PBD Podcast - Religious Roundtable | PBD Podcast | Ep. 306

Starting point is 00:00:00 I Did you ever think you would make it? I feel I'm so I can take sweetly the story I know this life means for me Yeah, why would you plan on the life when we got that day? That you came in giving values contagious this world I want yourpreneurs we can't no value that hate is out of run.

Starting point is 00:00:27 Homie, look what I've become. I'm the one. Okay, so today we have a very unique podcast here. We have some friends here we were talking earlier to discuss the importance of the MB and the greatest players of all time. That's what we're going to talk about. It has nothing to do with faith, nothing to do with religion, no discussion, but in seriousness, I've been looking forward to this for a while.

Starting point is 00:00:54 I know it's a bit of a sensitive setup to have it like this we discussed. It was supposed to be a different couple of different individuals, brothers from your end coming in and the Muhammad hijab and I had a call together, we had a Zoom. He had some challenges and I got to give shout out to Eddie, the Dean show, he's here with us as well, but he's sitting outside to have the discussion for us to be here together, Robert. I respect all of you for coming out. Truly, I respect you for coming out. My outcome, I want to first share with you and the audience, well, my outcome of this is. So as a father of four, I'm a little bit concerned

Starting point is 00:01:27 on what's going on with the country in America. I escaped Iran. We went to Germany at a refugee camp then we came here. I now have four kids and I love America. I think this is an incredible nation. It's changed my life. But some of the things that's going on right now, it's kind of weird.

Starting point is 00:01:42 It's strange. It's not normal. It doesn't seem normal to me. And I have friends, I'm a Christian myself, I mean non-denominational Christian people know that's my position. But I have a lot of friends that are Muslims, I have Scientologists friends, I have Mormon friends, I have Jews, you know, who are here with us as well. So I wanted to bring this up because we're going to discuss a few different things today. Number one is, the differences in the religion of Christianity and Muslim will discuss that. And then we'll discuss the enemy.

Starting point is 00:02:11 Who is the enemy to Christians? Who is the enemy to Muslims? And then we're going to share who are common enemies. Are in some funny questions I want to ask you. We'll have some levity here as well to enjoy the discussion. And then there'll be an opportunity for you guys to also discuss with each other. This is not a debate, this is a discussion.

Starting point is 00:02:28 Of course, there's going to be moments of debate and you given your point of view. That's going to happen no matter what, naturally, the setting is where that is going to happen. But I want to make sure everybody knows that's my outcome. I think there is an area where if we can find common enemies, the enemy is greater, then we think, at the end, that's my outcome, but would that be in Selah me properly

Starting point is 00:02:47 introduce everybody? So first, we have Daniel, hey, hey, hey, Rari, Teju. Hariratju. Hariratju, I said it seven times properly and then when we're on, I can't. So Daniel Hariratju attended Harvard University where he majored in physics and

Starting point is 00:03:05 philosophy. He is a Sunni Muslim debater who specializes in debating anti-Muslim figures. He founded MuslimSkeptic.com and teaches Islam at mosques and universities around the world. Thank you for being here. Thank you, Patrick. And he has a book here as well. The Modernist Menace to Islam. We'll put the link below as well. Rob, so if people want to pick it up, they can. And then we have Jake Brankatela, right, who is here with us. I was telling him early, I'm used to that last name,

Starting point is 00:03:30 more often with some of the friends we interview. He is the Muslim metaphysician, is a convert to Islam. He holds a BA in philosophy, and is currently studying for a Master's in philosophy. And theology, Jake primarily debates Christians and atheists, and is an active member of the Muslim debates initiative. Then we have brother Rashid here to my right. He wrote a book called the ideology behind Islamic terrorism, a Moroccan Christian convert and a host of the daring questions television program where he discusses Christianity

Starting point is 00:04:02 and engages with Islamic theology and religious topics. Brother, she thanks you for being here. Thank you for having me. And last but not least, Robert Spencer, American author and commentator, known for his writings of Islam counterterrorism and his involvement with the organizations like Jihad Watch, the most popular blog within the counter jihad movement. He's also written the truth about Muhammad. He's written a critical Quran, and also his latest book

Starting point is 00:04:26 that I think is that the critical Quran you have out here. And he's written a few other things. Rob, again, once again, thank you for being here as well. So what I want to do is, before we get started, and I have some comments and questions here, if you, just for some of the audience that maybe didn't know the whole story, we can start off with anyone, on how you came about your current position right now. If you can take 30 seconds to a minute,

Starting point is 00:04:48 giving your background and it will go from there. So we're going to start off with you. Robert, how did you go, I've read your story. Of course, I know your background. I'll watch a lot of commentary on you. How did you become the person that you are today? Well, you know how one thing leads to another. And I was fascinated with Islam in the Islamic world from a very early age because my grandparents actually are from the Ottoman Empire. They were Greek Orthodox Christians in what is now Turkey. And we're exiled during World War I

Starting point is 00:05:19 for not converting to Islam. And when I knew them, actually my grandmother was the only person besides Barack Obama who said that the, who I knew, who said that the call to prayer, the Islamic call to prayer was the most beautiful sound that she had ever heard. And she would tell me stories about growing up in Turkey and how wonderful it was and how beautiful the land was,

Starting point is 00:05:44 how wonderful the people were, and so on. And so then I would ask the inevitable question, I was, you know, five years old or whatever, well then why are you here? Why did you leave? And then they would clam up and not tell me. So this just made me more interested and started to study it, consulted with people, ended up consulting with some people in the 90s about these issues. and then after 9-11 was asked to write a book, and now I've written 27 books, mostly on this issue. And I watch you where you have a certain level of, true hundred percent belief in what you're talking about.

Starting point is 00:06:15 We'll get into that here in a minute, and I'm sure we'll get more about that. Brother Rishi, how about yourself? Yes, I grew up in Morocco. My dad was an email for a mosque and I was Muslim like every other Moroccan. At age of 12, I was listening to a radio program. That's when I heard about Christianity. And I started comparing between Islam and Christianity. I was fascinated with the person of Jesus in the gospels. And I was shocked with the life of Muhammad when I compared to the life of Jesus in the gospels. And I was shocked with the life of Muhammad

Starting point is 00:06:46 when I compared it to the life of Jesus. Then I converted at age of 16, 17. Then I had to leave my family. Actually, they rejected me. I lived as a homeless for two years. And I had to live under ground with the Moroccan church, the Congress until 2005 I had to flee the country. 2005 you had to flee the country. Okay and we'll get into your stories. Well a little bit more of the wind top. Bix come up. Jake how about yourself what's your story? What's your

Starting point is 00:07:20 background? Yeah so I was raised a Roman Catholic, my entire family is Roman Catholic up until today. I personally never really believed in the religion, primarily because the theology never really made much sense to me. As I grew older in my late teens and going into the university years, I naturally, the mind starts to think about the deeper questions in life.

Starting point is 00:07:48 What's the purpose of life? Does God exist? What religion is true? And so I went on this search and eventually found the path of Islam primarily because I believe that it's the only religion today that truly supports pure monotheism. I know that Christians and maybe we'll get into this,

Starting point is 00:08:06 and the discussion claimed to be, but I found doctrines like detrinity and incarnation to be completely incoherent and found problems with them. And the Islamic narrative of there being one and only true God that is worthy of worship and that he sent prophets and messengers with this consistent message throughout time was very inviting to me and fit with my natural disposition

Starting point is 00:08:36 and I became a Muslim in my early 20s, about 10 years ago and been Muslim ever since. Fantastic, thank you for that, Daniel. How about yourself? Yeah, my background is my parents came from Iran. They're both from Shiraz. I was born in the US actually and was raised here in Houston, Texas. And I love my parents. And they raised me like an Iranian, had a strong Iranian Persian identity. As I was in high school and then college, I started to become more religious,

Starting point is 00:09:05 like learning about my background from my grandparents, for example, from my dad. And I just became more religious, started practicing Islam. I became Sunni, so I'm from a Shia background. I became Sunni. And in college, I went to Harvard University. There was a lot of pressure on Muslims at that time because of the war on terror, counter-terrorism efforts,

Starting point is 00:09:31 and there was this effort to liberalize Islam and to say that traditional Islam or the Quran or the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. This is, their teachings are not consistent with modern life, with modernism and liberal secularism. And this posed a conflict for me, like how do I reconcile a traditional Islam with liberalism, secularism, and these modern ideologies.

Starting point is 00:09:57 So I went and studied philosophy and I became critical of these ideologies, like modern liberal secularism, humanism, atheism, these isms, and that's the title of my book, basically, or subtitle my book, is critiquing these isms that I believe, and through my study, they're destroying humanity, not just Islam, but just all of humanity, is under threat from these isms that are destroying human society. I hope we can talk about that today by dedicated my career basically to promoting this message, teaching Islam, teaching how Islam solves many of the problems and difficulties that all people

Starting point is 00:10:39 face in society, not just Muslims. I love that. Okay, thank you for that again, a gentleman. Thank you for sharing your background. So let's get right into it. Robert, your challenge. What is your biggest challenge with the religion of Islam? What's your biggest challenge with it? You mean the biggest, the biggest difficulty I see in it? I would say the biggest difficulty because to me, I see it from a few different places.

Starting point is 00:11:01 Right. One, there's faith, meaning none of us have gone to heaven to see what heaven's gonna look like. We're all taking a risk. All of us, you're taking a risk. Either we're all gonna be right, either we're all gonna be wrong, or either one of us is gonna be right. Meaning one group's gonna be right,

Starting point is 00:11:13 and the other's gonna be wrong. But we don't know that's faith, that's prayer. Of course, we've had great experiences in life to say I had a connection with God. I had a moment with that, that, that, and then that's individual to us, right? So to me, it's faith, it's religion, it's enemies, it's common enemies, it's the challenges that's going on in the world, specifically with America as being for the longest time, the

Starting point is 00:11:35 greatest country in the world. What is affecting that? And then there's a few other things I will talk about into as well. So for me, it's more from the standpoint of when you've said you've read the Quran dozens of times, you have you've studied it, you've written about it, you've talked about it, even that I think the government used two of your books in 2011 that why you're talked about, right?

Starting point is 00:11:54 I don't know what the two books were, I think one of them was about Prophet Muhammad. And, you know, so your background, you've been in this world. What is your biggest challenge and differences with the religion of Islam? Well, you know, probably the main thing is the sanctification of violence and the idea that God will bless and even calls upon the believers to commit acts of violence under

Starting point is 00:12:16 certain circumstances. Like Rashid here is an ex-Muslim, and so under Islamic law, as it's traditionally and classically formulated, he would be put to death. Muhammad said anybody who changes his religion killed him and it's still the position of all of the schools of Islamic jurisprudence, Sunni inshia, that the apostate should be put to death. Now obviously this is not something that means that every apostate has to always go around watching himself because you have to have somebody who's willing to do that. But those who do do it, they think, well, now I have done something that Allah has commanded and He will bless me for doing it. And me, myself, because I was standing up for the freedom of speech, 2015, Pamela Geller,

Starting point is 00:13:01 and I put on in Texas a Muhammad art exhibit and cartoon contest. And it was actually we featured a lot of classic Shiite Persian art depicting Muhammad as well as contemporary art that is was from a more critical standpoint. And a couple of jihadis came from Phoenix. Key members actually of the Islamic Community Center from Phoenix, key members, actually, of the Islamic Community Center of Phoenix. One of them was featured in a recruitment video for them, and they tried to kill us. And so I actually would be also under a death sentence, just for drawing Muhammad and for

Starting point is 00:13:41 sponsoring people who do, which I did not in order to cause gratuitous insult, but to defend the freedom of speech and freedom of expression, which is the foundation of any genuinely free society. Danny, what would you say to that? What's your response to that? Yeah, so just to a few points here, number one, it's interesting how we wanna talk about Islam as a religion, but the religion

Starting point is 00:14:05 is 95% like what Jake mentioned. It's about worshiping God being devoted to a righteous way of life, loving your neighbors, taking care of your parents. That's what 95% of Islam is about. Yes, there are criminal punishments which we're going to discuss. There is conquest, there is war theory, there's all of this in Islam. But it's interesting how when a conversation is about Islam, we focus on that 5% instead of the 95% of what Islam is about.

Starting point is 00:14:34 We don't see this kind of double standard with like Christians. So if you have someone like Matt Walsh, Matt Walsh is a traditional Christian. There's slavery in the Bible. There's punishment for blasphemers in the Bible. There's killing of heretics and the church tradition. There's no discussion of that with Matt Walsh, right? Or Ben Shapiro. There is killing of blasphemers in the Hebrew Bible. There is, you know, punishments for apostasy in the Talmud. There's no discussion of that with Ben Shapiro.

Starting point is 00:15:00 You can talk about, you know, other values, and that's what the discussion focuses on. But the Islamophobic narrative is just lasering in on these specific topics, which is fine. We can discuss that by just want to note the double standard. So the other framing of this whole discussion that I want to put out here, though, is that I'm wondering, like, this standard of, oh, there should be no punishment for blasphemy, for example. Let's just put that out there. There should be no punishment for mocking and insulting a religion, attacking people's values. Is that coming from a Christian perspective?

Starting point is 00:15:37 Is that coming from a tradition? Is that coming from the church tradition? Is that coming from the Bible? Because when we look at the Bible, we see in Leviticus, we see in Deuteronomy that blasphemers should be put to death. Even if you entice, the Bible says, if you entice like your son or your daughter

Starting point is 00:15:56 or your wife entices you to worship other than God, then have no mercy. Put them to death without due process mentioned, without any kind of court or tribunal, the husband or the father should just immediately put them to death without due process mentioned, without any kind of court or tribunal, the husband or the father should just immediately put them to death without mercy. That's what the Bible says. So, when Robert wants to criticize Islam, I'm wondering, is that criticism on the basis of the Bible?

Starting point is 00:16:16 Is that on the basis of the church tradition or is this a liberal secular modernist critique of Islam? So, I want to know, am I debating or discussing with two Christians or two atheists or two liberal secularists? Like, that's a clarification that we need. Bayeh? Yes. This is a very important clarification, and there are a couple of distinctions that have to be made. One is, all of your examples from Christianity are from Old Testament law, which if you had studied Christianity, you would know there's no sect of Christianity,

Starting point is 00:16:50 no school of Christian thought, no tradition within Christianity that holds that Old Testament law applies to Christians for all time, as a matter of fact, it never did apply. Even in Judaism, after the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, the rabbis redefined Judaism so that even they don't teach that those punishments have ongoing validity.

Starting point is 00:17:16 So you're talking about something that is, that nobody in mainstream Judaism or Christianity thinks is valid today versus something that unfortunately all too many Muslims do thinks is valid today versus something that unfortunately all too many Muslims do think is valid today. And the bringing up of ancient historical wrongdoing is all very well. And there's certainly a place for that. I've got no interest in denying any of the misdeeds of Christians throughout history. But the problem that we have in Islam is that these passages of the Quran

Starting point is 00:17:47 that are problematic, passages of Muhammad's traditions that are problematic, they are still considered to be in force. By very large numbers of Muslims, such that all the major terrorist groups around the world are Islamic groups. And you don't have any Christian terrorist groups saying Jesus is Lord and blowing people up. There's a reason for that. And the reasons have to do with

Starting point is 00:18:08 the interpretative traditions in both religions. Can I go ahead please? Yeah, so I would ask Robert a very simple question that I think gets at what the real issue actually is. Do you believe that it's inherently immoral for an apostate to be put to death? Do I believe that it's inherently immoral for an apostate to be inherently immoral? Well, I know this is some kind of trap, but in any case, I don't see any reason.

Starting point is 00:18:38 I'm just gonna be honest on your part, that's all. You can always have honesty on my part. Everything I tell you is the truth. Okay, so again. And the fact is that, yeah, I don't know, I tell you the truth. I have a thought about it. But you have a thought about it. Well, you're writing all these books on Islam to learn about the criticizing Islam. Right. And you don't even know if this is inherently moral. That's quite shocking, Robert. I would say that I don't think that it's moral to put the apostate to death.

Starting point is 00:19:01 So it's immoral. As it comes to my books about Islam, I'm just reporting on what Islamic clerics and the Islamic tradition teaches about passages like when Muhammad says if somebody changes his religion, kill him. So, if you look, for example, in chapter 4 verse 89 of the Quran and the critical Quran, where it says if they turn, renegade, then come and kill them wherever you find them, then I give Islamic authorities who actually say that this should be done. And that is something people need to know. Now whether you're talking about in the ideal society, you have apostates put to death,

Starting point is 00:19:35 I don't think so because I believe in the freedom of conscience and the idea that the of the dignity of the human person, which is a Christian concept that's not in Islam. You have an Islam, you know, the unbelievers are the most vile of created beings according to Chapter 90, verse 6. One issue, that's all. Let's talk about the Christian. I understand, but this is all the same issue. Whereas in Christianity, all people are equal in dignity as made in the image of God.

Starting point is 00:20:03 And so in that sense, I would say would say no I don't think it is. So is it inherently immoral yes or no? Yes or that? It is. So when the Bible, when Deuteronomy, since you like to quote the Quran, when the Bible says this in Deuteronomy 136, if your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your son of your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend, who as your own soul secretly entices you saying, quote, let us go and serve other gods, which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth,

Starting point is 00:20:41 you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, or conceal him, but you shall surely kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people, and you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the Lord your God, who brought he sought to entice you away from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt from the house of bondage. So all Israel shall hear and fear

Starting point is 00:21:12 and not again do such wickedness as this among you. So when, let me finish. Let me turn to the passage. So when you're loving God, Jesus Christ who you believe is God who revealed the Old Testament and revealed this as a law for the people. And you said that it's inherently immoral for the punishment of apostasy to be death,

Starting point is 00:21:34 then you are charging your own God and supposedly loving Jesus with immorality. Not at all. If you don't see that contradiction and hypocrisy, it's not in the least. You really do much for you. Well, it's not in the least contradictory or hypocritical because that is God actually ordering something directly. What's God wrong for that? Now, the question here is whether the Muslims,

Starting point is 00:21:56 when they put people to death for apostasy today, are likewise authorized by God in some direct manner. Now, obviously, yes, the question is, and it's not inherently immoral, it just matters what is the correct religion, and whether or not God is actually revealing it. Yeah, if you study the Old Testament, you will actually find that there's a great deal

Starting point is 00:22:17 of discussion about passages like that, and whether they are actually commands by God, whether they were understood, by the faithful interpretations, by the faithful, the evolving understanding in the Old Testament and the New, and in Jewish and Christian tradition, is something that unfortunately is absent in Islam, such that in Jewish and Christian tradition, you have the understanding of the dignity of the human person that ultimately made people realize

Starting point is 00:22:47 that putting people to death for apostasy was not something that was acceptable. But the idea that it was localized command at some point or understood to be such, that is not the same thing as people nowadays thinking they are the executors of the wrath of a law because Muhammad says if anybody changes his religion, kill him and the Quran says that you can soothe your heart by fighting the unbelievers and so on.

Starting point is 00:23:18 So brother Rashid for one brother Rashid, go for it. Because this is concerns me. Do you believe I should be put to death? I believe that the punishment for apostasy in a correct Islamic state is death. I believe that that's the correct meaning. You'll finish. Let me just respond to her.

Starting point is 00:23:37 I believe that that is the correct punishment which has been revealed by God both in the Quran and the Bible. And for Robert to turn around and say, Let me, let me finish. I asked you to believe I should be killed today. And I answered you, sir. Yes or no?

Starting point is 00:23:55 I answered you. Yes or no? I answered you. I said, yeah. I said, yeah, you answered me. In a proper Islamic jurisprudence, jurisdiction, Islamic nation, all of the laws of Islam and the Sharia as revealed by God should be applied. So if we were in that kind of state, would you do it?

Starting point is 00:24:14 Including. I'm not the one that asked. We do process with a proper court hearing, just like any nation of laws. The laws of the Sharia should be applied, including the death penalty for not only apostates, but also blasphemer, those who are in the storm. You didn't answer me, yes or no? We didn't, yes we didn't. Yes, so I should be killed.

Starting point is 00:24:33 We did answer that. I deserve to be killed because I left Islam and became a Christian. According to Islamic law, an apostate like you would be killed. Okay, thank you. And of course, let me, let me, this is a false theme. This is a fallacy, Robert. Two cock-wee. Like, you want to say, you have be killed. Okay, thank you. And of course, let me, let me, this is a fallacy. And it was a theme, this is a fallacy. Robert, two cockwee. Like you want to say, you have it too.

Starting point is 00:24:49 It's a fallacy. Let us discuss this because it's a fallacy. It's a fallacy. Let me finish. Let me finish. Let me finish. Please condemn Jesus.

Starting point is 00:24:58 Oh, you think you're going to condemn Jesus. Robert, Robert, let me finish. No, you're lying. Let me finish. Let me finish. Let me finish. That's finish. Let me finish. That's what happened.

Starting point is 00:25:07 You were actually a real liar. You were lying. You were lying. You converted from Christianity to Islam. Your life is not in the threat here in the US. I converted from Islam to Christianity. My life is in the debt. That's the difference between Christianity

Starting point is 00:25:25 and Islam. So let me ask you this. I got a question for you guys. I'm a data guy. I'm a finance guy. How many Christians have died going from being Christian to Muslim? How many Muslims have actually been killed or died going from being a Muslim to Christian? There's no data on that because these kinds of things are not recorded. They're not considered crying. There should be. In a right. I mean, shouldn't be shouldn't there, even if there's some stories to be able to say, you know, ex-wise, the individual, I have stories.

Starting point is 00:25:52 I have one in Mauritania who was condemned for to be executed. We just got him out to Paris because we negotiated with the government there. I have people right now in Libya. They are under death penalty in Libya. I have people who now in Libya, they are under debt penalty in Libya. I have people who got killed in Jordan, for example, because I do my show, people contact me. I have people who got killed in Jordan, their parents killed them because they became Christians from a Muslim background.

Starting point is 00:26:18 We have people in different places in the world, in the Muslim community, they killed them. And if they get to flee, that's the best outcome. I got a question. So while I'm studying this, there's also Daniel said something very interesting where the guidelines of Quran is based on the jurisdiction of the government, meaning where you live, the religion is, follow whatever the laws are of that nation. Meaning, you can correct me.

Starting point is 00:26:46 I'm just giving you what I've looked into. Does this mean these rules apply, no matter where you live, is that across the board, or is it more stricter in certain Muslim nations than other Christian nations? Islam is to be applied forever on every place since the time of Muhammad until today. So Muslims are just seeking to be a majority one day. And if Muslims are a majority today, these two brothers will witness my killing in front

Starting point is 00:27:15 of people. And they will be happy cheering the crowds that I was killed. So Islam is to be- If the US became majority Muslim today, you would be killed. I would be killed. I will be killed Sharia is to be applied everywhere every time and that's the biggest difference with Christianity because Jesus came in He stopped the Old Testament. He stopped every he didn't stone the lady who committed adultery He didn't he saved in in the law Tooth for tooth and he said no, you turn the other cheek.

Starting point is 00:27:45 Jesus stopped the Old Testament. They don't have a New Testament in Islam. They have worse than the Old Testament. They have something that Muhammad never corrected. So today we have to do, she had. Today we have to kill the apostate. Today we have to kill the person who doesn't pray, even a Muslim if he

Starting point is 00:28:05 stops praying if he stops praying he should be killed if he has no excuse he should be killed according to the law I'd like to give them a chance to respond Daniel what would you say because the point I think you were making was how that maybe doesn't apply based on what the countries are and then he makes a good point about saying but if us eventually becomes majority Muslim then that could be the criteria that we have to follow in U.S. What's your response to that? Yeah, so there are a lot of inaccuracies in what he's talking about. I want to reframe the issue because he's saying that his life is in danger, but the lives

Starting point is 00:28:37 of Muslims are in danger under a secular liberal hegemony. And I know that some of the viewers might not be following what I'm discussing, but look at the war on terror, or even look at me personally or Jake, but I say things that are contrary to liberalism, I critique and criticize liberal secularism. And what is liberal secularism? Is this philosophy that came out of the enlightenment

Starting point is 00:29:01 out of the 18th and 19th century in Europe? And it was imposed on the entire globe by force through colonialism, through imperial wars. And the idea of liberal secularism is that morality should not be based on these old books like the Quran and the Bible. We have to use reason and science to maximize individual happiness, individual freedom and equality. And this is the best system of life.

Starting point is 00:29:26 It's an atheistic system of life. We need to have separation of church and state, et cetera. This is the dominant, I don't want to say religion, but it's a dominant ideology in the world today. And it's imposed through, you know, the UN Security Council, International Rights Law, et cetera. But it's coming from a very specific philosophy that is anti-religion. It's anti-Islam. It's anti-Christianity, anti-traditional Christianity. I criticize this system.

Starting point is 00:29:51 And Muslims who criticize this system are put on watchlists, we're banned from traveling. Some of us are drone-striked, some of us are detained, some of us face all kinds of cancelling, de-platforming, our livelihoods are threatened. I get death threats all the time. Almost every day I'm getting a death threat because of my opposition to this hegemony, liberal secularism. There is no quote unquote freedom of religion

Starting point is 00:30:18 because if you oppose this hegemony, if you oppose this system, you will be put to death. And I know you've had some very distinguished guests like Glenn Greenwald, Whitney Webb, and they talk about this system, you will be put to death. And I know you've had some very distinguished guests, like Glenn Greenwald, Whitney Webb, and they talk about this system. Alex Jones, they talk about this system, they might not put in the same exact way that I'm putting it. But it is this authoritarian centralized,

Starting point is 00:30:37 not fear-credit technological system. And yes, plenty of people are getting killed. What was the Iraq war about? What was the Afghanistan war about? What was the Afghanistan war about? How many millions of Muslims were killed because of those invasions? What were those invasions justified on the basis of? It wasn't on the basis of the Bible. I wouldn't put that on Christians.

Starting point is 00:30:57 I would put it on spreading freedom, spreading democracy, spreading liberal values and quote unquote women's rights. That's what millions of Muslims in the past 20 years have been killed for, slaughtered, genocided because of this ideology. So yes, Muslims are under threat. Muslims are on far more threat than, you know, the few Christians here and there that might leave Islam to become Christian.

Starting point is 00:31:23 Go for it. Well, in the first place, when it comes to secular liberalism, Daniel and I are completely in agreement. We're both against it. We both see that it's evil. And in that sense, you know, you were talking about working together, finding common ground.

Starting point is 00:31:39 That is the common ground that we have. The idea of the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan were completely wrong, based on false premises, false assumptions, based on the idea that they could bring democracy to the Islamic world. It was never going to happen. I was warning about it before it started, but it was not heated. But the fact is that, and also, when it comes to death threats, we could probably have a contest and see, but I get them many, many, many daily, mostly from Muslims, but not always. And the left is increasingly unhinged and out of control.

Starting point is 00:32:19 But if Daniel is positing that Islam is somehow the alternative, then I would wonder, how is it that all the Muslim politicians in the United States, including a sharia, an obvious publicly sharia adherent, one like Ilhan Omar and Rashida Tleb as well, Keith Ellison, the Andre Carson, the publicly Muslim, Quran adherent politicians, and yet they're all very far on the left. And they're aiding this secular liberal monster that Daniel so rightly opposes. And so it's hard to see how Islam can be the remedy when you don't even have a single politician of the Islamic faith who is standing against all that. Brother Rashid, what's your biggest criticism of?

Starting point is 00:33:06 Because you were a Muslim before and you converted, what was your biggest reasoning for doing so? My biggest reason, and I want to comment on a point that I forgot to comment last time, our brother, he said, the 5% of Islam were focusing on. If you have this glass of water and you have 95 for it is water but 5% is poison, it's going to kill you. So this is exactly what we have with Islam.

Starting point is 00:33:34 Yes, you can talk about God, you can talk about worshiping, but how about violence against people like me? How about violence against Christians and Jews? You are ordered to wage war against them. That's what happened to my ancestors in Morocco, Berbers, they were Christians, they were executed, they were enslaved. That's what happened to people in Egypt, in Iraq, in Syria, and even in Europe. How about that? How about people who, for example, against women, Islam against women?

Starting point is 00:34:08 And we should note that they endorsed the death penalty for apostasy right here. Yeah, so let me, let me, let me, let me, let me just, let me just, let me just, let me just, let me just, and, and, and against women, women should be beaten if they do so they're, their,aid their husbands.

Starting point is 00:34:27 My mom was beaten, my imam dad. When I asked him why he said, it's in the Quran, you cannot object to that. They cannot object to it, it's in the Quran. It should be applied. It's a permission for men to beat his wife. It's in the Quran. It's the word of Allah himself.

Starting point is 00:34:45 Again, when I studied the life of Muhammad, in 10 years, he waged 83 wars in 10 years, 27 wars and 56 raids in 10 years. And you are gonna teach me that Islam is peaceful? No, it's not peaceful. Are you gonna give a noble prize for somebody who waged 83 wars? No, you's not peaceful. Are you going to give a noble prize for somebody who waged 83 wars? No, you will not and and another thing Muhammad is not a role model. Jesus is

Starting point is 00:35:13 Muhammad he had many wives 11 of them one of them she was nine years old. He was 53 I am 50 I cannot marry a girl that has nine years old. You cannot, that's abuse. And Muhammad did that. Let me finish this. He took, he raided a Jewish tribe. He killed the whole family of a newly bride called Safiya. And he took her as a wife the same time he was returning to Medina. Would you put that as role model for me today in the 21st century?

Starting point is 00:35:53 He had another wife, called Rihanna. My daughter, her name is Rihanna. I named her specifically for that. He took a Jewish wife, Rihanna, and he did sex with her. Not with her will. He did against their wills, all these ladies. Are you going to put him as a role model? You cannot compare Jesus with Muhammad.

Starting point is 00:36:16 Jesus never killed a person. He never killed an apostate. He never waged a war. So he was a role model for me. That's why I loved Muhammad and I wanted to follow Jesus. They are going to keep trying and bring the Old Testament. Name one person that Jesus killed because he was an apostate. Judas, he gave him to the Jews and he never ordered his disciples to kill him. I have people who just criticized Muhammad once and

Starting point is 00:36:45 He ordered his disciples to go and kill him even lying. His name is Kabab no ashraf He's a Jewish guy. They killed him. They lied to him. They took him and they killed him He even encouraged a guy who was blind. He killed his wife. He had two kids and he killed her. He came to the prayer and he said, Muhammad praised the guy for killing his own wife just because she criticized Muhammad. So these are the rules that they want to apply today. If we criticize Muhammad, we should be killed. Like what happened with Charlie Charlie Ibnou. Do you think those people did just kill the people who drove the caricature for Muhammad just because like that? No, because it's written in Islam that they should kill people who criticize Muhammad. So Islam is a big problem. Even the 5% can kill whole humanity.

Starting point is 00:37:42 Can I have a response? Sure, please go for it, Jake. I want to comment on what he said and also Robert's remarks about us endorsing the punishment for apostasy. Yes, we do. Why? Because our claim is that we are actually faithful to our scriptures.

Starting point is 00:38:00 You guys are not. You want to avoid the Old Testament and I want to give you an analogy, Patrick, because you're a business guy. You have many businesses, okay? And you have policies that you have to put in place based on social interaction in the workplace and all that kind of stuff.

Starting point is 00:38:16 Now, you may make amendments to those policies based on new data, new information, how things are actually going based on those things that you put in place. Now when you do, right, and this is the analogy between the Old Testament and the New Testament, are you willing to say that, well, yeah, thinking to myself, yeah, you were wrong actually when you said it was okay to do such and such, that was actually wrong and you then put in

Starting point is 00:38:43 the correct one. With the Bible, the problem that you have is the same one that you wanna talk about, the loving Jesus Christ himself, which we also adore and respect as a prophet, is the same one that you believe as God and revealed the Old Testament, and you can't get out of that.

Starting point is 00:39:01 So when your God, Jesus, revealed at that that specific time as I just read the passage, and I can read you plenty more, where he says to kill babies in war. Is it okay to target infants in war and kill babies? Is that inherently immoral? The problem that you have is if you go on, and this is why the argument is so important, it's not a two-quake, just as a fallacious argument. It's checking for your consistency as a Christian, whether or not you're actually faithful to your own text and tradition, and the reality is you're not.

Starting point is 00:39:34 Why? You have two options. If you condemn it as inherently immoral, then the whole Bible's gone, because if you believe that those verses in the Bible were revealed by God, then you you believe that those verses in the Bible were revealed by God, then you're saying that God is immoral. And on the other hand, if you say that it's not inherently immoral, but God changed the

Starting point is 00:39:53 law at this time, then most of your arguments lose the force that they have against Islam because you can no longer argue that it is inherently immoral to punish an apostate by death and all of the other things that you want to tack on. This is why it's so important. It's not a fallacious argument and the reality is we want to stick to our texts and our tradition and for the most part we would argue that the Christians have abandoned them in favor of secular liberal moral ideologies. Let me have Daniel respond, and then I'll come to you go for it.

Starting point is 00:40:27 Yeah, so there are a lot of things that we need to respond to, because he's just listing every grievance that he has against his time. We have to take it step by step. But just on this point of violence, I think Jake makes really the crucial point. It's that Jesus, according to the Christian belief,

Starting point is 00:40:41 Jesus is the God of the Old Testament, and he's the one who's commanding Moses, for example, to ethnically cleanse the Canaanites or the Amulakites or all of these other tribes and to conduct conquest and war, to take girls as slaves, to take virgins as slaves. This is in the Old Testament, sure. So you have to deal, Christians have to deal

Starting point is 00:41:03 with that moral problem. A lot of Christians unfortunately, they just throw the Bible under the bus. And how is that justified? But it's not just the Old Testament. It's also the New Testament. The New Testament also has endorses slavery. The New Testament also has the book of Revelation

Starting point is 00:41:17 where Jesus is going to come, which by the way, Muslims also believe that Jesus is the Messiah. He is the born of the Virgin Mary and he's going to come as the Messiah to establish God's Kingdom on Earth. Muslims also accept and believe that and we're anticipating that. But he's going to be very violent. It's going to be a very violent affair and that's in the Muslim tradition and the Hadith and it's also in the book of Revelation. So Jesus is

Starting point is 00:41:40 also very violent. And then finally, you have canon law. You have the church tradition. So if Robert wants to denounce canon law, because when you have canon law, it has slavery. It has a marriage age of 12 years old in canon law. It has punishments for blasphemy. It has even striking the wife, the disobedient wife. That's found in canon law from creation. So I believe that Robert is an Orthodox Christian. If he wants to denounce canon law

Starting point is 00:42:11 and denounce his own tradition, he can denounce that. He can denounce Jesus himself. He can denounce the Old Testament. He can denounce the Bible. The New Testament, that's fine. That's fine. He says that, oh, well, our religion adapts. Our religion changes.

Starting point is 00:42:24 But that's actually the problem, Patrick. You know, when we're talking about wokeism, when we're talking about like, if you can say that, oh, well, you know, that's the Old Testament is for those times. It's not applicable now, right? That's the argument, the violence, the killing, the killing of the blasphemers. That's for old times, we've changed, but Muslims are not willing to change. I said, yeah, Muslims are willing to stand by revelation. The problem with a lot of Christians, not all Christians, a lot of Christians, Jews, Hindus, they all have these practices in their books, Buddhists, they all have these practices, and they're pressured to change and update. And so why, if you can get rid of the conquest and the violence and the punishment for oposity, why not just get rid of the prohibition of like cross-dressing, the prohibition of homosexuality, the prohibition of drag queens, why prohibit any of that?

Starting point is 00:43:14 Like maybe times are different, maybe we need to adopt drag queen story hour in our church, maybe we need to adopt, you know, all of these woke practices, why not? And Robert, here's what I would say. You're making a very good argument. And I can totally feel where you're coming from as well. Obviously, just so everybody knows, have we ever had a conversation together prior to this debate? I just want everybody that's watching it. Have you and I ever spoken?

Starting point is 00:43:37 We just met. Few minutes ago. Have you and I ever spoken? Have you and I? I did that intentionally. I did that intentionally because I wanted to be the first interaction we have where it's not like, well, you know, this topic, do you want this, do you want that?

Starting point is 00:43:48 And nobody was given additional topics or are you just kind of came in? We're going to talk, we're going to have this discussion. Again, I respect you guys for doing this. I think the part I agree with Daniel, and it could be a leak, it could be a flaw or it could be a strength as well as the following. What I'm noticing between the two faith is one seems to be more intolerant and the other ones more tolerant. Let me unpack that from my perspective.

Starting point is 00:44:15 For the longest time since I became a, since I started praying September of 1997, I've prayed for four things. Courage wisdom tolerance understanding. The last six months I've been having a hard time praying for the third thing, which is tolerance. And the reason for this is because I think Christians are becoming way too tolerant. Now, the standards could be extreme.

Starting point is 00:44:33 Somebody could be watching the same guys. What are you talking about? You mean to tell me you're okay to hit your wife and do this and do that and apostasy and all this stuff? That's ridiculous for you to think that. And you may say, well, look, we're at least staying committed to our faith. They're not. They're picking and choosing what they like and they're not.

Starting point is 00:44:50 That could be the argument. All I'm saying is that's their argument what they're saying. But then the other side is, when you're saying what you're saying, you know, stats came out right now as well about pure research on statistics on Muslims view on LGBTQ. You're now going to go through this as well with your faith with your religion pure research says that fifty two percent of american muslims believe homosexuality should be accepted by society

Starting point is 00:45:13 this is according to pure research among muslim american millennials that jump to sixty percent this was done in twenty seventeen so six years old which i would assume it's even higher today than what it was then the survey also also revealed that Muslim women are much more accepting of LGBT people than their male counterparts. They're at 63 percent, men are at 42 percent, just so you know, the difference between women and men about 21 percent difference.

Starting point is 00:45:38 And a vast majority of religious LGBTQ Americans are Christians, split fairly amongst Catholics, 25%, Protestants, 28% and Christian denomination, 24 and a half percent, only about 2 and a half percent of Jews are Ford and 2% are Muslims. So he makes the point that you are more tolerant of a religion, when I say you, you're not representing everybody in the Christian, you could be your own kind of a Christian. There's different sex in the Christian. But from an outsider watching in and trying to be as fair as possible, I see we're not being tolerant.

Starting point is 00:46:16 You're not going to say anything about our profit. You're not going to say anything about our religion. We're going to defend this. These are our values. We're going to protect the weak and to fight for it. This is important to us. This is our livelihood. This is what we stand for.

Starting point is 00:46:27 And Christians are like, oh, it's OK. Don't worry about it. It's OK. Don't worry about it. And it's bringing out more flaws and arguments in the Christian religion. And I'm saying this as a Christian myself. What's your rebuttal to that? Well, what you're talking about in a large part is a retreat from and a rejection of Christianity,

Starting point is 00:46:44 not actual Christianity. Christianity stands for certain values, stands for certain principles, and when the west was Christian, then you didn't see all this craziness that you see in the society today. It's when the west starts to discard Christianity that all these things come in. Like Chesterton said, when people stop believing in God, it's not that they believe in nothing, they believe in anything. And we're seeing that illustrated every day now

Starting point is 00:47:10 with increasingly insane public discourse coming from the left, and especially a social discourse. But this is not Christianity. Now, to be sure, you're absolutely right. There are a lot of leftist and liberal Christians who have essentially discarded Christianity. And under the guise of Christianity, it's kind of like invasion of the body snatchers Christianity. You remember that movie? People would appear and they looked just the same.

Starting point is 00:47:36 But the space aliens had taken their personalities and replaced them. And that's what we have with a great deal of Christianity today. Unfortunately, it's been infected by exactly this kind of liberalism. And so a lot of people turn away thinking that's Christianity, when actually these people are not Christian and anything except the name. But there's a great deal more that Daniel mentioned. Am I going to get a chance? You can respond right now.

Starting point is 00:47:59 Okay. The thing, the problem that you guys have is that you're reading the Bible as if it were the Quran. In the Quran, it's dictated. Every Allah dictated every word and it's applicable for all time. It's all flattened out and on the same level. The Bible is simply not like that. In the first place, you have the very simple notation of the Gospels, the Gospel according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

Starting point is 00:48:20 Now in the Christian faith, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were inspired, but that doesn't mean that God was dictating to them and that it was beyond their human understanding. Like when St. Paul in one of his letters, and he says, I'm glad I didn't come to baptize any of you. Well actually I did baptize a couple people and I forget who else, but I still didn't come to baptize. It's not that God is forgetting who he baptized and who he didn't, but Paul is working from his human understanding, and yet he is speaking the truths, the eternal truths that God wants him to communicate. A lot of the Bible is the record of the evolving understanding of the people of God about precisely a lot of these issues that you're talking about. And so you can't go back and flatten it out as if it were the Quran and say Jesus is here telling people to kill people And therefore you have to approve of it. Jesus. That's not how the Bible works

Starting point is 00:49:12 What you have is an understanding that the people had at that time that's expressed in that way and then later because of the teachings That Jesus gives in the New Testament primarily of the dignity of the universal dignity of the human person and of various other aspects of the understanding of humanity. That's why slavery is abolished and slavery was only abolished in Christian contexts primarily in the UK and the United States start with and then it followed around the world because people understood even those slavery is in the Bible and in the New Testament. Yes, at the same time also there's the idea that all people are made in the image of God and have that dignity. So there's

Starting point is 00:49:56 not the dichotomy like in the Quran, Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah, those who follow him and merciful to one another ruthless to the unbelievers of chapter 48 verse 29. So, it was Christian clerics in the UK and the United States who led the fight to abolish slavery based on the deeper Christian principles regarding the dignity of the human person. Yeah, so why can't you evolve? Why can't Christians evolve to accept transgender

Starting point is 00:50:23 and drag queen story or why can't things evolve even more? Actually, because of the same principle. Yeah, it's a good question. I'm trying to answer it. There is, it's because of the same principles. The idea of transgender. Yeah, human dignity. And that means both physically and spiritually.

Starting point is 00:50:42 And so you take the transgender business. That's a total rejection of trust in God. And the idea that God knows what he's doing when he creates somebody male and female. That's the first thing the Bible tells us about God. That he created the heavens and the earth and that's on the human being. And we'll sure. And that's why they're wrong. The male and female he created. We are being tolerant for who we are. Yes. That's what they what they call. That's why they're wrong. They're wrong. That male and female people keep creating who we are. And who we are. Being tolerant for who we are. Yes. That's why we're

Starting point is 00:51:07 have calculated. We have heresies, a very clear cut principle. We have heresies in Christianity. That's what you do in Islam. No, but I want to understand what is the principle that I was just telling you that you have human dignity.

Starting point is 00:51:18 You're talking over me, but I'm trying to explain it to you. Because you're not answering the question. No, I actually am answering the question, but you keep interrupting me and making it impossible for me to make that point. You mean the principle?

Starting point is 00:51:28 So if you had the basic courtesy to be quiet for a second, then I will return it to you when you respond. Sure, go ahead. But the idea that when it says male and female, he created them, that's not just an incidental point, but that is fundamental to the human identity and to the nature of the person that has that dignity as being made in the image of God.

Starting point is 00:51:51 And consequently to say, oh no, God made a big mistake, and I'm really a woman, that is a fundamental rejection of any kind of Christian principle. That's always a trend, let me ask a question here for the point. I want to transition off this topic to the next topic. By the way, you know how the Constitution, we've had 27 amendments in the last however many years we've been around, right? Based on what he just said, my interpretation, what he said is the religion of Christianity has made many amendments over the years, okay?

Starting point is 00:52:21 Somebody could interpret as a new testament as a form of an amendment. You can push back. I'm just giving the audience, trying to see what the average audience may be thinking about. They may say, no, the Quran is the Quran is the Quran. We follow what was taught back in the days and we're sticking to it and there's no amendments.

Starting point is 00:52:37 What's your rebuttal today? Can I comment on this? Can I? Yes. You understand what I'm saying, right? I understand the question. I understand the question. First of all, they are talking about amendments.

Starting point is 00:52:46 They have something in Islam called abrogation. It's like an amendment. God says something and then He changes it. For example, he asked the question, was it moral to kill the apostate? I can ask in the same question. How about Zawaz al-Mut'ah? Like you marry for, like it was practiced in Iran a lot.

Starting point is 00:53:06 You just not inherently immoral. It's not inherently immoral. Why? We can answer it. Why? Why it was stopped. Why Muhammad stopped it? If it was immoral, the difference.

Starting point is 00:53:17 I'm just giving you an example. Let me ask you a question. No, no, I'll let you answer. I'll let you answer. In Christianity, Jesus came, He stopped so many things in the Old Testament. That's our Principle. He stopped for example sacrifices. We don't sacrifice animals. He stopped the adulterers to be stoned. He stopped so many things like tooth for tooth. He stopped that. So Jesus stopped so many things in the Old Testament. You want to accept that. That's that's your choice. For example, why his disciples never killed an apostate. Why his disciples never

Starting point is 00:53:53 waited? They didn't have political power. As soon as Christians gained political power in the Roman Empire, they started doing these things. They didn't have the jurisdiction to do so. They didn't care. They were the minority, they weren't in power. As soon as Christians gained power within the Roman Empire, they applied the Old Testament laws, the New Testament law. It's not true. It's not modified. And the canon law, you know, are you there? You're the canon law?

Starting point is 00:54:15 I want to talk about that. Let me explain the canon law. Brother, she can get closer to Mike Sodyad, he has to hear it. Jesus never waged a war. He never ordered one. They were other Jews who did kill Romans and who did kill people, Zealot.

Starting point is 00:54:35 The people called Reurun. So Jesus never ordered that. His disciples got killed, not waged war. They got killed. They never killed a person. Slavery, the apostle Paul, he said, in Jesus there is no slave or free. And that's why the abolitionists,

Starting point is 00:54:54 they started in the West. I have a question for you. You are benefiting from human rights and freedom of religion in the US. And you are trying to get us back to Sharia, for example. You converted from Christianity to Islam. And you want to bring a law that kills that apostate. Do you want to be killed for converting from Christianity

Starting point is 00:55:16 to Islam? Do you want that? Do you believe it's correct? Do you want it? Do you believe it's correct? So he then answered the question. Do you want it? Give us the principle.

Starting point is 00:55:25 The principle is the golden rule. Do not do to people what do you don't want them to do to you. You talk for a long time. Can I respond, please? Okay. Both of you keep running from the Old Testament and the argument that I've given. Jesus stopped it.

Starting point is 00:55:40 We are not running. Jesus stopped it. We let you speak for a while, sir. Please let me talk, okay? Is Jesus God? Well, yes, the answer is yes. You do believe that. Did God reveal at least parts of the Old Testament?

Starting point is 00:55:54 Well, of course you believe that. Now Robert wanted to make a distinction. He brought up an example about Paul trying to remember how many people he baptized is. Baptized. But in the Old Testament, when it says that God is speaking and that God commanded X, was that just somebody making it up or misremembering? No, the Bible says it's

Starting point is 00:56:15 God. So listen to this passage. First Samuel 15, 1 to 3, and Samuel said to Saul, the Lord sent me to anoint you king over his people, Israel. Not, oh, I'm just talking at it, you know, my backside. Now therefore, listen to the words of the Lord. Who are they? They're the words of the Lord. They're not the words of Samuel or your neighbor John or whoever else. Thus says the Lord of hosts. I have noted what Amoleek did to Israel in opposing them

Starting point is 00:56:46 on the way when they came out of Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction. All that they have do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey. So do not tell me, sir, that God, Jesus, did not order the killing of innocent people. He not only did he do that, he ordered the killing of babies,

Starting point is 00:57:16 none of which you will ever find anywhere in the Koda'an or Sunnah. So if you have a problem, let me finish, sir. You don't have it in the scene, let me finish, sir. If you have a problem, let me finish. You don't have it in the name of God. Let me finish, sir. If you have a problem with God ordering death for apostasy and all these other things that you're bringing up, Robert, when you bring up the issue of Paul, well, he's trying to remember how many people he baptized.

Starting point is 00:57:38 Is that analogous to this text where a prophet Samuel is explicitly saying that these are the words of the Lord. What Samuel lying did God actually say this? And if so, is killing babies inherently immoral when at war? Yeah, killing babies is bad, Jake. Yes.

Starting point is 00:57:59 Is it inherently immoral? Yeah. So why did your God order the people? Why did Jesus order it? Why did your God, Jesus, the prophet, why did your God, Jesus, the Jesus order it? No, see, Jesus, the problem, why did your God Jesus come and go into the healing of infants? If you'll let me answer, the problem that you have once again

Starting point is 00:58:13 is that you're reading the Bible as if it were the Quran. And see, these things actually trouble Jews and Christians. There's no reason to cover up that fact that these passages have caused difficulty for Jews and Christians throughout history. And some people would say, actually, these things never happened at all, that they were fables designed to teach, that they were fables designed to teach, that believe that they were fables designed to teach that you are to be completely pure and reject sin and that all that business about killing this one

Starting point is 00:58:52 and that one is about rejecting various sins. Well, we want to know your point. Now, the whole point of what I'm saying here, if you would stop interrupting for a minute, I did not interrupt you. The whole point of what I'm saying here is that these passages precisely in the fact that they have caused trouble for Jews and Christians and have led to differing interpretations of them

Starting point is 00:59:15 demonstrate that the Jews and Christians both have a evolving understanding that comes from later revelations and that comes from their own interpretation of the revelations that they received, such that they can say unequivocally that, yes, killing innocent people is wrong. Whereas you have Muhammad and they ask him, you know, you're throwing rocks, you're catapulting stones into the infidel's city, they have women and children in there and he says, oh, they're among them. In other words, it doesn't really matter

Starting point is 00:59:52 if you kill women and children because they're all infidel's. And you don't have any kind of critical stepping back and saying, babe. This episode is brought to you by Wealth Simple. You work hard for your money. Does it work hard for you? It will at WealthSimple, where you can earn 4.5% interest if you're a premium client by stocks and ETFs commission-free

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Starting point is 01:01:05 you're sure? Get answers you can trust from Salesforce at AskMoreVai.com. See that is not to be that's the one I'm talking about. Can you read this time? Yeah, permissibility. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no one of the there's no women and children in night raids and the beginning and the stuff for beginning and the and the and the and the

Starting point is 01:01:32 and the and the and the and the and the and the and the and the and the and the and the

Starting point is 01:01:40 and the and the and the and the and the and the and the and the and women and children of the polytheists being killed during the night raid said they are from them. In this is Sa'am Muslim 75 by Bay. And that once I make the point, yeah, that that is giving permission. And that's actually was invoked by Zarkawi, the al-Qaeda leader in Iraq, when he was explaining why women and children were killed by the G-Hod bombings and he was actually justifying it among Muslims and he invoked to

Starting point is 01:02:09 that passage. Okay, so the difference is if you actually read the next Hadith afterwards, it clarifies it, sir. And yes, if you're talking about bombardment or collateral damage in which an infant or child or a woman may be harmed. And inadvertently. And inadvertently and unintentionally, then yes, that can happen. It's not a good thing that we enjoy in war, but if it happens, so be it. The difference is that in this text, it's specifically commanding from God. And what you said before, well, some Christians say, well, it's not actually historical, maybe it didn't happen.

Starting point is 01:02:47 Well, I don't care about other Christians with all due respect for this conversation. We're talking to the two of you and the two Muslims, and we are representing our positions. So we want to know from you, do you believe that first Samuel 15, 1 to 3, was revealed by by God and that God himself ordered directly, intentionally, for the killing of babies and infants. Let me answer that. Let me answer that. You are judging a war that happened three thousand years ago by this, just, just wait. You are judging a war that happened three thousand years ago by the standards of today. The difference between the Old Testament and Islam, we believe those applied for those circumstances and stayed there, these should not be applied today.

Starting point is 01:03:37 Islam, she had should be applied in the time of Muhammad today and forever. So killing the kids of politics, Muhammad answered, they are from them. They are just politics like them. So it's okay to kill them. And let me tell you about killing kids. How you define a kid in the raid of Bani Qurayda. Bani Qurayda, Jewish tribe.

Starting point is 01:04:01 Muhammad came and he said, check the hair of puberty for every kid. If you find one here, you can kill him because he's considered an adolescent. So they killed 600 people on that day. You wanna tell me that doesn't exist in Islam? I know it exists in Islam. And I know if you got authority today, you will do it.

Starting point is 01:04:26 There's what I wanna do. I wanna have Daniel give a response and then I'm gonna go to the next topic. Go for Daniel. Okay, so Banu Khorayda, those, that was a tribe that betrayed the Muslims in war. So that was an act of treason, every legal system in history, every religion.

Starting point is 01:04:42 When you do an act of treason and war, what is the punishment for that? Capital punishment. And that was what was applied. The punishment fit the crime. The point that Jake made is that the prophet, peace be upon him, explicitly forbade the intentional killing of women and children in the Hadith that you didn't mention. So this is dishonest.

Starting point is 01:05:03 You read one Hadith from the book of Jihad in Sahih Muslim, but you don't read the other Hadith. So that is dishonest on your part, sir. And then let's bring it back to the overall picture because for your viewers, many of them might not be Muslim or Christian. They think like both of you guys are crazy. Both of you, your religion sound ridiculous.

Starting point is 01:05:25 So I want to defend not only traditional Islam, but also traditional Christianity. I want to defend, I think that's what building bridges is really about. Defending traditional religion, where every religion has conquest, it has violence, it has rules of war, and guess what, we live in a world of real politics. Every nation is engaging in war of conquest, expanding its influence, and using violence as a means. The U.S. is the biggest perpetrator of that.

Starting point is 01:05:58 The Russia now is doing that in Ukraine, endorsed by the Orthodox Church, by the way. You have China, who is also expanding its influence. So, every society, every culture, every traditional religion says, yes, use means, violence, if necessary, to expand your influence and to conquer and to conquest and to impose, impose what, your values. That is something universe, as Muslims were proud of that. Sorry, as Muslims were proud of that, we're proud of our religion and we're not going to reform it and modify.

Starting point is 01:06:30 It's only modern Christians actually and these other religions that are reforming their traditional beliefs in deference to what? In deference to this hegemonic that I'm talking about, the liberal secular powers and saying, no, no, no, our religion is just about peace, our religion is just about like no violence, no nothing. Okay, you have to throw all your traditional texts under the bus. Most of them are not willing to do that. And that argument has been made clearly and the audience has to decide which to them seems more of a faith, which leads me to the next question, a faith where you would want

Starting point is 01:07:04 to raise your family in a country based on those values. So in America, when you look at the statistics, you'll see 20,000 Christians have converted to Muslim, right? Of which 75% are women, with the number we'll see three-quarters are women and a quarter are men. Okay, the question I would have is I lived in Iran for 10 years. I don't know if you guys have lived in a Muslim nation before, did you live, did you, did you live,

Starting point is 01:07:28 obviously you lived in Morocco? Have you lived in a Muslim, you're here? So I lived in Iran 10 years as a Christian family and we would go to church and I went to Christian school and then we escaped and went to Germany. We lived at a refugee camp with a lot of different sex from different parts of the world who were escaping.

Starting point is 01:07:44 They were either escaping communism or they were escaping, not feeling safe persecution for their religion, what they believed in. They didn't have the freedom they left. Why is it? This is a question that's been brought up when I'm crowdsourcing. What questions you want us to ask to guess that are here today? If it's purely statistical, why are more Muslims moving to Christian nations and not Christian nations moving to Muslim nations? Why do you think that is?

Starting point is 01:08:10 It's economics, pure economics. If you look at Christians that move to Saudi and the Gulf, there's a huge influx of Christians from the Philippines, from Africa, from Eastern Europe, that flock to the Gulf countries, Muslim countries, why? Because of GDP, because of the economy, the influx of people of all religions and cultures to the US, to Australia, to Europe, it's purely because of economic opportunity, not because of there is some kind of better way of life.

Starting point is 01:08:41 The way of life in the US, and I can talk to you, because you live 10 years in Iran. The culture of traditional societies, especially Muslim societies, is much more conducive to family. It's more of a family community-based life as opposed to an individualistic rat race. Everyone is out for himself, type of lifestyle that you live in the West.

Starting point is 01:09:03 And that's because of the hegemony that we're talking about, because of liberal secularism, because of this pursuit of happiness at the expense of all else. When you have a religion that values family marriage, look at the divorce rates, look at how I have five sons of my own. I'm very worried about will they even be able to find a wife

Starting point is 01:09:23 who will be faithful to them and who will want to have children, find a wife who will be faithful to them and who will want to have children, my grandchildren, who will be faithful. Look at the divorce rates, look at the infidelity rates, look at all of the social problems that are infecting Western societies. Why is that? I would argue it's on the basis of leaving traditional Christianity, leaving traditional Islam, reforming these religions. That's the problem.

Starting point is 01:09:46 Look at someone like Resa Aslan, you interviewed him. I had a one, yeah. And you had a brilliant comment. You said that when you're talking, I feel like you're an atheist. You're arguing, I don't think that you're actually a Muslim. Like you're not talking like you're a Muslim.

Starting point is 01:10:00 You're talking like this progressive, liberal, atheist type person. And that's what's happening to everyone because of these political forces. And we have to resist that. We have to resist those kinds of influences in order to preserve marriage, preserve family, preserve community. That exists in the Muslim world, but it's being eroded. So why are you still here?

Starting point is 01:10:23 Why are you in America? Why don't you go to a Muslim nation? I would like to do that, but the thing is that the West has declared war on every traditional society. Every Trident, if you don't implement Western style liberal human rights quote-unquote, like you don't legalize homosexuality, you don't legalize transgender, you don't legalize feminism, all these things are destroying marriage and family, we're going to bomb you. We're going to sanction you. We're going to starve your people.

Starting point is 01:10:51 It's not safe for Muslims to be in Muslim countries. It's not safe for traditional Christians. In traditional Christians quoting the Bible within Europe are being put in prison. For quoting the Bible, they'll literally quote a verse from Leviticus or they'll talk about Sodom and Gomorrah. They're put in prison for quoting the Bible. They'll literally quote a verse from Leviticus, or they'll talk about Sodom and Gomorrah, they're put in prison.

Starting point is 01:11:08 This is a war on all traditional religions, and there is not a safe place for a traditional religious person in the world today because of this dominant global power. So your argument is economy, capitalism, you know, a capitalistic society. So then the question would be, why don't Muslim regions accept the principles

Starting point is 01:11:29 of a capitalistic free society to be able to attract other Christians? Because when you hear some stories, I got that. Brother Rashid, do you ever respond to him? On this question, specifically the question I'm asking, why do Christian nations attract Muslims, but Muslim nations not attract Christians? He say the economy is the first reason, but other reasons exist too. I have seen

Starting point is 01:11:52 so many Saudi girls leaving Saudi Arabia going to Canada and the US and the UK asking for asylum because they don't have the same rights and they are forced to stay as a second class status. Women is not treated well in Muslim countries. I have seen people who are leaving Morocco and other places because they don't have freedom of speech. And if you say anything against Islam in Egypt or Morocco or for me, for example, why I left Morocco? I love Morocco.

Starting point is 01:12:24 I would love to live among my family, but I left not because of the economy. I was doing well, but because I don't have freedom of religion and there are many countries that are like that. If you open the borders in Europe and the US, you have almost probably, I can't guess, but like probably 90% of Muslims will go to the West, not just because of money, it's because of other

Starting point is 01:12:51 reasons. They are oppressed there. And our brothers, they have their solution to what will live is not what I am here. Of course, we have a problem in the West, but the solution they are given is worse than what we have today. For example, LGBTQ whatever, they will kill them if we bring us, let's say, let them govern with Islam today. They will throw them from a higher building. That's their punishment. I'm not with that. I'm not either this, the two extremes, either this or that. Islam is not going to give a solution. Why we have human rights in the West? Why everything we are enjoying today came from the

Starting point is 01:13:34 West. For example, women rights came from the West. Abolishing slavery came from the West. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion came from the West. You name it, just give me anything. The democracies came from the West. So they want us to live under an authoritarian system and you cannot even question it. And if you say anything against it, you will be condemned to death. For example, if I say Islam is not the right way to God, I cannot say that in a Muslim country. I will be punished for that. So we are enjoying freedom of speech, freedom of religion, democracy. We can say our opinion.

Starting point is 01:14:16 We can have a podcast like that without a problem. Guess what? In Morocco, whenever we came to Christian, we met as Christians in closed doors. We couldn't sing. We couldn't baptize people We couldn't name our kids Christian names. You cannot name him Luke or Mark or anything You have to name him Muhammad and Omar and Abu Bakr. You can't name them Christian names. This is not true It's true. I loved it. It's not in Islamic law. Okay. Do you know Ahlem Ahle-Dhima? Do you know the possible law of Islam? I'm an apostate.

Starting point is 01:14:46 Yeah, you don't talk about other Christians. Christians can name their children. You lived in Islam. Okay, I'm a sub-country. Okay, let me finish. Let me finish. Let me finish. Let me finish.

Starting point is 01:14:56 I am a convert from Islam to Christianity. That's right. It had hundreds like me, girls and boys, we were gathering, we were afraid of police, and we got arrested many times, we got into a game. Let me get this straight. So I wanna understand what both of you are saying.

Starting point is 01:15:11 So for us, I was born in a Muslim country, my name is Patrick, my sister's name is Paulette. You're saying if a Muslim converts to Christian, you can't just name your kids anything, you have to name them those specific names. Yes. And you're okay with that. You think that's normal. I said something even more than that.

Starting point is 01:15:29 I said that the punishment is death penalty. So forget it. That's what we talked about. Not at the beginning. Go past the holy kid. So for you, it's not even your level for that is for somebody to go. But why is that? But that's not the treatment of all Christians.

Starting point is 01:15:40 I totally get that. But why do you believe that? Why do you believe if for Muslim becomes a Christian as the death penalty? Why do you believe that? Well, this is what I want to explain, is that, first of all, this is found in every religion. It's found in every culture, the idea that you have

Starting point is 01:15:54 to have punishments for defection, meaning that if you abandon the group, you are threatening the group. And that's why every business, every university, every society has community guidelines, for example. If you violate the community guidelines, it's not called blasphemy, it's called a violation of community guidelines, you're expelled from that community, you face consequences. But it goes beyond that because you have restrictions on your speech, right? We can't look at this YouTube channel.

Starting point is 01:16:26 I can't say certain things on this livestream. Otherwise, the video will be banned, your channel will get in trouble. And then you can be prosecuted. You can face all kinds of consequences. Again, go back to your Glenn Greenwald interview, your interview with Whitney Webb. Look at the power structures that restrict speech.

Starting point is 01:16:43 They restrict thought why in order to preserve the power structure, restrict speech, they restrict thought in why in order to preserve the power structure, every religion has this traditional Christianity. That's why heretics were punished. That's why apostates were punished in the food and asked follow up on that. So when you say to me, you know, I've interviewed almost any of the major living mobsters. I've had them on the podcast before. I don't know if that's your stuff that you would watch, but I've interviewed a lot of them,

Starting point is 01:17:07 Samy to Bill Michael, friends, and a lot of these guys. Okay, so I can see you with your last name yet. So, so when I interview these guys, one of the things that they have in Sammy is a very much of it. He says, look, I'm a mafia also. I'm a true mafia also is what I'm,

Starting point is 01:17:24 till today, he's in his late 70s. He still says that, right? If you step away from the life, I get to say, you could get killed if you step away from the life, right? Okay. You chose this life. You celebrated when you become a made man. Now you want to leave? You got the benefits of being a made man. Now you want to leave. We're going to take your life. If based on the principles that they followed, but that's the mafia. You, for somebody that may say, well then Islam is, you know, is Islam following some of the mafia philosophies

Starting point is 01:17:55 that if you choose to leave, you deserve to get, to lose your life. Don't you think that's a bit extreme? I would say the problem with the mafia is criminal activity. It's not with this principle. This is a good principle. That's why they're. I would say the problem with the mafia is criminal activity. It's not with this principle. This is a good principle. That's why they're able to be so organized.

Starting point is 01:18:09 That's why they're able to be so successful. That's the argument. And you have nations that are run in the same way. You have to preserve the nation by punishing defection because it threatens the unity of the group. It threatens the way of life. It's tough, to man. That's the law.

Starting point is 01:18:24 I totally understand it. All I'm life. It's tough, to him, and that's a thing. But that's the law. I totally understand it. All I'm saying is that's tough because, okay, so let me get to the business side, the next side. Let me just add a little bit to it. Go for it. I will be killed, my kids will be taken, and my wife will be taken, just to add to the list in an Islamic system.

Starting point is 01:18:41 Let me continue with this, let me continue with this a little bit, because this is getting interesting to me. So if in insurance, there's two ways to build or real estate. There's two ways guys build their real estate in their insurance companies. Let me explain this and you'll see where I'm going with this question.

Starting point is 01:19:00 One is there's guys that steal from other people, okay? And I'll say, oh, you train those guys, I'll take your agents. You train those guys, I'll take your agents. You're getting 60%, I'll give you 80% if you come to my company. So their entire business model is to take from others, right? And then they're always kept

Starting point is 01:19:18 because somebody else is not gonna come and say, he gave you 80, I'll give you 100. And it's another, go to different guy. And then the other guy will say, hey, he gave you 100, I'll give you 110. Then they'll another go to different guy. And then the other guy will say, hey, he gave you 100, I'll give you 110. Then they'll realize there's only 130. So how much more is love to do? I'll give you 115 if you come to me five more.

Starting point is 01:19:30 I'll come to you. And then eventually, you're stuck. You're not gonna go anywhere, right? Okay. So they're not these agencies are not baptism agencies. They're converting agencies. I'll convert you to me by me giving you a better life or better having or better, you know,

Starting point is 01:19:47 the dream that I'm selling to you, right? For me, the way I see it is on, and then the other side is guys that recruit people from other industries and they make them realtors. So I'm working at Sears. You should consider getting a real estate license. I convert you. You're a nurse.

Starting point is 01:20:01 You should think about being a realtor. I become a realtor. So you understand the two examples I'm given. I'm recruiting other realtors. I'm converting think about being a realtor. I become a realtor. So you understand the two examples I'm given. I'm recruiting other realtors and converting somebody into being a realtor. Hence, religion, Muslim, I'm targeting Christians to convert them. No, I'm converting people that are, you know,

Starting point is 01:20:15 becoming Muslims or just we're having more kids and that's how we're gonna grow a religion. Okay, so the criticism and fear that a lot of Christians will say, non-Muslims will say, if we go the way we do right now, one day Muslims are going to run the world, do you not fear that? And you'll hear that. Okay, and by the way, it's a fair argument because right now the number is, give or take the Muslim population worldwide, I think is around 1.7 billion and it's expected by back to by twenty sixty to grow by seventy three seventy four percent to three point one billion today they're twenty four point one percent of the world population by twenty sixty you'll be thirty one point one percent these are some real numbers

Starting point is 01:20:54 that they're increasing and christians will say you're not are you not worried about that are you not worried about that are you not worried about that okay so then my argument becomes, because I'm a data guy, Muslim women have 2.9 kids per woman.

Starting point is 01:21:10 Christians are around 2.5, 2.6, non-Muslims are 2.2, and you know the replacement game, you need to have 2.1. So 2.1 is a replacement game, 2.2 is non-Muslims. Christians are 2.6, and then you have Muslims eating the way 2.9. By the way, in the 90s, you were at 4.3, 4.5.

Starting point is 01:21:27 In 1990, 1995, you're 30 years ago, you were at 4.5, 4.3. So where am I going with this? So where I'm going with this is if this goes the way it does and they do what they do, it is very natural that the Senate, that Congress, that House, that governors are going to be ran by Muslims right now. You have three that are there.

Starting point is 01:21:49 You mentioned the names earlier. They used to be one in the past. That's four, but we had 82 in the midterm election who are Muslims that got elected to city, stay different kind of jobs that they had record breaking ever, right? So if I don't look at it from the faith standpoint, if I don't look at it from the faith standpoint, if I don't look at it from the religion standpoint, if I don't look at it from the argument of who's right, who's wrong, Muhammad Jesus, if I don't look at it from there, I would simply say their strategy of, their strategy of growing is kicking

Starting point is 01:22:17 Christians' tale. So then Christians can either sit there and complain about it or they can do something about it, but Christians don't wanna have that many kids. Christians are not having four or five, six kids. He has five, we said you have five sons? You have five sons? Okay, he's got five sons. I don't know how many of you have five sons at the same time. I got two and two girls.

Starting point is 01:22:35 Five sons is gonna be the rest of us, right? If he's gonna keep having these kids. So what is your solution as a Christian? And I'm purely talking business right now. The business of religion is what I'm talking right now. According to the business of religion, they're going to win and there's nothing Christians can do about it by the business.

Starting point is 01:22:52 You can set an argument of faith all you want. They're getting their people and their kids baptized because their job isn't recruiting Christians to become Muslims. They've only converted 20,000, that's not a lot. It's not a big number, but they're getting more kids and they're raising their kids with the loyalty to the parents and they're following that faith

Starting point is 01:23:10 and they're growing bigger and we're not doing that. What are your thoughts to that? Well, if you're asking me what the solution is, obviously Christians have to recover a sense of their faith and a sense of what's at stake because what you're talking about will happen if this continues is that the United States will look like Egypt or Saudi Arabia or Iran. Those were not always the heart of

Starting point is 01:23:33 the Islamic world. Those were conquered and Islamized. And the Christians were like Rashid was saying, were put, made second class, made subject to all kinds of humiliating and discriminatory regulations, and had to pay a special tax that's specified in the Quran, chapter 9, verse 29. And they ultimately, most of them in those areas, and in North Africa, other areas like that, they, many of them thought, you know, why am I suffering this, and having to live in this way? All I have to do is convert to Islam, and I can live a decent life, and most of them thought, you know, why am I suffering this? And having to live in this way, all I have to do is convert to Islam, and I can live a decent life, and most of them did. And so you have areas that were 99% Christian,

Starting point is 01:24:11 and now they're 99% Muslim. And so people don't realize, they think they look at Egypt, and they say, well, that's the Islamic world. They don't realize that these things are always in flux, and that exactly what happened there is beginning to happen in the West. And so I think that if Christians were to come to realize what's at stake, which would be extraordinarily difficult,

Starting point is 01:24:33 given the amount of propaganda and falsehood that spread about these issues in the mainstream, then they might begin to realize that they need to take care of. What's the solution? What's the next steps? What is the solution for your standpoint? They have to have larger families certainly and have to meet the the the Dawah the Prostletizing initiatives and be able to answer all the objections to show the the inhumane Aspects of Christians are not that united these guys are right exactly Christians are competing against each other Muslims are more united

Starting point is 01:25:05 Yeah, no, no, I disagree to that. We have she out. We have Sydney They are fighting each other. I agree with you Fair enough. Yes, and so they are not really united and if you go to Salafis they will make the Sophie's as Mushriks, but would you agree that Sunnis and Shia's are united at least in the values? Not necessarily because you know the cousin or you know that's the history part where who got the past and I'm talking purely values and philosophies. You know what Muslims will claim where 1.7 and when you ask them

Starting point is 01:25:35 details they will be Ahmadis or not Muslims, she are not Muslims and you will find just the guy and his mosque at the end instead of 1.7. I live that when you really scrutinize them, you will find just the guy and his mosque at the end instead of 1.7. I lived that when you really scrutinize them, you'll find just the guy in his mosque. They are the ones, actually Muhammad said his people will divide to 73 groups and one of them only go to heaven. So 72 of them, they're just like,

Starting point is 01:25:59 Kofar, they are not really Muslims. So let's go back to that. A replacement rate, for example, in some countries like Iran, it's below, it's below 2.1. In Turkey, it's below 2.1. In others, they are below that. So there is, there is a huge drop. For example, in Morocco, I think it was like 6.9, and now it's like 2.8 or 2.7. So next generation will be below replacement rate. So you will suffer also from, from from you believe that. I believe their numbers is going to go below the Christian replace. I will believe

Starting point is 01:26:29 they will drop because we have so many challenges, economy, so many other things. And another thing they don't count how many people are leaving Islam. We don't have statistics. I have statistics for example, people who write to me according according just to my show, from Morocco, from Algeria, from Iran, for example, so many people are leaving to atheism, to Christianity, to other worldviews, and Egypt in Saudi Arabia. So they don't count that. I still counted as a Muslim in the 1.7, and many people like me. So if they give freedom and we do real surveys, So if they give freedom and we do real surveys, we will have the number less. Another thing, what Islam is left?

Starting point is 01:27:08 The West forced Muslims to abolish slavery, to not practice the real Islam like imputing hands and feeds and crucifying. They are now forcing them to have one wife. So Islam, the version of Islam and the Muslim world is not really what they are preaching. So what Muslims do we have? According to their standards,

Starting point is 01:27:30 probably most of them are kefir. And not only that, it's because of the death penalty for apostasy that this is unreported, but also there was a survey and people did answer the anonymous survey recently in Iran, only 40% of the population identified as Muslim.

Starting point is 01:27:46 Now, that's extraordinary, and it shows how inhumane Sharia Islamic law is. I don't remember who read it, but it's easy to find. We can look it up here. Can you look it up here? 1979, so now we've had Islamic law in Iran, and now only 60% of Iranians have rejected Islam, that's because they've lived it since 1979 and they realize how much they don't like it. Yeah, I just want to comment because they're talking a lot about the

Starting point is 01:28:12 supposed disunity amongst Muslims as if you don't have that in Christianity, right? Oh, yeah, you do. You do, right? So Rashid, I know that Robert here is Eastern Orthodox, he used to be Catholic. What denomination or sect of Christianity you belong to? Because we are converts in Morocco, we don't follow anything. We just follow. I'm saying like, do you go to a specific church? I went to many. Orthodox Protestant, I don't care. Okay, so anyway, my point is you have the three main sects in Christianity, the Protestants,

Starting point is 01:28:47 the Catholics, the Eastern Orthodox. Historically, they fought with each other over very, you know, what, from the outside, people would think, well, why are they fighting over this? I mean, today, the Orthodox and Catholics are fighting over doctrines like the Filioque way, whether or not the Holy Spirit precedes for it from the Father and the Son, or the Father alone eternally. And they're completely divided on this

Starting point is 01:29:11 and call each other heretics and all kinds of stuff. So to act as if, right, there's this division among Sunnis and Chia, when, as I think Patrick rightly pointed out, we have much more in common in terms of our actual values We differ in terms of certain historical doctrines, but that's another story. On the other hand, you have so many different sex within Christianity, so many different denominations, all of them disagree and consider each other to be heretics. So for you to make that accusation and critique of Islam, I just don't think is correct.

Starting point is 01:29:46 But I'm not going to get the history of the Catholics versus Protestants in Europe over five million children. It killed each other. The weight of the Protestant Reformation. So I mean, that applies to Christianity more than Islam. But going back to Patrick's point is that you want to grow your numbers and the grow the Christian population. I wanna help Christians grow because I think a world that has more Christians is better than a world that has more atheists.

Starting point is 01:30:12 But how can you have more Christians when you don't really believe in the Bible? We have the seeds of the destruction of Christianity right in this podcast because when you look at the way that Robert and Rishi describe the Bible, they describe it as a book of fables, and it can continue to evolve. I didn't say that.

Starting point is 01:30:31 This is going to cause apostasy. This is going to cause a decrease in faith. Like, why should I take Christianity seriously when it just evolves and it changes over time? I can't connect my practices and my beliefs as a Christian today with the historical Jesus. So why am I going to maintain myself as a Christian? And then also the whole theology,

Starting point is 01:30:54 which we haven't discussed at all today, like the monotheism is 80 to 90% of the world believes in monotheism in one God. And monotheism is a central, crucial, the most important part of Islam, the belief in one God without partners, he is not like anything. This is a very powerful belief,

Starting point is 01:31:15 that 80 to 90% of human beings profess in this day and age. And Islam represents that, and it's theology and emphasizes that in its theology. But if you have a trinity or you have a theology that is not really clear as Jesus God, is there a Godhead, is there this other system? Do we go by the Catholics or do we go by the Orthodox?

Starting point is 01:31:36 Do we go by the Protestants? You don't have a consistent theology. Sunnis and Shias, they all agree on the monotheism. God is one, he is not like anything, they agree on the Quran. Yeah, there can be some theological differences and nuances between different schools, but there's not the same kind of disparity

Starting point is 01:31:55 or variance between Christian sects and this idea of the Trinity, which frankly no one can understand. Like what does it mean to be three and one? Let me respond to that. Little more respond to that. My brother is mentioning divisions between Catholics and Protestants. If I go back, there are divisions among the followers, the disciples of Muhammad, the

Starting point is 01:32:18 Sahaba themselves, they killed each other. You know that the wife of Muhammad went and killed the followers of Ali and Mokeh atul Jammal, thousands died among the first disciples. This didn't happen between Peter and John by the way. And so if you go to Islam from the beginning, they fought each other and they had divisions from the beginning. You know that for example, the fight over the Quran was created or eternal. They fought over that. And actually, one time they had the whole caliphate going one way, the other time, they

Starting point is 01:32:51 prison, they killed people who believed that. So you're trying just to give a fake picture. There are divisions. There are killings among Muslims all through history, from the beginning, from the start, which didn't happen within Christianity by the way Peter and We didn't kill each other didn't kill each other Who killed who killed the Ottoman for example who killed the people in James were they at war were they fighting did they were not fighting? Okay, fight is to take an army against another one.

Starting point is 01:33:26 I should have to come arm me and killed people. If you don't have an army, you don't have political power. You lost your argument. You're trying to make a false analogy here. You lost your argument. This is not an analogy. You're not gonna win over any Christians by making and constructing these strong and arguments that

Starting point is 01:33:45 completely misrepresent but but if I may and I want to hear your your thoughts just a quick rebuttal here. My point earlier is I don't think they're trying to convert because because I think hear me out there. I'm sure they are. I'm sure they are but I don't think that's where they rely on the earlier point I made their strategy on outgrown Christians is to internally Yeah, oh kids from the beginning rather than converting. Oh, yeah, that's the way they're gonna be you know able to do what they want to do So if you want to respond go right here. Well, they are they are obviously converting Christians because Jake is here, but

Starting point is 01:34:24 The fact is one thousand Islam is not really that attractive a message And so there aren't many people who are converts most of the people like you're saying the reason why it's growing is because of polygamy and because the Women have many many more children than women in the West do but in any case the Points that I was making you are completely misrepresenting and running with your misunderstanding and claiming I said things I never said. The point that I was making was that the Old Testament and the New Testament, as I said before, are records of an evolving understanding among the people of God and that because of that, evolving understanding, the people of God, and that because of that evolving understanding,

Starting point is 01:35:08 they came to realize that these things had no applicability for all people for all time. The idea that the Old Testament is not applicable for Christians is in the New Testament itself. That's actually a large preoccupation of the New Testament that the Christians are free from the law. And so you bring up these Old Testament examples. You're the big difficulty you have is that nobody in the Christian world is thinking this is marching orders for today, whereas people read the Quran, unfortunately, they do think

Starting point is 01:35:40 that when it says kill them wherever you find them, when you meet the unbelievers, strike the necks and so on and so on, they do believe that these things are marching orders for today because the Quran does not have these different stages of development. But this doesn't mean in Christianity that just anything goes. In Catholicism and Orthodoxy, you have the apostolic succession and the authority of the bishops who can authoritatively interpret the scriptures and Set the doctrines and those doctrines have been consistent from the beginning. So it's all free Excuse me you're interrupting once again, and I never interrupt you. No, I'm asking a permission Just a second. Okay, where and in Protestantism, you also have the, at least,

Starting point is 01:36:30 ostensibly, a fidelity to the scriptures so that you can't just say anything goes and we're going to become LGBTQ now legitimately. Now, there are people who are doing this, and they are mostly in the Protestant purview because they don't have this authority that establishes various understandings of whether homosexuality is sinful or not and so on, and so they can reinterpret these things, and that is a big problem. Nobody is interested in hiding any problems, but when you set up these strong arguments and say, oh, Spencer said the Bible's fables and anything goes, you're just lying. I never heard that. Oh, you did.

Starting point is 01:37:09 I have a comment about statistics. Purissure center say Islam gains about as many convert as it loses in the US. So zero at the end. So even the 20,000, you can just cancel them. Another thing, alias Bayounis, he said that 75% of new Muslim converts, they leave Islam after that. So not many, 75% is a huge number, they go back because they find, usually they are fascinated with Middle Eastern, non-white religion. And yeah, it's fascinating. Our brother is wearing even the Moroccan Jehovah. He likes it.

Starting point is 01:37:47 Yeah, it's our, it's not Muslim, by the way, it's Burber. So you just think because they are fascinated with these things and they think that's Islam, when they start digging in, oh, I didn't agree to killing apostates. I didn't know that Muhammad ordered that. Well, I'll just annotate. If every of the states is scientifically cited. Okay, I'll just annotate. If every candidate is sent,

Starting point is 01:38:05 I'll just annotate. Okay, that Muslims stand for their principles. That's why he converted it. Yeah, he did. I'm glad he converted to Islam, so take him. Just, I want to say something, but Muslims converting to Islam, then you find out little by little things that you don't, it didn't agree at the beginning.

Starting point is 01:38:23 Every prophet comes with a warranty, except Islam doesn't come with a warranty. If you don't like it, your head is going to go. So that's why it's not an appealing religion. And people are starting rejecting it after they're defining these little details. I want to give them an opportunity to respond. And we can go to the next issue. Yeah, I'd like to respond because Robert brought up apostolic succession and claims that these doctrines have been held, you know, since the beginning of Jesus, Jesus proclaimed his message to the apostles and they passed it on to early church fathers and then all the way down the line.

Starting point is 01:38:58 And it's been this consistent message throughout. But on very core doctrines, which Daniel and I would actually like to spend more time on, on what he called the 95%, which is actually monotheism. Unfortunately, we believe that Christians, Trinitarian Christians, are representing a veiled form of polytheism. And you claim that this was the consistent message over time. Well, let's see what Justin Martyr, your own saint, says, and he's in the beginning of the second century who was born in the year 100 in his famous dialogue with Trifo, chapter 56. He says this, let's see if his theology is the same as yours,

Starting point is 01:39:35 Robert. I shall attempt to persuade you since you have understood the scriptures of the truth of what I say that there is and that there is said to be another God, and Lord, subject to the maker of all things, who is also called an angel, because he announces to men whatsoever the maker of all things, above whom there is no other God wishes to announce them. So Justin Martyr says that Jesus is a second God, is another God separate and distinct, and he is a lesser divinity. Now John Bear, who I'm sure you would know, is a famous Eastern Orthodox authority today.

Starting point is 01:40:15 He comments on this passage and he says this, as it is not God himself who thus appeared and spoke with man, the word of God who did all of these things for Justin, quote, another God and Lord besides the maker of all, who was also called his angel, as he brings messages from the maker of all, above whom there is no other God. Then he says about this passage,

Starting point is 01:40:38 the divinity of Jesus Christ, another God is no longer that of the Father himself, but subordinate to it a lesser divinity. Now that's just one example, Justin Martyr, who you would consider a saint, you may even pray to, as the Eastern Orthodox pray to dead saints, but the reality is that your theology, according to you, on the Trinity, is actually more correct than the person that you're praying to. And I can go through a whole more list of on key doctrines like the doctrine of the incarnation, the atonement and the Trinity itself, that the early church authorities like Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, and on and on up until the 4th century never preached

Starting point is 01:41:23 the doctrine of the Trinity, sir. So when you make the claim that your message has been consistent without, well, we see in the very beginnings on the fundamental point of who God is, you did not have the same doctrine. It took to get to the 4th century, and that's why Christianity, because at its very beginning was very comfortable with development. Oh, who is God? Is a man God? Is he God and man at the same time?

Starting point is 01:41:47 So if you can have those sorts of developments, of course you can have developments about how laws are applied and whether or not we should be celebrating LGBTQ and all of that. That's your history, sir. Not at all, actually no. The difference is that when it comes to LGBTQ,

Starting point is 01:42:06 it's very clear that homosexuality is immoral, and that this is the consistent teaching of all the Christian groups up until quite recently. And so the ones that have changed that have departed from the faith. And you cannot have a development that contradicts what went before. The developments happen harmoniously. At the beginning of the church, there was a great deal of difficulty in understanding exactly how it was that God had become men. And so

Starting point is 01:42:37 you have people trying to formulate it. And Justin Martyr tries to formulate it. And he does so erroneously. You have some assumption probably coming from Islam that the saints are infallible, and actually that's not the case. And so you want to quote me, fathers of the church from before Nicaea, all you want, the fact is that the Trinity was formulated at the Council of Nicaea in 325, and there isn't anything that was taught by the authorities in the church. Justin Martyr was a great saint, but he was not one who was formulating the doctrine and

Starting point is 01:43:14 charged with the responsibility to give us what the teaching of the Christian faith is. The Echimentechal Council had that authority, and they formulated it in this way. Now, does this mean that Justin Martyr is a heretic? No, because he comes before that. This is a no, because yeah, he was wrong. Yeah, absolutely. But when he said he's another god, he was wrong. There's not, there's only one god.

Starting point is 01:43:36 Right. We are actually monotheists. I know that the that Islam teaches that all the everybody else is a polyphism. I think you are. Well, we're not. And so Justin Martyr was wrong about that. And that's just doesn't is a polyphism. I think you are. Well, we're not. And so Justin Marta was wrong about that. I think it is.

Starting point is 01:43:47 And that's just doesn't pose a problem for Christianity. It does, because as you said, the doctrine of the Trinity doesn't come into the four century. So why are there people teaching it from the beginning? I'm talking about it. Justin Marta, I'll let you talk. You're interrupting me now. Listen, as I said, you just said that the doctrine of the Trinity

Starting point is 01:44:04 came about and was established at the Council of Nicaea in the 4th century in the year 325. We can talk about it another time because we would actually like to talk about theology. We want to talk about that 95%. So maybe we can do that another time. But the point is, and I challenge you, and I will be happy to debate this another time, that in the first 300 years of the church, you do not have a single church father, whether it be Justin

Starting point is 01:44:30 Martyr, Irenaeus. If you want to go to Tertullian, although some people think he's just a church writer, down through the line up until the 4th century, they did not teach the doctrine of the Trinity and I will defend that position any time, any place. Okay, because sure, there were plenty of church fathers, give me one. Who taught the Trinity, Ignatius of Antioch. There were plenty of church fathers who taught the Trinity

Starting point is 01:44:51 before Nicaea. It didn't spring out of nowhere. Basil the Great writes about it quite extensively. And so it's acting like it was, Basil was when some people made it up. Oh, it was there, it was bad. Well, he comes after the definition, but I'm saying that he explains.

Starting point is 01:45:06 So it's right. So you think that he's, he's, and he's one of the great saints and he's revered as also one who is, is explaining and forming like the transition into. Yeah, exactly. Then I'd like to transition to next door. Yeah, we're getting the leads here, but this is a lot of what I didn't want to do. That's why I said we went through that part at the beginning. We have a few different things to go through.

Starting point is 01:45:25 So, Dillamolveini, okay, transgender, buttlight, he comes out, he's going viral, he costs buttlight, you know, and Heiser Busch, I don't know, 29, 30 billion dollars. It's a lot of money he costs them, right? If Dillamolveini today has a change of heart, okay, go to sleep, cannot sleep all night, is praying, boom. He wants to find God. With the religion of Christianity or Muslim, welcome Dylan to convert to become a Muslim

Starting point is 01:45:54 or Christian. With Muslim, welcome Dylan Mulvaney. Yeah, if he accepts that he cannot be other than his biological sex, you know, that would be acceptable. Like when you can, when you become Muslim, it just requires saying the testification of faith. There is no God but God. There is no God but Allah.

Starting point is 01:46:13 And Muhammad is his final messenger. Then you become Muslim and that wipes away everything that you've done previously. You start with a completely clean slate. So everyone is welcome to become Muslim and we invite everyone. So even the Dillermovane, it could be a Muslim. On your end, Dillermovane lived a different kind of a life, wants to become a Christian changes life, what position does the Christian faith take?

Starting point is 01:46:37 Welcome. Yeah, anybody can repent and become a Christian. Actually Christianity is for sinners, people who admit their sins, and when a follow Jesus, so he can live a better life, and has his life changed, and that's what happened to me and happens to millions. Well, in case he's watching,

Starting point is 01:46:57 you have two choices, not the only one. This is the question I want to go. Guy, but I want to clarify that for him. I agree with Daniel. He needs to admit he's a guy. Great. And I'm sure if he's going to go through that, he'll do it. Next question for you.

Starting point is 01:47:11 Enemy. Who is the enemy of Christians and who is the enemy of Muslims? Who is the enemy of Christian faith? Well the classic answer is by St. Paul that we're not fighting against earthly powers but against spiritual powers. And ultimately, there's a spiritual aspect to everything that an individual experiences in his life. Most of the time, they're not aware of it.

Starting point is 01:47:35 But there are evil forces that try to lead people to do evil acts. Yeah, the enemy is anyone who threatens freedom, our freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and anyone who is trying to kill the ones who are different than his religion or his freedom, my way of life, my way of changing, choose today to be a Christian tomorrow, a Jew tomorrow, an atheist, anything that will threaten that my choices and will force me just to follow one way, I will consider it an enemy. Yeah, so that's an interesting answer. It seems like his religion is secularism and not the Christianity.

Starting point is 01:48:28 But when it comes to Islam, the biggest enemies defined in the religion is number one Satan because he tempts people and takes them off of the straight path. Then what's called dunya, which is like the worldly life, which is a delusion, the life to come, the afterlife. That is the true reality. Dunya. Dunya. He's that.

Starting point is 01:48:49 So we have to be focused on God and worshiping Him and being on the straight path. And then also our desires, like lust, that will cause us to commit sins. And then also our ego, which was called nefs, the ego, which tells us that we're greater than God, that we are more important and that we are better than others just because we are who we are. These are the four spiritual enemies of humankind. And then in terms of a worldly perspective, I would say liberal secularism is the biggest enemy to all traditional people, Muslim, Christian, and it is the world power today. Did you have anything to say, or are you good with that? No, I mean, I just be ready to be ready with Dan and so on.

Starting point is 01:49:28 Sounds good. So here's a question I got for you. Obviously, in America, everybody here lives somewhere in America, right? We all live in America. And there's a reason why we're here. We'd like to stay here, God willing, make our life work, make things work, and make it a place where we can raise our kids, have a family. Actually, I don't want to. but you want to move out of here.

Starting point is 01:49:47 So you're looking at other places. So there's pop places. Really? Yeah. Have you thought about some places? Morocco. Oh, so you want to go over here from? Yes.

Starting point is 01:49:55 I'll defend any reason for what's your reasoning. My wife is from Morocco, and I've been there many times. I've spent a lot of time there, and I enjoy it. And I haven't had any children yet. And I am actually afraid about the American society and the way it's going, especially over the past 10 years. And I don't want to raise my children here. And by the way, to be fair, a lot of parents

Starting point is 01:50:16 are also concerned about what's going on in America today. So good for you for actually wanting to go there. So here's one part that's confusing to me about three quarters of people of Muslims voted for Hillary Clinton when she ran for office about three quarters. It's not too long ago. They voted for that's Muslims, right? Today 74% of Muslims vote Democratic. Okay, when I look at values and principles, I'll give you top 10 issues for the 2024 ticket, for Democrats and Republicans. And I kind of want to get your thoughts here,

Starting point is 01:50:51 because this is an area where I feel like, you know, Muslims and Christians can actually be unified in certain areas. And if we do, it's going to be a formidable opponent to go up against. I'm sure they're not going to like this. So 10 most important issues for Democrats in 2024. Number one, climate change and environmental policy.

Starting point is 01:51:10 Number two, health care. Three, black lives matter, you know, police reform, things like that. Four, economic inequality. Five, voting rights. Six education, then gun control, foreign policy, national security, labor rights and jobs.

Starting point is 01:51:25 The left is more pro LGBTQ, that being taught in schools. It's things that they're open to the idea. What's wrong with that? Let them learn at an early age, etc. On the right, Republicans, economic policy and taxation. Number one, number two, conservative judiciary. So Supreme Court, having conservatives being conservative, Supreme Court being conservative, immigration, border security,

Starting point is 01:51:51 four-second amendment rights, national security and defense, socially cultural issues like abortion, religious freedom, opposition to certain aspects of the cultural worlds, wars, etc., critical race theory, LGBTQ, some of the focal points. Seven, election integrity, eight, state rights and federalism, nine, energy and environmental policy, and 10 being health care.

Starting point is 01:52:15 So, Dems, health care number two, Republicans 10. You know, when I talk to a lot of Muslims, they, the values and the way they raise their kids and their families. I don't see any of it that would match much of what the left is presenting. Why do so many Muslims vote Democratic? It happened after Bush, it happened after Bush basically pushed through this Patriot Act which criminalized so many Muslims just for their beliefs.

Starting point is 01:52:45 So many imams were deported, so many imams in America, American imams, just based on technicality, so many imams were put under investigation, put on watch list, no flylist, which was expanded under Obama actually. And so that kind of attack on the Muslim community by the Republicans really traumatized a lot of the Muslim community. And I for many years have been telling Muslims that look, we shouldn't just reflexively align with the progressive left because their tolerance and their acceptance of Muslims is only skin deep. When you actually look at the policies and the foreign policy of the Democrats, like Hillary of all people, like Obama,

Starting point is 01:53:31 they also have some very anti-Muslim policies, both domestically and internationally. And we have to look beyond the niceties, like Joe Biden will come on and say, in Shallah or Ramadan Mubarak and maybe the Republican won't do that. So just because he gives you that nicety, you're gonna like bow to that political party, that makes no sense. We should not align with one particular party. We should maintain our independence and others should cater to the Muslim community as a voting block

Starting point is 01:54:03 as opposed to us giving our allegiance to one side, reflexively, in the way that has been done in the past 10, 15 years. Got it, what would you say, Jake? No, I'll just reiterate the same things. So I can give them a chance. Robert, what are your thoughts on this one here? Because to me, I look at the history

Starting point is 01:54:21 and I have the conversations and I'm always, you know, surprised on what value from the left. I know there's a part of what's like well the right is more pro-Israel than the left is sometimes the right is too much defensive of that and the left is a little bit more open to the idea but what would you say well Israel does have something to do with it and it is also a lot actually what Daniel said some some of it was actually true, that the policies of the Bush administration and some of the things that still linger were so incredibly wrong-headed

Starting point is 01:54:52 and Muslims were quite resentful in some cases with immense justification. At the same time also, that I think this is the heart of the matter, the left is sold out to the idea of racism and is obsessed with the idea of racism. Islamic groups in the United States, particularly after 9-11, but before that also, like the Council on American Islamic Relations, Muslim Public Affairs Council and others, they very skillfully have portrayed any criticism of Islam, even opposition to jihad violence and sharia oppression of women and others as racism and bigotry. And Daniel actually has said in some of his debates that you criticize the left's agenda

Starting point is 01:55:41 and you get put on eight lists and de-platformed. Well, that's actually happened to me because I spoke the truth about Islam and the left's agenda and you get put on eight lists and de-platformed. Well, that's actually happened to me because I spoke the truth about Islam and the left does not want that out. They are completely sold out to the idea that this Islam, that Muslims are all of one race and that they're non-white and that consequently any opposition to Islam is just racism and white supremacy, and that consequently they have to stifle all criticism of Islam and all opposition to jihad and defame and destroy those who speak that criticism. And so the Islamic groups love that because Sharia actually criminalizes criticism of Islam and it carries the death penalty

Starting point is 01:56:26 But you're working in to your work is that's a lot of who you're your site calls for investigation of me like his site He is all to investigate me. Yeah, well, yeah, you do you do call for the death penalty for a path He has so articles on his site dedicated just to me that I need to be investigated because I don't agree with LG. May I respond? On his site, the thing about Robert Spencer, and I'm glad that he brought up this issue of racism, he is a racist, like his site anytime a Muslim anywhere

Starting point is 01:56:56 or any Middle Easterner, doesn't have to be a jihadi or doesn't have to be a Muslim even, commits a crime, he puts it on his site and says, oh, jihadi, Islamic terror, and he creates this fear mongering against immigrants. And imagine if you had a site dedicated to whenever a Jewish person committed a crime, you say, oh, Judaic violence, and you called your site Jew watch, or anytime a black person committed a crime, say, oh, black watch, this is black terror, this is black crime.'s what he does to muslims and he's had a long career of this he was involved in the same counter-terrorism uh... work with the republicans that he's now decrying and

Starting point is 01:57:35 saying oh yeah i disagree with that you are part of that effort you are part of those administration den you're trying to get them you're lying again. I did I did advise the FBI when I was invited I advise the FBI And military groups CIA a couple times Absolutely, yes, and that was mid-level people who invited me who were trying to change the point of view of the higher-ups And that's why I got in yeah I know that that's not like me as terrorists and I And I wrote, I have the, no, no, you're lying. And these three letter agencies on me because of the kinds of work that you're defaming me

Starting point is 01:58:12 and you're lying, and I need to have a change on your response. Yeah, there are four articles there. How many articles are at G-Hodwatch? About 80,000 going back 20 years. Most of them are four that mention you and three of them I didn't write. So I'm not entirely versed on everything they say.

Starting point is 01:58:29 Mainstream, if someone said you were not mainstream, you are a hate-monger and you approve, did you not approve of the Taliban? I approve of many Muslim governments. Do you approve of the Taliban? Yes or no, you'll approve of the Islamic governments. Okay, yes, I do. So I track G. H. I approve, excuse me.

Starting point is 01:58:51 Do you excuse me? The Russian Orthodox Church invading Ukraine? No, you don't. No, you didn't know the Russian Orthodox. Yeah, sure. Okay, your own church, great. The hierarchy, that's not my church. It's par for the Orthodox.

Starting point is 01:59:02 I am Orthodox. You have no understanding of Christianity. You've been asked the prophet. I am Orthodox. You have no understanding of Christianity. You've denounced the Bible. I am Greek Orthodox. Jesus, I guess it's a lie. You're lying again. You set up the straw man. But the point is that he's racist.

Starting point is 01:59:13 He's been cited by terrorists, Nandor's brevick, who is about a hundred people in Norway. He's on Robert Spencer. He said, read everything from Robert Spencer about Islam. He gets endorsed by the rest. He said, read everything from Robert Spencer about Islam. He gets endorsed by tourists. He keeps multiplying things. And so you have to allow for it some time. When you accept with a site called Jew watch, answer that.

Starting point is 01:59:35 It's not an analogy. If my sites were Muslim watch, then yeah, you would have a point. But it's not. It's G-Hod watch. And G-Hod is people killing innocent people Terrorist activities flying the planes into the buildings on 9-11 and so I track G-Hod activities And you were interrupting again and you were trying to make sure that I can't answer this defamation Because you know that it's lies and you want to make sure the truth doesn't get out But the fact is that the site tracks Gihad activity and it is a lie that if a Middle Eastern

Starting point is 02:00:11 or a Muslim person commits a crime, I put that on the site. I only put it on the site if there is justification for the behavior in Islamic texts and teachings. You think that Islam advocates for random killing of people? That's false. You think plenty of Islamic authorities random killing of people. That's false. You think lenty is Islam, a cathartis that I can use. Yeah, so there are plenty of us to fight that kind of thing. Versus the Bible that justifies that kind of thing. So anytime it's you, any time it's you,

Starting point is 02:00:33 commit me, you are interrupting yet again. There are plenty of Muslims who will just for Muslim clerics who justify the behavior and I give the quotes. People have to condemn how to excuse me. And as far as brevic goes, I knew this was gonna come up at some point. It is a total lie, it was a total lie from the beginning. And I was ready for it.

Starting point is 02:00:55 So I actually have what brevic actually said. The Muslims showed us that deadly shock attacks are the only tool we have at the moment, which will guarantee that our voice is heard. That's on page 1351 of his insane name. Read what he says about you. Yeah, read what he says about you. He quotes me and he quotes a lot of other people.

Starting point is 02:01:14 He says, I recommend everything. Robert Spencer is written on his phone. Do you say that or not? Yes, say that or not. Okay. Now, do you realize what you're saying here, what you're getting yourself into here? I just want to make me, I've got the same same you're talking over me because you ask me a question You ask me a question. No, you ask me a question. Brevick you have the same idea

Starting point is 02:01:33 I literally said the same And actually In my Criticized me as brevic actually criticized me because I would not call for violence Can you own pan for the audience? What's what? Yeah, brevick is this crazy man in Norway who killed 77 people at a youth camp. They were not Muslims, incidentally. They were just kids.

Starting point is 02:01:53 He was a nut. He was a lunatic. And he wrote this 1300-page manifesto, which is very suspect. Because for example, one of the reasons why I mentioned many times in it is because in it is the entirety of the script of a documentary I was in in 2002. And I asked the producer of the documentary, how did this lunatic get the transcript of the documentary? And he said, I don't know, not only was it never published, but it was never even made. We never made a transcript. And this guy who speaks broken English in half of his manifesto is suddenly perfectly transcribing

Starting point is 02:02:29 over 100 page documentary, in which I mentioned multiple times and speak multiple times. It's very suspect. And we don't know if it was the, who was, who was, I did, who was with him. I'm suggesting his manifesto was, yeah. You don't think you're wrong. Obviously the killing was real,

Starting point is 02:02:42 but I think he might have written part of it, but he certainly had help. It didn't, right're wrong. Obviously the killing was real, but I think he might have written part of it, but he certainly had help. Now anyway, the thing is, is that he said that the Muslims inspired him to do violence. He says that very clearly, I just gave you the quote. If being quoted by a bad person makes one evil, then the Quran is so that you're stromating my position. The Quran is quoted all the time by terrorists.

Starting point is 02:03:06 So if I am guilty because brev- If I am guilty because brev- quoted me, then the Quran is guilty because terrorists can't have the time. I'm gonna give Daniel a chance to respond and then we have seven- I haven't even been sentenced responding to everything else he said. Yeah, did you have a follow-up on what you wanted to say?

Starting point is 02:03:22 Yeah, so the thing is my point wasn't that, oh, he just cited Robert and that makes Robert bad. That wasn't my point. My point was that Robert shares the same ideology as that terrorist. The terrorists had the view that immigrants are a problem, especially, specifically Muslim immigrants. They cause a problem for Western society.

Starting point is 02:03:40 We need to stop immigration. This is a white supremacist, white replacement typo ideology, which Robert either shares, or he basically facilitates with his site, which takes any time a middle Eastern person commits a crime. And the best example, he claims that, oh, we check whether the person has a Muslim background

Starting point is 02:03:58 and has some kind of Muslim ideology. This is false. Just recently in June, there was a Syrian who stabbed children in France and Robert immediately posted up another Muslim jihadi attack on his Twitter, his site put up an article. Then it turns out that this guy is a Syrian who's a Christian. His name is Abdul Masih, which means slave of the Messiah. He's a Christian. And all the major news reports, BBC France 24 reported that this was a Christian actually. Robert doubled down and he said, no, no, no, this is a Muslim and his site continues to have an article up that says this Christian is actually a Muslim who

Starting point is 02:04:38 stabbed children in a playground. This shows that's a racist, this is a racist ideology that he's promoting because it's not based on ideology. He just sees a Middle Eastern name and says this is Islamic terror. And that's just one recent example. Many examples of this recently, like there's a stabbing in Brooklyn. I would spend two more minutes on this. Okay. Well then I have to have a chance to. You have a go-forwarded respond and we can move on to that. As far as the guy in June goes,

Starting point is 02:05:06 he said he was stabbing babies and he says, praise be to Jesus Christ. Now, this is a... Obviously, he's somebody who's trying to imitate whether he's a Muslim who is pretending to be a Christian. ISIS has called for Muslims to pretend to be Christians in the West and carry out terror attacks.

Starting point is 02:05:24 So that's the possibility. Also there were people who knew him, who stepped forward, and there were stories about it in the French press that said he was actually a Muslim. So I reported on these things. And I reported when he said he was a Christian, it's all there. It was a developing story and there were several articles that we had about it. But the idea that there was some deception, much less racism, that's just Daniel trying to demonize somebody who actually agrees. I agree with Daniel about it. That's what I like. That's the funny

Starting point is 02:05:55 thing about it. That's why you call for my investigation. I didn't. I'd like to go to the next phase. But I think you should be. Yeah. I agree. I'd like to go to the next phase. What do Christians and Muslims have in common? What do they have in common? Well, they would disagree, but monotheism is certainly one thing. Definitely not. And there is in Islam the appropriation of the biblical profits, such that it's kind of invasion of the body, Sinatius Christianity. I mentioned the movie before They take your personality and give you a different one And so you have Abraham you have Moses you have Jesus in the Quran, but they're completely different figures from what they are in the body Robert, what do Christians Muslims and Jews

Starting point is 02:06:39 having come in in America what values and Principles to Muslims Christians and Jews have in common America? Yeah, there's a general probably in some aspects of sexual morality, with the exception of polygamy and sex slavery of infantile women and some other things like that, wife beating, but otherwise, you have the idea of the value of marriage. That's something certainly that they have in common. Well, would you say what do Christian Jews and they have in common. What would you say? What do Christian Jews and Muslims have in common? Values and principles in America.

Starting point is 02:07:09 Yeah, we have shared values with actual traditional Christians. When it comes to reform Christians, they're basically like Resah-Aslah and Christian versions of Resah-Aslah. Can you even call them Christians? With traditional Christians that actually care about the Bible and just don't call it a book of fables, we have values in marriage, preserving marriage, preserving chastity, modesty, opposing sexual immorality,

Starting point is 02:07:38 preserving gender, the concept of gender is so important. That's a shared value with traditional Christians and traditional Muslims. The importance of the family, respecting parents, respecting, you know, raising children the right way, raising children to respect these values of morality, communities coming together. These are all shared values, their traditional values.

Starting point is 02:07:58 Do you think? Belief in God, belief in God, and caring about God. Do you think society, or, or, you know, again, rip this apart as much as you want, brother Rashid, you can, you know, what I'm about to say here right now, you can come in and fully disagree what I'm saying. Do you think there is a, you know, how we always talk, but who are the people of power, like the real people of power?

Starting point is 02:08:21 I'm not talking about like, you know, millionaires and billionaires are presidents. I'm talking people that are really the people of power. I'm not talking about like, you know, millionaires and billionaires are presidents. I'm talking people that are really the people of power, right? Do you think they would like to keep Christians, Muslims, and Jews, specifically Christians and Muslims divided, pinned against each other with the fears of them potentially being united or no. That's a religious division that there will never be an element of a unification amongst Christians and Muslims against a common enemy. I mean, as somebody who studied Islam, Islam puts Christians and Jews as the first enemies

Starting point is 02:09:03 from the first, from the first from it started Muhammad Muhammad's enemies they were Jews and Christians he never mentioned Buddhist or Hindus or any other religion He mentioned basically Christians and Jews so that Muslims inherited that Inmity from Muhammad until today If you ask them who is the enemy, there will be the West. If you go to Morocco, for example, do a statistics, it will be the West, especially America and Israel, because they represent Christians and Jews. So when the Quran says, do not take Jews and Christians

Starting point is 02:09:38 as friends, do you think what happened to Jews and Christians through history was just random or was based on doctrine? When the Quran says like you have to fight the Christians in Jews until they submit and they give the Jews here, do you think that enmity started back then in the seventh century or just somebody caused it today? The enmity is inherited in the text in the Omar al-Hattab. He kicked the Jews and Christians from the Arabic peninsula. And Muhammad said, I will kick out Christians and Jews until only Muslims are kept in the Arabic peninsula.

Starting point is 02:10:19 When he was dying in his dead bed, he said, cursed be on Jews and Christians because they took the grace of their prophets as shrines. So all these things are embedded in Islam. Actually my book, the ideology behind Islamic terrorism, the first chapter is in the beginning it was hatred. So the beginning, the root of terrorism is hating who are not Muslims, especially Jews and Christians. There is a huge hatred. Actually in the Sunnah,

Starting point is 02:10:51 hating the non-Muslims is a must, is a part of fate. Walat Wal-Bara, they have a doctrine called the WalatWalbada, you have to take only believers as your close friends and close allies, and you have to hate this believers. So this is inherited. If somebody want to follow Islam by the letter, he should take Christians and Jews as enemies. I'll answer your question. The powers that be do they want to divide Christians and Muslims. Yes, absolutely. The powers that

Starting point is 02:11:25 be started this war on terror and they started this attack on all religion and tradition. They started with Muslims and they created this counter extremism policy. If you have certain beliefs as a Muslim, you believe that we should follow the Quran as it was revealed, follow the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, then you are an extremist and we have the right to surveil you and detain you, etc. Now they've moved that from Muslims to Christians. Now Christians are coming under fire. All the tactics that were used against Muslims are now being used against Christians. Christians are being watched by the FBI.

Starting point is 02:12:02 You go to protests like Dreck Queen Story Hour at the Public Library or at the School Board. You're on a watch list by the FBI. So these were tactics that are used by Muslims. Now they're being used against traditional Christians. And Robert Spencer was a part of that whole apparatus. So yes, the powers that we do want to divide Muslims and Christians because that way

Starting point is 02:12:24 they can have an easier time. Most people are attracted to traditional religion. Most people hate feminism. Most people hate LGBT. Most people hate these new isms, these ideologies, and they wanna stick to their traditions and values. How do the powers that be want to conquer those religions and values divide and conquer?

Starting point is 02:12:44 So that definitely, I'm on the same page with you on that. Yeah, I only ask the question because, you know, when I started our own insurance company, this is the thing I can use, is because we attracted people from all walks of life. It didn't matter who was. Black, Hispanics, Asians, Christians, St.ologist, atheists, Catholics, Hispanics, Catholics. And we figured out the way to find things that we had in common. We have disagreements. Now, I just had a very nice friendly debate

Starting point is 02:13:14 with one of our top guys who's a Muslim. And we had a religious debate, we had a political debate, but then we found a bunch of things we agree with, right? What they valued, what we value. I don't think, you know, eventually, and I know I'm gonna use this analogy because we talked about the mob earlier and you were talking about what happens

Starting point is 02:13:34 when you leave the mob and you're talking about what happens when you leave the Muslim faith. Eventually in New York, the five mob families came together and they unified together, right? And I'm not using that analogy to say the similar things here, but I wonder what would happen if we realized that what they're trying to do to our kids, none of us agree with. You know, none of us agree with. You know, the whole saying goes that somebody can curse you out and you're like, yeah, whatever. You're a proper, you're such a affin' this. Okay, cool.

Starting point is 02:14:07 Hey, you know, you're such a affin' this, you're a converse. All right, cool. Hey, let me tell you, you know, you're a loser. Cool. All right. Hey, I'm gonna turn your kids into teaching them about LGBTQ at five years old.

Starting point is 02:14:18 I'm sorry. What did you say? I'm gonna do that. In Armenia, it's like you go after the mother. No, no, we're not doing that. You go after Prophet Muhammad. Hey, what are you talking about? What are you doing?

Starting point is 02:14:30 This is not okay with us. I think that's happening today. And I don't know if it's there right now, but I would be very interested in finding ways to get more and more of these communities together to talk. We're going to have differences. We're gonna have differences. We're gonna have philosophical differences when it comes on to religion and theology and this

Starting point is 02:14:50 and that, of course. And by the way, I'm not sitting here saying I agree with some of the values and principles that your church offers or your faith offers. I can't live like that, but I respect the fact that you respect it and you're devoted to it. It doesn't mean it's something I want to do, you know, but at the same time, you're talking family, you're talking kids, you're talking certain things that we could agree on, traditional

Starting point is 02:15:17 values that you're talking about. I can get behind that. Somebody may watch us and they're Muslim, they're looking at Robert and Robert's obviously the biggest antagonist on this Show today because Naturally you've written the most things that's upset the most from the Muslim side so you're gonna be a target And you've taken it like you know, you've been a good sport about it You know, you've sat here and you've heard and you've given your position. Jace come at you very prepared I think Jake has done a phenomenal job with his arguments that he's had. Daniel's been very respectful, brother-re-sheet. You have been from your

Starting point is 02:15:49 standpoint extremely passionate about what you've done and to be quite frank, your testimony is probably the most powerful one out of all of ours at this table. Thank you. Because you've gone through it. You went through it. You've seen the pain. And at the end, though, the audience, I hope, gets to see again that we can sit down, have a conversation, be respectful. Everybody made their points. There was no limitations on what one could say. And I think the real bigger enemy is not going to like us finding ways to unify. I just don't think they are. And the role I'm playing here is an element of amount curiosity and long-term finding ways to, you know, fastest way to eliminate an enemy is to

Starting point is 02:16:32 turn them into an ally. I'm trying to find ways if we can have some kind of a relationship and unify folks from different sites and see where this can go. So having said that, we are at the end of the podcast, at the end of the discussion that we had. Appreciate everybody's sportsmanship and being respectful to one another. For the most part, everybody was respectful. Let's make sure we put the links below to everyone's books

Starting point is 02:16:53 or everybody knows, as well as if you do have a YouTube channel, if you'd like to promote it so people know to come and find you as well. You do have one if you don't mind sharing yours, everybody if you can do that, and we'll wrap it up. Yeah, my YouTube channel is the Muslim metaphysician. So if you just typed it in on YouTube or any social media platform, Twitter and whatever else, you should be able to find it there. I mostly discuss theology with Christians and atheists. So that's what I focus on and

Starting point is 02:17:22 you can find it there. Daniel. Yeah, I have the Muslim Skeptic channel and also MuslimSkeptic.com where we really debate a lot of these issues that are brought up, we didn't get a chance to get into detail on some of these issues like minor marriage, go on quote, wife beating, et cetera. So I really analyze these topics, I explain them in a way that audiences can understand and really appreciate the Muslim perspective, the Islamic perspective. So yeah, and I appreciate you, Patrick,

Starting point is 02:17:48 for doing this and having this kind of conversation, I think it's really valuable and I appreciate you for that. Yeah, I just, I'd like to add that too, because I didn't get a chance to say that I think that you've been very fair and we appreciate that. Also, one more plug that I can make, sorry, for Muhammad hijab,

Starting point is 02:18:04 because Muhammad hijab, you talk to him and Eddie, and they facilitated this. I really hope that you have Muhammad hijab on here, because he's really a Muslim, amazing Muslim public intellectual, and you'd be, you know, you have a great conversation in shahla. I would love to have a very influential gentleman like MobityJab, a one from the Jewish community and one from the Christian community.

Starting point is 02:18:30 For all of us to have a conversation to get, I realized two hours is not enough, two and a half hours not enough, I think that may be three, four hours, but we'll figure something out. I know you have a channel, I know you're all over the place as well. Yeah, I actually am a little bit lagging in terms of the videos. I have a YouTube channel, G-Hod Watch video.

Starting point is 02:18:50 And every Wednesday evening, whenever we can do it, David Wooden and I do a show this week in G-Hod, covering the latest news. But unfortunately, I don't have a whole lot else there. I've been focusing on writing books, have the Critical Quran, and book The Empire of God, How the Byzantine Saved Civilization, a history of the Roman Empire

Starting point is 02:19:10 and the Byzantine period that's coming in November. I'm also writing a new biography of Muhammad, Muhammad a critical biography evaluating the historical value of the various texts. I'm about halfway done with that. That'll be out next year. Fantastic, thank you, brother Rashid. Yeah, I have a website called,

Starting point is 02:19:26 www.brother Rashid.com, and also a YouTube channel called www.brother Rashid.tv, and also have Twitter account. You can find me, www.brother Rashid, Facebook page, have two million followers on Facebook page, so you can find me there. And also, my book is on Amazon if you wanna buy it. The ideology behind Islamic terrorism, it's there. And also, my book is on Amazon if you want to buy it. The ideology behind Islamic terrorism is there.

Starting point is 02:19:48 What a weird book. Yes, this is a fantastic book. Thank you so much, Patrick, for doing this. Thank you very much. Any time, guys, thank you again for being respectful and being a sport about it. This was fantastic. Hopefully in the future we'll do many more of these.

Starting point is 02:20:00 Again, gang, for those of you that watched it, I hope you appreciate this conversation. As much as I did, have a wonderful weekend, and we'll do this again next week. Take care, everybody. Bye-bye, bye-bye. Yn yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw you

PBD Podcast - Religious Roundtable | PBD Podcast | Ep. 306

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