PBD Podcast - Neil deGrasse Tyson | PBD Podcast | Ep. 223

Starting point is 00:00:00 Okay, so today's podcast is a special one. become Okay, so today's podcast is a special one. It's with the great Neil de Gras Tyson who has 22 honorary Drids he has received NASA's distinguished public service Metal the organization's highest civilian honor written best selling box has had multiple shows, has worked under presidents administration, done so many different things, the man's lived an incredible life,

Starting point is 00:00:52 and he agreed to come and be a guest on our podcast today, which we appreciate you for making the time. Well, I happen to be driving by. I love it, it was great. It was a long drive you made. In a rocket ship nonetheless. So 22 doctors, is there a story behind that? Actually, well, this spring will be 22.

Starting point is 00:01:08 Okay. In this instant, it's 21. Got it. But, you know, an honorary doctorate, you show up and then they hand it to you. And I've, and there's always this question, it's not real, you know, why do you even, why is it even in a resume? And then I was visiting the head of NASA a few years back. And I told him I was headed off to an honorary degree ceremony later that day. And he said, you're

Starting point is 00:01:32 probably discounting it in some way. I said, yeah, a little bit, right? And he said, no, here's what it is. He said, your actual PhD, the one you earned through many years of graduate school, the one you earn through many years of graduate school, that's the promise that you will one day do something great. But the honorary degree is the evidence you have. Wow, what an explanation. Yeah, that's a great story. But so that changed my perspective. Sure, an honorary degree.

Starting point is 00:02:03 But apart from that, what I want is sympathy from both of you that I sat through 21 graduates. We sympathize with you. Yes, okay. Our deepest sympathies for you. Which one was the best one? Was there one that stuck out? They're on stage and everybody's name

Starting point is 00:02:20 and all the parents had taken pictures and I did that 21 times. Was there anyone that stuck out? Was there a message you heard we said that? That one I still remember. No, there no messages, but I remember at the University of Pennsylvania, that that took place in their stadium. So it was outdoors and it felt festive because of that rather than in just some smaller hall. Very cool. Yeah. So it's a 22 soon to be 20. Yes, number 21 right now. Yeah. How many do you have, man? I'm working on my GED.

Starting point is 00:02:47 He's doing a complete, barely graduate high school at a 1.8 GPA. I started reading first book. I finished cover to cover. I was 21 years old and then I read 2000 Business Book. So for me, my obsession came very late. Okay, that's what I'm saying. So it was, we obsess with precocious children on the assumption

Starting point is 00:03:10 that those, they will become amazing great adults, whereas you just happen to be catching someone in a phase of their life where they read a lot or learn a lot or learn fast. Doesn't mean you can't do exactly that later, and it doesn't mean it's any less valuable to you or to society later. That's a good point.

Starting point is 00:03:27 Don't you think that people should learn more after they graduate school than during school, like throughout the rest of their life? Okay, so you're gonna get me started. I'm gonna get this thing started. Hold me back. Hold me back. So, think about it.

Starting point is 00:03:42 Just think about the, what's actually happening. What graduation day, let's go back to high school, right? You know there were people, if not yourself, on the last day of school. What, sorry. Last day in the spring, last day, you know, before summer. The people say, schools out for summer. School's out forever. Great rocks off. So that's where you're going. With schools out for the. School's out forever.

Starting point is 00:04:05 Great rocks on. So that's where you're going. With schools out for the summer, people cheer. School's out forever, they cheer even more. And we have a rock. So what's that? Alex Cooper saying, yeah, okay. So, and people, you can picture this,

Starting point is 00:04:20 tossing their notes in the air as they descend. Done with learning. Okay. And then I think to myself, oh my gosh. Yeah. We have failed as educators to instill a sense of eternal curiosity within you so that you become a lifelong learner. You will spend many more years of your life not in school than in.

Starting point is 00:04:43 Mm hmm. And if you're glad you're out of school, then your knowledge of the world, your wisdom, your insights have ossified in that moment. And that then becomes your forever perspective on decisions you make in life, yet the world keeps changing. And so the failure, the educational system is, you think and you believe and you feel

Starting point is 00:05:08 that learning is a chore rather than a delight. And that's got to change. Otherwise, what kind of world are we making for? You know, there was a story about two different athletes. I think it was Federer and Tiger. How they became the greatest of all time in their space. Where Tiger was methodical with a disciplinary and mom and dad and was kind of intentional

Starting point is 00:05:29 at two years old, this guy's gonna learn how to golf and military all this stuff. And then Federer was kind of like, he fell in love with the game himself. It just kind of like in organic. Yeah. And it was two different, one enjoyed it more than the other. The way where Federer actually enjoyed the journey

Starting point is 00:05:45 where Tiger created a lot of unnecessary pressures. It's like being an auto-diedec, which is like something you wanna do yourself. So I would also, yes, in addition to that, consider that what is the ceremony of graduation called? It's called what? Graduation. But the thing, the event, it's commencement.

Starting point is 00:06:06 Oh, commencement speech, correct. Yeah, commencement, commencement speech. All right, right. So, commence means to begin. It doesn't mean to end. The beginning of your journey. That, I would say, the beginning of your journey, being a lifelong learner.

Starting point is 00:06:22 And that's what I try to instill in people. As adults, if I'm with you what I try to instill in people. As adults, if I'm with you, I want to celebrate learning new stuff with you every moment we're together. Neil, when I think about, I'm sorry, when I think about, you're not sorry, it's your turn. You want to knock them out of the room.

Starting point is 00:06:37 We brought them in when we realized there's more than an hour, but when I think about teachers in my life that impact in my life, like Miss Sinclair. Before you tell me about her, I will tell you about her and I've never met you or her before today. You think so? Yes. Are you ready?

Starting point is 00:06:54 Go for it. You loved her class, not because she gave good exams or because the homework was enlightening. You loved her class because she was passionate about the subject she was teaching. Am I right or wrong? No question about it. She was a major in the army. So I joined the army. Okay. And you know, yes, I'm having a conversation. One of our guys on my house. We're doing it weekly. Kick your ass. She was fat. By the way, she was four 10. She was four 10. No joke. She was four 10. Well, today were pen pals, huh? She was health and guidance. Yeah. So till today, want back and surprised her now we're friends every time she dates somebody should introduce them to me

Starting point is 00:07:28 I'm playing a different role in our life today than I did before but it's more family very very different kind of a relationship No longer the same thing. None of that, you know, just a very good relationship together But question question for you is how much of a person being good in a subject has to do with interest that the individual has versus the teacher that has a way of teaching that gets interest, gets excitement. Like when I listen to you talk, I get excited because you're excited about a topic, right?

Starting point is 00:07:58 How much of it has to do? I'm interested in math. How much has to do most math teacher suck? Do you know what I'm saying? I mean, because you know, sometimes I hate math. The question I was gonna ask is, you're such a math guy that could any of teacher inspired you to learn about math.

Starting point is 00:08:15 So I have several ways to approach this. So I tweeted once that was needlessly controversial. I think people didn't pause and think deeply enough about what I posted. because I put way more thought into a tweet than most people put into the reaction to it. And so that creates a, sometimes ships are sailing in the night. My comment was, students who get straight A's do so,

Starting point is 00:08:42 not because of good teachers, but in spite of bad teachers. And what that means is, if you get straight A's, that meant you got straight A's even when you had bad teachers. That's what straight A's means. So the quality of the teacher was irrelevant to your performance. So you're an independent learner at that point. Then there are people who get bad grades everywhere. So good teachers didn't make any difference to them.

Starting point is 00:09:13 So they're bad students. But for most people, a good teacher enables them to do better and a bad teacher they don't do as well. That's for most people. And so all I'm saying is we need good teachers and bad teachers, this should be a way to filter them out. Fire them.

Starting point is 00:09:33 No, really though, because the ten, are you with the ten-year system? We all know who the bad teachers are. Everybody knows. Why do we keep them though? Because we need a way to make that measurement and it's difficult without worrying about some kind of bias. I would say two years later, students assess

Starting point is 00:09:50 who their worst teacher was. That way their grade is not dependent. And they're out and they're not, they got nothing invested anymore in it. And then let that sit on their record. That'll filter teachers immediately. I think great teachers are underpaid. I think average teachers are getting paid

Starting point is 00:10:08 with their getting paid and I think bad teachers need to be filtered out and get fired. Unfortunately, the system doesn't allow forward right now. Right, so that would need to be modified, first of all. But second, getting back to your point. Yes, I think they're people who are self-driven and if they do what they love,

Starting point is 00:10:24 they will probably be better at that than anything else that they might be told to do. Can I give you a perspective and you challenge me? I'd love to. No, I don't, if it's objectively verifiable, I won't challenge that. So you know, like the cool, I want to ask that I had a girl in my office,

Starting point is 00:10:39 you know, with one of our guys, his wife is sitting there and she's like, look, I'm not a big fan of rich people i'm like okay tell me why and we're having this guy said did you like math in school she says now i can't stand that so i started asking democrats and republicans both questions are you math person

Starting point is 00:10:59 are you a science person are you and uh... p are you more what are you and one of the things i noticed is a lot of guys on the right were math people, a lot of the guys on the left were more science, more journalism, more creative, more art is where they were at. So do you think a part of like what you're saying is there are those are gonna get good grades

Starting point is 00:11:21 no matter who the teacher is, there are those are gonna get bad grades no matter who the teacher is. And then there are those in the middle like an independent that's open to being, you know, persuaded to get better in math or science if the teacher's a good teacher. Right, so what's the question? The question is, does somebody,

Starting point is 00:11:35 are there those that no matter what you give them a great teacher or a bad teacher, they're gonna get bad grades? Okay. And no matter if you give them a good teacher or bad, they're gonna get great grades. Okay, I have another response to that. Please.

Starting point is 00:11:45 And another controversial tweet which really shouldn't have been, all right? The tweet was, how often do we hear teachers say the students just don't want to learn, when that teacher should really be saying, I suck at my job. As an educator, it is my duty to figure out what key works in your ability to learn. And if I don't, am I going to run around and blame you or going to say to myself, I was too lazy to put in the extra effort to figure it out. So I operate on the principle that if I'm not succeeding in the first few moments of my encounter with you, it's my duty and obligation as an educator to figure out what you care about so that I can teach you things in a way that matters to you and that you can continue in life, continuing, you

Starting point is 00:12:35 can continue in life with a level of curiosity that by the way, as children, we're all curious. As adults, it's been beaten out of us, or it's a flame has dimmed. And so what I want to do is fan those embers, reignite them in your adulthood so that you can have this childhood curiosity about things you don't know that we all once had. How much of that analogy is essentially the scientific method that you're applying to teachers. Meaning like, hey, you're going through this science project. All right, cool, didn't work. Let's keep going again. Let's keep trying again. I have a hypothesis. Let's figure it out. And that sounds very similar. It's never unlike what many people think. It's never

Starting point is 00:13:23 really about the answer. Because at some point, you want to learn to love the questions themselves. Because the questions are the seeds of curiosity. Questions are, I wonder, and I don't know. So parents who have kids, I don't know if you guys have kids. If you have kids, they could say, Mommy, daddy, what's this? What's that?

Starting point is 00:13:42 Or mommy, mommy, what's that? What's that? Right,, Mommy, what's that? What's that? Whatever is the modern blended family? And so the parent then gets the answer or doesn't have the answer, they find it. Okay, maybe your reply should be, I don't know, let's figure it out. And it's the figuring out of the answer

Starting point is 00:14:01 that's deep within what a scientist does. Who said the stain would problems longer? Is that an Einstein quote? Somebody said genius is stained with the problems longer, where you're not giving up right before it gets hard. Somebody says stain would problems longer. I don't know who that might have been, but that I'm all with it. I'm all in on that.

Starting point is 00:14:19 So Neil, so this is your world. But what else genius is? Genius is seeing what everyone else has seen, but thinking, what no one else has thought. Seen what everyone else has seen, but thinking what nobody else has thought. That's correct. And so those thought pathways are empowered by your life experience.

Starting point is 00:14:37 How many different ways have you seen problems or moments or incidences or people, places, things so that now we all see the same thing but I will make a connection that maybe you don't or moments or incidences or people, places, things. So that now we all see the same thing, but I will make a connection that maybe you don't, because I have the capacity to make these connections within my mind. And so that's very important.

Starting point is 00:14:55 So I'm a big promoter of just a person's total life experience for you to draw upon for every next thought you might have. No, no, is there genius also for, Bobo, that's a quote about Einstein. I'm not that, it's not that I'm so smart. It's just that I stay with prams longer, that's a powerful quote. But is genius also, by the way, he really was smart.

Starting point is 00:15:17 No, he really was. By the way, a lot of people call you the modern day Einstein. No, no, no, no. I'm saying, maybe not yourself, but other people call you. No, no, no, no. I'm saying, maybe not yourself, but other people call you. No, no, no, no. And the one thing that I want to know if it's mandatory as well,

Starting point is 00:15:30 is it mandatory for somebody to be genius to be recognized as a sexiest astrophysicist alive by people magazine and have the voice that you have. You got like this coast 103.5. Hey, so color, who would you like to dedicate the song to? You know what I hear at the love hour with no the grass I was the voice is playing all your best heads out there. Oh, yeah I'm I'm spinning all your fingers. That doesn't make any sense to have that voice

Starting point is 00:16:02 You got I don't even hear my own voice. Yeah, but we do, and it's a great voice. It's a very wide type of a voice you go, okay. I didn't, what I really wanted when James Hill Jones no longer was the voice for CNN, I wanted to, I wanted to do that. I wanted to, this is CNN. You have it. That was, I totally wanted to jump in there.

Starting point is 00:16:20 But to be, to be real, just to be very clear on this, ultimately what you are doing, not an opinion, I think it's universal fact, you are making science sexy. I said it, but that's kind of what you're doing. Yeah, I would think of it a little differently. I would say, but let me get back to the point about that designation from People magazine just to be clear was 50 pounds ago. Just you know what that means. That was up back in 2000. And so and just to be clear that that issue because every year people

Starting point is 00:16:59 magazine has a sexiest mental life issue. I was in a category, so it's sexy's astrophysicist. I don't know how competitive that category, what, really? Be out, Stephen Hawking, I don't know. Jesus, I, I, I, go, no, is what I'm saying. Sexiest astrophysicist is alive. It's a lot more competitive categories. Yeah, like sexy's action star, sexy is news anchor.

Starting point is 00:17:25 Yeah, there's some hunky news anchors out there. Neil, what about sexy is meteorologist, sexiest model. Yeah. And then sexy is astrophysicist. So the person on the cover, which is transcends category, was Brad Pitt. Which makes sense. It makes sense.

Starting point is 00:17:41 Sexy is man a lot. Man, old 2000. Let's go back to the educational thing. Let's go back to the school system. So with what we have to date, with what we have going on today with our current educational system, one, do you think it produces the best product, two,

Starting point is 00:17:54 if you had influence over changing two, three, four, five things with our current educational, I'm talking purely public, not private because private is different. In the public side, what would you change about our current educational, I'm talking purely public, not private because private is different. In the public side, what would you change about our current educational system? A lot. And one day I'm gonna write a book on that

Starting point is 00:18:11 because I have a lot of ideas in headless stuff. Let's start. Let's start. There's still in the oven. So that literally means they're half-baked at this moment. I'm still working on what ideas I can put forth that are fully supported by evidence, by rational thinking. A lot of people just say what they think is right,

Starting point is 00:18:31 and then it's subject to a lot of comments or criticisms, and I wanna make sure all the tees are crossed. Give us one that you're pretty confident about. Give us one that you would say, if I were to change one thing about our educational system, this is the one that I can confidently speak on. Broadly, and the way I would change the science is another thing, but let me say broadly, I would say that I would deemphasize the value, the educational system places on what grade you got.

Starting point is 00:19:05 And figure out ways to assess or rather to promote or to nurture your enthusiasm for learning. And because of this, what happens? You know what happens? There are people who get high grades. These are the people who pay attention in class and all their homeworks are handed in on time and they might become valedictorian.

Starting point is 00:19:30 And however, if you look at the biggest shakers and movers in society, in practically any field, none of them were valedictorians. The most, if you've read a lot of business, but you know CEOs were never the top of their know CEOs were never at the top of their class, or entrepreneurs were never at the top of their class. They're too distracted by other thoughts and ideas. And look at Richard Branson, who his headmaster said, you'll either be in prison or be a millionaire. That's right. The end of a billionaire. That's right. Because he was not following these educational rules about what would enable a teacher to judge

Starting point is 00:20:06 that you will go far. My grades in school were pretty average because they were average, no teacher at any time in my life, K through 12, 16 and 20. Would have ever said, see that guy Tyson? Watch him, he'll go far. None of them. Even though I was all into the universe. No one said that.

Starting point is 00:20:32 No one would have said that, had you asked? Had you walked into the classroom and I'm in the class, and asked the teacher, who's gonna go far in this class? I would have never shown up on there with... I love it, any teacher. Yet, it's not like I was a late bloomer. I've known I was interested in the universe since I was nine.

Starting point is 00:20:49 And at age 11, you asked me what I want to be when I grow up, that annoying question adults always ask it. I said, I want to be an astrophysicist. And I was in the astronomy club. And I walked dogs and used that money, walked other people's dogs. Used that money to buy my first telescope. At age, my first time, at age 14, and I had cameras.

Starting point is 00:21:07 I had a dark room. Who knows what a dark room is anymore. But that's why I produced all my photography. All this was going on and it doesn't show up on a grade in my school. And so the teacher doesn't see that. They don't know it. They don't even care. They just care what grades you got.

Starting point is 00:21:24 And so here I am growing myself and had this whole library, a book, my parents would buy remainedered books, they cost 50 cents, they didn't know any science, but if they saw science book or math book, they bought it for either biggest library of any middle schooler there ever was, okay? So all of this is going on. And in high school, I went on an expedition

Starting point is 00:21:44 to Scotland to view the stone monuments that are similar to Stonehenge But many are not charted and I was an expedition to chart them I was the local I was the astronomer brought in with archaeologists and anthropologists all this is happening I Spent a summer in an astronomy camp living nocturnally in the desert, in the Mojave Desert, while I was in high school. None of that shows up as a grade. And what I'm saying is,

Starting point is 00:22:11 a person is so much more than the numerics of their GPA. That if you only focus on a GPA, you will lose people. There'll be people who will go unrecognized unsupported Unidentified in the school system. How do we grade the other part though? How do we grade that's that's the challenge? I don't know how you would now try to encode ambition or Drive these are some more passion especially these are a little more abstract. And maybe the school, rather than judging you whether you have passion, they should find ways to instill passion within you. And then you're graded by how much more passion you had after the class than you did before,

Starting point is 00:22:58 rather than how much you walked in there with. Well, let me ask you this. So here's the other question. So for me, having ran a sales organization for 20 some years, I'll see somebody come in and I used to say, man, that guy's a great talker. He's going to do great in sales one month later. He quits and he goes to the next and the next and you'll see another guy like, man, my, my, my, my enjoy. That just means you suck at evaluating, but, but, but I did. You're right. But, but, but, but, but're right, but but but you're right. No, I'm just no, but you but but Neil the post trying to clown you But he's like no, you're right. I agree with you as a as a newer sales leader I did then when I learned we build a 40,000 insurance agency company nationwide and I'm the founder of it

Starting point is 00:23:36 So I learn how to lock on to the right people here's a question for you. So what should be the key indicator Maybe two or three indicators to say, this 16-year-old kid, this 14-year-old kid, this 17-year-old kid, could one day do something very big in their lives or is it too early to tell? You could surely be too early to tell, because why you always want to present opportunities to people throughout their lives, to see if they'll jump on them, modify them, make them fit their lives to see if they'll jump on them, modify them, make them fit their lives. All I will say is, when assessing the promise and performance of a student, you need to look

Starting point is 00:24:12 at more than their GPA. I don't mind standardized exams. I don't mind. You want to give somebody an IQ test? I don't have a problem with any test, but the moment you administer a test and then use that against the person because they didn't score high enough on this test above some threshold that you have a cut off and only then do you give them opportunities.

Starting point is 00:24:33 This is using educational systems and tools against the progress of students rather than for them. When I was in sixth grade, there was still contained in an elementary school. I was not in what they called the smartest class because they were identified by the system and they took French. They took a foreign language and I said, well, why can't I take a foreign? Well, you don't belong in that class. You got to go in the second class and they would give in opportunities that I really wanted to have.

Starting point is 00:25:07 And I was denied it because some educational construct declared that I was unworthy of it. And so that I've been thinking about that ever since because I was already ambitious as a kid. I don't, this isn't a pushback, but it's like Pat was a 1.8 GPA student. But, and your subject was math, right? Like, if you could have just dedicated all your time to math. I would do math with you, made me do it or not. I don't know what kind of grades you got.

Starting point is 00:25:37 Sometimes, something tells me you did okay, but just, I gotta make sure of A's B's and C, which average to be. I guess my point is like, but it all worked out okay. Meaning like you're the most famous ashrow businesses in the world. It worked out. That was adorable.

Starting point is 00:25:50 Everything else. He's amazing at business math. It worked out. I was always like an actor, Thesbian. Here I am. So it worked out. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no in there, you are standing up after you've been knocked down multiple times. That's not just it worked out.

Starting point is 00:26:11 That's where your drive is, your grit, your ambition, your capacity to recover from any forces operating against your, you're all of this. So it's not just it worked out. I am where I am not because of my educational path, creating against your, all of this. So it's not just it worked out. I am not because of my educational path, but in spite of it is my point.

Starting point is 00:26:30 So you're saying the school system should have done, should do a better job identifying what you're super, super, super passionate about and let you double down on that versus use those classes. No, no, that's being more specific than I'm prepared to land at this moment. But what a school should say is, don't reserve all your highest praises for the people who get the highest grades.

Starting point is 00:26:52 Do some other searching in the total life of the person. Suppose there's someone who is in middle school or high school, who's taking care of their younger kid, babysitting, walking dogs, doing this, shopping, and figured out a way to make that efficient and create it a budget for the family because they couldn't figure that, look what that is, oh my gosh, the person is figuring out life and no one was there to train them, that's ambition. That's, some of it is the necessities, the mother of invention or in order to survive you got to be get clever. But these are tests of us throughout our lives. If you're a deadbeat sitting at home watching TV and you don't have good grades, I got nothing for you at that point.

Starting point is 00:27:40 But take a look at the total package because in life, the total package is what's going to matter. Okay, so let me ask you a question. I've teach, I've teach your cup, this is going to show up in this education book. I've teach your comment, I still have my report cards. Neil is should, less social involvement and more academic diligence is in order. What they're saying is, my social energy, my social energy was a negative in that classroom. By the way, I wasn't purposefully disruptive. It was more a gurgling of energy, you know, okay, that was a negative. And meaning

Starting point is 00:28:16 you would socialize with their students, you were talking to your energy. I pass notes and things. Yeah, that was bad. Rather than saying there could be some value to this later on. He might become a communicator because he's communicating with all these people at all these different times. No one is thinking that.

Starting point is 00:28:31 All they can see is the grade in their class. That's why none of the teachers would have said, look at him, he'll go far. Neal, in your class, by the way, I asked this question about two months ago and it was incredible hearing the answer, what does the valedictorian of your high school do for work today?

Starting point is 00:28:46 Did they meet and exceed the expectation? If I tell you, 95% of the responses was no. Yeah, of course. It was all no, no, no, it was such a, but going back to. By the way, that's not true for my valedictorian, but who was yours? What did he do? What did he or she do?

Starting point is 00:29:00 He co-founded Regeneron. Okay, that's it. The BioMed company? Okay, that's it. The BioMed Company? Yeah, the BioMed Company. He was my, the Victorian my year, from the Bronx High School. That is insane. What year?

Starting point is 00:29:12 What number did you finish? This is the Bronx High School of Science. They were about 700 graduates. They don't number it below 10, but I was probably 300, 350. Got it. Who else was very successful in your school? Outside of him. He and I have our names on the school wall.

Starting point is 00:29:32 I have to think about it. Okay, so then that means you would... So did you see any signs of genius or something different about him where you said this guy could do something in his life or no? At the time? Yeah. He was very ambitious. I mean, he did science fair projects, him where you said this guy could do something in his life or no. At the time? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:29:45 He was very ambitious. I mean, he did science fair projects, which again are extra curricular additional on top of the grade for the thing. And here's something interesting he did, because he competed, I think if I remember correctly, competed in the famous Westinghouse Science Challenge search and did very well in that, when he became re-general that science talent should have changed very well in that when he became Regeneron, that science talent shirt has changed, quote, ownership over the years, and now there's the Regeneron prize out of the monies that they have invested in it.

Starting point is 00:30:16 So that, so I'm just saying, if you're just looking at grades, that's the person who is trying to impress you. Here's the measure. I got it for you. Ready? If you got a 97 on your exam instead of 100, are you going to complain to your teacher? Are you going to complain if it's like hand graded and are you going to complain? He's okay, it's 97, just as good as 100. I don't care. If you're going to complain, that means you're after the grade more than you're after learning.

Starting point is 00:30:56 And at some level, value of the Koreans are after the grades. And that if asked anyone who's 30 and older in this world, when was the last time someone wanted to know your GPA? They won't even be able to remember. It never comes up at work. Are you honest? Are you moral? Are you a hard worker? Do you solve problems? Whole sets of qualifications that are not encoded in your GPA? Or SAT score or AC score, anything like that. Same difference. So how important are extra curricular activities? Meaning like you might have gotten to be an obese student, but you're captain of the debate team, or you're on the football team, or the wrestling team.

Starting point is 00:31:32 Captain of my wrestling team. Oh, were you really? Yeah. And undefeated, by the way, in high school. What? But the high school is right there. The high school is not in Iowa. OK, just to be clear.

Starting point is 00:31:41 Yeah. There are places where people were wrestling as a religion, and I was undefeated in a place where wrestling is not a religion. So, so, so, going back. So I had these extra things. That was my, that's my rest of my life. I did fun thing.

Starting point is 00:31:53 I did things that, that's not only were activities, there were activities that further grew my knowledge and awareness of fields. So, so I, I interviewed a guy named Billy Bean. I bought him three times. And if you've seen a movie Moneyball with your friend Brad Pitt, who was, yeah, me and Brad. Hey, sexiest man alive in 2000.

Starting point is 00:32:16 You guys are in the same spectrum. We do share magazine. So I brought him on board and I said, hey, Billy, this guy was supposed to be the greatest prospect in baseball the year he came out. Literally, that's a story. He comes out, they're like, hey, Billy, this guy was supposed to be the greatest prospect in baseball the year he came out. Literally, that's a story. He comes out, they're like, number one pick, this guy's going to crush it, he's going to be it.

Starting point is 00:32:31 Biggest flop. And he's telling his own story. And I said, so what are the indicators in baseball? Because they were able to figure out what stat was the most important, which was on base percentage. But then he said, by the way, I think baseball has become over-statisticified. That's another conversation. Yeah, it's probably because of him, by the way, I think baseball has become over statisticified and that's another conversation Yeah, it's probably because of him by the way well, yeah Maybe it was had some tap roots there, but baseball you know has always been about statistics big time

Starting point is 00:32:52 The super strict and they're trying to move against it by preventing the shift in the outfielder the infant What he's trying to say is maybe it's making a little bit boring because you know the pictures are pitching our pitching Two innings and the next got a very weird amount of Tampa Bayes. Anyway, I don't want to go to baseball, but I want to stay on this with the foot if you wanted to. I'm sure you could handle it. I got total. Okay, but go on.

Starting point is 00:33:15 Maybe we could have questions. I think if you get if you get hit by the pitch on ball four, you should go to second base. Interesting. So not just to walk because it was intentional. What sacrifice at the pitcher take anyway? No, no, no, no, I'm saying you would go to first base on ball four. You would go to first base if you were hit by a pitch. I actually like that idea. If you're hit by a pitch on ball four, you should go to second. I actually like that idea. I have a lot of thoughts like that. I actually

Starting point is 00:33:38 like that idea a lot. Yeah. Yeah. So what he said is he said four things. Character like upbringing, actual body, attitude, discipline, so what he said is he said four things character like upbringing actual body Attitude discipline and then it was a whole different thing that he had there So and then that's how they judge whether they should invest in this guy or not recruit him or not You know, I ask you earlier indicators Would you be able to give a couple indicators to say here could be some indicators of like hey this kid's extremely curious That's one of seven indicators of success, hey, this kid's extremely curious. That's one of seven indicators of success.

Starting point is 00:34:07 What are some things you would say? Okay, so what I would say to get mathematical on you, why don't we think of each of these features of a person as dimensions of a hypercube? Okay. Oh, you pulling out your notes here? Yeah, taking notes. I'm really both going to write down what a hypercube.

Starting point is 00:34:23 Okay, so we can start. What is the measure of a line? Well, it's just its length and there's no other metric. Most measures we have of people are just this one dimensional thing. Are you higher on that or are you lower on that? Any exam is a one dimensional measure of people who take the exam. Let's add another coordinate, so that's an x-axis.

Starting point is 00:34:44 Let's add a y-axis. And now the measure of two lines is a square. There's no such thing as the length of two perpendicular lines. But what the two particular lines do is trace out an area, which would be the area of a square. So now we can say, let's say there are two things about you. How good are your grades and how sociable are you?

Starting point is 00:35:09 Those are otherwise not correlated. So now I can calculate an area for you. All right? Well, maybe some other things matter. But maybe some other things. How about ambition? That would be a third coordinate. Now I'm not measuring

Starting point is 00:35:25 your length or your area, I'm measuring your volume. And now let's add a fourth coordinate. So it's what we have. What do we have? We had linear, linear your grades, your social skills, your ambition. And how about, here's one, which wouldn't necessarily be the other three, your capacity to recover from failure. Okay? So now I have four dimensions. This is going to go higher, but I have four dimensions. What's the, quote, hyper volume of the four dimensions? You multiply all four of those measures and then you have a volume. And I would say that the success of somebody is not where they are on any one dimensional

Starting point is 00:36:09 scale, to where they are in this hyper volume. And they could be less on one and more on another, but all that volume is a dynamic place. And what you'd want to do is maximize that volume before you hire somebody. It would be a hyper volume. I love that. what I'm gonna do is maximize that volume before you hire somebody. It would be a hyper volume. I love that. By the way, you can choose your mate the same way. Are they good looking?

Starting point is 00:36:31 Does it matter? Okay, but if you only choose them only because they're good looking and then one day they get older and less good looking, that means you're gonna love them less. Yes, it will mean that if that's the only reason why you got together. Which happens many times.

Starting point is 00:36:43 It happens many times. Okay, do you want them also for their money? It sounds shallow, but that's not any more shallow than liking someone for their beauty. Sure. This is another thing. So might they one day lose their money? That's possible. Unless it's deep family money. But okay, and how about are they have a sense of humor? Are they ambitious? There's a volume. And then you can put everybody and scale it from zero to ten on each of those, right? Multiply it out. You have a volume.

Starting point is 00:37:10 Now you can take all your your mates that the potential mates scale in this way and what happens is because you're multiplying this out They end up spreading hugely on a scale and it becomes obvious who the best one is at that point hugely on a scale and it becomes obvious who the best one is at that point. Obvious. We did this when we were looking for a home. We was like, okay, was it affordable? Is it nearby work? Is all the appliances, or early appliances new?

Starting point is 00:37:38 Do you like the neighborhood? These are coordinates. Judged from zero to 10. By the way, if any coordinate is zero, everything drops out because you're multiplying. All right, so if it's zero on any of these coordinates, walk, keep moving. There's nothing there.

Starting point is 00:37:52 Okay, no matter how good anything else looks to you. All right, then give it a one, fine. All right, so there we are. And then you can throw in a category called intangibles. I just, it just feels right to me. That's allowed. Yeah, I'm writing it down. This is allowed.

Starting point is 00:38:08 So let that be an extra coordinate there. Then, okay, multiply it out as you go to each one. That's how we chose the home to buy. My wife and I. And by the way, it's also how I decided that my wife was like the right person for me. I looked at all the coordinates of what I valued in a mate. And we've been married 34 years.

Starting point is 00:38:32 Can I ask you specifically about your wife? How did you judge her? Are you saying obviously first was like, okay, beauty, but like these, I'm literally taking notes you know, I said, no, no, you shouldn't. Go ahead, don't use my microphone. I want to know from your category though. I said, no, you shouldn't. Go ahead. Don't use my words. I want to know from your category though.

Starting point is 00:38:46 My category, am I attracted to her? Yes. You can add things like sex and this sort of thing or are they fun to be with? You can add all of this together. Go on. For me, I valued, is she smart and clever? I'd like that.

Starting point is 00:39:01 So hot and smart. Done. What else? What? I'd like that. So hot and smart. Done. What else? What? Oh, I'm taking notes. My mother grows up. I met her in graduate school. She was getting a PhD in mathematical physics.

Starting point is 00:39:13 What about caring and motherliness? Yeah, so I would care at all about motherliness. But is the person kind? That could be kind. Yeah. Is she kind or compassionate? And so once you do this, there was no one else that came close on the scale

Starting point is 00:39:30 of anyone else I had dated, even historically dated, because you might regret, oh, I should have to could have did it, but I didn't. No, you still didn't. So looking back at that. So for me, it was a mathematical exercise. 35 years later. 34 years.

Starting point is 00:39:43 34 years, sorry, I try to give you the plus one, like Pat, try to give you the one. Plus one at the pre-agre. You dated from when I proposed to her and when she said yes. Because then that's when the decision mattered. And that was probably 36 years. You're hypothesis 34 years ago versus the actuality. What still remains the constant?

Starting point is 00:40:00 Wait, you know what it is now? What remains the constant now? I can see other people. Other women, I see them and I say, yeah, I'm still glad about my decision. Hell yeah, you forgot. It's awesome, right, I'm still glad. Nothing's worse than buyers' remorse. But buyers' remorse, exactly.

Starting point is 00:40:18 Got it. Yeah. How you feeling this turning out? You would ask a question like that. Well, I think it's so, like I think where we started was, like, what, you know, all these qualifications of a good student, but even it's applying to buying a home, picking a mate, there's all these qualities.

Starting point is 00:40:33 Any decision you need to make that's multi-variable, multi-variant, and you have to make sure that each coordinate is completely independent of the other coordinate. And what I mean by that is, if you're trying to choose your mate, you can't have as two separate categories. She looks hot with clothing on and with clothing off. Those are not two separate categories. Oh shit.

Starting point is 00:41:02 It's a general hot category. It's a general hot category. It's a general hot category. Yes. You don't want to overlap that, because then there's cross contamination of the coordinates and you don't want that. Pat, I don't want to turn this into a sauce cast, but I'm very confident that you did this exact same thing with Jen.

Starting point is 00:41:17 With what? You must have, like Jen was ambitious, she was beautiful, she was a model. It was a worker. That's what I said. I went through 100 and one questions to ask before you get engaged. Second worker. That's what I said. I went through 101 questions to ask before you get engaged.

Starting point is 00:41:25 Second date, that's what I did. That gave me a, we went through six hours later. I'm like, okay, I know, and I went through that and I said, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, it's four other people. It made you interview her. Well, on the second date, I went to board a son, I bought the book.

Starting point is 00:41:38 Yeah, we had known each other for five years. Okay, it sounds like an interview. If you're asking her, it is. I don't disagree, I think it is. And I answered mine as well. And one of the ones is if you say you have no baggage, you bring to the table, run, because that person's lying to you. Everybody's got something they bring to it.

Starting point is 00:41:51 I thought it was a very good exercise, that book right there. By the way, nine years after I read the book, I interviewed the guy, it's seven years that I interviewed the guy, just because I was curious with the questions. Let's transition to another topic. I got a couple of minutes. Speaking of the honesty part, in the film, the big short, one of my favorite lines ever was who's the guy who was the slightly autistic guy?

Starting point is 00:42:15 Christian Michael Burry. His character and Sam all the time here. His character he was describing the response of someone on a dating app to what he posted. Okay. And the person said, I, yes, I want to date you. And well, what did he put in the dating app? He said, well, I have a glass eye and I'm a little, I'm not entirely socialized. And I do, and I'm, you know, but I'm caring. And I, but I'm, I'm, you know, but I'm caring and I, but I'm, you know,

Starting point is 00:42:46 there's all these like negative things about him. And the person wrote in and said, you're exactly who I'm looking for. And he said, why? He said, because you're honest. Damn. Powerful. Whoa. Powerful.

Starting point is 00:42:59 By the way, you know, he would be a very, you know, one of the reasons why he doesn't do a lot of interviews. He doesn't do a lot of interviews. That would be a very interesting conversation for, one of the reasons why he doesn't do a lot of interviews. He doesn't do a lot of interviews. That would be a very interesting conversation for the two of you guys to have. I think that would be a fascinating conversation with Michael Burry. But let's transition to a couple of other topics. There's a few topics I want to go through. I assume you had like other stuff.

Starting point is 00:43:16 I have nine topics here. So one is open AI, one is TikTok, one is China, one is, if we got time astrology, one is billionaires, one, and anyway, so let me just pick one for us to get into here right now. So first ones, your opinion, okay, and I'm curious to know what you're going to say to this. Your answer may be very different than what I expected to be. So what is tougher, what is tougher to do and what is more worthier to do in your opinion, okay? I'm in high school, I get out of high school, I'm ambitious, okay?

Starting point is 00:43:55 Is it tougher to be a person who is at the level of intelligence to get 22 honorary doctorates, you know, these awards, et cetera, et cetera, knowing all of these different topics is at the level of intelligence to get 22 honorary doctorates, these awards, et cetera, et cetera, knowing all of these different topics being well read, et cetera. So from zero to that, is it tougher to be a billionaire? Is it tougher to become the best athlete

Starting point is 00:44:17 in the world like a Tom Brady? Is it tougher to make it to the highest level as an actor where you're like a Daniel Day Lewis or at that level type of a person, what's tougher or are all of them independent to the individual? So it's that's a mathematically solvable problem. You ask how many people are at that level? And how many people are trying to be at that level? Divide the two numbers. Interesting. And there you have. So it is tougher to be an MBA star than it is to be a that level divide the two numbers and there you have. So it is tougher to be an MBA star than it is to be a medical professional, a medical doctor. It's tougher. Statistics.

Starting point is 00:44:51 Just statistics. So you can just do here statistics. But that alone should not stop you because what you'd then be saying to yourself is, I have these two routes and I'm more likely to succeed here than there, so I'm not going to go where my true love is, because I will probably not succeed. Well, you've already kind of surrendered, didn't you? And I would say that, you know, I used to wrestle, you know, you don't choose wrestling because it's easy. You choose wrestling because it's hard. Kennedy said that about our space program. We choose to go to the moon, not because it's easy,

Starting point is 00:45:32 but because it's hard. I can tell you this, by trying most hard things, even if you have to take an exit ramp for having tried the hard thing, you are better off than having done something easy. And anytime I ask your advice in school, what class should I take, what should I do? I say, take the hardest possible classes you can.

Starting point is 00:45:54 But then what about my GPA? Here it comes again. What about my GPA? Well, okay, you can take an easy class and get a high GPA that everyone will praise you for for three months after graduation, but then because you took easy classes, everyone else took the same easy class. That's the definition of easy, isn't it?

Starting point is 00:46:14 And so you will not distinguish yourself among others who have been in school. So, but I've had people say, I should know this, I had a 4.0 GPA. No, you should know it because you studied it, not because you had a GPA that had anything to do with it. Okay, you should know it because you cared about it and you knew enough to absorb it and remember it, but apparently you didn't, because you only did it for the exam.

Starting point is 00:46:37 So you're still pedaling your GPA about this. So all I would say is, which would kill us. Is that handsome guy right there. Is that you as a wrestler? What's that all about? Yeah, in high school, college. Dude, you were a beef. This is, I said the sexiest extra physical life with 50 pounds ago.

Starting point is 00:46:57 Yeah, nailed the grass, Tyson. How much did you weigh then? What did you, what did you wrestle at? In that instant, 191 pounds. Oh, you're six, too? Six, two, yeah. You were a monster right there. Those biceps.

Starting point is 00:47:11 Yeah, I just came off the mat and they... And the guy was laying down on the mat and took it so it's up at that angle. Do you talk about this often? Because I've never been to a dress this. That's a chapter long gone. When I was wrestling, I was also danced. When I was wrestling, when I was also danced. When I was doing those things,

Starting point is 00:47:27 no one was publishing my books. What kind of dance in where you're doing? I was a performing member of three different dance companies. But the college troops, not the Bolshoye. By the way, I think he needs to know, as much as you kind of were joking, at one point he considered being an exotic dancer. I think I've read it somehow.

Starting point is 00:47:45 What? Well, because I was in graduate school and there wasn't, you know, paid very much as a teaching assistant. Yeah, yeah. And I thought you were like, you read up on it or not. No, no, no. And so with my fellow dancers from the dance,

Starting point is 00:47:57 look at this guy right here. This group, I was, I was in desperate need of money and I had money and he says, hey, in the evenings we dance at this male dancer review and women put money in your in your in your jog strap. And I so I said, he said, what should come down, take a look. So I went down. This would be a way to make money back then. I was physically fit and I could do a full split.

Starting point is 00:48:23 And I was I was graceful and strong strong and nimble So I totally could have rocked whatever and was necessary for that. I'm thinking so I go there and they come They come out with as best-est-est-line jock straps that had been infused with lighter fluid and ignited and They came out dancing to Jerry Lee Lewis's great balls of fire.

Starting point is 00:48:49 And in that instant, I said, I think I'll be a math tutor. And I'm deeply embarrassed and disappointed with myself that math tutor was not the first thing that came to my head. That I keep your options, oh, considered. So it took people's nuts on fire for me to mind blind. It took me nuts on fire for me to be slapped back into reality. So I tutored math and physics.

Starting point is 00:49:21 I thought you were gonna blow my mind with some astrophysicists. Well, he hasn't asked me about astrophysics yet. Okay, by the way, what was your stage name at the time? No, I didn't have a stage name. I feel like I would have had a great stage name for you. What? What?

Starting point is 00:49:35 The black hole. Oh, yeah, no, yeah, no. No, double on John Jordan right there. It's a better name, right? Yeah. Dark matter. Oh, yeah. Double on Chandra right there with better name, right? Yeah, dark matter Pat this is should be a great segue You talk about

Starting point is 00:49:51 I'm not doing it. I'm not doing you guys dark matter Oh, you got a James Earl Jones. Please help us bring a dark So so what was the point we were making here about what's tougher to do? What's tougher to do you do it because it to do? You do it because it's hard. You don't do it because you know what I saw the other day, your sports guy. I saw a guy making an argument why the goat of goats isn't Brady, it's messy.

Starting point is 00:50:14 And the way the guy broke it down is there's seven billion people fighting to be eight billion people, fighting to be the best soccer player. And it's a world sport and football's only 330 million. You're so, pure numbers. Yeah, he kind of took the angle you were taking. Yeah, definitely. Do you know how many billionaires there's in America?

Starting point is 00:50:28 Do you know the number? At this moment, let me guess. Don't pull it up. I want to see what happens. I like to guess too. Let me guess. Don't pull it up. I want to see what you're going to say as well.

Starting point is 00:50:39 I'm going to say somewhere between one and 200. One and 200, what are you gonna say? I don't know, I'm just thinking, if I do get this right, somehow I'm gonna beat no grass ice in on a smart one. I'm going with, I'm going with, I'm going with, one 95. 195.

Starting point is 00:50:57 So you guys think at a 330 million people, there's only 195 billionaires. Yeah, 200 billionaires. The number is, in the United States. And who you want to? I'm not saying the world. Because I can't believe that, because I've met like six of them, right?

Starting point is 00:51:09 And so... Nice little humble bracket right there. So give him that. Give him that, and I'm in New York City where a lot of billionaires are. Yeah. I'm just extrapolating up. And I'm thinking there might be some states

Starting point is 00:51:20 where no billionaires live. You know, so... Policana, let's see how many it says. The number I think is 740 or 900. What? 740. There you go. In the United States, in the United States, it's a 740. Oh, we were very low.

Starting point is 00:51:32 And they live in 42 out of the 50 states. Okay, it's very wrong. That's very wrong. Yeah, but that number is way higher than even just recently. Right. Well, though, a lot of them lost a lot of money this year. So that's an updated number because a lot of people lost their status. 2022 and 2022, 2022 was not a good year for billionaires. So there's almost a thousand billionaires. Do you think that's a big deal, though? Do you, for you to say a hundred to 200, do you think you said that

Starting point is 00:51:58 because you think it's hard to do or do you think you said that because why would you say a hundred to 200? I'm curious. No, I extrapolated from the six that I know. That's what I got you. There was no deep thought in all. There was gas based on those numbers. Yeah. And I know seven billionaires. So it's just so funny. Well, he's a Miami. He parties with most of them anyway. So a lot of them are here. Okay. But, but you say, let me just push back on you a little, just emotionally push back. Please. If in life your goal is to be a billionaire, what kind of life is that? I think your goal in life should be successful at some thing.

Starting point is 00:52:35 And if that happens to bring a lot of money, then that's great. Because then you'd be happier. And I think life happiness should play an important role. And I don't know how I gotta be a billionaire, otherwise I'm not gonna be happy. And then what will that force you to do? What kind of decisions will you end up making to achieve that goal relative to just trying to be the best

Starting point is 00:52:57 at something that you can? Now maybe if you wanna be the best at making money. Okay, good luck. Okay, but it reminds me of actors. Okay, if people say, I want to be a famous actor. Really? You don't want to be a really good actor. You don't want to be a great actor. You just want to be a famous actor. Why don't you be the best actor you can be and let the fame follow that. Then you'll get the fame organically with you having

Starting point is 00:53:22 been ambitious in your trade. Yeah. the reason why I asked the questions, I got four kids. And we're having a conversation yesterday about football. How old are they? 10, 9, 6, 18 months. 10, 9, 6, 18 months. Yeah, busy dude. I would have 20 more if I could,

Starting point is 00:53:37 but we're shutting it down. So anyways, we're having this conversation about the nine year old yesterday. Did I hear Vesectomy there? He said we're shutting it down. No, nothing. He's a getting one. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:53:48 So it's beautiful life is shutting it down. Yeah, so the whole idea is, if we're going the route of, if we're going the route of, you know, what these kids want to do. The conversation you said it was the youngest son, nine-year-old, wants to play football. My sister's like, well, you know, you sure you wanna put them in football with the stats and all this other stuff. We sat down and went out of conversation with the guy. So listen, with the nine-year-old.

Starting point is 00:54:12 With the nine-year-old, we showed him videos. I know you're down to 20 a.m. Brown. Here's what he said. Here's what this person said. Here's a clip, watch this clip, watch that clip, watch this clip. The kid still wants to play football. There it is. So no matter how much you push him away,

Starting point is 00:54:25 you're not going to be able to force the kid to do what you want him to do. You could, but you may create resentment for him. I would say you don't push him away. You just expose them to inform him. Exactly. And of course, when you're nine, especially your brain is not fully rationalized yet. So I would revisit it every couple of years with your child, but your kid could be the most famous football player there ever was.

Starting point is 00:54:47 And you don't want to be the one who interfered with that. Plus football is slowly getting safer relative to decades ago. Take a look at the hits that Terry Bradshaw took. You look at it's like, why is he still alive? All right, and the laws were put into place since then. So I'm just saying, as a parent, I think your goals should be not to require they study or interested in one thing or another,

Starting point is 00:55:14 but that they're exposed to the joys and the sufferings of whatever it is they might choose to do. And then let them make their own decision. That would ensure that it's a more organically arrived in. I agree. No, we're on the same page with that. choose to do and then let them make their own decision that would ensure that it's a more organically arrived at. I agree. No, we're on the same page with that. I thought you were going to have an argument on why you believe one is tougher to do than

Starting point is 00:55:33 the other, but you took the statistical route, which makes sense. I mean, you can really figure that out based on numbers. Open AI. Open AI is a conversation. I don't know how much you're following, chat GBT or not. In six weeks, these guys have gone from zero in valuation to now being a 29 billion auto company. Never take. In six weeks.

Starting point is 00:55:52 And so in two years, it took Facebook two years to get to million users. It took Instagram two years to get to million users. It took Pinterest five months to get to million users. It took Angry Birds 34 days to get to million users. It took Chat GBT five days to get to million users, it took Angry Birds 34 days to get to million users, it took Chad GBT five days to get to million users, every other hour when you're on Chad GBT, the website shut down because of the amount of activity.

Starting point is 00:56:15 So you haven't used the app yet, right? You haven't looked at it. No, I know about it. The website, yeah. So what are your thoughts about the direction we're going with AI and things like Chad G.B.T. and what else you see this thing going to? I know you've made predictions on the Rogan show

Starting point is 00:56:29 where you said, here's some of the predictions I heard, cancer, what's right about that stuff. Designed to be shown that I would be wrong in 30 years. They were not, here's my crystal ball, it's all gonna happen. Right. In my chapter of the book, I spent pages upon pages showing how people's predictions at the beginning of a 30 year period had no meaning at the end of a 30 year period, going from 1870 to 2020.

Starting point is 00:56:54 And so I said so that you don't think I'm just being mean to other futurists, I will join this exercise so that in 30 years you can tell me how wrong I am. That was how it came out. But I would say that we can be impressed with what AI is doing and we should be. And so I don't have a problem with that. But were you worried what point are you making about this? No, no, because there's the debate right now. I'm very neutral on this.

Starting point is 00:57:21 I love advancement. I love innovation. I'm excited about it. But this morning I'm having my CEO call with our C-sweets and I'm talking to our CTO, who is a guy that's done very well for himself. He's sold companies, he's been part of, companies being acquired by IBM for $700 million. He's done very well.

Starting point is 00:57:37 So I said, so what do you think about this whole concept of Chad GBT? Because the other day, I don't know if you can go to it. See if it's working, the website's working right now or not if Okay, search up a connection is secure or not Proceeding okay, it's down right now. It's it's it's often down, but yesterday not yesterday saturday We're here shooting a video and I said right a 1000-word paper on the Iranian revolution in Donald Trump's voice

Starting point is 00:58:04 Okay, it wrote the paper sure I paper on the Iranian Revolution in Donald Trump's voice. Okay. It wrote the paper. Sure. I said, write a hip-hop song by Tupac on the subject of this. If Tupac was alive today, it wrote the song. Yeah. If this was live right now, what I would want to do

Starting point is 00:58:20 is to ask it, ask any question from ask a unique question of Neil deGrasse Tyson, what would you ask him to show? So this is kind of like the best explanation is you go to a library. Google is, I'd like to read books on the subject of the Big Bang Theory. Here's 273 books.

Starting point is 00:58:40 Versus this one, you go to this library and say, I would like you to write a paper for me in seventh grade level, thousand words on the Big Bang Theory. No problem, 10 seconds, here's your paper. Yeah, yeah, that's what this thing does. So copy writers gone. This can write code, this can write rap songs, this can write lyrics, this can write papers,

Starting point is 00:59:00 this can write anything to the point. Well, I don't think it can write music. Yeah, it can write rhymes. No, no, it can't write notes clear I don't think it can write music yet it can write rhymes No, no, it can't write no, I didn't say notes. I words like if you want to do hip hop or yeah, but we can you do me Favorite go go to UK Education and type in chat GBT. Okay, so is it what's this gonna eliminate? Well, no, no, my but what creative are concerned? What is your concern? Yeah, I'm excited about it I'm not concerned about it.

Starting point is 00:59:25 What are other people's concerns? A lot of people's concern is it's going to replace jobs for copywriters. A lot of Silicon Valley people are like, for example, the story that came out with New York Times, type in New York Times, GBT, and then put code red. New York Times, GBT code red. Okay, so this is a recent article right there.

Starting point is 00:59:42 A new chat about is a code read for Google search business. Okay, a lot of people are talking about how this new wave of chat bot like chat GBT using AI could reinvent or even replace traditional internet search engine. Okay, so what's your point? I'm excited. Okay, that's what they're saying. I think it's exciting.

Starting point is 01:00:01 I would say, yeah, either way. And one time I tweeted this, I said, people who cheat on exams do so because the system values your grade more than the student values learning. Okay, so if we're worried that people will create a paper in whatever, whatever, oh, there it is, thank you. You found it. 2013? Yeah, yeah, no, I've been at this.

Starting point is 01:00:35 I'll be the 10-year anniversary of that thought. Because our school system values grades more than students value learning. That's such a powerful tweet. Yeah, so the point is, why would you cheat at all? Right. If it's only to get a grade so that the school system thinks more highly of you. When being in school is about learning. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:00:57 And so if you have the AI bot, create your papers, you didn't learn a thing. But you got the grade. This is the problem we began with here in this conversation. The value we put on a grade is out of proportion with who and what you actually are and become in life. So, yeah, you can submit papers like that. Fine. But you'll be an idiot at the end of your school. You'll get a degree because you fooled the system, but did you fool yourself? Did you fool your life? No, you didn't. And here's another point. Guessing on an exam? Okay. Yeah, that works sometimes. Okay, because you might be right. But guessing in real life just shows your ignorance

Starting point is 01:01:50 Period if you don't know something say you know, I don't know. I want to go find out I've asked people questions who knows what the third not and they'll say well, let me guess It was no no if you know what are you don't the urge to guess was because of school multiple choice tests If you don't know the answer, then guess. And then maybe you'll be right, and then we'll think highly of you for guessing the right answer. No, no, I'm an educator. I can't let you learn stuff.

Starting point is 01:02:13 And yeah, if the chatbot makes people think you're smart, even though you're not, who benefits from that? I don't know. How much you think that translates into whether it's current events, politics, you know, global affairs where it's like, well, I think this, and we famously interviewed Philip Mud, former CIA, he said, it's not about what you think, it's about what you can prove the facts.

Starting point is 01:02:39 So that everyone has an opinion these days and everyone can tweet their opinion. How does that, how do you grapple that thought process with? I'd like opinions. I have nothing more with opinions provided than not based on objectively false knowledge. Then it's a malformed opinion. And you should think to yourself, if there's something flawed about my opinion,

Starting point is 01:03:01 I should be in a position to change it. And if not, then once again, you've ossified into a point of view and truth doesn't matter to you, and finally go live in a cave somewhere, but that is not the seeds of an informed democracy, or the seeds of a civilization that needs to become better shepherds of its own decisions and its own inventions and its own plight in the future of civilized AI. So, I see AI as a helpful tool when you can otherwise get something done as well as you could.

Starting point is 01:03:35 But not as a replacement for your own learning. I don't see that. You don't think AI will ever replace you. Some tasks of mine for sure. What will it not replace? What will it not replace? What will it not replace? No, no, no. I'm specific replace you. Some tasks of mine for sure. What will it not replace? What will it not replace? What will it not replace? Oh, no, no, no.

Starting point is 01:03:48 I'm specific to you. I'm specifically talking to Neil DeGrasse Tyson. What can you do that AI in the future won't be able to replace? I don't know. Okay. It's possible that AI will replace everything about me. That's entirely possible.

Starting point is 01:04:03 However, however, tomorrow I might go to the Bahamas and meet someone new. The AI didn't do that. That person might give me new insights in my life. That didn't happen to the AI. I will have new thoughts because of that experience than the AI had. So the AI will be frozen with whatever was my last published searchable content on the internet. If I have thoughts that I write down by hand and they're not on the internet, and I have enlightened ideas,

Starting point is 01:04:37 the AI will not be able to track that unless I post it online, which I might then do. Then it'll catch up with me, they're fine. Do you think everything under the sun has been thought of and written about online? No, of course not. Okay, gosh, of course not. Okay, now new ideas are not yet online.

Starting point is 01:04:55 So I'd like to see AI invent new understandings of the laws of physics. I haven't seen that yet. Okay, you know what, that's a good way of a think about it. That makes sense because, meaning human beings working together in a collaborative way invent things, AI hasn't had, hasn't independently yet invented something big. But people who claim that general AI will one day arrive there, and okay, fine, but here's something else I'll show. Sure. On the back of my phone is a section of Van Gogh's The Story Night.

Starting point is 01:05:32 You could tell AI to paint something in the style of Van Gogh of this scene, and they'll do it. But you can't tell AI to be Van Gogh in the first place. Does it need to? Yes. Why? Because that's the style that Van Gogh pioneered. So, you get my point.

Starting point is 01:05:54 So it's not going to be Van Gogh. It can ape the style of Van Gogh because it has data on that. It doesn't have data on something that hasn't happened yet. This painting had not happened before he painted it and his entire style of painting had not really happened. Yes, it's impressionist. But his is distinct. Is the AI going to give me something distinct that no one has happened yet that isn't

Starting point is 01:06:21 aping anybody else's style. Maybe that day will come and maybe we'll praise it, but that we're not there yet. If that day comes, what becomes boring? What becomes useless? What becomes a waste of time? What happens to life? What happens to ambition?

Starting point is 01:06:36 What happens to you? You know what I'm saying? What happens? If AI does everything, then we all go to the beach and then play. What a boring life. No, no, you can still write books. You can still do things.

Starting point is 01:06:46 You never hold it. Is AI going to do this podcast? No, no, AI is not going to be you. It could. Right. So I'm, I don't fear AI. You know, people say it'll become our overlords, you know, and turn us into their pets.

Starting point is 01:07:05 In the mind and body chapter of the book, I comment that if, you know, we treat our pets wildly, I mean our cats and dogs, you will step over a homeless person in the street to go home and feed your pet. Okay, this is what, in America, this is what we do. So if that's the case, then maybe if AI becomes, or some alien intelligence species becomes our overlord

Starting point is 01:07:31 and makes us their pets, maybe they will treat us much better than we treat ourselves. I think a natural question would be what everyone asks is like are robots and computers and technology ever going to replace humans in this they already have They do how many farmers did we need a hundred years ago to produce the crops that they did relative to today You can go your whole life living in a city and never even meet a farmer yet most people in the 1800s Had had a profession that was somewhere involved in the farming or the food production industry.

Starting point is 01:08:09 So, yeah, machines are doing that. Machines are doing the irrigation, talking to satellites that measure this moisture content of soil, knowing when to irrigate. We have machines that do, machines are doing everything. This is not some new weird thing. Yeah, with every next wave, you'll lose some jobs. Yeah, there are no buggy whip manufacturers today. No, there's not. Take a look at a phone.

Starting point is 01:08:33 I did this growing up. The yellow pages. I looked at the yellow page I used to keep them for every five years. You'd look at them. I'm old enough to remember. In 1965, 1970, 1975, 1980, as we entered the 80s, computing companies started showing up,

Starting point is 01:08:50 relative to other companies that were disappearing from the yellow pages. And how many people are employed in IT when that number 40 years ago was zero. So I don't lament the loss of jobs, what you have to be flexible enough to move with the, with the, that, that, that, ascending frontier of science and technology and civilization

Starting point is 01:09:15 and who's getting paid to do what? If you're a parent 20 years ago, the kid says, I wanna be a YouTube influencer. You say, what the hell kid? Kids shut up. Yeah. Get a life kid. Get a life kid. All right, now the kid says, I wanna be a YouTube influencer. You say, what the hell kid? Get a life kid. Get a life kid. All right, now the YouTube influencers

Starting point is 01:09:29 that I'll earn everybody who's walked into this building. Okay, so, and that's a job unthinkable 15 years ago. But it's a job today. So I'm not, I don't lose sleep over any of this. Are you making it? There's a difference, there's a difference because this is, I'll give you this perspective and then you give me the meaning. Wait, you're going to tell me it's different this time.

Starting point is 01:09:52 Is that really, you're going to tell me that really? You're going to say, this time is different. Not at all. Did you read the book, the economics book, this time it's different? No, I have not. I don't think that book. It's not. Every time there's an economic collapse, this one's different's, here's a question for it. It's all the

Starting point is 01:10:08 same. Here's a question for you. Here's a question for you. So let's just say you're the, the, your plane in this playground and Venice Beach basketball, you're the sickest basketball player in Venice Beach. And everybody has to watch you have COVID. This is this this is the rain COVID you're killing. Nobody is there. No, you're playing by your second. Second, I would just trying you have COVID. This is this is during COVID you're killing and nobody is there. No, you're playing by yourself. Second, second, I was just trying to be fun. Oh, we go to COVID right afterwards.

Starting point is 01:10:29 But so, so you're the best basketball player I've in a speech. Everybody comes to watch on Sundays. And girls are like, oh my gosh, you know, Joe, you're great. Da, da, da, da, da, da, and the fantastic. And then all of a sudden, these five guys show up and they play in the NBA. And they show up and you play against them and they embarrass you.

Starting point is 01:10:51 You don't score a single point. They dunk on you. All of a sudden, those same girls that were like, oh my God, Joe, they forgot what your name is. Okay. You're replaced by five guys that can do it better than you So the only thing is about Chad GBT Kenneth replace that Joel who's been fantastic now he is being replaced by AI that he used to be important now

Starting point is 01:11:16 He's just a guy that was very smart and famous 15 years ago. Yeah, so you take on something else stay flexible enough to shift what your job ambitions are in the possibility that you could be replaced by a machine. I have an example. I personally knew a calligrapher who drew the letters in a dictionary, the opening letter, because the dictionary, the opening letter,

Starting point is 01:11:45 because the dictionary you start out, you get to like letter G. Well, the first entry in a dictionary in the G's is the letter G, all right? And so that was a colligory thing. That was hand done for many, many years. And the company said, we need you to make a template of this, okay, which she did, because she was on staff,

Starting point is 01:12:05 she was on payroll, and then they scanned it, and then she was laid off. So, okay, yeah, that's sad, but, you know, I mean, look for other jobs that are arising. There are more jobs, think about it, there's 330 million people in this country. And 20 years ago, there were 200 million. Whatever the numbers were, the point is all these new people who didn't exist back then

Starting point is 01:12:33 have jobs today. The job market has grown. In all kinds of dimensions, in all kinds of ways, be aware of that. That's why you should never take job advice from your parents. Hmm. Why, they're stuck in the old days? They don't have any idea what's coming around. Yeah, in the old days, you could take job advice from them

Starting point is 01:12:53 because things didn't change on a time scale that would matter between high school and college. But right now, it's like getting car advice from your father. You would never do that. They would hear that mom. Yeah What's your colligal friend colligraph? I haven't been what you're doing now. I haven't caught up with her best guess What do you think she's doing? Don't not but she be retired now, but yeah, don't know So are you making the case for or against Andrew Yang's famous UBI? experiment, all right, so UBI is an interesting

Starting point is 01:13:24 Solution to this. If AI is making all the money, then put it into the system. I would say that there might still be things humans figure out to do. That AI doesn't really know how to do yet and has to be trained or get better at it or whatever. So I don't know that U be, it's an intriguing idea. It's completely intriguing. And you know what I think?

Starting point is 01:13:50 AI's can't build the bridge, okay? Or erect a, that's a long time coming before that happens. What I think we should do is, we should redouble, double down on the, on the maintenance and modernization of our infrastructure. Those are actual human jobs, with tractors and maybe AI can build a prefab home with construction

Starting point is 01:14:18 bots. But unique structures that are on a hillside, those are human beings, those are actual construction workers. Is an AI bot gonna come in and fix your plumbing? I don't see that happening yet. But if you do, you gotta give them a butt crack. Do it. We tape it onto the back. Did we not learn during COVID and all the stimulus

Starting point is 01:14:39 and the free money that maybe printing money and free money isn't the best solution for people? Like using UBI as an example Allow me to comment on that. Yes, sir. Feel free. Okay What you're not considering is? Okay, so we have this inflation all right this past years 8% or whatever it would probably be lower this year But still 8% well, yeah, we probably be lower this year, but still 8%. Well, yeah, we were printing money.

Starting point is 01:15:07 And so that there was some inevitability to that. So people who don't like the politics of that argue against that and say, you shouldn't have printed money. What was the fucking alternative? You don't have money and you get kicked out of your home and you don't have a job? Ask yourself. Suppose we didn't do that.

Starting point is 01:15:31 And the entire industry that required people to leave their homes and pay money at a restaurant, at a shopping mall, at every place that required people's presence. They would be out of a job and homeless. Oh, let's do that because that's a better solution than having a little bit of inflation two years after you have a stimulus package. People don't do enough thinking about what other consequences would have taken place had decisions been different. It's not just simply don't do the package,

Starting point is 01:16:09 that way we won't have a little bit of inflation a few years later, that's not really the metric that's going on at that time. Think it through. Now, if you can say, I'd rather not have the inflation and I don't mind millions of people kicked out of their residence homeless with no job. Then that's a decision, as long as it's an informed decision.

Starting point is 01:16:33 You can prefer that, it's a free country. You can prefer that in vote that way. For me, we have the power to print the money, keeping people in a job through the crisis. I think that was one of the wisest decisions, economic decisions that could have been made at the time. I guess that's my opinion. No, and that's perfectly fine. When you say think it through, who would disagree with that? You know how like they do like in South Korea, they, with the help of US forces, they do war games. Okay, well, if China does this and we're going

Starting point is 01:17:03 to do this and they do it, a thousand different ways that's gonna happen. What happened? Yeah, these war games, all these things that happen and then different methodologies, different, why don't they do stuff like that with COVID? It's like, okay, cool. If we're gonna lock down the world and we can't have money,

Starting point is 01:17:18 we don't have jobs and everyone's losing their jobs or we're gonna print money, like, why doesn't the government do something like that in terms of war games? So like the next time COVID happens, it'll probably happen. The problem is, we don't have to print all this money. It was a once in a century. We hope not gone wood.

Starting point is 01:17:33 Well, statistically it was once in a century. The previous one was a hundred. A black swan event. The previous one was a hundred years earlier. And so we went a century without a pandemic. So I don't know that solutions we put into place today would be the solutions we would choose 100 years from now in an next pandemic.

Starting point is 01:17:54 So yes, scenarios are good to explore. Yes, you can ask how much money was pulled out of the stock market when society closed down. That was that V drop that we took. And by the way, the market went back up within 18 months. It was higher than it was the day before it dropped. Six months.

Starting point is 01:18:16 Wasn't that quick. I forgot it was even that quick. Thank you. The V recovery, they call it. Exactly. Are you a fan of debate? No. Tell me why.

Starting point is 01:18:27 Because debate implies that a person, the person who wins a debate is often the person who is more charismatic or is a better communicator. Wow. That typically happens, especially in politics. And if it's a pure matter of opinion, then a person should just simply have their opinion. If it's a matter of objective truths, there should be no debate about it at all.

Starting point is 01:18:58 It's not about debate. It's, here's the evidence. No, let's make the decision. So for me, debating is all about grandstanding and idea, rather than arriving at an actual solution. So to be fair, you should win 100% of debates. No, I don't enter debates. But what I'm saying is, if the argument is a person

Starting point is 01:19:23 who is better at presenting arguments could validate a point better than somebody that you're an incredible. It should not depend on that talent of a person to decide what is or is not true in a debate. Really? No, of course not. Oh my gosh. No, no, I'm really good at saying you know the sky is green now let me debate that with you and I have a charisma and

Starting point is 01:19:50 everyone's votes and they say and I win the debate that doesn't make the sky green well even if I won the debate that's an exaggeration I get what you're saying but I mean if that would have been the case then the last election Biden shouldn't want because he's horrible is made him maybe want to worse on the history of debates on national television. All I'm saying is that often a debate is one on charisma. I don't disagree. More than it is on the contrary enough, that A, B,

Starting point is 01:20:17 if a subject can be objectively analyzed, then it does not benefit from a debate. See, if it's a matter of opinions, who you want to vote for, because you prefer one policy or another, have the debate. Go ahead. That's the only kind of debate I would enter,

Starting point is 01:20:44 but I don't care if anyone else has my opinions. Yeah, I would say. So I'm not gonna try to convince you of my opinions. I got you. Well, opinions one thing, but for example, like Nixon to me and Biden are the same. The moment Nixon had to debate on the national, you know the story.

Starting point is 01:20:57 Yeah, with Kennedy. Yeah, with Kennedy. It was like a bad situation, because Kennedy looked good. He was tan, he slapped all this stuff and... No, he had makeup on. Yeah, makeup on all this stuff and the other. He didn't shape. Anyways, but here's's what I'm kind of going with this.

Starting point is 01:21:07 I don't know. By the way, we forget that that was one of the closest elections in American history. Yeah, that's what anyone watching on TV. I wasn't alive then, but I've studied it. Anyone watching on TV thought that JFK one, but anyone watching on listening on radio, thought Nixon won. Correct. Because your stature. You can get away from it. I don't want to spend some time because that's the topic where I want to go with it. The fact that that happened all tells you

Starting point is 01:21:29 the debate construct is like, what are you doing here? Okay. I mean, that's the American system. When it comes out to that, but there's a part of me that agrees with you. I don't mind debating opinions. Yeah. I'm just not going to do it

Starting point is 01:21:40 because I don't care if anyone else has a way. Okay, so let me ask. I'm not against it. Yeah, I'm just saying, and my school had a really good debate team. Right. I'm embarrassingly old. Am I 30?

Starting point is 01:21:49 At the point I learn that competitive debate teams, it's, when you enter the debate tournament, you do not know in advance what side you're going to argue. And you're handed a side to argue. And I thought to myself, really? Oh my gosh, so you're just a trained arguer. That's what you are. And then these are people become attorneys

Starting point is 01:22:14 and attorneys become the greatest source of presence in Congress. So we have people who are trained arguers trying to arrive at an agreement on anything. It's, I'm surprised anything ever works in Congress at all. Are you for scientific debate? So in a scientific debate, here's how that unfolds.

Starting point is 01:22:35 I'm in conversation with you. Let's call it a debate. We know, you and I know, walking into that room. Either I'm right and you're wrong. You're right and I'm wrong or we're both wrong. We know that in advance. So we start having the conversation, well, what about these data? What about these?

Starting point is 01:22:56 I think those data are flawed and here's why. Well, how about this? Yes, that's a debate. But you know how that debate ends? It bends where we need this new data set to resolve this difference. Now let's go have a beer. I have never seen that happen in a political debate. I've never seen a nor with two lawyers in a courtroom. You know, I never thought about it that way. Good idea. I concede. Has that ever happened? I think the answer to that is no.

Starting point is 01:23:26 And so because one lawyer says, wow, you convinced me of that. No. If you see a debate on television, will one ever just concede to the other? Wow, you I've never thought about it that way. Yeah. No, they're in it for the win. Whether or not they're right. Yeah, but I can't go there. I'm so so so then how can we shoot? Okay, so for example, let me ask you from the from what we knew at the beginning of COVID to what we know today What do we know about the vaccine today that we didn't know while we were all testing it on America taking it? What have we learned now? What do you mean testing it on America? They were tested before it was released. Nine months is not a long time to test.

Starting point is 01:24:07 No, but it was tested. Yeah, but nine months, the average is five to 10 years. I mean, nine months is not enough. So you have to test. No, you have to ask, hold on. It was tested on in trials, okay? By the way, I'm not claiming to be the expert on all this. I read all the same things you have,

Starting point is 01:24:24 but I'm a scientist, so I read it as a scientist, okay? They were trials. That's what the point of Phase 1, 2, 3 trials are all about. They are tested enough to get data on how to then advise the larger population. Yes, it was tested. If you just say it wasn't tested, is it a gap between your awareness and understanding how things work and what actually happened. It was tested.

Starting point is 01:24:47 If you wanted to be tested on millions of people, instead of thousands, you can put in for that. You can say, I don't want this unless it's millions. That's okay. Totally fine with me. I'm okay with that. But the quote, so based on that, do you say, let's keep testing it while the virus keeps spreading, okay?

Starting point is 01:25:10 So this is the contest between the information you have available to you at that moment and what's going on outside the lab. People are dying, hospitals are becoming overloaded. People are dying. Hospitals are becoming overloaded. So, do you say we have good data on the thousand? It's not yet at a million, in case you wanted a million. Are you gonna say, let's still do it on another,

Starting point is 01:25:35 let's wait another six months so we get another million in here? Will you do that as a public health professional? No, I would have said allow the individual to still have a choice that's okay with a thousand instead of a few million. Leave the person have the choice. Not force him to take it or else you're gonna get out of the Marines and you've been doing this for 14 years.

Starting point is 01:25:53 Not force him to take it or else you have to cut your job as an urge. There's a public health force versus. There's a choice. No, no. There's a public health contract that you have signed implicitly as a citizen of a country where in part we depend on each other for health, our wealth, our security and the like.

Starting point is 01:26:18 And that contract is in the best scientific evidence available at the time, if you do not get vaccinated, you will put other people in this organization at risk, and that organization does not want to take that risk. So you do not have this job anymore if you decline it. So with any public health decision, there has to be a consequence to you not participating in that social contract. Is it your job, in some cases it was. But no, we're not going to have the army bust into your home and force a needle into your shoulder.

Starting point is 01:26:59 That's not going to happen. Well, you pretty much did that. Well, only put your job at risk, yes. 67% of Americans took to COVID. That's for us. That's not a choice. That's a lot of force and course and push and go on. But that's the, yeah, you can't go to the school unless you're vaccinated. That's bullshit.

Starting point is 01:27:19 I think that's bullshit. That's a different country. Yeah. But, okay, what you want to country? No, America is supposed to be the one that offers the most freedom. That's what America country. Yeah, but okay, what you want a country. No, America's supposed to be the one that offers the most freedom. That's what America's supposed to be. Okay, so watch.

Starting point is 01:27:29 So, for example, if you use that argument, so somebody may say, well, freedom of choice, I want to choose what I want to do with the body. You're right. What body? What body? If you want to get an abortion. Oh, your own body.

Starting point is 01:27:43 If you want to get an abortion, get an abortion. If I want to get the vaccine, I get to choose. So you can't force, if I can't force you to get an abortion, you shouldn't be able to force you to get the vaccine. Because it's not about you. It's about people you interact with. And that's the social contract of public health. We don't even know if the vaccine worked or not at the time.

Starting point is 01:28:00 Yes, that's what the trials are. Dude, that's why these trials. What are you missing data? But let me ask you a question. Are we saying only one type of scientists are right? No, we're saying that the system in place, the 16,000 that signed up, the system in place to test vaccines. There's an entire system that's in place. That with review boards and all of it. Yeah, that's in place. Now, you can say, what you can say is, I have a better idea than all these review boards

Starting point is 01:28:33 and all these agencies and the CDC. I have a better idea. Here's what you should do, and that would have made everything better. Okay, you can put forth that idea, but what I'm saying is, in a case where you can contaminate someone else, it's not about you, it's about the collective...

Starting point is 01:28:51 Your Assuming Health. Your Assuming, because somebody can take the vaccine, won't get COVID, which by the way, I don't need to play the clips for you to see it, where everybody said, hey, if you take the vaccine, you're not going to get a Rachel Maddard, Joe Biden. I can give you, Fauci where everybody said, hey, if you get it, you're not going to give, if you take the vaccine, you're not going to get a Rachel Mata, Joe Biden. I can give you Fauci. I can give you, and you've seen these clips before. It's not like you've never seen it before. Yeah, but they were wrong. Hold on. So, so, the strain evolved, okay? So that the vaccine that prevented you from catching COVID was tuned to the variant of COVID

Starting point is 01:29:29 at the time the vaccine was denied, what was designed. Okay? Over time, there were variants that arose. The vaccine provided partial protection against the new variants, enough to keep you from dying statistically and to basically keep you out of the hospital, allowing other people with more severe problems to get the hospital attention they required. And so then they would develop a subsequent, the booster and a subsequent mixture of the vaccine. This is what happens every year with a flu shot. They look at how the flu is evolved from one season to the vaccine. This is what happens every year with a flu shot. They look at how the flu is evolved

Starting point is 01:30:05 from one season to the next. And what's fortunate is Australia tends to get the variant of flu before we do, because they get their winter in our summer. And then so we study that, have a forward projection for it. So these annual flu shots are precisely out of the same idea of how they're supposed to go.

Starting point is 01:30:26 How long have those been tested though? For years, COVID vaccine hasn't been tested for it. It was something we just came up with. But let me let me. I don't know what point you're making. Other than it was tested, you might. Nine months has not. You might prefer, no, it's not a matter of time.

Starting point is 01:30:39 It's a matter of, it's a matter of how many, yes, time matters, but the number of people is paramount. That's the most important thing, okay? You don't test on 10 people. You test on many people as you can. I know, I think it was thousands, but it's fair to say that some of the side effects, we may not know for five, 10, 15, 20 years.

Starting point is 01:30:58 You can't, like, they can't say, we know 100% the side effects 10 years from now. How are you gonna know that? Yeah, okay, so, no, of course, we can't know that. 100% decide if it's 10 years from now. How are you going to know that? Yeah, okay. So, no, of course, we can't know that. So then all I'm saying is we can't know that. Okay. But watch.

Starting point is 01:31:11 Um, so I have a whole chapter called risk and reward in the book, which is tries to get sensitized people to when they make a decision, what kind of risks are they absorbing relative to what they're rejecting? And we're not very good at that at probability and statistics, we're analyzing. That's why TV commercials trying to sell you a product. Don't just show you data. They show a person speaking of the effectiveness

Starting point is 01:31:41 of the product, a single person. I lost 50 pounds. The testimony of an individual should be irrelevant to you, relative to the entire set of people who have done it. You want to look at those statistics, but we're not good at that. And advertisers know that. So they show the testimony of an individual, which is hugely potent in a civilization where we don't think statistically, we think about

Starting point is 01:32:06 eyewitness testimony on something. And somehow that is raised to very high level of influence on our decisions. What I'm saying is, you're not comfortable. Your decision point is not, I'm not going to take the virus because five years, ten years, I don't know what effect it's going on. Some may not be comfortable. Let me finish the sentence. You, you, okay.

Starting point is 01:32:27 So you can say, I don't want to take the virus because five or 10 years from now, there could be a side effect that we don't see, which is a possibility. Hold on. I'm trying to make a statistical pointer, okay. If you say, I don't want to take the virus because it hasn't been tested

Starting point is 01:32:46 for five years and there could be some long-term side effect that worries me. Okay. In that same moment, there's the risk factor of you getting COVID. Sure. Okay. Unvaccinated. 80, at 1.87% of everyone dying in the hospital of COVID was unvaccinated. Okay. So your risk choice is, I'm not going to take it because maybe somewhere down the line something will happen and we don't know what that is, or I will risk getting COVID. And if I get COVID, depending on your age and other things, there's a 3% chance of me dying in the hospital.

Starting point is 01:33:27 That's your choice. Yes. Yes, but what I see people doing is they focus on one thing and that's the foundation of their decision. But rather than the other chance, and what happens if you get COVID now you get long COVID now you're gonna have a taste buds for two years or whatever it is for long COVID. You're on ventilator in the hospital, possibly dying. Like, where is the, so I look every day,

Starting point is 01:33:53 once a week, I looked at the statistics. How many people getting COVID? What's the rate? What's the rate of hospitalization? What's the rate of deaths? Where is it by state? I had to look at it. I'm like, my board forced me to like,

Starting point is 01:34:03 we're in the business that we have to go. They should, of course. Because it's data,, I agree on risk factors. The risk of people's lives. Okay. So nothing is ever zero risk. Yeah, there's a risk that you'll grow a third arm in 10 years because the virus mutates within you. What should the individual should the individual not have the right to say I don't want to take it because you don't have the right to contaminate someone else. So if you don't want to take it because that is. You don't have the right to contaminate someone else. So if you don't want to get shot, who says that though? But who says that?

Starting point is 01:34:27 It's a social contract in a modern civilization. I don't have the right to contaminate someone else. And what do you mean? Like, so what do I do? Stay home all day? Yeah, or it's go to the beach. Yeah, you stay away from other people. You know, but you stay away from people

Starting point is 01:34:43 who are compromised. So, so, so, so, stay with from people who are comfortable, who are immune compromised. So so so so Neil, so for me, I'm asking you because I want to know how you processed this as a guy that's well-read smart. I processed the data and the data, but they didn't have enough data though. No, no, we didn't have enough data to give in moment. Yeah. There is data for you to make a decision at any given moment. Sure. The data is constantly getting better and better. Yeah. All right. So, all right decision at any given moment sure the date is constantly getting better and better Yeah, all right, so all right at any given moment you say to yourself. Okay

Starting point is 01:35:12 What happens to me if I get COVID? There's a chance I'll get long COVID I'm certainly out for at least a week And there's a chance I'll be hospitalized and there's a chance I'll die mm-hmm I take the vaccine it mitigates this a chance I'll be hospitalized and there's a chance I'll die. I take the vaccine, it mitigates this, basically entirely removing the chance that I'm going to die, essentially, at my age group, and I will accept the risk that in five years I'll grow a third arm.

Starting point is 01:35:38 That's the kind of decision making that I make. Now that's just for me, but on top of that, if my workplace says, we don't want you coming in unless you are vaccinated and you might lose your job, I would say why? Oh, because you could contaminate someone else, introducing a problem in their own health profile. That's the public contract. That's why workers wash their hands in the restaurant bathrooms by law. Yes, they require to do so, because you don't want poop germs in your dinner that they're preparing, because our evidence showed that that's one

Starting point is 01:36:13 of the greatest places you can spread disease is in a restaurant with a central kitchen. So these are the, this is the, now you want a world where you can do whatever you want and have it influence other people. I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that.

Starting point is 01:36:31 All I'm saying is the final. Like, okay, for example, statistics. You know, have you seen the documentary that suddenly? Have you looked at it? No, no, I haven't. Okay, it's an interesting one. It's on, I don't know where it's at. You can find it somewhere online.

Starting point is 01:36:43 Yeah, it's got 30 million views. I think it's worth watching. Actually, it would be curious't know where it's at. You can find it somewhere online. It's got 30 million views. I think it's worth watching. Actually, it would be curious to know what you say about it once you watch it. The statistic then showed like pre-COVID, 29 people, athletes, in Europe died suddenly from heart failure, pre-COVID, pre-taking the mRNA vaccine. Okay.

Starting point is 01:37:02 Post-taking the mRNA vaccine last year, 1500 people suddenly had heart failures in Europe and two-thirds died. That's documented, that's not like, it's a hypothetical, right? Okay, you read statistics like that, then one has the right to say- Just to be careful.

Starting point is 01:37:21 Have you careful how you speak information? So you are describing two events, okay? You're describing events that had a temporal relationship, okay? Before you've established a causal relationship, just be clear that that's that's been. 100%. I'm not doing that. All I'm doing is the following. Here's all I'm doing.

Starting point is 01:37:44 If somebody, all of a sudden, starts having a breakout, okay, a breakout of meaning their skin starts breaking out. They're 26 years old. You never had a breakout. All of a sudden you start breaking up. And the doctor says, listen, man, what have you been doing differently? Well, listen, for the first time in my life, six weeks, I started doing Deca steroids. Well, okay, that's why you're it implicates. All right, okay. Hey, if, that's why it implicates, right? Okay, hey, if somebody, all of a sudden, you know, is having a hard time sleeping at night.

Starting point is 01:38:11 Yeah, man, I'm having a very hard time. So, let's watch your diet. Well, then they notice at 10, 30 at night, you're having iced tea and, you know, lemonade, and you added with this, well, listen, if we've been doing it for six weeks, that's why you have an hard time. Just drop that, don't drink that after two o'clock. I'm just making, you know with the, well, listen, if we've been doing it for six weeks, that's why you have an art time. Just drop that.

Starting point is 01:38:25 Don't drink that after two o'clock. I'm just making, you know, saying, but all I'm saying is, what I want to know is, I want to put everything on the table versus saying, no, no, no, there's one thing we can't put on the table, and that's the cause of the vaccine. There is no way there could be any negative impact because of vaccine.

Starting point is 01:38:41 That's the root of Chris. As ever said that, ever about any vaccine. If you say that, then the question that becomes back for you to say, when COVID first got started, I invited so many doctors to come in to talk about COVID. And I invited people from both sides. I want both sides. I invited people from both sides.

Starting point is 01:38:59 You know what side would never come? The side that was for vaccine would never, ever come because they thought they were above the average person that they know and the rest of us are dumb. So because of that, they're not willing to come and sit down with scientists. I think that's arrogant. So to me, when I ask you scientific debate, I'm not telling you, I'm a scientist. Hey, let me debate with you because I'm smarter than I'm not a scientist. I'm a business guy. Let's do a hypothetical scenario. Hypothetics are, let's assume an actual cause and effect has been established in these case, which it's not, I have to see this film to know. I have to know that it's a cause and effect other than a coincidence

Starting point is 01:39:39 in time relative to other people might have been doing. By the way, alcohol consumption went up during COVID, significantly, okay? And alcohol is implicated in heart disease. So depression, anxiety, people staying at home, kids, opioid addiction. Okay, so the staying at home wasn't the best decision either. What I'm saying is, if after the vaccine is available,

Starting point is 01:40:02 more people die of heart failure, over a time where alcohol consumption went up as did depression. That could be an option. That's right. That's a very good one. That's all I'm saying here. But let's give it to you,

Starting point is 01:40:14 that the vaccine caused this. Let's just say that, okay? And add it all up and you get, what was it, 1,500 post vaccine? 29 to 1,500. Oh, 29,000. 29,000, oh, oh, oh, it's 5,500. Thousands of deaths. Yeah. Okay. 1500 post vaccine 29 to 15 on her oh 20 29.9 15,000 to deaths. Yeah, okay

Starting point is 01:40:29 Let's say 10,000 even let's just do that okay All right You can estimate how many deaths the vaccine saved during COVID Okay, because you can look at the death numbers drop off as people got vaccinated. It's in the tens of millions. Again, you can make a decision. Do I not want to die from COVID at this rate that occurred in this world? Or do I not want to die from this complication from the vaccine itself?

Starting point is 01:41:07 No. So make your decision. And so you'll say, I might be in that 1500, so I'm not going to think, then you get COVID and die from COVID, right? So you just make the decision. You know what I would say to that? Well, you know what I would say to that? What would you say?

Starting point is 01:41:20 Here's what I would say to that. I would say, perfect. Let me take the risk and thank you for giving it to me that way versus telling me it's one or the other. As long as you were informed, fully about what the risk are. But like I said, as a species, we're not very good at thinking statistically about it, we're just not. And when we want to, we believe we're going to be the exception and look at the people betting on lottery, you know, they believe we're going to be the exception. Look at the people betting on lotteries. They think they're going to win.

Starting point is 01:41:47 But for me, the moment they started saying, you have to put on cigarettes, the risk of this, the risk of heart failure, cancer, this, this, that. And if you still want to smoke cigarettes, guess what? You got to risk if you smoke cigarettes, you may get lung cancer, right? If you eat this, if you do this, if you do that, as we've denied your admission to the bar, there's a cost to that because it's a public health issue. And so, right, you are free to smoke the cigarette, but not in my establishment, by law.

Starting point is 01:42:15 Not in your establishment, by law. Correct. No problem, totally fine. But that's an example. But if you want to smoke cigarettes outside, you can't, and you can live on the beach, unvaccinated. That's fine. Neil, let me ask you this.

Starting point is 01:42:26 So, so what state would you say was the most responsible during COVID state? I don't know. I don't know. Okay. So, if you're a staff, no idea. Okay. I'm a staff guy. He's well, I like stats, but I'm more financial.

Starting point is 01:42:38 I'm not like, you know, you know, you understand what you're saying? A lot of stats in front of the desk. I'm a baseball guy. So, I like stats. I'm all of us stats. I love baseball. So, if we look at the stats, the media made Florida seem the most irresponsible state.

Starting point is 01:42:52 That's what the media made it look. We're in Florida right now. You guys do have kind of a bad reputation on a lot of stuff. Okay, so say, and by the way, I've lived in California 24 years, five years in Texas, two years in Florida. Okay, so you know my background. That's right. Okay, and you're seeing Iran two years in Germany. That's kind of my background, not've lived in California 24 years, five years in Texas, two years in Florida. Okay. So, you know, my background.

Starting point is 01:43:05 That's right. Okay. And you're seeing around two years in Germany. That's kind of my background. Couple years in a military. But if we say, hey, if we look at the data, the most irresponsible state was Florida. You would have heard many times news telling you that, when I go to California and I would say, I'm in Florida, I'm like, oh my God, you're in Florida.

Starting point is 01:43:21 Oh my God, horrible. But you know what I realized? Here's what I realize. If the state of Florida is so bad, why did the NBA during Black Lives Matter host the playoffs in Florida? In the bubble? If Florida is...

Starting point is 01:43:34 I thought they created a bubble for themselves. But why did they come here? They could have done it in Texas. Texas got plenty places they could do it. And why did they do it here? I don't know. But the point is, they felt safest. What, I'm not gonna use the NBA as a measure of what is.

Starting point is 01:43:45 They also say, I give you a lot of super bolluscious. I'll give you another one. Pro vaccine AOC for vacation. She came to Miami. People from New York and California were partying for Miami. During COVID, when everybody was looking for home during Christmas where to go to, you couldn't go to Colorado, you couldn't go to Lake Tahoe because it go to Lake Tau, because it sucked.

Starting point is 01:44:06 You had all these other choices, everybody came to Florida. I'm not gonna just to say though. Just to say though. The safety of a, I can't use that as a statistics of safety. I can't. I don't care who chooses where to vacation. I care what your death rates are,

Starting point is 01:44:23 what your vaccination rates are, what your hospitalization rates are. That would be an objective measure from state to state. What state are you most likely to die in from COVID? That's a statistic I would pay attention to. What state has the least hospital beds to accommodate those who are sick from COVID, even are not going to die from COVID? I would want to know that. I'm not gonna base a decision on whether the NBA chose to put their bubble in the state. Well, statistically, New York in California does not look statistically, New York in California,

Starting point is 01:44:52 and they're supposed to be the most responsible ones. Those two states didn't look at, all I'm saying is from my end, in a space where I sit there and I listen to you and I learn. I said, oh my gosh, okay, I had no clue about that. That was brilliant, that's interesting. Let me go research. Let me go look at this. I'm a guy that likes debate of experts in two different sides and let them make the argument and I'm mature enough to know the better salesman doesn't necessarily have the better argument.

Starting point is 01:45:18 But let me just say that I'm there's nothing I've said in the last half hour. That is a debating point. All I'm telling you, but you can said in the last half hour. That is a debating point. All I'm telling you, but you can debate whether you should still be able to work and put other workers at risk for not having vaccinated. That's, you can debate that. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:45:36 In the context of public health, that's a risk factor that we don't want to introduce to other people because of your decisions. That's a public health issue. It's been going on basically for 100 and something years. Since, you know, the, the, what's the, who's the woman who is some famous medic of the case? A person who spread, what's it?

Starting point is 01:46:01 What is that case recently? No, no, 100 years ago. It created a whole wave of Sanitation rules and things for public health sake. But anyway, the point is it's I want to make sure you know You can focus on the 1500 people who died after the vaccine Mary Mallen You don't know the history of typhoid fever. Yeah, typhoid Mary. Yes Thank you. Yeah, okay. I didn't order last name. Yeah, I thought typhoid fever? Yeah, typhoid Mary. Yes, typhoid Mary. I didn't order last name. Yeah, I thought typhoid was a first name. Typhoid Mary.

Starting point is 01:46:28 Okay. Wait, wait. So, it's simply a matter of, if you're saying you don't want to be in the 2000, whatever the number is, who died after the vaccine from heart failure at the peak of your physical career, not totally necessarily factoring in all the other abuses that went on over that time that may have contributed to it.

Starting point is 01:46:54 Instead, you wanna take the risk of COVID and not be one of the 20 million people who would have died and didn't, right? So I just want you to have the statistics in front of you. And it seems to me, most people would, in most cases, choose the path that reduces their chance of death. By the way, I don't disagree. That's why I'm not debating.

Starting point is 01:47:18 I'm just saying this, I'm putting it out there. But this part of what you're saying, I'm a 100% with you. But this is, it's not a matter of being with me, it's just, are you with no decision, but what is a rationale? But this position is not an arrogant position. This position is kind of like when you're sitting there

Starting point is 01:47:36 and a doctor, you tell the doctor, so Doc, what do I do? Do I get the search, like we have one of my good friends right now is getting a brain surgery in the next couple weeks. She's afraid, now she believes in God, so faith is kind of common or down, but she's afraid. Okay. The doctor says there's a 10% chance you're not going to make it.

Starting point is 01:47:52 Do you want to for the rest of your life live having to take that medication with the side effect or do you want to do the surgery? The individual is making a decision to get the surgery. She knows the chances is what? 10%. You know what I say to that? Hey, at least to get the surgery. She knows the chances is what? 10%. You know what I say to that? Hey, at least I know the risk versus no. If you take this, you won't get anything propaganda,

Starting point is 01:48:14 selling me this. What's the three things that you say? There's three different types of truth, right? Say objective truth, personal truth, and political truth. Exactly. That's the one I have a problem with. And I agree with you.

Starting point is 01:48:24 And that's the part I have a problem with. I agree with you. We all and that's the part I have a problem with I'm personal truth. Let's debate how fun with it great. Let the audience yeah, yeah, you want to debate debate Exactly. That's cool. Kirk or Picard, you know, yes, whatever. Yes, but start track reference Dude who let him in. I'm sorry. Let him in. I've been asking that question for years I'm sorry. Who let him in? They've been asking that question for years. The political truth, I think, is what brought a lot of a division in households and companies different places.

Starting point is 01:48:51 I think that's what happened last two and a half years, specifically with that. And you know this, you took it, you didn't take it, you're part of political party. Like you may be positioned me right now. Statistically that was the correct statement. Yes, statistically it was, but what was interesting is that people with no college degrees took the vaccine less than those with bachelor's degrees, but then MBA was the least, which is kind of funny. MBA people took the least amount of extra things. So, so you're allowed to do that. Yeah, interesting, sociology, statistics.

Starting point is 01:49:21 Uh huh. Can I ask you a follow-up on this? Because I think this is the question that you're really asking, but we're using COVID as like a, as an example, as a case example, I'm just gonna show you a little bit of this. I'm just gonna show you a little bit of this. I'm just gonna show you a little bit of this. I'm just gonna show you a little bit of this. I'm just gonna show you a little bit of this. I'm just gonna show you a little bit of this. I'm just gonna show you a little bit of this. I'm just gonna show you a little bit of this. I'm just gonna show you a little bit of this.

Starting point is 01:49:38 I'm just gonna show you a little bit of this. I'm just gonna show you a little bit of this. I'm just gonna show you a little bit of this. I'm just gonna show you a little bit of this. I'm just gonna show you a little bit of this. I'm just gonna show you a little bit of this. I'm just gonna show you a little bit of this. about is the social contract, the collectivism, the greater good on one hand, doing the right thing, protect your neighbor. But on the other hand, one would argue, like sort of the woven in fabric of America is this rugged individualism,

Starting point is 01:49:54 being able to make your own choices and being self-reliant. So, all of a sudden... Yes, I'll go move to a cabin in the woods and don't get vaccinated. No one will stop you from doing that. But is that what rugged individualism means? Individualism means that, to me, individual means you matter more than anyone else around you

Starting point is 01:50:11 in the decisions you make about your life. And so, to me, that's what individualism is. And so, how do we juxtapose that with the rest of society that doesn't want the disease you might carry and give to them? You like I said just move into a log cabin Until until the disease washes over and then wait till the rest of us have herd immunity And then you won't get it and you you'll be just fine Let us get the herd immunity for you

Starting point is 01:50:41 We'd rather do that for the person who is immune compromised who can't get the vaccine, but in America, in a freedom woven into our identity, America, post-Fem, America, right there with the hoodie. So I don't have any problem thinking that way, but I'm not going to let you in the room with my immune compromised nephew who can't get the vaccine because his immune system won't allow it because he has some other condition. So you that he's relying on the I don't have such an FU but they exist. I was going to say give him my best. Thank you. Thank you for thinking that way that the herd immunity is you get enough vaccinations within that even if the virus shows up, it can't propagate.

Starting point is 01:51:30 Yeah. Because the next person it hits is resistant to it. And so what's, what's the most unattractive and attractive quality to you? If you were to say the most attractive quality in a human being versus unattractive, what would you say to it? I don't have an opinion. Okay. So I think I have a pretty good sense of humor and I notice a lot of people. I know you do.

Starting point is 01:51:52 Like humor. So I'd like, I think you're very fun. I like making people smile. Yeah. Especially if I can have them smile while they're learning, then you'll learn that much more. It's called value-taming. That's what you're bringing. That's a pretty good thing. I love that. It's called value-taming. That's what you're bringing about.

Starting point is 01:52:05 You're bringing value-taming. I love that. It's called value-taming. No, but you see what you did there. Yeah, but I, but I, I, I, I, I, I, I don't, it's not for me to judge what the value-taming question is. You know why I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I And it's very annoying when somebody just thinks they know everything 100% certainty and you're dumb and you don't know it.

Starting point is 01:52:29 And because of that, you better or else you don't care about other people. And that's the part about the force versus the choice thing we're talking about here. And that was felt a lot from some of the people. I know people in the news. It was a weaver as they mentality. Which by the way, I've taken probably more vaccines than 99% of you. I was in a military. We took, God knows how many vaccines I've taken.

Starting point is 01:52:49 It was more, if you would have taken me and said, here's your options, here's what you got. I may have entertained more than, another way of forcing you down my throat. Last topic before we wrap up. We're into your arm. Yeah, that's true. That's a bad way to take the shot on your throat

Starting point is 01:53:02 to probably not a good idea. That visualization is not a good visualization. Last stop before we wrap up. How much, I've seen you say you were talking to somebody from some China media company, and you were talking about us in China are frenemies, friends in enemies and all that stuff. And you said, the competition to go back to the moon,

Starting point is 01:53:21 we're not winning it, China's winning it. You were talking about how on the way it's going. I don't think that's what I said, but I can see how one can think that. They're winning it. That I can see how that, but gone. Okay. So what I think what I said was,

Starting point is 01:53:36 the only reason why we're going back to the moon now is upon seeing China's plans to go to the moon. Because otherwise we could have done this 30, 40 years ago. We could have stayed on the moon. There's a lot of things we could have done and didn't. And all of a sudden, we're going back to the moon and it's the right, and everyone feels good about it. And we parked the curtains and move the pages,

Starting point is 01:53:56 look behind the beads, and there is the motivation for it. As Americans, in spite of our own memory of ourselves, we are much better reacting to threats than we are being proactive, let me say threats. Competition is the way you put it. I think you were presenting it. Yeah, let me just be really specific. We remember ourselves as being space pioneers,

Starting point is 01:54:23 and we're here in Florida, we're at all the launches were, and but really we were reactive to the progress made in the Soviet Union rather than proactive. They had the first satellite, the first non-human animal, the first human, they had the first woman, they had the first dark skinned person, a Cuban communist, they had the first space station. They had, they beat us practically everything. And we said, well, how, what can we do to, and say, let's go to

Starting point is 01:54:52 the moon. All right. So we went to the moon beat, and then we say, we win. Even though they had beaten us in every other metric, we get them to say, we win. And then we saw they're not going to the moon. So we abandoned the program Yeah, so we'd like to think we're explorers or Americans. That's why we did it I know we did it because we were scared witness So here's China saying we're gonna put some folks on the moon if they've made good on every space promise they have made and All of a sudden we have renewed interest in going to the moon got a lot of it I don't want to be so naive as to think we just decided it just on a lark.

Starting point is 01:55:27 That's the point I was making. No, and again, if anybody wants to watch a clip, you can go find it, just type in Neil DeGrasse Tyson, he can put frenemy, Shannon, you'll see. It's a great clip, it's like 30 minutes, highly recommend people watching it. You know, I haven't recene it, so thank you for that. I think it's really insightful,

Starting point is 01:55:42 the way you're explaining the fact that competition even amongst governments is good because it makes us do It was a very interesting point being made about it. It can accelerate progress. I agree What how much in maybe your answer to this maybe different than some of the rest of us You know the question about what keeps you up at night? Yeah, what keeps you up at night for a mother with a newborn What keeps you up at night for a mother with a newborn is the baby for a guy with a start up. Not really true. It's the start up for a guy who's a podcaster. He's got a big interview the next day and it's the best guess he's ever had in five years

Starting point is 01:56:13 and he's thinking this is going to be it. It's the interview for the guy that's about to race capital and he's got it's the guy he's raising capital with. What keeps you up at night in regards not personal life where it's like my daughters, my wife, my family, my dish, in regards to enemies America may have. What keeps you up at night? Oh.

Starting point is 01:56:38 Yeah, I don't, those aren't the kind of thoughts I have. You look around the world, they're always warring factions. But I try to put it on a scale. And on that scale, today, there's conflict in the world. And sometimes if it's armed conflict, people die. This sort of thing, of course, in Ukraine and Russia, and this sort of thing. When I look back to the Second World War between 1939 and 1945,

Starting point is 01:57:12 1,000 people were killed per hour of every hour between 1939 and 1945. You wanna talk about a time of violence. There is no comparison to that period. We look back on it, it's only one the war and we have the technology. And it's remembered differently from the carnage that that caused.

Starting point is 01:57:40 And so when I look around and I see carnage in the world, and I index it to that, I say to myself, we're in a relatively safe world, which is hard. It's a hard sell if you're the country being invaded and bombed, you know, no question. So, so that's why it's it's a hard conversation to have, but I think it matters. People say we're in the most racist time ever. No, we're not. Objectively.

Starting point is 01:58:09 I have stories from my parents. I have stories from my life. I have metrics for this. Yeah, there's still problems. But you know how to measure this? Here's how you do it. Let's say you're on the gender spectrum or you're a person of color,

Starting point is 01:58:25 or you're a woman, and you have a time machine. And someone says, and I talk about this in the book, I say, here's a time machine. You can have access to any time in the history of civilization. Where would you go? And choose a time where you'll be better off than you are today? There is no time. You're gone nowhere. You're going nowhere send me to the future because the arc of progress the arc of morality bends towards progress and

Starting point is 01:59:01 nowhere nowhere at all and nowhere, nowhere, at all. If you're gay, you can say, let me go back, Clinton was a good, oh, wait a minute, that was the don't ask, don't tell, era. That was AIDS pervasive killing everyone, era. Okay, right, right, right. So our media has a tendency, news media,

Starting point is 01:59:21 has a tendency to focus on all that is bad and leave you with the impression that everything is bad without the metric of, well, some things are better. Most things are better. Why don't we focus on that and do more of that rather than become sad over the things that are bad? Does that sentence come out? Such a powerful point right now. Right, right, everything you're saying.

Starting point is 01:59:47 We are doing some things that are good. That's why there is progress. What you're saying is we're living in the best time humanity has ever seen, ever, ever. That's such a necessary message to us. And even with the violence, especially in these days, the violence against trans people, okay?

Starting point is 02:00:11 All right, yes. Go back in time, the existence of trans people was even denied, okay? Oh, you have a mental condition. It was 1987 before the American Psychiatric Association removed homosexuality as a mental disorder from their catalog. 87, that's not for all folks, that's not all that long ago.

Starting point is 02:00:36 We remember those times. So yeah, there's problems today. I'm not going back to any time in the past. You know, there's a lot of like younger folks that don't remember that. You know, I see a lot of these Gen Z types. Right, right. Young, what would your message be to young people,

Starting point is 02:00:54 even if you're not out of, Adam, Adam, sorry. Let's stay on this topic. That's what I do. That's what we're saying. No, no, I'm staying on this topic here. I'm staying on the topic of what's keeping you up at night. When I go on a younger people, well, what's the topic of what's keeping you up at night? I go on a younger people. Well, what's going on in the topic of what's keeping you up at night?

Starting point is 02:01:05 But you want me to think about sort of the violence in the world. And when I reflect on the world, I think of how we are not killing a thousand people per hour in warfare with the world at war. I think about that. I think about the fact that yes, a taxi does pick me up today, even though I'm going north in Manhattan, where Harlem is. And whereas 15 years ago, they would not, or at least two and four would not, I can always wait for one to pick me up. I think about the occasions when I was coming up where I would just simply be ignored. This is something that women experience all the time with men. It's something that the black community was experienced with.

Starting point is 02:01:49 If you have expertise, you're just ignored. That has changed. Now you have black experts on television talking about things that have nothing to do with being black. We need an expert on this international relations. How often do you talk about this? I know it's a never. No, how often you talk?

Starting point is 02:02:05 Never. Hardly ever. Why don't you though? Because then I become the person who talks about black things. And I don't want to be that person to you. I want to be the astrophysicist who tells you about the universe and the James Webb Space Telescope. And all the rest of this. It shows it. Sometimes I think, I think, sometimes I think, we have a life experience that we have been granted with to use as a way to give a different perspective to people at a time that's necessary to unify a nation. You're planning on other black people to give exactly that sound, but they don't have your voice

Starting point is 02:02:39 still, they don't have your, but by the way, I appreciate you saying that. I got an example, I was in South Africa in 1992. Yeah, okay. Barely the vote in South Africa. South Africa. Yeah. And I'm walking the street.

Starting point is 02:02:51 I'm not a small person. I'm walking and there are two, a couple coming towards me, the South Africa, they're right. They did not even look up. They're just looking down, talking to each other. It was fully expected that I would part around them for them to keep walking forward. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:03:12 It wasn't even, oh, let's just both take a slight half step to the side as you pass one another. No, that is not what happened. And I, at another time, I'm in a convenience store and I put the money down, the Cougarans, and the gum or whatever I was buying, while I'm there in that little open section of the heavily overstuffed purchase area,

Starting point is 02:03:35 someone comes up behind me, put something down, fully expecting that they're gonna be taken next when I am standing there. Like I said, I'm not a small person. This was South Africa. And I realized, okay, they still have a way to go because they haven't even graduated to the point of noticing me and then calling me names. They were still in a state where I did not exist and I was irrelevant.

Starting point is 02:04:06 Then I look at those images from the 1950s of the police dogs and the people when the little schoolchildren are trying to go into the high school and I say, wow, that's an advance over being completely ignored. All right, we look at the arc of how what it takes for people to achieve equality and equity and all the things that the promised land should give us all. I said to myself, okay, South Africa has a long way to go because they were not even calling me the N word. And I began to look at the N word as,

Starting point is 02:04:46 oh, okay, at least know I'm here. That would have been progress is what you're saying. Progress. Or progress. You know what the... So to answer your question, I don't think about that. But by the way, you don't come across as a person that does think about that.

Starting point is 02:05:02 Yeah, well thank you. And I mean it in the most positive way, because I feel you are optimistic about the future and grateful that you come that way and the energy you feel that energy from you. Some people are concerned about TikTok and the influence over TikTok and how China's using it. You've seen some articles, Forbes, you've seen it.

Starting point is 02:05:23 Maybe this is not a topic that you study yourself or what, because's not your world. Because I was on a board of the Pentagon that advised the president on this. Fantastic. And then it became a news story. Should TikTok be banned or should we leave it in America? Should it be banned? So with whatever other reason one might object to TikTok, the fact that it's a Chinese company and the history of this exercise is that China has typically has back doors into access and who you are and what you're doing. That is a natural state of their government to have that kind of access to their people.

Starting point is 02:05:55 By the way, our company is an our own government has kind of that same access to us, except it's our own government. Yeah, exactly. So don't look at this as that some specialize. Sure. All right. Facebook knows everything there is to know about you.

Starting point is 02:06:08 Not the rating that. So I would be in favor, and I don't, I haven't followed this lately, the latest after we first advised Trump on this. This is a fact a few years ago. It was the, it was a, one of the, it was a brand new board of the Pentagon, defense innovation board, innovative things that were happening in the world to keep you, to keep the military at the forefront of what they need to know and do so you can have a military that is ready for the 21st century and whatever it delivers.

Starting point is 02:06:46 So the point is, I could imagine just if they maybe they've already done this, I don't know. To split the company and just have a TikTok America that has no ties back to China. They try to do that. They try to force themselves. Otherwise, otherwise, or other than maybe the annual you know bore out eating or something make sure the mission statements are lying i i i i i i wouldn't have any problem with that yeah

Starting point is 02:07:11 that way we would control the back end yeah and then and the question becomes it's kind of like saying to follow which is kind of weird imagine if tiktok us a was allowed to be bought by elan musk holy shit that's a crazy situation, right, if that were to happen. If they allowed somebody like him to buy,

Starting point is 02:07:28 because the first thing he's gonna do is, you wanna talk about Twitter files? It becomes TikTok files times a thousand. Every day we get TikTok. Yeah, I want you to see this. So this is, make the video bigger. So this is a guy, it doesn't matter because you're not gonna see his face.

Starting point is 02:07:44 This guy, Neil Shen, is a, first't matter because you're not gonna see a space this guy niel shen is a first goes with the pete who niel shen is a four billion out of guy and niel shen is being interviewed here by good is with the pete uh... he sits on secoya yep go to right there zoom into his uh... profile niel shen is a member of the tent cpcc national committee vice president professional committee venture capital fund of asset management association of a member of the TENT CPPCC National Committee, Vice President of Professional Committee, Adventure Capital Fund of Assam Management,

Starting point is 02:08:07 Association of China, Member of Hong Kong, Sartre, Chief Executive, Advisory Panel, and Manchester, da da da da da da da da. Anyways, he's a very connected guy, and he's a four billion dollar guy. Now watch this interviewer asks a very basic question, but watch how he defines AI, and why China's better than us in AI,

Starting point is 02:08:25 and just wanna get your reaction on the school floor. So it's a minute half clip. In fact, fundamentally, what is AI in the whole science field? It's mathematics and statistics. And China has a very strong talent in these two areas. You've got to smile on your faces as if to say, we can do that.

Starting point is 02:08:41 I'm a applying mass major when I was undergrating China. And there are many of my talented, you know, alarms and colleagues, I'm pretty sure they could do well. So you've got the talent and you've got the data is the environment for getting hold of that data easier in China as the regulatory environment. Does that make life easier? Because in Europe, for example, we have quite strict rules

Starting point is 02:09:02 about privacy and so forth. Well, I think privacy and protections is always an issue, whether it's in UK or within US or in China. I think there are different sectors in China have different regulations. Why does it come in a ratio? Adducing those regulations are very important and relevant. But in general, I think there is just more data point. But there is surely a danger that AI can be used as a tool of suppression and surveillance.

Starting point is 02:09:31 And I'm going to stick my neck out here and say in an authoritarian country, such as China. Does that worry you at all? I don't think so. Why? Why not? We can just engage with the question a bit because it is clearly to say that we collect data everywhere, but would you not prepare to talk about that? We could make the censorship of the Internet. It's a co-hose, isn't it? No.

Starting point is 02:10:00 Silence. I mean, is it broadly true in the sense that You just don't want to talk about the implications for and more authoritarian society. Awkward. Just leave a little bit of a hole around that. Well, we'll move on. So he went from very talkative to silence. Yeah, they asked me about it. They have to go off script there. Yeah. There you go. I agree with you.

Starting point is 02:10:28 Or ruffle a little bit of feather. Well, you know what he's saying? No, no, I think he's what he's saying. Go off script. And off script is. It's a question that wasn't scripted that sounds like. Yeah. But he's right, the AI can process information

Starting point is 02:10:46 manifold faster than any other kind of way you would ever analyze information. And yeah, you can do whatever you wanted with it. You can suppress, you can enhance, you can cause people to get elected or not elected by influencing what they see, what they think, what they feel. And so yeah, that's a possible future of AI.

Starting point is 02:11:07 In the hands of people who are nefarious in their intent. That's the part about AI. Sometimes, like we were talking about earlier, it's a voidy worried about what he thinks is going to happen with this, that we're like, oh, we're thinking about this. Oh, my God, we may lose our jobs, right? I mean, that's the old version. It was like, ah, no, the real part of it is probably.

Starting point is 02:11:24 That's not your biggest problem. Because if the enemy like a China knows how to use AI, they can completely reshape the way of thinking for your nation. By the way, by the way, China has a minister of AI. The United Arab Emirates has a minister of AI. Rob can you pull this up? So these would, this is our equivalent of a cabinet, right?

Starting point is 02:11:49 We do not have a minister of AI. Why do we not have one? This is America. No! No! He, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, no, I mean, if you visit other countries, they see no and care about the future of AI on a level. Now, of course, the military has an AI group that are thinking deeply about how that would be invoked. On my board, we put, because AI would come under the innovation

Starting point is 02:12:18 umbrella, and our board, we put parameters about how the military would ever use AI in a, in what would be a lethal decision. And what kind of, oh, should there be a human in the loop, the AI would not be making that decision autonomously. So we put in a system of ethics related to it. So with, so it's not like no one in our government is thinking about it. But imagine if there wasn't a cabinet post,

Starting point is 02:12:45 a secretary of AI, that would change people's awareness of its value to the governance of this nation and what it might be doing in other nations. But we haven't, and we're not. We're arguing about whether humans are warming the earth. Okay, this is what's going on in America. Are we? Sorry, I laughed at him. Yes. Okay. Wouldn't be the first or last nail to graduate. Very interesting what you just said though. Very

Starting point is 02:13:17 interesting what you just said. So, so you're saying if we have, if we had to create a priority of what to study as a nation to create security and safety for its people, you're saying the climate change wouldn't be in your top five. You would put AI, it sounds like you're saying AI, studying something of the space. No, no, no, I wouldn't rank them, I just do them all. You don't have to rank things. But you got to kind of budget, like you know how you said one time, you know, our budget for space is 0.4% of 1%, which is, let me break this, remember the one you broke that I thought I was like, so out of the, whatever budget we got 0.4% of every dollar. Yeah, it's spent. If you cut

Starting point is 02:13:58 it's a dollar bill, 0.4% of it doesn't even get you into the ink. It's just the border of the edge. Yeah, so a form of where we put our money as a form of saying was a priority. Yes, of course, but I'm just saying, I don't need to put it in one place and not another place if you can put it in both places. Well, if you could put more resources in one place, what would it be?

Starting point is 02:14:19 If you could put in this country right now. Yeah, yeah. I'm on sources of energy that are renewable, which would include fusion, nuclear fusion, as we had the ignition test just a couple of weeks ago successful at the Lawrence Livermore labs. That's a basically clean energy. We just have to figure out how to contain it and throttle it and use it in ways we need. So that I would do that. I would also consider turning the solar system into our backyard because rare earth elements, for example, that are causing some geopolitical tension

Starting point is 02:14:50 and conflict access to them for all of our modern day electronics, they're asteroids that have nothing but rare earth elements in them. In fact, they're common asteroid elements. So the asteroids have pre-sifted these ingredients out there in space when they all formed. And so, yeah, there's the breakthrough you have up there on the chart. So, yeah, I would do that because that has a much longer value time to civilization

Starting point is 02:15:16 than anything else we're debating today. And I'd be double down on whether quantum entanglement can matter in any important way, and quantum computing, for sure. Quantum entanglement is that something, Jato Pinkett, what kind of... Well, Smith, I thought you said entanglement. What is quantum entanglement? Quantum entanglement, it's a whole thing. Yeah, it's, you have two particles created together, then you separate them. You make a measurement on one that instantaneously

Starting point is 02:15:47 Manifests in the other at faster than the speed of light. So it's very spooky action at a distance Quantum entanglement. Yeah, so it's a frontier of quantum physics and it will be exploited in quantum computing So I would say quantum computing these are frontiers that can transform how we live and what we do these are frontiers that can transform how we live and what we do. There you go. So do that until we go into the book and show tonight and I will wrap it up. Cool. I just had a quote. It was more Related space related. Yeah, really. You're gonna have to face question. Yeah, space question.

Starting point is 02:16:15 I don't know. I don't know if you like talking about space. Really? But I do like the fact that you both got three letters and you know, PBD, NDG. Okay. Right? NDT. NDT. It's my bad. three letters and you know, PPD, NDG, right? NDT, it's my bad, Neil deGrasse Tyson. How many, I've heard you talk about this before about how many universes there are

Starting point is 02:16:34 and that we exist in multiple universes. How many Neil deGrasse Tyson's, how many Patrick Bette-David's, how many Adam Sausnecks, are there in the entire universe? Well, no, so there's the multiverse and the multiverse concept, which has very strong theoretical reasons to think it's real, even though we've not measured one yet. But it comes out of equations that are otherwise working splendidly for us in this universe. You go back to the beginning of time, the big bang, and the equations that generate our universe

Starting point is 02:17:05 give us multiple universes. So it's a fascinating frontier in physics. It would give so many universes that every combination of atoms will be realized in those universes, including combinations of atoms that would exactly duplicate this universe. Or maybe I'm the host and you're the guest, or you have an evil mustache or something.

Starting point is 02:17:29 Or whatever. He did have a go-t last week. Go-t last week. One week. So you did have, that was your other person. This universe. I'm the only Middle Eastern that can't grow full on beard. I don't have a lot of facial hair.

Starting point is 02:17:42 He doesn't have it. It is. My dad is like stack. And you got hair growing up out of your shirt, but you can't grow it on your face. Okay. So for the fifth creator in me, explain what that means. How many Neil deGrasse? Okay. So you'd have all these other universes with all planets, stars playing out. There might be one that looks like earth that has life like that. And they they evolve just the way we did with an asteroid that took out the dinosaurs that could happen in duplicate. That doesn't mean it's you. Because we've already done that experiment. They're

Starting point is 02:18:15 called twins. Your twin is genetically identical to you, but it's not you. So just because there's someone else who's genetically identical to you in the universe doesn't make it you. So the people who want this as some form of eternal life, no. There's no evidence to think that that's how that would actually play out. So there's no evil, there might be an evil pbd with a fake mustache, but there's only one pbd and it's an interesting indie film called another earth Which I recommend where we discover another earth exactly opposite our orbit and Everything is identical until the two earths communicated with each other. He was hoping from the literature Win he's kind of disappointed. Yeah anyways, it's like that's a new episode from the literature point. He's kind of disappointed.

Starting point is 02:19:03 Anyways, it's like that signaled episode. Tell us about your new book. New book that came out, Stari Messenger. Stari Messenger, yeah, just a few months ago. It's my attempt to show everyone what the world looks like when you're scientifically literate, and you have a cosmic perspective on it. So it's called cosmic perspectives.

Starting point is 02:19:22 It's Stari Messenger cosmic perspectives on civilization. And so there are chapters in there that, yeah, there's one on risk and reward. It reminds you us that we are really bad at statistics. And there's an entire industry that exists knowing this fact and they're called casinos. Yeah, people trying to roll dice and they need high numbers, so they roll the dice harder to try to get high numbers, or they roll it softer if they want a low number. They're betting on seven on their roulette table. And I said, why are you betting on it?

Starting point is 02:19:54 It's like six times in a row. Let's do! I say, why do you think it's due? Well, because look at the previous rolls in head, no, it's not due. This is an inability to understand probability and statistics, and I think it's not due. This is an inability to understand probability and statistics. And I think it's a failure of the wiring

Starting point is 02:20:09 of the human species brain. Do you realize the first time anyone ever took an average of numbers? Realizing that would be a good idea. That was not until like the late 1700s. Calculus had already been developed, a geometry algebra, all of that, and it was a late, when our country was being born,

Starting point is 02:20:33 someone said, you know, maybe I'll take an average and see if that's good. That statistic. Yes, late. Late. Late. And so that tells me that statistics is not a natural way to... This has even post-Newton, post-Newton.

Starting point is 02:20:48 Yes, post-Newton. And he's the guy that started counting. He's still... Loot and didn't know. Correct. Yeah, the man birthed calculus and taking an average average happens late crazy. It's completely crazy.

Starting point is 02:20:58 So that tells me, it hints to me, that statistics is not a native way we ever think about anything. And so it's a struggle to then replace your emotional interpretation of what's going on with a statistical one. Again, that gets back to the early point about advertisers. They will give an emotional case rather than just simply show a bar chart. I want to see a bar chart. Is this the best product? And then there's the data. Then fine, I don't need someone tearing up in the screen, telling me how much they love the product.

Starting point is 02:21:29 Just give me the data, but they know that doesn't work. And so, here's what's interesting. Do you know where lottery money goes to? It funs schools. It funs schools. Yeah. So let's look at the school curriculum. Oh, there is no statistics taught.

Starting point is 02:21:43 Jesus Christ. It's like a, it's like a, what an idol. It's an elective or something, but it's not part of the reading, writing, arithmetic. So, I wonder why there's no statistics. Because if they taught statistics, you would know not to play the letter. No, it's how you're not to play the letter.

Starting point is 02:21:56 And they would have, so. So, this is my only conspiracy theory I've ever had that the states intentionally don't teach you statistics so that you become an adult lottery player so they can still get the money. You know, there's a lot more conspiracy theories to follow except that one. No, it is what it is. That one actually has some validity. That's the only one I'm sticking to.

Starting point is 02:22:16 All right, that's my only way. You give me one conspiracy theory, that's the one. Wow. So there's a whole chapter on that. There's a chapter on color and race. So I go there and there. There's one on meat eaters and vegetarians. These are warring factions in society where people dig their heels in with strongly held

Starting point is 02:22:33 opinions. And I just say, look, here's what that looks like to a scientist. And here's what it would look like coming from above. And often the opinions just evaporate. They just, I'll give an example in the vegetarian meat eater chapter. Okay. We all know vegetarians and one of them, some might be vegetarians, so they just don't want to kill animals.

Starting point is 02:22:56 Okay. All right. Fine. So they have my humane mouse trap in their basement. You trap the mouse and then what do you do when after you capture it? Eat it. No. No.

Starting point is 02:23:09 What do they do after they capture the mouse? They let it go. They take it back out to the woods to let it go. And then it comes back in. Well, wait, out to the woods, where it is basically guaranteed to be swallowed whole by an owl or picked apart by a predator bird or eaten by a fox or any manner of woodland predators. And the average life expectancy of a mouse in the wild is about 18 months.

Starting point is 02:23:35 So the safest thing for the mouse is to leave it in your basement, where it could live up to six years, a full natural life, but that's not what happens. So the idea that you want to preserve life and you don't want to kill it, and you take it out and put it in the wild where it's guaranteed to be killed, that person possibly hasn't fully thought that through. Continuing, they're living in a house made of the wood

Starting point is 02:24:03 from 50 trees, typically. Trees that would have lived a hundred years. Each of those trees was home to birds, to squirrels, to insects, to mushrooms, to all manner of life forms are being sustained on each one of those trees. And each one of those 50 trees that was cut down to build your house, to make the four boards, the two by fours, the structural members, the siding, each one of those trees produces 15 times the mass of the mouse

Starting point is 02:24:32 in oxygen every day. So what do you think nature cares more about? The tree or the one ounce mouse? The tree or the one ounce mouse. Think about that. What has greater value to the ecosystem? The mouse you saved or the tree? I would think so, but I don't wanna force that opinion on people, but just when you analyze it, that's a cosmic perspective on decisions that you're making. I don't see you not buying a wooden house because you're worried about the trees that were made from it.

Starting point is 02:25:12 What it comes down to at some level, and how about the people who buy line caught tuna? Do you know why they do that? Because if it's not line caught, it's probably caught in a net. Net dragging sometimes brings in a dolphin, which are air breathing and they suffocate and die. All right, so I don't know whether they want to kill dolphins. So they buy line caught, so I'm thinking, all right, you save the dolphin, but what about the tuna?

Starting point is 02:25:37 Okay. You're eating the tuna. All right. Who cares about the tuna? They only care about the dolphin. They only care about the, well, why do you only care about the dolphin? They've got a good personality well, why do you only care about the dolphin? Because they've got a good personality.

Starting point is 02:25:46 Okay, wait, because they're cute. And they're mleprous. But wait a minute, if you're eating meat, you're probably also eating cow and pig and lamb that are also mammals. Okay, so what I try to do in the book is expose your opinion to other ways of looking at what it is you're doing. When you're done, I don't want to stop you from doing what you're doing, but if you do

Starting point is 02:26:11 it, I want it to be fully informed. And it's a whole other chapter on conflict and resolution where there are these tropes that liberals lob onto right wingers. You know, say, oh, everyone on the right is anti-science, and they're this, and they cite the denial of climate change, which is an existential threat, that's definitely a denial of some or all mainstream science. Also, occasionally, there's denial of evolution,

Starting point is 02:26:35 that typically is the extreme religious group. Okay, so the liberals want to feel like they have the high-road, but they don't. Because let's look for who is taking homeopathic medicine. That is deeply within the liberal community. This medicine has no curative molecules in it at all, having been diluted into that state. So there's like feather energy and chakra realignment

Starting point is 02:27:03 and all manner of Thinking and philosophies that are deeply embedded in the liberal world view and to embrace Them requires you reject some or all mainstream science associated with it It requires that and so, the liberal cannot claim the high ground. This includes attitudes towards GMOs, for example. If you look at the percentage of scientists who are all in for GMOs, it closely matches the percentage of Republicans who are all in for GMOs and the percentage of liberals who are infragemos is way less. So what's happening here, they'll cite well because of big pharma and this and that, whatever,

Starting point is 02:27:53 but they're not aligned with the science on it. That's my point. If you want to say you're with the scientists, then you'll be with the scientists on GMOs and they're not. All right, so it requires rejection of summer all mainstream science. So the trope, their anti-science and we're not, is false, objectively false, statistically in the communities. How about the one about being family values? That's a common trope law against liberals by conservatives. Well, wait a minute, what would be a measure of family value?

Starting point is 02:28:26 How about staying married? How about that? Do you know the state with the lowest divorce rate in the country? It's Massachusetts. By far the lowest divorce rate. Do you know the highest divorce rate? It's in the book, something like eight out of the 10

Starting point is 02:28:39 highest divorce rate states voted red in the last elections. How about teenage pregnancies out of wedlock, pregnant and teenage pregnancies? Red states lead the pack in those numbers. The only presidents of the United States who have ever been divorced have been Republican presidents. And that's of course,unnel Reagan and Ronald Reagan. So who are you to say and claim the high road of family values here when certain objective measures

Starting point is 02:29:16 argue against it? And so what I'm saying is you can cherry pick it and say, oh, the liberals, they're into like, loose sex or whatever you can cherry pick it and say, oh, the liberals, they're into like loose sex or whatever. You cherry pick that because liberals are staying married longer than you are. Okay? So in there, I'm just approaching all these

Starting point is 02:29:34 as a scientist would. Look at the data, look at the evidence you might have bias against. And now let me show it to you, reveal it to you. So there's a chapter on gender and identity, a chapter on life and death, body and mind, truth and beauty. Is all this that you're saying? I'm looking at the website right now, by the way,

Starting point is 02:30:00 divorce rates, who's at the top, who's at the lowest? Look at the highest divorce rate state. It's a red state. It's been read every for every major election Arkansas Arkansas Oklahoma Nevada, New Mexico on the lowest one is main DC Dakota, Pennsylvania, New York Illinois No, Massachusetts should be in there Massachusetts is on that list as well. Yeah, very interesting. Yeah It's contradictions of both sides. Correct. Say, relax. Correct. Because they repeat it. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:30:28 And once you to then think it's true. Is it cognitive dissonance or is it hypocrisy? It's it's it's cognitive bias. I don't want to say dissonance. It's just bias. You want something to be true. So you repeat it often enough until you book. People who follow you think it's true. It's like saying we live in a Christian nation that's actually an objectively false statement. Repeated enough that you get enough people saying it on political platforms and talk shows in all manner of things.

Starting point is 02:30:54 Well, don't say it. Don't say it. I don't know if you know Riza Slimes. Yes, I do. He believes the US is a Judeo-Christian. No, it's a joke between us. Oh, okay. If he's watching us right now, he's, Oh, after it. It's my, yeah, yeah. If he can say it. I'll take a deep heart on you. He can say it.

Starting point is 02:31:11 But there's no mention of Jesus in our constitution. There's not even mention of God in the document that forms our country. You would think if we knew we were self-aware as a Christian nation, there'd be some references to Jesus who is the foundation of Christianity, but there isn't. There's one mention of God in the Constitution, but it's a very minor one, it's extremely minor.

Starting point is 02:31:34 What was it? That the very end. Anald Dominic 1789, that's the only mention, which is the tradition of this AD, that's the year, so you put it in. So there are there are there's other evidence and so So in other words buy the book okay What it is no really put the link in a description as well and and and and Neil I also show tonight. Don't you talk about your show tonight?

Starting point is 02:32:02 I'm in a plug for it. I Did the audio book I'm buying the audio No, if you get stuck in traffic. That's the way I calculated how long it would take to hear the audio book in Los Angeles Yeah, stuck in traffic one day It's a three-day audio book for a five-week in L.A traffic. Black matter. Yeah, dark matter. Dark matter. Yeah. So tell us about tonight's show,

Starting point is 02:32:29 Broward Center. You think it's live right now? Yeah, we're live right now. Yeah, tonight I'm in a Fort Lauderdale at the Broward Center, giving a public talk to like thousands of people. On one of my favorite subjects, which is it's titled an astrophysicist goes to the movies.

Starting point is 02:32:43 I love that. The sequel. And it's like dozens of movie clips. Yes. All kinds of movie clips. Well, I highlight the science they got right, if they got it right, and the science they got wrong. Movies like, there's movies like, like Harry Potter is in there.

Starting point is 02:32:57 Yeah. There's the Wizard of Oz, there's Love Story, there's... Where do I begin to tell a story of how? Where do I begin to think? I would sing it, but I don't have your voice. You've got that DVD. So it's one of my funnest subjects to talk about, and the audience is also love it,

Starting point is 02:33:16 because they've all seen these movies typically. And Top Gun? So, oh, the Top Gun movie, I tweeted about that. That's not in tonight. I might mention it. Yeah, the Top Gun ejects at Mach 10.5 and just walks back to base with a slightly dirty face. He would have been squashed by the shockwaves at Mach 10.5.

Starting point is 02:33:41 The way a bug hits a windshield. Wow. Yeah, he wouldn't have survived a fraction of a second ejecting from, by the way, do you know why airplanes have pointy noses that go faster than sound? Because you need to, because the air does not part for you, you have to cleave the air,

Starting point is 02:33:59 because you're moving faster through the air than the air can tell other air molecules that you're doing that. Because the air than the air can tell other air molecules that you're doing that. Because the air molecules communicate with each other at the speed of sound. If you're moving through it faster than the speed of sound, you have to cleave the air to make that happen. And so all your front surfaces have to be pointy. If he ejects, he is in no such shape or vehicle, and he basically is blown apart by the,

Starting point is 02:34:27 he's going 7,000 miles an hour. He doesn't survive this. What a movie though, okay. What a movie that was. By the way, did you like Avatar? So I saw it. I felt a little long. Okay.

Starting point is 02:34:40 I thought it was 40 minutes long. I'm being serious with you. Yeah, seriously. Three hours and 12 minutes. You could have done it in a 20.50. Yeah,. I'm being serious with you. Yeah, three hours and 12 minutes. You could have done it in a 20.5 hours. Yeah, so here's my issue with it. I prefer the first avatar only because there was much more discussion

Starting point is 02:34:53 about the culture of the people's. And I'd like to learn about the little USB ponytail that connects to the plants and the animals. I thought maybe a follow on movie would get deeper into that rather than just be about warfare. You know the Volody shot three and four? Yeah, I know. Yeah, it was all happened at the same time.

Starting point is 02:35:13 Oh really? Yeah, this was a blast. The book below, order it, read it, contradictions on both sides. If you're in for order. It doesn't lean. You think it's leaning one way or not. It doesn't.

Starting point is 02:35:24 I felt that it's not. It's not like it's going't lean. You think it's leaning one way or not. It doesn't. I felt that it's not. I felt like it's going. It's great. It's what we In America. Yeah, as it should be. Oh, yeah, as it should be. Not red, not blue red, white and blue. No, the purple. Okay, you're in a state. You used to be purple. Now it's red. Anyways, uh, Neil, by the way, this anti-vax thing. Yeah, the liberals were the OG anti-vaxers because they all didn't trust big pharma and all the rest of it. That's what's confusing. And then under Trump, there was this freedom, I don't think. I don't think. And then the right wing started and then they met on the other, between the fence. You know what happened to them? And then they both together were at because they shared a mission statement. Yeah, so the right the so the right was labeled anti-vax the left wasn't pro-vax. It was anti-Trump

Starting point is 02:36:06 They're both anti so whatever Trump was against they were they were four so you know yeah Anyways, appreciate you for coming out. This was a blast a I think we've been together for nearly three hours And it felt like five minutes. Oh, God. I got a guy. Yeah, take me down. I got to do this He probably thought I you guys ate me or something. You're in the fall right now. You're in the fall right now. This is a fault. This is a fault.

Starting point is 02:36:29 Hey, if you enjoy, just give it a thumbs up, subscribe and we'll see you again tomorrow. Home team podcast. Take care everybody. Bye bye bye.

PBD Podcast - Neil deGrasse Tyson | PBD Podcast | Ep. 223

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