PBD Podcast - Terrell Owens | PBD Podcast | Ep. 323

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Starting point is 00:01:07 Yeah, why would you plan on galiah when we got bett David? Value came in, giving values, contagious world, I want your panors, we can't no value to hate it. I'd be running home, you look what I've become. Okay, so there's an epidemic going on in the NFL with fans that we got to figure this thing out right now, correct it before it's too late. It's not Terrell Owens. It's Terrell Owens.

Starting point is 00:01:32 Say it Terrell. Terrell, Terrell, like Terrell. Terrell Owens is the proper pronunciation, not Terrell. And by the way, I'm speaking to myself because I called him Terrell before I walked. Now let me properly introduce our guest today. Although many of you, if you follow sports, if you love sports, you definitely know who this man is. He's a Hall of Famer.

Starting point is 00:01:51 I was glad when it happened. Although a lot of people would say was well overdue. But third all time, I think in yards, touchdowns, eight in regular season receptions, 1078, 15,000, 934 yards, 150 touchdowns, 153. And the only player ever to catch a touchdown with every single NFL team, this is according to ESPN,

Starting point is 00:02:12 was inducted into the Hall of Fame in 2018. And on top of that, a recently on my birthday was reported that a car hit him and was absolutely damaged. I'm sorry, I'm reading the story the other way, Ron. You know, Terrell hit the car. Yeah, and Terrell hit the car. The car is suing.

Starting point is 00:02:31 Yeah, it's a car is suing. The car is a car. It's injured. It's got a lawyer. The car is a lawyer. It is great to have you on the podcast, man. Appreciate it. Thank you guys for having me.

Starting point is 00:02:39 Yeah, it's very good to have you on the podcast. It's interesting. You know, as a fan, we're sitting here talking Tom says you were at the last game, right? You were at Jerry Rice's last game. Yeah, my wife is a nine or faithful man, nine or faithful. And if they didn't want you to break the record, why did they keep throwing it to you? That's the one where you get 20 catches. I think Jerry's record was what 16 and, you it was against it was against a bear It's against the bears. It was a talk of town because it was like that shut them out. Yeah

Starting point is 00:03:11 But but anyway, so everybody has a terrible story of Watching you, you know, I got a couple other questions. I want to get into obviously, you know The Stephen A Smith Smith stuff that we got to get into again to that in a minute We'll talk about career. We'll talk about football, we'll talk about today, we'll talk about fastest. We'll talk about a few different things. But a very open-ended question for you, as a guy that maybe is a fan of the game. Of course, I saw you with Dion the other day. We have to talk about Dion as well. Do you like today's game more than the game you used to play in or the game even before you.

Starting point is 00:03:45 Which game do you like more? From what I watch, again, the game is a little bit less physical. Obviously, I think that's why you have an inflation of receiver yards and catches. Obviously, they've kind of minimized that kind of like the defense of aggressiveness of the defense, but I'm a basketball fan at heart. So I don't really watch a lot of football and it's probably surprising to a lot of people

Starting point is 00:04:12 that ask me the same question that you're asking me. When I grew up in Alabama, I was raised by my grandma and my mama. I wasn't really into sports like that. I played a lot of sports, but I didn't ever think that I would play at the professional level or reach the level that I did. So I only watched football occasionally now with the guys that were playing while I was playing and some of the guys that I've run across O'Probe over the last four or five

Starting point is 00:04:43 years that have entered into the league, like DK Matt Keph, for example. Still talked to Julio Jones, he just got acquired, just got back in the NFL and he's playing with the Philadelphia Eagles, guys that I've worked out with over the last few years or so. So that's kind of like my involvement. And then obviously with social media, I stay kind of like a breast of what's going on around the league. I mean, I have a number of friends that are either cowboy fans, they're Eagle fans, or they're San Francisco 49ers fans. As a matter of fact, last night I had two of those guys on the phone.

Starting point is 00:05:21 They faced time me last night, my 49er fan and a guy that's an Eagles fan. And for the last three to four weeks, they've been calling me kind of asking me like, my take on who's going to win, why are they going to win, things of that nature. So my 49er fan, he's having a tough time right now because he, a friend, he's got said they've lost three in a row. And I kind of gave them, gave him a heads up. And I'll tell him, I look, I'm not really invested in it because I see it from a different perspective than fans.

Starting point is 00:05:49 So I honestly, I give my unassessment as to what I think is going to happen in the game. You know, why are they going to win or why they may lose. And so I've been pretty much, I'm batting a thousand right now. And my, my Eagles guy, he's on cloud nine right now. Eight and one, they just had a very good, good cop was played good but had a very good game. What is their record? Five and three or five.

Starting point is 00:06:11 No, no, the Eagles. Eight and one. Eight and one. Yeah. Number 81 here. Ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, Oh, there you go. That's a good one. That's a good one. Eight and one. So by the way, what do you think about this whole conversation? A lot of guys that post Brady, they're like kind of want to get connected with the next Brady. What do you think about this conversation that party has what it takes?

Starting point is 00:06:33 You know, underdog, you know, wasn't drafted that high. Nobody really banked on this guy. His parents even brought him there, not thinking he's going to play. It's got a very good underdog story. Do you think that is a little bit too much hype or do you think he has the goodies, he shows the signs that he can be a player like that? I mean, I think when you look at what he did last year, taking over and obviously,

Starting point is 00:06:54 winning a lot of games and got him to the Super Bowl and then obviously, unfortunately, for him, he got hurt in the Super Bowl, so we don't know what would have happened, but based on what we saw leading up to that I mean, they very well could have won the Super Bowl But then you start this season out you're starting out hot and then the last three games You know, you kind of feel like okay, maybe defenses are catching on to him

Starting point is 00:07:20 They've done a lot of film study. They're kind of choosing to see what his strengths and weaknesses are and defense maybe defensive coordinates, maybe we're trying to expose those or exploit those. I mean, so right now, I think if you look at what he's done, he's definitely capable of planning this league.

Starting point is 00:07:40 I think when you think about the Tom Brady, you start to mention guys like Tom Brady, what makes those guys great is the consistency of their play. And I think that's what's in question right now, especially within the last three games. You ever caught Brady's passes, like even just like Pro Bowl and any abs. You and Brady ever caught a pass.

Starting point is 00:07:59 Like have you? The actual idea, he was, I was in Los Angeles, I can't remember what year it was. It might have been around 20, maybe 14 to 15 maybe. And he was working out with one of his trainers, Tom House at USC. And we ran a few routes and stuff out there with him and some other receivers. In a running route like that, can you get a feel and say damn, that was okay. So this is why he is always,

Starting point is 00:08:28 or is it so much more about discipline, consistency, mindset that you don't sense the difference between him or Roe Moore, Garcia or Young or McNab, you're like no, I definitely felt the difference with Brady. Well, you can know, you know the difference between a catchable ball and like a guy that throws with finesse, knows when to throw it with a little little zip little velocity on it. I would tend to more give you a better assessment and game and a game setting or practice setting because now

Starting point is 00:09:00 he has to figure out understand my run gate, how I come in and how I transition in and out of my routes, my speed, all those things. In a practice setting, in a competitive setting, that's when you kind of feel, get a feel for what a quarterback can and cannot do. But when it comes to game time situation, when you look at, and I was just mentioning this to the guys too last night,

Starting point is 00:09:23 when you think about the game that, the Super Bowl that they want coming back from what 25 down against Atlanta. Atlanta? Atlanta, Fouls 183. Yeah, something like that. When you think about that game, the margin of error is really, really small, especially being down that many points.

Starting point is 00:09:41 So you have to understand what a guy like that, you have to be very cerebral to understand the matchups. You have to know when and where to throw the ball with, again, ball placement. And then you have to pick your matchups. Obviously the plays have to be called, but you have to execute those plays. And for Tom, like I said, being down that many points, you have to maximize every opportunity to get back into the ball game. And then there's another thing to actually win it.

Starting point is 00:10:10 So when you think about what he did in that game, it's remarkable because you have to look at, I can't remember, know the receivers that were on the team at that time, but you have to understand like every down and distance, every play matters. That exactly. And you gotta understand the matchups

Starting point is 00:10:26 that are on the field. When you think about the Grand Cowskis, I think maybe Eldom was there. You have to pick your battles and understand on this down and distance, like who's over here, who's over there. You have to manipulate the defense, like it's where this cover one, cover two.

Starting point is 00:10:41 You have to manipulate the defense with your eyes and your feet. And he was able to do that when you think about just the accuracy and just the velocity and where he puts the ball. That's a lot. Let me ask you, as a receiver, I don't know what it is to be one of the greatest receivers in some arguments, the greatest receiver all the time, right?

Starting point is 00:11:02 Do you know if you can see the quarterback throwing the ball, do you know just by catching and the way the ball comes who it is, like what the guys you played? Could you tell? That's a Garcia pass. That's a young pass. No.

Starting point is 00:11:14 You can't do that. Well, from a right-handed quarterback and a left-handed quarterback, yes, that was something that I had to get adjusted to, because for so many years, I've always called right handed quarter, but then when I got with the 49ers, I had left hand, I had the weight of my ball is spinning.

Starting point is 00:11:31 Yeah, I had Steve Young and then I think I may have dropped the ball a couple of times when it came to him, like it just hits the hands differently. It's a different rotation on the ball. So those are things you have to get adjusted. You're the only one to say that about Steve Young. Everybody, there's a different rotation on the ball. So those are things you have to get adjusted. You're the only one to say that about Steve Young. Everybody, there's a lot of receivers that really respected playing with him. Oh, I didn't see you over here. My bad.

Starting point is 00:11:51 Hey Tom. I was going on. Tom struck the one. He's getting back at me. There was a lot of receivers that said when they had to learn to play Steve Young, they said, you could trust him because the ball is going to be there and get good finance, good placement, everything you're talking about. But the ball spun different. Yeah, it is. Especially if it was a little wet. And they said that that was that took getting used to.

Starting point is 00:12:12 Well, yeah, I mean, that's as a receiver, like I said, it wasn't something that I thought about. But then I knew when I ran the route and the ball hit my hands, I knew something was different. And obviously when you think about the West Coast offense, everything is based on time and precision. That's why I'm so fortunate, and I'm grateful to have been number one drafted to the Niners, but then I got a chance to watch another great athlete of all time in Jerry Rice,

Starting point is 00:12:43 who played the position that, again, like I said, I ended up kind of shattering some of his records, but I got a chance to watch him. And so I couldn't have been in a better situation coming from a small school, UT Chattinguga, and then obviously, like I said, I was drafted to a team. Obviously, I had future Hall of famers in that room. You think about it, obviously Jerry Rice and then obviously Steve Young. Again, these two honestly kind of helped unfold who I was as a receiver. And unfortunately, I didn't get to play the entirety or the majority of my career, which

Starting point is 00:13:21 Steve Young, obviously due to the concussions, but I only got to play at three years with Steve Young. And then, obviously, Jeff Garcia came in and then I played with a plethora of quarterbacks. I mean, Elvis Gerbach, I mean, Tim Rite, there are so many quarterbacks that I played with, but who's to... I don't know what I could have accomplished had I had Steve Yone for eight years. I was just going to ask you, who was out of all the court of

Starting point is 00:13:52 backs, game time, passing everything. Who do you think was the best one to throw to you? Me time. I can question. I, people I asked me this and they think I'm being funny, but I love Ryan Fitzpatrick. Wow. I do. And I play with a number of quarterbacks. But if you think about, if but I love Ryan Fitzpatrick. Wow. I do. And I played with a number of quarterbacks.

Starting point is 00:14:06 But if you think about Ryan Fitzpatrick's career, interesting. He was never, it was never with a team for a long period of time where he was the main state of the starting. He always came in, he filled in, but he played very, very well. And so obviously, like I said, there's a number of quarterbacks. I obviously that I played with, that obviously I could give a nod to. But again, I look at later in my career, especially in Buffalo,

Starting point is 00:14:31 because that was like my first stint with him. And Trent Edwards was the quarterback at that time. And so they brought me in, and they was like, okay, we need you to come in and kind of help groom this guy. And so obviously for him, some injuries came into play. He had his main guys that he was strong to.

Starting point is 00:14:51 And in his heart, like I said, I was, that was later on in my career, but I knew I could still play the game, but he had somewhat of a comfort level with the guys that were already there. Lee Evans, Josh, I think Josh Reed, not, it was Josh Reed, I don't know. Some other receivers that were there that he was comfortable with. He Evans, Josh, I think Josh Reed, it's not, it was a Josh Reed, I don't know.

Starting point is 00:15:05 Some other receivers that were there that he was comfortable with. And so I didn't really get a chance to really evolve and really play like I wanted to play until Ryan Fitzpatrick took over at quarterback. And I started to just play like everybody expected me. He's a dog, though. He's a, if it's Patrick is a, yeah, absolutely. Fisty guy, rally players from obviously from a fans perspective that look like players liked playing with them I don't know what he was like in

Starting point is 00:15:31 the locker room but there was something attractive about his personality no no he's a he's a ball he's a gamer and again he's very very tough and again obviously smart guy what he went to Harvard he went to Harvard economic economic student at Harvard, yes. Yeah, the hysterical interviews afterwards. Yeah, yeah, I mean, playing with the media, playing with the beard and the glasses, just looking at him.

Starting point is 00:15:52 I didn't get that right. Is that right, sir? I didn't get that right, but I got a chance to watch it from afar. Got it. Obviously, yeah, but he's a good guy, like, again, over the years, like I said, people have asked me that question. But I think that's no knock at any of the other quarterbacks

Starting point is 00:16:07 that I played with. And officer like said, I mean, Steve Young, Hall of Fame quarterback, but I don't only got, I don't got to play three years, but it just think of, when you look at Jerry Rice and his career and the numbers that he had masked, he didn't have a drop off at the quarterback position because he went from Joe Montana, Hall of Fame quarterback

Starting point is 00:16:25 to Steve Young, Hall of Fame quarterback. So what would have happened if you had that? I mean, look at, I put this in, I guess I put it in perspective because you look at the things that I did with the number of quarterbacks. Again, if you want to compare the ones, you know, compare those quarterbacks to the Hall of Fame quarterbacks that Jerry played with, it's kind of like, it's apples and oranges. So you think about what I did with the ones that I played with, who's to say, what, I mean, I think everybody knows

Starting point is 00:16:56 what would've probably happened, man. I probably have maybe five, I mean, I would probably say, maybe, maybe three to five thousand more yards. Who knows? You think you would have cracked 20 if you were with Joe. And so, meaning, exact number of seasons,

Starting point is 00:17:13 Jerry had with Joe and Young. Would you have more yards? I would be, I would have definitely threatened. Can you pull up Jerry Rice stats against Terrell? I'm actually curious now myself because, you know, Jerry, can you pull that up? Cause I'm right at like 16,000. I'm right.

Starting point is 00:17:33 Yeah, you're 5,5934. And Jerry was what? He's like 20,000? Holy shit, he's at 22,895. 22,895. Putch down to 197. That would have been, I mean, you only needed 44 more. Right, that's it. Yeah, 15, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, know, like, Carmelon had the advantage of having Stockton, right? So what would have happened if somebody else had 15, 18 years of a Stockton as a point garden?

Starting point is 00:18:09 That's what you're saying, right? Is the story true about the one story I remember, the J.J. Stokes come out of UCLA, was Stoke 95. Yeah, I used to watch him at UCLA. He meant, there's a guy from USC received a Johnny Morton. I think he went to the lines if I'm not mistaken, right? Yeah, and he was playing with Herman Moore and Mitchell. So was it Scott Mitchell? The left handed. Scott Mitchell. Yeah. You're quarterback. But is there a story where you

Starting point is 00:18:33 guys are climbing up this hill that Jerry would run and you and JJ are running up with him and you guys beat him in the first mile or whatever it is and all of us and he comes back he says, you know, hey, young guys are some, this is a story, a myth I've heard. What really happened that? I've never run the heel with Jerry. You've never run the heel with Jerry. Not with Jerry. Okay, I have not.

Starting point is 00:18:51 But we've heard this story and you know, the story's been told, was it, so you were not part of that story when JJ Stokes running up? No, I was not. Have you ever heard this story, or others tell you? I think I may have, but yeah, I'm not familiar.

Starting point is 00:19:04 When they tell this story, have you heard it with your name being included in it? Or no. No, I have not have you ever heard this story what others tell you I may have but yeah I'm not familiar when they tell the story have you heard it with your name being included in it or no no I have not you've not heard so it's a story with JJ being in this yeah, it might have been JJ But I I wasn't yeah, I never ran how disciplined was his training I guess that's the question I want to ask very meticulous. I mean I mean even from his training the way he Put on his uniform, just the way he went about just being the receiver that he became. And he was. The difference with me and Jerry, Jerry, he grew up as a, I guess, as a young kid, wanting to be a football player. He wanted to be a receiver. And then eventually, ultimately, he wanted to be a football player. He wanted to be a receiver. And then eventually ultimately,

Starting point is 00:19:45 he wanted to be the greatest receiver of all time. And he had a dad, he had somebody obviously to help him and push him to be that. I didn't grow up wanting to be a professional football player and never thought I would be in a million years. I got to Chattanooga on the heels of another receiver that they were recruiting at high school. And so I got there at UT Chattanooga on the heels of another receiver that they were recruiting in high school. And so I got there at UT Chattanooga,

Starting point is 00:20:08 just kind of like somewhat of on a packaged deal. And again, I was very competitive. I played a plate of number sports in high school. I played baseball, basketball, a rand track. And then like I said, getting to UT Chattenuga, again, I didn't really play much of my freshman year. I didn't really play to like late in the season. And then I think my sophomore year

Starting point is 00:20:33 is kinda like my breakout year. The coach that I had at the time, Buddy Nix, he didn't really believe in playing freshmen unless you were like coming out out of high school in the shoe like an all-american or you are 4 or 5, you know, 4 or 5 star athlete. And so I was definitely not that coming out of high school. And so I just kind of just kept working, just trying to find my way. And then my sophomore year I had somewhat of a breakout year. My, I think late in the season I had four touchdowns against the defending national champions, Marshall Thurne, Thundering Hurd at that time that was in our conference. And I scored off four touchdowns and we won the game 33 to 31.

Starting point is 00:21:13 That was sort of like the stepping stone of kind of like me, you know, thrusting him to, you know, on the scene of becoming a receiver. So you, and you said, you said that said that your mother and your grandmother raised you. So how much of a role were they more like, okay, like they knew you were athletic, were they pushing you to, was it you just on your own in school

Starting point is 00:21:36 because like you were saying this guy had a father, your father wasn't in the picture too? No. So you had to find that on your own. And I was realized like, yo, I'm nasty. No, I was a nasty in high school. I was just being a kid, just playing sports. And that was just one of the things

Starting point is 00:21:53 and it was just kind of like one thing after another. I mean, I had enough skill. I guess talent, like I said, I tried out for the basketball team. I made it, you know what I mean? When I was for baseball, I made it, you know what I mean? But I was never, I wasn't a star, you know what I mean. I was played football, I played JV,

Starting point is 00:22:08 and then eventually my junior year ended up going to varsity. There are guys that were like in my freshman sophomore year, they were talented enough to play at the varsity level. And I saw those guys, I witnessed those guys. I was never one of those guys. And so when you look at the entirety of my career and how it started and where I came from, for me, I still go back and I'm like,

Starting point is 00:22:32 man, how did this happen? But I always talk about, you know, when I ultimately got inducted into the Hall of Fame, but prior to that, I got nominated in 2016, and I think about, I'm like, man, how did I get here? And I always thought about, like, how did this all happen? And then I just kind of reflected back on everything and I had gone through who had helped me along the way.

Starting point is 00:22:55 And then just really just internally, like, there was something about me that was different than everybody else. And so I kind of just like, man, I sat back in my condo after doing an interview, after being nominated in 2016. And I'm like, man, how did I get here? And I came up with these 3Ds, which was Desire, Dedication, and Discipline.

Starting point is 00:23:16 I had the desire to play whatever it may have been. But when you think about guys that are considered great. Slay the holidays with Real Canadian Superstores PC Holiday Insiders Report. Serve Appies under $16, like PC, Pellenta Fries, PC, Cranberry, Breeb pastry bites, and PC, Eggplant, Parmesan, Espoir Le Attelle. Only at your Super Holiday Store. This episode is brought to you by Intel. Intel V Pro is the business computing foundation,

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Starting point is 00:24:13 There has to be some sort of dedication. But what really separates the great from the good is discipline. And I was I was fortunate enough and I had enough where we thought to think about like how how did I get here? When I started to think about and then throughout the course of my career, people start saying, man, you're the Michael Jordan of football. What Michael Jordan of football? Who would have ever thought that I never would have thought that me. And I say this because I'm like, man, what phase did they say that? How early?

Starting point is 00:24:44 This was, I mean, it's when I was pretty much at the height of my career. I guess it was I'm like, man. At what phase did they say that? How early? This was, I mean, when I was pretty much at the height of my career, I guess it was like, I guess, year, early on, that's, I guess year maybe six or seven, you know what I mean? Going into eight, you know what I mean, with San Francisco, and then I went to Philly. And then I was, you know, my game was on another level. And then I went to Dallas and it was still on another level.

Starting point is 00:25:06 It was the consistency from like maybe four, year four or five and then the trajectory of my skills and my talent, it was still trending at a level that I started to realize like, man, when I stepped on the field, I felt unstoppable. And all that came about because of really, number one, my desire to play the sport. And then I saw the greatness in the locker room

Starting point is 00:25:32 that I was in with the Jerry Rises, the Tim McDonald's, the Merton Hanks, the Steve Youngs. And then I saw JJ Stokes. Like, these guys helped develop me into the receiver that I became because I came out, when I came out I was really raw and green. I wasn't really, I wasn't playing at Chattanooga. I didn't play the Power of Fire schools.

Starting point is 00:25:51 I didn't play the tough stiff competition to where I was ready to play as soon as I stepped on the field in San Francisco when I was drafted in 96. I didn't have that, that, that, that, that, that I pop in ability to play right away like a Randy Moss coming in coming coming out of college, you know, you saw that ability. I didn't play right away. It took like three to four years for me to really get to where I got to and and and and become the receiver that I became

Starting point is 00:26:19 just by just really working hard. It was really due to those 3Ds the desire the dedication and the discipline. When you think about some of the greatest there to ever play their sport from where this baseball was tennis, you just think about all the greats. There's only a handful of those guys. But when you think about every sport,

Starting point is 00:26:37 there's a lot of good athletes, but they're only a handful of great ones. And discipline is what separates. When you listen at people talk about people that they've even played with, or coaches that have coached great players, or their peers that have, you know, played against them, played with them,

Starting point is 00:26:52 it's always something different. And discipline is that word that you love the game. Did you love the game? I came, I became in love with the game because I started to become in love with the process in which I became the receiver because I started to become in love with the process in which I became the receiver that I did. I had a personal trainer that I acquired in 90, right after the 99 season, after I

Starting point is 00:27:14 caught the pass to beat Green Bay. Sick, sick, the bread far as look at, is that the one you're seeing afterwards? I like showing the face. Look like he he loses dog. Yeah, right. Um, so I like said, I'm a big basketball fan. I'm living in Atlanta at the time. So I go to crunch and bucket and I'm all that that was my way of conditioning.

Starting point is 00:27:34 That was my way of keeping myself in shape. When you talk about the heel that you know, I never really ran routes. I never really focused on route running or anything to like training camp. I never did any on the field things I didn't do anything to really I guess enhance my football abilities as far as route running never Not not not to year nine is that was the first time I really worked out You're nine you're not what's or you still out San Fernando? You're I'm with the I'm with the Philadelphia EG. That right. Because you played eight with 49ers.

Starting point is 00:28:05 Right. And I say this because, and I'm saying this because I think about now, like you see all the YouTube and the training and all these guys with these personal trainers, this and that, and the other, they're running rouse, I'm like, I wonder what my career would have been like if I would have dedicated myself in the off season like these guys have. And I never did that until year nine is like when I

Starting point is 00:28:29 got traded to eventually getting traded to the Philadelphia Eagles. Donna Ben had he was living in Arizona and he wanted to try to get the guys on the field all together try to get a feel for each other to develop some chemistry right before the season. And so that was the first time I had really gone and ran some routes, taken some time to devote to like, okay, I'm gonna go run some routes today and do things like that, but that was the first time in my career.

Starting point is 00:28:57 So then to me, if I may, here's, you know, like if you're in high school, if you're six, six, intense grade, and you don't like basketball, guess what's gonna come knocking on your door? The coaches, right? They're gonna say, hey, Johnny, come on. Yeah. What do you mean?

Starting point is 00:29:14 You're gonna play ball. I don't play basketball, play video games. No, no, you're gonna play ball. Come on down, you know, we're gonna teach you how to play this game. And in a couple years later, maybe you do, and then five years later, you're in the NBA. And at that point, you may be a center

Starting point is 00:29:27 at the Lakers called Andrew Bynum. You know, and maybe you don't love the game. But you're great at the game. Andrew Bynum was great at the game. And I would watch and I'm like, I don't know if we're even asking the most basic question, does this guy even love the game? That's nice.

Starting point is 00:29:40 So for me, when I watch you, I'm like, okay, so if you can pull up the picture of Terrell Owens, okay, when I watch you, I'm like, okay, so if you can pull up the picture of a, a terrible owns, okay, so this is you, men's fitness, there's God knows how many pictures of your physique, absolute human specimen is what you are. And sometimes like for the average person, they can work five days, a workout,

Starting point is 00:30:01 five days a week at the gym for five years, and they still may not look like that. Okay. There's certain things that genetics plays a role when you're looking the way that you're looking. But if there's no love of the game and the game kind of just comes like, I just shook your hands right now. Can you put your hands right here so just the audience can see?

Starting point is 00:30:17 You don't got men, bro. Look at this shit. I don't think people realize like if you use it to her, her own hand, it's just, it's just, I felt like a baby going. So, but, but again, Phil Jackson will call Jordan's hands, what do we call a mid, uh, mits? He says, this guy had these hands, right? So, and you just answer the question where you're kind of like the love of the game came in ninth grade and not ninth grade your ninth year in the NFL will make kind of the process. Did you struggle with that? You're like, look, I'm just playing this

Starting point is 00:30:46 because I'm good at it. This is a joke. You guys are trying so hard. I can do this with my ice clothes. Did you kind of have that mentality? No, I mean, I was humbled early on in my career because again, like I mentioned, I was really raw from a skill set standpoint.

Starting point is 00:31:00 I had the physical attributes. When you think about the end of the 90s, I was drafted in the 96, and when you think about that era and you think about the receivers that were playing at that time, they were tall like six feet, six, three, six, four. You mentioned one of my earlier, like the Herman Moors, the Herman Moors, Jake Reads, JJ Stokes, he was six six, like Chris Carter,

Starting point is 00:31:29 Michael Irvin, Jay Rice, these were, this was the state of the game at the time, these was the big receiver, so I had the physical attributes that they were looking for in a receiver at that time, but there was a lot of things I didn't possess. I was drafted off potential. And then I said, I had the prototypical type of body

Starting point is 00:31:54 that was playing in the league at that time. And then just remember. So that was common is what you're saying. Exactly. So everything that I've done, like I said, there's just some thought behind it. Like I said, just follow me. Prototypical was what I kept hearing when coming out of college.

Starting point is 00:32:12 Like, oh, he has a prototypical body, blah, blah, the height. You had the physical attributes. There are things that I had to do along the way to enhance my abilities as a receiver. That's where my personal trainer came into play. But once I started to figure out the game itself, once I started to figure out and put things together as far as like, you know, I was struggling reading defenses.

Starting point is 00:32:38 Because I played at a Division I double-A school, like I said, the Power Files school, I didn't play the competition. When I got into a training camp, it was tough. The bump and run, I struggled with that. Free access, I could run free access all day. But once guys saw a saw and training camp that I struggled with, bump and run, every day we had one on one,

Starting point is 00:32:59 that's where I got better. And then they started to like, come up and press me. I can run routes off coverage all day. But once they saw that I struggled, that was something that they wanted to do every day. And then we watched the film after practice. I mean, everybody had one-on-one routes. And so as we went through the film,

Starting point is 00:33:23 Coach got frustrated. I mean, because I couldn't get off bump and run. So it was just like almost like a wasted rip. And they got to a point they became repetitive. Like we would, we go to the film. I knew I was coming up. Like he would critique me, you know, the first, you know, a couple of times. And after a point, it was like, it was almost embarrassing because he was just going to the next person because he's like, I'm tired of trying to, you know, get you to, you know, learn this and get out this,

Starting point is 00:33:45 but we're about. So I took it upon myself to kind of work after practice. We had a martial arts guy named George Chung on our team that was kind of just, on the team that kind of just worked with players that would have you. Why? To get off a bump and runs.

Starting point is 00:34:00 Yeah, exactly. So it moves, exactly. So, yeah, so I mean, he just went, like, aren't like pushing off. Wow, that's a great, that's a good idea. Hand, hand, play, Mark is really moving. Exactly. So, yeah, so I mean, he just went, like, pushing off. Wow, that's great. That's a good idea. Hand, hand, play tricks. Things of that nature.

Starting point is 00:34:10 And then obviously with hand, you got to move your feet too. So there were some things that I had to work on. It was like, you know, footwork, handwork. And so when you think about, you know, bump and run, a DB, what they want to do is disrupt you, you know, coming off the line of scrimmage. And so when you think about, we talked about earlier, you think about the West Coast offense, which I played in a number of systems,

Starting point is 00:34:30 but most of my career, I played in West Coast kind of offenses of what have you, which is predicated timing of precision. So you can't waste any time coming off the line because the quarterback has his progressions. I mean, I guess an average plays what between three and four seconds. So you gotta, you gotta think about okay, if you're first in the progression, second and third,

Starting point is 00:34:52 or what have you, then you can't be daily dallian at the line of scrimmage. You gotta have a plan A, you gotta have a plan B in a split second. Plan C, you're not gonna probably get the plan C because the quarterback is already moved moved on to option two to option three Depending on obviously the matchups. Depending on the coverage of what have you and so those are some of the things that I had to work on to Enhance my abilities as a receiver. Would you say you were coachable?

Starting point is 00:35:17 Very coachable my coaches. I'm tiered. I'm Larry Kirksey my first year first first few years in San Francisco George Larry Kirksey, my first year, first few years in San Francisco, George Stewart, who was my first three years while Kirksey was my receiver coach, he was my special teams coach. So coming in as a rookie, you're not starting right playing right away, you're going to play special teams. So I played a lot of special teams. I played on the punt team. I played on kickoff, I played kickoff return.

Starting point is 00:35:46 And so again, that's kind of like the groundhog days of being a rookie. Like you got to pay your dues. And so that's what I did. And so that's how I became, and like coaches saw that I was tough. And then when George Stewart, who was the special teams coach,

Starting point is 00:36:03 he became my receiver coach. When he came in that room and he knew that I was with the Jerry's, the JJ's. And it was like, we were three headed monsters. Just like the Vikings had Chris Carter, they had Randy Moss, and they had another receiver. Yeah, they had another receiver. Who was the guy that they had?

Starting point is 00:36:23 They had a third option. Was he read up there at that time? No, no. They had a third option. I can was the guy that they had? They had a third option. Was read up there at that time? No. No, they had a third option. I can't remember who it was, but they had a third option. Yeah, but it was like, yeah, so I got a third option. I got a third option. The Rams had that too.

Starting point is 00:36:33 We had. Right, so they had that comparison of us, Big Three, in San Francisco versus the Minnesota Vikings, Big Three. And so those guys kind of like said, kind of motivated me to become who I became because like I said, that was a lot of work to be done. But if honestly, except if I didn't have my personal train of buddy, Purim, that I came across

Starting point is 00:37:01 with the, you know, from a guy that I ran into that introduced him on the basketball court, I don't know, honestly, where my career would be. What I wanted to say, obviously, from a fans perspective, we've watched a controversy with you over the years, and we've watched what everyone said, whether it's Mary Uchi, Skip, you, Stephen A,

Starting point is 00:37:21 I've watched a lot of that stuff over the years, but I'm listening to you right now and I'm wondering. One, okay, so this guy's got an unbelievable skill. Like it's a prototypical, you know, you know, the what was award-use that they're calling him when you're coming out of college. He's the typical wide receiver. Yeah, prototypical physique, you know, you're 6'3'2'15 you're look bigger, but it used to say 6'3'2'15, you look bigger, but it used to say 6'3'2'15 and you're coming out playing, does he love the game, does he not love the game? Okay, and you know, if I have, you know, the same amount of years I played with Joe Montana and Steve Young, what kind

Starting point is 00:37:56 of stats would I put up, you know, what would I have done? You destroyed people. I mean, I've seen you one time, you know, Deon's playing a defense on you, you just push him and Deon falls and he's even laughing at himself the way you throw him. I mean, that, that, that, even he jokes about you guys are friends, right? Yeah. Yeah. But fast forward to today, you know, looking back with your game. You said a few things earlier, you said, you know, I was raised by my mom and my grandma no father figure in the picture.

Starting point is 00:38:21 Let's just say you did have a father figure. What is the benefit of having a father figure? What is a, you know, a difference between a fatherless home versus a father raising a terrible, what would have been the difference? I'm probably about to say structure, kind of like, you know, having that voice or having somebody to lean on, to talk to. I mean, there's responsibilities with the mom in the household and the dad in the household. At a certain age, especially from the time that you're born, you're dependent upon your mother for a large part of that.

Starting point is 00:39:04 And then at some point, you transition, from being around the mom all the time to where, okay, this is where the dad has to pick up the pieces. And this is where, especially if it's where there's a daughter or a boy or a son, you know what I mean? And this is where you have, sometimes you have like, girl dads, boy dads. And so for me, I never got a chance to experience that

Starting point is 00:39:30 because as I went through life, I started to look at other male figures as to how to go about life and how to do certain things when I didn't have, I didn't have an uncle, a big brother to lean on to talk about life and how to do certain things when I didn't have, I didn't have an uncle, a big brother to lean on, to talk about tough questions or go through tough times with. When you think about a father, I mean, they're very much needed in the household when you need somebody to talk to. And then again, there's guy things that mom can't do.

Starting point is 00:40:00 That's right. You know what I mean? And vice versa. And so I just, like I said, I don't know how different my life would be. But who's to say, but I mean, you can only imagine like I said, being in a structured household versus a not structured household or two family household and a single family household. There's three things. I mean, Dallas a couple days ago and I was talking talking to an audience, crowd with Sao Paulo's birthday.

Starting point is 00:40:26 I say every boy needs three things. He needs someone to love, someone to respect, someone to fear, okay. So, you know, in most cases, love is mom. If you got a dad, you can love is well even better. We don't necessarily need it. If you got both them in the household, right? Respect, you want to respect mom,

Starting point is 00:40:43 but maybe, you know, not at the level you respect a man that's gonna check you. And then the fear. So the 14 year old, 15 year old, 16 year old, Terrell, who did you fear? My grandmother. You feared your grandma. Oh my, she was no joke.

Starting point is 00:40:57 Really? Oh yeah, I always say that she was kinda like my mama and my dad. She raised me again, she raised all of us. And so again, my mom had me at an early age and then, you know, honestly, you know, her dreams got, you know, it was cut short because she had kids and so she couldn't do the things that she wanted to do. She had aspirations to be a model.

Starting point is 00:41:19 She had aspirations to be a designer and do those things. And so it's so funny now, as I progressed throughout my career, and I saw, and I got to know what those things that she wanted to do, I got a chance to do those things. She kind of got to live, I carestly through me. And so my grandma, she was very strict.

Starting point is 00:41:42 She was a disciplinarian to the nth degree. And I got a chance to understand, like, too, how she grew up. And she raised us, how she grew up. You think about the segregation era of having to just face racism, do all, you know, experience those things. And I didn't know anything about it. But I used to be around when she used to be on the phone and talk to certain people about how she grew up, and how her mom and dad grew up, and just the whole black and white picture, I didn't understand

Starting point is 00:42:16 at that time, but as I grew older, I got a chance to understand and look back and I'm like, oh, this is what she meant. So again, when you think about racism, you think about systemic racism, those some things, like I said, I heard, but then as I went through life and I got older, I got to experience a little bit of those things. And so when you think about how she was raised and then how I was raised,

Starting point is 00:42:40 I'm just like I said, I mean, she replaced, you know, the father that I didn't have. But again, as I grew up and I went through life, I realized me not having a father and then me having kids, I didn't wanna beat that to my kids. I didn't, I wanted to go a different path. And then sometimes it's all about, like I said, you don't have to be in the same household,

Starting point is 00:43:01 but you have to be present at some point in time in your kids' lives. And so for me, I have kids, and I always have to be in the same household, but you have to be present at some point in time in your kids' lives. And so for me, I have kids, and I always try to be supportive, and I try to be there for them when I can. Relationship now, because as a kid, my parents got divorced, and I saw my dad once every other week

Starting point is 00:43:19 when they got divorced. When we came here, I lived in Germany two years at a refugee campsite. They didn't see my dad there. When you were later on yourself, I think you had a, did you rekindle the relationship with your, there was a meeting with you and your father, right? I think you went for a network where you guys had a sat down. Yeah, on.

Starting point is 00:43:36 Right. Y'all love Ben Zant, did a show, had a show called Fixed My Life. And so, yeah, they reached out to me about doing it. And it almost didn't happen because he signed on for it and then you know I think it really got deep form got tough form and he almost backed out of it But he's he's stuck in there and we we went through it and that was the first time honestly on that show That was the first time I had ever seen my mom and my dad in the same room for you know more than five minutes Um as I went through the city I grew up and I saw him around town.

Starting point is 00:44:06 It was kind of like more of high by. Maybe spend a five and five to 10 minutes here with him here and there, but that was pretty much the extent of it. But my dad lived right across the street from me living with my grandma. And so ultimately, like I said, I found out that he was my dad,

Starting point is 00:44:21 but at some point, like I said, there was a time that I didn't know. And then once I found out, like I said, it was just kind he was my dad, but at some point, like I said, there was a time that I didn't know. And then once I found out, like I said, it was just kinda like me, okay, he's my dad. So what age did you know, the two? Around like 11 or 12, somewhere in there. I was a preteen. Got it.

Starting point is 00:44:35 Are you guys good now? Do you have a relationship or no? It's just, I mean, it's cordial. I mean, we don't have the best of, nothing changed, nothing really drastically changed when I made it to the pros, it wasn't like, he knew that I was a professional, I made money, it wasn't like, now he wanted to lead John,

Starting point is 00:44:52 it was nothing, it was. Respect that he did, sometimes you hear those stories. That's good to hear. Right, it was nothing close to that. Is there an effort, is there like, hey, you wanna have lunch, you wanna go to dinner, and support or something like that? When I go home, I make it a point to stop by. Respect. Is there an effort like is there like, hey, you wanna have lunch, you wanna go to dinner, like a quarter or something like that?

Starting point is 00:45:05 When I go home, I make it a point to stop by. Respect. And you know, my grandma, she passed in 2012. My sister, my nephew, they live in the house, so I always go by and like I said, I town are so small, I mean, I just usually like said, when I go home, you know was, it's who raised me. So I always go right by the house.

Starting point is 00:45:28 And so he's always there. Last night I'm watching a documentary of the Shah, 2500 years celebration in Iran. It's not anything that has to do with this interview. And Zaheddi who was the ambassador to US, representing Iran, he was dating Elizabeth Taylor. He said something very powerful on this documentary. He says, two things destroy men, status and money.

Starting point is 00:45:48 When you first came and you experienced money, you made almost 100 million, I think NFL, I don't know the exact contract, I think you made 80 million bucks, give or take, NFL's brought money. What was harder to handle? Was it more status, eyeballs, limelight? You can't go out, girls, I mean, you're a good-looking guy,

Starting point is 00:46:08 good body, you got swagger, you know how to talk? Was that tougher to handle? As a young man, or was it money, sudden money coming into your eyes, tougher to handle? I don't think neither was hard to handle. I mean, I think I took the fame, I took it all in stride. Again, I didn't see myself as a superstar and I wasn't a superstar right away.

Starting point is 00:46:32 Again, I was drafted off potential. And so that potential really didn't get tapped into to after that, I would say like after that, that Green Bay playoff game, that was when I think I started to develop some confidence in myself that I, okay, I could play at the next level. Anybody that knows about that game, it didn't start well by any means for you.

Starting point is 00:46:54 But in, and I always say this is so cliche, it's not how you start, it's how you finish. I had a terrible start of the game. And so for me, I put a lot of pressure on myself because that was like, now I'm starting to play This is year three now. I'm starting to really play alongside Jerry Rice JJ Stokes Brent Jones Steve Young, I mean, I'm starting to be a part of the offense and so I wanted and I for three years

Starting point is 00:47:19 I got a chance to watch highlights of Jerry I got to swatch practices of Jerry. I got to watch playoff games of Jerry and how he performed. And I wanted to be that, I wanted to be somewhat like him. I wanted to be that star. And I put, so I think I put so much pressure on myself to make a play every time that I touched the ball that it was counterproductive. Like it was just something that just went wrong.

Starting point is 00:47:44 I had a fumble. I dropped a touchdown. I mean, there are passes that literally I watched into my hand after a couple of long, a couple of passes dropped. I went to the sideline and my coach was like, man, just watch, you know, my team, actually is like, man, just watch it all the way

Starting point is 00:47:58 into your hand. But this is my third year. It's not like I don't know how to catch. But for me, I'm thinking, okay, this is the playoffs. In order to get to the Super Bowl, you gotta win. In order for all these things to happen, you gotta play well. And so I wasn't playing well at that particular time.

Starting point is 00:48:14 And so I literally like said, it was one play, like I remember the route, and my coach's like, you'll just watch it all the way into your hand because they saw that I was pressing. I literally, I watched the ball all the way into my hands and I still dropped it. Still dropped it, but I had so much confidence in myself. And when you, in the league, you hear people in play

Starting point is 00:48:36 or say, like, you go to the next play. You can't dwell on what just happened because the viewers is gonna linger throughout the course of the game. And essentially, that's exactly what I did. I had to keep, I said, go to the next play. And you think about Jared Rice was on the field on that last play in which I ultimately called.

Starting point is 00:48:53 When you think about basketball, and it's a last second shot, you need a bucket, you're usually gonna put the ball in the best player's hands. On that particular play, obviously, Steve Young touches the ball. They quarterback touched the ball 99.9% of the time. Obviously he's one of the best players on the on the team. But in that particular time, we needed to get the ball into the end zone. We got Jerry Rice on the other side. We got JJ. We got myself. We got Brent Jones.

Starting point is 00:49:22 They ran cover two pretty much the entire series. The play before I called the touchdown, they ran exact same coverage. Steve Young threw the ball right before that play. He threw the ball on a comeback to JJ Stokes that almost got picked off. And on that play, I saw that I was wide open because they played cover two. And cover two, you're playing a slot. The middle is wide open. You have the seam. And I'm yo, and I came back and I'm like, yo,

Starting point is 00:49:52 I'm wide open running. So we call the plays called all go. The play before that was called all go double comeback in which it almost got picked off and thrown into JJ. He called the same play, we gotta go to the, we gotta take shots. The two outside guys instead of them same play, we gotta go to the, we gotta take shots. The two outside guys instead of them running come back

Starting point is 00:50:08 because they gotta go to the end zone. So it's gonna threaten those two safeties. They gotta play one way or the other. So I think that they were probably thinking that he's gonna throw that ball like I was looting to. When you brought back basketball, you're gonna put the ball in the best player's hands. At that time, I'm playing bad. I'm pretty sure they probably not thinking that they're gonna throw the ball in the best player's hands. At that time, I'm playing bad.

Starting point is 00:50:25 I'm pretty sure they probably not thinking that they're gonna throw the ball to me, but as an offense and as a defense, you have to play to your principals. All I did was run, I ran the same exact route. And I just bit, I saw the same, the middle wide open, I ran it, and Steve Young threw the ball literally where it could only be caught. And I made the play, the middle wide open, I ran it and Steve Young threw the ball literally where

Starting point is 00:50:45 it could only be caught. And I made the play, I caught it, I watched it, it was like slow motion, but I didn't know he almost failed on that play until obviously watching the highlights. Could I ask you a question about that play? He tripped on the center's second step, right? Hold on, yeah, I really, right? But could I ask you a question too? I mean, he almost falls, by the way, you catch it, Tio, that that hit right there,

Starting point is 00:51:06 probably would have been a penalty today. Are you hurt right here? Or are you just like, oh my God. No, and Larry, it gives me chills, the CD is, because immediately I thought about my grandma. Wow, dude. Immediately, immediately, because she always, she always, I was raised in the church

Starting point is 00:51:23 and she always told me to just have faith, no matter what. And in this particular time, like I said, I had to have faith in my abilities that I could be able to do what I, again, internally mentally, that it wasn't showing that I could do. But I just had to have the faith

Starting point is 00:51:41 that to keep going to know that I could make this play. And Steve, I mean, he put the ball literally like where no one else could catch it but me. And soon as he, as soon as he hit, the sooner I caught it and they hit me and I went to the ground, I said, thank you Jesus. I said, thank you, Jesus. And I, and in my grandma, I literally, I was thinking about my grandma at that time. Well, we as fans thought your shoulders popped because you got sandwitch. You were like, okay, this guy's injured right now, but again, going back, you know, it's funny.

Starting point is 00:52:09 I want to go back to the question, but I do want to bring something up here that your reaction right now to that clip, but my question's still not answered. So I'm going to go back to it. I'm going to go back to this clip, August 29th, where you said, this is terrible advice. Ex-Caboy White receiver,

Starting point is 00:52:26 Terrell owns Chimes in on Michael Orburn's words of wisdom to CD-Blam, right? If I go to the story and you'll see why I'm going to this article here, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, what pages it is, it eight, there you go. Okay, Terrell owns criticized, Cabo's right, there's Michael Orburn's advice,

Starting point is 00:52:42 there's in other, Terrell or he took issue with the idea that the receiver should primary catch the ball with their body Stating every receiver coach and head coach is cringing right now Listen to the notion for receivers to catch with your body in some cases. Yes, but this isn't this isn't bad advice This is terrible advice almost emphasizes disagreement with urbans Advice by highlighting his own impressive career statistics stating that I got more touchdowns and Combined in the two of you guys. I think you're talking who, you're talking who,

Starting point is 00:53:07 Carter and Keeshan, is that who, was he we're talking to? Yeah, I think, yeah. You know, Irvin and Keeshan, they had 139, you had 150. But, but you, let me understand what you were trying to say and see if I'm understanding correctly. When you're going through the middle, guys don't want to go up and get the ball because you're gonna get hit, you're gonna get poppy.

Starting point is 00:53:24 You wanna, you wanna cash the ball here. There's possibilities of being injured. You didn't give a shit, you'd get up go up and get the ball because you're going to get hit, you're going to get poppy. You want to catch the ball here. There's possibilities of being injured. You didn't give a shit. You'd get up there and go get the ball. Is that kind of what you were alluding to? Yeah. I mean, in certain situations, especially depending on where the defenders are. And today's game, and even when I play, defenders are really crafty.

Starting point is 00:53:41 And they know the catching points and where the ball is being thrown. So they're going to try to stick their hands in there to dish up and dislodge That football so Well, I was looting it to like in certain certain instances as a receiver you have to Catch the ball with your hands because if you allow it to get close to your body Especially with a defender behind you there. Are you they're gonna hit you and have it in dislodget, or they're gonna just put their hands, they're gonna slap the ball down

Starting point is 00:54:11 versus catching the ball out front versus letting the ball get here. From the coach. I would never let a ball get to here if I'm running away from a defender. Why would I let the ball get to here because having a tendency? Because if you have late hands,

Starting point is 00:54:28 anything, if you have your hands dropping, you have late hands, and you see the ball coming to you, and it hits, you're gonna have a tendency to probably drop that ball because it's gonna hit your passing, it's gonna ricochet off, it's gonna bounce off,

Starting point is 00:54:40 versus catching the ball with your hands, and tucking it. You've had a lot of coaches. Which coaches ever you're going to be in the middle of the day. And then you're going to be in the middle of the day. And then you're going to be in the middle of the day. And then you're going to be

Starting point is 00:54:50 in the middle of the day. And then you're going to be in the middle of the day. And then you're going to be in the middle of the day. And then you're going to be in the middle of the day. And then you're going to be

Starting point is 00:54:58 in the middle of the day. And then you're going to be in the middle of the day. And then you're going to be in the middle of the day. And then you're going to be in the middle of the day. And then you're going to be in the middle of the day. And then you're going to be in the middle of the day. And this is Michael Irvin, what they say. With your body. It's not to say that you can't, but there are basics. There are basics fundamentals to everything.

Starting point is 00:55:11 And the basics fundamental for catching the football is to catch it with your hands. You're not going to tell a kid, teach a kid to catch it with your body. Even if you're throwing with a little kid or whatever, you want them to catch it with their hands, right? Because if it gets to that body, what are they gonna, people can drop it. And this is Kishan and Michael, both of them had glues. They had great hands as well.

Starting point is 00:55:30 I mean, Kishan and... Fuckin' it. They caught a lot of balls, but then you think about to be a receiver and to obviously be a really productive receiver, you wanna score touchdowns. And you look at those two catch, I think Michael's more of a body catcher

Starting point is 00:55:48 and he was talking from his experience. He's more of a body catcher. And if you look at his game, he catches the ball a lot like this. I just never, I was never taught that way. Maybe he was and then maybe it worked for him. But for me, I just, I don't understand, like I said, being a professional, that you would encourage a body catch.

Starting point is 00:56:07 You prompted three questions. I gotta get to all of them. I'm curious. Let me go back to number one. Lime Light status, you went to the story and you talked about how you caught the ball and they went to you, JJ, almost interception and you caught the game boom.

Starting point is 00:56:19 You didn't answer the question. So, Lime Light or Money, for me, I've money, and you know, where money to me didn't come sudden because in the insurance game, you don't go from, hey, there's a superstar insurance agent, coming out of Northridge, California, boom, next you get a 20 million dollar. It doesn't happen in insurance. You kind of go from 100,000 to 200,000 to 400,000,

Starting point is 00:56:39 and you know what, oh, I make a million. I make 10 million. I made a hundred million. Damn, we make 300 million dollars. It experiences that way. But in NFL, you go from high school, back to in college, if you were getting paid, you were getting paid because you were great, you know, valet guy, you work once a month and got a hundred thousand dollars tip, but for the most part, people didn't get paid back

Starting point is 00:56:57 in a days in college. Then you come to the NFL, then all of a sudden, you know, as a fan, Terrell, you're not a fan of the NFL, you're a fan of a sudden, you know, as a fan, Terrell, you're not a fan of the NFL, you're a fan of a NBA, you said it earlier, right? As a guy that's a fan of the game, we typically as fans of the game, we follow two different things, okay, when the leader's boy, when he has been apps comes out, you're checking a couple things. One, you're checking your team. And two, you're checking your players. But then there are some players whether you like them or dislike them. If they're on, you just gotta watch them, right?

Starting point is 00:57:29 You were one of those guys. So I became one of those guys. You became one of those guys. You were either a fan, you were either hated, or you were on a team that was winning so people were interested. And you didn't just play on any teams that, the fans are like regular fans.

Starting point is 00:57:43 You're talking about 49ers, hardcore fans, Eagles, hardcore, Cowboys, religion, you can play on regular teams. So going back to it, I really want to know because when was it when you're like, Shaq tells the story when the first time he got money, boom, it went like this, right? And I've had Shaqon and we've talked multiple times,

Starting point is 00:58:03 boom, money because he never see money like this before. Did the money or status, will you ever like, I've never had this many people in back then, there was an Instagram where you're getting 6,000 DMs and you're like, oh shit, you never played Instagram DM days, right? You're, you're pre-that era, right? But there must have been a time where you got certain limelight and money. What did that do to you?

Starting point is 00:58:23 It motivated me number one. As far as the limelight and money. What did that do to you? It motivated me number one. As far as the limelight, the status stuff, I think I just took it all in stride. I mean, I saw what superstars were like. I got a chance, like I said, as a rookie watching Jerry. These guys are driving for ouries, Lamborghinis, I was driving up Ford Explorer. The limited edition, but it was the top of the line,

Starting point is 00:58:52 but it was the limited edition. Yeah, okay. That was a limited edition. Hey, baller. All right. I love that car. Right, but that's what I was driving to practice every day. And I saw these other guys, they were driving Mercedes where there was the coups or the sedans the V12s

Starting point is 00:59:11 That that's what motivated you never had a Ferrari or Lambo. Nope. You've never had a Ferrari or Lambo No, I wasn't I wasn't even in I wasn't a car guy. What's the most expensive car you ever had? Mercedes, I think the V12 maybeale maybe or a G-Wagon. You had a G-Wagon as San Francisco. Yeah, yeah, that's it. But never talking about it. Yeah, but I mean, that was what motivated me and interesting. I saw that. I don't think money changed me Like I said again, obviously there made a lot of money um Like I said what motivated me was seeing what I could get based on what I was doing on the football field and at that point

Starting point is 00:59:58 time what I was doing on the football field didn't warrant or guarantee what I wanted. So again, a lot of factors helped me along the way to become who I became. It wasn't like I said, we all have our motivations. But for me, it was my training, my training, the way that I trained my body and once I changed my diet, my nutrition, all those things optimized my performance. And once I saw what those things did,

Starting point is 01:00:32 the result of it, again, I honestly, I came fixated, I came obsessed with the results. And so that's why I trained so hard in the off season. That's why I trained so hard in the off season. That's why I took it. I took things personally. When I saw my teammates not doing certain things or I knew what I was doing in the off season. And I'm like, man, obviously these guys aren't working as hard as I am. Because I knew I knew this. I saw the shoes that I eventually that I had to feel in Jerry Rice. And then the light bulb clicked on a couple of times for me

Starting point is 01:01:07 is when I saw that the Niners traded away Jerry Rice and kind of just basically kind of give me the keys to the car, that was like, okay, they think a lot of me to be getting rid of the greatest receiver of all time, who pretty much has been a mainstay for that organization for a number of years. And so for me, to have this guy come out of UT Chatnouga,

Starting point is 01:01:33 small division one school, small town in Alexander City, Alabama, and see the potential of possibly, again, possibly taking this franchise to possibly winning the Super Bowl championship. That's when it kinda all hit for me. So, so, Tom, I do want you to ask the question. One thing I do wanna know, I still, I'm still gonna get into the question I wanna ask you.

Starting point is 01:01:56 Okay. Because I'm sensing the language. By the way, we got a ball here, signed by Terrell Owens, which some of you can get. And Rob, you wanna tell him how they can compete for this ball here? Uh, sure. At the top of the chat, there's a trivia question, something that Terrell, a Terrell had mentioned earlier, so Robert, something that Terrell had mentioned earlier during the podcast.

Starting point is 01:02:17 Uh, if you click the link, it's in the top of the chat. Go ahead and answer the trivia question. And one lucky winner's going to walk away with that sign football as well as one of the candles from 81 loft. I love it, I love 81 home, yes sir. I love it, let's put that link below as well. So let me go back to it status. I've listened to you and I speak sign language. And what sign language has been around a lot

Starting point is 01:02:39 of competitive people in our industry, we're very competitive, we have a competitive environment. You've talked about yourself with Jerry multiple times. And so I asked Kobe a question years ago and Shaq wasn't happy about it. He DM me immediately and he blocked me. Eventually we rekindled and our relationship is fine today, but when I brought him

Starting point is 01:03:00 to our convention last year and his guy says, hey, Shaq wants to talk to you. I go to the back Shaq says, you know, that's the dumbest question I've ever heard anybody ask. What was the question? That's a stupid question. I asked Shaq the question, how many championships would he have had? You know, I asked Kobe the question, how many,

Starting point is 01:03:16 the late Kobe, how many championships would they have had if Shaq would have had the same work ethic as Kobe? And then, you know, Kobe gives us answer without 10, 11, 12 rings. But you, everything is Jerry Rice. If I had Joe Montana and I had Steve Young, I would have had 3,000, 5,000 more yards. I would have 50 more touchdowns.

Starting point is 01:03:37 And it's a great argument that could have been made. And then running out of the two choices they had, they threw to me. And instead of going to Jerry, I'm the one that caught the ball we won, we beat Green Bay, boom, and earlier JJ Interception. Then I asked about the hill, I would have thought, for sure, you trained with them with the hill,

Starting point is 01:03:56 you said you never went up to 2 1,5 mile hill with them. Okay, I got that. And then also there was a couple of the comments you made about Jerry with him. You gave him respect, but the the language I'm getting from what you're saying is you feel You were a much better receiver than Jerry rights. Is that a fair question? I Had the potential to be it to to be that the statistics doesn't say that

Starting point is 01:04:20 But longevity wise like said that's where it stands. And I'm always gonna give him respect in that regard. But there's a lot of people that watch our game and you kind of look at how he played the game and how I played the game. A lot of people could probably say that, yeah, I would have been better than Jerry. But obviously, like I said,

Starting point is 01:04:43 based on my genetic makeup, I feel like I could have eclipsed a lot of things. Had I been able and afforded the opportunity to play three or four more years, I would have threatened a lot of his records. And it would have been a no-brainer. It would have been very distinctive as who is the best receiver of all time.

Starting point is 01:05:07 Obviously, does that, you know, does championships come into play? Depends on who you talk to because there's a lot of great athletes that don't have championships. That doesn't mean that they're not champions. I mean, I always say like, yeah, I don't have a championship, a Super Bowl champion championship ring, but I played like a champion. And so for me, I don't need the championship to validate what I did on the football field. I think the statistics, your optics,

Starting point is 01:05:32 if you watch how I play the game, it speaks for itself. There's a lot of things that Jerry did that I couldn't do early on in my career, but there's a lot of things I caught up very, very, very in a short period of time. When you think about the speed, the speed in which we play, I became faster than Jerry. Some of the things that I struggled with in early on in my career was drop balls.

Starting point is 01:05:58 When you look at the history of Jerry, he struggled with drop balls too at some point in time. So Jerry set the barometer. He set the bar for everybody, I think a lot of receivers that are playing the game today. And I think some people, some kids would probably say, I've set the bar for how they played. And I've run across a number of people that are either athletes or moms or dads of their sons that have basically have said, like, yo, you're the blueprint for my son or for my kid.

Starting point is 01:06:29 And you never always asking me like advice as to how I became as good as I did. And it wasn't an overnight process. A lot of people don't even remember my college career. They just know of my professional career because I didn't play it a purified school. And obviously now we're in an age in the era of social media. But again, a lot of people, when I do interviews

Starting point is 01:06:50 or I've done speaking engagement, some people they don't even know, let's say given the introduction, they don't even know where I played in college. They just know about me playing in San Francisco. They remember me going to the start. They remember the highlights on ESPN, the dances, the touchdowns. They remember me playing in Philadelphia, going there, you know, you know, playing lights out, going to the Super Bowl, playing basically

Starting point is 01:07:19 on a broken leg in the Super Bowl. They remember me going to, you know, playing in Dallas, playing against the rivalry teams, playing against, you know, the NFC East, whether it's the Giants or the Eagles, they remember that. They don't, a lot of people don't, they'd be hard pressed to find a lot of highlights and a lot of clips from my college career. Let me go back to this on what you're saying with Jerry.

Starting point is 01:07:40 So in your mind, you said you're an NBA guy, right? You said you're not an NFL guy. You're a fan of NBA. And I'm assuming you've watched the last dance and I'm assuming you know the stats and all that. You know the arguments. The arguments, Michael versus LeBron, Michael Kobe, you know, and then boom, you know, well, Michael's got six out of six. Never went to game seven. LeBron, blah, blah, blah, blah. Michael Kobe LeBron, that's my, that's my order. Michael LeBron Kobe. No, Michael Kobe LeBron. Oh, you have Kobe head of LeBron. Okay, in your mind, in your mind, do you, do you kind of tell yourself,

Starting point is 01:08:12 you know, I didn't have the longevity that like, do you look at Jerry as Kareem and yourself as Michael? It would be a tragedy if we were losing one person to drug overdose every day, even five, seven or 12 people. It would be unimaginable if 15 families a day received news of a lost loved one to overdose. But in Canada, we lose 20 people to overdose.

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Starting point is 01:09:05 sweet with a touch of heat in the sweet chili McRap or go big on bacon with the savory and satisfying classic chicken and bacon. Try the McRap in three big flavors today only at McDonald's. Yeah I could say that. That's what I'm hearing from what you're saying. I could say that. Yeah, sure, I could say that. So you think you're MJ as a receiver? I do. I mean, I did. I played at a level that not many could play it, considering where I came from.

Starting point is 01:09:40 Like I said, when you talk about those stats, had I played right away my first three years, if I had the ability to play right away, and then in fact, I mean, I got the probably maybe at least 2,000 yards there in those first three years. But I didn't really play a lot my first three years. So you put two there, two there, let's just say it's 2,100. We give you, that puts you at 18,000. And you kind of get a couple on the back end.

Starting point is 01:10:07 Maybe you'd be at 20. You know, in the goat conversation, I don't know if it's just stats. Because if you do stats, Malone will be in the conversation. You would have to put all these other guys in the conversation. It's how you play the game. So what do you put yourself against? I don't know. Not I don't want to put Calvin Johnson. What do you put yourself against? I don't know, not to, I don't want to put Calvin Johnson. What do you put yourself against Randy Moss?

Starting point is 01:10:29 You and Randy. I feel like I'm better than Randy Moss. You think you're better than Randy? Yeah, because of how I played the game. I played every facet of the game. I didn't just play receiver. Randy played when he wanted to and he said that. And I'm not saying that.

Starting point is 01:10:40 You said that, yeah. Yeah, me and when you look at, when we, when we, my coach, George Stewart, like I owe a lot of what I became to my, my coaches at every stop pretty much. Larry Cursey, George Stewart, and when I went to Philadelphia Eagles, it was David Cully and when I went to Dallas, it was Ray Sherman. Those were, when you talked about father figures, those were my father figures at my stops. And those guys pushed me and elevated my game to where it did because they saw the potential that I had and they didn't want me to, they didn't want me to take it for

Starting point is 01:11:17 granted. And so when you think about it, so we, like I said, we played the Minnesota Vikings and there are times that we played teams that played the Vikings and coach would pull up highlights of Randy. He would not even move. It would be a running, it would be a running play. Obviously, it could be backside or whatever. Okay, he wouldn't even come out of his stance. For me, that's not a team player. We think about guys that block down the field, doing the extra things, not only when you have the ball, but when you don't have

Starting point is 01:11:53 the ball, that's part of being a team player. I played every level of the game. You know, all facets of the game. I blocked. I called the ball, I called the ball over the middle. That was something I wasn't afraid to do. I mean, it comes with a little fear. You got to be kind of a little nuts. But again, but if you trust, that's what practice comes into play. When you trust the guys, when you trust the practice habits, you trust those things that you're doing and you trust that a quarterback is not going to hang you out to dry. But if you're doing, and you're supposed to be

Starting point is 01:12:28 on a given route, then you're not gonna have those hits. You're not gonna have those bone crushing, jarring hits because you know that you've prepared and you know what to do and when to do it. And if you're reading, if you're becoming a student of the game, you're running your routes and you're learning, you know, where the holes are, what, when to run, man, when you run zone, when you find a different

Starting point is 01:12:52 holes in the, in the, in the offense or in the defense, there's something we call the scramble drill. When a quarterback gets out of the pocket, and you have to be in relationship to the quarterback. In order to get that ball into extend plays, obviously you got to have a quarterback that can actually do it. But for me, I'm big on acronyms. I was going to say one early when you started mentioning. You said the three these, desired discipline.

Starting point is 01:13:17 Right. And there was more education. Yeah, you were talking about Andrew Bynum. We were talking about big bass. Love of the game. Yeah. I got an acronym for guys that really, they're in the league, but they're not really taking advantage of their height

Starting point is 01:13:32 and what they could be doing, because they're in the league because of height, not sometimes not because there's a lot of skill. And I always tell that some of those guys, like their BFNR, that's an acronym for Big for No Reason. Big for No Reason. I'm like, bro, you can play better than what you are. You're just on the court because of your height. A little bit of skill, but you could be playing way better

Starting point is 01:13:52 than that. So my other acronym is I call MYA, which is make yourself available. And when you're in that scramble drill, a lot of my plays came, big plays came off of that because you have to be in relations, depending on where you on the field, you have to be in relationship with the quarterback.

Starting point is 01:14:09 And so when a quarterback gets out of the pocket, number one, he's trying to find, the play is broken down and he's trying to find somebody that throw the ball to. And when they're getting out of the pocket, especially when you have some defensive guys that can really hurt you, you don't want to take, you don't want to be on the end of a Sean Marion hit

Starting point is 01:14:31 or Ray Lewis hit or any of those big guys. So you're trying to find, they're trying to find, the first available non-opposing team jersey that they can to get the ball to. So for me, depending on where you are on the field, you want to make yourself available for that quarterback to get the ball to. So for me, depending on where you are in the field, you wanna make yourself available for that quarterback to get the ball and then make some positive yards. And if the pinnacle, like I said, where you are in the field,

Starting point is 01:14:51 you either, you can divert with that route, go down the field, you can come across, or you can come back to the quarterback. Who was greater? Who was greater? Joe Montana or Jerry Rice? Joe Montana or who? I would, I would probably say Joe Montana. So then. Joe Montana or, ooh, that, I would,

Starting point is 01:15:05 ooh, I would probably say Joe Montana. So then that says a lot. So if you have a pick, and you've got two players in the draft ahead, they can pick up. You got Joe and Jerry. Do you pick up Joe or Jerry? You're saying Joe.

Starting point is 01:15:16 Yeah, Joe, Steve? No, no, no, no, it's Joe and Jerry. Joe and Jerry. There's a reason why I'm asking this question. Say you're on the draft. I'm gonna go with, I'm gonna go with Joe. Why is that? Why is Joe Vajary?

Starting point is 01:15:27 Joe Montana was it? Because Joe, I mean, just think about his, his acumen of a quarterback. When you think about precision and timing and what I've watched and what I learned about the West Coast offense, Joe is accurate. He can get out of the pocket when he to. He wasn't as mobile as a Steve Young, but he reminds me, and I think of a Tom Brady. He knows when and where to put the ball.

Starting point is 01:15:54 Ball placement is timing. He's going to put the ball where it needs to be and he's going to create in the offensive plays and the offensive coordinate. They're going to create different matchups in order for you to get the ball. So for me to be on the receiving end or be on the field with the Joe Montana, I know that the level of success that I'm gonna have with a guy like that, that knows where to put the ball, when to throw it and knowing me as a receiver, what I can do once I get my hands on.

Starting point is 01:16:20 Joe Young. Still, Joe Montana. You know, you know, you know, you know, you know, I'm asking this question, I'm asking this question because if, if, if in your as a receiver, if you believe you're a better receiver, you know, you running with Joe, you think you would have better numbers than Jerry running with Joe for the same amount of years. Oh, yeah. Okay, that's what I was going with it. Yeah, I got it. Because I think if you look at how I played the game, I mean, I was a bigger. I was able to break a lot of tackles.

Starting point is 01:16:55 Obviously going, I mean, I didn't have to really go up and high point a lot of balls. I didn't have to early on in my career. You didn't really see me catch a lot of deep balls until I left and I went to feel it and then Dallas. And that was mainly because of the quarterback position. So got to see a wood throw deep. You have 54 touchdowns with them, but it wasn't a lot, it was more runs catch and run.

Starting point is 01:17:23 Right. Garcy, if you think about it, you watch the highlights. We never was on a, like, to just say, backed up in our own territory. He wasn't a guy that's going to throw you a 50, 60, 70-yard ball. We never really got the throw deep balls unless we got close to the 50. To where then, okay, we can take some shots because you didn't have that strong over arm. Our offense was predicated on his skill set and he was better coming roll out, not really,

Starting point is 01:17:51 he was not your traditional pocket passer for instance. Interesting to be thinking about that. That whole process for me would Michael Tom, I think you wanted to ask something, you were looking at your notes to ask something. You bring up something really, really good about being the entire player, right? Because there are receivers who would block that know safety or corner wanted to take their eye off on the block.

Starting point is 01:18:18 And I think of Shannon Sharpen, Vernon Davis, big boys that were unafraid to block. And so somebody's in the slot and they're coming across this way and all of a sudden the cornerback disappears. Where'd he go? Right. Well, he wasn't paying attention. And you kind of played, kind of, kind of ward you did it too. And now, kind of ward also had a reputation for sometimes being a little, a little dirty, maybe, a little, a little, a little, a little later than he was supposed to be. Right. But you had But you had all that, and you also played at that time. You say you don't really talk about the eras,

Starting point is 01:18:49 but there are three eras. There is the era that Jerry drafted in. By the way, it's a Niners and another small school guy, Mr. Cipi, that was the day. That was a lot of similarity there. And you had a time when he started, guys like Kenny Easily could do stuff that they would get flagged all day for today.

Starting point is 01:19:10 And then you had the middle era, right? Where they changed the PI rule. And then you have today's era. It says, you came right into that middle era, right? And even though you say, I get to get the other friends and don't really watch the game, do you think if you had back it up seven years and you had played in that much more physical era, where do you think you would have been in that because it seems like

Starting point is 01:19:37 your career is like a pot of chili. It just kept getting better, it kept cooking and getting better. You had the big game in the championship, you beat Marshall, hey, this guy should be at the combine, picked in the third round. And obviously from your own words here, you're saying you knew you could play in the NFL, but you weren't sure you were going to stay in the NFL. It was, you caught that ball. When you think back of that super physical era there, with the physical attributes you had, when you think about your yards, do you think about today with the physical attributes you had.

Starting point is 01:20:05 When you think about your yards, do you think about today with the PI rules, are you thinking about that era? Because it's different today. It's easier to judge today than a 10 years ago or 20 years ago. Yeah, that's why I say there's such an inflation with these receivers with their yards now, because they really can't get touched. And then a lot of defensive guys, they're not hitting guys, which could lead obviously to interceptions and completions. They're not really playing with the physicality that you mentioned

Starting point is 01:20:40 that early on. They're not playing with that type of physicality. So what's your question to me is like, which era would I would have- Yeah, if you look to when Jerry started, and you're comparing yourself to Jerry's years, you have to remember when he started. Right. There is a famous quote from Joe Montana. He said, there is one man that I wanna know

Starting point is 01:20:59 where he is at all times on the field, and it's not on my team, it's Kenny Easley. He said that. It's like five years into his career because of the era. So when you compare yourself to Jerry, I'm asking you to go back and think about that era that Jerry started in where you had to be so crafty and so aware because the PI rule was different

Starting point is 01:21:17 and you know who I'm talking about. Right, and so again, that's why I alluded to early when when you think about going across the middle. There's a lot of ways to protect yourself. You can't just be running aimlessly, just running routes, just because, okay, you got a dig route and it says, go over the middle at 15 yards. There's a reason why you have to go a certain distance. There's a reason why you have to check up in the hole.

Starting point is 01:21:42 There's a reason why you have to keep on the move. That's where practice comes into play. And there are tendencies again, like I said, I mean, there are some guys on the other side of the ball that can play just as well as the guys on the offensive side. There's a lot of guy defensive guys that play. They're just as smart. So again, the quarterback, again,

Starting point is 01:22:01 they can protect you with throws. And again, you have to know where guys are that can disrupt the game. But I think if I played in Jerry's era, again, I think I would have been just successful, especially with a quarterback that is that is very cerebral, like a Joe Montana. And then a Steve Young because like I said, everything is that West Coast offense is predicated on precision and timing. And there wasn't back then to your point, there wasn't a lot of these exotic defenses that defensive coordinators and schemes are playing now.

Starting point is 01:22:33 And the athletes are not as great than as they are now either. So, okay, let's transition. Did that help with your question time? I don't know if you were trying to give them question. You want to know how much you know the game. We all know you know football very, very well. I'm going to send those to history.

Starting point is 01:22:49 Comparing to right, I wanted to go back to the real era. Yeah, and even until even on that catch against Green Bay, they would have called those guys for penalties for hitting them the way that they did. I don't even get a flagged the other day. I didn't even understand them. Like, what was the flag for this? For hurting his feelings, you probably said something.

Starting point is 01:23:03 The guy hit somebody hard and they gave a flag, made no sense to me. Look at how they babysit the quarterbacks. I mean, forget it, you can't touch them. You can't do this. Yeah, that's crazy. It's too much. It's too much.

Starting point is 01:23:15 And then you run into a guy's leg and you're calling a flag. Like, you can't freeze frame your speed and then move yourself out of the way, not to hit somebody. They even move the kickoff, right? Like, Teo, you don't even see any kickoff returns. I mean, that yourself out of the way not to hit somebody. They even move the kickoff right? Like, Taylor, you don't even see any kickoff for turns. I mean, that's one of the most exciting parts of the game that's gone. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:23:31 So, let's go with, let me see, if I've covered this, I've covered this, I got this, this, this, I got all of this. Good. Steven A and Max Kellerman. These guys had a show, prior to it, it used to be with what? Skip Bayless and Skip and Steven A used to do first take. And a Max comes in and I think Skip goes with Shannon Sharp. And by the way, Shannon, one of my favorite speeches,

Starting point is 01:23:56 Hall of Fame, Shannon gave it when he said he believes his brother needs to be in, I don't know if you remember that speech he gave saying, starting sharp needs to be in a Hall of Fame as well. My starting was in tears. But Steven A and you and Skip, that speech he gave saying, starting sharpness to be in a Hall of Fame as well. Right, starting wasn't tears, but Stephen A and you and Skip, what did all these issues start?

Starting point is 01:24:10 Did the issue start with you being on and saying, Max is blacker than you are, Stephen A, because you tweeted out the other day like a month ago, you put it out and Stephen A had to respond to it. What did the issue with you and Stephen A start? I think it started with that comment that I mentioned about Mac Ben, Black and Steve, are seeming to be Black, understanding more Black topics.

Starting point is 01:24:36 And at that time, we were talking about the Colin Kaepernick situation when he was trying to get back in the league. And so he was just, it was just so against what Colin Kaepernick was doing. And so again, at that point in time, I don't know how the flow of the conversation went, but Max was making more sense with the commentary towards that topic.

Starting point is 01:24:58 And that's where I said it tongue in cheek, because if you watched the clip I was laughing and I didn't really think too much of it. And obviously he took offense to to it and then obviously it resurfaced like you said about a month ago and all I did was it was something he mentioned on Joe Buttons he was nothing about why Max he was part of the reason why Max is not on the show he didn't like him he said he was he wrote in his book by the way he broke it on his book and it's about him being oceans apart because he didn't like him, he said he was... He wrote on his book, by the way. He broke it on his book. Something about him being oceans apart

Starting point is 01:25:26 because he wasn't an athlete. And I guess I didn't go to school to be a journalist or what have you, but that doesn't discount a guy's knowledge for anything, information or whatever the topic may be. And so I just basically, and I didn't bring up, I didn't put up the clip. Some fans saw the... You retweeted it.

Starting point is 01:25:43 Right, some, the fans saw the... You retweeted it. Right. Some of the fans saw the podcast and they reacted to his comments. And so I didn't know what happened. I just kept getting alerts. And I was being tagged. And so I just saw it. And I'm like, facts. That's all I said.

Starting point is 01:25:56 And so obviously he took offense to it. And yeah, we went, went, got into a little, a little war of words right there. What did, he asked the question on his rebuttal to you, he says, what does it mean to be blacker? What, what does that mean? What does it mean? Well, it was the topic in which they were discussing.

Starting point is 01:26:13 I said, me being like said, being a black American, like said, me understanding how we talk in the streets and as it relates to whatever talk, whatever topic, it seemed that Max would have been more keen on the culture than he was as far as his, I guess, his responses to whatever topics that we were talking about at that time. And that was what? That was, if I'm not mistaken, that was when,

Starting point is 01:26:41 you know, Capricornick didn't wanna show up unless of the contract or the agreement because what Stephen A. was saying the fact that you would have shown up anytime, any place and you probably would have shown up without a contract, you would have just showed up to see how, you know, whether you, you know, the teams wanted to see because you were confident, like any time,

Starting point is 01:26:58 any place I'll come runner-ups with anybody. Right, but there was something along, there was something added or taken out of the contract that he had to sign this not standard. It wasn't standard For whatever he had to sign and so for whatever reason his mentor Collins speaking his management Collins management team they saw something wrong or saw something kind of fishy with that and they again They changed their mind at the last minute and they went somewhere else That doesn't mean that, you know, again, he can't play or he can't be evaluated the same.

Starting point is 01:27:29 If there was something fishy about it, then yeah, I probably would have taken a different route as well. It doesn't matter. Football fields, they're all the same size, no matter where you go. You think, you think with Kaepernick, you think the NFL was more against him playing, or you think Capernick was his own worst enemy,

Starting point is 01:27:47 because there's two arguments, right? There's these arguments where, you know, guys will sit there and they'll say, you know, dude, if you really want it, don't sign any contract, just come and watch me, okay? I'm not signing nothing, just come watch me play, okay? Forget about the contract, I'm gonna be there here, here's where I'm gonna be, bring your guys,

Starting point is 01:28:04 watch what I got, okay, stop acting like a victim all the time and you know cavernic recently I think came out whether it's in the documentary or book talking about that you know my the family that adopted me you know they injected certain thoughts and all this other stuff and you know some communities are like to at least gave you here's called Cal Cald on CNN, calls out adoptive parents racism as you promote new graphic novel. Well, he was selling, I mean, his white,

Starting point is 01:28:29 the white adoptive parents were white, that adopted him, but the week that people were questioning the timing, because the week that this book was coming out, he was like, oh, by the way, my parents were racist, the white parents showed me racism and how. So for a guy that's played in the league a long time, one of the best to ever do, it's some call maybe the best to ever do it as a receiver.

Starting point is 01:28:52 Do you think it's more the NFL, you know, trying to hurt Kaepernick? Or think Kaepernick is being a victim and getting in his own way? I mean, it could be a little bit of both, but I think it's like, okay, obviously there was a settlement reached with the suit. So obviously there's something there.

Starting point is 01:29:10 But I think I've heard it, I've heard some people say it too. It's like, okay, you've sued the company that you're actually now trying to go back and play for. Yeah, it's kind of weird. It's a weird kind of dynamic, right? So I don't know if that is factoring or playing a part as to why they're not allowing him to play, but you got to understand, you can't sit up here

Starting point is 01:29:34 and say that the guy can't play. And I'm not, if you look at the, I guess the quality of quarterbacks that are in the league now that are playing, for instance, like Zach Wilson Wilson. I mean he was drafted number two pick what a few years ago Clearly you got to think that somebody could go in there and play better than Zach Wilson And I like I actually watched the game last night because I've been rooting for the guy because I'm like man. He has He's shown signs of what he could be as to why he was drafted.

Starting point is 01:30:07 He was a second pick a couple of years ago. And so obviously it's unfortunate for Aaron, but again I'm like okay now this guy's been thrust back on the scene. I think for me it's like God's giving you another opportunity like can you can you seize this moment again like say whatever a doubt or mental struggles he's had over the first two years. Okay, now, okay, you bring in Aaron, okay, you're kind of been humbled a little bit. Okay, now you need to kind of really prioritize

Starting point is 01:30:35 what you need to do to get better. Because clearly this organization has taken vested into you for the pick in which they chose you. And so now he's back on the scene. And obviously, like I said, I've been rooting for the pick in which they chose you. And so now he's back on the scene, and obviously like I said, I've been rooting for the guy to really just come out of this fucking replay like he's capable of playing.

Starting point is 01:30:52 I think when you saw him play against the Kansas City cheese, if you just, if you didn't know who Zach Wilson was and you knew that Aaron Rodgers were supposed to be playing this year and you looked at those passes, if you just saw a clip and you looked at those passes, you would have that Aaron Rodgers were supposed to be playing this year, and you looked at those passes. If you just saw a clip and you looked at those passes, you would have thought Aaron Rodgers was throwing those passes.

Starting point is 01:31:10 He was a stud. Well, he was a stud in that game. It's what he's trying to say. Yeah, he's not saying he was, I was at the game. We were at the game in New York, right? We went to watch him play against the Patriots a couple of weeks ago. Went to the Yankees. Yeah, went to to you forgot already.

Starting point is 01:31:25 Yeah, so we watch them play and I feel what you're saying. He's show signs, but you're saying Kaepernick is better than Zach. I'm saying he can play, he can play, if he can't play worse than Zach. I can play right now given the opportunity. And I'm not just saying that just to be saying it, but I'm telling you, I can play people watching me train, you know, training,

Starting point is 01:31:47 we're gonna, like, I can go out and play right now if I could, if I was given the opportunity to, to play 60, 70 steps, no. Understanding who I am and where I am at age, third down red zone, that's where I would be a viable asset to a team. But we're talking Colin Kaepernick right now. You're trying to tell me his skill set and what he's done and what...

Starting point is 01:32:08 Let's... Whole cares, you can bring up stats as to what his record was when he last played. There are guys that are playing now. You can be equally the same or worse. But I know I feel like he has the ability to play. But again, to your points, like, is he stepping in his own way? I have no idea. Only the ones that the powers to be can answer that.

Starting point is 01:32:27 It's cap of friend of yours, like, do you guys talk regular? No, I've reached out to Capronette Cumpeton. I've seen Cap a couple of times here and there. So it's not like you guys are friends in relationship, buddy, buddy. Then you're all the time. Yeah, I'm not, yeah, I don't have a problem. I got you. I got you.

Starting point is 01:32:40 Okay. I've reached out to him, even when he was on this trail of trying to working out with guys, I had reached out. I even when he was on this trail of trying to working out with guys, I had reached out and even know some people would know. Did he get back to you? No. No. Oh, so you and Cap have never communicated.

Starting point is 01:32:50 No, no. Wait a minute, never, not once. No, no, no. Okay, that's a very interesting because, you know, if somebody would have watched that with you and Steve and A and Max, they would have thought like you guys talk to Colin Wright before and you're his boy and you're defending him and all this.

Starting point is 01:33:07 This is very weird to hear this now. I'm just under, I just understand dynamics of what's going on. And I understand like you said, when you talk about the contract that they said, like there's certain language within that they went in there to amend certain things. But if he's not getting back to you, okay, to you,

Starting point is 01:33:24 you're not out of your mind, but I, to you, you're not even in it. All I'm saying is from an outside, I'm not involved. You don't even need to comment on this. I'm just giving you my, all I'm saying is from an outside or here's a hall of fame fucking receiver that is defending you and you don't wanna even give him, that tells me more about his character if you ask me.

Starting point is 01:33:43 And you don't even see it, I'm telling you, those are my words that I'm saying this, but go back to Stephen A. I like Stephen A. Okay, there's some people that don't like Stephen A, and there's a lot of those, and there's some that like him. What's your biggest challenge with Stephen A? Or if any, if you say, I don't have any challenges with them,

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Starting point is 01:34:57 Clicker tap the banner to find one near you. I don't know if there's a challenge, but I think it's the consensus like for people that have had, I guess, an experience or encounters with him that watch him. I think they've seen a kind of shift in change in his delivery or I guess his objective takes against certain athletes versus other athletes. And I'm pretty sure he'll try to really differentiate why he says certain things about certain guys and or not or he could say he talks about everybody the same. But when it comes to certain athletes,

Starting point is 01:35:39 I think it's a different tone, it's a different energy. And for me, we came across each other I guess some years ago, he's talked very highly of me before. He's defended you on many occasions. Before. And then like I said, I just didn't like the way it came across when he had his obviously podcasts,

Starting point is 01:36:02 obviously millions of viewers and he was holding up, he was holding up, you know, paper like he had his podcast, obviously millions of viewers, and he was holding up, he was holding up paper, like he had documents on me, like he had something on me. And I'm like, and you do that, and you're like, oh, well, I've talked to this guy, I have to, they told me not to do it this night, but I have a lot of stuff on you, and I'm like, like you would think that, like he has something on me. What is it that you have on me that you can't reveal?

Starting point is 01:36:28 Like, and I encouraged him, like, whatever it is, I'm like, if it's not in the court house or in a police precinct, then I'm good. What you had, like, you had classified documents against me, I guess, with something that I've done wrong. And so, that he was gonna, like, he said, he was gonna expose me, that, with something that I've done wrong. And so that he was gonna, like he said, he was gonna expose me, that was his word. He was gonna expose me, expose me for what?

Starting point is 01:36:51 Like I'm a very open and honest guy, I'm an open book, you know? So I got to, even with my dating lights, I'm an open book, I just, I'm hard to read, you know what I mean? So with that, you know, I just, I didn't like that about it. That he felt like, and it made, it insinuated that he had something on me, that he was going to expose something about me that I guess the public didn't know. Like I said, whatever the case may be, and then he insinuated that it was, you know, what there was a money grab situation involved in this because of the suit that my attorney

Starting point is 01:37:24 had filed against ESPN with something that happened on the air. And so he was mad and upset about that. So that's where all kind of resurface or rekindled with that interview with Joe Biden and then when I responded with the retweet when I said facts. The read I get with Stephen A. is the following read. I've spent a little bit of time with him when I was in Connecticut. We did one interview together.

Starting point is 01:37:46 That's the only interaction we've had. And I've just watched him. Again, I've watched you guys more than you've watched us because we're not playing. You're playing. So we watch your game. And I get the feeling from Stephen A that he's a guy that is very proud to be African American, black American, he's very proud, that means a lot to him because that's his family's legacy.

Starting point is 01:38:08 That's the feeling I get from him. But also at the same time, the feeling I get from him deep down inside is the fact that there's an element of, a bit of him being conservative because he was raised conservative and he's got an element of that. And sometimes, you know, bringing those political side

Starting point is 01:38:25 of mindset that he has in it, gets him in trouble because he can't please everybody. And he's a tough place to be. This is why I think he started his podcast so he can freely talk to other people. But, you know, I like that. I actually like that. I like the fact that he's doing that.

Starting point is 01:38:38 I like the fact that he's going out to talking to certain people that's gonna piss off the community and say, wait a minute, are you black or are you not? You know, are you doing this or are you not doing that? But I can see both sides. But now that I'm hearing that you've never had a conversation with Kaplan to get your defending him and he's never gotten back to you.

Starting point is 01:38:56 As somebody that played for the same team that he played for and you played there for years and their history all of that. It's a little bit confusing to me. Yeah. Well, I even reached out and I know some people that were working for him or and you played there for years and their history, all of that. It's a little bit confusing to me. Why have you even reached out? I know some people that were working for him or know could have gotten in touch with him directly got in contact with him

Starting point is 01:39:11 and I've had them reach out to him. And still. And nothing. But I mean, it is what it is. I can't, I can't, I'm not gonna force myself, force my friendship on anybody. But by the way, you know what this does do?

Starting point is 01:39:22 You know what this does do? This validates Stephen A Smith's point. It validates Stephen A Smith's point on who cap on the kids, you know what this does do? You know what this does do? This validates Stephen A Smith's point. It validates Stephen A Smith's point on who cap her into kids. That's what it does to me. I didn't know you were gonna say that. But what you just said about him validates who cappernick really is that even the guys, listen, in your life that if you have people that even want to help you,

Starting point is 01:39:41 and these are guys that are defending you, and it's not just anyway, heavyweight saying this, it just validates Stephen A, maybe what he was trying to say. We're trying to say you. And these are guys that are defending you. And it's not just anyway, heavyweight saying this, it just validates Stephen A. Maybe what he was trying to say. And then, and then, and going back to the Colin Kaplan thing, it's like, I don't understand how, I mean, his, the off the field actions,

Starting point is 01:39:55 your comments, obviously play a role here. When it comes to like the NFL, he compared the NFL combine to modern day slavery, which, and as you know, if you get invited to the combine, white, black, Hispanic, everybody, that's an honor. You know what I mean? A goat there in shine. So he calls that and then it's hypocritical.

Starting point is 01:40:13 Air Rogers goes down. Now you're calling that same league to be like, yo, I want to play with you guys. They're obviously not going to have a good taste in them out there. I mean, like you just called us like, you know, slave owners basically. So then he accuses his white parents of being racist. So I have a question. He's capitalized big time. The race thing with Capronik is huge.

Starting point is 01:40:31 He's made money with Nike. Then he had 40 million from Nike or something like that. Nike Disney. And then the Netflix documentary pat was insane if you actually seen it. So I just want to note, like, when you guys see something like that, you know, do you think that's a genuine cause that he's he doing, or is it basically he's doing it for like a money because the victimhood mentality, there's money in that, bro.

Starting point is 01:40:52 So do you think that played a big role in it? Because I mean, athleticism aside, he's making what, he made at least 40 million. I don't know what they, can you pull out what they, go ahead. Yeah, I don't know what they can you pull out what they go ahead? Yeah, I don't know. Obviously, Nike is obviously paying them. Big time. The documentary, speaking of the,

Starting point is 01:41:14 I'm getting ready to do a documentary that will be sometime probably release some around the start of the football season next year. Oh, no. I'll be doing it with Amazon. Awesome. So what's it about? Just a little bit of everything. You're life, but it's your story.

Starting point is 01:41:29 Yeah, yeah, it's my life. Yeah, I mean, but again, it's not going to be some fluff story. I mean, I'm going to, you know, it's going to depict and show like my imperfections. Some of what we talked about, what I went through. There are some stuff that I haven't talked about, you know, relationship with coaches, kind of how I was treated, by certain coaches, Mary Uchi for one, my time there in San Francisco,

Starting point is 01:41:51 the transitioning from, obviously, Steve Young to Garcia, how I was treated, myself with compared to Garcia, and when my contract negotiations were going on and how he was treated, all those things. And so again, I got a number of coaches, that again, they wanted to be a part of this documentary. And I think a lot now how has changed

Starting point is 01:42:16 when you think about the freedom in which athletes are talking, especially with podcasts. You know, just think if I would have had some of these platforms, I would have been able to dispel or dispute some of the things that were being said about me and how the media portrayed me. Name like said, obviously ESPN was the mainstay. Just with some of the guys that transition from the field to the desk and how I was being characterized

Starting point is 01:42:43 versus other players, those are some of the things that will be revealed. So until you mentioned systemic racism earlier, you spoke in the past with your relationship with Steve Mariuci. You said in regards to him, and I'm gonna quote, it was there talking about systemic racism, but you didn't let it bother you, didn't let it distract you from what you had to do

Starting point is 01:43:03 on the field. You experienced it during and him and under him. You trust me, I've experienced it. Like, can you give any example of what you actually felt that would constitute systemic racism under a coach like that? I mean, I go more in depth once I do the documentary. And then I said, I have coaches, I have players

Starting point is 01:43:23 that were there to kind of witness some of those things. But again, it's just, yeah, it's kind of like how it's treated versus, you know, maybe just say Garcia. I mean, those are some of the things that I saw, like I said, I don't want to give it away here. But once the documentary comes, I like said, I'm, yeah, I'm an open book, bro.

Starting point is 01:43:43 And so again, I have no reason to lie about anything because these are my experiences. And I know for sure, there was a time like I was late for, I remember this particular thing, I was late for practice one day. It was around the time that there, we were announcing the probo votes. For every reason, I overslept and coached at that time, he had this policy

Starting point is 01:44:06 because according to the CBA, depending on however many infractions where they find you, disamount, disamount, disamount, whatever you, but he had one thing about him, he didn't want to take guys' money. So he gave the, if you got fine, like you got fine, or you were late, or whatever the case may be, he didn't want to find you. He gave you an opportunity by the team lunch. And so that was nothing like a few hundred, a few hundred, 800 bucks or something like that. I find, depending on the degree of it, it could be up to like, I think, 35 hundred bucks or whatever.

Starting point is 01:44:37 And so I was late. He didn't ask me, he didn't even ask me why I was late. They always point a coach at the beginning of the year to handle the fines with the guys. So just so happened that year, my coach, my receiver coach, having to be the guy to handle the fines. So we had gone through walkthrough. Like I said, I had missed, I had missed the meeting with that now, it's the probo voting, the guys that made the pro pro, not obviously, I had made the probo that now as the probo voting, the guys that made the probo, and I had made the probo that year.

Starting point is 01:45:07 And so he didn't ask me, you know, coach, okay, George Stewart comes to my locker, he gives me the sheet to find, and he find me, and it was like the maximum. And I'm like, why am I getting fined? I'm like, he didn't even give me the option, is the other guy is the body team lunch. He just fined me to max off the rip.

Starting point is 01:45:29 And I don't even, on that, he didn't even ask me why I was late. I could have been an offender, I could have had a family emergency, anything that could have maybe excused or being a little bit lenient as to the fine. He just fined me right off the bat. And so I looked at it and I told my coaches, I'm not paying this and I literally, I immediately we had a little back hallway

Starting point is 01:45:50 to get up to the coaches office and I went right up to the, I said, I said, Coach, I'm not paying this. And he said, well, you going? So I went and I said, I'm going to his office. And he's like, I'm going with you big dog. So he followed me all the way up the stairs and there was a reception. I was like, is he in the office?

Starting point is 01:46:05 And then she left. So she called and said, you know, said I was out front, she was like sending me in. And I took the paper and I said, I'm not paying this, sorry about that. Tom, you know what's today? No, no! I said, I'm not paying this.

Starting point is 01:46:21 I said, I'm not paying it. And I said, if I have to pay this, I will go out there and I will tell them what I have experienced up to date if I got to pay this fine. And then short after that, resting piece. Who was the coach? He was a coach, but then he ended up being the billwars, billwars being like a consultant.

Starting point is 01:46:46 I went down to Bill Walsh's office and I told him exactly what happened. And he said, don't worry about it, he's like, I'll handle it. And I didn't even know that. Bill Walsh said that too. Yep. And I told him exactly what happened. And there was no reason.

Starting point is 01:46:59 I didn't lie about anything. And I'm like, why would I be fine and he'd give everybody else the option of buying the team lunch? That's the first time you're late. It doesn't matter. Even if it was the second, first, second, and third, at that time, I don't remember. Okay.

Starting point is 01:47:13 To your question, I don't know if it was the first. Because if I'm a coach, it would matter. If you're doing it now to punk me in front of my players and I'm losing credibility, it's very annoying as a coach to go through it. If it is the first time and he's doing that, he's an asshole. But if it's not, you may also try to get under his skin because players know how to do that as well. Well, again, I knew, like at that time,

Starting point is 01:47:31 like media obviously, they comes to the locker and you know, talking about the upcoming game, listening to that and the other. So I just like, look, if I got to pay this friend, I'm literally, I'm gonna tell them, cause I, and I mentioned certain events that had happened that I experienced. I'm gonna say this and I'm going to say this.

Starting point is 01:47:45 And then I again, I went down to coach at that time. He was a coach. So Bill Washington's office and I told him what happened and he even said that it wasn't right and then he said, I'll handle it. I didn't end up having to pay the fine, but that was just one of the incidents that I that I that I witness that I experienced. You know, this world of sports, like I don't know what it is to be in it. I've heard what others say, you know, hey, you're getting paid to play, have fun and joy, where the luckiest people alive, I heard Denzel one time, you know,

Starting point is 01:48:17 said about a couple of the actors were complaining about how tough it is, mental toughness, attention, all this stuff. He's like, he says, what are you talking about? We're the luckiest people alive. We don't have a job. We're acting. We're getting paid to act.

Starting point is 01:48:28 We are the luck. So there is that mindset as well. That's why I asked the question earlier, would limelight pressure performance, personal life, getting out there, doing it, media dividing you against your quarterback? Because media's job is to get that fire within the club, the more controversy,

Starting point is 01:48:43 the more conflict there is, the more stories they have to talk about, the more conflict there's, the more stories they have to talk about, the more viewers they get, the more money the network gets, the more contract they can get, they need you to have a fight within the locker room, the less fights in the locker room, the less money they're making, they wanna be able to see some of that stuff happen.

Starting point is 01:48:57 So if you're in it, how do you handle that? If you're in that world and you're seeing it, I don't know if there's a, you know, who do you trust? You know, do you go talk to one of your college football coaches? But by the way, who was one of your, I think in one of the clips, you said your favorite guy was Andy Reed. Is that you said Andy Reed? Yeah, my favorite coach was a, yeah, the best coach I've ever played for. I mean, what was unique about him with him? What was the relationship like?

Starting point is 01:49:20 Because I think with the talent that I felt like I had and obviously did kind of goes to what you guys were asking me about, you know, do I think I was better than Jerry at some point. I saw the skill set and talent that I possessed and when I went to the Eagles, he saw because we played against him, we played against Andy and I I Performed well against the Eagles which is like one that like during the time that we they're one of the toughest defenses to play against and I Fared pretty well. So obviously when there was a time obviously you know for me to To play get traded and I got in the out of the opportunity to play for him. I had basically got a chance that I think the year before

Starting point is 01:50:04 Playing in a prol because we yeah, because when you lose the NFC championship, the loser coaches the pro-bowl. Like it's a good, a bad thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It felt like a good and a bad thing. But I didn't know that. So you got to think about prior to me going to the Eagles,

Starting point is 01:50:20 they had lost the NFC championship four times, four in a row. And so one of those, one of those years, like I said, the NSE Championship four times, four in a row. So one of those, one of those years, like I said, the year before I got there, obviously I was playing with the Niners, I made the Pro Bowl, so I got a chance to play with that, be coached by that Philadelphia Eagles coaching staff. And so that was the first time I got a chance to play with Donovan and some of the Eagles and obviously he was the coach. And so obviously playing with him,

Starting point is 01:50:46 going to play with the Philadelphia Eagles. Again, he's a student of the, not just a student again, he's an offensive guy. And he saw what I was able to do with that West Coast offense. And if you think about that West Coast lineage and that tree, he's in there with the moochies and the home grinds, he's in there with the moochies and the homegreens. He's in there.

Starting point is 01:51:05 He's good. Right, so he was able to basically put me in the best positions to win and play at the highest level that I felt like I could have played at. Like I told you earlier, nobody knew that I was as fast as I was, especially until I got to Philadelphia then after Philadelphia. Because everything that I did within the offense of San Francisco, post Steve Young, with Jeff Garcia,

Starting point is 01:51:32 it was the short intermediate routes. And then I took it the distance. I wasn't catching a lot of bombs. I wasn't catching a lot of go routes. It wasn't until I got there that people saw, well, he noticed and realized that I could do those things. And so he put me in the bathroom. I played in 21 games and I had 20 touchdowns. Metro links and cross links are reminding everyone to be careful.

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Starting point is 01:52:47 So that I'm that puts it in perspective for you. And so then I went to Dallas again, I had like I played that three years and I know this because people tell me all these tests. I had 38 touchdowns in the three years that I was there. It's almost like 10 a year. So again, it was like I was playing, I was efficient. It's like a shooter. You're performing at it at a high efficiency.

Starting point is 01:53:12 And I was scoring like on a regular. Like it was, I would talk to my friends or on the way, or my mom or my brother on the way to games. I would tell them like how many touchdowns that I felt like I was going to school. Sick. And Donald have been having an arm. Right. And it's rightful. Again. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:53:28 That was the strongest arm quarterback that I had played with. He was the strongest on the quarterback. Yeah. That makes sense. Was he most accurate? No. No. But he put it on that. But he didn't need to be with you. But again, it just shows you the type of quarterback that I played with versus not. Makes it. Tom Andy read. Would you put him is he the best coach right on the NFL?

Starting point is 01:53:48 I think so. I mean, you take a look. You have to hear correctly pointed out, you know, the bill was coaching tree. Shanahan, super balls, read to super balls, homegrown one super bowl. I think right now you look around. He is the last of an important generation. He and probably Bill Belitek, yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah, that generation. And then you have some guys coming up, San Francisco, you get the sun coming up, but I would say

Starting point is 01:54:14 right now, if I was drafting a team right now and could you put your coat back? Could you pick your coach and be him? I would choose Andy Reed. I'm sorry. Wow. Hand on a Bible. I would choose Andy Reed and my coach. And I'm in quarterback right now. Me, my coach. My coach right now.

Starting point is 01:54:32 He also gets along well with a variety of general managers. Yeah. And that chemistry has to be that though. I mean, because, because, look, athletes, there's drama, there's a tension. You need, you need one-on-one attention. You need them to know how important you are. They need to be believed in, you need to know how to challenge them, you need to know how to have tough conversations with them.

Starting point is 01:54:50 How did he balance that with players and coaches and GMS? I don't know, I think it just comes with the sport itself. And then again, how you're groomed, how you're being touched. Yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, those things are very obvious and evident to coaches with his amount of success, especially when you're surrounded with success and you're watching how they go about, you know, coaching and how they're dealing with different players,

Starting point is 01:55:16 different personalities and what have you. He was around that for a number of years because like, yeah, he was at Green Bay. Except that, that, that, Wesh Coast, that, that tree of coaches, and he mentioned a number of years, because like me and him was at Green Bay, except that West Coast, that tree of coaches, and he mentioned a number of them, it's fascinating. Even like I said, even Mary Uchi, all these guys are part of that lineage, it's part of that tree.

Starting point is 01:55:37 But again, like I said, you think about Andy Reed, like, he was like, How did he challenge you? How did he challenge you? Like, did he ever have tough conversations with you? No, because I was a breath of fresh air. I honestly, when I went to the... So, you were a conflict with the two of you guys.

Starting point is 01:55:53 The only issue we had was when I went there, I was used to wearing tights in practice. That's how I watched Jerry do it for a number of years. And so, I adopted, and even the receivers, we adopted, you know, that's how we practice. We practice in our tights. I went there and I went outside the first practice and with my tight, I had black tights on. The equipment guy sent me back in. He's like, oh, get your shorts. And I'm like, what do you mean? I'm like, this is how I practice. And he's like, no, Andy wants you to put shorts on. I'm like, what? So I'm like, in my mind, I'm looking at that picture

Starting point is 01:56:27 and I'm looking at Andy. I'm like, is he jealous of my body? Something like that. Like, why does he want me to go put my, why does he want me to go put short zone? By the way, they don't make tights that size. No, no. Let me tell you how to find it.

Starting point is 01:56:41 So let me tell you a funny, let me tell you a funny special order only. Let me tell you a funny story. The world almost got to see him in a pair of tights. No. Uh oh. So, yes. So, for eight years, that's all I've ever known, like aside from my first couple of years

Starting point is 01:56:59 rookie, what I wore my shorts and training camp, isn't that it. But then I, I saw Jerry do it, like he would wears, Tyson, practice, whatever, warmed up and ran everything. So again, just told you story, they sent me back in to get my shorts. I was hot, I was lowkey mad. I'm like, because it just felt like I was in a, I felt like I was in a good mood. I was in a great situation.

Starting point is 01:57:19 I'm looking to come here and like really like play and you know, help this team get to the Super Bowl. And then it was just like, it was just just that was a damper on my day. So I went in and I put shorts on and I'm looking I was really luktingly putting those shorts on and I went back out. And so we end up having a conversation about the types of he saw. He saw my energy go down. And we talked about it now.

Starting point is 01:57:40 He said you really want to he said you really want to wear it not wear those shorts on. I'm like I said coach. I said, this is what I've known. I said, the greatest receiver of all time, this is how we practice. So this is what I've always known. I'm like, it's not that I just don't feel comfortable. But he said, and he said, let's make a bit. Let's place a little weight on this. And I said, let's make a bit. Let's place a little weight on this.

Starting point is 01:58:05 And I said, cool. And he said, how many touchdowns did you have this the last year with, I don't know. And I think the most touchdowns I think an eagle receiver has had, I think it was like, I think it was, I think it made it 14 or something. I think that's how many I had in San Francisco leaving there. And he said, do you think you'd get 14 here?

Starting point is 01:58:30 I said, yeah, for sure. And he said, no, he said no receivers ever had that many touchdown. And he said, I said, okay, cool. I said, so if I beat that, he said, I can wear my tights. He said, yeah. And I said, if I beat it, I said, you gotta wear some tights. Oh, okay. And so he was like, okay, cool. So it was a bit.

Starting point is 01:58:50 So I left it and what it was. When I got hurt, I was at 14. Oh my God. Get out of here. I was at 14. What a great story. So you know in his mind, he's like, why are you guys doing this story?

Starting point is 01:59:02 He's like, oh no. Well, listen, I'm half of fans. We want to thank you for the like, I love you. I love you. It's like, oh no. Well, listen, on behalf of fans, we wanna thank you for. I spread the world. Yeah. I spread the world. I spread the world. I spread the world.

Starting point is 01:59:11 But honestly, I was so, I was, I didn't think about it too late, but I was living. I'm like, oh, I was at 14. But did he let you wear the tights the rest of the season, or you couldn't do the correct thing? Where's yours?

Starting point is 01:59:22 Yeah, it wasn't much, Dude, I had to wear. Dude, I had to wear. Well, yeah, I'm not sure if you heard. I'm pretty, on pre-game warmups. My wife when I saw you, on pre-game warmups, and I said, take a look at that. How if you're a corner, do you not say to yourself, that is a human being, I gotta come.

Starting point is 01:59:38 Yeah, forget it. That's the San Francisco you're saying. Yeah, we will see it. I've heard so many stories of me work, because that was my routine. That's probably the PG-13 story. Yeah, we see. I've heard so many stories of me work, because that was my routine. That's probably the PG 13 story. There's probably some rated art stories. No, no, no, no, I don't have it.

Starting point is 01:59:49 I mean, that was just like my, my, this is like my pregame routine. I got it. And then obviously, like I said, there are some women reporters that I've come across. Like I said, there was the all white that I had, I had, uh, uh, uh, that I had worn. That became a topic of discussion with a lot of people.

Starting point is 02:00:04 But for me, all whites, let's see what's all white. But I didn't know that you're question of discussing with a lot of people, but me. Well, up to all wives, let's see what's going on. I didn't, but I didn't know. As your question, I didn't know anything about it. This pregame, did this pregame include casually running past defense stretch? I would watch where you, you would have routes all over the open field. Oh, yeah, so I, yeah, so I'm sure they can see our free ounce of what they got to defend. Right.

Starting point is 02:00:26 Always ran or always took a full lap around the field. Always a full lap around the field. And the defense is stretching in the end zone and you're just cruising. Yeah. And I've heard, I've heard some players that's like, oh my god. I've heard, I've heard some coaches, you know, go to their DB. They look, that's what y'all got to come. That's a good tactic.

Starting point is 02:00:44 That's good. By the way, shout out to Andy Reed. He was an offensive tackle at Glendale Community College time. Did you know that? I did. He was an offensive tackle at the GCC. Anyway, so he wasn't tight. So he wasn't tight. Wow.

Starting point is 02:00:56 Listen, long time ago, that's what, look at it right there. He was a, he played for BYU, but before BYU, he was a GCC as an offensive tackle. Tio, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on. Gang, if you're watching this, we have the winner. The person I'd ask the question, answer the question. The question was what Rob? The question was, Who was Tara, I'm sorry, Tara Owens is favorite QB.

Starting point is 02:01:20 Yes, during his career, the options were Steve Young, Jeff Garcia, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Donovan McNabb, or Tony Romo. The answer is, Ryan Fitzpatrick, which was guessed correctly by Paul Galushkin. Paul Galushkin's a good guy. Paul. Paul. That's right.

Starting point is 02:01:37 That's my boy. He's a good guy and good for you, Paul. You're going to be getting this Paul Sendover. You're going to be able to buy the one for those of you guys that are watching this. And you have questions for Tio. You want to ask him questions about career. Maybe you got kids that go into college. Maybe you want to ask him about, you know,

Starting point is 02:01:50 you're in the game. You want to ask him questions, financial contracts, Lloyd, whatever it may be. Any kind of questions you have. You can ask those questions of Tio on Menecd. Rob, if you can put the link below for Menecd. And then on top of that last but not least, Tio, do you mind telling us about these candles before we wrap up?

Starting point is 02:02:05 Yeah, so earlier, I talked about like, which I call my three pillars of success, which are my three D's, desired dedication and discipline. So I designated so all the scents are dedicated to these candles. So there is a scent for desire, there's a scent for dedication, and there's a scent for discipline.

Starting point is 02:02:22 And then there's a fourth one that I added. I have five, but the fourth one that I added was during the pandemic. Everybody was shifting and pivoting and doing things. And so I got in the wine space. And so I have a wine under the Tom and Lassorda, Lassorda family wines label, which is called 81. And so the ingredients with that,

Starting point is 02:02:39 it has cockadoo plum and some other things in it. And so we had, so we made a wine pairing candle to pair with the wine. And so obviously like I said, with the candles, with desire, so I was very instrumental with my partner, business partner, Carolyn Taylor. She had an existing company and she knew everybody that knows me personally.

Starting point is 02:03:02 They know that I like home decor. I love fashion, which is part of why I got into the clothing and she knew everybody that knows me personally, they know that I like home decor, I love fashion, which is part of why I got into the clothing line business as well as my mom, she was the seamstress growing up. But as it relates to the candles, everywhere that I've been always had bought candles. It was just like just an accessory.

Starting point is 02:03:21 And then like that, you like to have your house smell inviting, especially when you have guests and all those things. So she asked me what I wanna be a partner in and I'm like, sure. So we came up with loft 81 home, obviously the brand. And then with these candles, we started out with desire, which is made up of a cashmere vanilla,

Starting point is 02:03:41 a dark lab denim rose and a saffron tobacco. That saffron tobacco. That saffron. Come on, Middle Eastern, so we love that. That's right. Right, so that's desire. So I wanted something obviously, that smells sexy.

Starting point is 02:03:55 I mean, that's not overpiring this light. And so when you think about the Casimir Vanilla, it kind of softens some of those ingredients up. And then dedication is made up of sage and lavender, the same dark lapdatinum rose, and then rose by chule in ember. Well, listen, the way you said it, bro, I wanna order a kiss.

Starting point is 02:04:17 I like the candle scientist. I like all of it. That's right. And so the candles are made with intention. Everything is about intention. That's cool. About intention is about mindset. So everything about intention. It's about mindset. So everything that I've done, like I said,

Starting point is 02:04:26 there's, like I said, it infuses the desire and the dedication and the discipline in it. And so, even with the box, with the box, you see here, I was very instrumental with the texture. You got the embossed logo here, and then this little tab right here says, pull with intent. So again, obviously, you can use theseossed logo here, and then this little tab right here says pull within 10. So again, obviously you can use these candles,

Starting point is 02:04:47 the boxes as well, once the candles are burned. But yeah, that's pretty much how I got involved with it. And like I said, we want to sell a lot more candles. We want to obviously get in some retail stores that would have you. We got getting it simple, it's implicit. And then the last one is discipline. Discipline is like, you know, kind of the mindset,

Starting point is 02:05:11 you burn this candle when you want to, you know, get in a mindset if you want to just go to the gym and you want to just meditate or just kind of just get deep in your thoughts. Like for me, I just think about like my off season training. If I'm just like, once I started training in April of every off season, whatever I was doing within the months of my last game up until April, I just kind of just let myself go, kind of gave myself kind of chance to just

Starting point is 02:05:37 rewind, unwind, let my body healed. But soon as April hit that first week in April, I was back on grind. Yeah, I was backing on grind mode. Nothing, nothing, nothing else mattered, but preparing myself for the upcoming season. So, so desire, it's made up of a, I mean, a discipline, it's made up of a, a Mary Gold and a Cedar musk and then a Woody, a Woody leather and brandy. Brother, I've never met anybody. This, this detailed with candles, we officially, I've never met anybody. This detailed with candles.

Starting point is 02:06:06 We officially, I'm telling you, he's got a nickname. Mr. T.O., you may have a lot of nicknames you're the candle scientist. Place in order for candles. If you're a candle's person, I got a candle on my office upstairs. I got to go replace it with one of these now. Loft81Home.com.

Starting point is 02:06:19 Loft81Home.com. The link's gonna be below as well. Gang, T.O. again. One, can I do one more? Go for it. Cause this is link's gonna be below as well. Gang, Tio again. One, can I do one more? Go for it. Cause this is for my grandma. Go for it. We, every month, we're not every month,

Starting point is 02:06:32 but in June and November, it's Alzheimer's, mental health and Alzheimer's awareness month. In June, it's mental health, but in November, it's Alzheimer's awareness month. And so my grandma passed in 2012 to Alzheimer's in November, it's Alzheimer's awareness month. And so my grandma passed in 2012 to Alzheimer's. In 2000, I spoke before Congress to help with obviously bringing awareness and obviously increased funding for the disease. And so we partnered with Alzheimer's Association.

Starting point is 02:06:59 So we have a candle. I have a candle dedicated to my grandma. Because remember, I told you she was she was very very strict So this candle respect, yeah, it's called tough love So if it's in a purple the the month it's not one of those but one of those so the month is purple, you know how breast cancer is pink or whatever so we're using up. We got a purple vase for for the candle Yeah, so if you yep, you go to loft 81 home, you obviously, you're a suspect.

Starting point is 02:07:27 Respect for that. So tough love. So in tough love, to come up with the scent with that, I came up with something that obviously that made me think about like a grandma, which is like dried floral and incense, something along those nature. So when I grew up, when you think grandma,

Starting point is 02:07:45 you think floral or something, blah, blah, blah. So that's what we have it. And then the cashmere plum kind of softens it up a little bit. So honestly, this is probably the one that has the most potent throw. Well, when I think about grandma, I think about Bill Withers, the song Grandma's Hands. I don't know if you know that song, but it's an old school hand.

Starting point is 02:08:04 Okay. T.O. Blast, having with you here and having you on the podcast, where I'll put all those links below. Gang, have a great day. We'll do this again tomorrow, 2.30 live. Take care everybody. Bye-bye. Yn yw'n gweld. Yn yw'n gweld. Yn yw'n gweld. Yn yw'n gweld.

Starting point is 02:08:28 Yn yw'n gweld. Yn yw'n gweld. Yn yw'n gweld. Yn yw'n gweld. Yn yw'n gweld. Yn yw'n gweld. Yn yw'n gweld. Yn yw'n gweld.

Starting point is 02:08:44 Yn yw'n gweld. Yn yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw you

PBD Podcast - Terrell Owens | PBD Podcast | Ep. 323

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