PBD Podcast - John E. Deaton XRP Ripple Lawyer | PBD Podcast | EP 108

Episode Date: December 16, 2021

Patrick Bet-David sits down with Gerard Michaels and special guest John E. Deaton to talk about topics such as XRP, Keanu Reeves on NFT and Meta, and much more! Subscribe to the PBD Podcast YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGX7nGXpz-CmO_Arg-cgJ7A --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/pbdpodcast/support

I was alive for a long time. That's fantastic, man. We are live. Okay, today's guest. I just want to tell you who today's guest is. Today's guest is John E. Ditten, former Marine. In the Marines, he was a lawyer. Okay, in the Marines.

He comes out. He starts falling in love for the concept of crypto, give or take, he's interested on what's going on with the technology and the coin. And then from there, when the SEC goes after XRP ripple, I think December of last year, it's when they open up the case,

John Edith is now representing 62,000 XRP holders of which 1,000 of them own other coins as well. A lot of people on Twitter were saying, you and I got to get together and we finally were able to make it work. So if you're somebody that's following crypto, if you own Bitcoin, if you own Ethereum, if you own Ripple, if you want anything, you probably want to pay attention to this.

And we're aware that a lot of the XRP community is going to be here because there's a cult like following with that community. So thanks for having me on, man. Thank you for having me. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. Okay, so having said that before we get into it,

can you get some of the guys to give me an iPad charger because this thing literally does, because I've been watching a bunch of his interviews. So John, what's going on, Kay, currently right now with the SEC case against Ripple. We have a bunch of notes here, but bring everybody up to date on what's going on right now with the lawsuit. Well right now we're waiting on a couple big decisions from the judge. There's a decision, a motion to strike Ripple's fair notice defense, and a motion, the most

important motion, I believe, because I think the fair notice one is going to be an easy one for them to decide. It is the internal documents at the SEC, their documents on Bitcoin, their documents on Ethereum. There's even a document date at 2018, June 13, 2018, on evaluating XRP and whether it's a security, and the SEC has refused to turn any of these documents over. They're claiming they're privileged, and they're claiming they're privileged, Pat. Even though they claim that they've never made an official declaration on Bitcoin or

Ethereum, they've actually rescinded Bill Hinman's speech on June 14, 2018, where he said, look, Ether's no longer a security. Bitcoin's not a security. They've all walked away from that. And so that's why this case is so important. If the SEC's successful, I can guarantee you Gary Gensler's coming after.

Ether potentially, and not so much Bitcoin, but every other outgoing. So there's three audiences you're talking to today. I just want to kind of give you this perspective, so you know as you're communicating, the typical audience you talk to, they're all crypto community. So when you drop in names and all this stuff,

they know, right? So when you drop in Verbidge, they know. When you're saying certain things, they know. Today's community is consisted of those who are XRP, Ripple, which you're very comfortable talking to them. Number two, it's the community on the crypto side that don't own XRP, but they own Bitcoin and Ethereum. And they're concerned about what's going to happen with you

because not you, they're concerned what's going to happen with this case, because we know Gary is hired and appointed. I think February 3rd of this year by Kamala and Biden as the SEC chair. And he used to be the commodity futures trade commission under Obama before. And in prior to that, he was under Clinton.

So he's a full-blown Democrat, they know it. And we know Kamala, Biden, one of the game plans that they had as they were, there was a couple things that were not comfortable. But it's why they brought Gary and Gary is not a fan of SPACs. They're trying to a little over-regulate SPACs. You're aware of that. Absolutely. Because last year, they was about $100 billion dollars of money raised for SPACs.

The last 24 months. So SPACs are in the up and down, they've been around for a while, but it's been a lot of momentum lately. And the other thing they're worried that they cannot regulate is why they brought Gary in is cryptocurrency. They would like to figure out a way to make crypto a security because if they do, they can now control it, they can now, you know, regulate it, they can do a lot of different things. So for the audience that has no clue what's going on, okay, no clue what's going on. Okay, no clue what's going on. Let's go through your initial passion on why you,

as a former Marine lawyer who's extremely skeptical, why did you all of a sudden say, look man, I wanna see what's going on here with crypto, this is kinda interesting to me. What was appealing to you? All right, well, first thing I did, I did what a lot of people do. I read the Bitcoin white paper. Okay. Fell in love with the concept of cryptocurrency, bought Bitcoin, bought

Ethereum, bought XRP and just sort of went a firm believer, you know, I think you said in an episode 40% of all US dollars, printed in the last year. Yep. It's staggering. And so looking at it as an alternative, a hedge on inflation, or just an alternative to fiat currency that's being debased every day. So that's what got me involved. What got me involved in this suit, Pat, was I'm just an investor. I'm not a securities lawyer, believe it or not. I'm actually a Meekest Counsel in the biggest securities case since 1946, and I've been

practicing a securities law for about nine months, right? But when I read the complaint as an XRP holder, I learned that the case was filed. I was expecting to see what you always see in these securities cases that the SEC would say, you know what, Brad Garlinghouse, you know what, Ripple, when you sold XRP in 2013 to 2015 on this specific transaction on that specific day, that was an unregistered security. And that's what I expected. First paragraph, XRP itself is a digital asset security and it's an unregistered security

from the very beginning of time until today. So according to SCC, including the secondary market, Pat, if I go right now and I buy XRP from up hold and I don't have any idea of ripple, they're saying that's an unrestured security. And so it's something very different. They're attacking the set of precedent against the token itself. And the case, the seminal case that they go off is this case called Howey from the Supreme Court in 1946.

It involved orange groves. And the SEC never said, or the Supreme Court never said the oranges are the securities. They said the scheme and the marketing and the packaging, the way that the company sold it. That was an unrestor's securities offering. They didn't say the tracks of land were the security. They didn't say the oranges were the security. The underlying instrument that Pat is never the security. It's the way you offer it and package it. But in this particular case, they went after the token and Pat, for eight years, it was sold in the United States and worldwide, 200 exchanges. They allowed Ripple to purchase 9% of money gram. They had a settlement with Fincin in 2015 where they called it digital convertible virtual

currency. This was being allowed to go on and on and on and all of a sudden the former SEC chairman Jay Clayton on his last day as he's walking out the door, slaps this lawsuit, the most significant SEC enforcement action, in my opinion, in modern history in a non-fraud case, and goes after the token. And there's so many conflicts of interest that we're going to get into. Jay Clayton was just on TV today on CNBC, and they asked him again, what about these conflicts that everyone is calling you out on?

And he's like, I'm not going gonna talk about it because it's pending litigation. There's no pending litigation over your ethics, right? But he refuses to answer these questions. Stuff we're gonna get into. Yeah, so, so the, and by the way, the current case against SEC, doesn't XRP have like some of the most incredible team right now? The former SEC chairman is one of their representatives.

Who did they have on their team right now? What? Ripple up on their team right now. It's outstanding. Yeah, that's what that's a very good. No, Mary Joe White former SEC chairwoman former SEC chairwoman is on on their team. Yeah, former director of enforcement a guy named Andrew Suresni who was the director of enforcement is their lead trial attorney. This is Ripples. Yeah, and and they also have on their team former SEC person in charge of New York's office, and they actually have someone who used to be the director of corporation and finance on their team.

Ripple has an all-star team as far as defending this case. So let's talk about the devil's advocate. The folks who are right now saying, well, Ripple deserves this because behind closed doors that we're doing XYZN, for the way Ripple was formatted, if I remember, 80% of, that 100 billion, right? Is it 100 billion talking about the center correctly? Of which 80% they gifted, 20% they kept, right? Today's market cap is around $37 billion.

The fully diluted will be around $80 billion. It's kind of where they are today. Correct. With numbers. So some people from the other side say, well listen, these guys were kind of doing a pump and dump type of stuff behind closed doors and be a market manipulation. And because there's no regulation, they can kind of do this. And you know, they used to say that also about John McAfee. John McAfee would say, it's going to this, it's going to this, it's going to this, it's going to this, it's going to this, it's going to this. So it would go up, he would sell,

then he would tell people not to sell. And I don't know what he did this or not, but that was a lot of criticism because we had McAfee on as well. Well, one of the big things that, we talk in the crypto community, our guys are like, we love ripple, the technology, we love ripple,

the coin, we love what it can do for, international, money transactions, hate the people who created it. So that seems to be... Why is that, though? Why are people saying that, though? Well, I think because when you compare it to a Bitcoin, right, there was no pre-mind with Bitcoin, and you had people allegedly could fairly mind for it, and it was open and it was decentralized from the beginning, they believe that these executives are enriching themselves. But my answer to that question is, okay,

go after Brad Garlinghouse, go after Ripple. Why are you going after the token? Why are you eight years after the fact? Why are you going after the teacher that put, you know, $500 in the Ripple, yeah? Exactly, I've never met Brad Garlinghouse, never met Chris Larson, never met any of the people at Ripple.

I'm no Ripple fan. Those two names, just so people don't know their founders, I think Chris is the one that founded Ripple Labs, right? He's one of the co-founders as well. Yes. And they were sued independently. Now the thing about it, Pat, is in this case, after a 30-month investigation, the SEC didn't actually allege fraud.

They investigated it ripple for 30 months. There's no fraud alleged. It is a strict securities violation. You didn't give proper disclosures when you made these transactions. And I say, fine, go after them. All right, I'm not here to defend them. They've got to wait better lawyers than me, right, go after them. All right, I'm not here to defend them. They've got to wait better lawyers than me, right? To defend them.

But what you're doing, when you go after the token itself in the secondary market, right, you're, let me tell you something, and I know this because I've been communicating with 60,000 people. It is an absolute fact that the first time purchasers of XRP, 58.2% of them had never heard of the company ripple. They've heard ripple the name, but they never heard of a company. 58% have never heard of it.

They're just speculating. They're just speculating. They're just speculating. Pure speculation. Yeah, you know what they do. Listen, you go out, it was a number three, for a while, it was number two, market cap, but it's the top three market cap. Somewhere like Coin and Mary.

Cryptocurrency is just 25 cents. So people look at it, they see Bitcoin going up Somewhere like corn in there. A cryptocurrency is just 25 cents. So people look at it, they see Bitcoin going up, they're like, hey, I can afford 25 cents. And so they were doing that and had no connection to this company. And so to a ledge that those people enter the common enterprise with Ripple and therefore it's an investment contract

is just, it's taking absurdity to the highest level. Do you think that they attacked the soft target? Do you think that they were looking to set a precedent against the tokens? Ripple made the mistake of incorporating in the United States and they went after people that they didn't think like who pays you? Like they never thought you know, 60,000 coin holders would actually come together, communicate and formulate some sort of defense against this. They thought they were going after a soft target and that they were gonna create some case law

that was gonna change the crypto landscape and then you came in and you took a dump on their front lawn. Well, let me tell you, I think what we're talking about here, the people that you know in cryptocurrency, where, and what Pat said, about people don't like these executives, or they don't like the 80% being gifted and holding back 20%. If you read the complaint, even though they don't

allege fraud, they use fraud-like language in the complaint. And it inflames people. If you don't like Ripple, and they're like, oh, they're going to have to Ripple, I'm not worried about it. But when you read the complaint, and it says that all XRP holders are joined into a common enterprise with each other and with Ripple, when they say

that the very nature of the token itself is an investment contract with Ripple, then it becomes very dangerous. They're using, in my opinion, this case to set the precedent that you're talking about, so that if they're successful, they can do what you were saying, Pat, and regulate all the crypto currency. So, let's go back to this SEC lawsuit that Clayton, you said Clayton did the day before he was done, he filed this lawsuit, I think it's December 20th of 2020,

right after election by the wound, this thing kind of took place. So the lawsuit is towards the XRP holders. Nothing to do with Brad and Chris, is that what you're saying? Are they going after Brad and Chris as well separately? No, they're going after Ripple and Brad and Chris, but they're being so overbroad in their language that they're using, that they're saying all XRP, even in the secondary market, that's being traded, that all of that's an unregistered security.

So, one of these 62,000, what did they get in mail? Did they get in mail something from the SEC? Did they get, how do they know they're being part of that lawsuit? Okay. What happened was basically, and this was for war, Clayton, and I have a letter, I'm going to give it to you because I just got it from the SEC after fighting them for nine months and threatening the Su-M through Freedom of Information Act. But a former fellow Republican SEC Commissioner Joe Grunfest on December 17th, Eme, sent a letter to Clayton and the commissioners and said, don't do this.

You are about to harm innocent XRP holders and cause more billions and losses than in any non-fraud case in the history of this country. They warned them and they still filed it on walking out the door. And so what happened is is just as that former SEC Commissioner warned, he said, listen, if you say the XRP is unrestors security, Coinbase is trying to go public. They're not gonna hold it.

They're not gonna keep it. They're not gonna trade it. And so the intermediaries, the exchanges and the platforms are gonna delistet and that's what happened. And so Coinbase, Kraken, Binance, Crypto.com, they all said, look, I'm not messing with the SEC. SEC says the token itself is an unrestor security.

We're delisting it and we're not trading it. And so you have people learn that way. And many of these XRP holders learned of this company named Ripple and these executives called Brad Garlinghouse and Chris Larson for the first time when they got notice on their wallet and Coinbase that said, pursuant to the, and it says, I could show you on my phone, it says, because of the SEC action against Ripple, we are suspending all trading of XRP. And let me tell you how that impacts people, Pat.

I don't know if you've ever heard of I Trust Capital, right? It's basically an IRA for crypto, and it's the biggest one in the country. And they allow you to hold your crypto just like you can have the Bitcoin, grayscale Bitcoin trust in an IRA, right? Well, they basically have frozen all of the people's assets. So XRP, if they wanna trade it right now, they can't.

If they want to sell it because XRP goes to five bucks and take that gain, they can't. This is Robin Hood, GMME all over again. I mean, that's, you know. Well, you can buy or sell or trade right now. You, not on coin base on those. There are a couple exchanges like Uphold that made the decision that said,

this is ludicrous. Our securities law, you say there's not a unrestored security we're comfortable maintaining it but there's like one or two out of fifteen and the rest of them delisted and but those individuals who have that money that xrp it's frozen so if they had a life-auntry in the event right there their mother-in-law needed to go to a nursing home and they need it to cash out can't touch it. Can't touch it. Yeah. All waiting on this lawsuit to happen.

Couldn't touch it. Well, that's how a lot of these organizations get, you know, negative reputation that they do. SEC, types of organizations, what I'm talking about. But, you know, when you get a knock on the door from SEC, that's a real knock. Yeah. It's not just anybody knocking on your door.

That's a knock you got to answer SEC, that's a real knock. It's not just anybody knocking on your door. That's a knock you got to answer and say, here we go again. So how much money is ripple right now, Brad Chris? How much are they using with legal teams? Especially the ridiculous legal team that they have. How much have they already spent, you know? I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's at least a million and a half a month. Okay, a million and a half a month.

That's what they're spending. I mean, that's me guessing. So in full, you know, if you were to say right now, there's a few things that can happen, right, with this case. They can settle, which a lot of people say it's probably gonna end up settling, right? Let's just say it's gonna end up settling. The SEC comes in and lets settle, you know,

$10 million, $50 million, $100 million, whatever the numbers that they settle with, right? Fine, here's a check you move on. And then the other one is to say they release. They just kind of say, look, we're just going to let it go. We're not going to do anything right now. And we're not necessarily going to settle with you. What is the consequences of both?

Both negative and positive? Well, I think it's very positive for everyone if there is a settlement. And give you an example, You could pick the number. Ripple owns 50 billion XRP. It's an escrow and each month one billion gets released and they use some of it, sell it and then they put it back in escrow. That's 50 billion, Pat. Imagine if XRP gets to five bucks, right? There were $250 billion dollars, that's significantly more than more than more than Stanley and Goldman Sachs. And so if that were to happen, and the SEC

were to be worried about the precedent, right? The way this case settles is Gary Gensler is afraid that an adverse ruling by the judge on fair notice, where she says, listen, you can't go after him, you let it happen for eight years, you didn't do anything, there's so much uncertainty in the world in this market. You allow them to have money, Graham, you allowed it to go on coin based all those things. If that happens, then that precedent would be usable by Cardano and XLLIM and every other altcoin.

He doesn't want that. He doesn't want that. Yeah, that makes sense. So if that happens, when that pressure point takes place, then you could pick a number. If it goes to five bucks, for example, if that happens, they could sell 10% of the monthly escrow, which would give them $500 million.

They could settle for $500 million. It would be a huge public win for Gary Ginsler, because it would be one of the highest SEC settlements. As long as they don't classify the token as a security. But that settlement won't happen unless they do basically what was done for Ether in 2018 when Bill Hinman then the Director of Corporation Finance said, you know what, we're going to set aside the fundraising in the initial years, but today's token is not a security.

We would need some kind of declaration from the SEC or the court for that settlement to happen. But two paths point right now, look, that sounds well and good. And for the record, I hold XRP, so I hope it does five X. But right now, it's like 75 cents. So you're not talking about 250 billion, you're talking like 40 billion. And the US government has nothing but money and time. So from the outside looking in, I'm not an attorney, but this looks frivolous.

This looks like somebody trying to lean on somebody. This looks like maybe, I don't know. You know, like you said, Money Grand Western Union decided to get a couple senators in there and say, you know, this is going to put us completely out of business. Like we make 25 cents, we make 25 cents out of every dollar transferred. These guys can do this instantaneously for no money. Like get rid of these guys. But what's to say that they don't just keep dragging it out, dragging it out, dragging

it out, dragging it out, bleeding you out, bleeding you out. I mean, how long can they take this? If they take this thing 10 years, is Ripple going to fight for 10 years? What's their breaking point before they say, okay, you know what, fine, we're security, close the thing down, reincorporate in Mexico with this same exact white paper and start over. It's a great question. My settlement scenario was if that pressure point existed for Gensler that it was going to, you was gonna put them out of business regulating all the other crypto because of the precedent.

If those rulings don't come down favorable for Ripple, then I don't think there's a settlement. I think it goes diverted and I think it's on appeal and I think we are looking at a couple years of that process. At some point, Ripple could tap out and say, listen, we'll go with a certain designation. We can only sell to accredited investors now.

There's ways to get around it, but I don't see it happening. I see it either settling because of those rulings that come down or it goes to verdict. And there was a verdict in Connecticut not too long ago where a jury came back where there was a digital asset a small one Where they the jury said that's not an unregistered security and so That's where I think we're headed So so let me go back to that tell me go back to that because the point was we have two things settle and dismiss right You almost want settlement more than you want to be dismissed right because if they dismiss it

You almost want settlement more than you want to be dismissed, right? Because if they dismiss it Then that means hey, we're coming back again and again and again and again and again, right? So there's a part of Brand and Chris and the 62,000 and it's 62,000 you're representing but there's more XRP So it was the number 456. I saw a number like 450 500,000 XRP holders Something like that. Some number like that, right? So, if they dismiss and they don't do anything, what happens then?

Then we have this cloud hanging over us. And what Gerard said, I think you had, when you had Kurt, I was watching that video, when you had Kurt on it. And Gerard summed up the unfortunate nature of what's happening in this country. He literally said, Ripple was similar to Bitcoin. They were just dumb enough to do it in the United States. I mean, that sums it up.

It will be right there where there will be this uncertainty. And right now, you have Gary Gensler saying, come in and talk to us. Come in and talk to us. As soon as they're using those interviews as a way to learn information about the company, as soon as you leave, by the time you get to your office, you have a subpoena. Brian Armstrong of Coinbase was trying to negotiate with them over that Lynn product. And all of a sudden, he shares with them all that information, he goes in and he talks to them,

and then what do they say, if you bring that Lynn product, we're going to sue you. Why do you think they did want to be the first to incorporate me in that state? So they're obviously not dumb guys. Why do you think they want to, they want to, despite, I feel like, I feel like they kind of, maybe not the SEC, maybe not the way that they've gone after it, but I feel like they poke the bear, you know, by kind of swimming against the current.

And I don't know, maybe they thought they would skip the line and be the first that would become like some sort of, you know, state-backed, you know, you know, as EB Tucker called it, FedCoin. I don't know what their, what the intention was. I don't know what kind of conversation you have with them, but have they ever described to you what their thinking was with making this, you know, an American product? No, I've never, I've never spoken to them, you know, and a lot of my critics will say,

oh, you know, he's a plant for Ripple, look what he's doing, never spoken to him. There was a report done by Fox Business on this story and they said, deep there's no fanboy of Ripple. I don't got anything against him. I'm an XRP holder. I want them to be successful because if they're successful, the whole ecosystem grows.

But I don't know why. A lot of people ask that question. So definition of security. What is a definition of security? All right. A security in the form of an investment contract. That's what's happening here. Four things have to happen.

One, has to be an investment. Two, into a common enterprise. Three, you are led to believe. Hang on. Two into a common enterprise. Three, you are led to believe. Hang on, investment, common enterprise. Common enterprise. You have to believe. A reasonable expectation of profit. Okay.

And four, and you rely on the efforts of others for that profit. If you meet those four factors, and you must meet all four, then it is an investment contract. You meet a fourth one, so investment, common enterprise, reasonable expectation of profit and real line on others. Real line on others to help make the profit.

To make the profit. So let me ask you a question. This if this is what the definition of security is, I've been serious seven cents day before 9 or 11, whatever, a 2000 and one I've been serious seven cents, day before 9.11, whatever, a 2000 and one I've been serious seven, 66, 3126, all those licenses. Till today I have my licenses, right? You serious seven can drink now? My serious seven can drink now, you're right. In one year, in one year, in a year you can drink, not yet, it would have to drink at a party like what typically would do. But if that's what you're saying, how many

people, and this is a very simple question, how many people buy XRP, Ethereum, or Bitcoin for its technology, rather than as a source of investment? That is a great, great question because there are, let me address this, there are a group of people I represent that use the technology. They go on the ledger, the XRP ledger, and they use as a bridge asset. They buy Casino coin. There's a decentralized exchange,

part of the ledger, and they trade assets, trade different currencies. That's like a pseudo dark web now, man. And so there are users of the technology. But there's no doubt that there's a lot of people who are speculating, right? Whether it's Bitcoin, Ethereum, I've read as much as like 97% of the speculations. That's what I'm saying.

So that's the part where for them, they don't like that, right? I mean, you just define, if I ask right now, and listen, most people are probably not gonna say exactly, but if I ask right now, and you listen, most people are probably not gonna say exactly, but if I ask right now, why are you buying Bitcoin? Oh, it's a great investment. No, no, no, no, no, don't use that word.

You know, don't use that word. You know, like in, as a financial advisor, the what's the one word you cannot use as an advisor? You know, like the one word you have to be careful, sell a mutual funds or stocks or bonds. What's the word? The G word, what's the G word? Guaranteed. You can't say, I do it. I guarantee you. The stock market with American funds, the last since 1934 when American funds, investment company back to America came out.

It's done 12.2%. Dude, I guarantee you, you can't say that, right? So that's the G word. So the investment word, you can I use that with these technologies. Okay, number one, you're looking at it as an investment, common enterprise, reasonable expectation of profit, most people have a reasonable expectation of profiting, and then relying on somebody else to make the profit. One can say that about all of them, right? So then the conversation becomes decentralized or centralized. Many will say, well, you know, Bitcoin and Ethereum are the most decentralized product out there,

right? Let's just say that's what many will say. But then they'll say, look, Ripple is somewhat centralized. And they'll come back and say, no's not it's pretty decentralized only seven percent of centralized right how much how much doesn't matter whether the technology or the coin or the wallet is centralized or decentralized how much does that matter great question and let me just point on your your point about the investment yeah I'm sure that ripple lawyers and others they don't want me talking about investments and things like that. So you're 100% right. Now, I will tell you that you have to focus on the token versus the technology.

The network versus the token. Ripple, I will tell you right now, I can absolutely win any argument that the XRP ledger is more decentralized than the Ethereum network. I put every dollar I got. Why is that? First of all, because if Ripple went away,

they filed bankruptcy tomorrow, right? XRP ledger continues, XRP continues. Vitalik buterin dies. You're gonna tell me Ethereum's gonna continue to go. Mark Cuban just recently said when he was challenged by Bitcoin Maxi's on a clubhouse, I was listening in and they were like saying to Mark,

they were like, look, it's not even either 2.0, they're going from proof of work to proof of state. You know, they keep promising, promising, promising to never deliver. And Mark says, I think that Vitalik's going to figure it out. And I'm putting my money on that. That's centralization, right, right there. Now, the problem for Ripple is that they own 50% of the XRP.

Okay, that's token centralization. That's token centralization. And that's the real problem for them. And a lot of people look at that and say, well, you own half of the token. That's the market manipulation people were talking about. They're worried about that. And that's why the Blackguard and House came up with the escrow where they put it all

in escrow and each month, only a billion of the 50 billion will come out and then they'll go back in escrow and they can't touch it. That's good. He did that by the way. Very, very good. He did that. You made a great point too about the talent. Like, I'm a big ethereum guy, but it's been listening to podcast and I'm very, very, very bullish on Ethereum. But I'm bullish on Ethereum the about the talent like I'm a big ethereum guy but it's been listening to pockets I'm very very very bullish on a theory but I'm both on the theorem be cost of italic

the same way that I own Tesla because of Elon Musk Elon Musk bells on Tesla I'm out you know so the the you know proponent of the great man theory that's a great great point that you're making man but when it comes to you know as an attorney right when you're looking at what the SEC is doing, and Pat made a great point about, okay, like, we can't set this up as an investment. Well, then I can see, you know, I'm just a dummy from Jersey, and I can see a Kafka trap from a mile away. Okay, well, if it's not that, if it's not an investment, then it's gambling, and you still need to register with the Gaming Commission, because you're buying a token on, it's lottery, essentially. You're, you're buying a token on it's lottery essentially you're you're buying this thinking that it could go up but with you know no no fail safe it goes down either way they're gonna want you to register you're either

you're either gambling or you're investing and they've kind of got you trapped John I just want to give you full disclaimer very few dummies from New Jersey used the word Kafka trap two seconds after seeing coming from the Jersey just just want to put that out there. But go ahead. I'm pleased that because it's still trying to figure out whatever. I I I

I I didn't listen to the rest of the what he said after he said that word. I'm like the house. I I'm just an I'm just an ape floating on a rock. The outer space.

Oh, but anyways, what was the question? So basically man, you see them, they're trying to corner the token into regulation. First, they're going to go after it as an investment property. And then you're going to say, it's not an investment property. Like Pat say, it's not an investment property. They're going to be like, OK, well, what makes it not an investment property?

Well, it could bottom out. It could hollow out. Oh, so then you're gambling. Right. Now you need to register as lottery. Now you need to register as gaming. They're letting your arguments, you're going to win this argument. And through winning this argument, give them their next argument. If I learned anything from doing my view States of America with the questions, Pat asked Rudy, the government

is taking their losses and turning them into their next wins. They will change the law until they have you so what my concern is with something like this Especially with the settlement because the settlement makes too much sense Just make it go away the settlement gets you closer to the regulation If it's not going to be this then they're gonna get you the next time and it's not gonna be registered as a security It's gonna be registered as gaming. It's not going to be registered as a security. It's going to be registered as gaming. It's going to have to be registered as some sort of gambling. You're going to have to be 21 and older to buy it. You're going to have to buy it with certain restrictions. Like that's, they're going to regulate it somewhere or another. And

we're trying, the whole point of this is the decentralization and deregulation. The whole point of this is to be outside of the, their scope of control. So, you know, that, that's kind of like, now that's not your concern, obviously, because your concern is to be outside of their scope of control. So, you know, that's kind of like, now that's not your concern, obviously, because your concern is to win the lawsuit in hand. But, you know, and again, I didn't know that you didn't know the guys are ripple, but I'm wondering if they are then saying,

would they rather be a security than be gaming, than be seen as some sort of lottery essence? Because like you said there's the technology but then there's the speculation right and the speculation right now 97% of the people don't even know what they're doing that's that is gambling that's lottery well one problem in the United States is that you have so many multiple agencies it's already regulated XRP and Ripple were registered what Ripple was registered as a money transmitter and

they had a they got sued by the government department of justice in Fincyn and they had a settlement in 2015 and they paid $700,000 and they were told you have to register all your sales of XRP through Fincyn and that happened in 2015. And then of course, five and a half years later, the SEC comes down and says, Oh, by the way, it's also a security, right? And so what we really need is Congress to step in and authorize the right agency to govern cryptocurrency. These are securities than what's an NFT? If the token is security, what's an NFT? Pat went over. You can imagine many things fit those if you want.

No question about it. Non-fungible, by the way, this is why I'm concerned. Absolutely. This is why I'm concerned. Because look, Joseph Kennedy, who is he? He's a bootlegger. He's the father of the Kennedy. It's amazing there hasn't been a movie made about Joe. There has to be. I mean, he's a legend.

The guy would sit down his kids in suits and say, which one of you guys is going to be a president first? Can you imagine like something that expectation? John Runner for the IRA? I think you got your next project. So I've interviewed RFK. RFK is a very good friend. I think we have your next project. So I've interviewed RFK. RFK is a very good friend. I think we have something coming up together,

a debate that we're doing, part two with his book that just came out with his best friend, in regards to his best friend, Anthony Fauci. He loves Anthony Fauci. That's a joke by the way, sorry, I was so. So Joseph Kennedy, before there's any SEC, anything going on, the guy just knew, pump and dump, pump and dump, pump and dump, pump and dump, everybody and their mothers was doing

it, right? And then Security Exchange Act of 1933, and such an investment company act of 1934, and all these other steps, you know, whatever these things started coming out, right? Right after the Great Depression, was it a good thing? Was it a bad thing? Many will say was a good thing because guys during that time capitalized because there was no regulation, they came in, they took money out, and the rich got richer, and a lot of people got crushed

that couldn't afford to lose that $3,000 or $40,000, $100,000, or that girl you're talking about whose father passed away and insurance policy paid $75,000, and she put the $75,000 in XRP you're talking about whose father passed away and insurance policy paid $75,000 and she put the $75,000 in XRP and she can't take the money out and that $75,000 is now whatever, $20,000 but she needs that money. She can't touch that money, right? Okay.

So the other part is what Draper said, Tim Draper. I don't know if you saw that Tim Draper interview with Gary three years ago, 2018, when this interview took place and Draper gave Tim Draper. I don't know if you saw the Tim Draper interview with Gary Three years ago 2018 when this interview took place and Draper gave a system. I love what he said I'm out of the way for people that don't know who Tim Draper is Tim Draper is Abused of a guy is who he is. Here's how he broke down the system. He says Bankers are panicking. He said this in 18. He says this is their system. It's always been their system Step number one. They say this is their system. It's always been their system. Step number one, they say, this is nothing. Cryptocurrency, Bitcoin, NFT, nothing.

You ain't got to worry about it. There is no way they can compete with somebody like us where Jamie Dimon's got $7 trillion of money circulating through Chase on a daily basis. That's like whatever the number they say. That's a pretty big number that they go through, right? So he says, step number one, these guys are nothing. They're not going to make it.

It's just a fat. It's going to go away. Step number two, now it's too big where you have to face it. Okay. So what they do is three bankers all get together and say, we can't make this happen. What do we do? Step number four is we sue them. Step number five is we bring our government friends to say, I need a favor.

I need you to sue those guys. And he's telling this to Gary, when Gary wasn't yet the SEC, he was only the chair of the CFT, commodities futures trade commission, right? See, it's like he's clear-voined. Exactly, that's what was so epic about. I don't know if you've seen this or not.

What did Gary say about that? It's powerful. So then Gary's trying to, well, well, but I think we're already there, but I think we're already there. And then he says, and the last one is, Tim Draper, frickin' mic drop. He says, is this make or buy?

This is what everybody do. All the great companies, they either make or buy. He says, you either have to choose to make a similar product, similar exchange, similar token, similar wallet, or you have to buy it. And that's eventually going to happen. So that's where we are today. They're more than just a few people. They're more than just a few people. They're more than just a few people. They're more than just a few people. They're more than just a few people.

They're more than just a few people. They're more than just a few people. They're more than just a few people. They're more than just a few people. They're more than just a few people. They're more than just a few people. They're more than just a few people. They're more than just a few people. They're more than just a few people. There are those who are driven by freedom, leave me alone, let me do something better, and there are those that can't stand it,

that you keep getting richer and more powerful. They cannot stand that you keep making money. We had Matt Zeller on yesterday, and we talked about Trump, and I hate Trump. I hate Trump, you know how angry he got in, and you wanna have lunch at the Louis Bosse. I like Matt Zeller. Oh, I do too.

We're beginning back on board. I think Matt's great. But you and I talked about it during lunch, and you said, what? at Louis Bosse. I like that so. Yeah. Oh, I do too. We're being in back on board. I think that's great. But you and I talked about it during lunch and you said, what? You said, why do you think it's such a thing about... He broke them. Yeah.

What was it? There's something about Trump that makes these people... And I said violently angry. I said because there are certain people in life you're okay losing too. You can't like, well, this I lost to my cousin. You kind of comes from the richest family and he went to Harvard. I'm okay if I lose to that guy.

Makes more money than he's more successful, it's fine. But then you have that one cousin whose mom and dad were, let's just say, you know, divorce and one was an alcoholic, one went to jail. That cousin beats your ass in life, you can't deal with that. You got a diminishing, you got a throne, you got to do all this other stuff, right?

Cryptos almost like that cousin and that coin where it's like, listen, a diminishing, you got a throne, you got to do all this other stuff, right? Crypto is almost like that cousin and that coin where it's like, listen, fiat's been around for a while, gold's been around for a while. Who the hell you think you are? There are a lot of people that don't want to see this happening, but there's one good thing that's happening today to the crypto community.

There's more true believers today than ever before. There are more credible sources that are coming in saying, look, we're putting our money into it, we're gonna fight as well. It's now the crypto community as a political party. Yeah, thank you. So we're back in the days where Democrats wanted to win the black vote, and they have to bury gold water.

That's a great point. And when the Democrats wanted to win the black vote, because blacks forever have been conservatives. And Martin Luther King was a conservative He was a Republican dog. We got to win it very gold water gave it away Went from 60% to 92% African Americans voted for who for Democrats and they've had it since then 92 18% spent a while right? Political parties today have to be very careful and I think this is gonna favor whoever's on the free enterprise side of the political side

Because Gary's a Democrat, Biden's a Democrat, Kamala's a Democrat, and the ones that are going after crypto are all on one side of the political party. The libertarians, the independence, which is the crypto community. Crypto community is not Republicans. They're typically independence and libertarians. Anti-establishment. Anti-establishment, which Republican is establishment to them. So is the Democratic Party. But I think what's happening right now is if this happens, I don't think this is just a financial issue for them. If they settle, you know, whatever they do, forget about that part. I think they're going to be crushed politically because it's no longer just a hundred thousand votes or half a million votes.

You've got millions on top of millions that now have influence. I'll tell you why you're 100% right, especially with the younger community. All right, this is, again, Eby Tucker, great, great guy we had on last week. You know, there's kids that I've coached in baseball, kids that I still follow that are now young adults. They've never held gold, they don't give a shit about gold, but they've been trading crypto for five years. They've gone, they're learning blockchain technology

in schools. I learned cursive. You know what I'm saying? These kids are learning blockchain, triple ledger. They understand the technology in ways that we don't. You know, we're almost old in this. And these guys, this is not like new alien technology to the next generation. This is just a way of life to the next generation. So it's only going to

get bigger. And they saw what government does. They saw what with with GME, what happened with GME when the government literally stepped in and made it okay for the hedge fund not to go under for people that don't remember what happened with GME, they over-hedged on a short. Wall Street bets came out. A couple ant, you know, rogue analysts came out and said, you know, these guys are leveraged past their teeth. All you gotta do is keep the price above the put

and they gotta pay whatever. It can go up to a million of share theoretically. And then it had gotten up. It was a $6 share. It had gotten up over $350. And it was going to go up over a thousand. And they just turned it off. You could sell the stock, but you couldn't buy it. Right. So the, what the SEC did in that regard, or what they didn't do, I think I ended up getting like a class action, like $12 check from Robinhood or something like that. We bow all these exchanges. If you didn't believe in the net and the necessity

for a decentralized, unregulated blockchain, like, yeah, you can lose your money on Moutgocks, but you can also lose your money in the stock market. And they could steal from you, and you have no recourse whatsoever. That right there, that what happened with that Wall Street bets, what happened with that six million, I think it's up to 10 million Reddit, a subreddit, is you had an entire block worldwide that lost trust and faith in the market and in regulation, whatever the little faith that they had in regulation, they lost it all. Okay. Let me tell you how on point you are.

Just a little over a month ago, I started a website and I'm plugging it but I don't make any money, there's no sponsors. It's called CryptoLaw.us. And I put an app in it. And all you do is you put in your address in your zip code and you type your message and it goes to your congressman's to spend and your two senators. In a little over a month, 6,000 messages have been sent to these elected officials. 100 senators have been contacted by these crypto people and 420 representatives. It's making a difference. They are very engaged. That's an incredible number.

That's 6,000 in a month. That doesn't do anything. Trust me when I number. That's an incredible number. That's an incredible number. That's an incredible number. That's an incredible number. That's an incredible number. That's an incredible number. That's an incredible number. That's an incredible number.

That's an incredible number. That's an incredible number. That's an incredible number. That's an incredible number. That's an incredible number. That's an incredible number. That's an incredible number. That's an incredible number.

That's an incredible number. That's an incredible number. That's an incredible number. That's an incredible number. That's an incredible number. That's an incredible number. That's an incredible number. That's an incredible number. That's an incredible number. That's an incredible number. And she thought people were speeding too fast down the church and she would literally call and show up at the state house once a week Hey, we need a speed we need a speed bump. Is there any way we can get a speed bump? I'll raise money for a speed bump and then finally it got to a point where it was like we need to fast track the speed bump

I don't want to deal with this lady anymore. She was the nicest activist in history the lady got her speed bump It took her like four months. It was just one person that writing an email, making a phone call showing up the state house and she got her speed bump. You know, like it, and the system works if you're the squeaky wheel gets the oil and that crypto law.com, that's a game changer. And I'm actually wrong. It's 8,000. I just remember it's over 8,000 messages have been sent to them. And people are sending me some of their letters. In some of them, many of them get the form letter. Hey, thank you for contacting me. Well, don't do that. Don't do the form letter.

Right. Some have been doing that. I'm talking about the SEC. I'm not the SEC, the elected representatives. They're getting form letters from the app. But some of them are actually meeting with their constituents and learning because they see where this is going. I've had people sending me letters

that they received from their congressmen, a couple of them here in Florida, where they said, we're going to, we're involved in this SEC, we're monitoring it. 8,000 people, bro. 8,000 people. Look at Jersey. You just had Phil Murphy win by what? 6,000 votes.

You think that he stays? No, guys, listen. 8,000 people, he's like, if they're going to write me an email, they're going to vote. Let me tell you, let me tell you, if I'm the Democratic Party right now, the Republican Party, or if I've ever like the libertarian party that puts a candidate like George Organs, so love her philosophies. Love the philosophies. You can't sell, you're not a salesperson, right?

People thought Spike Cohen was running. If there ever was a time that you saw an opportunity. For Ross Pearl was able to get to 21%, whatever the number was 19 to 21%, as an independent, if you've ever wanted to capitalize on a poll, like if today Libertarian independent party wanted to get to 30, 35%, like this is a market, this is not going away, but here's a concern that I got for you, I'm gonna go back to.

So Ponzi scheme. You know the word Ponzi came about, this was the sketch, there was a guy named Ponzi, okay? So what's the whole thing about a Ponzi scheme and a pyramid scheme? You hear these words, Ponzi scheme, everything nowadays called a pyramid scheme. Everything nowadays is called a Ponzi scheme.

It's very easy people drop that word regularly, right? NFT is being called that, you know, cryptocurrency has been called that. A lot of things I've called, you know, crypto currency has been called that. A lot of things I've called a multi-level marketing has been called pyramid scheme or a Ponzi scheme. But the challenge where some people win is when there's not an actual usage of the product. Let me say that one more time. There's not an actual usage of the product, meaning the product they sell is not being used. If I'm anybody right now, I want to get to the 60% number, 70% number, which means something,

there's got to be 70% of the people that buy this coin, use the technology, use other aspects of it rather than just a yeah so for example hypothetically more all these guys that are probitcoin proletherium pro you know whatever doge you know you just saw Elon Musk yesterday said we're not gonna be taking payment for what through doge right because he says the technology is better than XY even though this started as a meme thing it's better than all the other guessers. There's a technology. Yeah. Elon Musk is doing the right thing.

What Elon Musk is doing is he's making it, he's giving it credibility. So for example, insurance companies need to start accepting Bitcoin as a payment. Like when you talked about the whole I Trust Capital, which is the IRA, that's great. Small businesses need to start more taking Bitcoin as a payment, Ethereum as a payment. More of these folks that are pro crypto the future, which is that's the direction you're going decentralized,

the bank can no longer bully you and do all the other stuff, power can no longer control your life. Any of those things great, but there needs to be a major push into the usage of the technology rather than the investment. If they win there, I think you're 100% on it. That's why I brought up the utility. Listen, I can make a very good argument that XRP is being utilized way more than Bitcoin or Ethereum as it relates to just that token being usage, cross-border payments, people get on the ledger,

they send money. There's an app, a developer independent of Ripple called Spin the Bits, and it's Spinning Bitcoin, where he uses the XRP ledger as a layer two solution to the Bitcoin network problem, right? It takes 10 minutes at the low end for Bitcoin to an hour for the transaction to go on the list. It's theontaneous.

It ripples, XRP is instantaneous, three to five seconds. And you know when you had Kurt on here and he said, you know, Bitcoin is like seven transactions, BTC on, and, BTC, yeah. Ether is 15, Ripple, X XRP the token thirteen hundred per second transactions and fraction of a penny I can move I've

watched it I can move two million dollars worth of Bitcoin for a fraction of a penny using the XRP ledger as you said earlier the technology is awesome it's absolutely in my opinion, the superior tech, as far as the network. And I think when you get to usage, XRP is ahead of the game. That's where you win. That you win, you win there.

That's my opinion. I'm maybe wrong, but I think you win by me needing to use the product. If I use the product, it validates that it's not just an investment. Here's the problem, guys. And this is the beauty of decentralization.

And this is also, you know, this is where decentralization lags behind. Who's the Patrick BetDavid of Ripple? Who's moving the company forward from a marketing perspective? Who's out there creating the infrastructure necessary? Who's got the user interface so that everybody can get on their phone and within, you know, three seconds learn how to use the product and use all these different ledges that we're talking about. Who's going to teach my mother

how to use Ripple on a day-to-day? It was impossible to teach her how to use Venmo. It took like two years to get her on Venmo, you know what I'm saying? So that becomes the issue with cryptos going forward. Which community can come together and coagulate in a common direction, that there's going they're going to have the Bitcoin ATMs and somebody's going to have the conversations with mutual of Omaha and say you should be using Bitcoin to take payments. Like who's out there actively selling, who to take payments like who's who's out there actively selling who's out there actively marketing who's out there actively creating infrastructure and these

usage things. There's a trillion dollar industry, trillion dollar industry in the future for people that I mean, think about it. Think about the very first person who allows easy past to have Bitcoin and takes, you know, one tenth of a cent of a transaction for every easy past that goes through every toll in the country. That they're worth a trillion dollars.

So I mean, but who's doing that? I mean, right now, who is pushing that technology forward? Who's the driving force behind that technology in these, because these aren't companies. They're like organizations. They're, it's the beauty of it. It's the wild, wild West. Well, that's the no directive.

Well, two things. You'd be a great securities lawyer, because do you know, consumptive use defeats the whole case for XRP or Ether gets sued. The SEC in the complaint, they have an entire section that tries to say, there is no consumptive use. It is all mere speculation. There are no users of the

network, so you're 100% on point. And the problem, the danger, why this case is so dangerous is what you just said. Who's out there promoting it? Because once you are a promoter, are you a common enterprise? Are you leading people to a reasonable expectation of profit based on your efforts? You know, if somebody was a drug deal that started it as a now a rico case, are you now complicit in international smuggling? Like if you buy, like this, this stuff's the Wild West, man.

NFTs, like I saw, and you as a lawyer, I'm sure you've heard this as well. There are people out there right now, right? That are creating an NFT for $300 of Ethereum. Okay, they've got a million dollars in Ethereum sitting in the bank. They buy their own NFT for a million dollars of Ethereum. They spend a million dollars. But now they have the NFT and a million dollars of Ethereum.

They sell it at a loss for half a million dollars. So they lost on the ledger a half a million dollars. It took a half a million dollar. So they lost on the ledger a half million dollars It took a half million dollar loss, but they got a million a half a therium. You can do that over and over and over It's not illegal right now Right, you get you're getting a half million dollar loss and you're increasing your wealth Is that what what's going on with the NFTs? I mean is that the idea think think about think about it from this standpoint Okay, what allows the government to want to tighten up regulation on guns?

What, what allows it? Like, think about what helps their argument. Public perception? Forget public perception, it's dummies who do stupid things that are irresponsible with a gun and the politician comes in and says, what? I told you, we have to, you know, and you know what, my governor knew some, I'm gonna do exactly what? I told you, we have to, you know, and you know what,

a governor knew some, I'm gonna do exactly what Texas did to abortion, we gonna do to guns in California. Here's what we're gonna do moving forward. You can no longer buy, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, right, so meaning, where I'm going with this is the following,

the quick money, get rich, quick, scheme type of guys are unfortunately, unfortunately making life difficult for the rest of the guys that are doing it the right way, the long-term play wise. And this has been going on for a while. Government, the regulators, they love, that 1% of the con man that are trying to,

they say, you see, you see, that's exactly why we need to protect you. Might be that person. It might be that, there's a one that's going around breaking the windows and they're like, you and I like that. That's the galeon dialect. Gary Gensler just did that just a couple of weeks ago,

when he brought up Bitcoin, someone brought up Bitcoin, he goes, it's being used for ransomware. Do you know what percentage that that really is being used for? That's the play. And you know, like for example, last year, we had a couple hundred thousand orders of fake value team in consulting Bitcoin stolen.

And we get the calls. And I get on the phone with these gunna glisten. That's not us. That's not us. Look at the email you got. That's from bed David crypto specialty at gmail.com. I said, that's not us, buddy. We don't have that website. That's not our website. That's go look at the IP address. Oh, shit. I feel so bad. My wife is so upset at me. So, so there is that going on as well. Absolutely. So there's got to be a part on, you know, a society has to either accept a fact that if

that happens to you, you were the one that didn't verify the source that was coming your way. So you deserve exactly what you got. Or a society needs to say, no, we need to figure out a way to eliminate 100% of that. And that's when these government people come in and they feel special that they're needed to do their job and then they go turn one small regulation into 78 different regulations. And then another guy comes in, try deregulating stuff.

So my concern is they're going to point to these guys and say, this is why you need our help. What would you, which would you prefer in that spectrum? You know which one I would prefer. To me, I would prefer, look, the whole concept of itamin is what? Education. That's the whole concept of itamin. Look, here's what to look out for.

Here's what to be paranoid about. When you're raising money, keep these things in mind before you raise money. Ask these ten questions. Before you're hiring somebody, ask them these five questions. Before you open up an office and sign a lease, know what the commercial real estate guy makes. Here's what they're motive is. Understand, right?

Yes, so to me, I'm all about educate, educate, educate, educate, educate, and then look, if you screw up, it's on you, I've screwed up. God knows how much money I've lost, screwing up. That's organic regulation. And that's organic regulation.

A part of that, that's got to be organic regulation. But there are those who abuse others, my punishment for abuse would go higher. My punishment to want to hurt somebody's livelihood and their savings, if you do that, it wouldn't sit very well with you. Less laws, but harsher consequences. Less laws, harsher consequences, my approach is what it would be. The problem we have, though, is it's always an extreme. It's either no regulation or it's an anti-state.

You know, that's the problem. It's the financial crisis after it came down and Dodd-Frank was passed and all that. I couldn't get a mortgage to my home and I just wanted a home equity loan, even though I had the home was worth two thirds what I'm asking for and I had five times that in my savings account But they said because one year I

Fell under a certain threshold at my law firm, you know settlements with delayed or whatnot They're doing the exact same thing now with COVID. They're doing the exact same thing now They're telling people that they had a lapse of income. They were like, yeah, the world was shut down But but before that, anyone, it was no verification income loans, it was no job verification, all those things. That is the predatory lending. So, but the problem we have right now is when a situation like this case happens and certain government officials start picking the winners and losers. And that's what's happened in this particular case.

And I hope we have time to go over some of those conflicts. Go for it. So I just want to share with you a couple of minutes and interject. Go ahead. So Clayton gets appointed immediately. He has called Clayton as former SEC chair. Former, thank you.

Former SEC chair, Jay Clayton. Immediately, he's described by Rolling Stone magazine as the most conflicted SEC chairman in the history of the United States because of his connection to the banks and the Wall Street. As confirmation hearing, him and Elizabeth Warren go back, he agrees that he should recuse himself that he should never vote against one of his clients having an enforcement action, like he has to step back, right?

So that goes on. He gets his good friend, William Hinman, to become the director of Corporation of Finance. These guys are heavily connected. They were the main sponsors of Alibaba IPO and many other types of IPOs. Bill Hinman comes in, Jay Clayton is from firm Sullivan and Cromwell, okay? And Bill Hinman is from Simpson Thatcher. Well, immediately in December of 2017, Sullivan and Cromwell represents the co-founder of Ethereum, Joe Lubin and Consensus.

And Bill Hinman has a meeting with them and they start talking. Immediately, the very next day, Consensus General Counsel gets up and starts talking about how they're building this alliance with the SEC. They go on to have four to five more meetings with consensus and the co-founders of Ether with Bill Hinman. Bill Hinman's firm was a member.

Bill Hinman's firm is a member. So just so I can track it. So you have a private law firm, the Ethereum, and then you have the SEC all together in meetings. Right. And what you have is you have the co-founder of Ethereum, Joe Lubin, and the founder of Consensus, meeting with SEC Bill Hinman,

and his firm is a member of the enterprise Ethereum alliance. To what end? What in what capacity? What was the, what was the reasoning for the meeting? I think he's getting to it. The reason for the meeting is because they start lobbying for a Ethereum-free pass, right? They want to say, hey, Ethereum, yeah, we maybe did an ICO

because it was the world's first ICO. But it's sufficiently decentralized. So Jay Clayton then tells Andreson Horowitz, which is a huge investor in crypto, right? They have the 2.2 billion fund, big ether backers. He says, write a memo up for us and tell us what you want. They write a memo in a safe harbor proposal. There are multiple meetings that take place, a secret meeting in March of 28th of 2018. And it gets leaked because there's some stuff going on in there. And they propose a safe harbor for crypto, but the only crypto they mention is Ether.

And then what happens on June 14th, 2018, Bill Hinman, gratuitously as Director of Corporation and Finance, very high up at the SEC, gives his infamous speech where he says, setting aside the fundraising that took place with Ether, it is sufficiently decentralized today, and therefore current sales of Ethereum are no longer considered a security. He goes on CNBC and he says, well, you know, when we look at Ethereum, we don't see a third party promoter. You just had a meeting with him.

It's a backroom deal. You just had meetings with him. He had a meeting on June 8th. Six days before the speech, he had a meeting with the promoter. So he gets up there and says, we don't see it. In criminal law,

this sounds like a properffer meeting almost. And then it absolutely. Then all the people started asking, what about XRP? XRP was actually number two at the time behind Bitcoin. And it was battling ether for the number two spot. Oh, we're not going to comment on any of further tokens. Joe Lovyn then goes out and starts basically saying what the SEC is gonna do. He says, we're working with the SEC. They gave ether a pass.

They gave Bitcoin a pass. All these other coins. He literally says this are, are absolutely spectacularly disadvantaged compared to ether. They didn't mention XRP. That's very interesting. He says the SEC is gonna be coming after certain projects. All of this takes place,

right? In the meantime, Bill Hinman is collecting $15 million from his law firm while he's at the SEC, which is a member of the Enterprise Ethereum Alliance, right? Sullivan and Comrell, which represents Jay Clayton's firm, that's his firm, they represent consensus in the co-founder of ETH. Wow. Right? All of that's going down. Now, listen to this. Just before the lawsuit happens, now in the meantime,

in the meantime, Ripple's allowed to buy 9% of money Graham and use XRP. It's actually, they're giving it to money Graham who's then selling it on exchanges for dollars They a lot they coin base in January of 2019 Goes to the SEC and says look our securities lawyers Have decided that XRP is not a security We want to list it. What do you say SEC?

SEC doesn't say anything One month, XRP is listed on coin base. Then in October, one river comes out and they make a one billion bet on Bitcoin and Ethereum. That's an October. It also consensus decides that they're going to buy quorum, which is a competitor to Ripple. They're trying to replace Swift, the messaging and money banking system, basically, which is what Ripple was completely focused on. And then on the last day, you've got on a three to two vote,

who does Clayton go with? He goes with the two Democrats, even though he's a Republican, votes to file the suit against Ripple as he's walking out the door. His excuse has been reported while he deferred to the staff. The director of enforcement leaves three weeks later

to go to Simpson and Thatcher. Clayton left, Bill Hinman left, all of these senior people who were supposed to foresee this case, right, and see it through all leave. Two weeks before, what I mentioned earlier, before this happens, Joseph Grunfest, former SEC Commissioner, who helped Ethereum. Ethereum rights and I got the letter here right to Clayton and the commissioners and says listen You've never made a material distinction between ether and xrp If xrp is a security ether security if you're gonna allow xrp ether to be traded you got to let them trade He even goes as far as 15 million reasons why that's not true He goes as far as to say if you filed this lawsuit

It calls into question the commission's discretion. This is like a damn jongership, not a man. He says that. And so what happens? J Clayton votes for the lawsuit. The two Democrats vote for it. The lawsuits file. They all leave.

J Clayton goes to one river, Bitcoin and Aether. And guess what? The people that helped write the Hinman speech. And by the way, these are all facts. On Crypto Law, we have a video library of all these interviews. Dangerous to the coast of making an allegation here. All right.

And I will tell you, they basically come out and Bill Hinman now works. He's a partner with the Ether investors who helped write the speech that gave Ether a free pass. And that's not an allegation, that's facts because lawyers who are part of the meeting have come out and said, I didn't think Ether was sufficiently decentralized, but Bill Hinman did,

I'm not sure why he did. 15 million reasons might tell you why, being a partner at a 2.2 billion. So here's the thing about allegation. I'm not saying that they broke a law, but what I'm saying, tell me there's not enough for an independent investigation. That's all we want. We want an independent investigation. In the meantime, don't take John Dieten's word for it. An independent organization in power is in litigation with the SEC because they won't

turn over documents. They won't give us Bill Hinman's calendar. How is a guy who's being paid by tax dollars, director of corporation finance? They won't give us his calendar to who he met, when he met. They won't release it. This independent organization that sued the SEC asked for any ethics discussions between Bill, between Clayton and the SEC about his post-employment henman. They say there's no documents or they won't give the documents. He was freed of an information act that he won't give it. Right. This is going to

be 75 years, 75 years now, for the free of information. Right right so that's all in litigation but that's what's going on you know what you mean and so what I'm doing is saying listen you want to go after ripple go after ripple go after brag I don't care but you are destroying people's lives by attacking the token itself and why did you allow the money grant to happen? Why did you allow Coinbase to do it? How does Coinbase go in there and say we're going to list XRP unless you tell us otherwise? And then they don't. And they list it. And then 18 months later as he's walking out the

door he slaps a lot. That's what I'm told. No, yeah. Right. But it's what I'm saying. And so. Let me ask you, who hates, if you were to make a list of people who hate XRP, who would you say, hate XRP? Not this like who hated. Joe Lubin, who is the co-founder of Ethereum, the founder of Consensus, we have him on video saying XRP is overvalued. XRP is a shit coin.

XRP is not a competitor, and so we're not worried about it the day of the henman's speech where he gave either the free pass joe lube and goes on the same stage right after bill henman and he says these words he says uh... by the way i didn't get to read all of the the speech did they bring up xrp and the moderator goes no, well, isn't that interesting?

Right? He goes on later in interviews to say that the SEC is going to be coming after certain projects and he hints that it's going to be XRP. And the thing that you have to understand is the guy who's saying, XRP is not a competitor. XRP is not a competitor. Why is it the first token you bring up after you're given the free pass? And the other thing that the SEC won't give us is did you know that 63 emails went out

with that draft speech that gave Ether a free pass. Do you know who was the only commissioner to get a draft version of it? Who's that? Jay Clayton. Did you know Crypto Mom herself has to person never saw it. How do you draft this? Why would Clayton even be involved in that draft? Why would he even? He gave input.

He's the only commissioner. Bill Hinman was deposed. Ripple was successful in getting him deposed. Of course, they redact everything to the public. And I have it here. If you want to see it, the lawyers ask them, did you ever represent? How much is redacted?

He's the year 90%. Let me see. This goes to Pat, you were telling a story a couple of weeks back about your... Now, this Pat, you were telling a story a couple of weeks back about you. Now, you were at Harvard, and you said that there was a guy who was having trouble. This is just fine to Congressman.

Paying half a million hours a day is going through an election, and he'll help you put up a law to hurt them. This is it? Yeah. Inaction. He's asked questions like, have you ever worked for Ethereum Foundation? Look at the answers.

Look at the freaking. Look at the redactions. All right, and this isn't the whole, this isn't the whole. Look at the answers. Look at the freaking, look at the redactions. All right, and this isn't the whole, this isn't the whole, this isn't the whole, awesome. Too old. Are you kidding me? Right, this is insane.

Now, now, why would they redact, Pat? If he's asked a question, have you ever had clients that are part of the Ethereum Foundation? If I represent you in your business, I can't talk about what we talk about. Charles, is it a phone record? No, it was an exhibit that's public record. Can we show this? Oh, yeah, yeah, you can show it. So like, absolutely. So I don't know if people can see this, but this is.

And it's pages of that. This is an entire page of every single word on the page redacted and there's there's there's pages of it. This is your this is your transparent Securities Exchange Commission. Holy moly. You were going somewhere. You were going somewhere about this. Why did we do this? Well I would I've saying is it's not even privileged. There's no reason to redact it. Someone could ask me, are you the lawyer for Pat? I say, sure, I'm not going to tell you what we talk about. But it's not, I can't say, you know what I mean?

These firms brag. If you go on his firm, Simpson Thatcher, though brag, we represent Google, we represent Yahoo, we were part of the Ali Baba IPO. They brag about who their clients are, but in a deposition on taxpayer dollars, we can't get to know what you're talking about. We fired up, man. I got because what do you do? What do you do as a citizen?

You're trying to live your life. You're trying to play by the rules. They're setting the rules. You're trying to play by the rules. And then they come and whenever they want, they change them and then you get no recourse. The way you feel right now is the way I felt on Christmas Eve this time last year.

I felt just like that, and that's why I filed the lawsuit. It's a helpless, infuriating feeling, man. This is the type of shit that makes you want to get the... But here's a question for you. Yep. So... But here's a question for you. Yep. So the bigger names that are supporters of Ethereum,

it's not small names. No, these are big names. Big, right? The big hedge funds that are bullish on Ethereum, these are not small names, these are very, very well known names, right? That your time of fortress. Yeah. Ark, investment group, a breven, Renaissance tech. There's some of these bigger names. Billions. Yeah, billions. So which means

they have access to, they are banking on them being it. So is this a situation where Ethereum doesn't want an XRP and it's a form of wanting to eliminate competition. Is that all it is? Where's a form of, let's get rid of these guys and let's not put the attention on us, let's get the attention to XRP. Is that kind of what this is? Sure.

I think Joe Lubin said it best. I said when he said that every altcoin is spectacularly disadvantaged when compared to Ethereum. He said, Bitcoin and Ether, we've been blessed. We have the regulatory pass. We have the free pass. These other folks don't. And look at how much activity went to Ethereum since that speech in 2018. What half an FTs are on Ethereum?

More articles came out. I'm looking at this article. Ethereum, Joe Lubin, defense SEC, Amid ripple lawsuit, as the SEC is facing a barrage of criticism for its scatter shot approach to regulatory cryptocurrencies. The much feared regulatory agency has a supporter within the industry. Consensus, CEO, Joe Lubin, and in a recent interview with the information Lubin, who is known as one Ethereum co-foundersers claims that the SEC chair Gary demands for greater authority and regulating cryptos are justified. The head of Ethereum Development Studio says that the agency has a lot of

legit arguments, may have legit arguments in the cases that are being discussed right now while ripple the company that was sued by the SEC in December over its unregistered security sales, accuses the agency of stifling innovation in the U.S. Lubin does not think that is the case. I don't believe the SEC is trying to squelch innovation and he continues making other comments about a Ripple's adamant that ex-operated on fairly by the SEC. A speech by William Henneman, the SEC's former top official in Wuchi, said that Ether was not an unregistered security, became a breeding ground for conspiracy theories about potential interests within the XRP community. Some are convinced that Hinman had skinned the game merely because of his ties to Simpson,

thatcher, law firm, which is member of the Enterprise Ethereum Alliance. Yet the SEC made it clear that it has not taken an official position on its regulatory status. theory of alliance, yet the SCC made it clear that it has not taken an official position on its regulatory status, and Hinman was only expressing his personal opinion. Ripple, CEO Brad, is careful about his words, choice, steering clear of pedaling, free pass conspiracy theories in a recent interview, however, he said that the timing of the lawsuit was suspicious. So now, why is everybody likes dogecoin? What is Brad's issue with dogecoin?

I don't know other than I think it comes down to the utility argument that you brought up where you said Elon's being smart. Elon knows exactly what you said, right? So he's going to get, you know, him and Mark Cuban who's also into doge, they're selling their merchandise, Dallas Maverick merchandise, Tesla merchandise, and they're using smart. They're using doves as a means of payment. And so it's going to drive it up. And he's right. The reality is doves coin as a means of payment, transaction is better than Bitcoin on the network. There's no doubt about it. Bitcoin right now, it's digital gold, it's a store of value, and that's why you should buy it. That's the use case for Bitcoin.

You know, Ethereum, it's the smart contracts and they're the two point dollar trades. And all that's going to happen, that's their story. With Ripple, it is these superior payment transactions. You can literally send, there's a guy named Michael Aarrington and he moved $50 million into his balance sheet and it cost him $30. Well, that's the argument that I had heard against XRP was the drug trafficking argument. Like, okay, you can buy $2 million a cocaine and have it in Columbia for $30 in 10 minutes. And that's, so it's so it's gonna make the drug trafficking international drug trafficking and all smuggling, you know,

that much easier. And I'm saying like, well, they're doing it anyway. Well, it's also, it's also, listen, that it's all fought about the criminal stuff because it's a public ledger. The CIA and the FBI have come out and said that they basically hope that terrorists and use the distributed ledger. You can find them. It's an open ledger.

He said that this is better for the FBI because now they can cash to bad guy better. I don't know if that's true or not, but that's what he said. They're full of shit anyway, man, because look, they got a problem with the technology that could do this, but then the president's son is selling a painting for $2 million. Like, okay, and then the president's son is selling a painting for two million dollars. Like, okay, and then we just wasn't leaving. Beautiful paintings. This guy's amazing.

Well, I mean, this guy's incredible. I'd rather have the laptop. The same one, you're for discrediting this. How dare I? Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's, he's a real crack artist with the paintbrush. But I can't speak for bread. I just think it comes down to that utility argument. I read the article to you on why he said that.

So here's the article that just came out on why he has an issue. I think it's on page five. Let me see here on the bottom. OK, here we go. Bitcoin news. Dogecoin is loved by all except Brad Garland House. Dogecoin is arguably one of the world's most popular and most successful cryptocurrencies in the world,

starting out as a joke roughly eight years ago and the currency has been established as one of the most leading digital assets of today. As a market cap, we're more than a billion dollars and as garden attention from Elon, men mark human clearly. It's popular, and everyone seems to like it except Brad, Garland Gowza, CEO Ripple and recent interview stated that the asset was not good and long run when it came to expansion of the crypto space he mentioned. I'm actually not convinced somewhat

controversially, I guess, that Dogecoin is good for the crypto market. Dogecoin has some inflationary dynamics itself that would make it reluctant to hold. It's interesting that these words are coming from Brad, whose coin XRP was ultimately outdone by Dogecoin. At one point, Doge eventually rose so high early this year that it became world's fourth largest

cryptocurrency by the market and beat out XRP now. Though now things have calmed down a bit, pushing Doge to the side garlic, I've stated that the still feels Bitcoin holds the top position in crypto. When it came down to crypto, a currency serving as an inflationary hedge tool, he commented, when people are concerned about holding a fiat currency that might be inflating and that's devaluing They're looking at how can I hold other assets that won't have that same inflationary dynamic his menacing with Dogecoin is that currency does not employ inflationary Barricades the way Bitcoin does as of now doge has approximately 132 billion units outstanding while and it's an additional 5 million new coins

Inter circulation every year. So I guess that's the reason why he has an issue with them in regards to inflationary barricades. Well XRP has 100 billion, it's not going to get any more sort of a similar argument to Bitcoin instead of 21 million, it's 100 billion. But at the same time, everyone's in their tribe in crypto. Crypto is just like a microcosm of everything else in society.

Everyone's in their tribe. You know, when you had a curtain, he's a BSV guy. Yeah. That's it. Like you asked him, well, is there going to be two or three coins that are going to, you know, come out of this and be winners? Yeah, BSV is the one true God. You know, that was it.

Whereas I take that position, there's what, 7,000 coins, most of them going to go away. But there's going to be, you know, a handful that make it. I think XRP is going to make it in the payment sector. I think Bitcoin is going to continue to be that digital gold, you know, a store of value. And if Ethereum, if they end up figuring it out, then I think it could ultimately flip Bitcoin even. It could flip Bitcoin even. I think it could.

Listen, you know, a lot of people say, oh, you're the XRP attorney and you're hating on Ether. I have a higher investment in Ethereum than I do XRP. This isn't about me. This is about what's right. It's about that reaction that you had as you were learning this, right? And the only difference is I have a law degree

and I said I can do something about it. I read some where the supporters of XRP, I saw Kutcher, I said I can do something about it. I read some word, the supporters of XRP. I saw Kutcher, I saw Madonna, Snoop Dogg, put the most random character, Bill Clinton. Yeah, they, what is Bill Clinton and XRP? Let me tell you something about Ripple. You know, we've already went over their defense line up, right? They're lawyers.

They had Bill Clinton be their keynote speaker at their annual event. On their board, just this year is a former US treasure. Her name, Rosie, something is Rios, is on the dollars and the $100 bills. She was the treasure of the United States. She's on their board. So they have top notch people from the industry, not just the crypto industry, but the financial industry. Are they putting Bill Clinton on that list because he spoke at an event? Are they putting Bill Clinton on that list

because he owns XRP? Maybe they paid him an XRP to speak? I don't know. I don't know. I think it's more about just that list. This is a fiat guy. I don't know why. Former president coming on board.

Yeah, because it's the right guy to have on your side. Because you're dealing with a lot of liberals on the opposing side that wanna regulate the hell out of you and a phone call from Bill Clinton and even scarier phone call us from his wife. You kind of have to take that call and say, I tell her, we'll leave XRP. Just look at that sentence that you said, man,

2021 is such a trip. There's a lot of liberals that wanna regulate you. These words don't even mean anything anymore. You know who owns XRP? Tim Draper. I know. He owns XRP, I saw the Wolf of Wall Street. Jordan Belfort.

Jordan Belfort owns XRP, and I think Jason DeRulo and maybe exhibit. Maybe exhibit, I think I saw him on Twitter. Exit my own ex-favorite exhibit songs of all times. Yeah, he helped back in the 90s. Yeah, but it's a shame. People in the rap game only for the money and the fame extra large. Do you think, and John feel free to chime in on this. Do you think government has always been this overtly corrupt or are we just finally seeing it

because of access to information? I actually think this is the most annoying time to be a corrupt government official because social media is the ultimate great equalizer. So if they control the great equalizer, which is social media, why do you think so many people out of nowhere started saying how much they hate Facebook?

I'm sorry, why do you hate Facebook? Why do you hate Facebook? Okay, so take Twitter out. Does Trump get elected? No. If Twitter is not started, your president is today, your president today is Hillary Clinton. Absolutely.

If Jack Dorsey and those guys don't start today, the Twitter your president hates is Hillary Clinton. Absolutely. If Jack Dorsey and those guys don't start today to Twitter, your president is Hillary Clinton today. Let's give a great speech. Or pictures on a wall, right? And she, unfortunately, she would have not had the masterclass, which is a shame, because that masterclass on how to handle a loss would have never been there, right?

And that Newsweek magazine would have never been there, because that Newsweek magazine would have been official. So, so, great, that's an all official. So I think I think all of these government officials who were able to play the games back in the days like what he's shown right now with what he called it. The reduction is what's that 50 years ago? What's that 100 years ago? What you show this right now a person who's extremely interested in this guess what's the first thing they're doing? What are you talking about? I'm gonna Google it back then you couldn't Google it, right? Kennedy files. They just buried the Kennedy files for all those years as well. Yeah, so you know Bob

person there right where have he's a former chairman of limbra and He sits currently. I think he as a board member for, I think consulting for Bain and he was a former president with Hart for Back in the Days. A credible guy, lots of experience in insurance. Bain capital? That's not Bain Capital, yeah. Mitt Romney? Well, he used to be Mitt Romney, and it's not been a part of that for a while.

But yeah, Bain is a top 10 biggest hedge fund in the world. It's one of the bigger ones. Bob sits on our board. Bob and I are in Dallas last week. We're having our annual big board meeting that we have and we're having conversations. And during lunch, he says, during dinner at the court, as he says, how much do you read?

Like, everything I'm talking like, how much do you read? Are you always reading? Are you always collecting data? And we're going through it. And he asked a question about this one guy. They used to be at a big insurance trainer back in the days and I googled him. And I say, Thomas, this guy says, yeah.

And then 30 minutes later he says, you know, when I was coming up in the game, I couldn't get an answer to any question as quickly as you just got it. The edge your generation has over me is any question can be answered like this. I had to go to the library to find the articles that that guy wrote to find the book. Access to access. Because I couldn't even get the book. You couldn't go find the book. You had to wait a few weeks to go find

who sells an older book of a guy. Today, boom, boom, boom, boom. So access to information. The speed of access to information has both positive and negative. The negative to me is we get angry or faster. We have anxiety more than ever before. Stress higher before.

You know, arguments are higher. Because I want to fight you now, back in the days I had 30 minutes that I came home to fight my wife. Today I can fight you right now while I'm driving and texting and calling it. So you're literally never off the clock. You're never off the clock.

That is like heroin, man. It's so dicting right now. These to say the average person touches this 150 times a day, what 150 times a day? A couple thousand times a day, right? But the positive side of what this has done is these politicians, these establishments, they hate this. Yeah, but they doesn't stop them.

Well, yeah, but you know the scene where Joe Piston got all these mobsters arrested and they all walked out in one by one by one by one. Yeah, I Don't know I think You know a scene like that could be happening very soon and it needs to happen one time That's all needs to happen. Yeah to set the tone. Probably needs to happen one time needs to happen one time all these guys talk about ones your last time you saw You know a person that's you know with money never get arrested and all about, one's the last time you saw a person that's with money, never get arrested and all this other stuff. One's the last time you saw politicians walking up for manipulation behind closures and

all this other stuff. I'm going to give credit to AOC, which is something I rarely do. You know what AOC said the other thing? She said, I don't know any stock. Why not? She says, I think it's not fair for people in office like myself to own and invest in any stock because we have more access to information than the rest of you do. That's a shot at Nancy Pelosi. That's a shot at Nancy Pelosi.

And the best portfolio tracker of all time. Exactly. The best portfolio tracker of all time. Tick tockers follow what her husband does next and boom, 88% whatever the number is. Unbelievable. It's unbelievable. So, you know, there's people like that that are going to annoy the hell out of the establishment. She's a socialist economically. We're completely on opposite sides.

But if there's one thing you may be on the same side with her, she's anti-establishment, full on anti-establishment. So I don't think the days of playing politics and games and all that stuff. Can you pull up what Elizabeth Warren and Elon must just want to do? Did you see that Twitter word there? That was great.

It was beautiful, man. So Elizabeth Warren says, let's change the rigged tax code. So the person of the year will actually pay taxes and stop free loading off of everyone else. Like she's trying to get her audience. That's not even the best one. He had two other. It's not the best one.

Is that her that if you had the rest of it? You got to get the rest of it. And then you're almost responsible. And says, please don't call the manager on me, Senator Karen. He's like, you're like that one lady that just always gets mad at everybody. She says, you're like one of my friends, old lady moms that would always angry.

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Dance, Gerard, I dance your angry. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Dance your question. I think pads 100% right. I think the revolving doors always been there. But they've gotten to the point where this is just blatant. Yeah. This is so blatant, but they did not count on the social media.

I wouldn't be sitting here right now, being interviewed by you guys. If it wasn't for Twitter and it wasn't for the social media, the XRP Army utilizing it. Jay Clayton, we've been hitting CNBC every day. They bring Jay Clayton on who is a contributor to CNBC and they'll ask him a question and just says, hey, your critics say there's a conflict and he goes, I'm not going to comment. And then they brought him on today, again, and she goes, listen, everywhere I go, it's the same question,

are you gonna address the ethics issue? And he goes, I'm not gonna talk about pinning litigation. There's no pinning litigation about your ethics. Yeah, right? Like, we're questioning your integrity and you won't defend yourself. That doesn't sound like you. You were the former SEC chairman

of the United States Security Exchange Commission. And you can't answer a few questions. But this is kind of where I'm going with that. It's like, this is what it half scares me and half infuriates me. I feel like learning history from before I was alive, at least these people had the good sense to try to hide their corruption. There was a fear of public retribution. Now, we may not have had access to the information, but there was a fear like, oh my God, these people find out we're in big trouble, that just doesn't

exist anymore. I mean, what they're doing with the, you know, what the FDC is doing with the Pfizer shots. And yeah, we'll let you know what's in them. We'll let you know what we knew in 55 years. Now it's 75 years. On its base point, I mean, that's just so insulting. It's so infuriating that you threaten to people's livelihoods. You said, you gotta get this or you're not gonna be allowed to fly. You're not gonna, we're gonna get you fired from your job unless you get this thing.

Okay, what's in it? You, we'll tell you in 75 years. What? Like, bro, what? Like, and it's not just that. It's over and over and over again. The overt corruption that they just, they do it, and then they move on.

And there's literally, there's this air of like, yeah, yeah, we did it. What just, they do it, and then they move on. And there's literally, there's this era of like, yeah, yeah, we did it. What are you going to do about it? How many times is JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs been fine from manipulating gold and silver markets? And it just keeps happening and happening. You know, if you make a billion, you're willing to pay $100 million. Yeah, it's a good business model.

It absolutely is. Yeah, so the inferior, and I don't know, so is that on the public? We have access to this information, but we don't hold these people accountable. Is that on us? Is this, have we just, has this environment just created a new brand of overtly corrupt politicians

and just don't care what the public thinks? They feel insulated from any sort of, I mean, Maxine Waters literally told people to go burn down American cities. Literally did. It's like, get out there. If you see people that you politically disagree with in restaurants, make it hard on them. That's terrorism.

That's the literal definition of terrorism. Well, I mean, using violence to promote politics is the literal definition of terrorism. Again, that is why the people want to see an anti-establishment in the White House. That's why half the country wants to see an anti-establishment person in the White House, to see if they're going to hold those people accountable. It's the biggest part. Look, you know, they say people get into politics with the right intentions. I'm going to go, correct this injustice that's happening. And you're in it for a year, three years, five years,

eight years, a reelection's coming up. You need a favor. You give this guy the favor. He gives you the money. You get reelected now your part of establishment. Now your crusade, your cause, your true believer, you're no longer a statesman. Now you're officially what?

You're part of the establishment. You're done. And they're gonna hold you to it for the rest of your life. It's game over, right? OK. This is why a person that's coming, that's not part of the establishment that annoys the hell out of everybody is what American is today.

Because if they talk about the stuff that these guys don't, they go to the same country clubs. They go to the same parties. They go hang out at the same places. They were the same fraternity as college, right? You want to pull out what Musk said. This is the whole Twitter says stop projecting you remind me of When I was a kid and my friends angry mom would just randomly yell at everyone for no reason Please don't call the manager on me senator Karen just look at her

She looks like she's not really that happy with her life. You know she looks bitter and upset and frustrated that Elon Musk doesn't pay taxes, it's just like again, it's just such gaslighting. It's such nonsensical bullshit. How much do you think he pays and payroll taxes alone? How many jobs have they got? That's what I'm saying. That's why I want them. How many jobs have these infrastructure?

The infrastructure that, yeah. Yeah, yeah, like what if they added? You know, I can tell you, I grew up in Detroit, single mother, welfare, food stamps, growing up, I did not hate the wealthier rich man. I want to know what he knew. What can you tell me that I don't know so that I can do that?

This class warfare is just gotten out of hand, you know what I mean? Well, they're doing on purpose. It's like, can you imagine that we're going to only tax unrealized gains of billionaires? Unrealized gains? Yeah. Unrealized gains. Unrealized gains.

Did that come out of your mouth? That you're gonna tax someone for unrealized gains? So, so Elon Musk. The tax on the moon, you haven't made it. Elon Musk's stock price goes through the roof. We're gonna tax them, but then when it crashes, when there's a recall or something, he can't write it off.

Did you see the article about what's going on in LA right now? Because you know, all these guys that are saying this stuff, sometimes they say this unrealized gains, defund the police, that's a good idea. And then they're like, oh shit, we didn't say, the Republicans said defund the police. No, no, you came up with defund the police.

Yes. And now they're all increasing their budget to higher cops, because in LA, did you see what happened in LA at the grove, like what they have around the grove? Did you see what the type in LA Grove fence? Did you see what the LAPD put out for travelers coming to LA? No. Like don't wear anything flashy. If somebody, if somebody tries to rob you, try to negotiate them, just give them what they're gonna. Look at this. This is CNN. Famous LA shopping center ads barbed wire like fence to deter smashing grabs. This isn't, we're talking about CNN here. Look at this. This doesn't make any

sense. Businesses are worried today in LA. FYI, yesterday somebody sent a story saying famous, look at that. That's crazy. Yeah, that doesn't make any sense by the wire fencing. The Apple store in Portland, from Robert Grobel. Did you pull up the Apple store in Portland after this? Watch by the the wire fencing the apple store portley from rubbery girl did you pull up the apple store in portland after watch this the wire fencing in place didn't fully deter robbery at the grove on november twenty second when a group of eighteen to twenty looters use sledgehammers and an electric bicycle to smash into the complex north strum after hours

they managed to steal at least five thousand of merchandise and cost fifteen thousand dollars in damages to police will later recover merchandise After hours, they managed to steal at least 5,000 of merchandise and cost $15,000 and damages through police, later recovered merchandise, arrested three people in connection with the burger. The video, somebody sent me a video yesterday to check this out. Guy Waxen, take stuff. He's at Walmart.

They can't say anything to him. He just walks out. He's that running guy. He just walks out. Then he walks out. He ties his shoelaces outside in front of the stairs. You're you're you're just still you supposed to run. That's the protocol. He's dying to shoelaces. I got a little bit of I'm not going to get arrested. So sometimes people are leaving L.A. I said

dude, you have not seen the ex exodus. California is about to express it hasn't started yet. People think it started because Elon, you know, all these guys have a lot of success. Joe Rogan has even started it. Yeah, just wait, just wait to see what happens there. But yeah, so these policies that you're talking about. By the way, I went and looked at the stock act that came up with some people are talking about that AOC has money and all this other stuff.

US News did an article saying, what are Congress members trading? In 2013, a amendment to the stock act came up, made some changes clouding the transparency and accessibility of Congress members, financial transactions, most notably, it removed the requirement for electronic filing in a searchable, sortable database of transactions. However, one useful aspect that a legislation

which requires members to publicly report financial transactions and However, one useful aspect that a legislation which requires members to publicly report financial transactions and stocks bonds and other assets within 45 days, that remains, which is good. This is why people know what Pelosi owns. But there's still people that are scurrying that, like Republican Tommy Tuberbaugh, the ex-football coach. He refuses to admit what he sells all the time. Like he got caught selling Ali Baba stock months after he sold it. Now he's got, by the way, for people that don't want to look it up, Tommy Tubberl has some massive short puts on both Apple, Microsoft and first quarter of 2022. I think Mr. Tubberl became a three trillion out of count. If you believe, if you believe Tommy Tommy Tuber will he thinks that the first quarter of 2022 is gonna be brutal.

What's the first one? I share that opinion. So you shared that opinion? I have the opinion. I also, fair disclosure, had the opinion that Bitcoin was gonna run out by now. But I think it's gonna run out in the first quarter followed by a massive sell-off.

Like crypto tech stocks. How bad do you think it's going to be? 20, 20, 30, 30% so you think Bitcoin's going to drop to what? 25, 30? My prediction of Bitcoin hits over 100,000 and drops back to where it is today. Oh, okay. Yeah, so it's now you're not saying it's going to drop to 20 or 15 or 30 or anything like that. I mean, it could. I think it's going to be a massive. I think there's too much money in it right now. Yeah. But after the run up, I think that I think it could go from 150 back to 50. Yeah, 30. That's not that's not something that's going to move the

the long play guys. What does a palm say? Nearly 85% of Bitcoin owners never sell their Bitcoin. They keep it. They just sit on it. So these are not guys that are churning and burning. Of course, the other 15% is just buying it as a stock and they're pumping them, but many of the true believers are hanging on to it. Why do you think the first quarter of 2022 is gonna be so bad, or the holiday revenues are not gonna be what they normally are,

is that what the idea is here, like why on earth? I mean, it could start be happening now. I obviously know one can time the market. I mean, I just think that- The senators seem to do it pretty good. Well, that's true They're talented. They're smart. They have degrees from Pretty good. Yeah, it's a different kind of a world. They're living in Let me let me see which other story I wanted to bring up here before rap. Oh, bye, but did you hear about Keanu Reeves? What the Keanu Reeves talk about? So interesting take on Kiana Reaves.

Did you see that one girl whose story went viral? Yeah, with the mother. How awesome is that mom's like, I'm about to take a picture with Kiana Reaves. She's like, I have no idea what this guy is. But I'll take a picture with Kiana Reaves. Whatever. What do you mean?

It's viral. Here's Kiana Reaves. Okay. Matrix star Kiana Reaves owns crypto. Skeptic 11FTs says we cannot have metaverse be invented by Facebook. Famous Hollywood actor, the editor of the Metaverse,

I'm gonna say some fun with tokens. During the interview, Reeves commented on a metaverse on Facebook, the social media giant that recently changed his name to meta, can we just not have metaverse be invented by Facebook? He said on the subject of non-fungible tokens, Reeves was asked whether he has seen Matrix NFTs for the upcoming Matrix vs. Reaction movie, he admitted that he has not seen them and wondered

if he and Moss are getting paid at all for them. When asked what he thought about the concept of digital scarcity, Reeves laughed and added that they are still easily reproduced. What are your thoughts on NFTs? Well, I think the whole metaverse is, I'm trying to get my... That around it? I really am.

But like, for example, Nike, you're gonna be able to go in the metaverse and go into a Nike store in the metaverse and buy a non-fungible token and then come out to the real world and then buy that real-world shoe. Yeah. Like, it's an interplay, but I mean,

do I have some mana, some sand? I have some of those tokens, but I'm still trying to get my head around it, you know, the buying land and the metaverse. Patches told you, man, if you're on your phone, 2,500, 3,500 times a day, the next, the next, the next progression is in the phone man and again the dopamine is going to be something that our brains are not going to be able to get off of you're going to be able to live

your life as your idealized self in the in the metaverse you want to be six foot five you want to have abs you want to dunk you want you want your girlfriend to look like Barbie all that's possible in the metaverse it's not possible in the real world. So what do you two think of in FTs? So I think it's a beautiful way to log in money. Yeah, I don't think it's going the way. I think it's been around for a while. I mean, if you played any video games and you would buy the additional stuff

that would come with it, buy a weapon for five bucks, buy this for 10 bucks, buy this for 20 bucks, I remember one time me and my friends, okay, Stephen Ophill were in, where were we? We're in Panama, okay. And we're at the Panama Canal and my friend is sitting down his phone's playing this game. I don't know what he clashed up something. So he's playing this game. Clashed of tights. Clashed of tights. Yeah. And I said, so what's going on here? And one the guy says, you know, he's spent already $5,000 on that game. I said, how much?

He said, $5,000. I said, what do you do with $5,000 on this game? He said, give video games. Like I remember, Street Fighter was $74.95. Now I remember when he came out, I was like, he said, oh, no, this is different. Let me tell you what I'm buying. Look at the weapon.

Look at this. Look at that. Look at this. What are you talking about? So if a 40 year old Dechamelianner, which is that friend of mine, is that's exactly the situation he said, if he's spending $5,000 on a game, he's essentially buying non-fungible tokens. So it's been around for a long, long time.

It's officially now at a point where they're trying to get the rest of the world to know that this is the direction we're going. Well, here's nothing you can do about. Here's what's screwy about what you just said. So what you do in those games is you buy time. Because as you increase your castle, as you increase your land, it takes longer to farm, it takes longer to build. It's a class of clans.

Yeah, it's a class of clans. Yeah, class of Titans is better, but the class of clans is good too. The, anyway, so the, the, the, the, the the point I'm trying to make is that in the metaverse, one of the things that if you want to get real trippy twilight zoney, the logical conclusion of this is downloading your consciousness into the metaverse, living forever as your idealize self as long as you can afford to buy more time, right? So as long as you can afford and that's a movie, buy more time, or lake. What was the movie? Yeah, I was in a constant time. I don't know what it was called. Yeah, so I mean, but that's that's

I don't think it's going away. Look, there's two things that's gonna drive NFTs and the meta. Here's what it is number one What is your system when you lay in bed and you close your eyes? Where do you go to? So, so you're either thinking about issues you're dealing with. You're thinking about your kids, your husband, your wife, your girlfriend, your boyfriend, your mom's self, your dad's self, your business, a job interview, your project, something. Or you're fantasizing about something. Look, oh my gosh, how's it going to be when I go to Europe and my brothers, your brain just goes, right? Okay, that's a meta, essentially.

You're living in Lala land and we've been doing this for a while, except it's your own meta that I cannot be a part of. It's only one person's meta, it's your meta. And I'm concerned about the meta you want. I don't know if I want to go to hell. I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know't know if I want to go to hell. I don't know if I'm going to go to hell. I don't know if I'm going to go to hell. Yeah, my one is real sticky in my meta. My meta is sticky.

Some people's meta, it ain't no way. It's a whole different thing. You don't even want to smell my meta. Okay, but that is a form of meta, right? And here's the other part. Why don't think this is going away. I think, like somebody said, what an idiot, who the hell would spend $5,000?

It's called competition. And capitalism is based on competition. We like to compete. We want to do better. We want to be on a leader's bulletin. We want to be ranked. We want to have something to say here's what I am. As long as your imagination doesn't go away.

And as long as competition's going to be the main currency, NFT and Meta's not gonna go away. Did it? It's immortality. It's so much better than that. It's immortality. If you had the option, and if you had the resources to live forever, your family, live forever,

would you do it? I mean, it's not even a hypothetical question. It's maybe a matter of technological advancement. If you wrote a book about it, I wrote a book about it. The fiction book, you've read the book, the book is about that. That's partly a meta and took me 10 years to finish this book. And right now we just finished it, right now we're pitching it to publishers. We just finished the, what do you call it? The marketing for the book and we'll be going to different publishers to see what direction we're going to go with this but that is

essentially what you're talking about what happens when your meta life is so much better than your real life that's the that's the problem everybody's going to be the John may want to put that my close it's not a problem of the of the system it's the backbone of the system, it's the backbone of the system. Your idealized self, your dream world, is going to be so much better than the real world. You're never coming out. There's gonna be people who become David Thoreau, go to the woods, live deliberately, I wanna feel, I wanna look at the real sky, I wanna breathe the real air,

and there's gonna be those half of society that they're going to be real. They want to go sky diving, they want real danger, they want to feel real things, they want to have unprotected sex, they want to feel life. And then there's going to be people that are in the metaverse, that are safe, they're totally controlled, they can't say anything bad, they have to acquiesce all their freedom to whatever controlling organism, but they get the trade-off as they get to be their idealized self. They get to do whatever they've ever dreamed of doing that they can't do in the real world, they can do it here.

And that's the serotonin and the dopamine that that's gonna cause. I mean, right now, you've got guys that, you know, there's a great comedian that I know, Mike Sicoli, unbelievable guy. He goes, my life is so much better in Grand Theft Auto than my regular life. And I die a hundred times an hour.

He's like, I die a hundred times an hour in GTA. My life is so much better in the game. What percentage of people do you think prefer their imaginary life over their real life? What do you think that is? I mean, it's high. Of course it's high. So why do people do drugs?

Why do people do alcohol? Why do people do reality? To escape reality. I mean, we didn't want it to escape reality for a long time. Most people's escaping a reality is video games or, you know, smoking weed or doing ecstasy and doing whatever they do. That is their form. I just don't want to deal with the life I currently have.

And there's nothing I can do about it. So you're bitter about it. You have a way to escape it. So that is part of the motive and the attraction. I can't escape it. And it's a different form of a drug. And I'm going to be addicted to it. Pat, that's just kind of how this thing's going to be.

I think the drug analogy is the perfect thing. Are your parents still alive? If you don't want my answer? No. Okay. Imagine if their consciousness were uploaded to the metaverse. And you can go to the metaverse. They have to do with your mother whenever you want it to.

That's very true. What would that be worth to you? A lot. Especially if she was cooking. What would it matter to you that the food you were eating wasn't real? No, probably not, right? Not if it was her chicken and dumplings and cornbread. That's making me hungry, man.

Yeah, 53. I mean, that's, you know, look, we think about the crazy things and we think about like, you know, the ability to fly and all this like fantasy stuff. And that's definitely part of it. But then there's that actual realization of like, you know what man, like if my parents, if my parents consciousness gets uploaded, I mean look, my parents are a little bit older,

I go home twice a year, my parents live another 10 years, I got 20 times to see my mother, 20, 2-0. And that's the whole reason to work people. The whole reason to work, the whole reason to put up with the bullshit and make money is because money's worth time. And if you can double that and see your parents

four times a year, you double the amount in time you have with them. The metaverse you can see them forever. Forever. Yeah. How many people want to have a conversation with their deceased parents? That's the price point. I mean, listen, the whole part about being a born again, what is the idea that you're eventually

going to see the people you love that are no longer here with you. In heaven. In heaven, yeah. Meta is a form of a secular heaven is how it's being sold. But I want to wrap up with this story and then we go off. It's on page two, at the bottom of page two, if you want to look at that. It's a CNBC story, own everything, but bubble assets. Tech and crypto recommends institutional investor, Hall of Famer, Rich Bernstein, which we know who he is.

He has got a big reputation. He's a winner. He's done well for himself. On one side, he says, we have all that I would call the bubble assets, tech innovation disruption cryptocurrencies. This is Rich Bernstein who ran strategy at Merrill Lynch. On the other side of this, CSAW, you have literally everything else in the world. I think if you're looking at 2022 into 2023, you want to be have literally everything else in the world. I think if you're looking at 2022 into 2023,

you want to be in the everything else in the world side of that CESA. His number one pick is Energy, a group he listed as a top play coming into 2021. Earlier this year, Bernstein called Oil, the most ignored bull market. Bernstein also sees cryptocurrency as a major problem. Last June, he warned the rush to own Bitcoin

and other cryptocurrencies was becoming dangerously parabolic. Cryptos are the biggest financial bubble ever in the history. This is just a monster one. Do you agree with them? Well, it depends on the timing. When he says so, for example, if Bitcoin goes from 47,000 to 150,000, and then crashes, is he right?

Well, I guess he is, but Kathy Wood takes the opposite, right? She says we're not in a bubble right now of our investing. And so it all comes with perspective. I don't think we've seen the parabolic run on Bitcoin that he's describing. And I certainly don't think it's the biggest bubble ever. Do I think everything is in the bubble? When you pump this much liquidity into the economy,

then sure, you're going to create bubbles. And so it's all a matter of perspective. Do I think that there's going to be some type of crash, some point next year? Yes. You know, is that the later half, is that the first half, the first quarter, I don't know. I wish I did.

But I think he's right that we're headed for a major correction, I just don't know when, you know what I mean? Well, you know, we talked about the tech bubble, was tech really a bubble? I mean, was it a bubble? Because look at what Apple is now. I'm saying, look at what Apple is now. Look at what Microsoft is now. There's a was it a bubble? Because look at what Apple is now. 99 it was. I'm saying, look at what Apple is now. Yeah, look at what Microsoft is showing.

There's a difference between a bubble and disruptive technology. There's a difference between a bubble and changing industries. You know, like if somebody was like back in the day, you know, a car costs $500 of Ford Model T. Well, I can get a horse for $25. I'm never spending $500 for a car.

That's an ass nut, you know? And then, you know, there's a million dollar cars now. That drives them when he gets bored on the weekends. Like, is that a bubble? Is that parabolic? It was a changing technology. Like, I think you said it best. It's a matter of perspective of time.

Like, if Ripple, if you guys settle, if you guys win this case, and it goes up to $1.50, what's crazy is people will be like, eh, it's just a 200, it's a 200%. Like, that's not even good. It'd take crypto anymore. It's like, what, 10 times, 20 times.

Yeah, if it's not 9,000X, it's not worth my time. Like it's, so in that aspect of it, there's a speculation bubble, but I don't think, I mean, if you're oil, man, I mean, with Exxon, with the activists that they have, like, yeah, look, you always be in energy, always be in things that people use. It's not sexy, you know, but you got to be in things that people use. But you think crypto is going away?

To me, bubble means it's going away. Yeah. Is real estate a bubble right now? I think real estate is a mathematical formula, you know, meaning like if interest rates go up and it really says it's going to take a hit, you know, Goldman Sachs is predicting rates are going to go up seven times in 2022. Wow. That's a lot of times when Goldman says seven times.

I'd rate. There's no way. Oh, listen, I, I, in a midterm election year, you think that look at, look at the political pressure that he's dealing with. You think that they're going to let you hear what Biden said yesterday said yesterday? He says, Republicans, I just want to tell you, it's going to be a bad midterm election for you. Did you hear him say that? Yeah, I heard him say that.

I think they're getting right. They're getting right. Well, the number is 63. I think it's 61 or 63. The record is held by the most seats to flip. And the person that owns the record is this former boss, Barack Obama. So we're going to see what he's going to flip that many.

Like he's going to lose that many seeds. Well, I hope they lose the seeds because I wanna see Gary Ginsler and committee answering some questions. It'd be interesting to see that taking place. How can people put pressure? What can people do there, listen to this, help put public pressure on them

so that this investigation happens? If they go to crypto, www.crypto.us, cryptolaw.us, if they go to that, there's a tab in the law.us.us. If they go to that, there's a tab in the law.us. Yes. If they go to that, there's a tab connect to Congress and that goes to your senators and your Congress representatives and you can put on pressure, simply say you want an investigation into this. You want the SEC to come answer questions under all these guys are skating, you know, their investigation into specifically investigation into the SEC and the filing of this case and the way it went down and the conflicts of interest conflicts of interest and here's the thing Only good can come from an independent investigation because when the let's say Pat

Jarrod let's say that there was no actual crime Let's say, Pat, Gerard, let's say that there was no actual crime. But when the appearance of impropriety rises to the level that it destroys public confidence. Credibility, yeah. Right? Then if you do an investigation and it's fair and it's independent and you come back and say no crime was committed, no quid pro quo, you know, but they could have done disclosures, done this better, fine. If there is a crime committed, if there was a quid pro quo, then justice is done.

What was the tweet that you said yesterday? You had a tweet yesterday, hey, let's let the truth, hey, let the truth fall where it may. Just a matter of time. Well, John, I'm glad we were able to make this work. Absolutely, thank you so much. We never do podcasts on Wednesday, but we did it because we wanted to have a sit down with you.

I'm very sure to hope the audience has enjoyed it and learned just as much as we have folks. If you don't follow John on Twitter, he posts stuff there regularly and he's very active. I suggest you go follow him on Twitter. What's your handle on Twitter, by the way? Johnny Deaton one. Johnny Deaton one. Yeah. Okay.

Johnny Deaton one on Twitter. You can find them there as well as we-N-1. One. Yeah. Okay. John E.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.D but tomorrow will be a Daniel. Take care guys. Bye bye bye bye. you you