PBD Podcast - "Khomeini Became A MONSTER" - Islamic Revolutionary Guard Founder CONFESSES How They Destroyed Iran | PBD Podcast | Ep. 548

Episode Date: February 14, 2025

The founder of Iran’s most feared military force, the Islamic Revolutionary Guard (IRGC), sits down with Patrick Bet-David to EXPOSE what really happened behind closed doors during the 1979 Iranian revolution.. Mohsen Sazegara, a former insider, reveals how the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps transformed from its original mission into a global power player—linked to Hezbollah, Hamas, and international conflicts.

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maybe reach out to TD Direct Investing. First of all, this IRGC is a monster. You're the co-founder of it with Khomeini. How many people you think it's directly and indirectly killed? My weapon is teaching the students, talking about the constitution of Islamic revolution, mobilizing the people, sending to war fronts to help the classic army of Iran. Everybody believed that Khomeini is a man of God. Killing after killing after killing after killing after killing.

You should have seen glimpses earlier, no? This is not what we want. Gradually I think that he became a monster too. If they can catch me, definitely they will kill me. One of the guys that reported to you killed your boss yeah you know what this sounds like sounds a little fishy conspiracy theory is attractive because it's like a story and you don't need to any fact when a problem is solved then you think it's easy their brain yes okay I can't happen

most sense most sense that smile on your face is cracking. You may be a good poker player. No I'm not. That smile is cracking. I got like so many questions I think two hours is not enough but let me ask this question from you. If you know the name Mohsen Sazeghara, today's interview is going to upset you a lot because you're probably Iranian and you know the fact that he's the founder of IRGC, the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps. He started in 1979 with Khomeini, never done a two-hour long-form podcast, finally agreed

to do this interview. When you're talking about Hezbollah, Houthis, Hamas, any of those proxy wars, any of those proxy troops that they have in the Middle East that's causing chaos all over the place, he's the founder of that organization. And the conversation today, the first hour, is super necessary for you to watch because it gives you the back story, the history of what he did, and at one point when he's working there in the floor where the president and Prime minister were killed by a man that reported directly to him He was in that building when Masood Kashmidi who reported to him. He was one of the guys that worked for him ends up

Killing the president of Iran at the time Raji and kills the prime Iran at the time, Rajeev, and kills the Prime Minister at the time, Mohammad Javad Bahonar, his direct report killed his boss. So imagine he, founder of IRGC, is reporting to the President and Prime Minister, his direct report killed them, and then afterwards he said that the person who killed them is dead. They even did a funeral and later on they found out he was never dead. That was not a true story. He had to go to jail for it. He talks about that. It was a little bit contentious when I brought that up. And when we talked about the Shah and some of the stories he told about the fact that he was the voice, like in all the tapes in Iran, this was one of the greatest campaigns ever to

cause a country to fall, a regime to fall. Khomeini was in France recording the tapes, sending them to Iran to be able to play for people to hear on what he was saying. And the first voice you would hear on those tapes was the gentleman that's here today. I had a mom for many different reasons. Obviously, I'm a child born in the revolution. I'm a revolution baby. I was born three born in the revolution. I'm a revolution baby. I was born three months before the revolution. So to me, these are things that I'm very much tied to, events that I saw.

And as a father, I'd like to one day go back and show my kids and say, your father was born here. That's not possible in today's regime. We talk about sanctions, we talk about Israel, we talked about why the fall happened in 1979. Like I said, the second half is extremely heated. I think 45 minutes of the second half is extremely heated that we actually get to things. One of the parts that was about the fact that Trump came up, brainwashing came up. He was not a fan of me using the word brainwashing.

But I respect the fact that he was willing to sit down and have a long-form interview. Nothing was off the table. There was nothing he said you can't talk about. Nothing. I asked any and every question I wanted to ask. And if the issue of Iran and the Middle East is something you're interested in, you're about to hear it from the founder of the organization called IRGC that's caused all the chaos in the Middle East since 1979.

With that being said, enjoy this podcast, this interview with Mohsen Sazegara. Did you ever think you would make it? I feel I'm so excited to taste sweet victory. Know this life meant for me Adam, what's your point? The future looks bright My handshake is better than anything I ever signed, right here You are a one on one?

My son's right, man I think I've already said this before Okay, so I have a very interesting guest with me here today. If you were to go online Rob and you just type in on Google IRGC, the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps. If you type that on Google, you will see to the right where it says founders. And if you go to founders, you'll see Khomeini and you will see my guest who's sitting in our podcast set right now Mohsen Sazegada.

Mohsen, it's great to have you on the podcast today. Thank you Pat for having me. Of course, so now when you look at this and you see you know around the world when people think about Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps and you're the founder of it and when we think about being a founder of something that you know tied to funding you know starting Hezbollah, tie to supporting Houthis, tie to Jihad, tie to, we can go so many different places. Like, the average person goes to a place of saying, this start of this organization in

1979, right after the revolution of February 3 months later with, you know, you and Khomeini, potentially could be the cost of millions of people's lives. That's the average person says that's what happened. For you what is the backstory to you and Khomeini starting IRGC? First of all this IRGC is a monster and when I look at it, it looks like you have a child and when he or she grows up become a killer, a murderer or a thug and somebody that you didn't expect it. IRGC idea actually was the idea of making a people army, like the army of Switzerland or Israel or National Guard in the U.S. And it started from the days in Neuflala Chateau, Paris, France, about 110 days Khomeini was over there and I was one of the member of his staff over there. At those days we thought that we will have a long battle with regime of Shah and especially US who backed Shah.

What year is that? 77? 78. 78? Okay. Yeah, the autumn of fall of 78 From October to January a that Second of February that how many were over there. I joined him after a week And I was one of the members of the team of the press because he had more than 200 interviews during those days and some other jobs that I did in that house but on those days we felt that we will have a long

battle with regime of Shah like Vietnam War or Algeria. So and we had no understanding of civil resistance, peaceful resistance. Although Islamic revolution succeeded with the civil resistance tactics like strikes like demonstrations peaceful demonstrations like giving flower to the soldiers in the streets but we thought that okay we should mobilize the people for a line battle but after victory of revolution and nobody expected, by the way, that just in three months Shah will leave Iran and the revolution succeeds. What do you think was the tipping point for you guys succeeding?

Was it Sinema Rex? What was the tipping point? The tipping point was those huge demonstration of the people in Tehran and other cities more than a million and a half on those days we claim two million and a half out of four million population of Tehran came to streets on Toswa and Ashura to holidays a Shia holidays and very peacefully people said that, okay, we don't want Shah. And we said, okay, that's a referendum. Everybody says that we don't want him. And right after the day of victory, I mean, because at the last scene, last days of fighting with regime of Shah, two days,

people attacked to garrisons, to police stations, took the guns, and the day after victory of revolution everybody had gone and the first priority for the country was how to keep it safe. For this reason, the idea of a people army for fighting with the regime was converted to making a people army, first of all, to secure the country, collect the weapons from the hands of the people. Second to... To take the guns away collect the weapons from the hands of the people, second to... To take the guns away from the people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because during the Shah people had guns after...

No, no. People attacked to garrison, it was prohibited during the Shah, like right now in Iran. It's not like the US. Second Amendment does not exist in Iran. No, there is no Second Amendment. So who are you guys trying to take weapons away from? The soldiers that were under the Shah's military or? The soldiers were in garrisons.

No, the ordinary people, even the old women, old men. There were some ridiculous scenes. You could see an old woman that taking a machine gun with lots of bullets taking out of a garrison why did you guys want to take the weapons away from citizens because first of all we had no idea that we can make it legalized like the US. Second, the security of the country, there were lots of, because police was absent, they went to their houses and it took time

that bring them back to their duties. And many of the, you know, thug people, many of the armed groups, many of the guerrilla groups, communists. Like a two day party? Fadoyan party, Fadoyan majority, minority, they were some Maoists and some separatists, everybody had gone and.

But you guys chose to take it away from everybody. So it doesn't matter whether you were from a group or not, let's get the guns away from people. Yeah, from the people and make the country secure. And second idea was to defend the country if we will be under attack by a foreign country. And those days we thought that the US will attack to Iran. We were wrong.

But a year and a half later Saddam Hussein from Iraq invaded Iran. And that idea worked, mobilizing the people, sending to war fronts to help the classic army of Iran, to defend the country. And the third idea was if we have two armed forces, then there will be, there will not be the danger of coup, military coup against the new board regime.

Why? Because we had the bitter experience of coup against nationalist government of Dr. Musaddegh in 1953. Because we knew that as soon as possible we should, you know, rebuild the army and keep it for the country and to defend the country. But at the same time without that we will be in danger if we don't have you know any idea how to Prevent any coup anyway these three ideas altogether and

that to write a Charter I was one of the writers of the charter and a provisional board of commanders were elected by the government of Bazargan, provisional government of Bazargan and the Council of Revolution that acted on those days like the Parliament of Iran. They allocated about two million dollars as the first budget. And this is for IRGC. Yeah.

Yeah, to start IRGC. I was with the Guard only three months because in that three months, first of all, I thought that, okay, it has been established. And second, I found out that I don't like these types of jobs. I was not a man of military and intelligence. There was more journalism for you. Yeah. journalism for you. Yeah, so I left the Guard after three months on May 1979 and I went to to national radio and television of Iran. The job that I liked

that and after a while I became head of national radio of Iran. Is that kind of like VOA? Not VOA but NPR? Would that be comparable to NPR in the US? No, that's governmental. I mean that it's owned by the government. Yours wasn't owned by the government or you were working with somebody that was owned by the government? No, no, no. The national radio and television of Iran during the Shah was the exclusive TV and radio station that owned by the government like right now.

Right now, IRIB, Islamic Republic broadcast of Iran, this is an exclusive state run, national radio and television of Iran. So nobody is permitted to have an independent TV station. Yeah. So you're there, and technically you would be, while you're there and you guys are creating IRGC, how much time are you spending with Khomeini?

With Khomeini? With Khomeini during those days in Nuflesh Chateau, 110 days totally, I was with him. Totally I can say in that house about 20 other people working in different jobs. Who were some of the higher ups in the room that later on became leaders? Who were some of the people in the room with you and Khomeini? First of all, Dr. Yazdi, Ibrahim Yazdi.

Ibrahim Yazdi was a pharmacologist, a professor of Baylor University, and one of the founders of LMI, Liberation Movement of Iran Abroad, the political party of Bazargan, it was founded in the 1960s. But out of Iran, there were three prominent figures for LMI, Yazdi, Sadegh Ghodzadeh, and Mustafa Chamran.

Mustafa Chamran was in Lebanon on those days. He founded Harekat al-Mahroomin with Musa Sadr and Amal Afwaj-e-Mogawmateh Lobnaniyeh, the armed force of Harekat al-Mahroomin. Qudsadeh lived in France and Yazdi lived in Houston Texas actually that was I was a member of LMI besides to Muslim Student Association with Abraham Yazdi yeah got it LMI was a secret organization because in Iran it was illegal and we had about totally in in the US and in Europe, maybe 20 members at most.

And when Yazdi, actually that was Ibrahim Yazdi who brought Khomeini to Paris from Najaf. When Saddam Hussein forced him that you should leave Iraq, you can't stay here and invite the people against Shah because Saddam actually signed a peace agreement with Shah in 1975. And so you should leave. And that was Yazdi who joined him and helped him to come to Paris, a free country, France. And when they reached over there, he called me. I was studying in Chicago, Illinois, and told me that Mohsen, we have brought the Ayatollah here and we need you.

I remember it was four o'clock in the afternoon in Chicago. I borrowed $250 from one of the Iranian doctors and bought a ticket, and those days was only $200, and to Chicago. And eight o'clock at night, I was in the plane. And the day after, I was in France. And I joined the team. Yazdi later became the foreign minister of Iran and Qutbzadeh was over there too.

He became foreign minister of Iran as well, but he was executed by the order of Khomeini. This is who? Sadeq Qutbzadeh. Qutzadeh, so he was executed by Khomeini. So who else was in that room with 20 people? Was Ghassam Soleimani a player yet or not yet? No, no, no.

Ghassam Soleimani maybe later during the war between Iran and Iraq. That's when he became a figure. Yeah. Rafsanjani, is he in the room or no? No, Rafsanjani was in Iran. But he was a key figure for Khomeini. He was almost, amongst the clergy, he was almost the closest person to Khomeini. Rafsanjani was the closest person to Khomeini. Yeah. In Iran and later during the revolution and after victory, he was famous amongst Khomeini's friends

that he's the favorite of Khomeini and whatever he says to Khomeini, Khomeini doesn't listen and doesn't say no. Okay, so he was an EF Hutton, he was an influencer in Khomeini's life, Raf Sanjani at that time. Now, at the time, who is Khomeini to you? And now looking back at this age, who is Khomeini to you? And now looking back at this age, who is Khomeini to you?

So first impression, because you were not a person supporting Shah. You were one of the students that was out there doing whatever you could to prevent the Shah from staying that you wanted to get rid of the Shah. You were not a fan of his. And then he leaves. You go to support him.

In your eyes, who was Khomeini then? first of all I was a Muslim and you know in Shi'ism we have source of emulation grand ayatollah that you follow the religious orders from one of the grand ayatollahs. So I followed Khomeini as a source of emulation. Second, everybody believed, including me, that Khomeini is a man of God. He is very pious. He has been with God and you know practiced mysticism and he's a divine person somehow. Third, I can say that while I was with him in Naflesha too, he was very smart, very smart, I have to say. In what way? Like when you say very smart.

When you talk to him, you know, especially with, when you talk about some subjects that are new for somebody, from his questions and understanding and get the idea that you are talking, you find out that how smart is that guy? He was very clever and first of all listened very carefully took his hand looked down and listened very carefully to whatever you wanted to talk to him about and Then he asked very good questions

and absorbed whatever you said. And he was very decisive. He could make decision just in 10 minutes and stand for that. And in personal relationship, he was very kind. On the contrary to his face in the world, that was a grumpy person and looked very tough at everybody, but against the US, against the Shah,

but in personal relationship, he was very kind. To a person like me, 23 years old like youngest student he was talking very mild very very kind or especially to children when some of the people who came to meet him at small children he was very kind to them But later, when we returned to Iran, very seldom I saw him. Once when I was at the head of radio and maybe one more time, if I'm not wrong, when I was in heavy industries of Iran. No, two times more. But gradually I think that he became a monster too, because he ordered killing the people, execution of the political prisoners in 1988.

4,000 political prisoners were executed by his order just in three months. That's a crime. Why did he do that? What was his intentions when he did that? I think that there is a very, very, I have to say horrible statement from him that says that these guys are the members of the organizations

that are against Islam and should be executed. I don't know really that how he made such a decision. There are many it gestures about that maybe his son Ahmad wanted to do that maybe Minister of of Intelligence. By the way, the members of MKO, Mujahideen-e-Khalq, and communist prisoners were massacred in Iran prisons in 1988 and several others. He made big mistakes. You know, this is how despotism works. He became a despot.

This is how despotism works. He became a despot. And I think that I can say three big mistakes while he was at the top for 10 years, then he passed away. First was hostage taking, supporting the students who attacked to American embassy. Instead of kicking them out of the embassy, he supported them for hostage-taking and that was against any international regulation and changed, you know, started a fight with the U.S. that is still going on. And second, the war between Iran and Iraq.

Although Saddam attacked to Iran, but after one year and a half, he succeeded to kick his forces out of Iran and liberate our lands. That was the time that he could go for a peace, ceasefire. But he continued the war six years and half more. And we lost 235,000 more lives

in the second period of the war. At the first period, we lost about 30,000 lives and we liberated our lands. But at the second part, he continued a useless war. And third is that massacre in prisons and suppressing the opposition very brutally. I can say that leftists of Iran, communists and other leftists and other groups

actually were massacred by the hands of Khomeini and the Islamists who took power. By the way, yeah, like IRGC, I can say that this IRGC is not that IRGC that without that we are creating something in the benefit of the people Let me ask you the country when you guys started it and you and you're there at the beginning. Okay It's not hard to see Right off the bat people were getting killed left and right under Khomeini, right military leaders

Many of them that were under the Shah who were loyal to him you know the one guy that you know they cut his arm because he shook hands with uh uh he didn't salute him so they ended up cutting his arm. Do you know who I'm talking about? I'll pull this up and give you the name here in a minute. Bahá'í people who were afraid to be there they were running away left and right. He was killing Bahá'ís left and right, there was fear in that community. Wouldn't you as somebody that's still early on realizing they're killing everybody they can get their hands on that disagrees with them early on to realize this is not a good

regime because you said the first time you realized that it was bad was in 88 when it was the 4,000 political prisoners, but you should have seen glimpses earlier no? Yes I can say that first time that I found out that something is wrong it's not what we wanted you know at the first two years of victory of revolution I was so busy with the country and you know bomb blasting in prime minister office, for instance, by M.K.O. I was working with Rajoy, the prime minister, and he became president. But after two, three years, I went to industries of Iran. I became head of EDRO, Industrial Development and Renovation Organization, the biggest industrial

complex of Iran, owned 140 huge manufacturing companies. In industries of Iran, that was 1982 and 1983, for the first time I found out that, okay, this is not what we wanted. We didn't expect, we didn't know, better to say, we didn't know that a revolution is how wild, how wild is a revolution and brutality in the nature of revolutions, especially an Islamic revolution that thinks that it's the hand of the God, so they can put themselves in the side of God and do whatever they want and do any crime. So in 1983, 1984, I resigned from my position. 84. 84.

And... Resigned from what? Resigned from IRGC? No, no. IRGC, I left it after five months Yeah, and from industries of Iran. I was ahead of it, bro and promised to myself that I Should really study reread

The books of the founders of this revolution to see what we wanted why we were against and Why why it's going in this way. It took about a year that at last I resigned and started to read. The first book that I reread was Khomeini's book about the ruleity of Faghi, about the rulership of the Faghi. And this time I was 30 years old. Now I was, you know, not an emotional young revolutionary, leftist young revolutionary.

You are or you're not? When I was 30 years old you are and I was not I was not you were not no you were when you were younger yeah when I was 22 years old like many youngest students on those days the dominant you know not like in the shot he's the rich guy you know yeah he did the big party you should never done this he he doesn't care about us. The dominant discourse is leftist, revolutionary, ideological aspect of the world,

just by some simple lines you try to draw everything, to refuse for instance all the Western civilization, we will have a, you know, new way in front of the humanity by Islamic regime and blah, blah, blah. But then I was 30 years old. This time, when I started to read the books of the founders of revolution, like Khomeini, like Dr. Shariati, actually the teacher of the revolution, and the others, this time

I found out that, wow, the problem of this revolution is not accidental. It's essential. It's in the theory of this regime. Essential or intentional? No. It's in the theory of this regime. When you are Islamist, when you put yourself in the shoe of the God, then you can do any crime intentionally

you can do any crime and nothing is you don't care about human rights. Human rights is something that comes from the modern world. The modern people, after John Locke and the other thinkers gradually, people instead of duties in religion, now the people have rights. But in that type of thinking, I mean Islamism, revolutionary, ideological version of Shi'ism, there is no room for rights of the people. People should obey the leaders, the religion, the religion that is represented by a person at the top. So this time when I found out that okay, this is something that I don't like.

For this reason I started to, I found out the answer of my question, why it went wrong? Why it started to kill the people why it's so much brutality so when I found out the answer that okay it goes back to the essence of this revolution and the people gradually the brutal people ruthless people will take the power, including Khomeini himself. That kind person, religious man, became a monster.

So I said to myself that, first of all, I should test my, examine my idea. So I started to study history, because history is the laboratory of social sciences theories. Because my major field was mechanical engineering and physics, but I started to study history and I tested that idea and I saw that yes,

it has been repeated in other countries and even in Iran. When we ran the country with religious theories, give and take we had the same results somehow. Or Middle Ages in Europe, when it was the Catholic Church actually running and had power. So, in 1988, when the war between Iran and Iraq was finished, and from 1986, I was not in key positions, just advisor to some of my friends that were in the cabinet. But after 1988, I said to myself that, okay, enough is enough. I don't work with this regime anymore in any way. So I left any position, didn't accept any position, and I went to, started publishing magazines, newspapers,

and starting a publishing company. All of them were shut down, by the way, by the regime after a while. And gradually they were, I became a tough opposition. I was imprisoned four times totally by the regime. In Iran. Yeah, in Iran.

And one time you were even imprisoned without being there, right? There's a name for it for six years. I don't know what the name of that is. When you're absentia, absentia. But the time that you were arrested there, did they not prevent you from eating for 70 days where you lost 50 pounds? No, I went on a hunger strike.

While you were in prison? Yeah. Last time that I was arrested, they come to your apartment, suddenly disconnect the telephones and keep you over there and show you just a piece of paper, you are under arrest. And in that piece of paper, I saw that they have the order to arrest my son. He was a.

Vaheed or. Vaheed, yeah, University of Tehran student. He was studying economics. My second son was in England. So if he was in Iran, I think that he was arrested too. But this time they searched the house for four hours everywhere, take every paper, Even that electricity bills. I said that I told the guys that why do you take the electricity bills? What's inside that?

by the way From that time. I said that okay as a protest For arresting me. Yeah, I go on hunger strike. Why were you trying to, were you trying to kill yourself so that could be a statement to the world on how much you're standing up against them? Yeah, I wanted to, honestly I didn't want to be to be killed or to die, but I wanted to resist in front of them and have something in interrogation to bargain

because I was almost famous and many students knew me. They arrested 800 students including my son with me at the same time. Because they were tied to you. Yeah. 800 students. 800 students. How long did they stay in jail?

Some of them one month like my son, some of them three months, 100 days, or some of them longer, six months. While they had you and you're not eating, are they abusing you? Are they trying to embarrass you? Are they doing any public humiliation ritual? Are they doing anything to you? No, no, because they knew this time, and if they arrest me right now,

definitely they will not be polite. They torture. Now, if they arrest you. If they can catch me, definitely they will kill me. But in those days, because that, anyway, I was a person that came to Iran with Khomeini, and I was one of the founders of IRGC. I was deputy prime minister for a while

at the first decade of revolution, and many of the top people in the Islamic Republic knew me. Many of the members of the parliament and many people in the society. So they knew that at last they should release me after 10 years, say, but so they didn't torture me. But some, I can't say psychological pressure, yes. For instance, one day they said that your son is in the room. Because you are blindfolded when they take you to interrogation and sit you in front of the wall and you can't see the room. But they said that your son is here and he has become very slim. We may release

him and they wanted to show to my son that I'm not on hunger strike. Because I told to my wife, my wife is a doctor, when they arrested me, I told her that from now on, I go on hunger strike and announce it to the world that I'm on hunger strike and day by day count it. So they wanted to anyway, you know, say that this is I have broken my hunger strike. So when they said that your son is in the room, I talked to myself that, okay, if I said that I'm on hunger strike they may not release him because they want to send him out to say that my dad is not on hunger strike and if I say

send anything and I say no I'm not on hunger strike day I have given a false fact to him anyway I just kept silent or one day they told me that we have arrested your wife as well while you're in there they're saying this to you you know they wanted to I had six accusations according to what they put pressure on me. They wanted to tell me that, okay, you have been an agent of the United States. You have been, because that some of the top senators in the US have supported you after arrest,

you are an agent of the United States. Second, they wanted to tell me that, okay, one day one of those two interrogators told me that Dr. Sassellar, we know that you are a good entrepreneur and you can make hundreds of factories. Why don't you go for that? We can support you if You agree not to oppose the regime and go out of politics. I

Said no, thank you. I Just at the Evan prison when you run can you pull up Evan prison? Can you to the audience explain what Evan prison is like Evan Evan prison, if you just pull it up and I'll just read it. So zoom in a little bit. Prison located in Evan neighborhood of Tehran, Iran. The prison has been primary site for the housing of Iranian political prisoners since 72 before and after the Iranian Revolution and a purpose-built wing named Evan University due to the high number of students and intellectuals detained there. Evin Prison has been accused of committing serious human rights abuses against its political

dissidents and critics of the government. That's what this was built for. Evin Prison actually was built in the 60s by the regime of Shah. And before that it was a garrison, if I'm not wrong. It was converted to a prison during the Shah It's the most notorious prison in Iran

And this is what the Savak used. Yeah, right. Yeah So the three thousand political prisoners that Jimmy Carter was talking about with the Shah was at this prison Evan prison mostly political prisoners that Jimmy Carter was talking about with the Shah was at this prison, Evan Prison? Mostly. Mostly were here. When he was talking about human rights, you have to let those political prisoners go. It was people like you.

And the Shah was holding a lot of people from the today and the Communist Party because his fear was the fact. And Muslims as well. And Muslims as well. Some calyri, some. Which some of them ended up being extremists later on, to be fair with the Shah, right, that what happened.

So some of the people up being extremists later on, to be fair with the Shah, right? That what happened. So some of the people he held was actually, he could have prevented, it was actually a good move to hold some of them, that later on they ended up causing some havoc around the world. Some of them were members of guerrilla groups, yes. Definitely, I think that on those days, they were heroes of guerrilla groups, yes. Definitely, I think that in,

on those days they were heroes of guerrilla wars, but today they are called terrorists. Maybe he was right, but not torturing them, because he was torturing the political prisoners as well, by Savak, but no. He stopped doing it, he said in the one interview with Wallace. But some of them were not, were not, you know, fighting with Shah with arms.

Some of them were writers. Some of them were just opposition, like Bazaar Khan for instance. Or some of those clerics that were in prison, were just only against the Shah. This is what I said to Islamic Republic as well, that I have nothing but my interviews and my voice and writing the articles.

Why should I be arrested? Okay, I'm in opposition of this regime. I'm against velayat-e faqih, I'm against the leader, but I don't do anything violently, and my weapon is teaching the students, talking about the constitution of Islamic revolution that is wrong, it should be changed. Why should I be arrested?

So- It's a pretty heavy statement though, to try to change the constitution. And you're teaching that. You're a menace to society. You're a menace to the regime. But the part I wanna go back to is, when you're in, you're seeing it.

And you're saying you were at one point deputy minister, right? That was your job. And you said, for how many years, how long did you have that job as a? Totally in different positions in Islamic Republic, in one decade, I was in different positions like head of radio or deputy prime minister

or deputy minister of heavy industries, head of IDRO or vice Minister of Planning and Budget. Who are you reporting to? Who are you reporting to? To my boss, for instance, when I was Deputy Prime Minister, I worked with Rajoy, the Prime Minister. Rajoy got assassinated by, with the bomb in his room by, that's an interesting story because what's his name who assassinated him with the bomb that he put in his room by, that's an interesting story because what's his name who assassinated

him with the bomb that he put in the room? Masood Kashmiri. Masood Kashmiri and I have a impression of what happened there but so he was your boss and Masood Kashmiri who is a friend of yours at the time I believe based on what reporting I've read about. He was working in our office first, the office of political deputy, but then he was transferred to another office in prime minister office he was he was with the intelligence deputy of Rajahe office this is Masood Kashmiri yeah right and he assassinated

President Rajahe yeah and Prime Minister Bahonar right again, what is your impression of what happened? Did you have knowledge of this taking place, this assassination attempt? No, definitely no. I remember that I was in my office at the fourth floor. I heard a bomb blasting, a big noise. And I was talking on phone. I hanged up and I went to the opposite office

that had a window to the garden, and I saw that wow, fire is coming and the smoke is coming out of the room that I knew was the high national council of security council of the country, that president and prime minister and minister of- I actually found a clip from Associated Press, Rob. If you wanna pull it up, there's a clip I just sent you.

But please continue. Yeah. So you're on the fourth floor, you're on the phone, you hear the explosion, you go in, cannot believe what's going on, I'm gonna give you a visual so the audience can also see what it looks like. Please continue. Yeah, and I Knew that the Rajoy and Bahon are because that you became president after the first president of Islamic Republic That left Iran the Bani sad Rajoy was elected as the president

It was only one one. This is, right? This is the yeah. Yeah, exactly. This is how far are you away from that room when the bombing happened? Yeah, I knew that these guys are are in that room. So I used the stairs coming down to the first floor that that room was to approach the room maybe I can rescue You're in the same building on fourth floor Yeah, yeah While this explosion while the bomb is dropped by a colleague of yours Yeah

And I when I entered the first floor there was everything because the electricity was disconnected it was dark and lots of smoke I tried to reach the room at the end of the hall but I couldn't breathe. Later I found out that I could sit down because the smoke goes up. Anyway I didn't reach that room and I came out and went to the level to the streets maybe I can approach the room from the window from the street but again it was not doable and you know the

fire department reached over there by the way Rajoy and Bahon Arbor killed and Some other people, I remember that the head of the police was killed as well because he was in elevator, unsuficated. Anyway, yeah. I called a few people because from my end, I've interviewed and spoken to a lot of people from the Iranian side and I wrote a fiction book called The Academy. And in the story The Academy, a lot of the Iranian revolution is depicted in the book. It's a story about a secret society that recruits young kids and develops them into leaders. Anyways, this is a part of my life that I lived in Iran.

So some of it is in there from a kid that's Assyrian and Armenian. But when I call these different people, people who were there at the time, people who send me clips and articles quoted by you, they said when this happened, you claimed that your friend who got killed, who killed the president and the prime minister, we're talking Kashmiri, Masoud who killed, Rajeev and Bahonar, you came out and said he's dead. And there's even some articles that said you put ashes to say he's dead, he's no longer there. And that was falsifying your friend's death, that he died.

And then later on they find that he was alive and you had to go to prison for it. Is that all true? Yeah, not that time. The explosion happened at 3.20 in the afternoon. I remember because the clock stopped, electrical clocks everywhere. But the day after, and that time until late at night,

that night, nobody knew that how many people were in that room, how many were alive, how many were wounded, and how many were killed. It took about eight hours, nine hours, that at last the least of the people attending that meeting, how many people were seen alive, how many were in hospital, and at the end of the night said that,

okay, we have three absents and two bodies that are not recognized because they have been burned. These three people were Rajayi, Bahonar, the president prime minister and Kashmiri who was actually the secretary of those meetings. The day after when the people gathered in front of the Parliament of Iran at the end of the alley that the Prime Minister office was at the beginning of that alley, at the end of that alley was the Parliament of Iran, and on the other side of the parliament was Sepah Street that people gathering, thousands of people mourning their bodies. We thought, I have said that we were foolish, we thought that okay, Kashmiri, nobody doubted about him.

He was not a suspect person for us on that time. Because he was one of the honest people working in that office and very good staff. Everybody thought that, okay, these three people are killed. And that night at last with the dentist and their family, they recognized that these two bodies are for Rajoy and Bahonar. But the third person, we didn't find anything. So we thought that he has been killed.

But you didn't know. No, we thought that he has been burned so badly that he didn't find anything. So we asked some of the clergy in, when I say we, I mean not only me, a group of workers in a prime minister office, that without that, okay, we can collect the ashes and a part of his body will be over there,

so it can be his body and be mourned by the people and transferring for a funeral and transferring to cemetery. That was the day after, at night, when I went to a group of our friends. We had gathering together once a week. I was very sad. And when I talked about bomb blasting yesterday and what happened, how Kashmiri was burnt,

nothing was earned. I remember one of my friends in that meeting said that Mohsen, what are you talking about? Didn't he have any belt, ring, some metal things? I said yes. He said that okay, why didn't you find them? And besides, he was a biologist, said that a person, say 140 pounds,

if he's burnt, even in very, very high temperature, at least 30 pounds will remain, especially the bones. least 15, 30 pounds will remain, especially the bones. So it's not possible that you didn't find anything. I said that, yes, you are right. He laughed and said that maybe he was the guy that put the bomb and fled the room. So the day after, I remember that when I went to Prime Minister office and the committee in that division of intelligence division of the office started to investigating the bomb blasting. I went early in the morning that was 7 o'clock in the morning I knocked the door that they were talking and investigating. One of them came out and I told him that

it seems that we were wrong, Kashmiri can be the guy. He said, oh, don't say anything because we have reached the same result and same idea because we didn't find his car around in any street. And his family is not at his home. I get that, but why are you so swift to say he's also dead, here's his ashes?

You're a pretty smart man. So what this makes me think about, because I pulled up to kind of see, because what I want to know is who benefited from this. That's what everybody wants to know. So who from it. How many benefited from it? Okay? How many a long term benefited from it right? IRGC benefited from it right there's quite a few people that benefited from it So if you're on the inside and this happened in 81

You're 24 25 years old at the time, you're still supporter of what they're doing, you haven't yet flipped and turned out. It almost gives me the vibes of the Italian mob when somebody is taking out the boss to get a promotion and get a job because it's gonna be a lot of favors and everybody keeps your mouth shut and don't say anything and let's just say yeah he was also killed he's no longer here. sounds a little fishy to the average person listening to this it makes it seem like maybe you knew and maybe you were being a loyalist and maybe you wanted to defend to not say anything and then you

went away and you got arrested mmm you know, in Farsi, we say that the the Ma'amato Halyasht Aslan Shabad, when a problem is solved, then you think it's easy. On that day, the day after explosion, and nobody first of all was suspicious to Kashmir later was found out that oh he was a secret member of mko what you're doing a help that you know, the emotions. You're saying MKO, this is the People's Mojahedin of Iran, MEK, a militant opposition group,

which they claim that were the beneficiaries of this taking place. Yeah, they were fighting with the regime. But you're friends with this guy, right? You've spent time with this guy. Is that fair? Have you spent a hundred plus hours with him? For two months I was boss of this guy. He worked for one of the offices that was under my part.

So one of the guys that reported to you killed your boss. Yeah. Do you know what this sounds like? This is the reason that, you know, because there was, you know, internal competition in a, powerless, better to say, power struggle inside the new board. Were you very ambitious at the time?

No. No, I prefer to leave every job to go to, start a political party and publishing papers. But I went to industries that was one of the reasons that I decided not to be in political positions. Well let's stay here so I want to finalize the story and move on from this so they some reporters told me that there was actually a funeral for the guy yeah and they actually thought he was dead so this is like Kaiser Soze type of a situation that the guy does not only us

We thought that he's killed and that ashes from the room is Contains a part of that but millions of people who you know To mourn those two bodies and that we're doing that time while his funerals being held Have you spoken to him? Have you met with them? Have you talked to him at all? Late before that no while everybody is thinking he's dead did you and him at all have an interaction or talk no just my colleagues because we were busy to be our colleagues and making we wanted to make sure that funeral is going very well and let me tell you something worse that we without that oh

this poor Kashmiri is not a top person those two guys are very top people so we should pay attention that he will be respected like those two president and prime minister as well and you know these types of scenes are very- Did you ever see him again? Did you ever meet him, see him again at all? No, no, he's, I think, definitely protected by M.Cowell. Nobody has seen him. Since then?

Since then, yeah. And some are saying that he died last year, 2023, or he died two years ago, in 2023. I don't think so. You think he's still alive? Yeah. But you haven't spoken to him no nobody I think that the if regime of Iran finds him definitely will kill him you know because two years ago I think that you are pointing to another person his name was Kola. Kolahi was the person who was in charge of, a member of MEK or MKO. He was the person who carried a bomb and bomb blasting in the

headquarters of Islamic Republic political party. Behishti, head of judiciary power and 72 people were killed. Some ministers, some members of cabinet, some top officials were killed in that bomb-blasting. Kolahi was not found until two years ago. I'm not sure yet that a person was famous as no-name person with another name was assassinated in the Netherlands. And I read that everybody said that yes, he was Qulahi that at last regime of Iran found him and killed him in the Netherlands. And I think that if the regime of Iran finds Masoud Keshmeri, any place in the world, maybe How does this guy stay alive for 44 years? I mean, it's not hard.

You have to eat something. You have to live somewhere. No, maybe, you know, they have changed his name and surgery and all that stuff. Under protection and... Beheshti, what was Beishti's connection to KGB? Oh, no, I don't think so. Okay. He had any relation to KGB.

Behishti was one of the top clergy and educated not only in seminary schools but in Germany as well. When you're with Khomeini at the beginning stages of IRGC, from the moment you're helping found IRGC, how many people were you in rooms or talks where you know they're being killed left and right? What was the first instance where you're like,

oh my God, we're killing a lot of people right now? It should have been pretty quickly, no? IRGC at the beginning was a very small organization. For instance, totally eyebrowed about 60 people. Most of them were well educated, not only in University of Aria, Sharif University today, but from my friends from that university, but some of the members of the MSA, Muslim Student Association from Europe and the United States. And at the beginning IRGC was a very weak organization

that was not able to keep his headquarter. Totally I can say maybe 100, 120 people were working in IRGC. And the idea of IRGC was to keep it small, at most 500 people, professional people, and 50,000 people as the semi-professional and mobilizing, training the people for defending the country, maybe 20 million of the people. That was the idea of that people army.

When I left the Guard, as I say, it was about maybe 120 people. So, was not in, was not powerful enough to fight in different parts of Iran. Many, you know, some people make mistake between IRGC at the beginning with comite in every mosque because after victory of revolution people in every neighborhood in every city they gathered the weapons and made a garrison better to say in every mosque. They called them Komite Imam. And when the name of Pasdar was invented by Sepah Pasdaran, by IRGC,

they called themselves Pasdar as well. They were the guys that actually attacked to the people's houses or get that, you know, capture everything. After a while, after a few years, those committees were dissolved in the police of Iran. They don't exist anymore. Yeah, I guess, and by the way,

for the average person that's watching this, this is now a organization that's got 190,000 soldiers, give or take, army, navy, Hezbollah, they indirectly fund Houthis, they fund Hamas, they fund, who else can I say? Oh, many other things. Right now I can say that IRGC, as I said, is a monster, like a dragon with seven heads.

If I- How many people you think it's directly and indirectly killed? By IRGC or- Directly and indirectly, so directly themselves as well. If you say that, Gotsforce for instance, one of those heads is Gotsforce, a terrorist organization.

If you count the people who have been killed in Syria, for instance, half a million people were killed in Syria. So 500,000 people. That's just one. One. They were killed by regime of Assad and the help of Ghoats Force and IRGC and Russia altogether.

Or maybe in Lebanon or in Israel. The last thing that IRGC was supporting was October 7. You know, what Hamas did in Israel, and the consequences of that. Totally about 50,000 people were killed from both sides. So I mean, yes, this IRGC is, I can't say that a unique organization, why? Because it's like a classic army right now,

Air Force, Navy, and ground force. It's like at the same time a terrorist organization, a branch force outside Iran. It's like a KGB now, IRGC intelligence, that is two times bigger than Minister of Intelligence of Iran. Last time, by the way, I was arrested by IRGC intelligence. At the same time, it's in mafia types of activities, production of CapTagon, which is famous as jihadist pills and heroin and smuggling the drugs from Kabul to Caracas.

And at the same time, IRGC is involved in economy of Iran. They are in several huge projects of Iran in the business of smuggling of the oil of Iran to bypassing the sanctions, and at the same time they are in atomic project of Iran, and this is why I say that this is a monster that maybe, you know, we don't have such an organization in any other country to be like a Western cartel or KGB at the same time, Red Army at the same time,

terrorist organization, Al-Qaeda at the same time, and blah, blah, blah. This is a monster that is working. And the leader of Iran, the present leader of Iran, Khamenei, runs this organization dependent to himself. This is not a unified organization. Every part does and report to Khamenei directly.

I mean, IRGC intelligence is not reporting to the chief commander of IRGC. Anyway, this is something that I have to say that is not only a danger for the world, but is a danger to Iran as well. Because as soon as they feel that they don't benefit anymore they may get the gun and fight with the people or with each other. Nowadays more than ever the brand you wear reflects and represent who you are.

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And by the way, if you order right now, there's going to be a special VT gift inside just for you. So again, go to VTMerch.com, place place your order tell the world that you believe the future looks bright and And by the way, you're the co-founder of it with Khomeini like this is something that started from there to where it's at now and Obviously you said you did not see it getting this big as big as it is today But there's a I got like so many questions. I think two hours is not enough, but let me ask this question from you. So, say looking back when you were a young leftist, you wanna do right, you're thinking noble and money people

or all the greed and all they care about is money and the Shah and all this stuff, how evil he is and mad at that Omri Khan and all this stuff that's going on, right? Do you now regret, and are you at a point where you're able to say, if the revolution didn't happen and the Shah stayed there, the Middle East would not only be more at peace,

but millions of other people would still be alive? Are you comfortable saying that if the Shah stayed and they still ruled, not allowing the revolution happen with Khomeini, it'd be a lot more peaceful place? Yes. You can say that. Yeah, I can say that.

You know, I believe in democracy right now. And Shah was a military dictator, yes, but he was secular and He was like the other dictators in Middle East right now look at Muhammad bin Salman or King Abdullah or the others in that in that region of the world but by the way He was working he believed in modern world, in modernity, in, you know, running the country in the way of joining the modern world.

But this regime, I mean Islamic Republic, is a regime that is against modern world. This is one of the main reasons that now Iran has gone backward and a revolutionary regime is and totalitarian regime I have to say is much more brutal than a simple dictatorship. So yes you're right let me put it on this way I believe in democracy but if you tell me that okay you have only two choices forget about democracy you can't switch democracy but you have only two choices. First, a military dictator like Shah that is toward the modern world, or an Islamic regime like Islamic Republic of Iran

against modern world. Which one do you choose? Definitely I choose the first one. How many people died, directly or indirectly, while the Shah was in charge and he was developing Iran and making them more modernized, making them more industrialized, you know, the relationships he was creating with Israel,

with Saudi, with Iraq, even you said yourself that Saddam Hussein said, hey, you gotta leave my country Khomeini because I have a treaty with the Shah and we have a good treaty here, so we're good. How many people did he kill? Like if you're saying, you know, the Shah and we have a good treaty here so we're good. How many people did he kill? Like if you're saying the Shah did what he did, what were the worst events that took place in the Middle East under, we did not have any war during the Shah.

That's very powerful what you just said. Unless that Shah intervened in Oman, sent the troops to Oman to suppress the communist rebels in Oman. Army of the Shah was fighting over there. But no, Iran was not involved in any war during Muhammad Reza Shah. But his father Reza Shah came to power after World War I that Iran was invaded by foreign troops, Russians, Ottomans, British troops,

and in that event, totally about one third of Iranian population lost their lives. About, population of Iran was about 8.5 million on those days, and two million lost their lives before Reza Shah. During the period that we had a failed state in Iran, after Constitution Revolution,

because we had a Constitution Revolution 110 years ago very similar to French Revolution in Iran. People died because of many things disease, Spanish flu, typhoid. That's not what I'm talking about though. That's not what I'm talking about. Anyway, during the Shah totally, those Pahlavi dynasty, let's say father and son, Reza Shah and Muhammad Reza Shah, estimation shows about 3,500 people maybe were killed. Some people tried to find out that how many people were executed, how many people were killed. Some people tried to find out that how many people were executed. How many people were killed.

Think about what you just said. It's very important because we're talking about from 25 to 79, okay, give or take, right? If we look at imperialist state of Iran, the zone of Sotheby's-Stolpansh to 1979, 54 years, 3500, give or take is what you're saying. Right? And then you think about around the Middle East,

what the tensions were like. You know, and you know how they say, you know, Iran is the agent of chaos and all this other stuff, IRGC and what they've done, and some of that is true of what took place. But that wasn't the case under the Shah. So when I have a lot of people here like Reza Aslan, I don't know if you're,

I'm sure you know who Reza Aslan is. If you don't, he used to be with CNN and he did a lot of different things. This fellow right here, who is a very educated guy, wrote a book called Zealot, and he's written a lot of books that have done well. He himself, his family escaped Iran after the Shah and he still can't stand the Shah, right? But he sits there and says, look, it was a better

place under the Shah than it was now. I go through this because I'm curious. I'm born October 1878. So I'm an October 1878 baby. My dad's taking my mother to the hospital, water breaks. Curfew, they hold my dad up. What are you doing? It's 10 o'clock at night. You know you can't be outside. My wife is pregnant, baby is due. Can you take the escort, my mom, to the hospital,

and then I'm born, right? At the height of tensions and chaos. He was born with the revolution. I was born with the revolution. I came out with the revolution energy, right? But the reason why I'm saying this to you, this is an aspect of my life that I'm very very curious about for my own self. Everybody has certain things I want to get answered. I want to get it answered for myself. This is why I like these debates and discussions. But going back to it,

when we're talking about this, everybody benefits from something. Like I want to know who benefited from Khomeini coming back to Iran. So in my mind, I go through different things. I want to ask you before I give you mine. Because you know the accusations of him being a double agent. You know the accusations of France media indirectly started giving him so much time on TV that other people in Iran could watch him and start liking him and the way they build him up and the way they edified him and He's such an amazing man and he's such a gentle this and oh my god

He's so this and he's so caring and what if one day he returns back to Iran and Iranian people are just watching it on French TV all over the world. This is such an incredible thing So who benefited from Khomeini coming back to Iran? Is it France? Is it UK? Is it Russia? Who benefited from Khomeini coming to Iran? if you're talking about foreign countries Definitely Russia benefited not Western countries You know

mmm although Soviet Union on those days, they didn't know the Islamists that were close to get the power. But from November 1978, gradually they found out that, wow, by the hands of the people of Iran, millions of people, and leadership of Islamists, the regime of Shah, who was an ally to West, especially the United States, is going to be overthrown. So they changed their tone and gradually

radio-Moscow-Farsi started to talking against Shah because they had a good relationship with regime of Shah on 60s and based on deterrent policy of Khrushchev and I have to say good foreign policy of regime of Shah that had good relationship with West and East at the same time, they didn't think about overthrowing the Shah. Maybe to the party was in where Eastern Germany wanted, you know, overthrowing Shah, but that was not the policy of the Soviet Union government. But on November 78, gradually they found that, wow, it's something big is happening in Iran. So they changed their tone and I can't say

that right after victory of revolution that they found out that, okay, these guys, the Islamists who took the power, they are against communism and Western West at the same time. We were the generation that we were against communists and Westerns at the same time. You know people on those days shouted death to US and death to Soviet Union at the same time. They found out that okay we should change our policy. They started to approach Iran at the first years of victory of revolution but by the hands of eastern Germany that Iranian had no problem with Germany and after decline of communist regime,

that they were not communist anymore, and the Putin regime, they approached Iran easier and gradually I think that they penetrated everywhere in Iran, and I can say that the strategy of Russia, Iran. And I can say that the strategy of Russia, communist Russia or Putin Russia, during the last 46 years was to keep Iran in a distance from Western countries, European countries and the U.S. so that none of the Western countries can trust Iran, can come to Iran, invest in Iran, and especially in oil and gas industries of Iran,

because Iran is the only country that gas reservoirs of Iran is second in the world after Russia, or maybe some people believe that maybe more than Russia so Iran what should be in a distance from Western allies to To make sure that is at the hands of Russia. So if you ask about who benefited from Iran

Revolution I say that right now Russia has benefited more than any country. Iran let me put it on this way especially during Khomeini the present leader Iran has gradually become a member of the incorporation. I borrowed the word from Anna Pelbaum's last book. She has written a good book. Its name is Autocracy, Inc. She explains that there is an incorporation from dictatorships, autocracy regimes, that all of them are kleptocracies.

The leadership, there are about 36, 37 countries, including at the leadership are China and Russia, and the members are Iran, Venezuela, Cuba, say Belarus, Belarusia, and blah, blah, blah. She explains very well that how they unite each other, how they support each other, and how they have only one theory against the liberal democracy of West, especially the United States, and what they do,

keeping the dictators in power, helping each other and their calyptocracy regimes. Now Iran is in that club. Islamic Republic of Iran is a member of the club of incorporation of calyptocracies or dictatorships with under leadership of Russia and China. with under leadership of Russia and China. And definitely they are benefited from Iran right now.

China, for instance. Iran smuggles oil to China because of the US sanctions, sometimes 50% under price. And they don't give to Iran any hard currency they say oh no this is under sanction US dollar no and Iranians should buy Chinese goods with yuan and even they don't give you their quality qualified goods they they say okay you should take this one instead of that one. And this is how the Chinese actually milk the cow.

You ever read the book Committee of 300? Have you ever read that book? 300? Committee of 300. Committee of 300. No. You ever read that book? In the book Committee of 300,

it talks about that Khomeini was the making of MI6. So the same way CIA helped the Shah get in to replace Mossadegh, they say Khomeini was helped by MI6, this is why BBC would put him up, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Now Now hang tight before you Give you a rebuttal But that's the story you hear about with MI6 and Khomeini. Two

You hear about the US Green Belt theory that I don't know you're familiar with the Green Belt theory because yeah, I've seen What is it? It's Kissinger and what's the guy's name? What's the lady's name? Who was with MSNBC was married to Joe? What's her last name? Brzezinski? Brzezinski Brzezinski so the father and Kissinger They sat there and they were worried about what was going on with Russia and Brezhnev and they said hey, you know if we have the lesser of the two evils We need somebody to go against them because Russia's getting too powerful and we need a pain in the ass in the Middle East, so let's put Khomeini there because we can no longer control the Shah.

The Shah has become so powerful that we may no longer be able to do what we want to do with them, right? So Khomeini is a little bit more of a person that we can control maybe, we won't be able to control the Shah. Your impression of those two stories that we hear about, claims? No, Pat. I call them, you know, conspiracy theory. It's very common amongst Iranians by the way that Kar-Kar-Engili s sauce British conspiracy everywhere do you think the shock came in because of CIA up that coup on 1953 was designed by British MI6

and CIA together so watch this so here's a thing with the leftist Iranians this is what the left is because you said it's here's the thing, with the leftist Iranians, this is what the left is, because you said it's famous with the Iranians, on the leftist Iranians, that maybe they're a little bit more supportive of Nayak and that community, they'll typically say, yeah, the CIA was involved with Mossadegh and preventing him from coming in, but no, when it comes down to getting rid of the Shah and Khomeini coming in, MI6 was not involved.

That's just some of the people that like the Shah say stuff like this. So the liberals wanna believe one of them, but say no, it's a conspiracy on the other side, but God forbid if the others say that the Shah came in and maybe it's what the people wanted. No, no, that was actually CIA. So can't both be true?

Let's, no, can't both of them be true. First of all, first of all. Come on. I tell you why. First of all. Your young leftist is coming out. No, I'm not. But let's put it,

let's follow your simple rule. Who benefited? From what? From 1953, bringing back Shah to Iran that fled Iran. And 1979 Khomeini. I can give you my opinion. Khomeini came to power. The first one, after that,

U.S. had very good relationship with Iran. British, for instance, British embassy in Iran had about 300 staff and they had lots of, for instance, in industries of Iran, we had lots of contracts with Western companies and blah, blah, blah. But in 1979, when Khomeini returned to Iran and Islamic regime

Gradually, I remember that once while I was in Iran. I talked to one of the British Diplomats he said that we have only 27 a staff because we don't have any relationship any commercial 27 staff because we don't have any relationship any commercial relationship with you that's kind of like when but that's kind of like benefits from Islamic Republic Russia right now no I'll give you who benefits from the what American company have any any contracted no it's not about this not about the what else not it's not okay you want me to tell you I'll give you and let me sorry they finish that the other thing are Benefited when we when we talk about the Historical even you should talk about the facts. I'm gonna give you fact and I want you to put back so far from not for

1953 yeah it has been published several documents from foreign ministries, from the intelligence services, including the foreign minister of the United States. Martin Albright once said that, okay, we apologize from the people of Iran for that coup. Top officials, lots of hundreds of documents have been published so far that shows that yes,

British Sixth Head Service and US Sixth Head Service were involved in that coup. But 1979, now it's after 45 years, 46 years, several documents have been published. And several memoirs, including President Carter, including the prime ministers of the British government, and many other documents have been released so far. And there's no document that they supported Khomeini and besides to that what they got

very wisely Shah was a very close friends to US to England to western countries why should they remove him and replace him with the guys that they didn't know them? And after a while they became against them. Why should they do that? Do you remember when you first met Khomeini and you were like, what a gentle, kind, sweet man he was? And then, boom! Killing after killing after killing after killing after killing after killing and then you decide to step away in 1988 and you go to jail they have you in prison at the Evan prison in Tehran and then you realize wow maybe I got spooked maybe I got fooled maybe I

got bamboozled by Khomeini, right? Okay, I wanna go a little bit deeper with this thing on when you said who benefited from 1953 to 1959. What major contract and agreement came about between those 26 years? Can you go to 1954 Oil Consortium Agreement? 1954 Oil Consortium Agreement, agreement okay that was in 1954 do you know how long the contract was I don't know how long it was but 40% the

American companies got from that contract for oil of Iran okay so the 1954 oil and after a while ons, I guess that Shah actually... that was expired and Shah again announced that the oil of Iran is nationalized. Right. So the contract was a 25-year contract. Okay. So the 25-year contract expired in 79 and Iran under the Shah became so powerful that he was becoming more and more assertive about what they were producing. Iran education was improving, women had freedom that they way more than what they

have today. The age of marriage for women came down to nine years old, ten years old under the Shah. I think it was 18 or 16 or 15 years old. Now it goes back down to numbers. He's being asked by Wallace. He says in five years, we're gonna be what you are right now, Britain, because he was seeing the strength that was coming up. And what happens when under the Shah

there's no wars for 25 years? Who doesn't make money if there's no wars? Who doesn't make money if there's no wars? Who doesn't make money? You mean that the Western countries removed their allies, brought a regime that they didn't know what they will do and this regime will go to Russia to power, to make wars in the region? The more war there is. For what?

For what? To sell the equipment you say. So you think Eisenhower was a dummy? No, he was not. So what did Eisenhower say at the end of his book? Let's put it this way, whole the equipment that they have sold to Iran they have sold nothing. No, but Iran bought about $15 billion at the last years of Shah from the United States only.

But to Iran, not Britain, not US, none of them sold anything to Iran or Western countries. But to region, say Saudi Arabia, for instance, 65 billion dollars a year, totally say 500 billion dollars, if I'm not, just an estimation. Is it just for opposing Iran, Islamic Republic of Iran, or Saudi Arabia, because Saudi Arabia is a good ally to the US and Western countries as well. So I'm going to give you...

And compare it. Suppose that's right. Suppose totally the weapon industries of the United States and Western countries benefit from Islamic Republic and the country to sell know, to sell the equipments to other countries. Okay, suppose it happened. Compare it to the other opportunities that they lost. Iran is 90 million population. If Iran was an ally to Western countries, now the huge amount of car manufacturing companies, home appliances, especially the IT information.

You're speaking to the American, too. And many, many other. I agree. Many, many other companies benefited from relationship with Iran. I think that even if without that they think, they thought like that. Of course they think like that. You think they play the game like. I can't say like you, of course. When I don't see any document.

Do you think CIA is capable of creating a coup in Iran to replace Mossadegh and put Shah in? On those days, yes, but not now. Oh stop it. They can't do that. You can't be that naive because if you go back to the 1954 oil consortium agreement Rob, just go to the link to, oh, I just want you to see this here real quick. So this is the agreement. Can you go a little bit lower? Keep going lower. Right there. Terms. The dispute was finalized with the incorporation of a 25-year international oil consortium agreement in 1954. Fifty-three is Mossad, Shah comes in. Twenty-five plus 1954 is 79, dividing the aforementioned 50% ownership to foreign companies as follows,

40% to be divided equally, 8% each, amongst the five major American companies, BP to have 40% share, Royal Dutch to have 14% share, CFP, a French company, to receive 6%, a year later, 1950, a U.S. government government ordered five companies to each transfer one percent of their aid to several smaller companies because these companies have been complaining that they were left out. So this is official. That is taking place. Okay, so there is nothing.

So in 1954-79, in 1954, Iran needs the world. They desperately need the world. In 1979, the world needs Iran. They're starting to realize this guy is creating a lot of momentum. Okay, so now watch. No wars. So then, can you go pull up Eisenhower when he was president? What years was he president? I think it's somewhere around the same time, 53 to 60 or something like that. What terms? Okay, so there you go.

So 53 to 60, 61, he's president. What's his last message? Be careful with the military industrial complex that he's giving the message, hey, you know, you just got to be careful because these guys want a lot of war so they can make a lot of money. Is he naive or maybe he knows some things that you and I don't know because he's on the inside? So then, military industrial complex, you look at the business now, the amount of money that's

being made by having to sell weapons and more war, then for me it goes to let's just say we're playing three dimensional chess game. What happens if you sit there and US is realizing they can't control Russia because they have a relationship with Iran. The US is sitting there and they can't control some of those countries there that they don't need the US, let's just say. Sometimes you're a person that is not asking for help and you want to control them, especially in military types of situations, you have to create chaos for them to call and say,

hey, I need your help. Bingo. Now that you need help, now my terms. This happens in the insurance business when I was working for 20 something years and companies did this. What happened when Middle East became chaotic again? All the neighbors need America and guess what America? We'll come and build a military base, military industrial complex, all these other guys are

making money. I mean to me for us to sit here and just play one dimensional, not two or three, but yet assume that the CIA helped get rid of Mosaddegh to bring Shahin, we're assuming the CIA got weaker than they were in 1953. I don't think you're that naive. You know conspiracy theory is attractive because it's like a story and you don't need to any fact. You don't need to prove it. like a story and you don't need to any fact. You don't need to prove it, just a story you make and you don't have any fact for that.

This is what I say. You just guess that for instance, the US has benefited from the wars, for instance, spent one trillion dollars in Iraq by taxpayers of the United States. Who did that benefit? What did that one trillion go to? To many companies. To who?

Not only the, I understand what you say. Don't be a conspiracy theorist, Jermos, and I don't like it. Please don't do that on my show. Don't say that these businesses made a trillion dollars because of the war. Don't do that, I don't like it. Please don't do that on my show Don't say that these businesses made a trillion dollars because of the war don't do that I don't like that. Is it is it the only the arm? Arm companies are the only companies in the US are they the only companies that have so much influence on the Government of the United States said to do whatever they want.

You said it cost taxpayers a trillion dollars. Do you really think these politicians that are controlled by these big military contractors, do you think they wake up in the morning saying, let me think about the taxpayers? You really think they care about the taxpayers? Do you know how much national debt that we have right now? Do you know the fact that Musk and Trump and all these guys are trying to find a way to get us to be a little bit more efficient? You know who's losing their shit?

The people that benefit from all this expenditure, wasted expenditure. If I give you some of the numbers of how dumb expenditure we've done in the US, our history of spending money on stupid things, we have a long track record of it, but why did that happen? Because some politician signed off on it. Somebody said this was good. Somebody was bought off on the site. Somebody said, I'll support your campaign if you help us create this thing and if you

help us get rid of this guy. For somebody that's been in this space this long and spent time with Khomeini, for you to nothing, this is possible? I don't want to go to the US policy, because talking about the complex of the benefits in Washington and different political parties, different companies. But what I can say only, I can say that the arm dealers, arm companies, are not the only companies that benefit and

they try to intervene in the politics. What's your point? I want to say that when you forget about the power of the other companies in the US, for For instance, oil companies. Iran exported 5.5 million barrels per day at the last years of Shah. And oil companies benefited from that. They lost it. Oh no, but he was threatening to raise prices because it was going to be a new contract. Oh, it was raised already. Oh no, but the agreement was raised already. And they control it. That was not the only, that was not only Shah,

that was OPEC. And he was a person that could make deal on the contrary to these guys that got power. That, you know, the oil income of Iran decreased and for instance, British companies, British petroleum actually benefited from oil of Iran decreased and for instance British companies, British Petroleum actually benefited from oil of Iran. I mean when you are talking about the benefits in politics, our manufacturing companies are not the only companies. You can look at Wall Street 500 and Forbes 500 and the others.

The biggest companies are not the arm manufacturing companies. There are many other companies. On these days, for instance, a person like Elon Musk is the richest person in the world. And they got lots of money from the car manufacturing company or the other branches. So if you're talking about the politics of the United States in Washington, don't forget that there are different benefits from different companies, they have their own lobbies, and several other things that at the end of the day make the politics in Washington. Anyway that's the politics of the United States but I can talk about Iran that Iran

after victory of revolution gradually went to the side of Russia and now is manipulated by that incorporation of kleptocracies. And Iran is unfortunately against Western countries and has no relationship with the pioneers of modern technologies that Iranians need that, we have a, you know, a 90 million population, young generation. So are you for sanctions or you're not for sanctions? Sanctions and the other things. Even on 60s, Iran was not, on 80s, Iranian 60s, that I was in the industry of Iran because of the situation of revolutionary regime, none of the companies, western companies, I was eager to work with western companies.

They didn't come to Iran to invest. For instance, Mercedes, Mercedes Benz was the shareholder of Havar our truck manufacturing company and they were a shareholder of Eden the company in Tabriz that produced the engines diesel engines of the trucks and We begged them we insisted that we want to increase the investment, please come and make more investment.

At last, they said, no. We don't see any future for industries in Iran, and they left Iran. At last. I mean... But that's a byproduct of the average. When you said two and a half million out of four million people living in Tehran came out to march against the Shah supporting of Khomeini. The real figure was about one million, one million and a half. Whatever the number is they were brainwashed, they were brainwashed.

Like when you remember when cinema wrecks happened they said, oh, Savak did it. And then afterwards you realize it was one of Khomeini's people that did it. You haven't read that story? Yeah, I have read it. Can you say that a nation, say 30 million out of 35 million, no, 25 million people out of 35 million people at least

they're brainwashed yes how can it happen what percentage of you got you how many people how can percentage of Americans you think are brainwashed you know I think that this is an insult and to all know of Iran oh not at all let me tell you know look at look at the the Let me tell you. Look at the era. I mean. You asked me a question. Let me give you my argument. Then I want to hear from you.

So you asked me a question. Do I think it's possible to brainwash 25 out of 35 million people? Really? In how many instances do you see when somebody, everybody conspires in America to say, if I was to ask you in 2016, if Trump was tied to Russia collusion, you probably believed it, did you not? You believed it, you can answer that.

You believed he was tied to Russia collusion, yes or no? I have read in some books, but I need more documents. Did you believe it when they first? Did you think he was tired? At least two books about Putin that Trump was in the business of money laundry most and it's a very basic question Do you think Trump at the beginning did you believe he was colluding with Russia? No Mohsen

Mohsen that smile on your face is cracking you may be a good poker player No, I'm not smile is cracking how many people in America believe that he was colluding with Russia. I Don't know stop it Can you can you run a would you say it's only what I have what you say? Can you run a, would you say it's only 1%? Would you say it's 60%? Would you say it's 70%? What percentage of Americans in 2016 believed that President Trump was colluding with Russia? Can you ask it on chat GBT?

If that doesn't come up here, ask it right here first. Let's see what it does. Right there, see if the answer comes up. Because there was a poll nearly half of all Americans believe President Trump worked with Russia to interfere in 2016 the most educated country in the world let's just say all the Harvard and all the Yale and Columbia and USC and UCLA and

Wharton half a million people believed that half of America believed this guy was colluding with Russia what happened a few years later 35 million dollar does here by Hillary Clinton convinced and then nobody talked about it anymore everybody stopped so you don't think conspiracy theories work look at this they just fooled half of American people. So for you, now take it back to then. This would have been 80% if there was no social media. This would have been 90% if there was no social media. If I only have two channels or three channels or four channels to listen to and competition

for media wasn't high, 80% of Americans would have been brainwashed, including me. A lot of us. We would have been like, holy shit, that's probably what happened. Maybe his son didn't meet with him. Maybe that did take place. Maybe this did take place. For you to say that 25 to 35, the power of propaganda is so flippin'—if somebody very powerful in a political party that hates you, if they want to put a campaign

of propaganda against you to destroy your life, your life is destroyed. Your life is destroyed. If they want to convince the world you even whisper and say, accusations of Mosin rape in 1989, boom. Hey, accusations of pedophilia, boom. Accusations of Russia collusion. He's tied. Your reputation is tied to being an agent. When I talk to people, some people say you're still dealing with Mullahs. Some people tell me you're still tied to Nayak. Is that true?

I mean, if they want to do it, they can do it like this. Maybe it is, maybe it's not. All I'm saying to you for us to sit there and assume that Iranian people... Can I answer now? Of course. You asked me a question, I give you my answer. Yeah, yeah. When you're talking about brainwashing, definitely you should have the tools for that, propaganda.

Especially now, we have social media that can create political turbulence that is a new era by the way and mass media in Iran during the Shah the exclusive state-run TV belong to Shah there was no propaganda for the Islamists who wanted to come to power except the mosques and the mullahs that they were, you know, preaching and blah blah. I When you look at a huge event like Islamic Revolution, I believe that revolutions are not produced by one person or a group of people. Revolutions are a big social event that happened. You can go and say, so far it has been written more than 1,000

books in Western countries about Islamic Revolution. You can go and find the roots of the idea of Islamism, get the power by Muslims to 100 to before is you know Constitution Revolution of Iran. From this point of view, Islamic revolution in Iran is a part of a bigger event in the whole region of the Middle East and Islamic countries. Why? Because after the decline of Ottoman Empire for the first time, Islamic nations found out that oh

they are under power of colonialism so they started to and their confrontation with modern world they started to say that okay what can we do what should we do and I think that in mid 50s? a final Muslim in Muslim brother who that was founded in Egypt and the famous book written by say the quote or Kotop they they call him here his famous book ignore 20th century ignorance.

In that book, Sayyid al-Ghut says that, okay, why should we try to reach the Western civilization? We should get rid of that. That's the ignorance. They are brutals, they are criminals. We should go back to genuine Islam that is Islam of the prophet and companions or in Shi'ism, prophet and imams.

Then we will have paradise on the earth and we will become powerful again. And we will not be under control of the Western countries. That idea from 50s spread in all the Islamic countries and so far that idea of Sayyid al-Ghout is still the belief of all the fundamentalists like ISIS, Daesh or Al-Qaeda or Islamic Republic of Iran that if we go back to Islamic Sharia, Islamic Fiqh, the Islam of the Prophet and the first years of Islam, then not only we create paradise on the earth, but we become powerful and we can come from the Western civilization. That's one of the roots of Islamic revolution.

Gradually from 50s and 60s, it became a dominant idea. The second part that gradually came to Iran was go back to 60s for instance, and early 70s, ideological revolutionary ideas, leftist ideas. That was dominant in intellectuality of not only Iran, but even in the US. I was studying in the US in 1975 till 1978. Especially European countries, you were not intellectual if you were not leftists. Ideological leftist ideas became dominant. I can borrow the word from Thomas Cone, paradigm.

The era of some discourses, that was a revolutionary paradigm. Everybody thought that, okay, if we make a revolution, everything will be solved. That was so powerful idea that Muhammad Reza Shah himself calls his reforms as white revolution. If you read his books, he says that I am the true revolutionary, but my revolution is white, but so acceptable the idea of revolution and revolutionary that even Muhammad Azhasha tries to say

that I am the revolutionary. Here's how you can. I mean, these ideas got together, gradually became dominant in intellectuality of the country. Right, right. Amongst the, and a big mistake, I can say, by Shah, that closed all the political parties. In the 70s, he announced only one political party,

his political party, the Rastakhis, that was a Farsi translation of Al Ba'ath in Arabic countries, in Iraq and Syria. And he closed any free political activities but kept the mosques open and gave the way to mullahs. Altogether, I mean these besides to many other things for instance Shah was ill he got cancer nobody knew about that. 73-74. Yeah and even I asked when I was in the US in a meeting in Washington, I think that, I don't know, I don't remember, some of the officials, I asked them, why didn't you know that Shah

had cancer? That was your ally. He said that we didn't know that until 1978. He succeeded to keep it secret. I mean maybe it's a point with that though what's your point I want to say that when you look at a big event like Islamic Revolution right that comes from a whole the society right simple answer to say that people were brainwashed or people were you know that was a conspiracy of the US and intelligence of British MI6. I say that such a big event takes decades to grow

up and has roots in many events of the society and many other things. For instance, let me tell you, Shah improved the middle class of Iraq, definitely. By number and by quality of life. Education, low living, women. Education and income. Right. Especially in seven.

Exponentially, like the numbers of people see it. Especially in 70s, after increase of the oil income. And he made big mistakes to inject the oil income to the economy of the country without, you know, and, you know, declining the value of the money of Iran. Anyway, he created lots of expectations from that middle class. That middle class could be the power base of Shah, should be. But why they were dissatisfied on 1977-78 and turned against him? Why? Because he created lots of expectations for them according to a document that I read from Savak. When I was at head of radio, I found that very

good note that was a small book written by Savak on November 1978 that explained that why people are against Shah. One of the main reasons it says that that was true, that middle class should support Shah, but we have created, regime of Shah, we have created lots of expectations for them that no government can satisfy that anymore. I think that's a fair assessment, meaning over-promise on your deliver on some of the things. I say this example as an example that how different factors, different facts, different roots, ideological, social, economic, altogether, illness of Shah, blah blah economic, all together, illness of Shah, blah, blah, blah, get together, make a revolution.

That's not, Khomeini was one person. I don't believe that that revolution was created by Khomeini. You are underestimating the power of a united front who wants to replace somebody. By the way, the paper you read by Savak, was that a paper written by Nasiri or Parviz Sabeti? Has no author, that was definitely, I think that that was a teamwork.

And was written for the- Some of the Savak members were also not happy with the Shah not being too aggressive with the two day party and not too aggressive with Khomeini. Some of the Savak members were like, we got to take that guy out. Right? You know those stories where, you know, the Shah didn't think Khomeini could have that much momentum and power until he started seeing all the tapes, the millions of tapes being spread in Iran and those tapes getting people to listen to

what Khomeini was saying. They're like, wait a minute, you know, maybe we need this guy over here. The tapes were very effective. The tapes at the time were what social media is today. You know that. Yeah. That my voice is at the beginning of the tapes of Khomeini. You're kidding me. You know, whenever he talked, first of all, at the first days, he talked every night. And he started to say bullshits by the way.

Like what? When every night he was talking about you know when you want to talk every night he did not have so much ideas to talk every night. He was talking about the previous constitution and very boring one. By the way one of the top clergy Morteza Motauttahari, when he came to Nuflesh Chateau, he recommended him that Mr. Ayatollah talk only once a week. And every Sunday, he talked about an hour or less. And when we took Masood Amani, one of my friends over there, was in charge of that tape team, and we took that tape, the mother tape, and my voice was at the beginning of that Sokhan

Rani, Ghahed Azzam Imam Khomeini. On every tape? Every tape, yeah. I said that the speech of the- Are you serious? You're the first voice in every tape that caused the revolution? Yeah, that was not the only cause of the revolution, but that was my voice over there. I said that Sokhandrani, Ghawad-e-Azam, Imam Khomeini, Nafle Shato, then the dates. And then that that one was duplicated one to three. We had a small box

tool and Produced it one to three then sent it to Iran by phone Because one of the engineers in two engineers actually in telecom of Iran opened the international line every night for one hour and through the Mullahs sent it to their friends in Rome and then in Iran it was duplicated and distributed amongst the people. Yeah, on those days the tool was tapes, cassette tapes and radio, Yeah, on those days the tool was tapes, cassette tapes, and radio, shortwave radio. BBC was listened by the people.

You just validated my point. Meaning, to be able to get everybody brainwashed, you guys did it successfully. So you get credit for running one of the best viral campaigns ever. Really? Really? You know what you did? You're laughing. No, I say that I don't like the word of brainwash for a nation. This is what I oppose you. I say that people listen to that and make that decision. When you have majority of people,

people listen to the documents, maybe later, you know, about the President Trump that you say. I'm a historian, so history is nothing but facts. I have not- Not necessarily. Not necessarily. No have not necessarily not necessarily no that that that that not necessarily it's who's writing the history that controls the power there's a quote uh what is this quote there is a very very

powerful quote about what you just said very and but by the way continue i'm gonna find this quote please go for it yeah i mean you're a historian. I know about the philosophy of history, methodology of history. Yes, you can, the historian can choose the facts and make the story of an event. But when you say something, maybe now I say something and have some facts about that. But after a while, at least 35 years later, or 50 years later, because that's a generation in history, 35 years. And 50 years is the time that we historians say that now a historian can go to an event, join the history.

The documents come out, the memoirs come out, you know, many other things that people don't know about that. When they come out and historians go collect them, write it down, then the real event gradually will be appeared like a submarine that comes out of the water. So I mean about the, you mentioned President Trump is close to Russia or have some relationship with Putin, oligarchy, close to Russia or have some relationship with Putin, oligarchy. Maybe. I have read it in two books as I said written by two researchers that on 2003-2004 money laundering was done by President Trump through the housing projects in Atlantic City

or other places. That's just it. You ask me, do you believe? I said, no, why? Because I should wait as a historian. I don't think that right now it's we don't have if there were any documents about that definitely FBI and the other you know agencies could discover that but if you want to judge have good judgment and say that is

it true or not I think that you should wait at least 35 years or 50 years from now to everything will be gradually come out and then the future historians can write about that. I found this. This is what I say about the Islamic Republic as well. Islamic Revolution now 46 years ago, now it is going to join the history. Regime of Shah has joined the history too. And many documents have been published, memoirs ofjani memoirs or Yazdi or the others, and many documents have been published from foreign ministries of these countries, was released and a part of the secret services have been released.

Nobody trusts the secret service. Are you kidding me? We had 51 Secret Service intelligence officers signed off saying there's nothing in the Hunter Biden laptop and we find out what it was to the point that Biden had to pardon his entire family and everybody else. No one. So to me where you're going with this, sometimes people, my experience, people who are such scholars and educators, they are in such a big box that they don't see the three dimension. And that may offend you, I understand. It was intended to offend scholars. I'm not saying it in a way to try to make friends. Sometimes there's a box, okay, that people have. They're living in a box. There's the quote that I was referencing. History

is always written by the winners. The two cultures clash. That's the sentence of Heathlip. The loser is obliterated and a winner writes the history, books, books which glorify their own cause and disparage the conquered foe as Napoleon's once said, what is history, but a fable agreed upon the Da Vinci Code, right? Here's how simple it was for me. Imagine if Kamala Harris wins, okay? Let's just kind of play this along. By the way, Napoleon, maybe he thought about himself

something else, but now after 200 years. Well, because he lost that. More than, even the winners. Winston Churchill is the winner of the war, okay? Now we can judge about Churchill, what he has done. Many documents have been published, his weaknesses, what he lost in World War I, what he won in World War II. I mean, I wanna defend the historians, by the way.

By the way, respect to the historians, it's very important, but all I'm saying is who are historians reading, you know, it's selective. If I just sit there and read Karl Marx and all those guys, okay, am I going to study the historians based on the facts on the leftist book recommendation? Because both the left and the right can give a top 100 book recommendations to give. And I'm going to see it on this side, I'm going to see it on this side. There's some biases there but all I'm saying is if Kamala Harris would have won in 2024, let's just say she wins.

Obama would have been able to come out and say 2016 when Trump won was a fluke, he got lucky. And what he says, nobody's interested in what MAGA is interested in, let's just say. And they would have destroyed his legacy, is what they would have been trying to do. And we would have to sit there and say, no DEIs, that's what we got to do Mohsen. No, no transgender, LGBTQ, that's what we have to teach to our kids, right? No, no, no, guess what? We have to do all this other, no, no, no, no, these guys, and they would have had that show cold on everybody this was about to be a revolutionary

era for us and all I'm saying to you is when you go back and I like what you just said right now you said if after 35 years you're gonna be able to recite history and see what happened you know what we do know between the two from the person that started IRGC yourself, with Khomeini together, an organization that at the time you thought you were helping Khomeini because you thought he was a good guy, took you less than 10 years to realize this guy is not a good guy because you were in your early 20s. You said that yourself.

And you were one of the students that was protesting against the Shah because you wanted to get rid of the Shah. You succeeded. The tapes worked on you. You were in the sounds of those tapes. Tens of millions of people listen to those tapes. Fantastic. Fast forward to 2025. All the shit they said about Mohammed Reza Pahlavi and how noble Khomeini was, now we have data. Now we can see how chaotic it was in the Middle East under Khomeini and his regime and Khomeini and we know how things were under the Shah.

There is plenty of data to be able to say only this many people died when he and his father were there, Reza Khan was a terrible man. He was a dictator in a half and the enemies feared him and he was just such a, fine. I'd much rather have a guy like that on my end if we're somewhat at peace. Oh, Mohammed Raza Palavioli cared about was the money and da da da da da and all the, you know,

his castle and all the stuff that he built. Education improved, middle income improved, maybe he was a little bit too ambitious, maybe you're right, maybe if he had cancer he needed to expedite the process of replacing himself with somebody else, maybe he should have done that, I think that's a very good point you're making. With whom I don't know, his son was a little too young, maybe he was waiting behind closed doors for a few more years, we don't know that, but the reality of it is right now Israel Hamas Middle East Afghanistan it all Iran all of that is with the help of whoever got helped

Khomeini to come back in with IR GC and Iran all that stuff Iran produced chaos in the Middle East that part cannot be disputed, is that fair? Yeah, that's fair. So, let me say first of all, Reza Khan or Reza Shah, in my view, was a genius. Which one, both of them or? Reza Shah, the father. He was a genius, although he was illiterated

and was not educated, but you can see from the history right now that he was a genius. And second, this is what I say about history. Maybe when you are living right now, you have some judgments about Trump, Harris, or in my era Khomeini, Shah, but then it passes 45 years from that that era. And I compare Shah with Khomeini. Let me say my judgment now that many documents have come out. You know, for instance, on those days, opposition claimed that 100,000 political prisoners Shah has.

There are 100,000 political prisoners in Iran. That was false. It was only 3,000, 3,500. 3,000, a few hundred. Right. Now that if I compare Shah with Khomeini, definitely, I already said, first of all, his personality, Shah, was a better guy than Khomeini, first. Second, what he did for Iran, because that he believed in, you know, modernization of Iran was definitely better

than Islamic Republic. As I said, that if you tell me that you have only two choices, a military dictator like Shah, but want to modernize Iran, and a religious regime like Islamic Republic, and a guy like Khomeini or Khomeini, which one do you choose? You have no other option. I say, okay, definitely I choose a military dictator that wants to modernize Iran.

But we found out, now that we go back and look at what happened in Iran, I can say that, if Shah was more Democrat, if Shah, let me say something, quote you, when I was in Iran and I went to different universities, I had lots of lectures and classrooms for students, that was one of the reasons that they arrested me. Once in University of Kerman, I said to students

in auditorium, maybe 1,000 students were over there, I said that if I had my today knowledge at the days of Islamic revolution, which is impossible. But suppose that I had that knowledge and that wisdom. Then in 1977, when Shah started a little changes in his regime, I definitely recommended him that Mr. Shah, now that you are going to remove Hoveyda and want to bring Amu Zagar to power, this is a reform in your regime. Inject some other things in your reform injection.

Open the prisons, let the political prisoners come out, not the terrorists, but the ordinary opposition. Go for a free election, let them run for a free election that he already did it on 1960. And because that he knew that had cancer I said to a student that I was volunteered to write his speech as well to say to the people that okay I'm ill I wanted to do for you the best people of Iran now I'm going I I'm dying. This is my son and the Council of Monarchy. They run the country and so, open the doors a little bit and I said that,

do you know what happened if he did that in 1977? Millions of people came to streets and said that, oh, don't go. We forgive you for whatever we have heard about you. But he, even until November 1978, he still was not, you know, thinking that he can, for instance, talk about Mosaddegh or accept,

until, you know, December or January 1978. I mean, yes, if you are comparing these two regimes, definitely, regime of Shah was more successful and had more benefit for the people of Iran. Why? Because wanted to modernize Iran. What was the big mistake? I think that democratization.

You can't have economic development if you don't have any political development, social and cultural development. No, that's a fair assessment. I think you've made a few very good points. If you knew you had cancer 73, 74 and the only people that know, maybe your wife even didn't know for a while. Maybe you had to kind of have a plan. Maybe he had a plan in his mind that didn't happen fast enough.

Maybe he was waiting for his sons to be ready for it. I don't know, maybe he was afraid of opening it up. Those things, you know, Zahedi's written about it. I'm sure you know who I'm talking about, when the ambassador, a lot of people have written about it. Sure, you know who I'm talking about, when the ambassador, a lot of people have written about it. By the way, last question before we wrap up, what did Khomeini think about Israel? What was Khomeini's opinion on Israel?

He was against Israel. Why? I think that the Islamic Revolution was born anti-Israeli because on those days, again, go back to 70s, because on those days, again, go back to 70s, to be pro-Palestinians, pro-PLO, pro-anti-Israel was something that you were not intellectual or you were not Muslim if you were not anti-Israel. And everybody believed that Israel should be wiped out from the map

even on those days. Khomeini was not the only person. Was it hate like sheer hate? Maybe. It was. Would you put that at the top or would you put the US above that? No, US I think was above that. And then who else would you put in the top three? Top three? Top three. So if Israel is one, US is one, who else would you put in top three? Western Europe.

Western Europe, got it. And Western civilization. Well, I appreciate you for coming out. By the way, if you're Iranian, you know his story. So it's not like you don't know. If you follow, if you finish this podcast till now, there's a very high likelihood you somehow, someway are interested in Iran.

Whether you agree with him or not, he's got a YouTube channel. Rob, if we can put the link below for the audience to go see. What I respect is the fact that you came down and you had the conversation with me and we had a nice little discourse, respectful discourse, and you presented your thoughts. I gave mine and the audience gets to decide and say, Pat, I completely disagree with you. I agree with you. You

know, it is what it is, but I appreciate the banter. Thank you for having me, Pat. That was a very good discussion and hope to see you again. Thank you so much. Appreciate you. Take care everybody. Bye bye bye bye. Nowadays, more than ever, the brand you wear reflects and represents who you are. So for us, if you wear a Future Looks Bright hat or a value-taining gear, you're telling the world I'm optimistic, I'm excited about what's going to be happening. But you're a free thinker. You question things. You like debate. And by the way, last year, 120,000 people got a piece of Future Looks Bright gear with Valuetainment. We have so many new things. The cufflinks are here. New Future Looks Bright. This is my favorite, the green

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