PBD Podcast - Mafia States of America | Episode 6 - "The Fall and the Faith"

Episode Date: November 12, 2025

Sammy Gravano and Michael Franzese face off on guilt, loyalty, legacy, and redemption in the most emotional episode of Mafia States of America.----🎙️ FOLLOW THE PODCAST ON SPOTIFY: ⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4g57zR2🎙️ FOLLOW THE PODCAST ON ITUNES: ⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4g1bXAh🎙️ FOLLOW THE PODCAST ON ALL PLATFORMS: https://bit.ly/4eXQl6AⓂ️ CONNECT ON MINNECT: ⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4kSVkso Ⓜ️ PBD PODCAST CIRCLES: https://bit.ly/4mAWQAP🥃 BOARDROOM CIGAR LOUNGE: https://bit.ly/4pzLEXj🍋 ZEST IT FORWARD: https://bit.ly/4kJ71lc 📕 PBD'S BOOK "THE ACADEMY": https://bit.ly/41rtEV4👔 BET-DAVID CONSULTING: https://bit.ly/4lzQph2 📺 JOIN THE CHANNEL: ⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4g5C6Or💬 TEXT US: Text “PODCAST” to 310-340-1132 to get the latest updates in real-time! SUBSCRIBE TO: @VALUETAINMENT @ValuetainmentComedy @theunusualsuspectspodcast @HerTakePod @bizdocpodcast ABOUT US:Patrick Bet-David is the founder and CEO of Valuetainment Media. He is the author of the #1 Wall Street Journal Bestseller “Your Next Five Moves” (Simon & Schuster) and a father of 2 boys and 2 girls. He currently resides in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida.

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This Black Friday, you've got a whole month to catch all the exclusive offers waiting for you. See your local Nissan dealer or nison.ca for details. Conditions apply. Previously on Mafia States of America. What caused the fall of the mob? Was it Pistone? Was it Giuliani? Was it Volachi? Mid-80s, racketeering law. When the government changed or leveled the playing field to a degree that we just couldn't keep up with it, a guy gets convicted, he gets 10 years, 15 years, he makes parole, he does 7, 8, 9, anybody can do that kind of time.

When you change the playing field to where you bring in a law like the RICO Act, that's very hard to defend. To me, it's unconstitutional. The fear of the government overpowered the fear that we had on the street. And as a result, a lot of guys went the other way, and you just couldn't overcome it. Like any other great organization, they were, from their point of view, they were fortunate to have Luciano and Lanski, one financial genius. The other one, kind of an organizational genius. Put together a structure that was better than anybody else. And if you followed their rules, they might still be.

Rudy was another guy. You know, these guys, again, you're a prosecutor. so long brings you a case so be it he takes the law and he invents ways to like he says it's unconstitutional to corrupt the law

to hurt these people America speak America God's changes are deep He cried like it He breathed

and see to shine and see. I had a friend, Phil Folia, my best friend. I was his best man, he was my best man in the weddings. One of the great men I've ever met in my whole life, probably the greatest man, other than my father, of course. But Phil was a DA, worked with Rudy Giuliani. One time a guy went in his office and they were trying to get him, this guy, that mafia got a flip. Well, he leaned back in his chair and said, well, I've got to think about it, Phil. I want to think about my future.

And Phil said, your future. He stood up, walked over to him, grabbed him by his elbow, brought him over to the big window, and said, do you see that sun? Look at that sun. Make a mental picture of it. Because the next time you're going to see that sun is the year 2040. Now get the fuck out of here.

Ten minutes later, he came back and he sang like Pomerati. He told him everything. Because he knew he wasn't about to go away for 40, 50 years, pal. The other day I'm at the Ferrari dealership, I'm about to get a call. My son's with me. A guy pulls me inside and says, hey, he said, I love your interviews. I said, cool. He says, you know, Sammy bought my wife a gift 30 years ago?

I said, I'm great. He says, so you're working on anything right? And I said, I'm working on something big, right? And I says, why are those guys so close to you? Why did those guys trust you? Are you in the life? I said, I'm just a guy that's interviewing, right? So there is risk for me.

But my risk isn't doing this because I'm enamored. I'm fascinated by what if one day I'm a maid man. What I'm enamored by is, was there ever a moment where Sammy could have flipped to gone and lived a good life? Could we have ever prevented a Sammy from happening? Could we have ever prevented or Michael from happening? Could that have been prevented? That's my fascination. My fascination is now with the life of, oh, it's so cool.

They kill people. I don't think that part's cool. So the law and order is the only difference. Well, when you make that argument, I go back and process it, military's law and order. I'm following my command, and you don't have the law to go out there and say, hey, everybody does it. Not everybody does it. But who makes these laws? The politicians, too.

Yeah, governments, yeah. So they make a law, they'll make, and we all know it, they'll make some excuse to attack a government, to attack a country, whatever which reason. And some countries, there's really not even a reason anymore. And we attack people and kill them in droves. So they made those laws. And that makes it legitimate. In God's eyes, we were talking about. In God's eyes, you don't think God knows that that's all fake and phony and bullshit of those laws?

I understand what you're saying, but you have the ability to want to go into office and want to amend some of those laws if you really wanted to change some of them. That's the... I'll be a congressman or a senator? No, what I'm saying. If it really mattered to an individual, the system is set up, I've lived in Iran. And I lived in Iran 10 years, okay? We can go around telling people we're Christians.

We couldn't do it. We were taught. Somebody asked you what religion knew or you used to ask my parents, I don't know. That we couldn't really feel that free. This is what your parents are telling. The point I'm saying to you is there was no law in order. It meant nothing. What protects Americans to freely say...

No, there's law and order, even in Iran, but it's their, a man-made law and order. It's their law and order. It's not here because you can come here with three together. What are we trying to say? Look, Sammy, will we criminals just enough? Without a doubt. Okay. Is that normal to be a criminal?

No, not really. Is it normal for me to take an oath and say, If my mother is sick and dying, and this criminal organization calls me that I'm a part of to go kill somebody, I'm supposed to leave my mother's side and go and kill that person. Is that normal? I took an oath to do that. That's not normal. It's not normal, saying. I can give you that in the word that that's not normal, but there's a lot of people out there all over the planet, different countries like I'm starting to talk about.

different countries, that it creates these things and these issues and these problems. So to pick out or find a different thing and blame the whole thing on that particular behind it, like Oslozio, there's so many fucking rules, so many things, there's so many crimes with their law and order. My dad told me one thing a long time ago, and I think you'll agree. Two wrongs never make a right. And neither do 100 wrongs make a right. So you can't say, well, other people are doing it, so I'm doing it.

It's still wrong. I'm not saying it's not wrong. I'm saying that you can't pick out of one item and six. When there is a hundred wrong. There's a lot of guys in that life that I loved. I'm not talking about these guys, but all of us were abnormal being part of that life. It wasn't normal. We didn't think the right way.

When somebody tells you, you've got to go kill this guy. I don't even know this guy Well, you don't have to know what happened Go kill him What do you do? Never mind, just go kill him Okay, that's not normal See him It's not normal because you don't understand

The beginning of goes and I'm not sure How this thing even started And what was? Say man, I don't care if it started 100 years ago I'm not smirking at you I don't care if it started 100 years ago yesterday It's not normal To you, it's not normal

It's not. Good. And keep that in your mind, it's not normal. But yet you'll break that not normal to defend. They go kill somebody who will fuck with your family. Think of a career criminal this way. Think of a, think of a burglar. If he's in jail for four years, you just saved yourself probably a thousand burglaries. That just don't happen. If he's on the, every day he's on the street, he's going to come. a burglary. So you've got to concentrate your law enforcement

efforts on career criminals. The crimes are not committed by everybody. Crimes are committed by far fewer people than you think. And James Q. Wilson, the professor from Harvard, who came up with the broken windows theory also came up with the theory of the career criminal. You've got to find the right

guy and put him in prison. And, boom, you can bring the crime rates down. It doesn't mean everybody. It means the guy who's the recidivist. The guy who is going to get arrested 70 times for banging little old ladies in the head and right now there's no right now it's completely chaotic it's the desire to make criminals feel good Sammy looking at it from the outside from my lens purely my lens and I've studied both of you a lot and I've done my best to study your life a lot a lot of different characters we as individuals have a tendency we all live our

life, especially men who have big egos and we have pride, I would consider myself one. We've done a lot of stupid things. We've made mistakes. Now, some has taken a life, some is personal, some is breaking someone's heart, some is a lot. We've all done stuff that we can sit back and say, you know, I screwed up at this time. And it's very easy as a person who's a great salesperson, persuader, to justify why what I did at that time was the right thing to do.

Do you find yourself trying to justify yourself so you can live with Sammy the rest of your life? Is that what you do for you to say, I didn't do anything wrong? It's normal. That was part of my life. Is there a level? If I thought it was out and out, normal I would be doing it every day and a week right now. I've changed my life. It's not normal.

I give you that. It's not normal lifestyle. So I'm out of that lifestyle and I don't kill. I don't do anything. anything illegitimate. Part of my thing is I don't want to go back to prison. I don't want prison is in a normal fucking place. So I get normal to see what people around me, my family, things I'm doing. I use goes an auction every day and a week in my own thoughts, business wise. I look at a business. I talk to business people and the guy's got a Harvard degree.

and I'm listening to him talk he doesn't even know what the fuck planet is on I'm just asking you know some things we've done in our lives you know what are you doing a sermon here now that you're going to make me become what no I'm not zero I'm no

I've zero intention of making you do anything it's just do you ever find yourself trying to justify certain things you know I don't justify certain things I don't justify it was a way of life and what I did at that particular time I did at that time. I don't make it normal. I don't make it right. It's what it was.

Can I answer your question? That's why. Are you sorry for the things that you did in that life? Some of them, sure, some of them. And I think there was a lot of them, like I said, with the story of Louis, that are unjust. They're unjust. Even in our terms, they're unjust. And those things, like Carmine did, or these scheming things, those are abnormal completely. Those are just devils. Roy DeMayo and these type of people. I'm totally against it. But people who got orders and came into this life as kids

were trained or schooled a certain way. You get blacks that grow up in ghettos. What do we hate them all? Because they did some crimes? They come out of fucking neighborhoods. That's all they know. So at some point they changed their life. At some point something else.

happens. Maybe an intervention should go back then where you help them to get out of that life. To get out of an abnormal life, exactly. Basically, yeah, but it's not there for a lot of people, a lot of situations, it's not there. Listen, I could sit here and tell you, you know, I could give my father a lot of praise for what he did, but in my view, he also sacrificed my family. One of the reasons I walked away because I said, Dad, I'm not putting my mind. family through what our family went through because you didn't want to walk away from that life. I would never want him to be a snitch or a cooperator or anything else. But dad, you had every reason to walk away. You got lifetime parole. You can't be involved with anybody. You

got violated five times. So forget that right now. Nobody's going to talk about you because you lived the life the way you were supposed to live according to the street. So go take care of our family now. And he couldn't do it because it was more important to him. It was more important to him his legacy in that life. And so, for me, I don't want to do that, Dad. So your father was 90-something years old. So you want to flip his legacy, right? Maybe it was a legacy, then.

Maybe it was what he believed in. So hard that he's willing to stay in prisons and everything. So he's wrong. He's crazy. No, he's wrong. I didn't say he was crazy. He's wrong. Then why would he do it?

He's protecting what he was. What do you live for? Why? No, what? What are you all your life that you can't even look in a fucking mirror or talk to people and say, I did a lot of harm, I did a lot of things, but that's me, that's behind me. It's not me now, I'm behind me, and you can't go forward. Who?

But you're saying, he can't go forward. In other words, he wants to be able to live his, he lived his life, he lived his legacy. He's almost 100 years old. He knows he's a short period of time. period of time. So what is he supposed to say? I'm abnormal my whole life? No, I don't know where you're coming from.

What he's supposed to say is, okay, after maybe three violations and the fact that he can't meet anybody, he went back five times for association. So wait, wait, wait, wait, your wife right now can't stand you because she blames you for everything that went wrong in her life because she's been without you for 33 years. Your son's a drug addict, your daughter died

of an overdose of drugs, Your younger sister, your younger daughter, rather, died of cancer, and she was a basket case. Your two other sisters, daughters, don't talk to you, okay? So why don't you just say, let me leave that behind, and let me try to take care of my family. And, and it's all that thing that happened, all those people, all that thing, that's his fault. Well, who should, who should take responsibility? I'm asked for it. It's all his, it's all his fault.

You know what, Sammy? You have to take responsibility. You're the man of the house, and that's your family. You brought these kids into the world. Put that needle in your brothers off. No, that's not the point. But you weren't a father anymore. You brought kids into the world

and you want your own separate way and you could have got out of it because my dad got out of jail each time in time to save this family. Boating for flight 246 to Toronto is delayed 50 minutes. Ugh, what? Sounds like Ojo time. Play Ojo? Great idea.

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There's always somebody there. Your brother testified against him. More wire against him. You want to ask him? I'm not going to put the boy. My brother. I hadn't seen my brother in 14 years. I just saw him at my birthday party last week. My brother couldn't stand my father. Couldn't stand my mother. I couldn't stand my brother for testifying against my father,

but after speaking to him for the first time of 14 years, I said, you know, Michael, you're wrong. I'm not saying he should have testified. I said, John, that you shouldn't have done that. But I understand what happened to you. I was in that house. I saw what happened. You have no idea what went on in our house.

And I'm, you may have the same thing. I have an idea that happens in a lot of different houses. Okay, but when you're the man in the house and you take responsibility for that. You were a wire against me. Came in and wore a wire. My brother was a junkie. You know what the hell he was doing? That's what I'm saying, but in your eyes, which you were explained,

most of this is your father's fault. A lot of it is money. You got to take responsibility for your family, Sammy, that comes first. You bring it, you marry somebody. You bring kids into this world. That's not your first. You mean to tell me, Cousin Oster comes before that? No, that's why it's not to me.

No, no, no, no. Yes, it did. That's what... It did at that point. That's right. That's not normal. And it did for my father his whole life until he died at 103. His whole life, so his family went to hell.

I don't know how I got out. I don't even know. I can't even explain myself. I'm the only one that managed to get out of that mess. I don't know why. That's maybe why I believe in God, because he had a different plan and a purpose for me. It's been obvious over the past. past 25 years because I don't know why I am where I am other than that. That's my explanation.

People can knock me to, listen, let me tell you something. You're a Christian, you're going to get knocked all the time. It's normal. Jesus told us that. It's not a big deal. We're going to take the way. You're a Jew. Same thing. You're going to get knocked all the time. We understand that. That's okay. But you cannot tell me, and I love my, I love my father. I lived for that man until he died. I love my dad. But he was wrong, Sammy. You don't destroy your own. You don't allow your family to be destroyed because you took an oath

and you want to go down and die with your boots on and say, Sonny Francis never opened his mouth. Okay, great. Now let's go look at his family. It's wrong, Sammy. It's wrong. I don't know. I really don't know.

I don't know why you wouldn't agree with me at that point. Well, I'll say the truth. I hope my daughter and my son don't. that they hate me because I don't hate I just said I love my father I don't I love my father that don't sound like love to me bro no they don't sound like love Sammy you hold people accountable whether you love them or not I love my brother I don't agree with him being a drug addict I love my sister's back in your house and forth the after that's right it's my brother I don't care what he did at this point my brother's my family's my blood I don't care what he did

and he had maybe he had a reason you had a reason for what you did Yeah. Okay. So? Should your family hate you for what you did? It's wiring up... Sammy, don't compare what my brother was a junkie brugger. Don't compare what my brother did to what you did.

So don't bring him in the mix. Why not? We're having a discussion. I'm telling you... But you can't turn around and say he was a junkie. He was. So if I'm a junkie, everything's cool? No.

I just said I... You were wrong with what you did, John. I could admit that. I was wrong. with what I did. But for some reason, you want to justify it. There is no justification for any. There's no justification for any of this.

Nothing. All we try to do is make ourselves feel, oh, I had a reason for doing this. I had a reason for doing that. I could say the same thing. Oh, I got into that life to help my father, which I did. So what?

You got into a bad life. You took an oath. You weren't a drug addict. You knew exactly what you were doing. I knew exactly what I was doing when I said, if I need to kill somebody, I'll do it, even if I don't know him. That's not normal, sin.

me, and I'll take responsibility for that, okay? What do you take responsibility for who? For what? What do you mean you're going to take responsibility for that? Sammy, let me tell you something. I defrauded the government at a tax on every gallon of gasoline, hundreds of millions of dollars. I took a plea, I went to prison. I took responsibility for it.

All right, that's taking responsibility. What am I supposed to do? What am I supposed to do? I don't know what you're supposed to do. Commit suicide? No, no. No, no, no. I'm not committed suicide. So what are you supposed to do?

You did what you did. You did what you did. You changed your life. You did your life. I'm going whining about what you did. I'm not whining. Don't put that on me. No, what your father did.

That he stood up for him. I have every right. You don't have every right to do that. You don't have a right to die with some sort of legacy of his own. Whatever his stake in was. You don't have a right to throw your family to them. No, you don't. You didn't throw nobody.

Yes, he did. He was concerned he did. And I told you that. I still love my dad. But you've got to be held accountable for what you did in this law. You get 50 years in president, this poor bastard. And he threw this and he did all this thing. Sam, you weren't in my house.

I know what happened. I'm in a lot of houses. You aren't in my house. No, not in your house. Okay, so I know what my father did and what he did. Right across the board, in bed houses all over the country. You weren't in my house. No, Mayor, I wasn't in your house.

Okay. So I know what happened in that house. And I asked my father, I said, Dad, what do you need this for? Family. he's falling apart. I said, you went in jail, nobody gave you two cents. Nobody gave you two cents. If we didn't go break our ass to her money, who gave you a penny? Nobody gave us one quarter. As a matter of fact, when you come out of jail, they broke you. They broke you for standing up. That wasn't embarrassing? It was. My dad, you know what? My dad didn't want to get me mad,

so he said, no, don't worry about it. This life is a wheel. It'll turn around. He gave me all that philosophy, which was true, okay, not to get me upset at the time. But that doesn't mean I don't know what happened. So what are you doing, Dad? Your family's going to hell and you just don't want to be, you want to be known as the most stand-up guy in the world. Great, well, that's his legacy, you know? So at 103 years old, he died. Nobody even went to his funeral. So what did you accomplish? Okay, so they're writing about you now? Your wife couldn't stand you when she died. Your son couldn't care if you died or not. Okay, my sister, they don't have a say in it

because they're already dead. So, I mean, I don't get it. I don't see how we justify that anymore. I'm not justifying it at all. I'm not justified. It's your problem. It's your situation. It's not my problem.

It is reality. It's not my problem. Your reality. There's a lot of people. There's a lot of people who may look at it slightly different. Tell me, let me ask you this. Tell me one person that you know, whose family survived and went on to live a wonderful life.

In the last 30 years, when the government really can't, tell me who? I want to go to Persico, you want to go Colombo, you want to go to Gotti, you want to go out. Tell me anybody. Taddo, there's a hundred guys. Who? There's hundreds of them died of old age, whatever, without going to prison, having done. In the last 40 years, I don't think so, Sammy. No.

If a Sammy, if a Michael, if a Frank, if a Leonetti had your parenting and your upbringing and meaning your parents, your mom and dad, do you think they would have gone straight? Or do you think it's in them to say, no, I'm still going to go do the shortcut. What do you think? It's a little hard to say about the people you don't know. So let me tell you about Michael, because I know Michael the best. There's no doubt that if Michael had the right direction and the right parenting, he'd have been a very successful. legitimate, something important. He's very smart guy, very shrewd guy, in a good way.

Decent guy, respected his father, which is a good thing, except it was a wrong father to respect, right? And I'm going to guess on the others, just what I know of. I think there are a few people that are genetically inherently bad, evil, even. But most people are shaped that way. circumstances. I think I could have gone the other way if my parents kept me in Brooklyn and I was a tough kid. I, as you said, was argumentative. My father taught me how to box, so I wasn't afraid to get into fights. And, I mean, I hope I wouldn't have. I hope

something else would have stopped me, but there's a chance I could have gone to the other direction. So when I prosecuted people, it was always a sense of empathy for them. How about Sammy? Don't know. Don't know. Don't know. Don't know. First few of them were like that. Gotti was a guy who liked killing. There's something sinister and sadistic about John God. You believe that. I know that. It's, A different Sammy today than two and a half years ago, but I still think you, to the core, there's a part of you that feels the only time you cooperated was against John. I think to the core, you believe you stuck to your guns and you relate more to a Sunny than you do to Michael.

Sonny and Michael. I think you don't relate to Michael. I think you relate to Sunny. No, that's not true. I think in your eyes, you defend Lacosa Nostra more than he defends Lacoa Nostra. No, that's not true. You don't think you defended more than he does? I defend it

maybe more than nothing. I don't know. Maybe. Maybe. I look at him as a change man and doing the right thing. I like I don't dislike him. I'm getting like him more and more. But I just can't find it in my heart

to go against people because they broke the law like Sonny. When he believed in something with all his heart and soul, was willing to die with it. I can't strip him of what he felt and what he was and what he wanted in life. Or say he's wrong or he's nuts or anything. I'm not saying he's saying that, but I'm saying that.

So I defend that. I defend people who are in prisons. I did prison. I'm in prisons 22 years. I bumped into so many guys, white guys, black guys, Hispanic guys. that could be out in the street. And they did crimes, left them right. It is so brutal to keep them there.

Frank and LeCassell's 87, I think, or maybe even 88 right now. He's in prison since 1990s, 31 or 32 fucking years. When is enough enough? With judges who begat this obsession. And then they'll get somebody now, nowadays, They got the covert. Well, let's give them a compassion to release. Child molest, rapists, are doing less fucking time than some of these people are doing.

So I can't, it's, the whole system bothers me. And every time I see something like that or I hear something like that, it's bothers the fuck out of me that I want to defend it. It's not so much I want to defend, because of an ultra, beyond words. But I just feel for it. I feel for people, now my father, thank God and my mother, nobody was in my family. There were good, hardworking people. There's politicians who go out and they hurt in all kinds of people.

I don't think people would disagree. Yeah, so I, well... And by the way, I don't think, I don't think anybody says, you know, there's lack of respect for Sonny for not, you know, one. wanted to cooperate. I think it's more personal to him as a son, experiencing that he's emotional, slightly different. Yeah, I never suggest that I wanted to cooperate. I don't, he wouldn't do it. I wouldn't even suggest that. All I'm saying is that, you know, there's a point in time where your loyalty to your family has to mean more. I'm not saying my, I'm sure that he can have he loved his family. Listen, I'm not saying, my dad loved this family. There's no doubt. He loved me,

loved him, he loved, but he didn't do the right thing with his family, that's all I'm saying. But as long as he loved you and he made and made mistakes along the way, maybe he didn't take care of his family like you would have liked him to do or other people would have liked him to do. But I just, I can't find it in my heart

to go against these people who believed in things and I don't know that they did something completely disgusting, like a Roy DeMang. Oh, listen. my dad, I hated the system because even if my dad was a bank robber, 50 years, my dad didn't get sentenced for bank robber, he got sentenced for being Sonny Francis Mafia. That's why he got sentenced to 50 years. It was unheard of at that time.

Absolutely. Unheard of it. But so, and everything you said about the system, I agree with you a thousand percent. Well, that part of the system has always been the case. I mean, you sort of went up in your mafia standing if you went to prison, and you could take it. First of all, it was a sign that you could take it, and you're not going to squeal. Second, it was a sign that you could, I mean, they get to know you in prison. They ran some of the prisons, so that was that they could bond in prison,

and they could develop other kinds of crimes in prison. It was a good time for planning. It's absurd to think of it that way. So in that sense, it was a more sophisticated use of prison than now, where they become like vicious gangs. But it did move them ahead in the succession ranks. What I don't like about now is, first of all, particularly in the last couple of years, we don't punish criminals. I mean, in New York, we have no bail. So 75% of the people that commit crimes getting pretty close to serious crimes.

just go right back out on the street in 12 hours. We find every excuse to parole people early. And that's how you see people with, what was there, a guy with 50 convictions who just banged some woman in the head, knocked her to the ground, and kicked her. What's this guy doing out on the street? When you were getting locked up,

if that Sammy was black, would you have been still doing life today? Or would you have been treated any differently than the way you were treated? I'll tell, I don't know if I would have been treated. I'm Sicilian. I'm considering part black, but I'm going to tell you one thing. I'm surprised you admit that.

Well, you know, I'll tell you something about that way. That movie was, uh, true romance with Christopher walking when he does that whole scene with Yeah, yeah, you're part of society, part, Sicilian, you got some black blood. So, but anyway, I was with a ton of black people. I got 22 years in prisons. They have the worst lawyers, they're broke. The worst investigators you can get. And they're fighting the government.

The government has the best lawyers you can get. Who's their investigators, the FBI? Common sense tells you they're bad. They're going to be victims. They can't beat these people. And when black guys would ask me, say, me, what do you think? Bro, who's your lawyer? Who's your investigators?

And they would tell me, take a plea, and you're not going to win. I didn't even know if they could win or not, but odds are you're going to lose. And odds are you're going to get a very stiff penalty. So I think prison reform should look into those things. We, the Italians, inherited the RICO law. It was made for us. Nobody cared because it was just about Italians. But it's spread.

Now they can now. It went to black organizations, Hispanics. Went to corporate America. Yeah, it went to corporate America. I don't understand how some of these politicians, they don't use that same RICO law against them. The enterprise is the government. You use that along with a few other people.

That's RICO. But they don't use it against that. I was with a lot of guys in prison in the 22 years. Some of them deserve to be there and stay. For the crimes I committed, I deserve a lot longer sentence on my first case than I got. I didn't kill 19 people. I was involved in 19 murders.

There's a little bit of a difference, maybe not much. But as soon as I cooperated, Oh, they love me. I got five years on the first case. Something's wrong with that scenario. 100%. I think Michael talked on an interview. This guy's got 19 murders.

How did they just let them out? They let you out when they want to let you out. They hold you when you want to get held. And black people don't have that influence or that power. Well, most of the time, they have a public defender that tells them take a plea. Right. They don't want to go to trial. They tell you.

take him so you agree with them 100% everything he said 100% and and not he just said it so I'm only repeating the government will give a pass to a guy the 19 murders and they'll lock a guy up but did a drug deal and give him 10 years well John got in it and actually do a drug deal and no I wasn't referring to anybody yeah yeah I got it you know what I mean so the system is so out of whack if the government wants you they'll do anything they'll give you anything And then added to this, you get a good lawyer, sharp law, and you beat the case. What does the government do?

They're so vindictive that they'll go back to Congress and change a law to make it foolproof. So as time goes by, people don't have a chance to even fight a case. Then you'll put on witnesses, they'll put on witnesses on the case. sometimes they're just out and out lying. Over 4,100 convictions, eight, I believe over 100 years that you went through. You sympathize with all the 4,100. You sympathize?

Oh, sure. Some of them, yes. Some of them I can see made terrible mistakes, and you wish you didn't have to do it. I mean, they're not all. I mean, criminals are not one criminal. They're all different human beings. And some of them become criminals for reasons

that you do say, God, for the grace of God, go I. I mean, and some of them become criminals, and you say, well, I'd never be like that. But they're very, very different. And the mafia is exactly that. I mean, from listening to those tapes, you've got people that would otherwise be very normal people

to people that are complete psychopathic maniacs. And Michael's an interesting, my friend sees is an interesting example. You know, they always say a lot of these mafia guys could have really accomplished a lot if they only gone straight. That's half true and half not true. Some of them are a complete morons. But Michael is a guy, you can see it. You can see, well, he hasn't gone far since he's gone.

So that some of it was a product of its times. And a lot of it is exactly what you say, Patrick. It's the influence of the parent. There were mafia guys who wanted to get their families out. Some succeeded, some didn't. In the case of Michael's father, where I would fault him for us, There seems to have been no desire to get Michael out. I could even see if there was a desire to do it.

They attempted to do it, and they didn't succeed. There seems to have been no attempt. But there are mafia families now into another generation. Perfect legitimate people. The system of government that we have today, and to me, in my lifetime, I've never, seen as much corruption, and that's a lot to say. In my 70 years, I've never seen as much corruption so out me open. Yeah. I never seen people that are on tape one day saying one thing,

the next day lying about it, the day after that lying again and getting away with it. Out and out lies that hurt people. Not that you're just lying. They're hurting people. And let me add to that, he's got 70 years. I got another six years over him, and I agree with him. I've never seen anything like it. It's incredible. Would it be fair to say that the government who took out the mob is starting to now act like the mob, going around bullying people because they can't? Unfortunately, I would

say that the FBI in the last couple of years is, I don't recognize it. They really should, if they can have an office that develops these warrants for the FBI and presents it to a judge, they should have another office whose job it is to critically analyze them and point out the things that are missing. You know, go back to what I said before. What is prison?

It's money for people. They even open up private prisons and some heavyweights. Open these prisons, make a ton of money to house us. Do you think they want us out? No. No. Patrick, I spoke in a couple years back on 9-11. I spoke in front of the Senate staff.

A couple of senators were in there and they asked me about prison reform. And I turned to one of them, I don't want to mention his name, but I said, do you care about your constituents? He said, of course I do. In your community. Of course I do. I said, why would you put people in prison that are around other prisoners, they learn nothing in there, not rehabilitate them, in some cases make them more hardened in there, and then let them come out and go back into the same community, expect them to be. law-abiding citizens. It's a training, right? Yeah. I said, if you cared about your constituents,

you would rehabilitate these people. Because what people don't understand, I think, being in prison is the punishment. You're not supposed to punish people more in prison unless they're unruly, you know, they're endangered in themselves or to somebody else. People like that, some of them just can't be rehabilitated. But for the most part, most people can. In my experience in prison, most people want to do something to do something better when they get out, but we don't believe in I think now I'm just starting to hear about it. What would you propose? How would you do it?

Let people learn trades in there. First of all, they give too much time out in this country. It's ridiculous. We're the only country in the world. They give too much time out. How do you give a guy 300 years? It's ridiculous. How do you give a guy 40, 50 years in prison for,

even for bank robbery? When nobody got killed, nobody got her. He robbed the bank. It's a money crime. Do you know, you're better off today killing somebody than robbing the government or defrauding something? You get more time in the federal system, okay, for fraud than you're doing many state systems for violent crimes.

I'll go one step further, and he's right. Guys who come out of prison don't have two sets, most of them. Some of them have family who will help them. That's great. That's their shot. They don't have any... They're a convicted felon. They don't have any opportunity. They can't become, go to college in certain cases, they can't become doctors, they can't become lawyers, they can't become a fucking dentist.

What do you want this guy to do? And he's maybe, let's say a drug guy, who dealt drugs, who's making 10, 15, $20,000 a week or a month or whatever you want to call it. So you want this guy, you have to do in time, to come out and go flip fucking hamburgers for minimum wage. and you don't think he's going to recommit? There's so many things. Now, they used to be when I was in prison that they taught you how to make clothing and they would give it to the military

or you made jeans. Certain places made certain things, furniture, all kinds of things. And they were getting, I think, it was $3 an hour. That guy shut down because companies on the outside said, we can't compete with those wages. So they shut it down.

It's not about competing with the wage. Give it to the military. Give it to somebody. It's a government helping the government. And you're helping society because now this guy comes out with a trade. The government gives a sweetheart contract to somebody. They make a few bucks and the government overpays. That's what they'd rather do, rather than do it the right way.

The whole system is... But you do believe it can be fixed. You do believe there are things that can be done to be fixed. If somebody had a legitimate... Or is it a business model that they don't want to be fixed? Is it a business model that they don't want to be fixed? want to get away from. Maybe this is a better question to ask. Who doesn't want it to be fixed? The people who are making money on it. Who's making money on it? Politicians. How?

How about the federal unions? How many people they hire and bring in and jobs and in every way shape of it? They make money off it. What does it cost taxpayers to to house one inmate for a year? If it was it 52, some big? Depends how I'm worried. You know, let me give you a more statistic that I heard. a long time ago, okay? I don't know how many people are in prison today. But when I looked at this, I think there was close to two million prisoners in this country. Two and a half now. Two and a half now. All right. Prisons are a branch of the government. Okay, they put people to work. They build more prisons. It's, it's economic. Look, you don't have the smartest people in the world running the

government. They don't think like you. I can make money in a different place. And aside from that, They're making people believe they're smart, they're hard, they're law and order people, they're hard on crime. And they're building these prisons. Me and you are that now, and we have this little scam with the prisons. We both agree Patrick, a pretty smart guy. He don't know, how do they make money? That's how we get off.

He don't even know how to fuck we make money. And he's a smart guy. Because you're thinking of, you're thinking a better way is to make money. Do you think the federal government has your mentality? No. Patrick. I wish they did. We'd have a lot better place, you know, a lot better system in place.

Black Lives Matter says this, Democrats say this, Republicans say this, independents say this. Anybody and everybody that campaign says prison reform. I don't know, a political party that doesn't say prison reform. Every one of them is saying it, so why don't we have it? What do they do it? Because they could say everything, like we said before, they say everything you want to hear that makes sense, but they have no intention of ever doing it. They have no intention.

Here's another thing that Trump destroyed. He destroyed himself. All of these little scams in the government, he was smart enough to know about that. And he tried to fuck with the whole system. And the system ate him up. He tried to expose what they were doing. Fake media.

This, that, you heard him all the time. He got rid of all of the, those things, rules and regulations and stuff. He knew what was wrong with the country. It's a pretty smart guy, he was in business. He knows what was wrong and he attacked it. All of those things are making money for people. And they destroy them.

It's a little bit like what you were saying about all these things where they take something good and they ruin it by doing it too much. Mm-hmm. You know, even certain kinds of crimes at a certain level, if there's a little cheating, nobody minds. All of a sudden, you get it to Madoff, wow, and then you crack down on everything. The last time we let crime go up, which was in the late 60s, murder went over 1,000 for the first time, I think, in 1969.

It didn't go below 1,000 until 1976, which is why if we don't get control of it right now, it's going to get control of us. You're saying to make it even stricter. You're saying we're not the, our punishment right now is not strict enough. You're saying to be even worse than what it is today. That's the solution. We took criminals out of the street. The people who are committing the crimes now are people that when I was mayor

was sitting in jail for four and five years. Now they, now they sit in jail for eight months. I was six and a half years straight in the fucking, And I did a lot of thinking and reading and everything too. They must have did eight billion push-ups. I'm 76, I'm still in good shape, thanks to that. To put that time, I gotta tell you something. I learned through that experience.

We weren't meant to be solo creed. We were meant to be social. And to do that kind of time in solitary, you've got to have a very strong constitution to come out of that. When you're violent in prison, killing people, You're beating people up, and they lose control of you. That's where you go. When I went in prison, I went in there almost immediately.

I didn't even have a fight yet. No, you don't belong at all. It's just like I was in there for administrative detention, whatever that meant. I never even got a shot in prison. But they put me in there for that reason. But it's not easy, Patrick. I don't care who you are. It's not easy to spend that time in solitary.

No, you probably want to say. Oh my God, tell people, listen, go home. I'm going to pay you. Go in your bedroom, television, nice, comfortable bed, close the door for six weeks. Don't come out. Don't do nothing. Let one of your kids or somebody slide some food under your door

so you could eat. You could even stick something through the door, let them wash your clothes and stay in that room for six weeks. See how you feel. Most people can't even do that. Can't do it. Sammy, a lot of people couldn't even stay in her. their own house during COVID.

No, that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. They can't stay in their own house, their own room with some conference. I met a couple of guys when I first got out. A couple of real tough guys, a bike guy. He just got out of the hole. He did eight months at home.

Hey, Sammy, how old are you heard of me? I didn't know him. Wow, he said, I just got out of the hole from eight months. It's a bitch. I said, no, I know. You were in the hole, right? Yeah.

How long were you in the home? Six and a half years. What? How are you even talking to me? How are you still normal? I said, don't bank on it. Maybe I'm not that normal anymore, but I knew they wanted to break me.

There's no reason for me to be in the home. And I just got up and walked. The ADX truck, back and forth. Talk it to myself. They want to break you. That's right. And I'm not going to break. I'm not going to give them that.

Maybe I'll drop that in here, but I'm not going to break. And that kept me home. Coming up on Mafia States of America. I was in prison with Larry Massell. Larry Mags told me we knew that you guys talked, and we knew that John gave you the hit. It would have been a massive shootout if you would have came in on this hit.

But I was taken off of it. When I got out of the car, Jimmy grabbed my arm, and he said, I'm going to tell you something you're not going to like it. And I said, what? Is your father was in there before you this morning, And he, I mean, this evening, and he threw you under the bus. He didn't help you one bit.

But I can tell you, if that night doesn't happen, I would have never walked away from that life. For purple-mounted majestines above a fruited plain America's sweet America is on thee ride out you be better

the proceed to shine in sea yeah oh beautiful for he was blue in liberated

strike pay You may have a country love and the famous of her Mercy, more than life. America's freedom. You may have heard of the sex cult nexium and the famous actress who went to prison for her involvement, Alison Mack. But she's never told her side of the story.

Until now. People assume that I'm like, this pervert. My name is Natalie Robamed. And in my new podcast, I talked to Alison. to try to understand how she went from TV actor to cult member. How do you feel about having been involved in bringing sexual trauma at other people? I don't even know how to answer that question.

Allison After Nexium from CBC's Uncover is available now on Spotify.