PBD Podcast - Mafia States of America | Episode 1 - "Made Men"

Episode Date: November 7, 2025

Valuetainment brings you an unprecedented, unfiltered conversation between two made men. Sammy "The Bull" Gravano and Michael Francis pull back the curtain on Kosanostra, secrecy, corruption, violence, and the families left behind. This is not a movie. Real people. Real consequences. Listen now.------👍 RATE US ON SPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/3FVOp5guWNV4b0S9pfuVcw🖊️ VT AUTOGRAPH COLLECTION: https://bit.ly/4qO3qGK📕 REGISTER FOR BPW 2025 - FRIDAY, DECEMBER 12TH 2025: https://bit.ly/3IU2YWx🎙️ FOLLOW THE PODCAST ON SPOTIFY: ⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4g57zR2🎙️ FOLLOW THE PODCAST ON ITUNES: ⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4g1bXAh🎙️ FOLLOW THE PODCAST ON ALL PLATFORMS: https://bit.ly/4eXQl6AⓂ️ CONNECT ON MINNECT: ⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4kSVkso Ⓜ️ PBD PODCAST CIRCLES: https://bit.ly/4mAWQAP🥃 BOARDROOM CIGAR LOUNGE: https://bit.ly/4pzLEXj🍋 ZEST IT FORWARD: https://bit.ly/4kJ71lc 📕 PBD'S BOOK "THE ACADEMY": https://bit.ly/41rtEV4👔 BET-DAVID CONSULTING: https://bit.ly/4lzQph2 📺 JOIN THE CHANNEL: ⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4g5C6Or💬 TEXT US: Text “PODCAST” to 310-340-1132 to get the latest updates in real-time! SUBSCRIBE TO: @VALUETAINMENT @ValuetainmentComedy @theunusualsuspectspodcast @HerTakePod @bizdocpodcast ABOUT US:Patrick Bet-David is the founder and CEO of Valuetainment Media. He is the author of the #1 Wall Street Journal Bestseller “Your Next Five Moves” (Simon & Schuster) and a father of 2 boys and 2 girls. He currently resides in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida.

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What you're with brotherhood What you're about to shine and see. What you're about to see This is real. This is not the godfather of Goodfellas. This is not a movie, there is no script. For the first time anywhere, you will see a sit-down between two made men, men who swore the sacred oath.

Not just soldiers in the mob, but real bosses. Sammy the Bugrovano from the Gambino family. And Michael Francis from the Colombo. family. We'll have a sit down and hash out their differences right before your eyes. Value Taming Presents, a once in a lifetime sit down. Sammy, Michael, thank you for agreeing to do this. I didn't think this was going to take place for a long time.

You were upset the first time I even brought it up to you. It was the first time you saw my interview with Michael. We were on the phone for two and a half hours. I said, this probably never going to be taking place. And then, Michael, I never thought you would agree to this interview. But finally, we are making this happen. I know a lot of people have been looking forward to seeing this. The public sees Koso Nostri, they think about Godfather.

They think about maybe soprano, maybe Goodfellas, maybe Bronx Tale, maybe, you know, Donny Brascoe with Lefty. They see the movies. They don't, you know, the movie is what they know about it. What is Kosoenostra to you and does it still have the same meaning today as it did back in the 80s? First of all, it's part of my heritage as an Italian. This came from Sicily. It was created in Sicily in the 12th century, maybe even a little bit before.

It was called clans back then, and they protected the people. That's how it was an ostracistar. It became the mafia instead of clans. It evolved and came into this country and there's a long history and there was hundreds of movies of Al Capone and Lucky Luciano and Vino and Vino Ginoviz and on and on and on. So this has meaning to me.

When I was a kid, I was a fuck-up in schools. I didn't get out of the age right. I didn't have the privilege of growing up and graduating high school like Michael did. Or going to college or wanting to be a doctor. I was a thubbed. I was in a gang. And goes in our shirt is what kept me alive.

Kept you alive. Kept me alive. It meant something to me. And when I got into them guys, those bad guys, our guys, they were idols to me growing up. His stepdad, sunny fringes, he went to prison, and I don't want to talk about your dad, but a little bit I do know. He went to prison on some propped-up bullshit charges. And they gave him, I believe it was 15 years. And let me straighten some out.

I don't know any father but Sonny Francis. It's the only father I know for the time. I get it. Don't know anyone else. Whether he's my real father or not, my mother made a revelation. It's in the back of the book. I don't have to go into it as far as she told the world that he's my father. And I don't want to get into my family issue at that point.

But he's the only father I know and I love. He had tremendous influence on me. with zombie. I don't have the same feeling goes on Austria as you do. My father don't want this life for me, wanting me to go to school, wanting me be a doctor. I always say this. If you would ask me at that point what I wanted to be in my life, I wanted to play center field for the New York Yankees. Mickey Manor was also, I was an athlete. That's what I wanted to do. But at what age? I'm talking about, 16, 17? Yeah, I'm talking about, well, when my dad went away, I was 18 years old. Okay, so at that point?

19 years old. But you came into the mafia in your 20s. So, that's right. And that lasted all that period of time that you didn't want, have nothing to do with it. You have no allegiance, no nothing, you don't even like it. I didn't say I didn't like it to me. I didn't say, I said I had no aspirations to be part of it. No aspirations. Yeah, this is not what you wanted.

You had no aspirations, but you had at 24, you came in and you did a serious thing of burning the sink. That's right. In a secret society, and you were bided on, you were told when you took the oath. From that point out, it was very serious. Well, okay, when you were told, if you asked to kill for the family, would you kill? And you said yes.

I said yes. Because you're alive. Because if you said no, while you're taking this oath, you're not walking out in that room. Absolutely. You can't tell the boss. No, I'm not going to do it. You're not getting out of that room. They will kill you and they say, who's next?

Bring in that. Absolutely. Okay. But at that point, when that snake was burned to my hand, I already proved myself. Otherwise, that wouldn't have happened. How? I proved myself, saying. How? Did you kill someone?

You didn't live a rough life. Did you even have fights? Did you do anything? You ran the game. You were going to college. When I was in school and my fault every day was in a newspaper and I go to school with 90 Irishmen and five Italians and 90 of them are calling my dad a mafia guy and disparaging my family, you better damn believe I fought in school.

I had no choice. All right, so that doesn't give you qualifications to be a mafioso. You have to do certain things. That's right, Sammy. We know that. But you didn't do those things because your father asked for a favor to make you a friend about us. That's not true. That's not true?

No. There was no favors involved. How did you say? No, no, no. You asked me a question. Let me tell you. Two weeks after I see my father, little Joey comes and picks me up, takes me to see Tom the bell at the time who was acting boss for Persico and he told me straight out he said Michael

your father's proposed you for this life is this what you want so he is for a favor no he proposed me Sammy that's that's a that's a favor he's in prison and he tells that I want to propose my son you don't want to call it a favor you could call it whatever you want but everybody has to be proposed of course somebody has to sponsor you when he turns around and says he calls somebody to prison now I don't doubt you I don't doubt that happened yeah I don't doubt you. So but he asks a guy, I want to propose my son. He's proposing. That proposal that guy goes to the administration and says Sonny would like to propose his son. So the administration says, why? Did he kill anybody? No. It's going to medical. He's a nice

kid. Go kid. And why should we make him? Well, because he's in prison. and he probably wants Michael to take care of his affairs and give him a little strength and power. So they do a favor. That's what it's called. I don't see it that way. But I don't know how another way to do it. It's not that they went there and they said Michael killed four guys.

Oh, save me to bull, this little, this motherfucker is killing people, shooting people, breaking people's faces for the mafia. He earned his bones. Okay, let me ask you that. I made his bones. So when Persico, when come, When Junior proposed his son, is that a favor? When Joe Colombo proposed his son, Anthony, was that a favor?

No, they're the boss. They don't need no favor, he's the boss. The boss is the top. He don't need no favors. He don't need nobody. But it's the same situation. No, it's not. Yes, he's a boss.

He turns around, he makes, anybody wants to make it. But the point is, because they were his son, they proposed him. Why else would he propose him? I want to propose my son. I don't know. You don't even know why John God. proposed to his son his kid don't belong in the fucking life he admitted in any way shape or form for power for power the guy of john god will you we'll keep using his name

john goddy wants power he proposes his son to become a made member he's the boss he didn't propose them everybody would have said no you're getting a reason why that that's that's immaterial if persico is proposing his son he must he's not proposing he makes him he don't need a proposal Okay. If he makes his son, okay, he makes his son. Is it a favor to him and to the family or is he? Nobody questions him. He's making his son. Sammy, the difference here, the fact that his father was an underboss, where an underboss cannot propose somebody?

No. The thing is, he's in prison and he asks, he wants to propose his son, and he's asking him for a favor. So the administration turns around and says, okay, tell somebody okay. What did he do? Well, let me think. More than he's his son. Let me finish. So now, my father didn't propose my brother John.

He didn't propose my brother, Conlon. He proposed me. He asked me a question. Can you handle this? I said, yes. So now I sit with Tom DeBella, and Tom says, your father propose you, is this what you want?

I said, this is what my father wants. He said, I didn't ask you that. I said, is this what you want? I said, yes. He says, okay. But wait a minute. He said, when and if we tell you, He said, from this point on, I give you the exact words.

Cozano's she comes before anything. If your mother is sick and dying and you're at her bedside, and we call you to service, you leave your mother and you come and serve us, this is your life from now on. Do you accept that? I said, yes. He said, if you're told to do something, you do it. Do you accept that?

I said, yes. He says, when and if we feel you're worthy, doesn't matter about your father, we'll let you know. That was it. He assigned me to Andrew Russo, who was my captain at that point. And he said, Andrew says to me, you'd be down here every day on Carroll Street, and you do whatever you're told. And he said, wear a suit. And that's how it started for me.

I understand that. I understand. And but the thing came from your father to them. Yes. Now, of course, they have the proposal. And they're going to deal with Sonny. They're going to tell them. Yes.

Or they're going to tell them. No. So now the age is not here. So they're going to bring you whoever took care of you or talked to you. Whoever you said, oh, I don't doubt none of that. And they say, okay, this is what you're going to do from here on out. Because they're going to do him in favor. They're not refusing it.

A boss doesn't need a favor. He's the boss. One thing you said, a boss, if your mother is sick, leave her alone and come in. It goes a little different. This life is above God, country, family. And then they say that. If your kid, your wife, your mother. your father is dying in the fucking hospital.

When we call for you, you come. Now, it's a rule. It sounds horrible. It's not really carried out to that point. They're just expressing how strong goesinoster is in your life. That's what it's going to mean. And when you tell them yes

and you hear all of these things, you're putting goesinoster above everything, including God. Well, they didn't mention God to me. I think they do it. that every thing, another much, all right, maybe you want to leave God out. No, they didn't mention God. Okay, so they didn't mention God.

It's a couple of God to every single wise guy who got made butchew. If they mentioned it, I would have said yes. Okay. I grew up Catholic, but Catholic, Catholicism didn't mean anything to me. At that point, right. Nothing. So I would have said yes, but they didn't say it. But it's a hypothetical, in other words, this is how strule this is.

That's what they're telling. Yes. It's above everything. We tell you to kill your best friend. You're going to kill your best friend. You're killing your brother. Of course you're going to fight for him as a man. But if he did the wrong thing and broke certain rules,

then that's what you do. Michael, question for you. In that moment, when they're asking that from you, are you in the back of your mind saying, if it comes down to me having to kill a friend or family, there's no way I'm going to do it. I'm going to figure out a way to get away from it. Or are you saying, you know, you know what,

if they ask me to do it, I would do it. What are you telling yourself? There's a difference between what we tell the, individuals were negotiating with versus what we're saying internally what were you telling yourself look at that point in time and i'm not going to say i'm proud of it now but i would have done whatever i was told to do i just got it okay and i'm going to take his side you can't is this isn't a business meeting this is not your life is on the line and your family's life by losing your life you fuck up your whole family so you're not going to lose your life because some guy broke the rules you may love the guy but you know knew the rules, you broke the rules. Now, I'm gonna die because of you. And what about my family?

I didn't break any rules. So he would have to. Well, he would just. There's no negotiators. There's no negotiation. So if a hit was made and a job was assigned to you, there is no you negotiating with the boss saying, can somebody else do it?

I don't want to do it. No, here's what could happen. You can bring up a point, because I was gonna, you can tell me, Sandy, please. This guy here. and bring up your case what you feel towards the guy or the reasons why you want to save the guy

and I'll hear it. It may work. It may work. You know, this is devastating to Patrick's entire family. The thing wasn't all that serious. Maybe we can tell them and make a different decision.

All right, Patrick, we're going to give it to you. But you got to tell this kid. It's your kid. Go from it. Your kid. Get him the fuck out in New York. It can't come back here anymore. We won't kill him.

But if he steps foot back in New York, we'll kill him. They can make those agreements. It's not total insanity. But if we tell you, no. No, I was told by John a couple of times. And I made a conversation and saved the guy. Frank B. Chico did him once with Louis Milita. A child with a friend.

We're going to kill him as soon as it comes out. Please, Frankie. His kids sit on my lap. They call me Uncle Sammy. I called him Princess. I'll talk to him. I'll straighten this out. He betrayed us.

Frankie did want to hear him now. Frankie was killed four months after we killed. A couple months after, four months maybe, after we killed Kasselam. And I went to John. And John said, I know what you're trying to do. Frankie. I know he refused it, bro.

What he did was horrible. You really want this? Yeah. Yes. And I'll talk. I read him the right. act because he was just coming out of prison okay I said well it worked but let me just say one more thing they did it again what rules and fucking all

things up and I went back to John again and the answer was said mind your business my brother Jeannie and then I'm gonna take care of it's mind your bitch don't talk to me about it when I both does that to you there's no more talking there's nothing when he gets And I had two occasions during my time where I fought hard to save two people and I lost both times. Both times. So he tried to save him. I tried.

I give him credit for that. That's what he can do that. And I give him credit that he sitting here and say, and I tried and I lost. Were you made man at that time or a couple? Meaning is there more credibility as a couple given the argument or? One of each. Okay. Got it.

And it's not more credit. You could be underbos, I couldn't save him. It depends on what the person did. Makes sense. Got it. And in all honesty, both times they were wrong. They were dead wrong. Your guys were wrong?

Dead wrong. Okay, got it. So even though you try to defend them, they were still wrong and they took them out. Yes. Why did you agree to want to do this sit down? So I didn't want to get them. So I didn't want to get into this thing. But it was about Gozenostra.

I'm a straight-out gangster. Michael, I believe, is a straight-out raceteer. There's two parts of Gozen-Ostra. Those are the two parts that everybody understands. It's not what you see in the movie all the time. There's a lot of background stuff. We're involved. I shouldn't say we're involved.

I'm involved in a lot of good, bad, and ugly things. I don't back away from me. anything I've ever done in my life. I broke a lot of rules. But the one I broke, or Martha, there was a strong reason why I did that. And I felt that that's one of the reasons why I should sit down at this table with Michael.

He had the saint burnt in his hand, just like I did. So he's a friend of ours. It's important that my followers, probably his followers, and the whole world understand the real meaning of a sit down. It's not a matter of who wins and who loses. It's a matter of the public understanding who we are

and what goes on ostrich is. If they get that out, I won't. He won't. But more important than me or him, goes an ostrich wins. I don't have the same feeling that I'm here to prove anything about Kosovo. We were both Kosovo.

We both maybe have a different view of it in some ways, but in other ways I think we feel the same. For me, you know, there's a lot of misinformation out there. A lot of misinformation maybe about you. I know a lot of misinformation about me. And as far as I'm concerned, we're the two real guys that are left in this life publicly that are able to talk about it.

And whatever we say at this table, I know it's going to be the truth. I believe it to be. And I think we're going to straighten out some things. I agree with you there, you know, as far as gangster raceteer, no question, I was more of a racketeer than a gangster. I don't hide from that. But I also know, you know, in the 20-some-odd years I spent on the street

when I was told to do something, I had to do it. You know that. We don't have a choice. So you do what you have to do. You know, I thought it was important when word got out that this might happen, that it really happens. that he didn't want to do it, I didn't want to do it for whatever reason. And I think we'll straighten some things out today.

And we have maybe a different view of that life. I know why I got into it. I heard why you got into it. And I think it's important that, you know, we straighten that out even between us. So that from this point forward, whatever, there's nothing else to say. We'll say everything that we have to say during this time. I made probably just as much money for the family as Michael did. Maybe not as much.

he was a big earner. I sat down with Paul Castellano on a table full of people, gangsters, and Paul Castellar little everybody knew was basically a racketeer. He said at the table one time it's very, very rare

that somebody is both a raceteer and a gangster. He said, we're very fortunate. We have one in our family, maybe even two. everybody was looking at him, starting listening. And he pointed to me, he said, Sammy the ball is both.

I think he would know, and the world already knows, I ran unions, all over the city of New York, I ran 5, 6, 7 construction businesses at the same time. These are facts. So I'm as much of a racketeer as he is. I don't think he's as much of a gangster as I am. Your peak, you were saying you were making how much money per year at your

When we, look, in the gas business, we were bringing it. We were selling a half a billion gallons of gas per month. We were taking down 20, 30, 40 cents a gallon, depending upon the deals we made. We were bringing it $5, $8 million a week. And I was paying up on that. But this was money that I earned. I know there's a lot of baloney around it. All of a sudden, gas pipe, I never even had to sit down on gas pipe in the end.

Never, never. Everybody wants to claim credit for the gas. Let me tell you what happened with the gas. The other guy's doing it. Some of the Russians were involved, and some of the Russians used wrong with it. I happen to have a guy, Larry I originally, you know the story we spoke about it, that came to me with a germ of an idea, and we knew how to grow it into what we grew it in. We did the most in that gas business.

There's no doubt about it, because everybody came. John came to us. John came to us through Vic Arena and tried to get a piece. Everybody was trying to get a piece of the action. But the bottom line is we created that. We had a piece. Whatever. Yeah.

We created it. Yeah. I'm not saying. Tony Pepp and other guys with all the guys. Let me tell my certain side of the story. There was guys in, no doubt about it. But in my family was- I know guys from the Russians started this. They did not start it.

That's not true. Okay. Let me, Sammy, I'm going to say, everybody's telling a story because they think they make it up. The Russians did not. I brought three Russians into the business with me. They couldn't get licensed. Gas stop. This is all a matter of record.

Everything I tell you is a matter of record. Mike Markowitz, Lev Persis, David Bokit. They had a company called Gas Stop. The reason they came to me is because somebody beat them out of $7,000 they couldn't collect. And they came to me through somebody I knew. I brought them into the business because they couldn't get licensed. We expanded big time I have no doubt about it

They were very aggressive I can't think of a captain who came to us Went to John I'm trying to think his name He was a guy in the Genevice family And he asked John

Are you in this cast business He says that he was making so much money He didn't even know way to hide it anymore And he said I have a girlfriend that he wasn't even that crazy about. He said, I just bought her a brand new Mercedes. I was sitting there.

John said, I mean, bought her a brand new Mercedes? He said, John, I don't even know way to put it anymore. So I just bought it, gave it to, like giving a three cents to me. So there was a lot of guys in it. Tony Pepp was in it, and I can't think another guy's down. There was a ton of guys in. And that other guy, I think, I knew some of the Russians. This is the way I got it from the Russians.

from other guys who were in it. Marat Gala Balaglu was another guy in it. There's no doubt. Let's hear what they told me. Maybe you can tell me they were lying, but that's okay. Because I don't give a shit. I wasn't in the gas. But they said that the Russians are the ones that invented it.

What did they do? They came to the United States, and they opened up these companies, gas companies. And they turned around, and they went to the gas companies and bought the gas companies. and bought the gas and paid for it.

So the gas, I'm going to use a hypothetical number. 50 cents a gallon. It becomes a dollar a gallon with the gas, with the tax. So they paid the 50 cents in that gallon and they got it. Gays, it's paid for it.

So they got to go and get stations to pump it into the stations. Now the station, we make them save 10 cents, whatever it is. and they pay the gas and the tax to this company. Gas is already paid. They hold the taxes.

When it comes time a year, a year and change, the tax money is not being paid to the IRS. They start coming around. Where's the tax money? Would you do it? They closed the company and they're gone. They're back in fucking rush. Let me finish it and I give it to you.

And that's the way it went. But here's their problem. Not that they needed your protection or mine or anybody else's. What their problem is, is that they were smart enough to look at the Italians and the mafia. And conclude, with their connections, they have thousands of gas stations. So now we have it out. We only have 10 people we can convince or exaggerating to do it. But now we can go to them, make believe we're scared.

and look for their protection, and we're going to make them make money. But they got to give us stations as well. That's what I heard. So, okay. Totally, and I don't mean no, total nonsense. Okay. First of all, I wasn't in it, but God. You told it incorrectly, but you told it in reverse.

Russians weren't buying gas, none of that. What happened originally, you can go back and see, the tax was being collected at the gas station level. You could have been anybody sitting in his room. owned a gas station, didn't pay the tax. Seven, eight months later, you closed down. Somebody else takes over it. Now, they got to pay the tax.

The government was very slow in collecting. They were antiquated. What happened, we had, Iarizzo had a small company called Vantage Petroleum. That's what he was doing. He had different people he installed in gas stations. And they'd run the company for, they'd run the gas station for a couple of months.

When the government finally came down, they'd disappear. A month later, a new guys takes over. Now the government thinks they get smart. They said, we're not going to collect at the gas station level anymore. We're going to require you to be a licensed wholesale. We had to get licensed. Russians couldn't get licenses.

We were able to get licenses because we had connection. But here's what happened. Then they started collecting at the wholesale level. We had the wholesaler collected the tax. And we were responsible to pay the government. I had 18 different companies that were licensed to collect the tax. Nobody else had that. Because we had a connection to get the license.

We had companies that were using out of Panama. And let me tell you that, let me give IRISA credit. He was brilliant in how he figured out the scheme. I just helped him expand it and do what I have to do to protect him. Was the John doing this? When you're talking about John and you were talking about him doing the gas or whatever, was this before Castellano or after? It was before.

That was before. Yeah. He was doing gas after. Castellano after. And you were gone. Yes. And so was this guy, I could get his name, but I can't think of it, in the Genevice family. And I know other people who were doing it.

I was never in it. When I even thought about doing it, John said, we got Tony Pepp, and I can't think of any other guy's name. They're doing it for us, and everybody that's one is making money. There was even people in Providence who were doing it. There's a problem with all what I've told. I went away because I, Arizo, who created it. a big part of the scheme, became an informant.

And he's the guy that told on everybody. I know. He's the guy that told on everybody. But the bottom line, when I first got involved, and again, this comes to the money and power, I went to Junior. When I realized what I had and I said, Junior, I'm going to show you more money than you ever saw before.

He immediately said, no drugs. We don't deal in drugs. I said, Junior, I hate drugs. You know that. I don't want to get into that. We don't deal with drugs. I said, it's gas. I said, but here's what's going to happen.

I said, I got a guy. He's pretty smart. I believe him. what he's doing. I said, but everybody and their brother's going to want to get into this. I didn't have the Russians at that moment. I said, everybody in their brother's going to want to get into this. When that happens, we're going to get destroyed. I said, because everybody's going to mess it up. I said, you got to protect me. You got to make me win every argument. You can't let anybody get involved. If you do that, I'll show you more money than you ever saw before. He said,

show me. I don't talk. Show me. I was bringing him $2 million a week, and that bought a lot of loyalty. And when John, and the reason I had a problem with Vic Arena, I know we're going to talk about that, is because Vic teamed up with John to come against me to get a piece of the gas business. Both, I don't know. Yeah, he did. This was in 81, 82 around there. And it didn't happen because they were trying to get me to service them. And I said, Jr., if you're going to give these guys credit, then you're responsible to collect. I said, because I'm not going to go through that because gas in the ground is like money. It turned out the next day.

You got cash. You got a couple of million dollars of gas in the ground. That's money. Same thing. Absolutely. So we kept them out. But it wasn't the Russians. We brought the Russians in.

After Paul. Afterwards. And I did time with one of the Russians. I can't speak for what happened afterwards. I know my three Russians were destroyed because I raise or gave all three of them. Now streaming on Paramount Plus. It's the epic return of May.

of Kingstown. Warden? You know who I am. Starring Academy Award nominee, Jeremy Renner. I swear in these walls. Emmy Award winner Edie Falco. You're an ex-con who ran this place for years. And now, now you can't do that.

And Bafto Award winner Lenny James. You're about to have a plague of outsiders descend on your top. Let me tell you this. It's got me consequences. Mayor of Kingstown, new season now streaming on Paramount Plus. They weren't doing that, like you said, like you were doing with the, gas, and I know you made a lot of money, but the Russians did it again on their own in a different way, and they were hooked all over the place.

The FBI blamed me for teaching the government, teaching the Russians how to defraud the government. The FBI blamed you. Yeah, they blamed me. They said, because now from the gas business, they went into the health business, and they're taking money left and right in the health care scams, and it's all the Russians and Armenians, I believe. These Armenians, seriously. It's just, you got to.

No, that's what they told me. They took me out to California. and said, see, all these, how all the Armenians run and they're scamming like crazy. And they said, you taught them how to do it. They said, don't be careful. Don't blame me. But the Armenians, you got to turn. We're going to go through a lot of different topics.

We're going to cover the First Colombo War, second one, third one. We're going to talk about Gotti. There's going to be stories we're going to talk about that have to do with social events. Victor Orenna. There's a lot of things that we're going to go through. I want to kind of go through. some of the issues. The first one is Koso Nostra. You kind of went through your story. Did it have the same meaning for you then as it does today? No. No, look.

The same man I come from a different place and maybe he was more ingrained in it than I was from a kid as far as being involved. But from what I saw, and I want to make this clear, I'm not mad at anybody. I didn't take revenge. on anybody, but I'm honest about it. It's not what it's cracked up to be. I saw guys get killed for the wrong reason. I saw jealousy and envy destroy my father in a lot of ways, destroy my family.

I saw things happen that shouldn't have gotten happen. It's, you know, the honor is there to a degree, but when money and power come into play, it's a lot of times it's not there anymore. I'm honest about it. Now, I'm not condemning anybody else because I was part of it, and I lived that way. I tried to be a little different in that regard. Sam and I were different.

I agree with you. Gangster racketeer. You were both. I know I heard your reputation on the street. I was more a racketeer in that when I had to do something, and look, let's get this out there. You're a made guy in that life. You've got to do something. As many times as you're told to do it, you've got to do it.

Now, I may not be the guy they pointed to all the time because I was a guy bringing in the money, and I was respected for that. And it was substantial money, and that means something. But when I was told to do something, I had to do it, period. And there's times when I didn't like what I was doing at all. I wasn't comfortable with it. If I talk about it now, I'm still very uncomfortable. But number one, I'm not going to let anybody talk about me,

and there's nobody on the street that could say that I was given an order and I didn't do it. And I'm never going to embarrass my father in that regard. So I did what I had to do during that time. And I respect you for that. And I respect you for what you're saying right now. Let me hear more one more thing because you just put the whole mafia on Front Street as far as goes in Austria as far as all of these ugly things.

I agree with you 1,000%. I was involved in a lot of those ugly things. And I know exactly how you feel. There's nobody who understands you more than me, I think, and respect you for what you're saying. But let me add this to them. Cops have ugly things. Politicians have ugly things.

We do fucking wars. No argument. And we bomb countries and kill men, women, and children. So don't, let's not get, the mafia is ugly, and it did ugly things. But so did the rest of the fucking world. But that doesn't make it right. It doesn't make it right, but you can't single out one thing.

It makes it that there are a lot of ugly people in the mafia. There's a lot of ugly cops. And I'll use that term. There's a lot of ugly politicians, governors, mayors, congresspeople, senators. We bomb and fucking destroy countries that are bullshit. I was taught to kill her and I would have killed in Vietnam if I would have shipped there.

I don't know of one fucking Vietnamese person I've ever met who's a bad person and I was taught they were coming here and they're going to rape your mother and sisters and this and that and training me I'm stabbing the bag yeah I'm going to kill them.

I didn't meet no bad people. I never even seen one Vietnamese person in 22 years of my prison stay. Only Vietnamese people I have a fucking saw did my fucking nails, toenails, and what the politest people I ever met. So there's ugliness all around us. It's not just the life.

There's a lot of things in the mafia that turn my stomach. I do videos. I knock some people's brains in and some of the videos because I thought it was extremely ugly. People died. Should have never died. I agree. But you know what? It's very personal to me, Shadmy.

I'll tell you what. I'll tell you what, I love my father more than anything. And I respect the fact that they could have, I don't care what they did to him, he was never going to snitch on anybody, never going to talk, never. I respect his principle, but in the same token, he destroyed our family. He put that, let me finish, he put that life above our family. My mother was 33 years without a husband, 33 years. at the end of her life with my father,

their relationship can only be called ugly. And you took that same oath. Exactly. You just took the same oath. And he put that above your mother and everybody. At that time, at that time. So he did the same thing. He didn't do anything ugly.

Yes, he did. I mean, no, not that I know of you, I know your father too. I knew him as a man's man. He didn't do anything. He lived the life. I know, Sammy, but here's the day. Okay. that life became before my family

and as a result whatever he made guy in touch I understand that family but that doesn't make it right Sammy I don't say it's right no because we take that oath it doesn't mean we're taking the oath for the right thing

okay and for me when you put something like that above your family and your family is destroyed as a result of it that's not a good thing and I've said it's a good thing I just said that you did the same

exact thing exactly 100% I copped to that and I take full responsibility. But I have said this, and here's what we're going to disagree. Cozenostria is an evil life. It's evil. You know why? Because I don't know any family of any member of that life

that hasn't been destroyed. And any lifestyle that does that to a family is a bad life. It's an evil life. I was part of it. So I'm taking responsibility for being part of it. So when I want to beat up on everybody who's got some evil in there. Churches have got some evil in it. Everybody's got some evil in it.

It's not the same. We're taking an oath. We're saying that we're putting that life above God, above family. That's not... Well, I got you to admit the God part, but... No, no, no. Well, I'm using your words. I didn't take that specific...

I didn't take... I didn't take that specific oath at that time, but I would have. Did I put a gun at you to say that? No, I would have. Listen, everybody... cops take it oath you said they want to lock up their mother and father if they're committing a crime yeah so the only thing we ever hurt you if you commit a crime against cause in austrian you break the rules that's not true sammy that you can't you can't say that's true in every case no of course not

listen lord the mail let me get into this fucking nut well he came a serial killer he was a bad yes but he's what apple that's i agree those cops they're not all bad that's cool get a good example A lot of these cops are good people. Who do we call every time we're in trouble? They want to get rid of cops. I'm all for the police. Patrick gets a fucking heart attack right now. He's laying on the floor.

There's no cops. I'm not giving them out to mouth. So wait a minute. Even though I like the guy. So you and I agree. Wait, wait, wait. You and I agree. You and I agree.

Absolutely not. And we were two criminals. And we don't want to defund the police. For my reason, my ex-wife is right now, she's got COP, she's not well. You had a daughter who wasn't well. God forbid. something happening. Your wife seems to be a beautiful person. I'm not talking looks. She's good.

She's good. And she's beautiful. And she's beautiful too. I admit it. I didn't want to say that because maybe you get jealous. Maybe I think I'm flirting with your wife. But I'm not. You know I'm not. But if she gets sick, we're sitting here. She goes 911. That's going to save her. So here's the irony. You got two former criminals that have more sanity than half the people out there that want to defund the police. Yes. Yes. Okay. Coming up on Mafia States of America. I love the life. I still like it. Well, you got to know the life, Sam.

And John, the betrayal, I said the same thing as you fought. Fuck this life and in. Betrayal happens all the time. Is that inevitable? It happens all the time. Greed, envy, jealousy. That's a way of life. My father later on when he started, he was 100 years old, sit on tape.

I killed a lot of guys. Not one or two, but a lot of guys. I don't know how impressive that is. It's not impression. I'm trying to make a... I'm saying that some sort of... I'm trying to make a problem. My son don't know who I killed.

Did you ever kill someone as a made man? You're not the best gangster ever. Who is, Sammy? What did America mean to you? It meant, open your mouth and you were in a dentist office. Oh, what are you going to do? What am I going to do? I'll break your fucking face.

That's what the fuck I do. beautiful for spacious skies for amber waves of grain for purple mountain majesty's above the fruited plain America God shake on thee Oh, we

cry that give we better the sea to shine in sea yeah

Oh, beautiful for He was bruce It's true Eliberated strike Fame Month that's out there

Country loving Mercy more than life