PBD Podcast - Pablo Escobar's Drug Pilot - Roger Reaves | PBD Podcast | EP 152

Episode Date: May 3, 2022

In this episode, Patrick Bet-David is joined by Adam Sosnick and Roger Reaves. TOPICS 0:00 - Start  1:50 - How Roger Reeves got into drug smuggling  12:00 - The time Roger almost got caught  18:00 - First time Roger got arrested  20:00 - How Roger is such a likeable guy  22:00 - Did the jail time turn him off/Why does he keep coming back  25:00 - Roger's connection to Barry Seal 31:00 - Middle man/The Big Phone Call 36:00 - Why did his wife not stop/the money/what keeps him coming back  38:00 - Roger's connections to Pablo/Ochoa 45:00 - Barry Seal 48:00 - How Roger got caught in the USA 49:00 - Barry connections to USA/CIA- Who killed Barry 53:00 - Run-ins with the mob 55:00 - Time with Pablo & Ochoa 59:00 - PBD's interview's with 'criminals' 1:04:35 - Relationship with Pablo 1:11:00 - Death penalty/Half of men don’t deserve to be locked up 1:18:00 - The power of a father 1:29:00 - Does he have any regrets 1:35:00 - Toughest questions his kids asked him William Roger Reaves is an American pilot who was one of the most prolific drug smugglers in history. He worked for Pablo Escobar and the Medellín Cartel. Reaves employed Barry Seal as a pilot in many of his drug-smuggling operations. In his memoir, Smuggler (2016), Reaves claims that Seal paid millions in bribes to the Clintons when Bill Clinton was governor of Arkansas in order to land planes carrying cocaine at Mena, Arkansas. Buy Roger Reaves' book Smuggler: https://amzn.to/3MBTWJQ Visit Roger Reaves' online at: https://bit.ly/3F5UuoM Text: PODCAST to 310.340.1132 to get added to the distribution list To reach the Valuetainment team you can email: [e-mail] --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/pbdpodcast/support

Are you out of your mind? Here's the debate. You're upset. They're saying we believe you. This is it. No, I thought that. Gentlemen, we're live. All right, so folks, I've interviewed a lot of interesting people. Today, this man's fully qualified in that category. William Roger Reeves, but we'll call him roger highest paid drug pilot in a

history uh... work with uh... uh... pavela scabar ochoa got arrested at over thirty years in jail in twenty six different prisons seven different countries four different, and he escaped five times. There is some kind of a connection with a man named William, some column bill, some column William, but I think his name is William Bill Clinton.

And Arsian saw it. We'll talk about him. We'll talk about the city that they almost named the movie after the city, right? Menna, they almost named it. It was written as menna. It was written as menna and then they changed it. And stories left and right reportedly was responsible for $5 billion worth of cocaine entering the United States. Some interesting opinions about Pablo, some interesting opinions about Ochoa at the time

Pablo being the seventh richest man in the world, but who was counting his money anyways. But aside from that, I mean, listen, 50, 60 million dollars of earnings in the 80s, there's a lot of stories I'm so curious to get into with that being said, Roger Reeves, thank you so much for being a guest on the podcast. It's a pleasure, thank you.

And by the way, your voice is insane. I can listen to that voice all day. It's a radio voice. It's a pleasure. You know, the way you speak. It's incredible. I'm from Iran. So my accent is a different kind of an accent. Yours is from Georgia. I prefer yours.

Oh, thank you. It's like classy, but also ready to party at any moment. Absolutely. Let's go. So, you know, some of us wake up one day and we say I want to go to real estate some wake up. They say I want to be a cop I want to be a bodybuilder. I want to be a financial advisor. I want to be a nurse. I want to be a doctor Who wakes up and says you know what? I want to be the highest paid drug pilot in history. How does that happen? It doesn't happen like that at all

So it's not like when you were a kid you said when I grow up I want to be a farmer. I wanted to have a big plantation of tobacco and then I started flying and I wanted to be a missionary aviation fellowship pilot. I wanted to fly the missionaries in and out of the jungle. Yes, seriously. That's why I learned to fly. Wow. Your heart was always in the right place. Oh, I understand. Yeah, I mean, I'm not a preacher, but I could fly those sick people in now, the jungle, in the missionaries, and bring them their mail. And there was a Niche St. started it, and with a little plane, and he'd put a rope down,

and put the bucket and read it to missionaries' feet, and they'd put their note in it, and he'd put them some penicillin in it and then mail and bring it back out. And they started that until they could cut out strips in the jungle. And I thought, wow, what kind of wonderful flying that would be. And then later on in the first story, my book, I tell when I was shot down over the Amazon and I was 11 days in who rescued me, except missionary aviation fellowship. Full circle. Full circle.

Full circle. Full circle. The pilots. Did you, like, somehow meet a pastor that was smoking too much wheat and snorting too much coke and then you got connected? Is that kind of how this happened? Not at all. I just read the book. I thought, I like to do that. Jungle Pilots, name of the book, wonderful book.

And they made a movie, The Point of the Spear. Point of the Spear. Interesting. He was killed in Ecuador when he landed on a sand bar with the Indian people. Wow. I'm assuming you've been to Ecuador as well. Yes.

Yes. Beautiful place. Wow. So beautiful. Beautiful place. So you're going, you're doing what you're doing, and then you become a pilot, and then somehow, somewhere you get affiliated with these folks.

It happened so gently. Let me just tell you how, please, these things can come about. I was, I had a farm in Georgia and I put in 36,000 lay-in chickens and pre--promoted it, and the price of feed went up, and the price of eggs went down until every time I picked up a dozen eggs, I was losing five cents, and I was losing the farm. So I started turning that chicken feed into moonshine whiskey, and I made a thousand gallons a week, and you can read over, I got all the bullets at me trying to kill me and blew my steel up and I lost everything. So when I quit running, I was in California. So I went to work in the construction, worked that a couple of years, and then I got on the

Redondo Beach Fire Department. And so I was on that five years. And it was a good job. It took, it was hard to get on. It was like winning the lottery to get on it. But, I had a little paint and crew and I had bringing an antique from Missouri back in Selonum and I was making quite a bit of money. And one day, I was reading a National Geographic magazine as I went across country with the guy. And it said Mercury in Mexico

was a dollar and it was $13 in the United States and I said I should bring some of that back when I go down in my little airplane. He said oh man you would have brought some of that marijuana back. I said I don't know nothing about it. I heard about the kid smoking it. He said it's the hottest thing you've seen. What years? What years are you? 1973. Okay. So all the cool kids are smoking that marriage wanna. Just starting. Yeah. So I said, well tell me about it. So he introduced me to a fellow,

I said, you got an airplane? I said, yeah. And he said, would you be interested? What do you pay? So he says, let me introduce you to somebody. So he calls somebody and fellow came over and said, I give you $10,000. And I said, well, throw somebody a hay in there.

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Hey, that's the nickname. That's where you're, well, I mean, you look like a little bit of hay to me and the back, you, it's through somebody I hate in there. Hey, that's the nickname. That's where you're wild. I mean, you look like a little bit of hate of me and the back seat of my airplane, it's one of those big deal and I come home and landed and give them their stuff and they give me $10,000 in a bag and I brought it home and shook it on the bed and the baby got $100 bills

and crawling around and my wife put her hand over her mouth and I said, let's go out to dinner. Let's celebrate. So then I said, wow, now I don you know, that's the celebrate. So then I said, wow, now that, I don't know about that. That wasn't nothing. So I went to a lawyer and I put $100 to Bill and I said, Mr. Lawyer, what would happen to me if I got caught bringing some marijuana

across the border in my plane? He said, what's your criminal history? I stopped never had a speeding ticket. Not even a parking ticket. He said, you work on a fire department? Yes, sir, I work on. He said, man, you would get probation. At the very worst, you would get one year

and spend four much raking leaves. So I thought, no, that's the business for me. So I bought a Sessna 207 that would care 1100 pounds and I'm making $40,000 when I want to go down. So I brought my mother out from Georgia to Disneyland and picked her up my new Cadillac and took her to Disneyland. She said, what's she doing for her? I said, I'm holding pot, ma'am. You told her? Yeah. And she said, how much you making? I said, I'm making $40,000. Any day I want to go down there.

She said, what do they do if they catch you? And told her what all you said and I said what do you think? She said do you need a copilot That makes all the sense in the world So my difference Like go for it. Absolutely. Were you giving your mom money at this point? Yes, I took care of my mother. I was gonna know my family. Yes How old are you different would have been if if mom said don't do it. How different would it been if she said, you should do it. It wouldn't make any difference. It wouldn't make a difference, got it.

She would have said it or not. You would have done it anyway. Oh yeah, I was worried about that. Why do you ask that? Because parenting obviously is. I'm just curious. I'm curious. If he was asking for confirmation or if he was asking for,

like I remember I was working at Bally's in Chatsworth and Chatsworth at the time was 80% the porn. And the guy comes in with a pretty girl and they're sitting there saying, how much money do these guys pay you from up? I said, they pay me, you know, three or four grand a month. He says, how would you like to make that every weekend? I had no idea what he was talking about.

Then he says, he says, well, you know, you look like you'd make a hell of an actor. I said, really? You've never seen me act. He says, you just got the personality for it. I said, great. I said, are they figuring me out in Hollywood? He said, yeah.

Like, the action this is going so he says uh... you know you ever done adult films as a like like movies for adult people like you know like ready to are he says no like adult adult so what are you talking about is this point is i'm not gonna do point is it what if you ever wanted to would pay for grand movie so i go home after you did your first movie what happened why i got paid for grand but but i went home and I told my dad I said that so let me take what happened to me today and then I told my dad my dad's like if you ever do it,

yeah, you can never call me or dad again. Really? I said that. What are you gonna say if your friend see this thing that's Gabriel's son? Think about it if your older friend see this I'm gonna say that's Gabriel son. I wouldn't you be proud of that. He says, no, I don't want you to touch yourself. No, that's the way you saw his counsel. No, I don't want you to. That's the only way. You saw his counsel. No, I didn't. I was teasing him. Oh, gosh, of course I was giving him a hard time, but that's the source.

I was curious enough that was a conversation with mom to see what mom would say. So, okay, so he says, so she says, 40,000 do you need a copilot? That's right. At any time you can go and make 40 can come back. Right. So, what do you do then?

You just keep doing them. Keep doing them. I want to make $300,000 and go back to farm. And I got $300,000 right quick. Yeah. And my wife says, you must not remember like I do. All that heat and bugs and rattlesnakes, ho and indigging.

She didn't want to go back. So we stayed. Hmm. Stayed what? Stayed in California. In Rodondo Beach. Yes, sir. You didn't want to go back to Georgia. No, you don't California. In Rodondo Beach. Yes. You didn't want to go back to Georgia.

No, you don't want to do that. Your goal was 300,000. And you got the goal. Bam. And you said, and how long did it take to get that? A couple of weeks, months? I reckon two or three months, probably. Two or three months.

So in three months, you reached your goal. Yes. And you just, the taste of all that money was too sweet to turn up, you know, turn up. It was just nothing. It was just like there was nothing between United States and Mexico, but a barbed wire fence. I mean, and you couldn't even find that. Just not flew across real low when it didn't matter. So just come and just one run after the other.

So was there a goal to say, babe, once we make this much money, I'll stop. Or was it just a full on addiction to saying next one, next one, next one, let's get some more. Because I knew he said $300,000 and I would stop. Yeah, well one, next one. Let's get some more. Cause I knew you said $300,000 and I would stop. Yeah, well, I would have. I mean, if I went to the farm, but then you there

and you sit there with an airplane, I'm still working on the fire department. I got four days off. I'd go down there and do it and come back and it was just nothing. It was absolutely just, I'd go down and go fishing. And, and, and, and you fire department guys are not asking you, they're like, how do you actually get the catalact? Oh, yeah, they reported me. Oh, they report you

Well that didn't that didn't matter on on Late load 13 I had that little feeling in my stomach like ding ding ding this guy walk came We had to land it a I landed a little 900 foot strip if you could call it that on the end of a river in the sand And and there was water coming through and a little waterfall-foot strip, if you could call it that, on the end of a river in the sand. And there was water coming through, and a little waterfall, and a river about knee-deep. And I'd go to and brush my teeth and take fuel, they had fuel and fill me up. And then a young fellow named Robert, anyhow, a young fellow would get in the airplane with me, Pedro.

And we would go over to where he would tell me to go on a highway maybe 20, 30 miles away and they had two trucks and machine guns on it and I'd land between those trucks and they had like a bucket brigade. They'd put the marijuana in the airplane and I'd shake hands with all of them and take off and they'd be 20, 30 cars parked waiting and highway patrolman in there with no new light zone and I'd take over that and go home and unload it. But on day 13 on the morning, we got in a plane and it, and pow!

I thought a tire blew out and I looked. And he said, please see a project, please see a, please see a, and it dawned on me. But we only had 400 feet from the end of the runway. And I, because I'd parked down about halfway, it's just it, daylight, I'd just brushed my teeth in the river and these men around there.

And I just put, it was a Cessna 207, a big, big stretch Cessna. And when I got to the end of the runway, I just pulled it up and when I did, there was four of them that just riddled that airplane with 4 AK-47, they put 80 bullet holes in it. She hit me across the top of my head, not my kneecap off and knee into my toe, and then shot his foot nearly off. And so I thought, I mean, when she was all out and they'd hit the tank on the other side and the gasoline was just gushing in on me, and they hit the

strut right by my head and the battered is only my face, hundreds of pieces of lead just spatushing in on me. And they hit the strut by my head, and the battered is only my face. Hundreds of pieces of lead just spat it all over me. And I thought I was gonna die. I really did. I thought I was gonna burst into flames with all that gasoline. And I just pulled the power, and it went to hit that river,

and it looked like huge turtles, the way the rocks were formed, I never see it. And when I hit the wings came off, and the next time the nose came under the plane and stopped in the water. And I was knocked out and he's shaking me, Roger, come on, Roger, come on, so we jumped out and they were still shooting the plane and come on, hit well on top of the, on top of the radio, I had taped in a holster a 9mm pistol. You were ready. No, I just had that in case I crashed.

Somewhere you would like to have something in a jungle. I didn't have it for people or nothing. I just had something kind of, I don't know. Just like a little survival kit. Self defense. Yeah, so anyway, I took that pistol and they was running down the runway toward me. I shot a few shots, popped a few caps and they ran into the stones in the big boulders everywhere.

And we started running and I saw that Pedro's foot was nearly shot off. I mean, it was just shot through the, and I took my t-shirt off and it wasn't even bleeding, but it was just torn out, I guess, the stress. And we went up the hill through the cactus and there was an old donkey. Charlottes, Charlottes. And he called that donkey and we got on in road. And road, we came to a little house and there was some people and they went for help. We spent their old day long. And that's a heck of a story. I can finish if you want me to. Then what happened to how did you get out of it? I thought, all right, I'll close our face. And so there was a little house. I say usually in a man plowing with a cow and a ox. A cow and a little mew. The harness over him and

he was plowing and so Pedro talked to him and they put us in the house and the woman put cloth and put diesel fuel all over us to keep the flies and the bugs off and we sat there all day long. And about dark, about 20 horses and mules come into that yard. And there was a doctor there, Dr. Benjamin Soso, and he got in there and he out of us lugging my foot and he was trying to find it. And he gave us more fiend and shot us up and he was tetanus shot and whatever. He said, you got to get out of here. They got roadblocks everywhere looking and they think the Americans in here and dead because of all the blood that was in the plane. So they put us on mues and horses and we rode to a road. Do we come to a dirt road? And there was a big truck,

there was a tin wheeler, and it was loaded with corn in the ear. And they dug holes in that corn. And all those Mexican guys got on there with the big hats and surreptives and I guess it kind of cold and we put us under the corn and that truck was just in the corn would fall over and they kept pushing my face out and we came finally to the highway and they got us out and we got stopped three times by it. Did you pay these guys off or no? No, they were just they were just they were just they you they just just wanted to be helpful. Oh, yes

They just did they knew who you were though Did they have a head to do they go but anyhow that wonderful people that got under Yeah, but they they knew you were on the run. Oh, yes They knew you were on the inside with who there's a Mexican cartel at this point. No, no There's no such thing as that it It was just country folks, just farmers, and it was growing pot, but these were just people just helping us in that Dr. Benjero and so so.

But they got a taxi for me to go to Guadalajara because they said they got all the roads blocked north. So they got a dwarf guy to become, and he had a new car, and he talked, and they brought me up with the pills and Banged up and they got some clothes for me and I remember that night we talked all night long And again, I said, do you have any children? Oh, Cicin, you know, I have a beautiful wife and three boys Let me tell you how I got my beautiful wife Dora

He said you see me no girl would look at me. But, it was the girl in the village that I had my eye on. And she was playing in a band. She was playing the flute at the back, and I grabbed her and pulled her into the yard and my mother hipped her skin in the house. And I told her I love her, and we shit their own night, but she wouldn't look at us. And the next morning, senior, we had to let her go. So she went to her father, and she knocked on look at us. And the next morning, Senior, we had to let her go. So she went to her father and she knocked on the door and he said, get away from here.

You prostitute, you've been away with all night with some man, you're not a daughter of mine. And she walked away with her head down and I said, do let's go talk to the priest and Senior, that's how I got in there. That's like my mother and my mother. Wow. Well, I'm not through.

Let me just just a little bit more. And he said, and then one year later, we had a beautiful baby boy, and I had a forward. And we named him forward. And the next year, I said, you know, you won't believe it, but we had a beautiful baby another boy. And I had a dog. And we named him dog. And I know, you won't believe this.

But three years later, we had another boy and I was driving a new chivaly and that damn priest wouldn't name him chivaly. I had to teach him to drive to get him to name him chivaly. And that's how I got my three boys, four dodge and chivaly. Unbelievable. Can you imagine him and your kids after three cars? It's kind of like four brothers, Dallas, Denver, and Elizabeth.

But, awesome. So, okay, so from there, you didn't get arrested. You didn't do time away. So, what was the first time you got arrested? At what point was the first time you got arrested? After I lost my airplane, I hired a man to fly another airplane. He came down and I gave him $5,000 into him and landed at a feedlot there south of Hermesia.

And he mistakenly landed at the international airport and tried to pay off. And he had my phony name in his pocket. And I was at the hotel, a nice hotel. Nice gentleman came over and arrested me and they put me in jail there in Mazatlan, in prison. And first time. That was first time, and it was a terrible time. They wanted me to confess.

So there's be a confession out of me. Is this the time they tortured you? Yes, got it. This is the Hotsaw story. Yeah. This is the Hotsaw story. You This is the hot sauce. Uh-huh. You may want to tell the audience your hot sauce story because I know you're not a fan of hot sauce. I've no story. So, uh, you know, first off, they took your head into some

sales order and to you just, and when you inhale, it just explodes your head. And then they beat you and, and after some days, and you, they could took all the people out of it and you could hear them beating and crying and beating them. And I was black and blue, but it was no more than in a good fight you would have. It wouldn't bother me that bad. But they took me out naked and chained me up and buttered my bone, and then they filled it full of hot chili pepper. Holy moly.

And I did talk ugly. I died. I thought he found you. Holy moly and I did talk ugly 25 I'll ever find you that ever like every time you go to a restaurant and they say would you like some hot sauce That I completely mess with you for the rest of your life for good in the hot side. I believe in low Well spicy food, but there's a little more to it then they hung a dead man in the sale with me And it was just a little sale in July and it was really hot. And the man was frozen, and he was wrapped in strips of newspaper like a mummy. And after a while the formaldehyde started to melt and it looked like he was crying. Hang on the meat hook and he's opened up so I could see his liver.

And then the fluid started running out of him and went on the floor and up. The place was not even six foot square. And I put my face under the door so I could breathe. And as I breathed in fresh air, I went to sleep. And then I'm also breathing that fluid, it was in him. And I had pink-flined pigs, so I know where Walt Disney got his ideas from. And when I came to, I didn't know which was real and which was a dream. So this is the first time you were arrested.

And all these stories are happening in Mexico. Yes, correct. Oh, we are. So you haven't gotten involved in Colombia. No, I didn't ask for at this point. At this point. At this point, I didn't get to Colombia. So you're in jail.

The hot cell story. The dead man in the cell. Are you, this, like right now, you're just like this happy, go lucky, like 0% do I feel drug smuggler criminal vibe out of you. Whatsoever, it's very apparent how likeable you are. Are you have the same demeanor at that time of your life? Or... Oh no, I memorized his face and I was hoping

to look him up one day. So, you're being serious. I'll probably not, but I mean, you just, you're thinking that I would do it. I'm like, sure, you're not questioning about would do it. I would do it, too. You look, certainly. But you said what I'm saying about his personality now. You've interviewed countless amounts of, I'll just call them illegal entrepreneurs. His personality is not very common for that type of profession.

That's a strength, though. That's a very big strength because you're, you know, when you're the guy that it comes across as being harmless, he could harm anybody. That's the most powerful guy in the room. Really? Oh my god, because it's Caes or Soce, Soce, Mara, I'm listening to them all, I'm thinking about his usual suspect. Yeah.

And all the stories, I'm like, where's he picking up? I'm looking behind me, thinking some of this stuff is coming, but, Krav is your great storyteller, and you know that, your wonderful storyteller. But, so at this point, has the jail time, have these experiences, 99% of people, if they had that hot sauce experience that you had not hot sauce, that keeps saying hot sauce, the experience that you had, they're probably like, you know what babe, I think I'm done. I'm going to go back to redundant.

Exactly. Let's go back to, you know, and just kind of hang out. Why keep coming back to it, especially that close call? I don't know. It didn't, you know, when it was out, the people that were, where I was shot down from the load, they, I had paid them $17,000. So they gave them money after a month or so. I got the word out.

And my wife came down and was trying, oh, oh, boy, I mean, she can tell the story about going between those sales and visiting me and the vis-a-vis day anyway, somebody come and paid the $17,000 and I was taking out the back door of the jail and put into a brand new pickup with a horses head only then taken to the bank and the banker told me because he spoke English that this walk-in has paid them $17,000, Roberto, Roberto has paid somebody in a jail to get you out.

Now that's paid for. And so when I caught that airplane, it was fourth of July, in 1984. And when the wheels came up, I thought, really did get out of there. At that time, how much money you have in the bank? How much cash you got in the bank? This is $74, maybe half a million dollars. Half a million dollars. $74, half a million dollars, like $4 million today.

It's $3 million dollars. It's real money that she has. Sure, I got to retire. But did you, but this story was prompted based on when I asked you a question about the firefighters, like co-workers, I don't know what prompted you to tell in that story because what I was trying to find out is you're still a firefighter in Rodondo Beach,

did the firefighters start realizing why is this guy pulling up in a catalack? What's he doing that they start asking questions that they start reporting was there an investigation or note they played it cool? I know that there was one fireman there that went to the police or went to the DEA or read that transcripts. So one guy went. One guy went. Did that do anything? Did that that need to do anything or no I thought and and I really thought for all those years that they had to catch you and they never did catch me How long in US until they caught you from 1973? Oh, they never did catch me. I was for 12 years I was until 1982

But for they arrested me and they charged me with continuing criminal enterprise I was number 41 that was ever charged with that horrible But for the rest of me and they charged me with continuing criminal enterprise. I was number 41 that was ever charged with that horrible charge. It's titled 21 841, called Continuing Criminal Enterprise. And you have to manage three organizations with five people in each organization and it cares up to life and prison. And wow, John Gotti was number 42. I gave him where 41, he was 42.

He died in there. I gave up the money and they dropped that charge and it gave me, I think I choose any two marijuana charges and income tax. And I got a total of 35 years when only five years sentence and 20 and 30 years of probation parole. So I got out total of 35 years when only five years sentence and 30 years of probation parole. So I got out after a couple of two and a half years, caught out after two and a half years. And that's when Barry Seale came to me. I'm skipping way ahead and he says, I'm coming out tonight, Ronald Reagan's blue eyes

was on the television. We have absolute proof that the communist send and he's the government is in the cocaine running running business and the phone rang and bear said, I'm coming out. But I come way ahead. I jumped many years in advance. They're telling that. Now for people that you may not know, Barry Ceele, as if you want to put up the movie American made so they know what movie American made played by Tom Cruise. Did you see, have you seen a movie or not? Yes. It's a great movie, by the way. You think so?

I thought it was a good movie. I mean, obviously the story of a... You're not a fan? Oh, it was just terrible. It was really. Oh, yeah. Well, of course you would say that because it's your life, meaning you lived it.

So you know more details than the guys. It was just stupid, I give you. Oh, could you got $30 million in your airplane? You're gonna bet $10. You can't take off because the runway's too short. Who could even think of such a thing? You're gonna put guns to his head and take his sunglasses. That just pure crazy. And then all these planes running through the, yeah, I, I pioneered that course

through the, through the oil wheels. And they're going to talk to the DEA. How, how you going to know what channel they want? Just like, it's going to go different. So you're saying a lot of that movie was just kind of far fetched on the leave. Somebody, somebody setting them a rocking chair and read something and said, how could it have been? Did you look at Tom and say he reminds me of Barry or not at all? Oh, not at all. Really? Nothing Barry looked like, look like a stacheman. Barry looked like somebody should have been a governor or a senator. Like a Clinton, like a Bill Clinton type of even good looking yeah and really smart well spoken all beautiful smoking he just general southern gentleman nice and man as you would have a mate

yes really you so so you guys you guys get hooked up at this point who who has more power and more money between the two of you or is a different kind of power and money that you work completely for me. I paid him a salary. So Barry worked for you. You paid him a salary. Yes. And he's flying for you at this time.

That's right. Okay. We know that happened, but we've got some many years. We've jumped over there. So between those years of jumping over, what happened there? Did you have any kind of connection at this point from Mexico to now you're doing stuff

with Ochoa or Pablo? Has anything happened yet or not yet? No, nothing's happened to them until I guess 1980. But I did, I got a twin beach airplane, a friend of mine says, okay, you got shot down in your shot up. Let me buy you a twin beach. They bought me a beautiful one from the beach boys in both their airplane. That thing was lovely.

And I went to Atlanta and picked my wife up. And the red carpet was rolled out. That thing was lovely. And I went to Atlanta and picked my wife up. And the red carpet was rolled out. That thing was just absolutely. It's like that red one over on the right. Back then that was so nice. And I still like that best of all of the airplanes. I flew. And yes, and so then I could hold about 2,500 pounds. And I just hauled load after load after load. And I started Operation Star Trek. And they put these trucks on the little hills all across the border from Galveston to, to Yawana.

But then I would go out in middle of Bobhoff, 400 miles south of San Diego, and go out two or 300 miles and come in behind the islands of Santa Barbara, and come up and go out in the desert. I don't know, just never had any problem whatsoever. So it looked like I had a license. How many people were working for you at that time? Nobody.

There's still a one-man show. There's still one-man show. So this is always... So always was. This is still a one-man show. So at this time, are you having the big life? Do you live in a big house? Do you have the nice clothes? Are you partying with the big life? Do you live in a big house? Do you have the nice clothes?

Are you partying with the right people? Are you being invited to celebrity stuff like that? Or, no, you're living a very low key. Nobody knows, it's like the millionaire next door or instead it's a traffic or next door. Nobody would know who you are. Is that kind of how it was or not? I don't know kind of a mixture.

We had a nice home in Santa Barbara. In a ranch, a really nice home. What is what is that nice home mean to when it was $180,000 back then? Kind of like $15 million now. Okay. So that's a really nice home. Isn't really nice. Yeah. $50 million home. Okay. And on a on a firefighter salary. No, well, listen, I quit the fire department and we moved up Santa Barbara. My wife found a house and I said you know we can't buy hundred seven thousand dollars how we gonna hide a house we hide airplanes and ships you can certainly we can have a house yeah so by the way this whole time you've

been with your wife yes same wife same wife in and out of jail everything you been together 60 years 60 years What, we were married 58. We were sweetheart for a year and a half before that. Yeah, I know how it goes. All right. And how much, how much in that plane that you mentioned, how much money gets, can you, you said, 2500.

2500 tons. Pounds, pounds, not tons. 2500 pounds, I apologize. How, what is that equal in terms of what, the weight that you're moving, marijuana, cooking. And I was making from 60 to,000 to $100,000. I flew it on halves. I didn't like to buy it or sell it or load it or nothing.

I would land somebody would put it in. I would come up, kick it out, somebody pick it up and take it to him. You didn't touch anything. I didn't use it. Touch it by smell it, smoke it. So did you feel like you were criminal at this point? Or is it like, look, I'm not even touching it. I'm just a trauma Uber driver of the trafficking business.

Listen, I never felt like I was in a criminal. I'm an outlaw, but we outlaw for many things. When you break the law, now it's not even against the law. After I got out after all those 30 something years, there was a big billboard that relaxed, we deliver your marijuana to your house. You just said, I think Adams trying to get ideas. I just would, Adam's trying to get ideas on how to make that kind of

funny. They do want to buy that 50 million dollars in Santa Barbara. I did. So, okay, so at this time, you're you're like you're living large. Are you partying or you're pretty low key? No, partying. They're not a party not a part of the guy that uses the product smokes weed. Snorke or not. Don't touch it. You don't touch it. You've never touched it. It's not touching. I tried. I mean, I mean I'm not but it's not something we're like a since I get in hail Yeah, okay, Bill Clinton. Well, biggie said never get high on your own supplies

That's right. No, I'm not a drug. Yeah, I don't use it. Yeah, so okay, so this is happening So are are you are you still a middleman? Are you still not working directly? Are you still not somebody that's you know or when does the big phone call come in where you said Oh shoot, I'm officially sitting with players in the room now Well, I I like to back up and tell you one story. Sure. I bought a DC3 and I had connections down to Columbia two whole To home marijuana and that whole three three three tons a thousand miles and land on a 1700-foot strip, a wonderful, wonderful airplane there for that. What'd you pay for that, by the way, that plane?

You can put it up, Sean. 65,000. You paid 65,000 for that plane? Yes, wow. And it's worth about half a million dollars now. But anyway, I was down there and I got shot down. Shot by the Colombian jets, two jets. That was during the World Series baseball game in 1981. I got out of that plane and was 11 days in the jungle.

The other couple of guys that was in the plane, they went down the road and they spent several years in Bogota, prison. I went through the jungle and rode dugouts and whatever I could do and swim across rivers and I was 11 days and that's when I finally came to a place I could don't just I have you on Square Airplanes and Indians say, Loma Linda, Loma Linda. And finally when I got to Loma Linda, it was beautiful, like highway and World War II, airplanes sitting out there and I went up and hello, how did you get here, you know? And you don't know what this place is. This is Lomalinda Headquarters for Missionary Aviation Fellowship

for the Amazon, and they flew me out. Wonderful. Wow. By the way, we have younger listeners. This is not the same Amazon, like the Amazon company. You were talking about like Amazon Amazon. The Amazon company got to clarify nowadays, because some people think an Amazon was founded in the 80s.

It's not focused. Later on. So that happens. And then what happens at that moment? How are you getting connected with these guys? Oh, a guy came up and wanted me to know if I would have unloaded a ship with marijuana and wanted me give him $100,000 or something.

And to buy the fuel to come up in case I didn't there. So they could go back. And I thought that was a pretty good deal. But it was just a ripoff. So I went down to see him. And he didn't have the money, of course. So he took me to see a man named Fernando Correo in Medellin, Colombia, and he was up on the top floor.

And he looked like Winston Churchill, or was a kind of like, he could speak a lot of language, probably a genius from the New Testament, but he would drunk, and he stayed drunk. So that's how, and he said he paid $5,000 a kilo to anybody to transport his cocaine, but to see Martha, his wife, and so inside Sheda, a woman from Bolivia, Sonia de Atila, and high cheekbone and rabbit boots and rabbit fur coat, and she was kissing him on all cheeks and said she was going to Miami

to buy an airplane. And so he said, you have an airplane, don't you Roger for sale? So the lawyer there did, and so I said yes, and she said, what kind? I said, you have an airplane, don't you Roger for sale? So the lawyer there did. So I said, yes, he said, what kind? I said, a queen heir. Well, she perked right up, queen heir. So she said, the price and he get bumping his hand up like that.

So I made a deal to sell her the queen heir. And I had it broke down. And then it came to Panama. And she said, well, you have to go to a Santa Cruz believe you to get the money. Well, so her entourage and all got in it. We went to Santa Cruz and the police met her with the flags flying on their limousines and we went outside of a Santa Cruz and to underneath the water tank. And there was like a house made of marble, square, like a mausoleum.

And there was a fence around it and the people were all outside the fence and they were crying. And she, what's the matter with you fools? And your line is in there eating the baby. She had a mountain line and she opened it, doing running there and there was kitty, about a 200 pound mountain line, eating a baby on the floor. It almost, I mean, I won't, it was just gross. What have you been eating a baby? The maid left the baby on the floor in this mountain line and she's petting her house as eating it. What? Yes. That's the most gruesome thing, horrible thing I've ever seen in my life. It was just terrible. I mean, she

finally took it away, but the baby was eating. Done. Oh, some head and some diapers and foam left. Wow. Dude, that story is just like, yeah. So, I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story.

I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I got my story. I it was her baby and her mountain life. No, no, no, no. I'm interested about this mountain line now than Pablo Escobar. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, it was only you saw this. I'm right there when she pushed him away

and he was laying on line with all muddy mouth and she grabs him around the neck and gets him out of there. And you know, so. Roger, I know we're gonna get into Pablo Escobar. I know we're gonna get into some of those juicier stories. At any point, you're already in a Mexican jail. You're seeing babies getting eaten.

You're getting your, your, your, your, your, your, your, your, your, your, your missing a foot almost. At any point, you're saying, babe, like, is your wife not saying, honey, what are you doing? Like, this is like, live our life in California, or is the money too sweet to pass up? Did you know, looking at that time, it didn't even feel dangerous even though those things happened. How's that possible? I don't know, looking at that time, it didn't even feel dangerous, even those things happened? How's that possible? I don't know, but it just didn't. What? You're seeing people lose their lives.

You're almost losing your life and it still didn't feel dangerous. It really didn't. I mean, it's just like flying an airplane and you land on a sand bed or it's like a bush pilot and it was fun. And it was great. I mean, go down, stay in the nicest hotels in Mexico

and go fishing and fly a load back. It was just great. How much, how much shit did you see growing up as a kid? Like, did you live a rough life? Like, did you live a life where you saw, I lived in a mother and father and grandmothers living in the grandmothers. That's what it feels like. It feels like you were raised with right values.

I did, yes, of course I did. And then, so as an outlaw yourself, your, so is it the thrill? Is it the excitement? Is it money? Is it let me get a little bit more? Is it what keeps you coming back? I don't know. It was just like I wasn't afraid of it and it was a lot of money. Now I'm making $100,000 every time I want to fly an airplane down for a little bus and go fishing and come back. That was it. Yeah. So, okay, so if you want to continue with the story, so at what point do you meet Ochoa or Pablo? Okay, these guys come up after, I think it was after they DC-3 was shot down. And now I'm all right, I can't go to Columbia and I've had some trouble in Mexico too, there's things that I've skipped.

So, I'm kind of out of places to go. We went to Pakistan, Ditalooed, out of there, and I did, then went to Thailand, Ditalooed, out of there, Big 20 Tun Ludes. I'm loaded in British Columbia, flew it down in float planes to Washington State, I did. What did the Thailand deal make you, the 20 tons? I don't know, a couple million dollars, I reckon, you know?

A couple million dollars. Yeah, and I bought a system 206, reckon, you know? A couple million dollars. I bought a system 206, it was a beautiful plane, flew it down. How did they find you? Because this is pre-anything. So how are people finding you? Through what context? Not like you're on yellow pages.

Well, like you have an Instagram account on DM me. How are people finding you? Well, this guy, you know, the Thailand deal was later on with a guy named Howard Marx, that wrote Mr. Nights, you've heard of him. Yeah, you hooked me up and got it. Got it. Did shareable time. So he said, because obviously back in the day, he said, a military that was normal. So I'm thinking if the connection was any kind of a military, things like this used to happen with some of the guys that were in the military back in the days.

Military bases were a great place to smuggle drugs back in the days. Oh, he had some people that were doing it. We had some people to do it but then okay so a guy came up and and wanted me to unload a ship and then he stole the money and so I'm going after it so he introduces me to Fernando Cotareo and so then his wife says we're having a birthday party. And so he was over on the Pacific coast. And this is another story. So I flew over there in a plane,

who with a commercial plane landed on the Pacific Ocean, it was like in the jungle. I mean, it looked like he was on, as far away from civilization as you could get between Panama and Ecuador. I mean, it looked like he was on, it was far away from civilization you could get between Panama and Ecuador. And they landed, it must have been 300 people there. And that's when they was deciding, I think it was, or I know it was the beginning of the

Medigin cartel. They had ever, actresses and actors and stand up comedians and judges and police chiefs from all over. And everybody had their little bag of cocaine showing it this and the other. And the party raged for about two days. And then the nice helicopters went to flying away and the planes and left us po' folks there.

And for the, so it was Sunday. And a good portion of the gun. And I had taken some barbecue and went around the log cabin and was laying there in the hammock reading, in the M.M. case, the farth pavilion and bow, bow, and blood spattered on the book that I'm reading. I rolled out of that, out of that hammock and kept rolling until I felt safe to look up and I looked up and there was a young black man Hatsome man looked like he's about 22 25 and he was tearing the pistol out of a

Columbia and a white Columbia man's hand and he put it right between his head and went click click click click There was no more bullets in it and there was a dog there a white bulldog with a With a black spatula over his eye, and he was turning cartwheels, and the blood was flying. And I looked on the young man, he had been shot in the leg, and he was bleeding bad. And so he hobbled backwards, and I said, listen, I told him, I didn't Spanish, I'm a doctor, I was lying, but I could have stopped it because with his fireman training. So he pointed that gun at me and I didn't want that click, click, click in my face and

he hobbled on my back and I said, please man, I'm a doctor, I can help you. And he went on back down there and died. And no chronoops came out screaming, y'all the people are going to get in trouble that night. The generator went out and it was full of water and stuff and wentcans so we could have a little bit of light. So crazy story but how did you meet Pablo and so now then I meet somebody there and and he wants me to fly cocaine. So his name was Jaime Ordonis and he had had a ton of cocaine

confiscated him from him in Medellin and he had killed 16 judges. It's what I heard. So I flew down and he was supposed to put 300 kilos and I believe there's 165 in there and I gave it to a guy named Bill Barbosa and some way shot him in the stomach. He was in hospital two or three months. He's in Miami and there and I gave it to a guy named Bill Barbosa and some way shot him in the stomach. He was in hospital two or three months. He was in Miami and I thought he won't move those people anymore. So I told my friend Mario that he wanted to introduce me to him and he says, I got somebody to introduce you to. I've got somebody you need to meet. Come down. So I came down and we went to Invegada as a village just out of Medellin. And we pulled up into a little estate, like an old house, with hitching rails in front

and little stones all over. And they must have been 30 or 40 men out there waiting to talk to the Patrons. And so we was ushered right in and they was a drop dead gorgeous woman. And I mean she wanted to know if we wanted to cut from call for your tea so we had our call for you. And then we were introduced to George Ochoa, Jorge Ochoa. And he was sitting at a big desk and he was so nice. He spoke some English and he had 12 telephones, all of them with different colors. And he tell us this is New York and this is Washington and that in Seattle. He said it rings I know where they're talking from so I got salesman in that part another and he told me I wanted to know What kind of airplanes I had and what kind of experience I had crossing the border and I told him and he said we pay

$5,000 a kilo for you to bring it up and We'll put it on and our people will accept it up there So he said let me get my partner. So he was going a minute and he came back in with Pablo Escobar and Pablo Escobar and a nice looking man and a friendly and out of nice attitude to him. Shook hands, asked me the same question that he had asked me. He seemed pleased with it and that was how I met him. So I started flying.

And they would put 300 kilos on the first time. And then I said, it'll hold a lot more. But they wouldn't put it on for me. So after I don't know how many loads, I guess five loads or something, I got above the fog and I couldn't get down. And I had to land at New Orleans International Airport and bounce down that thing and the fog and set there all night with 300 kilos in there.

So the next morning the sun's come up and I'm like, I'll, and I took off and went over where I was supposed to do it and got down and I thought I'm not going to ever do that again. I had $7 million at the time and I said, I'm through. So I told Lee to the man, I give it to us and listen, man, I almost got killed, I'm not going to do it again. Whole Roger, please, please, don't you know anybody? So that's when I hired Barry Seale.

God, and then I hired another fellow at California. So I had two airlines going and I had about seven of those Panther conversions. And I had two airlines going and I had about seven of those Panther conversions. And I had two people buying cars, putting a hydraulic jacks on them and new hoses and new tires and it was just like bang, bang, bang, bang. So what do you pay in burying? What are you making every time buried flies? I would pay Barry $2,000 kilo when he was born five.

So he had five, he made a million dollars each time. And then I had to give him $50,000 for the heavy at Mina. Yet again, $50,000 said a heavy at Mina. For people that don't know who the heavy is, is this the William guy? I suppose he said, I'm having good, he told him I'm having dinner with the governor tonight. So I don't know, I never met the governor. So you never remember Clinton? No, no, okay. I never even been to Meena But but he told you that this money was going to bill no, he told me that I had it paid away all the way to the top I have it paid off completely. There's no way on worth I can get caught in Meena

And he did say a couple of times I'm gonna be I'm going to the governor matching now Where would you see him? What would you see him? Oh, I saw him all the time I had to get given saw him all the time. I had to get him giving him money all the time. But where did you see him? All over the place. No, I see him in New Orleans or kind of. He lived in Baton Rouge.

And he'd come to Miami. And I tell you a little story. He wouldn't fly again until I paid him. And it took me about three weeks to get the pay because it was a pipeline. And so he would barely make about it, not being in a good nature, really. But he'd hold one night, we went in the room, so he'd stay with my wife and I and a little baby in

the hotel room at the Omni there. And he'd hold the baby up on his big old belly and he'd take good rest. So I gave him, I paid him a million dollars and I put a package of stay-free many pads in there. And he liked that so good he made a thought for it only mental. Let me ask you a question. The story about Mina that at one point, Mina, a small city nobody knew about was getting more 10,000 dollar cash deposits than any other city in America. Was that an accurate story? I'm sure.

The shipbuilding banks on top of. And the federal government is like, why the hell does Mina have so much cash in the bank there? What's going on over here? And it kind of triggered something. Well, I went to prison. And I was in there for two years. And then Barry was really in high. He paid me for the airplanes, every penny of it,

that was and hit my wife, whatever he could, got me a lawyer. So he was a good friend of mine. Very well. Oh yeah, absolutely. I love Barry. And so then he started with the CIA, those guys. And he was bringing it up by the tons.

And he was landing in MENA. And he was taking a few guns back down. Can you imagine what a twin engine plane, no matter how big it is, AK-47 is going to affect the war down there. It was just an excuse for them to say, okay, we're shipping guns down and changing it for this. So that's all it was. It's just a front. It's just a front. But what's the, you know, again, you hear these, like, when you went to jail, when you went to jail at that time, when he was saying it was paying all the planes and all that stuff, how did you get caught for you to go do

the 30 some years that you did in US? Not the 30 years, but the time they get caught here, how did you get caught? Okay, just 11 people told on me and they give, I mean, you could write a book of all the depositions that they gave. So Roger did it. I mean, the airplane, the man that worked on the airplane, he just tell about the bullet holes in the plane, see machine guns in it, which it was no such thing.

White powder on the windows seals, I never, once they get into the grand jury, they think they're going to get out of their little problem, and they just build a whole book about it. So the story about him being an informant and working with guys and being on the inside because very forward. Barry was more connected. Would you agree that Barry was more connected with politicians and power players in

US than you were connected in US and you were more connected in other countries than here. Is that a correct statement? But Barry was connected with the CIA. He was connected with the CIA. Absolutely. They was hooked up and they were bringing it. And they put the they had somebody to invent the crack cocaine. And they put it in every city in the United States over one weekend. And it killed thousands and thousands of people. They were, I think, make in powder or something and made it in, and she's extremely addicting and went to the black communities, particularly.

What was the motive behind it? I mean, we've read about, I'm just just money. Just money. And so, I mean, on that one trip, I know that he brought one and a half tons in. And that's a pretty good, so I understood there was 10 tonne loads coming in there. So, well, about him, you know, there's many versions of the story.

And I've heard even you tell the story in multiple different podcasts and things that's been written about even in here. But what are, rather than asking you, what do you think happened to Barry and who killed him, what are some of the conspiracies out there about who killed Barry? I know exactly who killed Barry You know exactly I know 100% who killed him an men named Ronaldo and on my second load Ronaldo got into back. I was on a Banana plantation and it was real clay long clay run away and I had a little turbo jet arrow commander

and it was a real clay, long clay run, waiting I had a little turbojet arrow commander, a turbo prop arrow commander. And I took off with him in the back seat with a Mac 10, and when we took off, the wheel wheels got filled up with mud, red clay, and the wheels couldn't come up. So I can't make it to Louisiana, over 2,200 miles, I believe it was. So I had a place I used to refuel in police

and real nice fellow, they're on a huge ranch. So I told him we got to land. He put the gun to my head, no, no, no. You go into Louisiana, I said, we gonna all die, man, we got to do it. So anyway, we had a nice lender and went on and he's the one that killed, he met Barry, I believe at that time and he's the one that killed him's he met Barry. I believe at that time and he's one that killed him

He's still doing life and he may have been the one that killed them But was what's his reasoning for quantum to kill? I Wouldn't all those I would imagine I would I don't imagine I just know that Barry was testifying against Pablo Escobar and the old choice Now this guy work for them So no no question who did it. My parents come up here and kill him and they had two guys with him and they all got called. Is it true that Barry went to Bush senior and said if you don't clear up my IRS tax

issues that I'm having, you know, I'm going to let the whole story out and tell everybody about what really happened to you, what we did. No, that's not true. That's not true. No, okay. He, no, that's's not true. That's not true. No, okay. He, no, it's not true. Got it. So, and then in regards to Bill Clinton, and I know it's probably there's a lot of people

to be scared of in life, you know, his wife's probably in the top 100 list for many people, maybe not yourself, but you know but she's a pretty experienced individual in many different ways politically. Yes. Who was Bill Clinton back then when you were doing what you'd done? I mean, I know who he was, but who was he? Was he a power guy? Was he just a governor?

Or was he? Who was he? He was a strong man around Meena there until he was governor, and then he was governor. That's just all I know. Did you also have those kinds of relationships with other governors from other states or no? He was only one thing I always complete that when I was doing

Louisiana I used interstate 10 they were building it And it was the best room where you could ever sleep and they're bridging the freeway. Oh my god You could land on freeway Yeah, and I just go out the next day and scrub my tire marks out and And then keep landing there you would land on 10 Interstate 10 before it was finished get out of here all way across Louisiana and Texas as they was making it It was just beautiful. We guess a miles have a truck there with a thousand what candle light a 10 was a game changer It was I know I mean you take it from St. Augustine your neck of the woods Jacksonville all the way through Florida

Tallahassee yeah all the way through the Panhandle boom you're in Louisiana to be seeing your neck of the woods. It's Jacksonville all the way through Florida, Tallahassee. Yeah. All the way through the Panhandle boom, you're in Louisiana or Mississippi, Louisiana, Texas. You're just in that bridge across the Mississippi several contractors went broken. And I guess it was 10 or 15 years. And they had big red flashing lights just like at the end of a runway. And you had five miles to the river. Passcode. It was beautiful. Any any run-ins with the mob during that time, like you were doing stuff that you do anything with the tie you mob

I know you said 41 was you 42 was John Goddy was there any kind of relationships when they because when they find out Somebody knows how to make money they typically want to team up to that ever I know nobody knew me that much But I did clean the rushing grain ships with a hydroblasting business and I met Carlos Marcello And I liked him and he said no when you do something, that's how many knows it. And when you tell somebody, that's how many knows it. How many is that? Two.

It's 11. Got it. I like that. Then he tells his best friend. It's so much fun. I remember him. He said that. Yeah.

So what's the message there? Just keep your mouth shut. And are you telling your wife everything at this point though? No, but she knows what I'm doing, but I don't tell her. And your mom knows what you're doing. She's over in Georgia, so she's out of it. But she knows what I'm doing.

She's aware of what you're doing. And your wife's aware. Yes. And at any point, when I feel like I'm keep circling back to this, you're getting shot. You're getting run up on. Your plane's going down. I mean, you're going to jail, hot sauce, and any point is your wife saying honey,

enough's enough, are you that big of an adrenaline freak, are you that just, hey, you know, it happens line of business to get out of this? I don't know, she just, she just had faith in me, she just believed I could do anything. I mean, it's like I always came home and she knew about where I was and she was kind of my flight plant.

So sometimes I remember I'm eating sandwiches and I'd have a love letter right in between the baloney. You know, so she loved you that much or did she love the $15 million house? She definitely definitely did not love the money and still doesn't. She does not. She's real simple. She's a very Christian person. We both are Christian, but she really loves Lord.

Did you ever try to introduce Jesus to Pablo and tell Pablo about Jesus and God in Bible or no? And they just sit there with Jesus. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, that type of a character. So how much total time did you spend with Pablo and Ochoa? If you were to say, I spent a weekend with Ochoa, there were his, I don't know, where they all, all the bird cages and animals and all that. And with Pablo, I spent like a, I saw him like three times,

four times and I spent one day with him. We flew out to a farm that he had near with a couple of guys in, and they were some boys there, and they put me on a motorcycle early in the morning, and the grass was wet, and he said, you ride a motorcycle like, yeah, so we got on, and I boom, boom, boom, and I went, and there was a little ditch there, in the front wheel fell in it, and I went sliding across the grass, and they all had a big laugh, you know. So then we rode those motorcycles while and then we got on horses and he gave me machine gun pistol and over. Can you you know about this? I'm like, well, I've never seen

one. Yeah, absolutely. So we we we were rounded up some cow play cowboys a little bit and what's the guy was either one of them a type of guy that you see him, you're like, wow, what a fun guy. What a nice guy. And then all of a sudden something happened triggered boom. It's a completely different human being. Oh, is it what your few hours that you spend with them, you just saw one side of their personality? Oh, I think that he was just one side of his personality at that time. I think he went somewhat crazy. You know, they had a, they was a three-pronged war down there for some years and 10,000 people a year, but in Keele murdered in Medellin. So the military was just as bad to government,

just as bad as his side. You had the government, you had the conscious, that was the white clumbions, that was against the guerrillas, and all three of them was full on into cocaine business and into tons of it. And so I guess the conscious was who I was working with, but they was plenty of it coming out from the from the jungle from the from the Farric. And the military was producing and robbing and stealing all they could get. So it was fair game. So

I guess whenever they started killing Pablo's, I don't know who started killing first, but it was a war between them. And so people get, when people start dying and running and people trying to kill you, people change. And I believe he did. And later on, he become like a monster, just bringing that airline down if he did and paying a thousand dollars for every policeman that they would kill. And that's just terrible. Did Ochoa go and turn himself in and he did like five years

and then came out and now he's like living in a meeting. I think he's still alive or something like that, right? Yes, so. He's over a brother died recently. Right, and his younger brother just got out of prison. I believe he was. What is he up to? What is Ocho up to?

He had a place for fascist, you know, pass a pheno horses there in Vigado. He'd be a very, I think we reached out for an interview a few years ago. He'd be a fascinating guy to interview. You know too if he's still a medan you think you would do an open uh who would do an interview. I don't know he's a mighty nice person. He's a real gentleman. He is a old abso. So he's not a guy that's killed anybody you know just not not his type of person at all. You'd like him. Oh sure. Yeah. So I'd be safe if I went to mid the Intruder or you know, well, maybe we go together because you got your license back to five dollars. You don't want to talk to me. He owes you some money three and a half million dollars. So maybe

we go collect and go have ask good. I'll show you. That's what he's trying to get. I mean, Adam's trying to this entire time. He had a you know, only fan situation. I was trying to fix you. I know you're kind of joking. No, I'm not joking. No, I know Pat's kind of joking, but he's also kind of serious because look at his resume. How many Mafia mob guys have you interviewed? Dozens, countless.

How many guys affiliated with DEA, Escobar, everyone in the Colombian Mexican cartels? I mean, we're talking dozens and dozens and dozens of this. What keeps coming, why does it keep coming back to you? Like, all right, these types of characters, these stories, these entrepreneurs doing things their own way. Why do you keep revisiting this?

What is it about this? And what is it about their business models that maybe you learn from? Yeah, I mean, for me, like I am, as much as I love capitalism, I like talking to Communist more because I want to know what makes you believe in that argument. It makes sense. Like as much as I'm a free enterprise guy, I like to talk to it like Jenk is one of my favorite guys I talk to. What makes you believe that? Like what calls you to get

there? I'm a law abiding citizen, but I want to know Samia. How did you get here, Samia? To book, Gervano. I'm just curious. What was the tipping point? Was there a place to save you from getting there? Like with him, it's either you are, you know who you look like? Can you pull up Jim Jenkins? It's entire time. You know who Jim Jenkins is or no. Okay. So type in Jim Jenkins and Type in Jim Jenkins and put Kennedy right next to it put Kennedy right next to Jenkins. Yeah Right there. Look at that. Okay, click on that Jim Jenkins was one of the autopsy guys You look like a guest could be brothers, but obviously be older than you but Jim Jenkins

Yeah, by the way, it was crazy. He's a long-save. But by the way, it was crazy. He's been married to the same woman for 50 plus years. So how long you've been married to your wife? 58 years. He's been married to his wife at this point. I want to say 54 years, 55 years, right? You have no idea who this man is, Jim Jenkins.

No. Okay. No, but I sit there and I'm listening to you and I'm like, okay, do you think you're smarter than the people you sit with? Like do you think you can outsmart and outmaneuver yourself out of anything? Do you think that or no? Not at all. At all?

No. Seriously. So would you consider yourself a very simple man? Yes. What do you like to do for fun? I like to walk, I like to run, I climb the mountain behind our house every week and that sort of thing. How about when you were 35? Like, what was fun for you at 25 or 35?

I don't know. I like flying and I like, with my wife and I, we go out to eat dinner and bottle of wine, that sort of thing. We didn't do anything. I mean, just didn't have anything to simplify. To simplify. To simplify. And are you somebody that, if somebody shared a secret with you, it stays with you? Absolutely. You're simply right. And are you somebody that if somebody shared a secret

with you, it stays with you? Absolutely. That's your M.O. It's strong and it stays with you. So then because the fact that you're alive, still sitting here and Barry is not, means something. There was something that happened there

that they weren't willing to take you out or they had no reason to, what, whatever. I mean, it's not about that. That weren't willing to take you out or they had no reason to, whatsoever. I mean, it's not about that, that many different reasons to take you out. If I got a plane, you're bringing me a delivery and if I want to flip against the other guy and I can just take this, there's a lot of different ways I can eliminate you, the people could do that to make more money. A guy like you could go, no, you misunderstood. They put, I'd land a plane.

Yeah, no, no. I would come over El Banco and Magdalena Basin. And I'd be at 10,000 feet with whatever kind of airplane I had. And I'd look at 9,000 feet and there'd be a assessment of tail dragger, bush plane, so it's certainly at 9,000. I didn't know where I was going. And I'd circle around, I'd find him, and we go wings,

and I might go hundreds of so miles behind him, and we'd come to a jungle strip, and I would land. And I could spend the night, I could do as long as I wanted to. They'd have a good meal for me, put gasoline in the plane, fill it up with the cocaine, and I would fly back, and each one of those duffel bags belonged to someone. And they would have, like, the brand for their cattle, like a snake on it or three X's or some horns.

And those all belonged to, and I would give them to a man in Miami here that named Lito, and I would just point out the cars where they were. And I didn't, I didn't, they didn't have to give me any money. I'd wait three weeks, sometimes And what did I get paid? Yeah, but the moment people know on the inside and greet happens, how do empires fall?

They fall within it within. You don't have to ever worry about the people on the outside. Always worry about people on the inside that may turn against you due to envy, to do whatever may be. So all I'm saying is somebody on one guy's side says, hey, you know, such and such, you know, this guy

making all this money, why don't you and I go and being in the middle of the travel that he's doing and take him down and take some of this stuff and we can walk away with a couple million hours. Temptation happens and that happens all to that. That's what I mean when I say I don't know. The fact that you're sitting here, you know, somebody looked over you because odds are not supposed to be on your side. And regards to El Chapo, El Chapo is a 1957 guy, you're 1973 when you started, so he was

16, so you've probably never done anything with El Chapo or anything. Not at all, because he came later on. Got it. And so outside of that would Pablo and Ochoa, you've been very complimentary about Pablo, but at the same time you said, well, I found that amount of people he killed. I was disappointed by that. What's your relationship in how you saw him and how he treated you to what he did later on?

How do you view Pablo? Is it like a complicated way you view him? No, I just think that he just turned bad. That he just probably the stress and whatever it was. And people start shooting and killing each other. People, it's like him more. Look what's happening now. Would Putin and you wouldn't think that about him

a couple of months ago, see in him, but he turned and killing tens of thousands of people. Do you think good men are capable of, I guess the question will be the following, do you think more of good men are capable of doing evil things or evil men are more capable of being good? Wow, I don't know. I think all of us, all of us could do bad things if we had the right provocation. And I think all of us want to do good if we just live in and be around us and people are nice to us and you say,

hello and good morning. I love everybody. With somebody just killing my family, I turn into something different. Yeah, I agree. I want to talk about a conversation with my dad and I told my dad, I said, that do you think you're capable of killing someone?

He says never. I said, that, stop. He says, never. I'm telling you, I could never do it. You meet my dad, my dad, I said, Dad, do you think your capable of killing someone? He says, never. I said, Dad, stop. He says, never. I'm telling you, I could never do it. And you meet my dad, my dad, you know, you know, whatever. So yeah, he said, I'm not capable of doing something to anybody. I said, Dad, stop it. I said, take one of your crank, it's somebody does something to him right in front of you.

If you have a choice between killing them or you, what would you do? He says, well, maybe I'm capable of doing something. I said, I've changed his a little bit right when he get to that. But have you seen evil, evil men become good? No, no, no. Have you met many evil men throughout your lifetime? Yes, in prison. If something should be executed.

Seriously, absolutely. Tell me more. Well, we had a fellow in there named Stickham Steve. And Stickham Steve was God about my size, but I think he'd killed 30. He came into do three years and he killed 13 people while he was in there. Oh, 13 people in there in prison over the years. He'd go in a year or two in solitary and he'd get out and he'd kill somebody else. Maybe he wouldn't get convicted of it. He'd kill somebody else and then he'd kill somebody else. He killed somebody else. And then he killed somebody else.

So prisoners. Yeah. And for what reason? Whatever, he just didn't bother him. So he'd come in, we had a little TV room. There, Long Park is a maximum security prison. For somebody who was killed every month. When I was there, murder.

Every, every 30 days somebody was killed. What city is this? Long Park, California here. Okay. They got cameras in there and knocked it down to three or four years. But when I was there, it was bad. So Steve would come in, turn the television camera at three o'clock.

We had headphones to plug in in a little TV room glass, then y'all know I watched Benound's everyday at three o'clock. And the guys would just lay the head, sit down and go, like, I wasn't scared of Steve. I still wouldn't kill him. I didn't want to trouble with him. So I just put my head said down and watch my name to one of the other. Well, I was down on cell cell 17 and my friend Phil was 18 and I was a little slow getting my cup of coffee, my coffee to go down to the end to the hot order heater wasn't really 15 or 20 men down there getting it.

And my friend feels coming down and he says, and I'm going, he says, you don't want to go down there. I was going, oh, Phil, he said, you don't want to see. I'm bullshit. I do want to see. And I go down there. There's nobody there. It's place bigger than this room. And I look and I'm getting my hot order in my instant coffee and I look across in there Steve with his shirt off but the rail and he turns around and comes to me and he looks like a car spring has been stuck through him all the way through his chest and it's out his back. And he come right up to me and like a little boy says, can you help me? Can you, can you help me?

I said, no Steve, I don't believe I can help you. And he said, can anybody help me? And he went back over to the rail and he leaned over and the blood started coming out of his mouth and dropped down by the guard station. And of course the guard hit the button and hear all the guards come 50 up and they're going up them stairs shaking it like boom boom boom boom and his boss he painted painted the house and his boss was a tubby fellow about 30 years old and they had had an argument the day before he almost put Steve into Chokie and he ran right up to Steve and he's like me he didn't see it to start with him when he saw it he dropped a head of a heart attack right in front of Steve's feet.

Get out of here. I'm around the corner trying to have a look and all those people. And then Steve fell down on him. Just the two of them dead right there together. And they locked us up for two weeks, and I mean, they treated us bad. They come to everything out of the cell,

guns in my face, they say something, re-says something. Who's the day? Who is the day? That guard, his name was Clark. But what did, what did stick them Steve do at that point? Where it was? He just, he just failed to do it.

He just, no, but who did he kill at that point? He didn't kill anybody. Somebody had come into his sale while he's still laying on the mattress and put that, put that, put that metal through him. It went out into his mattress through it through him. And he didn't kill him right then. He lived in other five minutes.

So, his was the first sale there on that side. And so, he just walked out and... How many different prisons have you been in? But wait, I want to say on the story here. So, this guy, so, did you guys finally find out who killed the guy? No, nobody wanted to know who killed him. How many people were in the prison with you guys at that time? 1400.

Oh, so you're not going to find that one? In my unit now was a maximum unit and they were some bad boys in there Well, you're saying Steve had it coming absolutely 13 people you kid him every time he goes down there So so I eventually somebody somebody to take the sky But somebody should have done it a long time ago somebody done a long time ago. I should have done it I mean why would you you gonna let that go? You believe in death penalty. 100, but when I went in, I didn't. But after living with some of those people

that black bob could have man opened in, and ate his heart and put him under my bed, in the 17 before I got there. What? Yeah. So I mean, you live with those guys. They've got a guy up in Edas Heart. He cut his heart, he killed him, he couldn't,

he said, what's he'll, did you go to like what this is this is in California? Long pop long pop pinnacle entry Right there 1400 million twelfth of dying a year average that that's why I asked the question of how many different jails You've been to and what was the worst? Yeah, yeah, you've been to Mexican jail. You've been to jail in California. Yeah, I assume you've been to jail. You've been in jail in all Australia. 26 of them.

How many different jails and what's the worst situation to be in Mexico? Okay. Not far. And no doubt about it. This has cleaned up somewhat now, then what it was. There's where I was 11 years. Oh, maybe not. You look at it right now.

What do you think when you see this picture? Does do anything to your I just think what a terrible situation United States has all those men in there half of them don't belong there Half of them don't don't do don't belong there. Yeah, but so go back to death penalty And I want to ask you the question on the half and half so death penalty you're fully forward You went in not being forward. Yeah, you left saying no. We need death penalty There's some people in there that, like, like Bob, I mean, he was just, he just killed you if you flew with him.

And you're just like, I don't know, he played and he had shot Tarotin up and he had plenty of sense. I played to chess almost every day. And he'd be nodding off and I said, come on, Bob, move and he'd move and make, okay, and beat me. So he said, you ain't no shortage,

he should, but to do something like that, he's in there from murder, did any of that, so did you go in as a simple guy, did you come out with some bad ugly, maybe not habits, but like your view of the world and your intentions changed where you could do more harm than you went in or you went in you came out the same human being I Think I came up pretty much the same thing, but I I got I got tougher as the years went by and there Yes, you see it these teeth are not my own I left them in a man's neck

What happened there he was winning? Okay, I got you Yeah, I pulled it over, gave him a good bite and that was end of that. Did you do that right after seeing a Tyson fighter? Or was that like inspiration came from you? I should give him, I should give him some lesson. Yeah, you went up to the ear, you went up to the head. Do you think it's, there must be some,

I know you said I'm a simple man, you know, I'm just here. There must be deep below, maybe not on the surface, maybe something you don't even like talking about, a deep sense of cunningness, an acute sense of... Not at all. Not at all. There's gotta be something in there.

You're hanging out with Pablo Escobar, what the show, you're hanging out with these literal murderers. But they weren't there. They weren't there. They were just like us sitting here. They absolutely, you can't look into man till it's murder. But even in prison though, Roger. Yeah were just like us sitting here. They're absolutely you can't look at the man But even in prison though Roger That guy something Bob you said what did you call him black Bob like Bob?

Do you think he was always evil? Yes So you think some people are well no listen no little babies born evil So I get that but do you think like we've been bad for a long time? I don't know what happened to him to make him that way But from you being around them. I'm just curious. I'm analyzing some of these guys. How much of that is parenting? How much of that is there on DNA? There's a bunch of their own DNA because it follows I saw she didn't families Grandfather father son come right on in there For sure down this what you have to hash it down. Let me look at animals

You got you got bulls at hook and go war you get rid of them and For sure it's down, just to hash it down. Look, look at animals. You've got bulls that hook and go, you get rid of them. In producing, you heard, gets a better disposition. It's crazy to know that the perspective here to believe in death penalty after seeing what many of these guys did. And did you ever see, well, you said no, you didn't see, you said half the people in America shouldn't be in jail. The ones that are in jail shouldn't be in jail. The other half, you serve to be in there.

How did they end up in there? How broken is a system that we have? It's horribly broken. Why and how? Okay, a lot of the people didn't prison, not in those prison, but in the lesser prisons, making up the population in camps and farms. And this, a DEA should go under the bridge with his moustache and his tattoos all over

him. And he'll shoot Harrow him with his guise or he'll snort a little bit of whatever. And he'll get one of them to sail two or three grams of methamphetamine to the other one. Nice, got two bust. And he takes them to jail. And boy, now I've got two, so he does that every month or two, so whenever it's time for who's going to make Sargent, guess who makes Sargent, the one that's got all these little arrests, or maybe someone a little bit bigger, but I'm just making it.

So now the new goes to a young prosecutor, and the prosecutor comes to the bad, we're going to give you 10 years if you don't plead guilty buddy and you got a public defender. I'm going to make sure you do 10 years. If you'll take five you can do it now the prosecutor says okay and it's full of them okay you gonna have to do four on the five and And so he's had two grams of methamphetamine. And I'm waiting on a pro hearing in Oklahoma City, which I never got. And so I meet a fellow from Santa Barbara and where are you going? He said, I'm going to Atlanta.

I got caught with two grams of meth andphetamine, and I'm going to Atlanta for psychiatric evaluation. And then I made a nice young fella from Albany, Georgia, and where are you going? So I'm going to Los Angeles. I got caught with two grams of meth andphetamine. I'm going for psychiatric evaluation. I imagine they cost the government $30,000, $50,000

to take them across country and leave them a month in Oklahoma City at the big, big, big chains there. Seventeen planes, I believe, I don't know for sure, which, uh, Fed air, a con air, no one asked who owns it. Ace some, and now the people of the government and people in the United States don't want to pay that. It's these people that are lining their own pockets with it and their own retirements. And it's wrong.

It's really wrong. So you're upbringing. Could they have done anything for you to not have pursued this career, your parents? Yes. I don't blame it anybody. It's all mine. But my father was an alcoholic. Okay. And we lived in a nice white house on a pretty big farm, but he was drunk. And he loved us and nothing wrong with him. He was just a gentleman. But my poor mother worked and so in fact, her in Doug, like crazy in the dirt and and made us help us make

a living. And I think if he had to put his arm around me and say son you know you're smart. Why don't you be this or that or lawyer or a doctor or whatever. I would have put right up because whatever he said I like to do it but he said Roger's the best damn hog catcher in the county. Well I was sure I was. I'd rattle the bull down or ride a buck in horse and I mean, he laughed about that and I liked it. So I just wondered my daughter's a doctor and I encouraged her, you know, bloody lesson. It's good for something. You can do it. So I think... But he never beat you up. He never did anything. He wasn't like he was abusive. He just drank.

He was a wonderful human being. If talked about him now. I cry. But you were seeking his approval. If he told you to do something positive, you would have done that. Oh, yes. Of course. I would have been a power of a father. Yeah. Powerful. Well, can you can you go a little bit more deeper on that? The power of a father on the sound. Why is that role so important? What it is. Why is it so important? I think it's just, and we sinned bread in us, what our fathers and mothers think of us. It really is, particularly boys with their father. I mean, I can remember things that he did, and it just wounds my heart. When I was about five or six years old, I'd follow him. And we had two bird dogs, and he would shoot the quail

with a double barrel shotgun, and they'd point and then as they fly, pow, pow, and the birds would feather with fallen dogs and get them and come here. And then I said, Daddy, can I shoot that gun? You know, and he says, you really want to shoot this 12 gauge shotgun? I just little, yeah, I want to shoot it. So he puts it over a stump and he gets behind me real close and holds me. And he puts it up in my shoulder and it's and he pointed to that tree and I pull that trigger and the bark flies off of that pine tree. Man, I could have walked on the air. I was so big, you know, stuff like that.

They just... Do you remember that vividly? Fividly. I remember me out in the yard and I'm throwing a butcher knife up at the leather wing bats. I think I'm going to hit them because they'll dive towards it but they'll blind and they go away. And I see him coming down the road with his leather coat on and a double barrel shotgun over and a two big rabbits hanging in. I run all the way out and meet him. Can I carry one and I have to hold it up like this and the rabbits here? You know, you just remember things like that

and and and then for him being drunk if he would have been carried on with that, what would I have been? I would have never went to prison, but it's certainly not his fault. It's mine. My brother didn't go to prison. My sister's didn't. So you don't put any of the onus. By the what months of birthday?

January of the 26th. Query. And then how about your dad? April. April. Pat, this is something that you're, you constantly are kind of bringing up the role of the father, the role of, the role that you play with your kids, the important role that your father has played in your life. Yeah. Something that even when Roger over here is talking about his dad, this is something that interests you greatly. Like he said, he's going to get emotional about this.

Even with Rick Macy, we talked about the role of a coach and the role of a parent and role of a father. What is it about, I mean, other than the obvious of obviously your parents are important, why is this something you keep bringing on harping about? Yeah, I just think, you know, you keep bringing on harbing about? Yeah, I just think, you know, shh, you know, we're trying to fix, you're getting to the product late to fix it. You know, I don't know how to describe that.

Like, we're trying to fix the product after it's already been broken for 18 years. Amen. Instead, let's work on the most important example and face of what that product is looking up to and who is emotionally listening. I have a lot of influence. Okay, so I went to a wedding with this, this one of our guys, Georgia's wedding. And his dad and I, we've had a lot of good battles

back and forth, a lot of them over the years. Dad was a man's man, just like, he was a guy, Cuban guy, you know, tough guy, you know, confidence, swagger walks and not afraid. I took him to Kentucky Derby one time, and you would have thought he owned a Derby. I was, and I was like 10 years ago when I took him to the Derby. And 11 years ago when I took him to Kentucky Derby one time and you would have thought he owned the Derby. I was, and it was like 10 years ago when I took him to the Derby.

And 11 years ago when I took him to the Derby, but he would be like, why are you making my son do this? You're making him drive from Palmdale to this. And pop up, we would get into it. I'm like, listen, I'm not trying to do anything about your son, trying to help your son be a man and a leader.

Let me do my part, let me do my part, right? And son George is a quality, quality guy, very quality guy, right? Smart guy, very sexy runs a 30 million dollar your business with us right now. That's very well for himself. But he wanted to win for his dad, right? And his dad comes up to me to the wedding in November when he got mega mayor, I think November 13 or some like that. I mean, a beautiful wedding, small wedding, but a beautiful wedding. And with that, I got to talk to Pat.

I got to talk to him. We go on the corner, says, I listen to me. You need to know this. You need to hear from me. Because there's only one man that can tell you this. I said, what's that? He says, my sons had two fathers.

Me and you. We've raised this boy together. I got him in the first half. You got him in the second half. But it's you and I. And he's crying. I'm crying. My body's got chills all over the, you know, I'm feeling the first half, you got them in the second half. But it's you and I, and he's crying, I'm crying. My body's got chills all over the, you know,

I'm feeling it right now. But a boy wants to make his dad and his mom proud. Some of that shit breaks, you just, I don't know. So yeah, to me, I would much rather train the trainers. I would much rather get the parents. I would much rather get the fathers. Then we get him at this point of and again, it's too late. Absolutely.

It's too late. What are we going to do here at this point? We screwed the whole thing up way too late. Well I'll tell you how to do it. This have, from starting off, this have family planning is a great, great part of the education. Did you know that there's a half a million children in pasta care? And I don't know how many in orphanages and

a million's aborted every year? But those children run more and they're no longer loved and they wind up there. A great portion of them don't know who their parents are. Don't know if my mom didn't want me. And I think I told this before. My daughter was my daughter's a doctor and she delivered a baby to a 10-year-old child What in the world? I mean what?

What four or five generations in the in the vest and remodel them welfare? And I say that a bird builds an ass before she lays an egg not so human beings and where the children are are rather more scarce, they're wounded and they're loved and they've taken care of and nurtured and that's what needs to be done. You know, the four things I tell my kids is lead respect and prove love. And I don't know, I don't know a co-ops, I listen, I talk to them, it's not like talks, but it's not like this, but it's not like, the way you sell it,

I don't think the power of love, man. That love is a very, very, you know, challenging thing. Unfortunately, we had Paul Manafort here last week. I don't know if you know Paul Manafort is. Paul Manafort went to jail Trump, you know, that whole situation is a lobbyist. Trump's campaign.

Yeah, and I'm not a fan of lobbyist at all. And I told him I'm not a fan of lobbyists. What these guys do, right? It's a big business model. You make a lot of money. But then he said something. He says, what are you gonna do? Okay, don't have lobbyists.

The other side's gonna have lobbyists. So don't go and have them. So now what are you gonna do? And you're cornered. So yeah, oh, you know what? We're not gonna use tanks, but they're gonna use tanks. Okay, let's get a couple tanks, guys. You see what I'm saying? Hey, hey, hey but they're going to use tanks. Okay, let's get a couple tanks, guys. You see what I'm saying?

They're going to use rocket launches. No, no, that's not our policy. We got to get rocket launchers. Guys, let's go buy some rocket launchers, right? So eventually, to go against an enemy that's doing that, you know, you try to use love as much as possible, but some people are just, they're playing by different rules than you.

So you as a human being are conflicted, constantly conflicted to say, what should we use to handle this crisis? Okay, should we handle it, you know, just let it go and don't worry about it. Well, then if you let it go in the market, it gets a reputation of you, just let things go. Then they're going to come in like vultures, you know, take advantage you constantly. Then what do you do? And maybe that's not the responsibility of everybody. Maybe that is the responsibility of parents to impose that love and respect and strength

and confidence on the right values and principles and hoping the kids are gonna pick it up and do something with it. And you still got a risk because at the end of the day, I think the kids got to do what they got to do. There's a lot of kids that were raised to great parents that did some dumb shit, they did some stupid things.

So a part of the onus is going to be on them as well. You can do everything right and still screw it up because you are not seven and a half billion people around your kids and you're not around them 100% of the time. You only run them for a few hours or minutes or sometimes they're gone away from you when they're adults. But yeah, I think Adam to go back to it, man. I think somehow some way, as much as we are doing what we're doing with parents, you know, with kids, I think there's got to be some kind of a parents once a week,

once a month, course teaching something. I don't know, because if you do it and they do it, the kids feel it. If you pick something up and somebody tells you, here's how I raise my kids and you do it, your kid is gonna be the beneficiary of what you picked up from another person that taught it to you. I think we're not spending enough time teaching parents.

I wanna keep saying this. I think we're not spending enough time teaching parents. But I think parents are also starting to realize a few different things But all the stuff that's going on Disney Netflix bought politics, you know all the smiths that's going on parents are starting to realize I have to be more involved. There's four things we came up with today one of them is They're gonna stop putting their kids in more private schools because right values and principles necessary

Number two is home school is gonna increase number three is they're gonna relocate to different places could be a state They're gonna relocate to a different place and number four. I'm gonna keep saying this to you and I'm not even in the business I'm telling you right now you're gonna see more parents putting kids in churches some kind of addition like like MMA my kids go to the bar even for Lauderdale and I got to tell you, they're sitting there teaching them discipline. That's not how you do this.

You respect each other. You do this. You have to put your kids in communities right now that are teaching to write values and principles, whether it's martial arts, whether it's church, whether it's sports, whether it's anything, because there's a lot of, it's almost as if there's a lot of people that are also confusing kids nowadays who are parenting matters and supporting cast matters. But I'm listening to the entire time when you listen to him. If you close your eyes, you didn't know his story.

And we never talked about him being a smuggler. And all we were able to talk about is from 0 to 18. And you have one game you have to play. Can you guess what he ends up doing for the rest of his life? Would you have been able to guess what he did for living? Definitely not a drug smuggler based on his life. Would you have been able to guess what he did for living? Definitely not drugs muggler based on his body. Would you have been able to guess it? He's just a guy who likes to fly and happen to have drugs on the plane. He became a pilot, maybe he became a fighter pilot,

maybe he went into the military, became a, you know, Colonel Lieutenant Colonel, some like that. Like you said, initially he wanted to be missionary, missionary aviation. Missionary aviation. Yeah. That's where his heart is. And it just so happened that the money was too sweet to pass up. And he regrets. Pardon? And he regrets.

Oh, 33 years of him. Yeah, nothing. And nothing, nothing in this life. We love, and people is aware, but no amount of money is worth going to prison for. Not for long Not like that Why though? I mean you keep going back though

Why I mean you want to you say that but I mean I hate to do this to you He asked you the same question three times you say no amount of money is worth 33 years Absolutely went to jail 26 different times in six different countries on four different continents and escaped five times. Like, I wanted to get home. Okay, well, if you want to get home back, though. All right, when I got 35 years from marijuana, and I got out after a short time

and had 30 years of parole, and that means anytime you violate, they can give me all a part of that 30 years and was linked. Now then you get very sealed. It comes, says, and they, and they, let me tell you about that. After I saw Reagan's blue eyes on the television, they say that the communist sending east of government was in the cocaine running business and there was Barry's airplane ability and on the runway in Nicaragua. Oh, and I'd heard Barry might have turned. I got a phone call from Barry and he said, I'm coming out tonight.

So I meet you to a French restaurant in Santa Barbara on me and what it was. So I'd be there at nine o'clock. So I came in and Barry had game waiting. He was back at the ball and I looked around. He was about 20, 25 people in there. Women with leather skirts, zone, all, 30, 40 years old. I was like, I'm going to go to the ball and I looked around. There's about 20, 25 people in there. Women with leather skirts on all 30, 40 years old men, blue jeans and jackets. And I went up and Barry, are you wired? And he said, no, I'm not. And I said, well, of the old EA, and he said, everyone

of them. And I said, well, please just tell me what's going on. And he sat there and he leaned back and he started telling me how did it happen and how that he got left holding the bag. And he just put his hands over his eyes and the tears ran down between his fingers and said, Raj, I just couldn't do it. I just couldn't do it.

I was facing three life sentences, life sentences, each prison in state Florida. I don't know where to lose Vienna and Arkansas. He said, so I went to, I got out on bail and I went to see Edward Mees in Washington and I told him everything. And I've testified before Congress and I told him you're part.

And you testify with me and keep your money, you'll get a new passport, your family to live, wherever you want to live. So he was one to eleven people? No, he was, I think, twelve. This was after I'd already gone. So he says, but you've got to do it. I just couldn't do it. I'm so sorry.

So he brought the guy, said, wouldn't bring your head, haunch your over. So it was a guy. I think it was a crop duster from Alabama, named Jake Jacobson. It had been in his pilot, the one that flew the one and a half tons up and billeted in. And he told me, you can come to Miami tomorrow and just a five before grand jury, you can come down first class with Mari, or I'll take you down and change. You can come down first class with Mary or I'll take you down and change. I said, well, I'll come down first class. So I went down and I went to see one of the best lawyers, Gould and his partner been been assassinated for

Representing a snitch. So I went and talked to him. I said, man, I got to say something. I don't want to say I can't I'm not going to testify. He said, well, I don't represent snitches. I said, my face turned red. I said, not a snitch. He said, well, that's what you're talking about. He said, let me tell you something. You go in that grandeur room and if you don't tell them everything and Barry's told them something different, you're going to get life. No matter one thing that you don't tell them. So I went to the courthouse, I spoke to me, Barry, and to do it. So I was standing there, and they came up and the cavalcade had Barry in between them in the cars in front and back, and they stopped down there, and it was hot.

And they was all looking out with the machine guns, looking out this way and that way, and I just reached up, hit the top of that car, bam! I said, they like to tour the inside of it and I said, see how easy it would be. So I said, fellas, I'm having trouble getting a lawyer. So, well, we, and so he gave me a name of a lawyer or something. So that night I had dinner with Maury in the LaFest of All Restaurant, which was our favorite dining car, Gapel's, In Barry and Debbie come in, and while we were finishing up, we had dessert together. And I hugged his neck, I said, Barry, they're going to kill you for an. No, no, so I fled to Brazil when Mario and children in July, they killed him. That was on my birthday January 1985, I guess.

Six months later they killed him. They killed me out. And you saw that coming of course 100% and if you would have Something would have happened to you Well, of course you'd kill me But I mean I wasn't going to halfway house every night if I went and went to Portugal or something with my money and changed my name I and all this stuff flew over in a few years. I would have been all right But I didn't want to take the chance. I didn't do it for that.

I just, I'm just not a snitch. You just, you either are or you're not in your heart. They killed them for snitching. Yeah, absolutely. 100%. The cartel? Yes. And you knew what your fate would be

if you did the same thing as him? Well, yes, but I did. I just, you could, I could have taken the money and went to Russia somewhere and lived behind the Iron Curtain. They wouldn't have found me, but I just you could I could have taken the money and went to Russia somewhere and live behind the iron curtain They wouldn't have found me But I just didn't want to it just wasn't me. It's just not me Not to be telling somebody that I work with made a deal with he's just a good person How am I gonna send him to prison for life and me said outside?

I mean, I don't want to go have you in a terrible position, but I would have had anywhere somewhere instead of doing that What's the toughest question your kids asked you have they asked you a question? Were you were startled or no? Have they ever asked you question where you told you were like, oh my god That's the question I don't want to be asked. Okay, whenever whenever I went to Brazil We got we changed the name from Reeves to Odom. That was my great grandfather's name and the children was, and my little boy was just five years old,

and we was two or three years with that. And anyhow, whenever we had to change it back to Reeves, I had to tell him, your name is really Reeves. And he thought, what? And he didn't don't know him, he remembered it. So that was just something, like a question you have to tell them the real name. What's your relationship with your kids today?

Oh, just wonderful. Just, they just full of love. And they're how old now? 56 and 47 and 41. How old are you? I'm 79. 79, January 26th. I'll be. January 23rd to 43? I'm 79. 79. January 26th. I'll be.

January 23rd, 43? 43. 1943. Yeah. Same age as your dad. No, one year younger. He's a third year apart. Yeah, my dad's 42.

Yeah. Very interesting. Well, I mean, listen, I, first of all, what a story you've lived. If we didn't get into 90% of it on what we have. For folks who want to know more, we're going to put the link below to your book Smuggler. Listen, this is stuff that we probably touched 5-10% of the book. If you want to learn more about it, you can go order the book.

I wish we had a couple more hours, about it, you can go order the book. I wish we had a couple more hours, man, because you're a great storyteller. You got a lot of interesting stories that you're sharing with us. And I think there's more depth to it rather than just many of these stories that are entertaining. I think there's depth to it that have to do with character, with how to be a man, fatherhood, relationships, decision-making. I think there's more to it there as well, but I'll give you the final thoughts. The audience has listened to for a couple of hours.

What final thoughts you have for them? Oh boy, ask me questions. I can do a whole lot better than if it come up on the thought. I have an idea of prison reform that particularly young people come in should be sentenced to a trade. And I got a lot of flack over saying that, but they should be. You can give them 10 years or to make a plumber.

So instead of going to jail, no, you go to jail and you go into a trade school in jail. Instead you got 10 years, buddy, but soon as you were a class A plumber, you got a job at 50 bucks an hour, you walk out that door. And that would take a heap of, very interesting. Why would they not implement something like that? I feel like, just, you want to have productive members of society.

Absolutely, and people say, well, yeah, do a crime. Go get an education. But those people are just gonna sit there and slam the dominoes down for 10 years for nothing to come out to do another crime. It's just sad. Why would they do, though? I don't think they don't know them yet.

And I'll just tell you that I have some good news about it. I signed a contract with range media partners to make a series. Congratulations. They working on it. Yeah, that's very cool. Very exciting. I mean, I'm sure these stories, every story you're telling me,

all I'm thinking about is a movie. I'm going to the scene. So I want to see it on the big picture myself. When these come out, tell her, did you want to say something or you unmuted yourself? OK. Roger, really enjoyed this. Thank you so much for coming to be

in the guest on the podcast. And this has been a pleasure. Yeah, so we don't have nothing this week or we do. Do we have podcasts on Thursday? The podcast Thursday. Thursday, yeah. It's gonna be a special one. So, Hank Ty, we're gonna have some

special for you guys on Thursday. Take care everybody. We'll see you there. Bye bye, bye bye, bye bye. Bye. Yn yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw' yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw