PBD Podcast - Jeffrey Toobin | PBD Podcast | Ep. 279

Episode Date: June 22, 2023

In this Episode, Jeffrey Toobin joins the PBD Podcast! Get Your Tickets for The Vault 2023 NOW ⬇️⬇️ The BIGGEST EVENT in VT History! *TOM BRADY, MIKE TYSON & PATRICK BET-DAVID on one stage!* https://thevaultconference.com/ Buy Jeffrey's new book "Homegrown: Timothy McVeigh and the Rise of Right-Wing Extremism": https://bit.ly/3XfSKlZ Want to get clear on your next 5 business moves? https://valuetainment.com/academy/ Join the channel to get exclusive access to perks: https://bit.ly/3Q9rSQL Download the podcasts on all your favorite platforms https://bit.ly/3sFAW4N Text: PODCAST to 310.340.1132 to get added to the distribution list Patrick Bet-David is the founder and CEO of Valuetainment Media. He is the author of the #1 Wall Street Journal Bestseller Your Next Five Moves (Simon & Schuster) and a father of 2 boys and 2 girls. He currently resides in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/pbdpodcast/support

I know this life man for me. Yeah, why would you plan on Goliath when we got that David value came in giving values contagious this world on your panoras we can't no value that hated I'd be running home you look what I've become.

I'm the I'm the one. I'm me. Talk'm the one. Army. Talk about the book. So we have a special guest here with us. You know what I love about this podcast? It's one week we'll have a guest and there'll be a group that's very happy and there'll be a group that's very unhappy. Then the unhappy group a couple weeks later

are incredibly happy and a happy group is now unhappy. It's always great so you can, you know, make anybody happy. Today's guest is going to piss a lot of people off and they're gonna say they've already saying why are you having somebody like that on the me let me let me formally introduce our guest here today uh... jeffery ross tuban jeff or jeffery ross tuban is an american lawyer author blogger long time legal analyst for cnn

during the iran contra refer to been served as an associate council on the investigation in the Department of Justice. He moved from government and the practice into a law full-time writing during the 90s when he published his first books. He wrote the New York, he wrote for the New Yorker from 1993 to 2020, that's 27 years he was fired after an on-camera during a Zoom video conference

call with his co-workers. he continued to serve as a legal analyst for CNN for two years. Tuban has written several books. We just found that out of the eight books he's written, six of them are New York Times best sellers, but again, who's counting? Including accounts on the 1970s Patty Hearst kidnapping. And her time with the SLA, the OJ Simpson murder case, and Clinton Lewinsky

scandal, the latter two adapted into a television series of FX American crime stories with the Simpson's case premiere in 2016. Is that the one with Cuba gonna junior? Yeah, which was pretty wild. A few other things you need to know about him that on both sides, one side, I don't know how many years ago this was three or four years ago or five years ago when he's on there, confidently, you're saying, Roe V. Wade is done. It was so bad that Jim Agosta, not forget about Jim Agosta, who else was baking fun of you? You know, the comedian, what's his name? John, John Oliver. John Oliver. John Oliver. Look, I'm telling my daughter this. No, that's not what it is.

But you were like, no, it's over. So you called it. It happened. You were right. Your peers didn't agree with you. And you're not somebody that was for it, that it was happening. But you said, it was going to happen. At the same time, you know, we have to give you credit. I've been in sales for since 21 years old. So I've done a lot of those that 23 years. I think we're on the same page that we miss conference calls more than Zooms. Because when it was on conference calls,

people had no clue what you and I were doing. Unfortunately, Zooms were a little bit more uncomfortable, a more revealing of what we're doing. So obviously, the whole world find out what happened with you. That was a story that was trending. S&I was all over the place. But whether you like, whether you don't like them, whether you agree with them, whether you don't agree with them,

you're an absolute heavyweight in a media space. The last 30 years, you've done a lot of great work and it's great to have you on a podcast. Well, it is a thrill to be here. Yes. So much for having me. So let's address the elephant and the room and it will get into all the stories here.

So first, when that happened, you're saying you had no clue the camera was on, you had none of that stuff, and you've talked about this multiple, multiple times. My question isn't about your apology. You've already addressed and actually liked the way you did it. There's some people that didn't like it. You just kind of said,

like, as a lawyer, I can't even defend this. I can't even say anything about it. I just, this is what I did. I'm manning up. I screwed up. It is what it is. I wish it would have kept me, but I understand their reason. And these guys brought us back. Some people said, why would you bring them back?

He should have never had the job. People for lesser things were fired. Megan Kelly's been critical of you. A lot of other people have been critical of you. But you owned up to it. You just said, this is what I did. My question is, what do you talk about during therapy for something like that?

Look, where to start? I did something wrong, period. And I am more sorry than I can say to everyone involved, the people on the call, my former colleagues, people who trusted me as a journalist. I've been working to restore my reputation since then. I, you know, as I say, I don't make excuses, I only make apologies. I'd like to think that, I mean, as we say in school, as we used to say in school,

I know this is on my permanent record, but I'd like to think it's not the only thing on my permanent record. And all I could do is offer a complete apology and try to get on with the work that I do. I would say this part from my perspective, okay. I don't think you can be in media for three decades without having some dirt that comes out on you.

Whether it's gonna be a DUI, you know, you remember it, who was a guy that was the best Monday night football guy and then he got a DUI leaving a restaurant as I was thinking about. How Michael's? How Michael's any address, I got something embarrassing to say I got a DUI, I copped me over. It doesn't matter who you are, whether it's any address? I got something embarrassing to say, I got a DUI cop hold me over. It doesn't matter who you are,

whether it's politics, media, all this stuff, you're eventually gonna do something that's gonna be screwed up. Yours happened to be something that every boy has gone through what you've gone through. Except most people get caught with their parents. It's not on a Zoom, so you're like the goat status of getting, you know, in the space that you went.

But the question I have for you is a very different question. I run an insurance company, we've licensed 45,000 agents. We saw the company last year, but one of the things that I had to learn as a CEO, when I ran an office with 66 agents, I knew everyone's dirt and it wasn't big dirt. And in all of a sudden, one of our best guys got a divorce and in all of a sudden,

one of our guys got a DUI. And all of a sudden, one of our guys, you know, we love this guy cocaine issues Boom, we lost them. Another guy went through meridol issues. Another guy went through drug issues None and an event. Everyone's like, why is this happening? I'm like listen Everybody sends in a different way. Everybody's gonna do some stuff that they're gonna do unfortunately some of them are gonna be Public and humiliating and we got to kind of go through it And it seemed like the bigger and bigger the company got, the more stories like this happened.

Was there a part of you? Because one guy called me one time and he says, do you know what that guy is doing? Do you know how what that are, guys? Don't ask that, listen. You claim you're a Christian. I do. Listen, man, you may want to not be that judgmental

because in about a couple years, it's going to be your turn. And you're going to want people to be a little bit more gentler on you, okay, when it comes down to your turn. Did at any point for you, did you kinda sit there and say, shit, this is pretty embarrassing. And I've been the one that's kinda been hard on that guy

and this guy and that guy and this guy. Did you buy yourself, I'm not talking wife and kids and all that stuff in college, just you versus you, like yourself. Did you say, you know what, as much as I don't like that guy, yeah, you know what, as much as I don't like that guy, yeah, you know, that guy also did something here, and that guy also did something here.

I guess none of us are perfect. I have to really work on becoming more forgiving because now I want people to be gentler on me. Did you ever go through that process? Uh, sure to answer, yes. Got it. I think, you know, when you have sinned publicly, you are aware of others who have sinned publicly.

I think one thing that I felt, I don't wanna say positively about is, and even back to the days when I was a prosecutor, I was never the lock them up and throw away the key kind of person. And that's not the kind of journalist I've been. I have written about people who have made mistakes, who have come back from them,

and written positively about that. So, my view has always been that, if you acknowledge what you did, if you try to make amends, try to apologize, then you get another chance. As people have said to me, you don't get a third chance. And I'm very aware of that in my own life. But I don't feel like of all the things you can accuse me of, and I think there are a lot, hypocrisy is not one of them. I'm not someone who has always been, you know, one strike and you're out kind of person.

And so in that respect, I think my reaction is consistent. Quick follow up right there. I've watched you on CNN for 20 plus years. So one thing that I'm obsessed with Jeffrey is the concept of legacy. We talked about reputation. I started my show when I started interviewing millionaires

and billionaires and financial advisors. And I asked them, all right, after you doing all the saving and all the investing and everything and the budgeting and the gifting and the philanthropy, I'm like, what's next? What's next? And it's legacy planning. They actually What's next? It's legacy planning. They actually call it a state planning, legacy planning.

So the question of legacy, one of my favorite people that I've ever read, their books is John Bogl, Jack Bogl, the founder of Vanguard. And he said, when I die, my one wish is that I die with my legacy intact. So you, you've been working in media 30 years, right? So Pat reads your bio. And of course, you've done all this work. Six-time New York best seller, and then it's like, oh, by the way,

you got cough jacking off on a Zoom call, by the way. That's part of your legacy, that's part of your reputation. You know, like the famous joke is like, you can build a thousand bridges and you fuck one goat, you're no longer a bridge builder, you're a goat fucker. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So very, very interesting. I didn't know that joke. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, Adam, for now, for now, now I, I, now I'll never forget, I'm afraid, yeah. To use a metaphor, some call you the goat. So, I mean, even in urban dictionary, there's a, like, you're familiar with this? I'm familiar with urban dictionary. I wasn't aware that I'm now. Oh, you're a pro.

I'm, am I in that? You go to Tupin and it'm now. Oh, you're a pro. I'm a M.I. You go to Tupin and it's fun. You get caught on Zoom. So this is part of your legacy. But I'm going somewhere with this free. Hold on. So, but we also understand that America likes a comeback story. We talk about this all the time.

Is that this is America. You get second chances. You can kill anybody, dude. You didn't do anything like felonious. Like you got caught doing what dudes do. You just happen to do it fucking in embarrassing fashion. You know, it's rough. My question is, everyone's going to have

that lowest point in their life. This is clearly your lowest point. What's your comeback story? What's your strategy? How can someone do with the lowest part of their life? The most embarrassing thing that could ever happen to you and make a comeback and own it and be on podcast and be like, yeah, you know, I did it. How can someone do with that?

Well, I guess my two ways. One is acknowledge and apologize. Not, you know, one of the things that, you know, I often thought, often thought, I've covered a lot of political scandals. And one of the lines that always irritated me was people would say, well, I'm sorry if you were offended, which is not a real apology. That's like blaming you.

I'm sorry because I'm sorry, because I did something wrong because there's no excuse. So in that respect, you know, not to try to equivocate about the wrong doing is just to completely acknowledge that there is no excuse and it was wrong. The second part is to get back to work, is to do the work that you do. And fortunately, I was allowed by CNN, by Simon and Schuster, who published this book, that to do the work that I do and do it well. And that's the way to come back. I mean, I'm incredibly proud of homegrown this book.

I, this book is the best work I can do and I think the reaction to it has, has been terrific. And that's, that's the way to, to try to come back. You know, there's a, there's a, there's, there's, you know, there's a camp out there that would say never apologize. Never, never say you're sorry. Own it, you did what you did, do not apologize.

Don't even own it, like there's that camp. What would you say to those people? I thought we were gonna talk about Donald Trump, yeah. What? I was gonna go, there we go. There we go. Someone who doesn't apologize, let's say. What would you say to that camp that's saying,

never apologize? That's not me. I mean, I apologize because I think it's the right thing to do. And, you know, I can't speak for other people. And obviously, you know, some people that's their approach, I can only do, you know, what I think is right for me. And I, it would never even have occurred to me, not to apologize.

Respect. I want to get right into it. If we can, I want to get into issues. That's what I want to do. No, I'd like to talk about this stuff that he was going to want. You want to talk about this stuff that he was going to want. Can I?

No. Let's see, this is what I'm talking about. You kind of got to, oh no, let's go back. Let's go back. Let's go back. So, let's go back. Vinnie, what was the first time you were caught? Yeah, I know this guy was.

I know this guy was. I'm sorry. I was Yeah, I know. I know that you're not. I'm sorry. I was on the hamper. My dad walked in. Thanks, thanks, giving your grandma. Vinny, people need to talk about it in the army. Oh, everyone in there. You know what's all good?

I appreciate Pat wants to take us to the issue. I'll say one thing, I mean, this sincerely. I appreciate you're saying acknowledge and apologize and get back to work. Because I agree with you when people say I'm sorry You were offended it puts on other people. It's funny I've always thought that when I heard that and the other thing that I get that I can't stand when I hear is But this is not who I am

Yes, it was for that moment and you need to own it and just move on from that and I really applaud that because it didn't mean You no longer had a Harvard Law degree didn't mean that you were no longer a classmate of a Lane of K again Didn't mean you no longer had six out of eight New York Times best sellers, and you were brilliantly blind on these issues. That didn't change. And I appreciate when you go out on the other side and say, hey, there's something more I can do here, and there's something I can do. It's like, you know, one of the bios I appreciate, it was Chuck Colson.

Now, you didn't commit a felony and a cover-up, and all that was the goo that was there. But he basically discovered a current imprisoned reform and to do something else good without a law license because he was disbarred. And I think there's far too few of those stories in America and there's a little tiny threat of that in what you just said. So Tom, when was the first time you were caught? All right, we got to give a ram off Thanksgiving. He already said it. All right, okay, phenomenal. Let's get right into it. Okay, thank you.

You're Jeff Rittu. So I got some issues I'm gonna go through. Obviously a lot of there is current events. I do wanna make it clear, guys. We're gonna put the link below to the book that's here. Homegrown, Timothy McVeigh and the rise of right-wing extremism, we're gonna talk about that obviously on today's podcast, if we can put it there.

But before we get into that, current events, okay. When you said, Roe v. Wade, okay. Now I'm telling you, and you said, you think this is gonna happen? No, I know it's done, it's over, it's this. And it's like, what is this guy talking about? It was discouraging to a lot of people, and then boom, it happens.

What's it because in your mind, you're sitting there saying, these three seats, presidents come and go. But these three seats, six to three or five to four, this stays for 20, 30 years, right? When you made a comment like that about Roe v. Wait, and then right before midterms, I don't know what the timeline was,

six weeks before midterms or whatever it was when they made the whole thing. You know, by the last two. Yeah, and it was supposed't know what the timeline was, six weeks before midterms or whatever it was when they made the whole thing. You know, by the last tune. Yeah, and it was supposed to be what a red wave and it ended up not being a red wave because America's like, listen, man, I would have been a red wave, but this thing that you guys did, probably not.

Some on the left end the right. It's not like it's just a left issue, you know, both sides. What made you be so confident at the time to say, I think this is gonna happen? Well, you know, I've covered the intersection of law and politics for my entire career. And, you know, abortion has been the most contentious issue between... And frankly, it is between left and right in this country.

And, you know, you have to go back to the 2016 campaign. And remember, Donald Trump as a private citizen was open about being pro-choice, in favor of abortion rights. So when he's running for the Republican nomination, he had to convince the evangelical community in particular that he was trustworthy on their issues. And so when he ran for president, he essentially outsourced the issue of judicial confirmations to a guy named Leonard Leo in the federal society, and they made a list of the judges that they were, that the president, that if Trump won, he was going

to appoint to the Supreme Court. And those judges were all clearly identified with the anti-Rovie Wade position. And this was an extremely effective thing that Trump did to ingratiate himself with the Republican Party because most of the Republican Party at this point is in an anti-abortion position. So, you know, Donald Trump said during the campaign, most of the republican party at this point is in an anti-abortion position so you know donald trump said during the campaign if i win i'm gonna will point judges who who will vote to overturn roe versus wait and what i think he meant by that was if he won he was going to a point judges

who would vote to overturn roe i mean that i mean that that's what matters more. And he appointed the three justices, Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, and Barrett, and they did what was expected of them. So it was not any great prediction of mine. It was just listening and watching what was going on and that, and it was predictable. And it's, I know you're saying it's predictable.

A lot of people on the right thought it was predictable, but why is it so many people on the left and see that being predictable? Well, I think, you know, Roe v Wade was 1973. There were a lot of uh... republican nominees since nineteen seventy three who turned out to be uh... supportive of roe v. Wade you know think about it john paul stevens appointed in nineteen seventy three by jerald ford anthony canady and santa deo conner appointed by ronald ragan

uh... david suitor appointed by Ronald Reagan. David Souter appointed by George Herbert Walker Bush, all of whom wound up being pro abortion rights on the court. So I think there was perhaps some sense that, well, when push comes to shove, the Trump appointees won't vote to overturn Roe v. Wade. I recognized, I think correctly, that the politics have really changed, that abortion was so central to Trump's appeal to the right in his campaign, that there was just no way he was going to point some, any justices who would wind up voting for Roe v Wade. So it really is about the evolution of the Republican Party. That in the 70s and 80s, there were a lot of pro-choice Republicans.

That is not the case anymore, particularly among Republicans who vote in primaries. And the difference that abortion rights has really become a party line issue in the way it wasn't in the past. And to kind of reference the story past, basically identifying was a CNN panel, hosted by Jim Acosta, you're on there, legal analyst, handful of other people,

and they're playing a John Oliver clip. And you were blunt, you're saying, rovers, handful of other people, and they're playing a John Oliver clip. And you were blunt. You're saying, Rovers' weight is now dead, done. Officially, this is in 2019, I believe? Well, yeah, okay. Okay, after Trump was a lack, yeah. Okay, okay, whenever it was,

but clearly years ahead of your time, you nailed it, you called your shot. And the way that you know I say that facts don't care about your feelings, the way that you said it was so blunt and so to the point, people were shocked on the panel. John Oliver, who he references,

like Jeffrey Tumors, the kind of guy that's just gonna tell his kid, you know, not, hey, I'm just gonna send my dog out to Pashers. Like, we took him to the park, we shot him in the face, he's dead now, right? Like, just blunt. So what kind of backlash did you get from people internally in your world saying, to be, how the hell could you say something like that?

It's offensive. Not really. I mean, I didn't get any backlash. I mean, one of the things that I think people don't understand, that, you know, I'm trying to remember, I mean, I worked for 20 years, so I can't, you know, account for every day, but, you know, once you establish that you know what you're talking about, people don't tell you, I imagine people said, wow, that was pretty definitive. You really think that's true. And frankly, one of the things I don't love about cable

news in terms of my own experience there is the whole prediction business. I mean, it's very nice that you are focusing on a correct prediction that I made. But I made plenty of wrong predictions, most prominently. And one that I have thought about a lot over the years was that Hillary Clinton was going to beat Donald Trump in 2016. And ever since then, the fact that I was so wrong about that has made me very cautious about counting Trump out at any point in any under any circumstances, even now.

I am very aware of how wrong I was in 2016. I would a lot of company in being wrong, but that's, you know, and, and, you know, I just think humility is really called for in terms of political predictions in this country. And that goes for 2024 as well. Right now with everything that's going on with the election. You're seeing the Santas, you're seeing Trump, you're seeing RFK, you're seeing Vivek, you're seeing, obviously Biden, Nuson was on Hannity, all this stuff.

A year from the Republican debate, I'm sorry, the general election, Republican versus Democrat when they face each other, who do you think is going to be on that stage? Do you think it is going to be a Biden Trump? It certainly looks that way. Do you think there's any chance Nusom gets in there? Zero. You're saying zero chance.

Zero chance. Tell me why, why do you think? Because, I mean, unless Biden withdraws, now there is no no chance that Newsom runs against Biden. Well, against, no, I totally agree with the against part. I agree, the against, but do you think, okay, did you see him on hand? I did not see him on hand. By the way, he showed up, he represented.

And to me, if you think about a guy, I left California because of Newsom, because of those policies, I'm not somebody that's senior senior senior, you know, great with these policies. I can't say that part. But if I were to say, if I have a choice between a Newsom or a Biden going on meeting with the enemy or anybody else representing the big stage, Newsom looks presidential, Biden looks like he's passed that.

So wouldn't Democrats want more a newsom denabiton? Okay, let me qualify what what what I was saying. I am assuming I mean Joe Biden has declared for re-election I mean he is a candidate Assuming he remains a candidate There's zero chance Newsom will will run it, we'll run against him. If Biden for some reason were to draw, fall down some stairs, break his hip, you know, what happens to people in their 80s, then definitely, I think, Newsym, Newsym might run. And then it would be a free for all. I mean, there would be a vice president

would run. Open primary. Yeah, there would be half a dozen candidates within a couple of weeks. But every sign I have is that Biden is going to remain the candidate. I think he's going to be a strong candidate for re-election. But I think he's going to be a strong candidate for re-election.

Yeah, I do. Why do you think? Well, first of all, most incumbents get reelected. It is unusual. I mean, Jimmy Carter lost, Donald Trump lost, but other than your loss, yeah. Seeing your loss. So it's, but most candidates get reelected. If the economy remains in a good place, if abortion, as I think it will, will remain a very big voting issue, especially for moderates and independence. There's a big difference between Donald Trump and Joe Biden on abortion in particular, and if the country is doing well economically, you know, I mean, you know, no candidate, or let me put it, every candidate

has problems. Joe Biden's problem is that he's old. But, you know, the country's gotten used to him, and he's not going to overcome that problem by becoming younger, but if he maintains the level of activity and involvement that he has now, I think he's going to be a strong candidate. So from a perspective of approval rating, one of the lowest ever approval rating he's got, right? Even as a person, let's just say, if you got a guy on your side and you're Republican, you're like, that's my president,

but he's got that kind of an approval rating, man, I'm concerned about putting this guy in as my starter, you're as a democratic side. You got a low approval rating, the percentage of Democrats that don't want you to run, the people on media, MSNBC CNN, that also don't want this guy to run, they would like him to step aside

and have somebody else run. It's not like it's just a Republican Fox news or, you know, bribe barter whoever these guys are saying that it's people on both sides are saying, by the way, I have to be honest with you. If I'm a Republican, I would much rather by run the Newsom run. I don't want to know Newsom run.

Newsom's the way for Newsom. I think that's it. I think that's it. I think that's it. Let me give you my argument. I want you to push back. That's why you're here. I don't want you to agree. So for me, I think one of the things

that some of the independence respected about Trump, they're like, where is the meeting? Who wants to do it? CNN? I'll come. That's enemy territory. MSNBC. I'll come.

60 minutes. I'll come. They don't, I'll come. In one of the criticism, Obama was like he did that one bill or anything and that was it, right? But that's Obama, Biden's not Obama, Obama can't get away with that because it's Obama. Biden, he doesn't meet with the enemy.

Newsom went and sat with Hannity. Hannity's good friends with Trump, and he handled it. That's gotta be something where you're like, if this guy is willing to go there, sit calm, no notes, zero notes in his hand, you have to see it's very impressive, from the head on that way, I'm sitting there saying, listen coach, can you put me in?

I can really do this thing here. I think Republicans would fear more a guy like him than Biden, but obviously disagree with it, I like to hear one. Well, first of all, you know, you have to remember, I think, how little most Americans follow politics. Gavin Newsom is probably known by 20 to 25% of the voting of the voting policy.

Would you say the same about the Santas? Would you say so? No, he's probably better known by now. Okay. He's been a newsamist now. He's been a newsamist now. No, no, no, no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no perceived by most of the country as to the left of the rest of the country. And it is to the left of the rest of the country. And I also think it's important to recognize the theater of politics, and who's willing to

sit with Sean Hannity and who's not. But there are also issues that there are profound differences. And one of the things we learned in the midterms was abortion is a voting issue in this question. No question about it. And if Joe Biden goes to the public and says, if Donald Trump wins, abortion is going to be illegal in the whole country, which it really might be, if the passes a law, which a lot of members of Congress want want to do, and if I'm elected president, reelected, abortion is going to remain legal in the states where it's illegal, where it's still legal. That's, that may be more important than anything else, because that is a substantive difference that people can see have implications in their real lives

more than the fact that You know he's old And you may have a point there if the economy stays intact if There's no Ukraine Russia doesn't get uglier than it already is today. If China doesn't, anything else would Taiwan. If there's not that cyber attack that they're talking about could be coming in next 12 months. If there's a lot of, if, if, if, if. Of course, yeah.

But if none of that happens and it goes intact and he drives that, that's going to be a big issue. What are things going to be the second and third issue that Democrats want to hear? Well, I think the, look, every presidential election at some level is about the state of the economy. That's certainly gonna be central and also peace in the world. It's the economy stupid.

Yeah, it's the economy stupid. I think at the moment, Biden has a good story to tell also, you know his his the fact that he passed that big infrastructure bill Which the projects are gonna start to come online where people are actually gonna see the bridges the highways the mass transit Start start to be fixed. Now all of that I think is is gonna be a be a big part of his pitch in addition to abortion. But as you point out, you know, if the economy goes south, that becomes an enormous problem for him. But at the moment, it hasn't yet. And we'll ask.

Absolutely right about the if. There's always an's an of course. Yeah. One can argue if COVID didn't exist, Donald Trump would currently be the president of the United States. Absolutely. You agree with that. Well, I, I, I mean, certainly COVID played a big part in Biden, in Biden's victory. You know, this sort of what if if something else that have it's, it's very hard to, to know, but you're certainly right that COVID was a big issue. And this also goes for DeSantis too, that you're not known whatsoever. Well, and at the moment it doesn't look like he's going to be Trump, but if he beats Trump and becomes the nominee, the way he handled COVID will be a big part of the presidential campaign.

Although presidential elections tend to be more forward looking than backward looking. And, Jeff, do you think that the Santa's even has a chance considering that the indictment just came out and Trump went up. He went up in the polls. I absolutely think the Santa's has a chance. Oh, wow.

Oh, absolutely. Has a chance, certainly.. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, optional. It's not like the civil case, which he lost in New York, where he didn't go, he didn't testify. You know, when you're indicted, and as a former federal prosecutor, it is worth remembering that upwards of 90% of the people who are indicted in federal court

wind up either pleading guilty or being convicted. So yeah, 90% of federal court. Yeah. Ultimately, you're saying there's a 90% chance that you can get guilty. Well, you know, Donald Trump's case is, so he's such an anomalous defendant that I don't know if you can precise, you know, just treat him like an ordinary defendant. I mean, a lot of these cases are pretty routine.

This is obviously not a routine case. But especially compared to the New York case, which I think is not a particularly strong case and not something that most voters would see as disqualifying, the federal case is, is I think very different. And also just the rules of federal procedure are tougher on defendants than the New York rules are.

Now again, Trump got a good piece of luck with Judge Cannon, who has been sympathetic to him in the past. But it's still, I think, yes, in the initial wave, he got a certain boost in the polls or at least the polls didn't change much. If he's sitting in court day after day and the public has to ask itself, what if he's convicted? How does it work to have a convicted felon the president of the United States? I mean, I don't think, we in the news media,

we spend a lot of time talking about polls, but the polls change and events change the polls. So the idea, I don't think the world has fully absorbed the magnitude of what it means to be indicted. That's right, I don't quite know. Because it doesn't disqualify, but don't you think Jeff, just from seeing that one poll, his real support is here, his real followers,

that's making them more energetic because they're seeing that one side is getting treated one way. He's getting treated the other way. If you think about it, you know this for a fact. Hillary did the same, if not the exact same type of stuff. Joe Biden has documents, but they're locked by his Corvette. And we just saw it with Hunter just yesterday.

They gave him two misdemeanors and something else. When we all know, we all know, everything that was on his laptop proved one It's it's 100% provable that him with his father They were peddling money and they were getting bribes, but like so don't know let's be honest job You don't think it's gonna help him people seeing like look at what they're doing to him and what they're not doing to the other side You said about five things. Yeah, Each one of which could be debated. But you are certainly right that his true believers

will be energized by that. That's not enough to win a presidential election. His true believers are maybe 30% of the country. That's a lot of people. A lot of people. But that's not enough to win the presidency. And what remains to be seen is how the rest of the public recreases. You're absolutely right.

It's enough to win a primary, potentially, but it's not enough to pivot to the general election. I want to stand the Trump indictment as a former attorney. Are you still in the attorney? I'm still in the attorney, yeah. Congratulations. You've seen Trump's former attorney general, Bill Barr,

give a scolding review to what Donald Trump is doing. And he defends him in many ways, still. Right, yeah. You know, he basically says that all the Russia collusion stuff and the impeachment stuff was a sham But on this particular issue the FBI search Documents ever that he's basically coming out and vocalizing yet Trump is absolutely in the wrong here What's your opinion on what bill bars basically saying about well?

I think it's significant because I think but you know We now live in such an incredibly polarized political environment that anytime someone on your side says you're wrong, it becomes very significant. You know, the fact that Adam Schiff thinks Donald Trump did something wrong, who cares, right? I mean, exactly. I mean, that's to exactly. That's to be, that's to be, that's to be, that's to be, to be expected. But as you point out, Bill Bar was his attorney general,

was a Trump defender in many respects. Right. And top attorney in the United States. Yeah, and, and, and, you know, unlike the New York case, the, the Florida case is pretty easy to understand. And, and, and, you know, unlike the New York case, the, the Florida case is pretty easy to understand. I mean, it's, it's not, it's not a super complicated break. Break it down like World Fifth Great.

Well, it's, it's that, you know, when you are president of the United States, you are allowed to declassify anything you want and, uh, but you have to actually do it. But if you take stuff with you and they ask for it back, you have to give it back. And he seems actively to have known that he had stuff that he wasn't supposed to have. And then in the face of a subpoena, said, I'm not giving it back anyway.

That's a crime. That's a crime that other people have been prosecuted just for possessing the documents. Forget not giving them back. And you know, it's not, and this is where, you know, the difference from the Hillary Clinton and the, and the Joe Biden situation comes along, they were never asked to give back.

And they found the stuff and gave it back, fallen. Well, not Hillary. Well, no, no, no, no, Hillary destroyed and hold on, Hillary Clinton had all the black berries destroyed. She had a server in her basement in her house. And as a United States Air Force veteran who had top-secure clearance, that was just all over the it done way before any request was no request or not. But the FBI asked for it. They destroyed everything.

No, they destroyed it earlier. But what's the F. What's it? What is it? But for no, but you're allowed to destroy anything. I mean, in your private property, you're allowed to do anything you want. It's a little weird though. It's a little sus, but that's a little, but it was, it was, it's a little, it's not a problem. It's not, it's, there's no,

there's no claim that it's a crime. That shouldn't be so, so, so, so for example, let's just say, you have a cell phone, right? Yeah. If, if, today, you want to destroy your cell phone, it's not a government issue, no, no, no, no, that's not a government issue, cell no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, out, it was the same day that we found out about the Hunter, Burisma, everything that's having

perfect. But Hunter Biden was prosecuted by Trump's US attorney in Delaware. Okay. Merrick Garland recused himself. This was entirely a decision by Trump's US attorney. What's the, what, what, what, how is that Joe Biden protecting his son? I mean, that was not, he Joe Biden and Joe Biden's attorney general had nothing to do with it. The whole issue was, the whole prosecution was conducted by someone appointed by Donald Trump. I think that the issue here is optics.

Vinnie, where'd you go to law school again? United States Air Force. Okay, gotcha. So you're not a legal analyst, but he does have an opinion. I've been here, I don't have to be a lawyer. I mean, I, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a,

I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a,

I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a going to law school, but I'm not there. They're just basically saying something's fucking fishy here, bro. But but it's sometimes it takes illegal and I said, be like, hold on, this is how the law works. Well, and also, you know, Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan was was someone I covered a lot, someone I liked a lot. He had something that he said something that that always sticks with me said, everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but they're not entitled to their own facts.

And the idea that Joe Biden or Merrick Garland gave Hunter Biden a sweet deal, it's just not a fact. Now you can argue that Hunter should have been more harshly dealt with, but you can argue that it was somehow a Biden initiative that he did it. I got a question for you. I got a question for you.

So let's just say, if I have 10 people that I'd one point in my life were best friends, and prior to meeting me, they had never done cocaine before. These 10 people, 10 out of 10, eventually became cocaine addicts and killed themselves, simply by association with me. I probably have some bad influence on these people. This lady named Hillary Clinton won too many of her best friends

or close friends have committed suicide in the random ways. She is not the most trusted person even by the left. She was supposed to be president. You were not alone. We, everybody thought that was 3.30 in the morning. I'm on a call with Tom. And he's saying, what they were silenced like I'm what's going on. You know the video with all the people losing their minds

crying all this stuff. I mean, the New York at the convention. Yeah, yeah. The convention was all about the stuff. I was all about the stuff. You know, she called all this stuff. Sure. Nobody believed it.

But why? Because people didn't trust her mess. Some of the stuff that came up, even with Komi, said what he said. And that didn't help him help her two weeks prior to that. The level of double standard would, how she handled herself. That for sure is there. There's no questions about it. When you say something like, well, you can do whatever you want to your phone, you can

do whatever you want to this. I get that. But if the other guy would have said, hey, accidentally these files burned. There was a fire in Mar-a-Lago. Oh, it wasn't. You guys would have lost your mind if you would have said there was an accidental fire. All I'm saying is I'm talking only to libertarians and independents. I'm not talking to Republicans and I'm not not not talking to Democrats.

I'm not even talking to rhinos. I'm not talking to Lincoln Project folks who cannot stand Trump. I'm not standing to Bush folks. I'm not standing to a McCain folks. I'm not talking to those people. I'm talking to independents and libertarians like a Joe Rogan, like a McCain folks. I'm not talking to those people. I'm talking to independent and independence and libertarians like a Joe Rogan, like a musk. These are people that were voting for the left. These are people that wanted to vote for Bernie Sanders. Joe Rogan wanted to vote for Bernie

Sanders is who he wanted to vote for. This is a guy that was for legalizing marijuana, totally okay with LGBT, you know, his friend, you know, totally okay with this. It's like, there's something really fishy here. So the Hillary Clinton's never going to lose your loyalty, you know, totally okay with this. It's like, there's something really fishy here. So the Hillary Clinton's never gonna lose your loyalty. You know, you're not gonna say, I'm gonna flip. You're not gonna do that. And people who on the Maga side, Trump's not gonna lose their loyalty. It's just not gonna happen. That's naturally there, right?

It's like, a Yankees fan, how often does a Yankee fan who's been a Yankee fan since six years old become a Red red socks fan at six years old Just not gonna happen right? So if you're gonna convert religion you do it early If you're gonna convert teams you're gonna do it or if you're gonna come up with it You generally do it early, but the people in the middle who are kind of like Missy what he has to say and let me see we have to say come on, bro. What are you talking about? You're saying to me that Hillary Clinton didn't I'm kind of with him here I don't agree with you because I see because you know, you know the argument that the left

makes and they say, Democrats want Trump as the candidate. That's who they want because he's the guy that we will beat again. Really? If that's who you want as a candidate, then don't do this stuff. Well, no, we have to indict him and we have to do New York and we have to do this stuff because we just have to do it. Well, sorry, you said he's the guy that you're certain you're going to beat. Why don't you not do this? Because every time you do his post go up, well, that's strategically because we actually want him to beat the Santas because we believe he will lose to Biden and we believe the Santas will beat Biden. We've heard all that story many, many times, right? So there's some leaks in the argument where a person

who's sitting there saying, listen, I'm not there to see all the reports and I know Adam is defending you as a lawyer, saying, listen, Adam, you know, who is Vinny to say this? You're a lawyer, you read all these things. Totally get that. But the average voter who has this technology that we all possess, especially the independent and libertarian ones, is a bullshit of matter, whatever you want to call it, where you kind of sit and they're saying, ah, it's not a little bullshit in here from one side over the other. I think that party is also sick of it.

To the point where, you know, Musk and Rogan and to say, you wanna save America, vote Republican. If there was two people that you wouldn't have ever thought to say those two things, it was gonna be those two guys. And they changed in their 50s, not in their 30s or their 20s. That's the community that's sitting there saying, they don't trust anything from Biden or Hillary Clinton.

That happens to your son. They don't trust anything. I'm sort of amazed that we are, you know, we are talking about the 2024 presidential election. And people, you're talking so much about Hillary Clinton. Hillary Clinton has been out of public life for eight years. I mean, if this is-

Wap put Hillary and Biden in the same camp. Well, all right, but and I mean, Biden is certainly, you know, appropriate to talk about. Yeah. And, and, you know, musk and rogue and I, you know, I only brought a pillar because you brought a pillar. You brought a pillar early. I don't know. Actually, I think I brought it in response to what he said, but that's fine. You know, whatever. No, no, you brought a pillar when you said, when I

got it wrong, oh, okay. That's what I'm saying. I never brought this. I was wrong. I, okay. That's what I'm saying. I never was wrong. I was wrong. And I certainly was wrong in 2016. I think presidential campaigns, this is something Bill Clinton often said, and I think he was right, is that presidential campaigns are always about the future.

And how you envision the things going forward. And what I can never get my hands head around is that we often view these campaigns as a form of theater and who's more likable, who's more trustworthy. It's like these have real world consequences. And that's why I think abortion is such a big issue because it's not about like who's more likable.

It's like a big difference in people's lives depending on the outcome of the election. And same thing about climate change. I mean, you have one political party that thinks it's not a particular problem. You have another political party that thinks it's not a particular problem, you have another political party that thinks the government has to mobilize against it. That to me, and maybe that's just a flaw in how I see politics, but I see it as more substantive than the theater aspect.

But I recognize that a lot of people are going to do. And this is my thing, Jeff, and I respect your opinion. But my thing is, when people say stuff like, that's back then, it was Hillary, it was eight years ago, people like me come up and they say, I just want accountability. I want, I don't give a damn if it happened, 30, 58, 10, JFK assassination, we're finding out that CIA was involved.

I want people to be held accountable, because for instance, you see the Russia, the Russia thing, we just found out that was literally Hillary Clinton, set it all up, paid, you know, fusion GPS, they all, they all set them up. Now the public is like, wait a minute, can we hold her accountable? You, we had to be dragged through CNN, which was the biggest mouthpiece for that big ass lie for For all those years, now we find out, Hillary was behind it. That was the real collusion.

Hold on, Jeff. And no accountability? Didn't do what the DNC got find like $8,000 for dragging us through that nonsense. For all those years, we want accountability. And when you destroy phones, Jeff, it's not her cell phone. When your whole staff is government-owned cell phones and you're destroying evidence and then hold on.

And Adam, you talked about Attorney General, Loretta Lynch, where James called me. They're about to, she would have been, her charge would have been Gross Negligence, which is called, which is, you can go to jail, correct, for Gross Negligence. While the sudden last minute, they changed it to extreme carelessness.

One side has it way better than the other side. And when you have the FBI kind of leaning towards the left, which we've learned, Jeff, we can't lie with Peter Strock and Lisa Page and the whole FBI, we keep finding out stuff with the Twitter files. They lean way more left than they do, right? I just want somebody to get, be held accountable for what they did.

That's just my point, that's it. I respect your point and I think, you know, you are very concerned about accountability. I think presidential elections are gonna much more about the future than about who's accountable for what happens. So forget about the path, by the way. No, these, not forget about it, but it's just not, I don't think it's relevant to the,

who's, who you're gonna vote for in 2024, how you felt about Hillary Clinton's, you know, Jeffrey, I'm on my nose. I'm gonna interject, Jeffrey, a second. Because I think that's being a little dismissive. Because, you know how you said facts, don't care about, you know, your feelings, opinions, would Vinnie's trying to convey?

He's basically a mouthpiece of millions of people who feel that way. Whether he's right or wrong, good luck convincing somebody not to feel away. So what I think, and I'm not saying that, coming at you, like you're the tip of the spear for the DNC or anything like that, but use Vinny as a metaphor for freaking millions,

tens of millions of America who feel that way, who's basically saying, what the fuck is going on here? It seems like there's two completely different justice systems. And dude, I'm as moderate as it comes. I'll go left, I'll go right, I'm down to party. But there's so many people on the right. But by the way, this is coming from a guy that has never voted for Republican president.

Ever. Ever. So he's saying that. So what I would say is the following. Here's what I would say, Woodward. He said, by the way, the climate change thing that you said that people are worried about climate change, Greta Thunberg five years ago, today.

Today, June 21st, she said that because of, if we don't stop fossil fuels, today was the doomsday, today, this was the first time. I think we make it through today, by the way. Can we buy? Can we buy? Climate change scientists is warning that climate change will, so we could die today

if we're not a lot of humanity, unless we stop fossil fuels over the next five years. Okay, so that's the day. I got up and shaved and everything. June 2018. Well, this is what happens when you listen to a 13 year old. She was 15, but by the way, but by the way, but by the way, this is not about what happens when you listen to 15 year

old. You chose to put this person as a spokesperson and use them as a person of influence to get younger people and she was very influential. Trust me. This girl's got more influence than most people have unbelief. She does. I'm not down to her. By the way, but she's not, I mean, I look, I don't know, it's what she's saying is not that that it will,

that on five years from now, humanity will cease to exist. It's that eventually, and if you look at, you know, the melting of the polar ice caps, the melting of Greenland, the melting the rising of the seas, that's not an unreasonable prediction. That's not an unreasonable prediction at all. You really believe that? That climate change is gonna affect more.

I think climate, obviously, I mean, you don't think climate change is gonna affect, I mean, here we are sitting in South Florida. You don't think the rising seas is gonna affect my amy? Climate change is okay. So do you want to have the climate change debate? Let's finish this and then we can catch a climate.

I don't want to get into something. No, no, no, no, no, no, but you brought it up. So let's talk about it. We can talk about it as none of us meet specials. Nobody hears any expert. So whoever gets it, we can all get it wrong. But let me go back to the point about the future thing. Okay.

I agree with them partly. Let me explain to you why. You remember how the whole thing is like they stole the election, they stole the election, they stole the election. You know who's the first person that said that? Hillary Clinton. 100%. They stole the like, Russia, her, they stole the election, but nobody said anything. The more she went and the more she did that, the more she looked like a victim. I could, I couldn stand it. When you're so loser and you lose and you can do it. You know who did it next? Trump did it.

100%. Okay, and guess what? You're living what? They stole the election, they stole the election. Whether they did or not, either side, voters want you to say, we lost, let's move on. 100% Left, right, middle, it doesn't matter.

Let's move on. However, hey, for those that believe There may have been meddling in the election et cetera, et cetera Here's what we have to do the solution is don't vote by yourself go with two's go with please go What for give me the solution because that's now moving forward right here's what we want to go So that part I agree with him. It's future Obama sold the campaign in 2008 You know future, you know Clinton show sold future Kennedy sold future Reagan sold 2008, you know, Clinton showed sold future, Kennedy sold future, Reagan sold future, right?

And even Trump sold future in 2016 when he won a Mac, let's make America great again, let's make this, it's the future. Okay, Trump's campaign started sloppy because he wasn't selling the future, he was selling the past. All right, having said that, there is a part of me that You know, I want to know like for example this whole thing about who cares where COVID came from I'm sorry. What I want to know where COVID came from. Do you care who cares? Like I remember one time Hillary Clinton was asking Who cares? They're dead. They're no Yeah, what does that matter? What does it matter? Benghazi? What?

What do you mean who cares? That's the camp left or right. That's the camp that says who cares? We're already past this. No, listen, COVID ruined a lot of people's lives. The leading surgeon, what do you call it? The surgeon general came out and said, Hey, here's what we learned about COVID.

Is that these shutdowns led to people needing to be around each other and why it's so important to be around each other Wait a minute. You just realized the Zoom concept didn't work working remotely that we need to be around each other because we need each other's company We're just on to realize that now. We're just on to realize how this affected kids. No, no, no We can't say who cares? We have to go back and find out what happened to prevent it from happening again. And if China did it, they have to be held accountable. And now we know the first three cases were the doctors that were out of China. Well, that came out. That's not even something that's being debated about. It's public information that they're talking about now. We have to find that out. Okay. And we have to find out whether Fauci was involved with different cases, you know,

was the, you know, gain function, where they doing that, where they not doing that, was involved with us, who was funding it, where did the money come from? People wanna know, there's a reason why, like think about messages that go viral. For example, what do we learn midterms? Republicans screwed up.

Royally, not a little bit. Royally, they screwed up with abortion. You're 100% right. No one's this this this agreeing with that. But watch this year Who's RFK Robert F. Kennedy He lost his father and he lost his uncle Two people that were loved and admired probably by both sides Establishment didn't like those guys the establishment couldn't stand the the Kennedy family, at all, because they were going up against the establishment.

They couldn't stand those guys. So all right, can you go on Amazon and type in Robert Kennedy, Jr. If you can just go on Robert Kennedy, Jr. I think he did, nobody wanted to publish this book through anybody. Go to the Anthony Fauci one. I read that, that was a great book.

It's scary. So zoom in a little bit. It's number four this week. This thing was written two years ago. It's got 23,000 reviews over a million copies sold and who published it. Go to the bottom. Go to the bottom. Go to the bottom. Go to the bottom. Let's see who published it. Go to the bottom. Keep going. Keep going. Keep going. Keep going. Keep going. keep going. Oh my God. Okay. Okay. So, what's the agreement on sky horse publishing? Who is sky horse publishing?

Go Google who's sky horse. No, they they they publish a lot of books that other publishers won't. Don't want to. So it's kind of like a, yeah, okay. Perfect. So sky horse publishing takes some of the guys that people don't want to publish. So then the question becomes, why did the book do so well? Why did it sell so many copies?

Maybe because people want to know. Why did Roe v Wade create such a big, maybe because that's an important thing to women, including left and right? So guess what, Republicans? You have to respect that and pay attention to it. Guess what, Democrats? You have to find out what the hell happened

with this Anthony Fauci guy. So to me, the only thing that, the only point I'm making, I'll kind of turn it over to you and then we can go to the next subject. The only thing I'm saying is, the future part I'm with it, I agree. You have to sell the dream of the future where we're going. But the accountability part,

if there's not really any law in order, then this whole thing about a guy like OJ Simpson who got away, which by the way, or you're not like by OJ Simpson. No, I'm aware of that. But by the way, but by the way, by the way, you know what that says? That's a compliment.

Well, you know, my dad always used to say, you can tell someone, you can tell a lot about someone by the enemies and you know, the fact that OJ Simpson is my enemy, I'm just gonna say that. But what I'm saying to you is I respect the fact that he doesn't like you because we wanted to know what happened. So there's a part of the accountability part

that there's a lot of people that are saying, I just want to get to the bottom of a see who was behind me. And this is the thing, the COVID thing interest me for a specific reason. I mean, there is a active scientific debate about the ultimate source of COVID. Did it come from a lab? Did it come from an animal? Did it come from an animal, you know, an animal?

And I, I'm just a guy who went to law school. I know fuck all about a time, about epidemiology. I, you know, how could you possibly ask someone like me what the source of COVID was? Oh, that's not what I'm asking. No, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, I'm saying, but what are we really, we should, yeah, we should, as Vinnie, as the source of COVID, but, but, but, but,

shut up. That is a question that should be addressed in good faith by people who have some idea about how to determine that. I don't know the source of COVID. You know, but, but get that out of me. But these questions that become politicized, it seems ridiculous to me to have political debates about something that is a scientific question

that people should address. And I'm agreeing that there should be your investigations of all that stuff. By the way, Brett Beard, did you see the interview with Trump? Yes, I saw. Okay, excerpts are. Did you see that he did a good job? No. Oh, you mean Brett Beard? Yeah, I thought Brett Beard, did you see the interview with Trump? Yes, I saw. Okay, excerpts, right? Did you see that he did a good job? No.

Oh, you mean Brett Beard? Yeah, I thought Brett Beard had a very good job. I agree. I think Brett Beard did a great job. And you know how he said, this person said, this person got fired, that person got fired, this person got fired. Why do you not have a good, you know, so he has the tough question. And then, you know, why is it that you're keeping on to it, they were trying to get it

from you? Well, I wanted to first make sure, okay, so guess what? People want to know. Great. But people want to also know with the core red back and with the notes, we know what you had there's a bite. People want to know as well. People want to know with. And there is an investigation going on about it.

Great. Absolutely. All I'm saying to you is people want to know, we want to know what's behind the truth. The comment about the fact that I'm not an appetit, you know, I'm not an appetit, not this, I'm not that I'm totally get it. The element of that approach, when you say something like you know, I'm not the ex-counter. Not this, I'm not that I'm totally get it. The element of that approach, when you say something like, well, you're not the expert in this and you're not the expert in that,

there is a very clear pompous, elitist message behind that, like just like this week when MSNBC and CNN, while we know the president is talking right now, Jake Tapper and Rachel Madd CNN. While we know the president is talking right now, Jake Tapper and Rachel Maddabo, we know the president's talking, but we listen, we are not gonna let him have any air time and we're gonna update you on whatever he says that's necessary because we know he's gonna tell lies.

I'm sorry, do you think I'm a moron? Do you think I don't have a mind for my, like I can't make what the hell is America all about? You just said I'm a moron? Do you think I don't have a mind for my like I can't make what the hell is America all about? You just said I'm a moron. That's what you do. You just said to half of America. Hey America, you're a moron. You can't think for yourself. That's why you need me because I went to this elitist university called whatever whatever Colombia. I don't know where Rachel went to. Whatever, whatever Colombia, I don't know where Rachel went to.