PBD Podcast - Mafia States of America | Episode 3 - “You’re a Rat!”

Episode Date: November 9, 2025

Sammy Gravano and Michael Franzese nearly come to blows as decades of silence, betrayal, and broken codes erupt in the most explosive episode yet of Mafia States of America.------👍 RATE US ON SPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/3FVOp5guWNV4b0S9pfuVcw🖊️ VT AUTOGRAPH COLLECTION: https://bit.ly/4qO3qGK📕 REGISTER FOR BPW 2025 - FRIDAY, DECEMBER 12TH 2025: https://bit.ly/3IU2YWx🎙️ FOLLOW THE PODCAST ON SPOTIFY: ⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4g57zR2🎙️ FOLLOW THE PODCAST ON ITUNES: ⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4g1bXAh🎙️ FOLLOW THE PODCAST ON ALL PLATFORMS: https://bit.ly/4eXQl6AⓂ️ CONNECT ON MINNECT: ⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4kSVkso Ⓜ️ PBD PODCAST CIRCLES: https://bit.ly/4mAWQAP🥃 BOARDROOM CIGAR LOUNGE: https://bit.ly/4pzLEXj🍋 ZEST IT FORWARD: https://bit.ly/4kJ71lc 📕 PBD'S BOOK "THE ACADEMY": https://bit.ly/41rtEV4👔 BET-DAVID CONSULTING: https://bit.ly/4lzQph2 📺 JOIN THE CHANNEL: ⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4g5C6Or💬 TEXT US: Text “PODCAST” to 310-340-1132 to get the latest updates in real-time! SUBSCRIBE TO: @VALUETAINMENT @ValuetainmentComedy @theunusualsuspectspodcast @HerTakePod @bizdocpodcast ABOUT US:Patrick Bet-David is the founder and CEO of Valuetainment Media. He is the author of the #1 Wall Street Journal Bestseller “Your Next Five Moves” (Simon & Schuster) and a father of 2 boys and 2 girls. He currently resides in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida.

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Get the new iPhone 17 Pro at TELUS.com slash iPhone 17 Pro on select plans. Conditions and exclusions apply. What can I say? He read it. He cooperated. He cooperated with the fucking. government wants to get on his fucking high horse. I didn't send somebody to prison. He met with the fucking government and rat. You're a fucking rat.

Do you want to talk about respect? You want to talk like that? Put your fucking finger at me. What am I going to do? What am I going to do? I'll break your fucking face. Let's see what the fuck I'll do. Let me tell you. I'm putting me in your category. My fucking category? You're not the year. You're not doing the boss. Generally? Yeah. Well, it's right now. What are you going to do now?

Sammy, Sammy, Sammy. Sammy, Sammy. You are not going to do this. Michael. Can we please grab seats? I'm not impressed. Surrogh, it's been a long day. We'll take a break. We'll sit down. We'll go out of here and sit down.

It's been a long day. It's been a long day. I'm not impressed, Sammy. You're not the under boss. I went 30 minutes over. I went 30 minutes over. Michael, I went through this is Michael. Tell him to stop this garbage.

I got you. I got you. I got you. I want to stop. That's how you handle yourself. When you talk to me like that, fuck you think you're talking to? Sammy.

I fucking eat you. Samuel. I'm talking to you, Michael. I'm talking to you, Sammy. Stop the baloney. You can talk to me in front of these fucking people there. That's what in front of him. Do it away from this fucking joy.

I'm not impressed, Sammy. Sammy, out of respect, my respect you, if you respect, I say we take a break. I take responsibility. I shouldn't ask that question. You could ask the question. He don't know how to answer. Gerard, let's cut it. You okay if we cut it now?

Let's just cut now. Michael, I'm telling you, we've gone too long. It's been eight hours already. Let's just take a break. Have it eaten for a long time. the top. I understand the European Europe

Yeah He cried like it He burned From sea to shine and see Right now. Now the whole reason to have a sit down Is to some kind of agreement Obviously that's not happening right now

I think we've got a lot lesson. That sometimes you've got to have the tough conversations. Patrick Beck David, who put this together, was right to get these two in a room and hash out their differences. I mean, no one else but Patrick would attempt to do something like this, and he made it happen. Think about it. From Joe Volachi in the 60s, the first one ever to break Omertha. And now here we are, and two bosses are talking. Wow. The times have changed. When they met with you, who did they ask you about?

Was there names? Was there anything when you met with the feds? Yes. They asked me about a lot of stuff. Okay. And... I didn't tell them. They talked with them, but he didn't tell them.

No. But he talked with them. You know what? I'm glad you gave me the opportunity. Let me tell you what happened. Sure. This is important. They bring me into the Norby Walters case. They subpoenaed me, Nobi Walters. I saved Nobi Walters' life three times. Korki Vastola wanted to kill him, Persico wanted to kill him, and my father wanted to kill him. Three times I saved him because I liked him because I saved him because I was a kid. Uncle Norbi I called him. He was a thief. He didn't pay up what he was supposed to do. He robbed my father. He did all of that. But I liked him. You know why? Because he used to get me tickets. Michael Jackson, this and that. That's what he did. He represented all of the black talent. And I liked them. Fast talker, smart guy. They bring me in because I was his partner. I gave him $250,000 to be in the, when he was going to be a sports agent also. It's in the whole case.

In the Newsday documentary, that's what they were talking about. Yes. Yes. While I was in jail, he's threatening athletes in my name. I'm in jail. Me, my father and my brother, he's using my name. Fed's come to me in prison. I said, I don't, I don't not talking to you. They ship me out of there, bring me to Reno, Oklahoma, and then they bring me to Chicago. I said, look, I don't know what he did when I was in prison. Well, you were on tape giving him $250,000. Yeah, I was his partner. Yeah, I don't know what he did afterwards.

When I was there, we were in business. What did you want to be in business for? Because he had athletes, and I thought they can help us in our gambling operation. That's why I was there. I gave him the money. I never seen a dime back. Gave him the money, right? Here's what happens.

They bring me in to testify against Norby. I tell the truth. I was his partner. I know of Norby since I'm a baby. Nobody said he wasn't involved. He was in a grand jury answering questions about my father. What are you talking about? I know Noby all my life.

Nobby doesn't do one day in prison. I didn't hurt him on the stand. That's number one. You took the stand? Yes, 100%. Sam, you don't care. Why would you go take the stand? Because I was subpoenaed and I wanted to.

You don't have to take the stand. I didn't have to. You never have to. You could take the fifth if they fall. 100%. But let me tell you something. I'm not trying to clean myself up. I can care who calls me a rat.

I'm trying to tell you the truth of what happened. So now, after I testify, Ed McDonald and all the agents from New York come out to Chicago. They're sitting in a room with me with Anton Volupus, who was a U.S. attorney at the time in Chicago, second powerful guy in the country under Giuliani. And they said to me, Francis, you're a dead man. It's all over the street. You took to stand cooperate with us. I looked at Ed McDonald, my hand to God, and I said, I hate you people.

You people frame my father. Eastern District of New York. I'm doing the time because of you. I wouldn't, I wouldn't help you for all the money in the world. Listen to me. No. The plea was, yes, the plea was with Ed McDonald. Yes.

So he's the, he's the prosecutor. He was a prosecutor. Now, let me finish what happened. The FBI agent, who I like, George Randolph, became a friend of mine. That's another old story. Comes out and he says, Michael, you're making, you're making a big mistake. I said, what are you talking about? I'm not going to help DC.

guys one bit I don't care if my life's in danger you know what he tells me on the QT listen to me he said you're a smart guy you you've been manipulating things you know how to do this the strike force is going to fall apart they're disbanding it play a game I said what are you talking about he says put a put a time limit on you on your on your cooperation and jerk them around it's exactly what he's done let me finish let me finish I said, how long of a time age? He says, give him a year. I says, a year.

You know what I can do in a year? You know how much stuff I can get the? He says, this is the federal government. Give him a year. Six months into it, the strike force department falls apart. I'm done and I'm out. Nobody gets hurt. Not a soul.

So you had this chummy conversation with this agent this whole time? And it was really all an innocent thing. No. Instead of Omerto, as you say, go fuck yourself and walk away. You had all these chummy conversations, and I know about Ed McDonald. Yeah. I happen to know about it. And he was part of the agreement.

Wasn't he part of the agreement with the $15 million fund and all that shit? My plea. And they didn't follow up and never got a penny of your phone, or a little bit of your money, maybe. Well, not initially, but they got it afterwards. You paid them the $15 million? They got a lot of money for me. I've been leaving at that. What money did they get?

And how does the government? in your plea, except $15 million in your agreement, and it's never paid. That's not true. That's not true, Sam. What do you mean it's not true? It's not true. Did you pay $15 million?

My settlement with the government was settled, and it wasn't because of any cooperation. What is it for? Because I paid what I had to pay. You paid $15 million. I paid enough money on it to where I got it over with, after 20 years. And I don't want to get it to lawyer.

No, I agree. You've got a $15 million dollar fine. You never paid it. Then you paid some dribs and drips and it went 20 years. What government agency is going to do that? Our government. Our government agency. I don't know what you're trying to say, but what you're trying to say is wrong.

I'm not starting to say nothing because when you come out with this whole fucking thing about a mirtho and this is the way it's done and this is I walked away, you're putting down this whole hundred people and me and everybody else who did cooperate. No, I'm not. So you're showing what Omerto is. No, I'm not. And I'm showing you a part of breaking that thing. I said, I opened this up by saying I betrayed my oath.

I broke my oath. Yeah, yeah. I understand you, bro, you know. I told you what my... I understand it's several different ways. Sitting here is breaking your fucking... 100%. And there's no walking away from the mafia.

Then what did I do? You should get killed for it, but you did. Because you had reasons. You said your father even wanted to kill you. So they wanted to kill you. Well, wait a minute. That's what the government said. My father never admitted to that.

The government said, my father went along with the country. You just said, you just said that my father even went along with what? That's what they told me. He denied it, but that's what the government told me. Do you want to know something? I believe it. I believe my father would have went along with it. I don't think he would have pulled the trigger.

But I know my father's mentality. I believe he would have went along with it. Unfortunately, but yes. And I still love my dad. Listen, I love people. I testify. for Huck who was on a hit to come down and kill me. Yeah, but I don't even love him, but I think you're missing a point.

I don't miss a point. The point is I betrayed my old. You have to live with that. If you betrayed you, then that's not all right. I agree. But don't come out with some fucking brazing story about your father, what he did. Now, it forces me into a position that maybe he was dumb.

No, it's not. It has nothing to do with you. It has, this is not personal to you. That he's going to be thrown on a side. He was broken, you became a captain, he did, and he stood there no matter what. I don't care about the guys who sent me to prison. I would like to kill every motherfucker who sent me to prison. That's normal.

You got it wrong. You not even understand what I'm saying. That was my father's interpretation of Omerta. And you're playing about it. I don't, I'm not bragging about it. It's just it. I did not brag about it. I said that I told my father what the noble thing should have been, okay?

Okay, after your third violation and your family's going down to tubes to leave the life, break all murder and help your family. That's what I said. That's what I told my father. You gave you a perfect example. That's a rat. He told you. Yes. Yes.

So you left the life. Yes. I don't call yourself not a rat or I didn't do it. Sammy, I'm not defending myself. And a lot of guys, you know, I'm not defending of yourself. I'm not defending of yourself. A couple of guys who turn around and say, I sat down and a friend. Proffa meeting, John Gotti Jr. Let's bring this motherfucker up again. John Gotti Jr. I'm not a rat. I just sat in a proper meeting. They forced me. Let's finish. Let me finish with this guy. Let's finish. Go ahead. They forced me this proper meeting. The government, it's illegal, can never force you into a proper meeting. Every lawyer in the country knows that. That's true. You ask, I would like to talk to the agents. That's true. In a proper meeting. What? What goes on in the proper meeting? Let's tell people what go.

on. When you go in there, everybody talks. You talk about your crimes, but somebody else's crimes, Patrick's crimes. But they don't, it don't work out. There's no deal or whatever it is, and I never testify, okay? And everything is down. I didn't know. What I said about, Patrick, these agents are making notes. They heard that. They can't force me to testify against him. They're not going to pinch him. But they know now that Patrick, that they never knew, is a drug dealer. And then they turn around and they say, okay, we're going to sign five inches on this fucking guy. 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

Three months from now, Patrick gets pinched, you don't know, it's fucking head of spitting. What happened? What caused this? Little old me in a proffered meeting, or John June, in a prophet meeting. meeting that's what you caused so you don't know wait wait wait you can't say that's what you cause because you don't know that what I'm telling you that's not what I'm saying you cause when I say you I mean you in general blanket blanket statement against anybody who goes into a proffer meeting talks about his crimes and everybody else's crimes and they don't use

like John Jr I said not you he's going to say I was forced into it that's where you're not forced it. Second of all, they didn't use me on, on the, as a witness. Maybe that's the other part of the deal. But the innocent poor Patrick is a target. I understand. And he's going to go down the tubes because of judge. You never know what the fuck even happens. Sammy, okay, but listen to me, you, you took this the wrong way. Because, yeah, I didn't come here and say, Sammy, you did this, this, this, and this, and that, because of that, you were a rat. I never made... Oh, no, no, let me forget it, God.

I never said one thing that way. I'm telling you what I believe Omerita to be, according to my father. And you know something? Let me finish. Omerita is, you take that oath, you never betray it. You never talk. You never say anything.

No matter who violate you, if Persico mistreated my father, has nothing to do with the oath he took. If you were sitting there, if you were, your father was sitting there and told me that. I would say, Sonny. Okay.

But that's his intervie. He did certain things. He didn't break Omerta. Okay. So I would take that from him. But when I explained what Umerta is, why I walked away, why other people walked away, I even used Fat Cat Nichols in that scenario so people could understand. Then you gave this speech about...

I didn't give a speech. No, I told you what Umerta is. Patrick asked me and I said... I know what it is. Okay. I answered Patrick's question. No, you don't. I was based all my life on double murders

and every fucking murders that I didn't commit and everything. All my life, not once, all my life. Never cooperating. Okay. I was offered 20 years. So then what is Omertha? Amirta is a piece of shit

if you don't agree to it. If you don't agree to it, it's nothing. Okay, but what is it supposed to be? It's supposed to be silence. What are we told? We told that no matter what, No matter what happens in that life. But I said that it's a double-edged sword.

You can't have your own interpretation of a murder. It is what it is. I don't know. No, I'm not saying. It is what it is. You can't talk, period. I don't care who. This is my, this is not me, understand something.

I'm giving you the interpretation of a murder and you know what it is. You can't talk about anything at any time, period, ever. Don't violate the oath, don't admit to the mafia. I don't care who persecutes you in that life. Who does this? You never open your mouth, period. That was my father's interpretation, and that's the... That's America. So you were walking away, you already broken.

So now Norby Walters comes in, and he fucking nails the shit out of you that you're gonna do life without parole, not a small thing that you're facing, life without parole on his life. So you'll do the life without parole because you're gonna take the statement, right? And you're gonna take the time. Or you're gonna say,

Fuck him. Fuck the life. Just like you already did. Right. Even not facing life without parole. And if I violate the oath because of that, then I violated Omerta. If Norby Walters mistreated me in every which way possible and I violate the oath, I violate the oath. Period.

I betrayed my oath by talking. That's Omerta. We're not supposed to admit to the life. Then I'll back up. If that's what you're saying. Yes. I said, you're going to be, basically, you're already violated. So if you let me put you away for a lie,

and you're going to face life for that pool, you would break it again. If me, let me tell you something. When my father takes an oath and then tells me on the side, this life is full of shit, well, what do you mean, Dad? In other words, my family went down the tubes for an oath that you took and it's really all full of shit. Then what are we doing?

That was my, that was my thinking. Okay, so when I violated the oath, I violated because I didn't want to be in a life anymore. So you violated. And my other question is simple. Navi Walters is now, put a 40 case on you, and you're going to do life for that parole. Mm-hmm. You already violated by leaving. Mm-hmm.

And talk. So two. Right. So that you're not going to talk about it. You're not going to cooperate or do nothing because you're going to do life for parole. So that's what you're going to do, or you're going to violate the third time? Me? Yeah.

Well, if I already violated, what's the different? Once you violate it. But then, I apologize. Yeah, once you violate, you violate. Listen. I don't want to fight with you. I'm touching in this area, and I apologize if I was to go. Yes, because I was not coming at you.

I was just explaining. I was answering this question. I want you. Listen, people do things for whatever reasons they do it for, and I'm not here to judge anybody. Good. at all. Good. That's good enough for me. But you asked me that same question. Would I do it again?

Would I leave? 100%. 100%. No question. I will tell you what happened with me. I was very conflicted initially. I would wake up in the morning, walking away from the life, I'd go to sleep at night's staying. Because I felt horrible betraying my oath. And, you know, for me it's double because I got a father who was, this was his life. So it was very difficult, emotionally for me. It was very, very hard.

But at the end, my family won out. And maybe, Patrick, if I didn't see the destruction in my own family, maybe I would have thought differently. I don't know. But I couldn't do it. I just met a young girl and we're going to have a life together, and I couldn't do it. And that's why some people talk and say certain things about you, I told you this. And I talk with them.

Sometimes they hear that, just like I got excited a little bit. they get excited and they'll say things about you. Maybe things that ain't true. And I put it into that. You know that. Twice. You absolutely did. But Sammy, let me ask you question.

I do that because I... Let me ask you a question. If you know the guys are on the street, first of all, they didn't violate the oath because they were never there to begin with. There was no oath that they took. They're on the street. They cooperated. They put other guys in prison.

And now they want to talk about me. Either of you regret breaking deal or no? Which if you had to done it again, would you have done it the same exact way after you If I would have done a second time around, what I should have done, I was in jail with John, I should have killed him in prison. That's what you should have done. And did life without the world. Why is that?

Because that's what I stood for all my life. And at that point, that would appease my fucking bitterness towards Costa Austria and him. I should have killed it. Now, every time I go on the street for a murder, to me, that's a suicide mission. I'm doing a violent fucking act. Cops or something happens, it's over for me. I never thought or thought about a MRFTA or cooperating or not cooperating. but I was going to shoot it out.

So when I went out on the street, it was like, when I go here, if it goes haywire, if it goes south, I'm going to die here. I was pinched twice or two murders that I didn't commit. Let me give you the last one with the iceman. Cuclitzka.

I have nothing to do with this fucking murder. And I'm pinched. The state of New Jersey comes to me and they said, listen, Sammy, it's a cold case, killing of a cop. It's 23 years old. We just want to solve it. He's telling me you did it with him, really. You got 20 years with the feds, you got 19 with the state of Arizona running together.

We'll give you 20 years with the state running together like the Arizona is. So you won't do a day. All you've got to do is come in and apologize. to his kids, but tell us who's in the cause with you. I said, I can't apologize to his kids. Why? I didn't kill him. I don't think I could look at his kids in the eye

and I'm sorry that I killed your dad. I don't think I could do that. Then you'll do fucking brand new dirty of life. That's what you face. Good. So being, my lawyer told me, you're fucking crazy. No, I'm not crazy.

I'm going to take a chance. So I took a chance on cases all my life. Chances are hitting the street. So that was the worst day in my life was when I got made. There was other great days, get married, all kids, all kinds of things.

The worst day in my fucking life is when I carpent and it broke the oath. I don't give a fuck about nobody else. I have to look in the mirror at myself and I don't like it. I don't like what I say or what I did. So there's a difference By the same token

I have to protect what I did and what I am. So I got some little bitch sitting at home with a fucking computer you fucking rat This motherfucker would sit at the same table with me and if he did I'd be picking his fucking bones out of my teeth

I'm not just a racket I'm a fucking full flesh next to I may be a little older but I'm still So that's the way it is. And there's guys who went out there like Fat Cat Nichols had a tremendous respect, man. So when I gave him, and I understand what he did. There's an understanding of everything you do in life. There's a part where you tell that I saw you,

they were talking about how you asked the Feds to let you get back in prison for two weeks to be able to face off with John to tell him to his face that you're about to flip. Were you in that moment conflicted whether you were going to tell him or whether you were going to kill him? Like your decision hadn't been in your bank? Me and Frankie Laccasio, and we were in prison, it was out there. Frank, you agree.

That was the story. And that's why John put a contract on him. We met in the hall. Frankie told me, said, Simon, nobody ever talked to me like this in my life. And tears running down in his face. Tough guy. True, tough guy.

I looked at that and was sick in it. He said, I'm going to kill this, motherfucker. I said, Frankie, we already killed him, but he's going to kill another. And I was just as man as he was with John at that point. And he says, yeah, you're sure. Yeah. I put my hand out. As soon as we get out, we're killing.

I was so fucked up in the brain by this betrayal. I didn't even think of it. We could have just killed him right down and there. Sharpen up a couple shanks. The two of us. walk into the cell, I'll cut his throat, you keep stabbing it, or you want to do it the other way around. But instead, we were so fucked up in him.

We were talking about a victory party. There was going to be no victory party. That's how we were going to kill. And he told me, he said, all I want, I want to pull the trigger with it. Because pulling a toss, the guys, once you've done it and who cares who pulls the trigger. And I told him, if that's what you want, you got it.

I'll have my guys where I'll bring them to a restaurant and I'll get rid of the body. And they will claim me, they never showed up or whatever. I said, but one more thing, Frankie, I'll never ever be anybody else's underboss. Again, in my fucking life. Never. I'll be the dog of the boss when we get out and we kill him.

Or I'll fucking die trying. Said Sammy, I'll be your underboss. I'll be your captain. I'll be whatever you want. I'll be behind you. thousand fucking percent. All I want to do is pull the tree with them. I put my fucking hand out. We shook hands and we left. That weird mentality that we were so hurt, that's what we thought, we walked away, and then we got separated. We couldn't kill no more. And then finally,

we had this meeting on August, middle of August, with our flea valley. He tells us that flee Bailey, I'm not going to do the time. Don't worry about it. We're going to go to a victory party. Flee Bailey tells him, no. No, this case is too strong. You ain't going no victory party. No, don't worry about it. Sammy and Frankie, they're going to take the fucking weight in. F. Flea Bailey wouldn't take the case because of that statement, and he was in an interview just recently when Jerry Capicey has on his head. Three months was hard as September, October, November. Three months later, in November, he sits with me personally. We're going to work with the lawyers. you're going to take the weight

and I'm going to go free. You really want that, John? The boss has to be on the street. Okay, and I flew. First time in my life. I've pinched all my life from 14 years old up until fucking 40-something

when I went into prison. What happened? Michael, what were you asked for a chance? So, so, so, so, so. So, but I'm being, I'm being serious. Say, say RICO law doesn't take an effect. Say, uh, the, the, the Perf, Cornell professor doesn't teach Rudy how to do it and nobody knows. And that doesn't happen. Okay. And you keep doing your own thing. You're an earner. You're making money. What were some of your aspirations long time? It can't just be money. Here's where Sammy and I are going to disagree. What didn't I like about that life? Forgetting on the surface, what didn't I like? I hated going to Brooklyn and hanging out in social clubs. You didn't like that? No, didn't like that.

Really? No. It's not what I wanted. I had a house in Florida. I had a jet plane. This is when I started making big money. I had a place in California. I started making movies. I didn't want to be.

If somebody was said to me, you could be the boss of this family, and I know people say that, I didn't want that. I was making a lot of money. I was making a lot of money. I had a good life. I wanted to spend my time in California, Florida. They assigned me to Florida, give me a crew down there. You want me to operate it?

I didn't enjoy being in Brooklyn. I didn't enjoy hanging out with all the guys. It just wasn't for me. Now, I like my crew of guys, because we did all the, I was in control, we did all the same stuff. You know, I had two boats, I had a helicopter, had a jet plane, I had a house in different parts of the country, I'm making movies.

That's what I wanted. Let me make money. Let me take care of the family the way I'm supposed to take care. But please don't tell me to come to Brooklyn every day. I don't want that. I don't think they would have forced you to do that. No, they wouldn't. Sinatra wasn't in clubs.

They wouldn't. When you had that power, like Sinatra, had that power to make money, the biggest thing is he would come to somebody's wedding and boss's kid's wedding and Samuel and do something. But that's what you could have did the same thing. Well, I was doing that. So to answer you a question,

I didn't want to be the boss of the family. At all. No. No, no. My father, on the other hand, okay, listen to me, Mike, and this is it, by the time, we're going to end up taking control of the Colombian family. This is what he said, for whatever reason. We or we? We meaning me and him.

Meaning you being the boss or him being the boss, because my dad was on parole for the rest of his life. So his aspiration was for you to be the boss for a bit? How often would you guys have that conversation? Often. Okay. And I was to tell him that. No, no, no, listen to me. he bide your time. You know, I was very, very upset. I was a captain. He was a captain.

He comes out on his one parole violation. He had five violations. And Junior breaks him from his captaincy. He's a soldier now. I'm a captain. My father's a soldier. It was embarrassing to me. I said, Dad, how could they do this to you? I said, I don't get it. How could they do this to you? I was very angry about it. But my father, the voice of reason, he said, look, Mike, this life is like this life is like a wheel who's on top today things change tomorrow

keep your mouth shut bide your time it's going to be our time that's what he wanted I didn't want it Sammy I'll be honest for you but that's what he wanted because that was his mindset

and I think my dad believes that if he didn't go to jail and get the case that he got he had enough respect and he was very capable and I think he would have I think my dad would have been a good boss I mean that

And maybe that would have happened in, you know, that would have happened in that family. And I can't, our family was so messed up all the time. What him and his father said, because I wasn't there, I don't know. There's no reason for me to doubt that unless I want to be a hump and just for, you know. What were your aspirations? My aspirations is I knew no one in the life. Nobody in my family was in the life. becoming one of them as a made guy

what would be mind-boggling to me I never even imagine that to happen becoming a captain would be something I gave no thought to Frankie Cico guys are in the mob they had brothers, cousins, uncles, aunts everybody's in the fucking mafia

it's hard to overcome that they got a lot of power within their own little group becoming the boss, I never imagined being a concierge, which I became, and then I became the underboats. Now, for me, when my father first made me acting captain, made sense. My dad was on parole. He couldn't be with anybody. So he made me his acting captain.

When I became a captain, I was unhappy. Because now I'm going to have four or five, six more guys that I got to worry about every day. who's in trouble who's doing this who's that it wasn't a question all these guys are bringing me money now because i'm the captain because i was the guy making the money for my crew why didn't you refuse i didn't my father don't want me to refuse okay that's an answer because you don't have to when you're a main guy you're a main guy then the boss sends down on the boss of woodslayer or somebody to come to you and say like i did or john junior we're offering you the position to become a capital. Could you handle it? So you've got to say, yes, I'll become a capital. But I'm going to say

this, and this is the part of the life that we now, that I understand that you have to support me on this. What happened at that time, Patrick? I was under heavy investigation. You know, they had a 14 agency task force that would meet on me after I beat a couple of cases. I think Newsday, whatever was, wrote an article that I was making all this money. I had the Russians. I was becoming powerful enough to break away from the combos and stop my whole family. It was fantasy island. There was no truth to it.

It was a ridiculous story that a reporter made up out of nowhere. He didn't have one factual item to support a story like that. But what I believe, it started to get in people's heads because I had a couple of incidents before that. I believed that when my father got home from prison, Jr. did not want to make me a captain. I think he made me a captain, so I didn't have to report to my father anymore. I had to report directly to him. That's the kind of Machiavellian thing that I'm talking about,

because now my father wasn't my boss anymore. Yeah, I see if I'm a different. Junior, I reported directly to junior. You know, the part I go to is the following. Okay, so if you follow, is it fair to say Joseph Kennedy was very ambitious, the father? Yes, he was in Joseph. But he's ambitious, right?

You're pretty ambitious as well, and you're pretty ambitious as well. You know, you see, is it fair to say Prescott Bush was pretty ambitious, the great grandfather, you know, of all these kids? Is it fair to say that, you know, Fred Trump was ambitious, not Donald Trump, but maybe even Fred's father was ambitious who came in here in Alaska, he's running, you know, restaurants and all this other stuff? Who was behind closed doors saying, guys, the only way we can take this thing to the next level is we got to get one of our. kids to be the president one day. And he said, this is the only way this is going to work out long term. This model is not sustainable long term, unless if somebody goes to the top and we finally figure something out. There was no one behind closed doors breeding and wanting to raise someone to go at that level of political power. Because you don't have that kind of power.

We had a different kind of smalls. I don't think we ever, any of us, had the ambition to become the president of the United States. It's too complex. Or even raise a kid to do it? I never heard that. I never heard you. You never heard anybody say that? No. No. I heard. I knew that.

Get no frills delivered. Shop the same in-store prices online and enjoy unlimited delivery with PC Express Pass. Get your first year for $2.50 a month. Learn more at pceexpress.ca. Check out the big stars, big series, and blockbuster movies. Streaming on Paramount Plus. music like NCIS Tony and Ziva we'd like to make up our own rules Tulsa King we want to take out the competition the substance this balance is not working and the naked gun that was awesome now that's a

mountain of entertainment we wanted to have control of the president of united states that's It's different. We already did that. Yeah. That's happened. But I never, I'm not saying it was out of the realm of thought. You think it was a missed opportunity? To think that way and cast a vision that way where somebody, maybe the boss of bosses said everyone

down and says, guys, here's what we have to think about. 30 years, this is not sustainable. We have to have one of our kids to be the president. No, I'm going to tell you why. I don't believe in Tul Rico came in that we thought it was unsustainable. I thought we were able to. You thought he weren't touching. Oh, absolutely.

Listen, Sammy, he'll back me up. The golden years of the Goes and Oster in this country, in my opinion, was from the 50s, right through the mid-80s when everything fell apart. But during that time, Patrick, we had a, come on, the power that we had, you control the unions, you control the country. You've got politicians that are at you. One person can't, you know. No, but you had families all over the country that were working. together in some way that had control of the different sectors of the society. Being controlled.

Yeah. The only thing I ever told or thought of when I sat with my son, and I said, son, I don't want this for you. I want this to become a senator, a congressman. You've said that or no? No, I'm imitating the Godfather. I fucking know I didn't know it. So you know, so that's what I'm saying.

But even that was a playbook where he gave a playbook because his aspirations were, you know. He don't want him to carry that life and style. So I can see maybe me or Michael torpens a lot. So I'm not with that accent. I tried to put it on. It probably didn't work. But we wanted our kid to be something else because we didn't want him to come in this life. He's either going to get shot in the head.

He's going to shoot his friend in the head. He's going to go to prison. Why the fuck would I want him in the head? And that's why Chin told John, I'm sorry to hear that. Why would you take your son in this life, especially that he don't fit in their life? It's the same thing. Well, my brother, my dad wanted to propose my brother. And I said, Dad, you know, he had a problem at that time with drugs.

It's common knowledge. And I said, why would you want to do that to him? You can't put a guy with that problem in the life. Because he's got a target on his back. But a father sits there and he looks at it. and he looks at his kids. Like the saying goes, hey, son, your daddy studied math

so you can one day study art. You know, it's like, hey, your daddy is willing to go work his butt off 100 hours a week so you can go do whatever the hell you want to do when you grow up so you don't have to go through to the shit your dad went through.

There's got to be somebody that's got to say this has got to stop to go and to do that. We have to stop doing the dirty work. This is not sustainable long term. But you just said, that's what we do. Right. You're going to bust your ass.

He's going to bust his ass. I'm gonna bust my ass. I went to prison for fucking shit. I didn't even know. Because I wanted my family to go ahead and be something that I wasn't. Who pulled that off at the house? Who actually did that?

Who used a model to get out and set up their life forever? You essentially did it one way, right? Meaning you went in it and then you got out, you're like, I don't want to do this anymore. And now you have a, you know, you have a legitimate life.

You have a, you know, restaurants. you have pizza shops and you guys you guys are doing stuff your kids are doing stuff your family's doing stuff who else did it legitimately that they left and their life was actually good afterwards i am doing that right now now i left i go up right that don't mean nothing i'm it's the same thing i was betrayed i left the life booked them off here and i'm going on maybe it's a different way where the person caught there's a hundred guys who are operating they're out there They could change their lives. Some of them are stuck on stupid tree.

There are a few people that are genetically inherently bad, evil, even. But most people are shaped that way by circumstances. Coming up on Mafia States of America. How does it feel knowing what a lot of you did at that time that was illegal? today is multi-multi-billion-dollar empires. Prohibition is what created them off in this country. It's what made Kosovo's to grow in this country, because that's when the money came in.

We built cities, New York, Chicago, Vegas. They infiltrated out politics, the infiltrated out businesses, they infiltrated the church. The people are like zombies sometimes. Every time we would tax them in one way or another raise the price of bread. We had the bread associates. Raise the price of construction.

Raise the price of this. They bids you moat, but did nothing. It's the same thing right now. We're politicians. For Black Mountain Majestine's above the fruited plain America's sweet America got changes on thee that you be dead

and the first see to shine in sea, yeah. Oh, beautiful, four heroes, bruised. Eliberated stride. Hey, mark that's fair, country loving, mercy more than life.