PBD Podcast - Mafia States of America | Episode 2 - "Betrayal and Blood Oaths"

Episode Date: November 8, 2025

In this explosive second episode, Sammy "The Bull" Gravano and Michael Francis go head-to-head on what it really means to be made, the price of betrayal, and the code of silence known as Omerta. Power, respect, and violence collide in the most intense sitdown ever filmed.------👍 RATE US ON SPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/3FVOp5guWNV4b0S9pfuVcw🖊️ VT AUTOGRAPH COLLECTION: https://bit.ly/4qO3qGK📕 REGISTER FOR BPW 2025 - FRIDAY, DECEMBER 12TH 2025: https://bit.ly/3IU2YWx🎙️ FOLLOW THE PODCAST ON SPOTIFY: ⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4g57zR2🎙️ FOLLOW THE PODCAST ON ITUNES: ⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4g1bXAh🎙️ FOLLOW THE PODCAST ON ALL PLATFORMS: https://bit.ly/4eXQl6AⓂ️ CONNECT ON MINNECT: ⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4kSVkso Ⓜ️ PBD PODCAST CIRCLES: https://bit.ly/4mAWQAP🥃 BOARDROOM CIGAR LOUNGE: https://bit.ly/4pzLEXj🍋 ZEST IT FORWARD: https://bit.ly/4kJ71lc 📕 PBD'S BOOK "THE ACADEMY": https://bit.ly/41rtEV4👔 BET-DAVID CONSULTING: https://bit.ly/4lzQph2 📺 JOIN THE CHANNEL: ⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4g5C6Or💬 TEXT US: Text “PODCAST” to 310-340-1132 to get the latest updates in real-time! SUBSCRIBE TO: @VALUETAINMENT @ValuetainmentComedy @theunusualsuspectspodcast @HerTakePod @bizdocpodcast ABOUT US:Patrick Bet-David is the founder and CEO of Valuetainment Media. He is the author of the #1 Wall Street Journal Bestseller “Your Next Five Moves” (Simon & Schuster) and a father of 2 boys and 2 girls. He currently resides in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida.

That's annoying. What? You're a muffler. You don't hear it? Oh, I don't even notice it. I usually drown it out with the radio. How's this? Oh, yeah.

Way better. Save on insurance by switching to Bel Air Direct and use the money to fix your car. Bell Air Direct, insurance simplified. Conditions apply. What is Koso Nostra to you, and does it still have the same meaning today as it did back in the 80s? Gozanoistra is what kept me alive. Let me straighten some out.

I don't know any father but Sonny Francis. I made probably just as much money for the family as Michael did. When that saint was burnt to my hand, I already proved myself. How? Otherwise, that wouldn't happen. How? I proved myself, Shamed. How?

Did you kill someone? You didn't live. A rough rife. Your peak, you were saying you were making how much money per year? We're bringing it $5, $8 million a week. Cops have ugly things. Politicians have ugly things. We do fucking wars.

No argument. And we bomb countries and kill men, women, and children. So don't, let's not get the mafia is ugly. And it did ugly things. But so did the rest of the fucking world. America's sweet. America. The United States is on thee.

Oh, we pride that you need there. The sea to shine in sea. What he cried like it, deepened, from sea to shine and see. What is it about the mafia that people find so fascinating? It's about the power, about the ability to do anything you want, and no one could touch you. But the more powerful they get, sooner or later, someone is going to betray you.

And in the end, it's always a friend who does the deed. You go into the military, they sell you the dream. What's the dream? The dream is women like men in uniform. You're going to walk in the military. mall, women are going to come up to you, you're going to go party, you're going to have a great time, travel, see the world, that's how they sold the dream. In the NBA, when you get into the NBA, you're going to have a big house, the big cars,

the big lifestyle, the nice clothes, the nice watch, the nice this, the dream. You're going to Hollywood, you're going to be a star, your picture is going to be everywhere. What's the Mafia? I don't know. I don't know. The boss on the boss who's going to sit there or out of a ceremony, who would tell you that. But what is the dream? What's the dream?

The dream is power, you've worked for it, the secret society. These were idols to you. When you go back, like I said, the Lucky Luciano's, all of these people, they're part of your heritage, they're part of your life. His father was an idol, not only to him as a son, but to a lot of people. So becoming, made is becoming sunny franchise. Sammy, I got to tell you something. I love my dad, but all he ever talked to me about was making money. That was it.

Well, of course, anybody needs money. Listen, the guy was broke. He was in prison. He was doing tough time. Lawyers were chewing him up. Of course he's going to talk to you about money. What I'm saying, the lifestyle is built on money and power. Just going back, when I took that oath, I thought it was the greatest thing in the world.

I mean, that night I was on a high. I was exhilarated. You know, to me it was everything. Because we felt it was an honorable life. It was a brotherhood. Patrick, nothing's stronger. than a group of guys and a brotherhood having each other's backs. Accepting you.

And that's why he's high as a kind. He's accepted by people. Exactly. Some of them are dirty or ugly, but most of them are not. Yeah. Michael, wherever you go in the world, you'll have somebody to have your back. You don't have to worry about anything. Don't ever worry about your mother, your sister, your wife, your daughter.

Nobody's ever going to violate that. I mean, when you hear those words, it's powerful. The problem is, like anything else, It's not the way it is all the time. It's just not. And look, I'll say this about my dad. My dad and I had a lot of talks privately. A lot of things were done with him that I was upset about.

My dad was deep. If you had to put him, there's nobody better him as far as a stand-up guy in that life. Nobody. But there was things that we said privately, and he said, Mike, this life is bullshit. He would tell you that. Oh, absolutely. He says, that ain't the way they're going to tell you it is. There was times when my dad was a captain and they broke him.

And I bet he would tell you it's not what used to be. Exactly. Okay. So at one point he loved the life and it changed. What? Because he got to know the life. Same thing with me. I love the life.

I still like it. Well, you got to know the life. And John, the betrayal. I said the same thing as your father. fuck this life and him and left because betrayal happens all the time and i'm happy now with patrick and to sit down then i am with the life i trust that betrayal happens all the is that inevitable it happens all the time is it inevitable yes yes betrayal betrayal yes it's inevitable yeah you know why greed envy jealousy that's a way of life not everybody has it but i don't care who you are

going to bunk into it and my suggestion is a main guy when you bunk into somebody who has those qualities greed envy and jealousy get the fuck they're worse than a rapist or right get away from those people don't do business with them don't do nothing get away because they will betray it's stuck in them and guys that you didn't expect to be betrayed betrayed you can those guys change no they're like they're almost like a child boy's that they've been it's in them, they're just part of their life. Carmine Mendoza, when I was getting young, he told me, he told me that, Sammy, I think you're a great kid, you're growing up the right way, you've got a lot of scruples and

those. If this, you live with me, people like this, get away from them. They're the worst things that you could have. And he was, you could trust the killer, you can trust anybody, he's got some honor, he's got some this, he's got some that, but these people, there's no honor. How'd your process it the first time he told you that? Did you believe it or were you like, no, I think people Could change.

Not whole, not hold on. Okay, no, at the first day, you know, but he was an old guy with a lot of wisdom. I took his word as meant something. It was pretty important. And I will tell you this. Joey Brancotta, he's best way now I could talk about it, was with my dad for 44 years. Friends like, had friends like you wouldn't believe, right? I knew him as Uncle Joey from the time I'm born.

He betrayed my dad. He, I don't know if you know, Joe yours. 44 years when my dad went to prison. My cousin, Tudy, another maid guy. He, my, my, my, blood, he betrayed my father. He almost got me killed. Because he brought some BS story about, about my mother having an affair with somebody

that it was the first time that I was able to kill somebody as a result of it. And I said, Dad, what the heck is going on here? Joe Colombo, who I know you, fought for, don't even want to get you out of prison. What's going on? He wouldn't even talk to me about having my father get out of prison. His underboss at the time, the stand-up guy all the way. So I'm witnessing and I still want to be involved in the life to help my dad. But look, you've got to be honest about it. And I see what you're saying. Yet the government is corrupt

one or something. I hate the government more than I hate that life because the government takes you know, to help people, to work on behalf of people, and they're greedy and envious, and they got their own agenda, they don't care about the people. And they go after innocent people. I agree. I agree. I agree.

We don't. I agree. I agree. So, Sammy, earlier you were kind of pushing Michael a little bit on the topic up. Yeah, but did you actually do the work necessary to be a made man? You kept pushing him on it, pushing him on it. Let's just say it never happened. What's wrong if he never did that?

And if he never killed someone? Isn't that an honorable thing if he didn't? The books in the mafia were closed from 1955 to approximately 1st, 1975. Okay. There's a lot of guys who did work, gave beans, did all kinds of things for the mafia. And they waited their turn to become a made member in the mafia. So if he never did anything, he's actually taken somebody's slut.

Somebody who deserved that position. It's not his fault, I'm not saying it's his fault. But that's why I took a little bit of that position, that there's nothing wrong with it. His father was heavy way, and he proposed him. And he has that clout, that right to do that. But I felt when a guy, all his life, we don't just make people. There's a process.

They know who your mother is, your father, as your brother, as your sister is. They examine what you did. How were you in school? When you got arrested, how did you react? What did you do? When you were asked to do something, did you do it?

Do you do it efficiently. Are you honorable? Are you loyal to your friends, they take all of these qualities and it takes years to develop who they're going to make. They don't just make guys that easy. Michael, so maybe I'm going to ask

a pointed question to you that Sammy's been hinting at did you ever kill someone as a made man? Well, Patrick, let me tell you this. I learned a lot of things from my father. And one of the things he taught me early on

that was very helpful to me. He said, Michael, if you and I committed a crime, no matter what it was, he said, one minute after we commit that crime, if you ask me about it, I'm going to say, what do you talk about? I don't know what you're talking about. It taught me that. As a result, I never got caught on a tape. I never, I always knew when to keep my mouth shut. And all due respect to Sammy, he doesn't know what I did or I didn't do. That's number one. Number two, I don't have immunity. are the things that I did in my life. None. I don't have any immunity. If I did or I did not,

I wouldn't be talking about it no matter what. But I will tell you this. When I took that old, I earned it. And throughout my years in that life, when I was told to do something, I did it. And now I'm gonna leave it at that. I don't expect you to say anything that would harm you or put you in prison.

But one time you said that certain people talked about you, said that. So keeping your mouth shut is a good quality. John should have had that quality to keep his mouth shut. He didn't. I don't knock you for that. But I answer you that that's why some of these people may be complaining or saying something about you.

Because maybe they feel you have it. And they're not cops, they're street people, they have vast knowledge of who did what. I don't have those same people knocking me. I told the truth, whatever it is, however the cards fall. And if you did, more power to you. I'm not the guy who's knocking you, and I think you know that. But what I say is that if these people who are supposed to know when it comes to that,

and if they didn't know, then you got to. in under false pretences. You did it. I'm going to give you that. I'm not going to call you a liar. But then they didn't do their homework. Because they put you in before somebody else. That's not an answer to an administration.

But Sammy, you're assuming that it never happened. And what I'm saying... I'm not assuming that... You just said... Wait, wait, wait, right now. You just said they put me in under false pretences. How do you know? As a matter, I'll tell you, no, no, let me tell you something.

If you didn't talk about what you did, I'd never know it. We didn't go around bragging to people before circumstances change in your life. Hey, I did this, I did that, I killed this guy. I never heard that on the street. I always heard you were a tough guy, a stand-up guy, but I never heard about specifically what you did, because I don't think you talked about it. And other people shouldn't have been talking about it then, too. The same way, whatever I did, I'm not.

talking about it and if anybody else is talking about it they shouldn't they i get that i get that and you're right i didn't talk about my crimes with every time dick and harry but a boss an administration i was the underboss a boss an underboss and a kunzir has to know these things according to the goes and austral rules they must know that's why we pass a name around When you get made, your name went to every four, the five families. That's right. Michael Franchise is going to be made. The boss, the underbosser, give it to the cabaregisines.

Cabrerozines give it to some of the crew members who are made. So that anybody who knows anything about you could put in, this is what he did. We don't want him to be made. That's right. Or this is what he is. Sammy was a street guy I know everything he did I don't have no proof

of what he did but I know what he is I know when he got arrested I know how he conducted himself many many times so it's not every time Dick and Harry and I agree with you

if we kill somebody and somebody else was supposed to get rid of the body I don't even ask him is it gone yeah I don't tell I don't ask him

where did you bury it that's why they can't find Jimmy Hoffer and so many people Of course, we're tight-mounted when it comes to that. But there is people who know that he's that. There is people who know who killed them and where they buried him. That's a necessity. And here's how it's in necessity.

That FBI agent, Donny Brascoe. They didn't ask those questions. And what happened? It destroyed half of the Bellano family. People went to prison. because we did not know who the fuck he was where he came from what he did so it makes it a necessity to know

and I agree with everything he says okay good and if you don't say you did anything and you want to keep that secret that's okay with me me even as the underbors but my decision would be no

if you want micro franchise made I don't know anything negative about him. Let's put him on the side until his turn comes. That's if you had no idea what I did or what I didn't do. Right. Right. What I'm saying, that's my job to know. Let me just clarify.

So you're saying that if my name was passed around to all five families, which he was, we know that, and I got made, then they must have made a decision to make me for the right reasons. The decision, in my opinion, and what I heard was because your father, son of Frenchese, who was the underbos, who was wrongly convicted on something, wanted to do him a favor. So you could take care of your father's, businesses, or business transactions, or money, the street, not just an associate, but a main member, which would give you the power that an associate don't have.

So they did that, they did that. Did they do your same for junior son and Colombo's son? Absolutely. And all the sons that I know so that, in your opinion of what you're saying, none of us earned the right to be made, we just were, no, no, we said, who said he got made In 1975.

Correct. The books were closed for 20 years. Correct. I was proposed with guys who were waiting 20, 25 years. That's true. So was I. But I didn't get in 75, Frankie and Chico did, some other guys. I didn't get made, well, let me tell you what happened.

The books were closed until 75. So tons of guys were waiting. They decided the commission to make 10 guys in each family guys in each family, let's see how it goes. So they opened up and they made ten guys in each family. Kept that pretty quiet. I was super close with Franklin and Chico. I didn't know right away he even got made. What happened is it went pretty good. In 1976 they said no problems, it went pretty good. So let's open it again and do it every year. I was made in 1976, not on the first batch, on the second batch.

So 10, 20, 25 people went in before me. I had a pretty heavy record. I was young, I was only 31. Guys were saying, wow, Sammy, how old are you? 31. You were in front of a hell of a lot of guys. I said, well, I don't make that decision. And that's what it is.

You were 24, you said. You said? Yeah, 75. In 75, you were 24 years old. Yes. And you went in on the first bench. I did. So my point was that you went in and took someone spot who was waiting years.

No, that's not true. I'll tell you why. Because for two and a half years prior to that, I was on call every day to do whatever work they asked me to do. As was, let me finish, as was Persico's son, Mike Bumbada, as was Anthony Colomboombada, as was Anthony Colombe. Anthony Colombo and a lot of guys who were sons of guys that were made already. But we had to do what we were told to do. They didn't just go say, hey, because you're a father to come on. What did Anthony Colombo and what they called my person,

son, do? I'm going to answer you the same way. I'm going to tell you what John Ghani's son did. I was at a commission meeting. I don't know about you. I was at a commission meeting. Me and John. Chinjiganti and Benetis.

I think a musho? And gas money. And John, I was across the table like I am, which looked at me and said to Chin, did you hear about my son? Chin looked up and said, I'm sorry to hear that. That goes in Austria coming out of Chin.

Who the fuck is your son? is your son should get me over other people who deserve it. Now you could do what you want later on. He didn't come out with all my words, but that's what I meant. John looked at me and I showed my shoulders as if Chin said what he wanted to say. He had the balls, he was going Osher, he had the brains, the same. This is people and goes in Osher. He told him not a boss, John was the boss, told him not a boss.

Joe Colombo made two of his sons, Anthony, And Joseph, when he was dead, what the fuck happened to Anthony Colombo? You were in the Colombo family, and Joseph Colombo. They were disappeared literally. Why? Because they didn't even fucking belong. They were nothing. Nobody.

You know what? I'm not going to agree or disagree with that. I have my own opinions of the Colombo's. I happen to like them, but I'll leave it at what you said. But there was a lot of guys who were. waiting 20 years I didn't deserve to be in that life as far as I was concerned. But that's been far of your concern, but that wasn't your concern. You're not a boss and under boss or not a boss or not.

I understand a family, but we have an opinion. And my point is this, you mentioned Chin. Junior, Persico, was as tough a guy, as his cousin Oster as anybody in this life ever was. Yeah. As far as I'm concerned. Yeah. He made me. You're not sliding in on the junior.

I didn't say sliding in. But what I'm saying, it's not a favor. That he did a favor to your father? He did. That doesn't mean that he? I have to disagree with you. Now, I want to tell you this. And I didn't want to say this, but I'm going to say it.

I'm getting released from prison in 1994. I just got out of the hall. I'm getting released. I got three months to go. The warden that Lumpap calls me over. He says, Francis, there's a New York Daily News reporter on the phone. He wants to talk to you. So I want to talk to him.

Give me his number. I'll call him back. I call him back. He says, Sally Michoter was one of our guys. He says, has turned in for him, and he's implicated you in five murders. You've been Bambato Larry Carosa, and he mentioned four other guys. He said, I'm writing this story. What are you going to do about it? I said, he's a liar. I don't know what he's talking about.

And that was it. I'm going to tell you this. For three months, I didn't sleep. I didn't sleep. I said, I'm going to walk out of here, and somebody's on this BS charge, because it wasn't true. He's accusing me of five murders. I'm going to have a headache. I didn't sleep. As it turns out, later on, Mershorta got himself in trouble.

They threw him out of the witness protection program. But he implicated me in five murders. He's a liar, as far as I'm concerned. What would I say? Of course he's lying. But my point to Sammy is, I didn't know what you did on the street before you told us what you did, and you didn't know what I did.

I hope you didn't. Because if you did, then something's wrong with cause in our story. We're not supposed to know what each other did when it comes to something like that. That's it. That's what my father told me. That's what I'll stand by. My father was accused of 40 murders by the FBI. Forty murders, they never named one guy that he murdered, except the guy he went to trial for that he was acquitted on.

And my father never talked to me about one of those alleged 40 murders. My father later on when he started, he was a hundred years old, said on tape, I killed a lot of guys, not one or two, but a lot of guys. I don't know how impressive that is. It's not impressive. I'm trying to make a... I'm trying to make a point. I'm trying to make a point.

My son don't know who I killed. But that's my point. I never went home and told my daughter or my son. That's my point. So I don't know what that point is. The point is that until it became public what you did, nobody knew what you did. The same way nobody knows, I hope what I did. And that's it.

And so to the debate. I don't know if nobody knew. Let me ask this. Maybe here's a question for some of us who are not in the world. So on your end, you're saying, your, you're saying his father did him a favor to get him in there because it was his son, right? He's saying he earned the right to be in, right? The one question that this brings up to me is this seems to be a sensitive topic here on both ends.

One, a lot of people waited to get in and they were waiting to get the spot because it was close for 20 years. What is the big deal about being a maimed man? If people are waiting, like if there's a waiting list, I get out of the army, I'm trying to be a firefighter. California had a freeze for firefighters in LA. I couldn't wait for five years. So, but I wanted to be a firefight.

Why do people want to be maimed man? Why is it such a big deal to be a way you've made men and be on the list. I want to answer something too. I think it's very important. That's a good question. Why don't want to answer something too? We're basing the whole reason to get into cause and answer because you killed somebody. No, I'm not.

No, but I'm saying that's the quality. That's the only qualification. There's guys that I, there's guys that I've said that. No, but there's guys that killed somebody that didn't belong in that life to begin with. And it was proven itself out. How many guys maybe did the work on the street didn't belong in that life? But that's not the issue. You got made on the first batch of 24 years old.

And under your words that you've never done anything. No, I never said that. I don't know. What I said is I earned the right to be a part of that life. Is this kind of like somebody coming out of high school and going into the NBA? Is that kind of how you're looking at it where somebody should have gone to college? Absolutely. That's a good way to do it.

Okay. But in this example, just to, in this example. And just so you know, LeBron James came out of high school and went into the NBA and he's one of the greatest players of all. So what I'm saying is if he did come out. But he's got credentials to do that. to do that what he was. He was the greatest fucking basketball player ever. But nobody knew what you did.

I'm talking about your own administration. You're not the greatest basketball player ever. You're not the best gangster ever. Who is, Sammy? Who is? Yeah, who is? Who is? I would say there's a lot of guys

who are really good, goes into Austria guys. My father? Your father? I'll be the first one to say yes. Look what he did. I'm never going to take kudas away. This guy did 50 fucking years on a plan.

He goes in, he comes out, he goes in, he comes out, he never cooperating, never done anything, and he was in on a bad charge. Tough, tough guy. Deserves it. My guy taught him. I think, in my opinion, I loved him. It was a good guy.

There's a lot of guys around the person goes. I bumped with them, good guys. And they all did the same shit you farted did. stood up, went the whole nine yards. That's happened the whole history of Goshenostra. Then it fell apart years later. Valachi started that. And what was done to Volachi was stupid.

And caused these things to happen. There's a lot of stories I know a lot of guys who cooperate, everybody in his mother who cooperated to touch with me in one way or another. And those are the guys, and can I tell you some, those are the guys that are spreading all this garbage around me. I don't even know any one of them. I don't know one of them.

Not one of them was around when I was around. And the same guys that are talking, they're not made guys, number one. Number two, I don't even know who they are. They weren't around it. They weren't part of my crew, out of my family. They're YouTube people now. They want to get, they want to talk.

Well, you know my opinion on that already without you even say anything. You already know that. I got in touch with a lot of those guys and told them shut your fucking mouth. I mean, don't get me wrong. They have a right to say whatever they want. Whether they're saying it based upon anything

No, they don't have the right to say whatever they want. They don't have the right to stand there and lie against people. Well, that's what they're doing. What, they don't have that right. Well, that's what they're doing. I back you any way you want. And you did. Whatever you want to do with them, I'll, I'm wishing.

You did 100%. And I'll do it further. Again, another example. We were talking later about the feelings towards Goshenosa. I cooperate. I'm added to life. Me and you are just starting to get a move. You believe we're still cause an Osher?

Here's how Gozenerstrae I am. God forbid you die tomorrow morning. I don't know your wife. I just met her baby once. If somebody ever heard her, I'm out of the life. They would have a fucking problem with me. Because I feel, every fiber of my body feels it. And Gozena Nostra means that your wife is my sister-in-law, if you're my brother.

Yes. Your children are my nieces and nephews. If I could be in a joint, I see your daughter, God forbid, in a joint when somebody's given that static, I will stick my fucking two cents right in it. That's Kosovo. That's the good part of Kosovo. Well, that's the good part, and that's the part that's still stuck in me. There's a lot of good parts that are stuck in me.

Now, do I want to kill anybody? No. That's behind me. It's ugly. It's fucked up. I agree with you. There's a lot of fucked up things they did, killing different people, and constantly. and Carmine, I was with him.

I did a bunch of fucking videos on him already, kill him fucking women and people and people's kids that wasn't necessary. It happens. We talked about Roy de Mayo. It happens. We get rid of him. That's why he was called the fucking snake.

Now, I was with him. I liked him when I was with him. It was tough. It was everything I liked at that point of my life. I look back at him now. I'm not too happy with him. But there was a lot, a lot of good people in the life and abided by the life. So, Toddler, would tell me, listen, you're a tough guy, Sam, and you're capable of this.

But let me tell you, sir, violence, we could always use violence, it's only as a last resort. That's right. Use your negotiating powers in your fucking head and common sense not to hurt people. That was my approach to that life. Good, good. That was it. It didn't. I'm not knocking you in any way, but all I'm saying is when,

and there's no shame in anything if you were a good man and your father wanted or a boss made people. What's the perfect example? John, with his son. Chin gave him a right answer. We weren't sure. What happened? What is he doing now?

He cooperated and he says he didn't, but you know and I know. He cooperated. On QT, nobody knew about it. And it didn't come out. Sometimes it comes out, sometimes it don't, sometimes they seal it. Mm-hmm. But we have all those notes and stuff.

We know he cooperated. Now, he writes in a men's health journal that he's a crime fighter. Are you a crime fighter? Me? Yeah. Not me either. I don't want to put nobody in prison.

I don't give a fuck who commits crime fighter. That's their business. That's the cop's business. It's not my job, it's not your job. I agree with you a thousand percent. But that's what he said. His father must be doing flips in his grave.

But these things happen. It happened a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It does happen. That's why I want to the point that happens more. And I'm not saying you didn't deserve to get made. I said that I think you got made too early. If you didn't have the history in the background

and it wasn't a long thing because even if you killed the whole fucking five of them. These guys over 20 years killed more than five and they got a history. So I'm just saying that it's the first 10. I'm saying that if you win the second or third match, I probably would never say it. Let me ask you a question. Why do you think they put us in the first batch? We were the first guys to get made. I know, we were told that. Yeah, in 75, the first batch was made one batch. Yeah, but remember, it was two and a half years.

It was two and a half years, why dad proposed me two and a half years, almost three years earlier than that. Okay, three years. Maybe that's part of it. Yeah, I mean, maybe that's part of it. And it wasn't, the way I look at it, it wasn't our decision to close the books,

they did it for a reason. So if these guys before us was so deserving, then they would have made before us. But it was closed for 20 years, so some guys. No, but I'm saying, even when they opened the books, and those guys were the one first. And they said, I don't know, These guys deserve it more.

They should have. Well, again, you can't say that the whole, for 20 years, that nobody deserved it. No, no, no, no, I didn't say that. But what I'm saying is you're basing. It's like Kozanoz was based upon who we killed. That's not just who he killed. It's not just killing. Well, how much work we did?

It's everything he's done, what he's done. In 20 years, it's almost, you get a kid who's 20 years old. Now he deserves to get made. He's 40, eating. get made. So he sat there for 20 years, God knows how many things. I didn't kill every fucking money on his mother. I mean, there was guys that junior sent me, and I think you know this story, and I think you know about it. Somebody was banging somebody, and he said, Sammy, I want you to go and give this guy a beating him, bring his ear back. I said, oh my God, to myself. I didn't say it

to him. I said, okay. But when we left, I talked with Shorty. For real, this guy wants his ear, well, you know, I'm a shooter. I'm not a fucking ghoul. I'm going to take this guy's ear off and all this. But there was guys who did not only killings. I didn't take the guy's ear off. And it's the whole story. I did a video about it.

But they did a lot of things. They went through a lot of things. Some guys went to prison and stood up for 10 years. So they didn't, I'm not just talking about murder. They may have gotten caught. They could have ratted everybody out. They stood in there for 10 years, did their time, came out, plus their murders, plus did other things, I think that guy is pretty

qualified. I was an underbors, as you know. If I was sitting on your thing and your father asked for it, I think he would, to me, I would say something deserves his favor, bro. This guy's a man's man. He's doing his time. I think we owe him that. I wouldn't have personally said the first I would have said the second or third, but if that's what he wants and the kids don't care with him, we don't know that we pass his name around, nothing bad, let's make him. And another thing I'll add to that, you can't just say something as bad. If I propose you to become a friend of ours, and somebody says, well, Michael, wasn't a tough guy in school, I don't give a fuck whether you like him.

I don't give a fuck what you think about how he conducts him. or whatever, how he dresses, whatever. If you ain't got something serious, you're offending me. I'm proposing. Don't you fucking dare say something negative. Because when you get made, again I'll tell these people, whatever you did in the past is dead. I'm not interested in it.

We're not interested in it. You're born that day. And that's what I'm going to take forward. want to take forward. The word Omerta, you know, to the average person nowadays, Drake has a song called America. We see Omerta on different songs. We see Omerita being used in books, you know, people writing about it.

It's got many different meanings, but what did Omerta mean to you? It meant, open your mouth when you were in a dentist office. Don't talk, but the thing is a joke when it's a double-edged source. if me and you have an agreement not to betray one another, not to talk about anything, to hurt one another, in any way, shape, or form, that's a two-way thing. It's not a one-way thing. We have disagreement, handshake. We trust each other. We deal all kinds of things together. We're cool. But tomorrow, you turn on me and do something fucking weird. What's a murder? It's bullshit. You broke it. already. So what do you want me to do? Stay with it? So I'll go to prison for the rest of my life to prove I'm what? Tough? Or how stupid the fuck I am? When you broke it and you want me to go to prison and you're going to stay home or whatever he did he left the life because whatever with the Russians and the whole thing they maybe wanted to kill him at one point. So he's going to be so tough and

So smart, so good to Amurta. It's gonna sit there, like a fucking statue until he blow his fucking head off, take his fucking money. His wife and kids could go see where the fuck they gotta go. Well, that's a brilliant move on his part. Oh, what a wonderful man is. Now, he had the balls to fucking say, here, fuck you, and Amerto,

and whoever, whatever horse you're riding on, and leave. That's a bulging move. That's not a coward's move. I was with a guy, a black guy, fat cat niggles. The guy killed his parole officer. He had a life sentence. Stood up.

I was going to prison. Tough, tough bastard. Good guy, too. His wife is being mistreated. His mother was a drug deal. They're robbing her for money. Somebody's banging his wife. Good support team, right?

Everything's going good. Then they get to him, this Papi Mason in them, his old crew, and tell him, There's a guy who cooperated and he's in a building and there's a squad car outside. There's two police officers. One guy goes and get coffee. When he goes and get coffee, we can shoot this guy as a young guy. And then we could go in and kill the informant.

Fat Katnik who says, absolutely not. Don't do it. No, they do it behind his back. The cop that they killed, his brother is an FBI agent. The guy who didn't want to kill him in the house. Here's the shots. He jumps out to win. he jumps out the window, he's gone. They miss him. Fat Cat Nichol, it's his crew.

They indict him. Again, this now on a capital case killing a police officer, he's facing the debt penalty. And Fat Cat turns around and says, fuck this. And cooperates. As you say, he's a rat. Is that a rat?

I don't know about that. what do you think about america i'll tell you what america is and again i learned it from my dad when you take that oath this is what my father's opinion was michael i don't care who betrayed me i don't care who ratted on me i don't care who how bad the life was i took an oath and i couldn't live with myself if i betrayed that oath i don't care what anybody else did that's it and i'll live this way until i die i'm going to die that way with my boots on. He didn't care who wronged him, who did this, who broke him as captain. I made that oath and I'm not going to betray my oath. That's what on earth is. You

took the blood oath, you agreed to keep your mouth shut, you knew you weren't entering fantasy land. It was a criminal life. We knew what we were getting involved in, and we have to shut him out. That's the speech he gave me. And the reason he gave me that speech, because after I had walked away, we didn't speak for 10 years, who was mad at me, who was going to kill me, my dad went along with the contract, I heard everything from the government. He finally said for me when he realized I wasn't hurting anybody

because everybody was saying I was putting everybody in jail, and I go see him, we were in the kitchen of our house. Why did you do what you did? I said, let me ask you a question, Dad. I said, you're on your third parole violation. We're sitting in this house. I says, you have a daughter that died of an overdose. of drugs. You have a son

that's a junkie. A lot of trouble there. You've got my mother's a basket case and my other daughter's dying. That's your legacy. I said, I don't expect you to take revenge on anybody, but after your third parole violation, why didn't you say I'm done? Pick up your family,

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understand that mentality. I didn't, I didn't get it. So for me, what it meant, it meant what my dad said. No matter what, this is the oath we took and we can't violate the old. I violated my old. I talked about the life. I left the life, so I betrayed my old. And you talked with agents. I talked with agents. That's cooperation, Michael. Yeah. You can't wait, listen, you're bringing this up now. No, no, no. I'm not going to accept that. You don't have to accept it, but the reality of it is, here's my thinking. Nobody has to agree me, and everybody can call me whatever you're thinking is. The reality is that you sat with agents.

That's breaking or mortal? I said I broke it. I betrayed my own. Yeah, and you talked about your crimes and everything else. That's cooperating and that's a rat. Just like everybody else who cooperated. It doesn't have to mean that you took the stand. Once you break that off, you broke it.

But I already agreed to that. Yeah, well, your father had a mentality, and he's not the only one. Okay, but there's hundreds of guys who did that. Let me finish. My thing was, I'll talk to the government, but I'm not going to put anybody in prison. I'm not going to go to that extent. It's not your call. It's not your call.

Sam, I could have taken a stand three or four times. I could have taken this, listen. No, no, no, maybe you could have. This is important. John Riggie. No, no, no. John Riggie, I'll tell you why I went back on parole, why they violated me.

They brought me in to testify against John Riggi. My friend brought me into Newark while I was on parole, picked me up, two agents, brought me in, said, well, putting you on the stand because he and I were partners in a business in New York. And I refused.

I sent back within 10 days I was violated because he was my friend. I couldn't do it. I don't know about that. There's a lot of people. I'm refused, too. Okay, but my point is... That doesn't mean I didn't cooperate.

My point... No, no, no. Let me make the point. With point, then you can have the floor. Yeah, go ahead. My point is, when I got out of the life, it wasn't because I was mad in anybody. Did people do me wrong?

Yes, they did. But I understood that's part of the life. This life is a treacherous life, no matter how you look at it. I've seen backstabbing. I've seen guys get killed for the wrong reason. I seen what happened with my father. You want to know something?

When the government came after me, they had real reason, Patrick. I can't say I was framed. The Giuliani case? It was questionable. I beat the case. Okay, I get it. You know, they're on one side, I'm on the other.

The gasoline case, I was guilty. I was guilty. When I took the plea on the gasoline case, there was no cooperation involved. I got a 10-year prison sentence, $15 million restitution, no cooperation, didn't talk to anybody, nothing. I did that because I beat them five times.

I had leverage over the government. I made my deal because I was already planning to walk away from that. No, no, no, no, no, no, let me finish. No, no, this is important. I was in custody. They're taking me down to Florida where I got indicted again on the whole gasoline case. We agreed that the case was going to go concurrent with my federal sentence, but you've got to plead first in the state because the feds won't go concurrent with the state,

but the state will go concurrent with the government. So I pleaded to the state that gave me nine years. And on the way back, I'm on the plane with 10 agents who took me down here. And I'm teasing them. They're asking me, all right, Michael, now that it's over, When we were watching you here, was this what really happened? They were asking me all of these things. And they said to me, I said to them, you know why I took the plea?

I said, I was tired of beating you. I beat you five times. I said, let me give you one. You got one. You know, one agent looked in me. I'll never forget. I see his eyes right now. And he said to me, Michael, not this time.

You became a superstar. They were lining up to testify against you. You were going down. I never forgot that. And you know what? He was right. He was running. I don't follow what all that meant.

That's a good speech. No, it's not a, it's explaining. It's a thing. When you go in, you said your speech. It wasn't a speech, whatever it is. You went in and you talked with the agents about your crimes when the guy was trying against you

and you cooperate against some Jewish guy. What Jewish guy? You told me yourself. Norby Walters. I don't know who the fuck is. Sammy, I got subpoena to testify in that case, and I went in and I said it got into one day's time. They got into one day's time.

Not one day he didn't do an hour in jail. We're not talking about maybe this Navu Walters. Whoever it was. Well, that's all the watch if we have to go to that. Ralph. You could get the facts. I will. I will.

I got a lot of agents I know, too. It's public record. We could get it. Fuck the public record. But what happens is when you talk and you cooperate with the government. Now they don't use you. You're not going to take the stand. You talked about your crimes.

You talked about other things. And you cut the plea or whatever they do. They gave you this plea. It's a profit. No, you're wrong. You're wrong. I did not, there was no cooperation attached to my plea agreement in 1985. You can investigate high, low, and everywhere in between.

You can look up documents. You can go to the Freedom of Information Act, whatever you want. You can't get those documents. Okay. Well, you got FBI connections. You got FBI connections. There was no. There was no, no, let me finish.

You can't say that and then I'll let me finish. No, no. There was no cooperation. No, but there was, you just made an allegation. You just made an allegation. That's not true. It is an allegation. I'll make it true.

There was no cooperation attached to my plea agreement at all. Maybe it's not cooperation. I don't know what you wrote. You met with the agents and you talked with the agent. I met with the agent five years later. No, you just said you were on a plane with agents and you were joking. I beat you once. They didn't go for that bullshit.

What are you talking about? You said you were talking about agents. I beat you, so now I'm going to give you one. I was talking about my case. I took a plea. I was talking about my case. my case. They were saying, Michael, when we were following you here, was this what really happened?

All I understand is that when you talked with the ages, you talked about your crimes, you talked about other things, now what happens is they didn't use you. They didn't use you. They couldn't use me. Sammy, I've been listening to you and I don't want to say it, but I think you want to say, but you haven't said it yet. Is there anything you want to say to Michael in regards to cooperating? What can I say? He ratted. He cooperated. He cooperated with the fucking government. He wanted to get on his fucking high horse. I didn't send somebody to prison. He met with the fucking government and ratted. You're a fucking rat.

I want to talk about respect. You want to talk like that? Put your fucking finger at me. Oh, what are you going to do? What am I going to do? I'll break your fucking face. Let me say, right? This is what you're not going to be fucking dead. Generally? Yeah. My fucking category? Oh beautiful for spacious skies For amber waves of grain

For purple mountain Majestines above the fruited plain America's sweet American God's change is on thee Oh we cry that we're dead From sea to shining sea Beautiful Four heroes

Blue Eliberated strike They mark that's out there country love and worse more than like

Thank you.