you have strong feelings on that. Yeah.

I'm just putting that out there. She can't. She capitalizes off of opportunities like this. She's a total capitalist. You have to realize. Yeah. Except her method of capitalism is different. She capitalizes of any moment to play the victim card

to get her audience to say, you know, he's this and hey, this is why we need to come together. She's a very, very good young, up-and-coming star of a politician. She's a very good politician. You gotta give it to her. Less than 10 years, clearly. She said most politicians, 70% of them.

I think, do not be, how, the poll operates right now, she's 32 right now. I think she's 32 or 30, you know, her name keeps coming up. Age, AOC, age is 32. Yeah, she's 32, October 13. and she's a liberal come on aoc were five days apart she's thirty two

what does that say about her that that you had a very big in the horse and that's a thirty percent that screws it up because there's no way you're gonna hold that balance there's nothing about her that's balance she's not she's not one that's willing to be is this the new politician someone that doesn't bend for their party There's nothing about her that's balanced. She's not one that's willing to do it. But is this the new politician, someone that doesn't bend for their party, that just builds up a massive social media? I mean, you can compare her to being like a Jake Paul

or Logan Paul, where they're like, look, I don't give a shit about you, Dana White, UFC. I don't care about you, Boxers. I got my own following. I'm gonna go make my money. The people are gonna follow me. And get in line or don't get in line. I'm doing my own thing.

It's social media has been the great equalizer these days. Look at her career right now. No, I think that's Friday, what you're saying is right. And she speaks for her generation. She's appealing and I could see where people would follow her. But I think what's other carol in this, carol's in this saying, I want to defend him only because, it's my understanding, was brazen the suburban area

Not in the Bronx in the hood like she's claiming or she maybe she doesn't claim it But and while she has every right to express her views and and support the people of her Community and seems to be doing that in many ways because that district designer has always been real far left She's in some ways What she accuses other people of being privileged. She doesn't come from there. And so she's she has skill and talent. Privileged side. I get. Is she privileged?

It wasn't she a waitress before this or before she was working out of you. I think she was working as Starbucks as a, you know, barista just like ten years ago. Came from money or anything like that. Clearly not. The thing they're talking about the other day, she was flying first class

and she booked the flight on first class and she was getting key to say, now you don't want to sit with the common people, you want to sit in the first class with rich people. She's going to get, and the reason why she's going to get that hate, grew up from Bronx, AOC, who beat high ranking Democrat Joe Crowley,

faces questions over her working class background after it's revealed. She grew up in a wealthy suburb north of New York City. But his article is like five years ago. It is five years ago. It's a 20 years old. It's a 20 years old working class. Clemsch has made 40 minute commute from Bronx, which goes again, but her architect father bought a house in a wealthy Westchester County in 1991.

Ocasio Cortes went on to attend Boston University and attend intern for Ted Kennedy. Yeah, there you go. Well, I stand by what I say. That's not representative of the Bronx. I mean, I came from the city of Chicago. I wish I could have been an intern of it for a U.S. Senator when I was coming up

before I went to college. Now, I don't mean to say that this is some negative thing about her, but she's had some, that part of the Democrat Party points their fingers at white guys and other people for being privileged. And yet their background is no different of the very people that they point fingers at. That's the only point I'm trying to say. But if you're asking me, she's the new form of political leader today, no question about it.

She is. And social media gives people up whatever their political viewpoints might be, a certain freedom where if they can build up support like you've done here with your podcast, you can be a separate individual entity and independent. And that could in the long run, maybe serve our democracy in a good way. Well, the analogy there is like we are no longer beholden to the mainstream media or the mainstream big government if you can create your own lane like a P.B.D. or like a Rogan or like an AOC. The world is yours. Exactly. Today it's this is the only difference though. You have to realize what's going on today which is scary. Today for the first time 40 years ago, complainers didn't have the mic.

40 years ago, you didn't hear complainers having a mic. We heard from doers, is what it was, right? Whoever spoke was a doer, whoever had the limelight was a doer. Today, the world is a little bit confused because complainers can get up there and sell a great argument in a convincing way and recruit other complainers. And that mic today is very, very loud

and they're better recruiters and doers. Here's why. A lot of times a doer will do the following. Here's the weakness of a doer. The weakness of a doer is the doer eventually goes and says, you know what, I don't even wanna, you know that whole argument, if you are seeing arguing with a, you know, if your wrestle with a pig, you know,

how does that same go? If you wrestle with a pig, you're to get some mud on you. Yeah, you're gonna end up being the same thing, right? So, so a lot of times if you argue with somebody that's just a, you know, person that makes no sense, others are sitting there saying, why are you even defending yourself, right? Argue with an idiot and look in the mirror, basically.

Yeah, you are the idiot. So why are you associating yourself with an idiot? So a doer will say, you know what I'm good at man, I'm gonna leave. But this guy's not gonna stop talking to complainer. The complainer's gonna keep going, going, going, going. And others will interpret that and say, did you see the complainer had a point? He won because the other guy walked away. Where in reality the doer just said, I don't have time for you. I got to go build my business. I got to go into the arena. I got to go get the hate. I got to go try to build the economy so other people can have jobs and see what I can survive and still raise

a family and still raise kids and still do all the stuff that I'm doing. So the only difference today with the great equalizer of the Mike is a complainer with a very persuasive way of communicating could baptize more people into the mindset of a complainer than a doer. Well, I don't know, because let me give you a different perspective. Sure. Because nobody argues and debates with more complainers than you. You have socialists and communists come on and you have great arguments and disagreements with them.

And one of the things that you say is let the audience decide because I would I would classify a socialist in America today as a Complainer, right? but You're able to have these very impactful conversations and Yeah, they might make a point, but you're oftentimes going to make a way more valid point And then the audience can decide who really is the idiot in that conversation. Do I have a point there?

No, you have a very good point there. I agree with you that there are a lot of like listen, take Rogan, Rogan will bring anybody and have a conversation with them, right? And the audience has to decide what they have to say. And AOC today, her argument today is creating momentum because of what's going on. I can't tell you how many parents I'm speaking to and they say to follow.

Here's how many parents I'm speaking to. And I'll say, so what's your biggest struggle right now with your kids? Oh my gosh, my daughter thinks the OCs are hero. My son is obsessed with the OCs, it's their hero. Said there's nobody like someone, this young person here that's coming up, it's their hero, it's their hero. Right? And why? They're right. You know, this young person here that's coming up, it's their hero, it's their hero, right? And why?

They're right, you know, and you talk to the kids. So tell me, why are you, why are you such a big fan of AOC? You don't think these rich people? And I always ask you to open up the questions of these young people that are between, you know, 18, 17 to 28 years old. I say, so what do you think my capitalist? Con. All they care about is money.

That's exactly why AOC is going to go after them. That's why this, and you're sitting there saying, got it. And they have wealthy parents. And not necessarily wealthy parents, but parents who are upper class who are making money who are going to school, you know, parents who tend to believe in capitalism. They tend to believe in capitalism,

but their kids are being convinced by this. So again, this tool, social media, is allowing people to convert and complainer sometimes. So I guess the challenge would be to follow it. So your question poses leads to a challenge. The challenge will be for doers to be a little bit more louder. Okay? Just like you.

Yeah, you know how sometimes they say, you know, stop posting these pictures. I'm not going to post anything. Okay. I'm going to post a regular one. I don't want to deal with that. So I don't want to deal with it, right? But you know what, no, you have to keep posting. You have to keep posting because I want my kid to look up

to a person to say, I want to go make an impact and I want to go build a good life and you realize the older you get, money matters more. It just does. Money matters more, the older you get. Raising kids yesterday, we have a couple with us that were spending time with them the after-night, send a video to yesterday

when I'm talking to them, doing the face time with you, that was on the, we're spending time with them the afternoon. I sent a video to yesterday when I'm talking to them. I'm doing the face time with you. God was setting next to me. And, you know, the cost of raising kids today, the cost of having a family today. It ain't cheap today to have a family. It's a lot of work to have a family. It's very complicated to have a family.

So, I just think doers need to be a little bit louder. Power to those who are doing it, who question everything. Well, look at Elon Musk. There's no bigger doer than him these days and that guy's got the bully pulpit. And he is so incredibly important and another guy that has to be constantly challenged and protected because they're going to keep going after this guy, you know, respect to him for not backing down. He posted a picture of the other guy.

He's got such a great sense of humor. He posted a picture of the other guy. Go on his Twitter account. He posted a very funny picture of the other day. I don't know if you saw it or not. It was a picture of 1980s phone booth versus today. Did you see that? Go to that picture. He posted. God, I love this guy, sense of humor. Right? The click on that phone booth in 1992. Yeah. Phone booth in 2022. He is not wrong. He is not wrong. Not for sure. Go ahead. You're gonna have to do a shout out to another group of the fellowship

the doers. Okay. I'm in the trucking industry. I work for this company called CDL 1000. I don't buy Andrew Sopco. Ukraine and immigrant-grade Americans success story like you. Truckers and the truckers up in Canada. Freedom fighters.

These people are hardworking men and women. Go to work every day. They drive long, lonely roads, long hours, delivering the food we put on a table, clothes that we wear, the building materials for the houses we live in and the buildings we rent from. And now they're trying together to have their voices heard in their capital. And they're facing the elitist ruling class in Canada. And yet I do believe that their example, it's frustrating to see how they're being treated, but their example is a powerful example of doers, people who work hard, getting their voices heard.

You know, AOC and that group of young liberals and complainers, as you say, what a church will say about young people. If you know, if you're not a liberal, when you're young, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative, when you're older, you're a brain. I'm confident history will repeat itself and our kids, including my daughters, will have a little bit more common sense as they have more life experience. And God bless her for what she's doing out there advocating for her views. I'm not so sure she's living that socialist lifestyle. They advocate either as Bernie Sanders because he's worth millions, isn't he? But regular everyday people, forgotten people, solid Americans are starting to rise up.

Parents at school boards, truck drivers, and can't know. That's great to see. It is great to see. And they're gonna save our country. And they're gonna put pressure on their political leaders who are gonna back down because most politicians are afraid of the people, they don't trust the people and if the people rise up and recognize their being lied to those politicians will will hear them

and they'll adjust. What do you think about the way true those handling Canada? Terrible. That guy's an elitist snap. Somebody gonna kick his ass. I shouldn't say that so I'm just saying something but he's over there lying. He's calling those truckers Nazis. You might have some idiot out there with a swastika, but those are hard work in men and women who love their country. They're not Nazis, and he knows it. They're doing talking points that come from political analysts and consultants, and they put that stuff out there to mislead the public, just like Russian collusion, some of the other stuff, my own experience. I can see it. I know it. So I don't like him at all.

I think he's terrible. And he's a guy's the son of a former prime minister. He's never done any heavy lifting in his life. He's never. He's a former son of a former prime minister. Pierre Trudeau is his father. Well, no, no, it's, uh, I thought you were saying he's the son of a former prime minister Castro. I thought that's where you went. Oh, no, true. I got you. Yeah. Trudeau. Okay. Former prime minister of Canada. So he grew up as an elitist and, you know, and living the good life. Never did any real work and the idea that truck drivers who do real work, who bring us the food that we ate and all the other stuff that we need, that he'd be trading them that way, offends me.

And he is a member of a political party in Canada that would be the member of, would be the political party. How was a member of here in America? Did you see that video with the cops, the trampled over that old of here in America? Did you see that video with the cops that trampled over that old lady, the horse? Did you see that video? I'm not seeing the video. Can you play that video?

It's very disturbing, by the way. Uh, uh, watch what happens here. Come on through. Come on through. What is happening here, Jesus? What is this lady doing? Traveling? Traveling horses?

Traveling? Traveling? Traveling horses, traveling, traveling, traveling. You're going over the lady. What the hell is that? They just trampled on lady. They just trampled on lady. They just fully trampled on lady. This is in Canada. This is in Canada.

I think the truckers broke down. You know, you saw this in Australia. You never thought this would happen in Canada But the thing with when you see these videos with cops. I can't believe I have a hard time believing that all these cops fully agree with Trudeau So you know what I'm saying like I have a very hard time believing that so imagine the job that you have to do Will you disagree with the way the guys that you have to do, but you disagree with the way the guys treating everybody there.

It's the same as the SS in 1945. It's just they're sitting back and they're quiet. You look at the video, there was from the same protest, there was a video of cops beating a woman with a butt of a rifle. The woman got pulled over on the side of the cops. They were on top of her and they started beating her with the butt of this rifle.

And it's like they're, they're, they need to speak up and say something or else they're gonna become a real problem. And they're gonna become the SS and the Brown shirts. It's because they're afraid to speak up and speak their mind. They just do what they're told and obey the orders. You know, it's like this,

everybody believes in back the blue and I don't, I don't debate that, right? But you can only do that so far. At some point, the blue have to stand up and realize that they're more than you can only do that so far. At some point, the blue have to stand up and realize that they're more than just somebody who's given an order. They have to speak up and stand up and say, no, this isn't what we signed up for.

This isn't what we took our oath for. This isn't who we are. Yeah, I mean, what are you gonna do? They're now towing trucks. Now, they're impounding them. And they're hardening, that's still gonna backfire on them because you need those guys to keep driving these trucks. Truck drivers don't have the most luxurious lifestyle, you know, they're not around the most. They're away from

their kids. They don't see their wives and kids for god knows weeks at a time, days at a time. You need those guys to work. Those are not people that you want a discouragement from working. Everybody's affected by it. What say you're putting up up there? We hear you're concerned for people on the ground after the horse's despair to crowd. Anyone who fell, got up and walked away. We are unaware of any injuries.

A bicycle was thrown at the horse further down the line and caused the horse to trip. The horse was unenjured. What are we supposed to do with that? This is the statement from Ottawa police about trampling the woman. That's how they responded to it. Fascinating. I'm what's going on over there, man. How's the woman doing? I'm glad to hear about the horse, but how's the woman doing?

It's that's really the solution. You're your friend that you're working with in logistics. Yes, from Ukraine, how to change the world. Andrew Sam. So what what do you you things going to happen to Ukraine when you're seeing you know Biden saying hey if you don't attack you know Ukraine I will attend a summit but if you do I will not you know the Ukraine Prime Minister saying stop calling this and you're scared to hell out of my people just leave it alone we got this Putin's not going to do anything we're in communication where are you at with that?

Consumer prices one up 7.5% a January Fleshing is out of control people go to the store every day and they buy stuff they see higher prices Put gas in the car they see it They look to their leaders and they understandably Blamed them Biden's facing this now, his approval rating is really low. His politics is very bad. And nothing like a good war, okay? To help you in your domestic politics.

Now, do I think Biden is gonna lead us into war over Ukraine? I do not. We will not go to war with Russia over Ukraine. Do I think that there's a real risk that Russia might invade the eastern part of Ukraine? Yes, they did it in Crimea. It's very possible. Do I think Biden is exaggerating the threat

and his administration is exaggerating that? So much so that when he calls Zelensky, the Ukrainian president, and Zelensky tells him stop scaring our people, it's not as bad as you're saying it is. Do I think that's cynical politics? By Biden, I do. If you're asking me to predict an outcome, I don't know that I have one, but I think it's a combination of Putin wants to flex his muscles and he's

fearful of NATO-expanied further with Ukraine. And I think there are a lot of ethnic issues in that part of Ukraine, where historically, if you're knowing about that part, Stalin had populated a lot of Russian nationals to that part of the Ukraine during the famine in the late 1930s with his failed collectivization, socialist policies that were starving the Ukrainian people because they weren't producing enough crops. So these are real complicated. You don't think nothing's gonna happen.

You think he's just trying to, he's bluffing. You think Putin is just bluffing? I don't, it's hard for me to predict an outcome. I don't know what the outcome's gonna be. Do I think it's possible he might do it? He did it in Crimea, he could do it. Do I think he's, if I bet on it, what I say he's gonna do it,

when he's facing the economic sanctions that he'd be facing from the United States and Western Europe, I would think he's not going to do it. And then I think part of what he's doing too is he's co-using up to China, his relationship with China to build a stronger relationship with China because I think Russia, Putin, Russia feel they've been isolated in the power game. So I think it's I'm hoping that it's more posturing and positioning than an actual invasion,

but if you're asking me to bet on it, I don't know. I don't know what the outcome is going to be. Talsi Gabbard said she warrants the military industrial complex once a war in Ukraine. This is a political insider story. Former Congressman Talsi Gabbard, Equate former President Eisenhower's famous warning on Saturday saying the Neal cons war mongers, have spent years stoking the new cold war with Russia and have now brought us to the Brink of Ukraine. This serves their own interests and lines the pocket of the military industrial complex

with trillions of dollars. Let's not be sheep. And then she told Tucker later on, what we have unfortunately is Democrats, Republicans, mainstream media, the Washington elite, essentially in the pockets of the military industrial complex. Do you agree with that? I think it's a lot of truth to what she's saying. You know, again, it's easy to be anti-Russian in the United States.

We were raised to fear the Soviet Union, and for many, rightful reasons. My father fled communism when he, after World War II, and didn't go back to his native Yugoslavia because he wanted to come to a country that he perceived as being free and mostly was. But after the fall of the Berlin Wall and after the dissolution of the former Soviet Union, promises were made to the new Russian country and their government, to Yeltsin, by NATO, about expansion, NATO expansion. And while Poland, I think rightfully should be in NATO, in some of the other countries, and maybe Ukraine, to some of the other countries,

and maybe Ukraine, to some point, that remains to be seen. But a lot of these promises have been broken. And when the United States and NATO decided to break up a sovereign country, Yugoslavia, where my father came from, over Kosovo, when they decided that they were gonna force a sovereign country to give up a portion of its country,

because of the ethnic situations there. They created a precedent and they basically told the Russians of no consequence because historically the Russians have always been allies of the Serbs in that part of the region with the complicated politics of the old out of an empire. Your people have been screwed by them. They are median genocide and all the rest. And so when NATO and the United States decided to break up a sovereign country, the way they did, that was a message to Putin and the Russians. You can't trust these people, we can't work with them. And so a lot of what you're seeing is a manifestation of those relationships that go back 25 years. So if you're asking me to predict an outcome, I don't

really know what she is saying. Do I believe that? Absolutely. I sat on the House Armed Services Committee, and I voted. I plead guilty to this. I voted for that Warni Rack. Remember, sitting there as a young congressman, listening, watching all these joint chiefs of staff generals under oath, testify, classified hearings about the weapons of mass destruction that were there. And I'm asking myself, remember, could they be lying? Because if they were there, that seems like we should get in there and go get those weapons of mass destruction and get them away from Saddam Hussein.

So if it's true, I have to vote for this war. Hillary voted for the war. And I remember looking at Hillary, I'm thinking of myself, could they be lying? I don't have enough experience here. So I want to look to see what other senior members in the Congress are doing who would know better. And what better person than her? She was the former first lady and she was very close to her husband when it came to the

governing side. She would know whether or not these generals are lying or not. Well, they lied, right? She voted for the war. I voted for the war. Bernie Sanders didn't. I remember thinking, man, act like something else. He was right.

We were wrong. But we were lied to. So when Tulsi Gabbard says what she says about the political industrial complex and those neo-conservatives, who like to get us involved in foreign ventures and halibut and those contractors and all the rest, do I believe it? I absolutely do. Do you think those generals actually lied or the information that they received from the people higher up, you know, the military industrial complex was feeding them misinformation because it's not like these generals got rich off of this,

right? No, your points will take it. It's a lot more complicated than whether or not they just blatantly lied to you. Somebody was lying along the way. They may have gotten a lot of misinformation, faulty intelligence, maybe just fake intelligence. Not sure.

All I know is there were no weapons of mass destruction there and we voted for that war predicated on that. Someone was wrong. Let's do, let's do speedruns. So here's what I want to do. This is the last thing that will wrap up. We're coming to the end of it here. It's I'll give you a name, give me one word that comes to my okay. Andrew Cuomo. Andrew Cuomo, the former governor. He did it because if he didn't do it he wouldn't quit. Okay Mark Vargas. I love Mark Vargas. Mark Vargas was the mystery man who helped me come out of prison. Trump.

I love Trump. I love Trump. I got to know him on celebrity apprentice. Really liked him. People don't realize that he's a real kind man. When you know him, I saw him do things off camera that were very kind. He was very kind of my little girls during a very difficult time. I love Trump.

And by the way, what he did for me benefited him politically not at all. He didn't have to do that. He gets no benefit, but he did it. He saw something wrong and ended it. A lot of people in politics are not like that. Trump's very different. Obama. Very disappointed Obama.

I'll answer that by saying, one of my colleagues in prison after Obama didn't cut me loose Asked me what about your friend God what about your friend Obama? He didn't give you a clemency My answer was I'm never voting for that guy again The Santhus Up and comrade leader in a Republican party He won't be Trump trouble be him if you want he won't run Trump's the big dog right leader in a Republican party, he won't be Trump trouble be him if he runs he won't run.

Trump's the big dog right now in the Republican party. He won't run. He will not run again. Interesting. Big male. My father-in-law, who's been very good to me in many ways, very bad to me in many ways. I love him. I do.

He's my father-in-law. He's got a lot of good qualities. He's 83 years old and I marvel at how well he's doing at 83 and I'm very happy about that. Rahman manual. I always like Rahman manual. He's a tough guy. He's a doer. He's a member of the fellowship of the doers that you talked about, the Teddy Roosevelt talked about. He's ruthless though, very ruthless and the means justify the ends as far as that guy's concerned. Stephen Schwartzman in writes right sentence book, you know, who's Steven Schwartzman?

I don't. I mean, he's a billionaire and he says, you know, at one time, you know, I got invited to meeting with Ramamanuel and Obama and he said, we had the biggest shouting match, cursing at each other, he says, I realized how strong Ramamanuel was, but I knew I had to learn how to negotiate with this guy

because he's not going away. He's on his on Obama's side. Well, something in that Emmanuel family blood, his brother's like the biggest agent in Hollywood. was, but I knew I had to learn how to negotiate with this guy because he's not going away. He's on his own. Something in that Emmanuel family blood. Both of them are like the biggest agent in Hollywood. And there's another brother who's like a physicist or something. No, there's three of them as I understand it. There's the agent Hollywood agent, the SRAM, and there's the ethicist.

And I refer to the ethicist as the black sheep of the family. How about Anderson Cooper? Well, he wasn't nice to me when I came home. So that was disappointing. So I low marks for him. Okay. Bob Menendez. I knew Bob Menendez when we were in Congress together.

And Bob Menendez had the law been applied to me. My case, the way it was applied to Menendez, my case would have been thrown, not just like his. His case was the judge threw it off for insufficient evidence. I should have got the same treatment George Ryan George Ryan is an old school Illinois politician. He was a Republican, but pretty much like Democrat machine type values He's an old man. He's lost his wife. He did his time. I Don't think that I

Don't think that He was innocent. Fitzgerald Patrick. Evil, wicked, a man who has abused his power to frame people, evil and wicked. And I think he's done it to a lot of blind people too. Interesting. Mike Madigan. Mike Madigan, all about politics and himself. What is cynical is they come politically, great skill,

hard worker, very smart, very disciplined. I think a good dad, but he squandered an opportunity to do a lot of good for people because it was all about his power. And he's heard Illinois, where the highest tax state in the nation, because of him, little Caesar, Madigan. But he's going out, the Berlin Wallis finally fallen. And maybe there's a new day in Illinois, though, with this

Pritzker as governor, it's not. It's not. It's not. Okay. So does future look bright for Illinois? As of today, no. Is there hope in this coming election? Yes.

Prediction for presidency in 2024, who becomes a president? Donald Trump. You think so. Very much so. Really? Yes. What's for presidency in 2024. Who becomes a president? Donald Trump. You think so. Very much so. Really? Yes. What's your level of certainty? 68%.

68%. 65%. What a number. Do you think Biden runs again? I don't think so. What do you think? I don't think he'll be there. And I don't think Kamala will be there.

No, I don't think Biden runs again. I think Trump wins. There's a historical precedent to this. In 1824, a strong leader like Trump, Andrew Jackson, ran for president, and the election was thrown into the House of Representatives close. There were four people in that race. Jackson was the people's choice, really. And at the same kind of constituency, Trump has working people who felt disgruntled by the elitists in their ruling class. It was stolen from them at the Capitol because Henry Clay, the death at Randforth,

made a political deal supporting the son of the second president, John Quincy Adams, was the son of John Adams. In exchange for that, he became the Secretary of State. They was called the Krabbarcan. And that's what it was known. Four years later, all those Jacksonians were energized and ready to go, and he came back in one overwhelmingly.

I think it's going to repeat itself with Trump. A couple more names for it if we have time. Being that former governor of Illinois, Chicago comes to mind, Michael Jordan. I had dinner with Michael Jordan once when I was governor. He's fantastic. Of course, we love Michael Jordan. I mean Michael Jordan, Elvis, Muhammad Ali, you can't get any better than that. He's got a pippin. Not so much.

Did you ever have the opportunity to hang out with Dennis Rodman? No, but you know Dennis Rodman and I have one thing in common. You know what it is? Well got fired from the apprentice. Well said, we've got fired by Donald Trump on the year of it's the library apprentice. Right, this has been great folks. If you have not seen the documentary, we're gonna put the link below for you guys to go see it.

And what's the best way to find joy? Are you active on Twitter? I am on my Twitter, real blogoivich, I think at real blogoivich, I'm on Facebook. Do you know what my Facebook stuff is? We'd love you to be, I'm gonna put all of that stuff on the description. We've got all of that stuff below. Having below having said that appreciate you for coming up. It's was great. Really enjoy

Thank you everybody. Bye. Bye. Bye