PBD Podcast - The TRUTH About Jeffrey Epstein w/ Whitney Webb | PBD Podcast | Ep. 198

Episode Date: October 28, 2022

In this episode, Patrick Bet-David is joined by Whitney Webb, Vincent Oshana & Adam Sosnick. PBD Podcast Episode 198.  Whitney Webb has been a professional writer, researcher and journalist since 2016. She has written for several websites and, from 2017 to 2020, was a staff writer and senior investigative reporter for Mint Press News. She currently writes for The Last American Vagabond. Investigative Reports. . . . FaceTime or Ask Patrick any questions on https://minnect.com/ Want to get clear on your next 5 business moves? https://valuetainment.com/academy/ Visit Whitney Webb's website Unlimited Hangout: https://bit.ly/3zgyjdB Buy One Nation Under Blackmail VOL 1: https://amzn.to/3Flzxbv Buy One Nation Under Blackmail VOL 2: https://amzn.to/3NaFQR0 Join the channel to get exclusive access to perks: https://bit.ly/3Q9rSQL Download the podcasts on all your favorite platforms https://bit.ly/3sFAW4N Text: PODCAST to 310.340.1132 to get added to the distribution list Patrick Bet-David is the founder and CEO of Valuetainment Media. He is the author of the #1 Wall Street Journal bestseller Your Next Five Moves (Simon & Schuster) and a father of 2 boys and 2 girls. He currently resides in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/pbdpodcast/support

I feel I'm so sick, I can take sweet victory. I know this life meant for me. Yeah, why would you plan on the life when we got bett David? Value came in, giving values, contagiousness, world, our entrepreneur's, we can't no value that hate is. I ain't running home, you look what I've become. I'm the underdog. Listen, episode 198, we're two away from 200.

If you're listening to this, one thing about our podcast, man, I gotta tell you guys, one day we're talking business, one day we're talking politics, one day we're talking economy, one day we're talking interest rates, one day it's like, and today we're talking Epstein and an author who Whitney Webb wrote two books called

One Nation Under Black Male. She did so much investigative journalism on this topic that she had to do a volume one and a volume two. The first one is between the intelligence and crime that gave rise to Jeffrey Epstein. And the second one is around how organized crime gave rise to Jeffrey Epstein. the second one is around how organized crime gave rise to Jeffrey Epstein.

This goes back to Mossad. We're going to talk about Jelaine Maxwell's father, Robert Maxwell, who is a very, very interesting character himself. I think he came from a family of nine and I think he had nine kids or seven kids and I think the last kid he had was Jelaine. We got a lot of things to be talking about. Her background, again, outside of that as an investigative journalist, she does, she's an American writer, a researcher covering intelligence,

tech surveillance and civil liberties for the podcast, unlimited hangout. Whitney's also staff writer for Mint Press News and contributor to Ben Swans website truth in media. Having said that with me, thank you so much for being a guest here. Hey, thanks for having me. It's good to have you on. Yeah, I'm really happy to be here. If I could just correct the bio really quick though,

I used to work for Met Press. I still contribute there and I write for my own site now. Got it. So you used to work, you just contribute. You don't work there anymore. Okay, I mean, that's important to say. So the audience knows it. The great people though, I like the team that Met Press News at all, but. You don't want her anymore. Okay, I mean, that's important to say. So the audience knows it. The great people though, I like the team that meant press news that all don't, but.

You don't want to tweet out today saying, Patrick Bay David's saying, Whitney is still a writer with us. And I feel like the intention of this entire episode today is setting the record straight on a multiple level of topics. Well, I mean, the whole thing is, like some of the stuff we're gonna talk about today guys

I mean if you just praise for impact. It's gonna be weird. It's gonna be deep It's gonna be if you're already into this and you've already been following it for yourself You're gonna say okay, I know a lot about this and I've been looking forward to this podcast great If you don't you don't follow this you're driving in your car Maybe if you used to go on 85 go 72 You know if you're you know at work and you got your employees around maybe if you used to go in 85, go 72, you know, if you're at work and you got your employees around you and you got like a deadline today,

maybe don't listen to this at a 2.0 speed, listen to this at 1.25, slow down a little bit, because we're gonna talk about a lot of different things. So just an opening thing, there's a lot of things a person can do investigative journalism on. You can do stuff on JFK assassination, you can do stuff on JFK assassination. You can do stuff on many different things.

What got you turned on about wanting to learn about what's going on with Epstein? Well, it was actually when Alex Acosta, who was Secretary of Labor under Trump, he was quoted by a Vicky Ward and some other people as saying that the reason he backed off on Epstein was because Epstein, he was told that Epstein belonged to intelligence. So I originally wasn't planning to write about the case because I tend to focus more on

under reported stories. And there was a lot of buzz around Epstein after his arrest at that time. But once the intelligence angle came up, it was kind of like, well, I'd like to see, you know, where that leads. Because even when that acknowledgement came out, there wasn't a lot of interest. At least it seemed to me anyway in mainstream media and getting really to the bottom of what that means that he belonged to intelligence.

What does that mean belongs to intelligence? It could mean a lot of things, right? He could either have been an intelligence asset. He could have been an agent, also, which intelligence agency are we talking about, right? So it was kind of an open question. But, you know, once you get that type of acknowledgement about someone as controversial as Epstein, you know, a lot of things start to move to sort of protect the people who

would have been his handlers. When did you first hear his name and when did the general population out there start here to his name? Because I don't think I heard his name until 2018, is am I yeah what's my numbers right when you're 2019 was the arrest and I'd heard of him you know before because he was arrested you know previously in around what 2006 2007 So his name was around because you know even then people knew of the association with people like Bill Clinton and Trump and a lot of you know Very powerful and influential people He's been talked about for a while.

It's not a new thing. He's been talked about. But as far as a lot more extensive, 20 years came for sure. The average person hearing Epstein's name is in the last handful of years. Couple of years. Absolutely.

That's a good question, right? So maybe from this perspective, what does the average person in your eyes since you've been doing a lot of due diligence and research on this? What does the average person think they know about Epstein? And maybe we can get into what are some things we don't know that we should definitely know?

All right, so as far as I see it, the narrative about Jeffrey Epstein that I think most people have absorbed because it's been the mainstream media coverage, they focus pretty specifically on what he was doing from 2000 to about 2006 or so and only on the sex crimes. And beyond that, it, you know, maybe a handful of outlets have talked about things, maybe in the 90s, maybe things after his first arrest, what he did between that time and his second arrest, but really beyond that, it's a very narrow focus,

in my opinion, because this is a guy that really entered the workforce, I guess you could say, sometime in the 70s. And he was visiting the Clinton White House in the 90s, and there's been very little interest, especially in American mainstream media and talking about that particular period of time and Jeffrey Epstein's career.

Actually, UK media, like the Daily Mail and outlets like that have been much more focused on those aspects of the Epstein case in American mainstream media. And that's pretty telling because Bill Clinton's an American former American president, not a former British prime minister. So, you know, why the lack of focus? The Daily Beast has also talked a little bit about that, but as far as I know, that's, you know, pretty much it.

So, let's get into it. So for, again, like you said, a lot of people they know about what happened, some of the sex scandals in the earlier years, great. We know about that, we've seen that, but going all the way back to how he got started in the 70s, the influence he had. There's gotta be people that either trained him

to do what he did in the 90s, 2000 or infrooms, then negatively and taught him some bad habits. A lot of times in business will bring an agent that comes from another company, that company, if they do forgeries, because that guy learned some of those habits at a different company before they brought it in. How did you learn how to do this? When I used to do mortgage, it was called creative financing. Oh my God, we don't do that. That's not the right way of doing business. So how do you yourself, when you look at somebody like this, someone must have taught them these bad habits? Right.

So it looks to me that it was somewhere around the time he went to Bear Stearns, which was his first really entry into the financial world. Because as I just mentioned earlier, most people think of Epstein as a sex criminal based on my research, he's just as much a financial criminal as a sex criminal. But in the book, I try and go even further back to that in pursuit of, you know, where this intelligence tie may have originally started. And, you know, he was apparently

had a British rural family connection as early as the early 70s, like 1971 when he was, you know, in his 20s. You know, he was supposed to be backpacking in Europe. There's some weird mystique around that particular trip that I know in the book. But after that, he went to the Dalton School, which I think some people that looked into the case, you know, after his second arrest are probably familiar with because the man that hired him there, who is the headmaster of Dalton at the time, was William Barr's father, Donald Barr. And a friend.

Bill Barr is in the former. The two-time attorney general, right. Yes, and his father was a former veteran of the Office of Strategic Services, which is a precursor to the CIA. And then he went to Columbia and was sort of a talent scout, I guess, in a sense, because he ran a lot of programs that Columbia focusing on talented high schoolers.

And it's very possible that Epstein was a very gifted high schooler in the New York area. He graduated high school very young. He went to the interlocking Academy of Arts and was a very talented teenager, so it's very possible. He may have met Donald Barr that way, but Donald Barr, for whatever reason, hires him to go to the Dalton School and according to former students,

quoted by the New York Times, he showed a weird interest in partying with underage kids, even then, and wanted to drink and some claim they hit on him and all this stuff. And other people said that was normal at the Dalton School and all of that. And the reason for him leaving isn't quite clear

but he was sort of headhunted there by Alan Greenberg of Bear Stearns and went and joined that particular bank and Alan Greenberg just a couple of years after he brought Epstein into Bear Stearns became the head of Bear Stearns. So Epstein was sort of from what I understand, his mentor was basically Greenberg, and Greenberg goes to the top of the bank. And so obviously that helps Epstein's career.

He climbs a lot or pretty rapidly there, and then starts working with some of their elite clientel, the identities of which we don't exactly know. But based on the circumstances under which he left, it was related to an SEC investigation, focusing on insider trading of the Bronfman, family company, C Grums, I believe. Yeah, so it seems like Edgar Bronfman, he may have been involved in advising him on some things, and what he was apparently well known for and talented in at Bearsterns was advising

people about tax law. So there may have been some sort of tax evasion stuff or something. I mean, he left under rather murky circumstances and there's a lot of differing opinions coming out of there, but in looking at the particular secrets inside of trading stuff and that the SEC was tipped off that Epstein knew something about it and Epstein leaves. So there's no blowback for the bank because at this point, right, his mentors, the head of the bank that could obviously have impacts all the way up at Bear Stearns, right?

And another thing that's interesting is just a couple around that same time, the person who had been the legal counsel for Bear Stearns, most of the time that Epstein was working for that bank became CIA director under Reagan, Bill Casey. So these links, by the way, if you go on Donald Barr, because we went through that very quickly, Bill Barr's father, Donald Barr, OK, so that's Donald Barr. When he was at Dalton, just to kind of put perspective, put into perspective for the audience,

how big of a deal is this school Dalton? Well, from what I understand, it's kind of one of, I'm not from New York City, and I've never been there. So I don't have an insider understanding necessarily of that. But from what I understand, a lot of, you know, elite wealthy people. Went to school. So their children there, yeah. Mm-hmm.

And when he hired Epstein to become a professor teaching mathematics, this is a guy that's never had a degree before, right? Like Epstein never got a degree. No, he would have not been eligible as I understand it, to even teach in public school in New York. How does that make any sense for him to get a job? Well, right. Even though he's never had a degree before.

Right, right. So Donald Barr apparently hired unconventional teachers and was known for this, right? But he actually left by the time Epstein started. Hiring decisions were apparently made in the spring in that summer Donald Barr left after having made those hiring decisions. So during most of Epstein's time there, it was another headmaster.

And from what I understand, Donald Barz, him leaving, the Dalton School was rather acrimonious. Like he was sort of forced out, it seems, by angry parents and some angry teachers. Yeah, so apparently he was there to what? Summer of 94 is when I'm, your force to me to do so much research It's not even funny. I think it's like 74 74 and then Epstein started working months prior to that right like in 73 teaching physics

Teaching physics and you don't have a four-year degree That's that's that's incredibly weird to me. No, it's weird that he was hired considering that he couldn't even have taught it public Yeah, is this Epstein or Bill Barr's father? We're talking about so so well Who is teaching no no don't don't don't know bar hired Epstein got it But Epstein didn't have a four-year degree to teach anything Even if you didn't graduate from undergraduate. Yeah, so so just think about and then by the way the one thing That's also pretty weird with this whole connection is Donald Barr wrote a book.

Space relations. Yes, space relations. A public, published a science fiction novel that contained several prominent references to and descriptions of rape and sexual slavery. And sex slavery, that's true. And that was published shortly after he left the Dalton School. So there's a

weird mix here, right? But I mean, you can't make any direct connection necessarily, but given everything else we're talking about, about Epstein intelligence, the sex crimes, all of that, it starts to look kind of, you know, weird, you know, this far back, but, you know, obviously over time it gets. Can you, can you do me favor and just pull up the follow-on, pull up the text that just sent you. The only reason I'm showing this is because I know the folks at YouTube value snopes because they want things to be looked at and you know how if you can pull that up. But while you're doing that the the strange part of the story is the fact that the person

that ends up putting Epstein in jail is Donald Barr son William Barr. Well at this exact time, when Donald Barr is high as Jeffrey Epstein, and all of this is going on at the Dalton School, William Barr is already at the CIA. William Barr is already at the CIA. Mm-hmm, that's where he started his career pretty much. In 73, 74, while that.

I would think it was after. Well, so Epstein, I think it started in 74. So as I mentioned earlier, Donald Barr made hiring decisions in the spring, leaves that summer, and then Epstein starts that fall semester and in the same period of time William Bartz already associated with the CIA. Yeah, so for the folks at YouTube and others, your snopes. Okay, so we were we're fact checking this. Did Bill Barr's father mentor Jeffrey Epstein and write a bizarre novel? Okay, so if I can comment on that, we're not talking, I didn't say anything right now. We haven't said anything about there being a mentor relationship.

Yeah, it was a hiring decision. Right. So a lot of times with these fact check sites, they'll put in like, oh, there was no mentor relationship and then they debunked the whole thing, but Donald Bargid, right, a bizarre novel. Yeah, and he did hire Jeffrey Epstein. Can you pull up a little bit? No, sorry. Hang on, but let's see what these guys are saying, because these guys, it's,

people follow these guys, mostly false. So go up, go up, go up, go up, go up, go up. So, okay, at the top, let me read that one first. A claim, Donald Barr, father of US general, Bill Barr, hire Jeffrey Epstein as a teacher, served as a mentor, and wrote a novel about men raping teenage girls. Okay, go to the bottom, mostly false. What's true, Donald Barr was headmaster of Dalton School

in New York until the summer of 74 and 74. Epstein began working as a math and physics professor at the school in 1973, Barr published a science fiction novel that contained several prominent references to and the Scrimshub's rape and sexual slavery. What's false is, Dalton is not an all-girl school and was not so when Epstein worked

there, the claim that Barr was Epstein's mentor appears to be more than an idol. Speculations unsupported by evidence, Barr's novel does not celebrate slavery or sexual violence against underage girls, and in one instance, the protagonist, brutal murders, another character to avenge the rape of a teenage girl. Right. So, I wasn't familiar with the date of the publication of the book, but I knew it was around the ballpark, you know, the same time that he's on, you know, hiring Epstein, so I didn't know it was earlier, but I've never heard the claim that it was an all-girl

school as far as I understand it was at this time. I mean, who would want to write a book like that? Both genders. But, I mean, so I haven't read the book. I've only read parts of it. But from what I understand, there is like a sex slavery thing, but not necessarily for like minors, right? But it is an odd book to be sure.

Whitney, I know we're gonna go a bunch of different directions, but what I wanna sort of hunker down on is, what's the importance of this narrative that we're creating right now? Or not that we're creating that we're discussing with Bill Barr's father, Donald Barr, Epstein, what's the importance of this narrative that we're creating right now or not that we're creating that we're discussing with Bill Barr's father, Donald Barr, Epstein, what's the importance of this? More broadly, I would say this is the beginning of several other examples in Epstein's

career where it seems like he has a meteoric rise that would otherwise have been unavailable to him if it weren't for some sort of connections that he possess. He's stepping into some sort of support network that protects him, not just through his financial criminality, but his sex criminality because remember, he was doing this for a long time, including the sex crimes and nothing happened to him. You have someone like in January 2020, you have Cindy McCain, John McCain's wife coming out and say, we all knew what Epstein was doing. I mean, and there's no direct John McCain, McCain Epstein connection that I've seen.

So this means, you know, in the US Senate, it's known what he's doing and nothing happens to him. You don't operate like that and abuse thousands of girls and get away with all of this stuff if you don't have someone behind you, right? So this is just a case example, sort of an initial case example of like this sort of meteoric rise.

He shouldn't have been teaching. It's social climbing. How does this happen? There's something behind the scenes here. And this is sort of the first sort of that. Yeah, he wasn't even qualified to teach public school, right? So he's teaching at one of the most elite, you know,

schools in New York. And it's kind of odd that he did the math. This was in 1973. He was born in 1953, give or take. So he's college age, give or take at this point. Yeah, I believe so. Mm-hmm. But he didn't graduate from college, right?

So it's just unusual that he'd be in that circumstance at this elite school. And then it's, again, unusual that one of the top guys at Bear's Turns would be like, come work for my bank. Guy that hasn't graduated from college and all this stuff. And it's supposedly because he mentored his daughter or his son, I think. I mean, there's a lot of discrepancies

because the daughter was like, no, nothing to do with me and then other people were like, yes, and no one wants to say they had any association with him. It's a very basic question because we can go, you know, laundry list of the nasty crazy things he's done, but very simply, was he a very smart guy?

Like as far as like anyone who around him is like, oh, he's really smart. That guy knows what he's done, but very simply, was he a very smart guy? Like as far as like anyone who around him was like, oh, he's really smart. That guy knows what he's doing. As far as just basic IQ and basic, you know, education. Well, you've had a mix of responses right and since he became infamous of people being like, yeah, he was really smart and then other people being like, no, he was just a schmusser and charismatic

and that was it. And he just bamboozled people. And I think the latter sort of people trying to go back and rewrite history to an extent. I think he was very good at it. I mean, obviously he graduated from high school really young, but I think his real, you know, knack for stuff had to do with his, you know,

financial abilities. Let me just put it to this way. You're not gonna get away for this long if you're not smart or even there's a better word for it. Not cunning. It's conniving where you can get away with manipulating people for this long. Yeah. There's brilliance there.

He had a skill set that made people a lot of money, a lot of money. And that's part of why he got away with this for so long. So the skill set you're talking about is sex blackmail. Is that what you're talking about? I think that's part of money. And that's part of why he got away with this for so long. So, the skills that you're talking about is sex blackmail? Is that what you're talking about? I think that's part of it, but as far as it comes to Jeffery Epstein, it looks like that sex black male angle didn't really start until the early 90s. And this is a person we're talking about Epstein in the 70s right now, then there's the whole question mark of the 1980s in Jeffery Epstein. And I would say that, like I mentioned earlier, the financial crime angle is just as important

as the sex crime angle with Epstein and it's also the least explored when you're talking about this guy. So what do we not know? What do we not know about the 80s? Okay, so he leaves Bear Stearns. I sort of mentioned there was an insider trading investigation, all of that.

And then Epstein goes on to claim that he's a financial bounty hunter. That's his term for it. And there's numerous quotes in mainstream media of people that knew Epstein that were told during this period that he was a person who claimed to find or hide money for powerful people. So he's either finding money that was looted

or he's helping people hide looted money. So right there, you know that he's involved in some sort of financial gray area and that he has a very good working knowledge of the offshore banking system. I mean, that we can deduce from that, right? I think that's pretty. So how does that help him? So it's a financial bounty.

Okay, I get that. But the bounty people I know, they're messing. He calls himself a bounty hunter, a financial bounty hunter. That's his term. He's used that terminology before your side. Yeah. Yeah. This is in mainstream media. Yeah.

A financial bounty hunter. There's only a handful of ways you're able to get that. But either way, whether you're helping people find money that was stolen or helping people hide their stolen money, you know where that money goes. And this, you know, the Lamberenth of where that money is hidden, you know it better than anyone, and that's why people go to you. So the blackmail part is the creative one. So in the insurance industry, there's something called premium financing. In premium financing cases pay a lot of commissions. We're talking five, you know, 10 million dollars of commissions. One guy is doing a premium financing case with a big billionaire guy, and I'm not to tell the story of who's who, but he takes the client away from the competitor.

So the competitor who was about to close this case is going to get paid five something million dollars is upset and says, you got to give this client to me because it's mine. The other guy's like, I'm not going to take the client. I'm not going to give the client. He says, no problem. He has three people that work for him, all dropped at gorgeous girls. They go and investigate because a lot of times, these successful people, they eat at the same place, they sit at the same place, so it's easy to find them. He goes, creates an environment where the girl is the same script. She's going through

a husband beating all this stuff and she says, I'm so sorry, sits at the same place at the bar, eventually invites him back to his room, her room. They go upstairs, they do what they do. He leaves the videotapes, the insurance guy sends to the other guy, says, if you don't give me a client back, this is going to your wife, to your clients, to your employees, to everybody. So this is something as weird as it sounds. This is not a abnormal thing. This goes on quite often. Yeah, in these circles specifically. So no, no in what you know, when you call yourself a financial bounty hunter, have you been able to investigate and see what his methods were to get the money back? Unfortunately, it's

super murky. There's very little we do know, but for what we do know, it is pretty interesting. So it seems like Epstein during this period had some sort of relationship with a bank notice, a bank of credit and commerce international BCC. According to the BCCI report, which is a US Senate report, BCCI was involved in sex trafficking of minors. Apparently for VIPs and other people, whatever that means, I don't know, but some of them were pre-pubescent. And this is coming straight from the Senate report, right? Very under explored aspect of this case. At the more you look at BCI, it seems like, you know, it was nominally a bank, a development bank, but really it's, um, to me, sort of more like a private, was a private intelligence

apparatus, sort of masquerading as a bank, a lot of intelligence involvement from the beginning, apparently Pakistani intelligence, but there was also, you know, reports in news week, going decades back, of course, because BCCI imploded in 1991, saying that the CIA had some sort of role in creating BCCI and was very involved in money laundering and all other sorts of stuff, this particular bank. And Stephen Hoffenberg, who was a mentor to Jeffrey Epstein at some point, later in the 1980s, has said that Jeffrey Epstein had a relationship with this bank. And we know from people like Vicki Ward, for example, that during this financial bounty hunter phase,

one of Epstein's main clients was Adnan Kishoggi, the arms dealer, who had a relationship with many intelligence agents. Kishoggi as in Jamal Kishoggi, the journalist. They're related. Yeah. Crazy how this world above. Oh yeah, I mean, these, it leads very nuts.

Yeah, but I don't know if I necessarily, you know, I'm qualified to talk about the Jamal Kishok case, but yeah, but just these names that keep popping up. Bill Barr, what does he have to do with this? Yeah, journalist Clinton dropped this. Well, the intelligence thing being confirmed from someone like Alex Acosta, he was told Epstein belong to intelligence and you're talking about all these names. They have all these different intelligence affiliations. It starts to become clear.

There's something much deeper to the Epstein case that mainstream media is not interested in touching at all. But anyway, Adnan Kishoggi during this period in the 1980s, one of his main banks was also BCCI. And this is the same time when Adnan Kishoggi starts to put a lot of this stuff that later becomes known as Iran Contra into motion, which also involves, of course, drug trafficking, money laundering, arms trafficking.

It's a very complex. Which Pat is very familiar with the Iran Contra affair. Okay, so let's keep going back to the 80s. Is that pretty much all we know about what happened with them in the 80s? With the financial bounty hunter stuff. Well, the other thing is too, right? So, you know, Bill Casey had this relationship with Bear Stearns, he CIA director, Epstein Leaves, and then he teams up with someone like Adnan Kishogi, and then around the same time, two other people take on Adnan Kishogi as clients, Robert Keith Gray, who worked on very closely with Bill Casey on the

Reagan campaign in Roy Cohn, the lawyer, who also worked very closely with Bill Casey on the Reagan campaign in Roy Cohn, the lawyer who also worked very closely with Bill Casey on the Reagan campaign. And as I note in volume one of my book, both of those men have very extensive ties to sexual blackmail. Roy Cohn does. Yeah, oh yeah. Totally.

Roy Cohn was a lawyer for a lot of mobsters, for many mobsters. And yes. And many powerful people in New York. He was the guy you got when you needed somebody to take care of you. Now, is Roy Cohen's story at all linked to Jayet Groover or no?

Is there any connection between the two? Yeah, I mean, I write about it pretty extensively. They were very close. And even Roy Cohen's probably one of his best known biographers, Nicholas Von Hoffman, that wrote Citizen Cone, just couldn't really even explain why the official story of J. Edgar Hoover and Roy Cone's meeting,

he just found it very odd because it was so uncommon at that time for someone to just waltz in to J. Edgar Hoover's office and have that kind of access to him right away. But there's been several authors and, well, I document this all in the volume pretty extensively, that point to there having been some sort of relationship previously that they had met previously through some sort of weird sexual, it seems to have been a sexual blackmail operation and Roy Cohn later apparently admitted this to an NYPD.

Detective, there was some sort of sexual black male thing going on that entrapped J Edgar Hoover and Roy Cohn participated not necessarily in entrapping J Edgar Hoover but they had these sex parties, right? And so J Edgar Hoover was seen at these Roy Cohn, was seen as these and a guy that was close to both Hoover and Cohn, Lewis Rosensteel, who was a liquor baron of that particular area, was also sort of in the same circuit. It's alleged that this all took place at the Plaza Hotel. It's important to say this, Roca, while you're going through this, everything that you write about is primary sources, right?

It's not, for the most part, you go through primary sources. Or, you know, so in the case of this, a lot of it comes from books, different books written by people that are sourced that way from interviews and things like that. Got it. But yeah, I mean, anyone that looks in the book and goes through the footnotes of what I write about is going to find like very high quality sourcing. Sure. So Roy Cohen and Jade Groover.

So you're not saying Roy Cohen was involved in the sexual blackmail against Jade Groover ishover is why you know the mob was able to say so so Roy wasn't involved at all to corner jade gruhover so he can help the mob that was not not necessarily but they seem to have been in this that they they attended the same sex parties that the mob was apparently using to blackmail people and when roikon admitted his involved he he apparently admitted to this NYPD Vi Squad detective that he was involved in these kind of operations, but that he only did it because he had been entrapped. Originally, so this NYPD detective had like a, he, when I interviewed him, he expressed us

like some sympathy towards Con, like he felt bad for him. But Con did this stuff because he was apparently entrapped at some point. And you know, you have to keep in mind, this is a period of time when it's very difficult to be a gay man in DC. So, you know, a lot of this stuff is sort of like underground. And, you know, if it were to come out that they were homosexual,

it could have ended their political career. Both of them, him and Jade grew up. Oh, absolutely. And that's why the black male was so effective. I think in the period. And by the way, even Roy Cohen's assistant, who was with him, they call him, he was his lover, he died in 1984, from AIDS.

That's Roy Cohen's assistant, who died in 1984, from AIDS. And that's the AIDS pandemic where everybody was talking about. Right, Cohen also died from it. You're right, I know. But the point being his assistant died from it and then boom, the same thing happened with him. Are the stories with Jager Hoover, he was the director of the CIA?

FBI. I'm sorry, FBI. The story's about cross-dressing and high heels. How much truth is in that? Okay, so there's a couple different sources from that. So one is Susan Rosensteel, or I think that's her name, if I'm not mistaken. It's Lewis Rosensteel's fourth wife is a source for that.

And then there was a separate source, there were two or three separate sources unrelated to Susan Rosensteel that corroborated that claim. So when there's that many sources, it's almost like when there's smoke, there's fire, how much? Well, you know, it's, when it's corroborated, I mean, I feel like then it's possible to report it. I mean, people can make their own conclusions. I mean, there's some people I think that have a very vested image in the image of Hoover

that we're all told. So like, you know, there'll be people that doesn't matter how much you corroborate it. There'll be people who won't believe it. Do you leave that path? That what? About J Edgar Hoover and cross-chesting. And if I'm going to put odds, nothing is 100%

because I was in there to witness while he was getting it on, but I would say 90%. Oh, so I think so. I don't think it's an issue anymore. His secret life with Clyde Tulson, and that he was a homosexual and all of this is well known. And there's even been Bill Clinton's speech just from the 90s where he sort of references

that about J Edgar Hoover and everyone laughs in the room, right? So like, you know, there may be some stuff that isn't no necessarily to the American public, but like in these elite circles in BC, you know, they stuff gets out, right? My question about elite circles, we constantly hear this where the elites, the rich elites, the global elites, the elites, you know, these days in America, everything's so fracturized. I'm on team red. I'm a Democrat. I'm very polarized. Very polarized, right? And one thing I always say is like, I don't care about the blue, I don't care about the red.

I follow the green, right? It's all about the money. Follow the money, right? Right. So these themes that we're talking about, what's J. Edgar Hoover back in the 50s and beyond that JFK and to the 80s and Reagan and Clinton in the 90s up until today and Trump, there seems to be like three common themes. Money, power, and sex.

And that just sort of pierces through everything. Is that fair to say? Yeah, I'd agree with that. Those are major, the major three things probably that are a common thread throughout my book, because my book really starts back in the 40s and goes up. And so, yeah, I mean, through those decades, that's what makes the world go around as far as the US is concerned in power.

Because a lot of people look at the politicians and think that's the power, right? But who is backing those politicians and who's backing those backers? And to paraphrase Jay or Tolkien, who's the banker of those backers, right? So there's always these different layers of power. And talking about someone like Roy Cohen, Roy Cohen had a system called the favor bank system, which is what he called it. And everyone he interacted with had

an open account in his favor bank. And you either do deals with him or you go against him and you get plus or minuses. And you know, you get called these unsavory alliances, especially New York City to stay in power. And things like that. And Roy Conler, a lot of this just growing up, was a very young boy.

He was not typical. He was very interested in power and accumulating it for a very young age. And he was very close to like very prominent mob leaked businessmen, like a General So Pope, who was the father of one of his best friends growing up and had this, he was very close to Frank Costello, the mobster, and ran one of the biggest cement companies or concrete companies in New York, obviously very important to real estate

and very close to organized crime, very politically powerful because he ran, I think of Monopoly on the Italian language newspapers in New York for Italian immigrants. We basically controlled that voting block to a significant degree. And so Roy Cohen had sort of an inside track into how these deals are made behind closed doors with businessmen and politicians as father. There was a very prominent judge with a Democratic party. And at this point, the Democratic party in New York, a lot of that power basis unions and mob, the mob took over a lot of the unions very early on in the 20s and the 30s.

And there are even some cases I know in the book where they wanted a mob-backed politician and power. They threatened the life of some guy and then they just put the mob guy in. And this is back in the 30s. That's things really changed. I don't necessarily think that it has, I think, more mainstream media willingness to look at those cases has declined steadily with the years because what kind of journalist wants to take those kind of risks, right?

Especially if you live in the swamp that you're writing about. Pat, let me get your opinion because this is mind blowing to me. I don't know if there's anybody on the planet like Pat that has interviewed collectively business people, political figures, and mob people. Like, if you put those three trifecta together, Pat is, I don't, I mean, venture to say, I don't know of anybody's on your level in that regard. You've interviewed Rudy Giuliani and kind of how they compare, you know, what the mob does and political figures, like, when you're processing all this,

you brought up Frank Costello. Like, you're hearing these common themes, themes. How are you processing all this? No, I mean, listen, it's a, I can see this happening. Because the easiest way to get somebody like after, you ever see somebody that flips? Like even the conversation came up with Joe Manchin, with Thomas, why did he all of a sudden to go from not supporting to supporting?

What happened there? What happened with Colonel Powell, go from where he was at to all of a sudden flipping? Why do some people all of a sudden dramatically flip, which makes no sense. You were loyal 60 years to this cause, then dramatically you go XYZ. Did somebody have something on you?

Is somebody calling and saying, take a look at this picture, take a look at this video, take a look at this, I'm not telling you to do this. All I'm saying to you is somebody calling and saying, take a look at this picture, take a look at this video, take a look at this, I'm not telling you to do this. All I'm saying to you is, if you don't, there are people much more powerful than me that are gonna probably leak this to the public and I don't want you reputation to be ruined in the face of your kids and all that other stuff.

There are very few people that are willing to say, go ahead, do it, I don't care, go ahead, do very, very few people. Matter of fact, I'm willing to say it go ahead, do it. I don't care. Go ahead, do very, very few people. Matter of fact, I'm willing to say it's 0.0001% because these same people that are driven by power, sex and money are also driven by legacy and their reputation. And so the moment you risk their legacy and reputation, that's the ultimate control.

But what do you want to talk about the ultimate slave? The ultimate slave is when somebody has that kind of dirt on you. For the rest of your life, you have to do whatever they tell you to do at the sacrifice of anything. So it has that happened. Was the mob involved for doing this? The mob wants to control and have power over you back in the days, the way they did it.

They had many creative ways of doing it. I don't see this not being the case. But let's go back into the 40s because there's a lot of names when we go back to the days, the way they did it, they had many creative ways of doing it. I don't see this not being the case, but let's go back into the 40s because there's a lot of names when we go back to the 40s. So my interest in the following is this. Here's what my interest is. Anybody that becomes a high, high level criminal

in any industry saw it through somebody else. Typically someone taught them how to do this. It's not like they accidentally picked this up. Somebody taught them how to do this. Few of them maybe they're inspired by a book they wrote, book they read or a movie they watched, but for the most part they saw someone do it. So Epstein goes back, Dalton brings a man,

who taught him the sex black male model? You don't know that. No, it's very hard to know. I'm sure there's some people who claim they know, but frankly, from what I've seen, it's very hard to know, but I think it's more likely it took place somewhere in the 1980s. It was probably either BCCI or even someone like Adnan Kishoggi, right? Adnan Kishoggi had a yacht, and he was accused of having a harem of women on that yacht and he would use that to butter up politicians, private businessmen, whoever he needed to help him

accomplish his goals, which more often than I was selling weapons, weapons deals. Right? So, there's a lot of different places that could have come from. Like I mentioned earlier, BCCI was sex trafficking on basically an industrial scale. And as I note in the book, the way it's described, what they were doing in the BCCI report, very similar to what Jeffrey Epstein and Galein Maxwell

later did. There was a woman he was working with in that BCCI report. So this is the creator of BCCI and a woman in Pakistan. Because they were trafficking women from Pakistan mainly to the elites of the United Arab Emirates. It was probably more extensive than that, and it's sort of acknowledged in the BCCI report, but what that report documents

is this Pakistan to UAE pipeline. And it's honestly very disturbing, but the way it describes what this woman was doing in advancing this sex trafficking operation there, very similar to the role Galeen Maxwell would later go on to play with Jeffery Epstein. I have a question about these women, and I mean, Yacht's, boats, women, I mean, I grew up in South Beach. This is every weekend, right? This is not a big deal at all, except for this. So women, I mean, there's no secret guys like beautiful women.

I don't think that's a controversial topic. This is this tale is old It's time, but these young women these underage women my question is this is it used for blackmail? Are they upon in a deeper game or are they just sick fucks that actually like younger women meaning oh I'm in to 15 16 year old girls or no women, meaning, oh, I'm into 15, 16-year-old girls or no, I'm into hot women. You tell them that they're 18, 20, 21, whatever. Well, it actually turned out she was 16, dude, and we have pictures to prove it. And we're going to use it as blackmail. Which one is it?

I think it can be, it really depends. It could be both, really depending on the person. I mean, at Jeffrey Epstein, in Jeffrey Epstein's case, I think he was definitely doing the gothiest stuff and the latter stuff to people. I think that's pretty clear. But in addition, when he tried to justify himself to journalists after his first arrest, he would be like, now listen, historically,

the age of consent wasn't 16, and it's not that weird. Once they hit puberty, like, game on, basically, is what he was saying. And people have pointed to, I think it's an op-ed piece that Alan Dershowitz wrote. And I think the early 2000s or late 90s don't know the exact date, but he says something like, you know, it should really be once girls start menstruating.

That the adept person said this. Yes. This is why his name constantly gets brought up. You know, there's allegations against him obviously, but. He's talked about it and he's responded to it in interviews. Like people have asked. He's very direct about it, but I think that's part of his strategy. I think he feels like if he starts away from it, people will assume guilt.

And I think he thinks he has a better chance of protecting his reputation if he confronts it head on. But the court of public opinion as far as Dershowitz is concerned, I think a lot of people seem to agree with the allegations. But again, it's hard to know, you know, when it comes to Epstein, you know, if your name gets associated with him, even Epstein acknowledged in early 2019, you know, he's radioactive, is the word he used to describe himself after his first arrest. Two things.

Let's talk about when the connection came with Clinton and then when he met Jelaine. Which happened first? He met Jelaine first, then he met with... Yeah, yeah. So with Golanemax, well, it's publicly claimed that they met in late 1991 or so, their first public appearance together was when he sat next to her and her mother at a tribute

to Robert Maxwell shortly after his death that was at the Plaza Hotel in New York. But that was sort of, in my opinion, more of a coming out of their public relationship in this close association that followed from that point on of Jeffrey Epstein and Galein Maxwell. I know in the book that there's differing allegations, and people are open to make up their own conclusions about it

that they met years prior. And there's also allegations from people that worked with Robert Maxwell when he was doing stuff for Israeli intelligence, including former Israeli intelligence agents, that Robert Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein knew each other in the mid-1980s and worked together on intelligence stuff and that Golan Maxwell had sort of brought Epstein into the fold

because they had some sort of romantic relationship in this. Who had the romantic relationship? Jeffrey Epstein and Golan before 1991. That's the claim. Is that how you, like, how would you describe their relationship or their friends or their lovers or their business partners? Was it all the above?

Was it weird? Was it sex? I think after 1991, it was definitely very business partner stuff. There's been a lot of this stuff out there to absolve Galeen, I think, in a sense, where they say, oh, she was just enamored with them and that's why she did everything.

I think it's much more complicated than that. And the reason I think they've been able to sell that narrative so well is because they just totally ignore her father and her relationship with her father. Her father dies and she's used to being in this particular relationship with a man. In this case, her father who dominates her life and runs it basically for her and has for years. And then he's dead and what does she do? She goes to someone who's just like Robert Maxwell.

So it's important to find out more about Robert Maxwell because he himself was a very, very interesting character. What do we know about Robert Maxwell? Oh man, well, I mean we could fill up the whole bucket. It's talking about Robert Maxwell to be honest, but really his intelligence connections are a matter of record. He was very closely associated with Israeli intelligence. He was also closely associated with figures in a Soviet and Eastern European intelligence to a significant degree in a ledge relationship with British intelligence. I mean, it seems like he could have been a double or triple agent, you know, very involved with intelligence stuff.

And that's why it's complicated when we talk about intelligence affiliations. Oh, you know, people are like, are like, Robert Maxwell was just massage. Well, you know, it's more complicated than that. These people are interested in money and power for themselves a lot of times. So if it means, you know, you know, helping these guys out and helping these guys out, having your hands and as many pies as possible

to rake in more money for you and stuff like that, I mean, a lot of these guys seem to do that in Robert Maxwell was definitely a guy that's sort of seen just not just straddle and tell it different intelligence agencies, but also intelligence and organized crime, which is another big theme of the book. So looking at Robert Maxwell by the around the end of the 1980s or so, he went into business with Eastern block mobsters in a big way.

People like Simeon Mogulovich, whose name has come up, for example, like when mainstream media talks about Donald Trump and the Russian mob and all of this stuff, it all goes back to Simeon Mogulovich, but they won't acknowledge that he was a business partner of Robert Maxwell, and you have Donald Trump partying on the Lady Galein, Robert Maxwell's yacht in the same period in the late 80s and all of this stuff.

So is it really more of the Maxwell mafia or the Russian mafia, right? There hasn't really been an interest in connecting, you know, those dots, right? And I think it's interesting too. You look at Donald Trump's reaction to Jeffrey Appstein's arrest. He wants to distance himself. I'm not a fan, right? And then Galein Maxwell gets arrested. I wish her well, he says. And people like that used to be pretty close to this nexus. Like Steve and Hoffenberg say that Trump was much closer to the Maxwell side than the Appstein side. From the father side, Robert.

Yeah, and that it continued, you know, that his affiliation with Epstein and Galene after Robert Maxwell's death, talking about Donald Trump, was because that he was closer to Galene than Epstein necessarily. Well, let me ask you this. How was Trump's relationship with the Murdoch family? I'm not exactly familiar with that, but because these guys were competitors. Maxwell and Murdoch were not the two bonders. Yeah, but Trump's mentor was Roy Cohn, right?

And so Roy Cohn had a friendly relationship with Murdoch. Got it. And these guys are going at it. And this character, Robert Maxwell, could have been like a great, great Gatsby character because he would tell the stories and half the stories you don't know if it's real or not, but at that time he can have to leave it.

He was, he's been described as like narcissistic, a very, very big on self promotion, very, you know, he was determined to make himself and his family sort of like the next Kennedy's. He wanted to make a dynasty of power. That was what he was interested in. Maxwell. Robert Maxwell, yeah. And one of the top FBI special agents in New York, John Patrick O'Neill, you know, went

on record saying that Robert Maxwell, before he died, set into motion a global coalition of criminals that he basically made a major successful effort to bring together organized crime factions from around the world into like a global basically criminal conglomerate at the same time that he has all these intelligence affiliations. Wow. And that's pretty significant, right? It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's,

it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it affiliations and that's pretty significant, right? And that, mm-hmm. Keep going. Well, I was just gonna say that O'Neill said, you know, if you look into that guy's career specifically, you know, he was sort of head on it to be head of the security at the World Trade Center and he started just days before 9-11 and he was sort of pushed out of the FBI. But before he was, he left the FBI and he made these statements to author Gordon Thomas, he said, I have people looking in,

still trying to unravel the Maxwell legacy in New York. And this is a decade after Robert Maxwell's death. You gotta realize, this guy was born, Chuck was like in Ukraine, right? And then his parents and his four siblings get killed at a Auschwitz. I don't know if it was a camp, but they definitely did die. But they were also pogroms and all sorts of stuff.

They died in the hands of the Nazis. Yeah, they died in the hands of the Nazis. He fought against the Nazis for the British military. And so then later on he goes into wanting to compete in media, the whole mirror. And then you know, he won 51% of MTV. It's kind of weird. This guy won 51% MTV.

Robert. He won 51% of MTV. He was building a mass. He won 51% of MTV. It's kind of weird. This guy won 51% of MTV. Robert. He won 51% of MTV. He was building a mass. He won 51% of MTV. And I was like a 51% of MTV. And then this is Galein Maxwell's father. Robert Maxwell. Robert Maxwell.

So and then Galein is the last child, the ninth child. The youngest. And his favorite after the eldest son, is injured in a, no, the eldest son is injured. I think Michael Maxwell, he dies after being in a vegetative state for several years. He was the favorite child and had this awful car accident.

And then Galen, who was, Galen was born around the same time that happened with her older brother. And so the family basically neglected her for the first couple years of her life. And she developed a childhood anorexia and stuff and had a lot of problems with feeling even acknowledged by her own family which obviously is going to have psychological stuff implications for her obviously and then you know what

doubles back and then she becomes the favorite child so you know you have that neglect and then you go to being favorite child you know there's a you sort of see like Maxwell nine kids you saying Get seven. Okay, so all these kids was it with the same woman and where were they all born? You know, yeah, it was a Betty Maxwell is the the wife and very complicated relationship there because Robert Maxwell was not faithful And doesn't seem like that kind of guy She was very faithful and very devoted. So, you know, yeah, I feel kind of sad for her to be honest.

But he was not faithful, but he wanted his children to be sort of like arms of his empire, right? Yeah. But two of them are estranged, I believe. I forget their names. One went away to Argentina and the other one. He was not very nice to a lot of his kids.

He was known to verbally abuse Kevin and Evan, a Kassari Kevin and Ian. And then the daughter that's a strange, he insulted her appearance a lot. And that might have affected. Does there any doubt in your mind that he was an intelligence asset? Robert Maxwell. I just started looking into this a couple days ago because it's all her fault. I mean, I literally started looking into this couple days ago because it's all her fault I mean I literally started looking thanks I'm not the first though with Robert Maxwell Seymour Hirsch published a book called the Samson option why Robert Maxwell was still alive alleging a relationship with Israeli intelligence and in in Britain the libel laws are very strong so Robert Maxwell sued over that intelligence claim and he did not win. Did not win.

And by the way, here's the thing. The same or Hirsch was right. So we'll just leave that there. As far as I'm concerned, it's pretty extensively documented the affiliation with Israeli intelligence. And he names as Yacht, the 15 million dollar Yacht he buys, Lady Gilane. After his favorite child. After his favorite child. But it's a little weird, the between Robert and Well, and the lane right for example, Golan commissions pictures for the lady Golan and some of them are a bit racy

What does that mean? I don't know. I mean father daughter relationship. Do you really want like a picture of your daughter with the skirt all the way up here being like? It's weird. You know, I'm not saying I know anything that happened between them, but I think there was a lot of psychological manipulation and, you know, it seems like Robert Maxwell, at least in my opinion, was kind of narcissistic. A lot of narcissistic parents see no boundaries between them and their children.

They see their children as extensions of them. He believed that Galein was the most sexually attractive and the most like him, right? So, you know, a lack of boundaries can mean a lot of things in that particular context. And as I know in the book, chapter 15 specifically, which is about all this stuff, it seems like he was interested in using her sexuality for his benefit in a PR sort of way. Like, for example, would publish stories in his own papers of alleged affairs of his daughter with elite people, you know, aristocrats and Britain

and stuff like that. Even though, you know, the British elites that he would name were, you know, denied any sort of romantic relationship. Robert Maxwell obviously wanted that out there. And this is the same guy who with Galein's, you know, boyfriends when she was in high school, didn't want them near the same guy who with Gillain's, you know, boyfriends when she was in high school, didn't want them near the house, didn't want her to date,

you know, was very controlling of her romantic life, but at the same time would publish, you know, basically gossip and smuddy gossip and his newspapers about her. I can see most dads not wanting, you know, your teenage daughter around boys. But he wanted her to marry a Kennedy. That's what he wanted.

Oh, really? Oh yeah. Can we see a a good bill could be a little bit of a young, Galen Maxwell? We all know what she looks like now, but young. Yeah, and after no one knows how he died,

suicide, you know, what happened. There's a lot of allegations, but let's look at what Galen Maxwell says. Galen Maxwell believes that he was murdered by rogue Mossad agents and the Sicilian mafia. That's what Galen Maxwell thinks happens to her father. When does she say that? I think it's quoted in the New York Post somewhere.

I cited in the book. She says he was murdered because they, you know, the other children claim not murder, but she thinks she was, she was the person who, according to British journalists, when he died, she was the one that came down out of all the siblings, came to the yacht right after his death, goes on the boat and shreds papers.

So that means out of all the kids, if that's true, out of all the kids, she knew what was incriminating and what was not where it was and what to shred. Yeah, and by the way, when he dies, you know who is Yacht Ghost too? Is Yacht Ghost a Murdoch-Sturred wife? Oh, interesting.

It is interesting in the story. That's the part where it's a very, very connection of wanting to compete in media on how this guy does. Well, the Murdoch Maxwell stuff was pretty intense, that competition of the Murdoch drove Maxwell insane. Yeah. It looks at things. at things. He apparently was willing to stretch his business empire as far as he could just to try and stick Murdoch in the eye. And that includes using 460 or 440 million dollars of his employees' retirement plan. Yeah, I know.

Yeah. Do you hear this? The pension fund for the mirror. He used his employees pensions fund to Finance what he was doing with the media company $446 million and the employees ended up only getting half of it at the end after he died because of sons I think Kevin and he didn't leave any leave any of you any of his money to a gillain He felt there was a proper tone well

They have trust in licked instein. No one knows about. All right. And the FBI special agents looking at this stuff in New York, you know, Elaine apparently came and made the show wearing like rags and like sobbing, like dirty, being like, I have no money, but they didn't believe her. And they were trying to find out that all these trusts and stuff that he, you know, he, he was, what Jeffree Epstein did with money? Robert Maxwell was even better. So he, so he, he was, what Jeffery Epstein did, what money? Robert Maxwell was even better.

So he, so he, so who knows really where the money went? We don't really know. A lot of the, the maze of Robert Maxwell's funds, a lot of it is honestly still a mystery. Then this is where, this is where my question goes to, who had a bigger influence on how to take Epstein's game to the next level? Was it Gelaene because, what she learned from her father, or was it to take Epstein's game to the next level. Was it Gellane because what she learned from her father or was it something that Epps, like who brought more to the table for the crime that they committed, both of them together?

Was it more Epstein's background or was it more Gellane's experience? Well, you mean after Robert Maxwell's death? Yes. So I think Gellane was looking to continue the same role she was sort of doing for her father, which was being an ambassador for her father, basically in New York,

and the interest that represented him, his handlers, sort of looked to her. And at this time, Jeffrey Epstein is the money manager for Leslie Wexner. And Leslie Wexner is affiliated with a group of very powerful billionaires who at the same time, the Robert Maxwell made his enroads to New York with Galein sort of as the ambassador I'm sorry less my true. Oh, yeah They're quoted in I think vanity fair of having core that those those billionaires courting Robert Maxwell Specifically, so it seems like there was some sort of effort to bring those interests together even before Robert Maxwell died This name less Wexner. If you're not familiar with it, I mean, go ahead and tell.

I mean, this is Victoria's secret. He's the list of the guys. This is the guy that basically created the modern day shopping mall, Abercrombie and Fitch. That's got beyond Victoria's secret. Like reveal a little bit about this guy. Okay, so I mean, he's a retail guy.

So I guess the big brands were familiar with, yeah, he's the one that backs them. But his rise to power is partly linked to People that that built the shopping malls and the least space to him. They called him the Merlin of the mall something of that capacity Yeah, I think that's a nickname for for waxing. Yeah, but people like Edward Dave Bartolo, I think is how you pronounce it. De Bartolo. The Bartolo family on the 49ers. I mean, this is all coming together these route Yeah, yeah, all the money ladies and gentlemen. Yeah, keep going. family, they own the 49ers. I mean, this is all coming together. These were all the money, ladies and gentlemen. Yeah, keep going.

Yeah, and then Alfred Tobman, who was another big shopping, he built a lot of shopping malls. He's one of the guys that really, he's considered a mentor to Wexner as his max fisher. And these are guys really powerful people from Detroit specifically involved in real estate shopping mall stuff. Max Fisher also has a background in oil,

but also got into a lot of, well he's the guy that made topman, I guess, because topman built a lot of, I think the gas station, like convenience stores for the oil company and then got into retail, commercial centers and the rest of that. The reason I asked about Lex Waxner is, cause I went down the rabbit hole,

you've done multiple interviews with Tim Dylan,? I love Tim I know like he's Someone that weren't talking about love the guy. He'll be he'll be here pretty soon But I've watched multiple of your interviews. I'm a fan to Tim Dylan, you know Multiple connections there, but you said quote unquote Epstein made his money from links to three powerful men And you said less wixner you Bill Gates, and then you said Donald Trump. That's not for me. That's a 2001 article from the evening standard, which is a mainstream media publication in the UK, prestigious, right? And it's never been retracted. It's from 2001, but if you believe US mainstream media Bill Gates and Epstein didn't meet till 2011, and this is

2001. So there's 10 years of... There's than 10 years I think with Bill Gates and Epsteinian. Gotcha. It's pretty crazy that there's an article like that out there from 2001 and mainstream media is like 2011. What did that article say? Well, it's talking so that evening standard article is talking mainly about Prince Andrew and who are Prince Andrew's new friends. Oh, it's Galein Maxwell because obviously, you know, Robert Maxwell's theft of the pension fund money, obviously had huge ramifications in Britain. A lot of people for understandable reasons, and it liked the Maxwell family after that. So a lot of the gossip columns or newspapers report a lot in what the Maxwell children

were doing. They sort of became infamous celebrity children. And so they follow up on them. And then Prince Andrew, you know, circa 2000 or so is going on vacation after vacation with Galene Maxwell and Jeff Reapstein. And so Jeff Reapstein is sort of introduced in that article and they're trying to explain to their audience in Britain and 2001 who Epstein is because people probably haven't heard of them. Yeah, they all know Galene, they all do Prince Andrew obviously, but they don't know Jeff Reapstein. So the introduction to Jeff Reappstein is, they describe him as a property developer.

And actually, a lot of early articles on Epstein don't say billionaire financial advisor, like a lot of the later ones do, they say property developer. There's a real estate connection there, which is a sort of explorer. And then in that article, what's the Gates Trump connection with all of them? That's what they said. The line there is that this is where you know Jeff Reapstein's money comes from these are his clients his top clients basically and so people know that there was a longstanding wax in a relationship a long-standing Trump relationship but it mentions

Bill Gates and at the time Bill Gates never challenged that article you know it was never retracted like I mentioned earlier the UK has very strong libel laws. If it was untrue, he could see when it could be retracted today. But it's never been done. When you're going through this rabbit hole and you're kind of researching people, you know, sometimes you do this in business, you do it in sports, you do it in a lot of different things. And in all of a sudden, you're trying to go here, then somebody makes you go here. Okay, you're like, wait, what?

This guy's more interesting than these guys that was researching. Who did that to you while you're going through the rabbit hole in all of a sudden? There's a personality saying this guy could be one of the most powerful guys or influential guys or gals that nobody looked at. Yeah, that happens to me a lot, yeah. Especially in looking at this web

and it really is kind of a web. So you end up going in different directions and really all those different tangents are worth exploring because sometimes There's very important connections there. Sure. Yeah. Who anybody? Well, for example, let's take Leslie Wexner, right the the De Bartolo family had an affiliation with Wexner and it actually mentioned in a police report from Columbus, Ohio, that they have organized crime connections. And it discusses that Leslie Wexner by extension has several organized crime connections himself, right? So, you know, I didn't, that particular police report, you know, has a lot of very interesting information about Leslie Wexner's business connections and his business associates. But then, you know, if you go beyond that and you look at those names

that come up there on their own, you find a lot more information that the organized crime connections are a lot more extensive. For example, then they are in the police report and things like that, or maybe things I've done more recently since that report was written, you know, it's really worth that leave, but no surprise.

You know, it's crazy in these cases. If you ever watched the show, it's always sunny in Philadelphia ever. Yeah, but you're amazing show. But to your point, Tyler, pull up this picture. I just sent you. Tell me if you ever seen this image, if we could pull it up. But this is what essentially Pat's question reminds me of that you're doing, that anyone

who's ever watched the show. Oh, it's a, you've seen this? Yeah, sure. I mean, it's like me. Making a murder documentary, going down the rabbit hole, this is what comes to mind. This is where I'm at right now. Yeah, but some people use this image to be like,

oh, everyone that looks at this kind of stuff in claims, there's any sort of web or like decentralized power structure with real pull is insane. And it's sort of this claim when you get called a conspiracy theorist, right? It's sort of this idea that all this stuff we're talking about today. It's just a coincidence. These people have no agency. They don't actually, you know, plan to expand their power and wealth behind closed doors And I think that's honestly pretty nice. I got to say I saw this comedian yesterday, you know how somebody sends me this clip

What an funny African-American warrant wearing a suit just thing went viral funny funny I wish I knew the guys him to give him credit If I find out put it on Instagram for people to see it funny, African-American, wearing a suit, just thing went viral, funny, funny. I wish I knew the guys, I'm to give them credit. If I find out, I'll put it on Instagram for people to see it. So he says, listen, I understand, not believe in most conspiracy theories.

But you mean to tell me, you are willing to believe that all of them are conspiracy theories? You have a problem with that. There's no way in the world, all conspiracy theories are wrong. No way. There has to be some of them that are right. He says, look, here you have the government that's filled by thousands of powerful people, hundreds of powerful people, and there's 330 million of us, right, that they're going to lie to us. He says, look, I got a son. I love my son. I love him more than anybody in the world. And I want him to live an incredible life. But I got to tell you he's got one person above him as a father and it's me and I lie to that kid all the time.

That's the one right there. Is you send it to me? Oh my god. That was hilarious. I Couldn't stop laughing. Let's put the link below if people are lies to the kids. He says, I like to my kid all the time is what makes you think, if I as a parent like to my kid all the time, government's not lying to us about different conspiracy theorists. It says, you have to be naive to not believe some of these things that could be true. Fully agree. But they put the label and then they discredit somebody

that's writing and saying what they're saying. And they take one part of it that you got wrong and automatically they say everything else you said. But I think now, it's mostly false thing. It's like, no, it's mostly true. saying and they take one part of it that you got wrong and automatically they say everything else you said about it. But I think I know it's mostly false thing. I would say, no, it's mostly true. Yeah. But one little false comment.

But think about today, if you're saying something that's true, but the government calls it a conspiracy theory, you can lose, if you're someone like me, you can lose your income. You can be taken off of Patreon, you can be taken off of Twitter, Facebook, YouTube. What did you get taken off? I got taken off of Patreon. Yeah. Patreon took you off. What did you get taken off? Any other questions? I got taken off of Patreon. Yeah. Patreon took you off. What was their reason?

It's, well, I wrote an article about the affiliations of the creator of the AstraZeneca COVID vaccine and that he was affiliated in speaking to the Galtan Institute, which was until 1989, the British Eugenic Society, and some of the affiliations of that particular organization. So anyway, they didn't like that. I mean, Eugenics, we can have a whole conversation about that.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. But I got to tell you, you know, I'm on Pat's show on our show. I'm sort of the skeptic. We have 9-11 there, you know, conspiracy theories guys. We've got obviously COVID stuff. We've had pre-sign that exercise demons, Q and on type stuff, and I'm very skeptical. On this, I'm not skeptical at all.

I'm like, okay, questioning things. I think you're savvy enough to know that a lot of this stuff makes sense when we're talking about the politics of power and you're about follow the money. Yes, exactly. That's my point is that it's, people wanna get political ideology.

Right. This has nothing to do with politics. But I mean, Democrat government just follow the freaking money. Yeah. And think about that with Epstein. This is a guy that's so infamous. Everyone in America probably knows his name, but no one knows that he committed financial crimes.

Oh, it's a sex trafficker. That's what we know. He's just a sex trafficker. He's a finance. But this is a guy that was involved in one of the biggest Ponzi schemes in US history with Towers Financial, even though he was named as being the mastermind of that during Grand Jury. Perceding, his name is dropped from the case and he ends up at Bill Clinton fundraisers in

1993. And then after that, some of the most controversial fundraisers in Bill Clinton's presidential career, Epstein's there. And then after Clinton leaves office, he's setting up the Clinton Foundation following an Epstein's plan around Africa. He credits Epstein for coming up with his H.I. HIV AIDS philanthropy being involved in creating the Clinton Health Access Initiative. You know, and a lot of people have sort of, you know, argued that the Clinton Foundation

is sort of a glorified political slush fund for the Clinton family. So why do you have a financial criminal helping you set up your your foundation after he's involved with the most controversial actually fundraisers of your of your political career after being involved in a major Ponzi scheme after being a financial bounty hunter involved in the offshore banking complex. It's complicated stuff. There's no interest in looking at this stuff except for maybe the daily mail. I'll give you some examples. So the daily beast around the time that Epstein was arrested the second time came out and noted that Epstein had

attended at least five meetings at the Clinton White House with a guy named Mark Middleton. Okay. Last December, the daily mail obtained the full visitor logs. That number ballooned to 17. It wasn't covered in the US. Shouldn't that matter? That it goes from five to 17. You have this guy in less than around two years going to the White House 17 times. And he's not just meeting with Mark Middleton. His first meeting was Robert Ruman, a former head of Goldman Sachs, who by the way, Goldman Sachs was accused of being a major accessory to Robert Maxwell's financial crimes, including the stuff with the pension funds and all of that were involved in all of this crazy stuff.

So the guy that is part, you know, running basically the bank that Robert Maxwell is very much tied to, Robert Maxwell dies'm the first guy to bring Jeffrey Epstein into the White House is that banker. So go to the Clintons. Go to the Clintons, you were talking about everything with the Clintons. Why do so many people when it comes out to Clintons get suicide?

You know, we hear the story. I don't have the answer for that, but I mean, I can give you my opinion. Yeah, that's what I want to hear. We hear these stories. And then, you's what I want to hear. Why, we hear these stories. And then, you know, I want to ask you whether you feel Trump has any kind of involvement with Epstein, not in regards to business, but with women, because I have my own theory there as well.

But let's start off with the Clinton's first. Okay, so the Clinton stuff is really complicated. And even I, like, with the book, you know, I sort of saved some of that stuff for last. And it probably should be its own book, because this Mark Middleton guy, most of his meetings were with Mark Middleton. You have these visitor logs came out right last December at 17 visits.

It's much more than five with Mark Middleton. And then just a few months later, Mark Middleton dies in Little Rock, Arkansas. He was allegedly found hanging by the neck from an extension cord around his neck and a shotgun wound to the chest and it was labeled to suicide. A local court in Arkansas said that no media,

front taken at the scene, photos, videos, anything is allowed to be released to the public. Huh, what? He was hanging. Supposedly, this is again, from the Daily Mail Sighting local law enforcement that, you know, it's very crazy. I mean, listen, if you can commit suicide by hanging yourself and shooting yourself with

a shotgun in the chest, your, your magician is what you are. I mean, you're in a league of your own to be able to do that. Yeah. And so this is right after it comes out that he's, you know, meeting the guy that met with Epstein a bunch of the Clinton White House. But it's even crazier than that. Because you, once you start looking into who Mark Middleton was at the White House, it gets crazy really fast.

I'll give you an example. George W. Bush comes into office. Are you familiar with the first time Bush invoked executive privilege? Among other things, I think there were three things in the particular document that was, you know, that invocation. But one of those three was all documents about Mark Middleton, not going to Congress, which was investigating Mark Middleton. Why did Bush step into protect a aid to the chief of staff of the White House for Clinton, who's normally, you know, he's not a big fish, right? Why is Bush stepping in for that? Well, if you look into why Mark Middleton was infamous

at that time and why he was being investigated. It's remembered really only by US conservatives today and they refer to it as China Gate, which is kind of a largely forgotten political scandal. It's insane once you get into it. I personally think China Gate. I think China Gate's kind of a misnover. You do have China involved, but really it's the same.

It's some of the families that backed Bill Clinton when he was governor of Arkansas, the Riyadhye family, Jackson Stevens, these types of figures, when Bill Clinton becomes president, they have a lot of interest in China stuff. And mainly it looks sort of like a lot of tech transfer stuff to China. And so conservatives at the time said it was basically the Clinton selling out US national security on a major scale to the Chinese government, or mainly to firms that were state-backed and tied up with the Chinese military.

And Mark Middleton was one of the guys at the center of this, and Epstein's meeting with him at the same time that China Gates active and oddly enough in the same period of time. And I mean, this is why it's so crazy. Jeffrey Epstein on behalf of Leslie Wexner is involved in moving an airline called Southern Air Transport from Miami, Florida to Columbus, Ohio

to Run Cargo for the Limited. And sorry, I got away from microphone. And that's the airline that used to be Air America. The CIA airline Southern Air Transport was involved in the Iran Contra stuff, moving stuff, the Mina Arkansas, Barry Seal, the cocaine stuff, all of that was Southern Air Transport. And then just a few years later, it becomes the airline of the limited

and it's not going from Miami to Latin America anymore. It's going from Columbus, Ohio, involved with Epsian Wexner, it's going to Hong Kong. And this is the guy at the same period of time he's meeting with the China gate. I mean, there's a lot of really crazy stuff here and honestly it would take the whole podcast to unravel it all. I've tried to do my best in the book but there's really a lot more there and it's very crazy. And the other guy at the center of this was Commerce Secretary Ron Brown who agreed to cooperate

with an investigation and do a lot of the stuff, and then he ends up dead in a plane crash that kills a bunch of people in the Commerce Department that are at the exact part of Commerce, ITA, at the Commerce Department, who were, that was basically the department most targeted by this particular group for China Gate. Is this one where 34 people died? Yeah. And they said there was a radar failure. And then the next day, the radar failure guy was killed or suicide.

He had a, yeah, he was shot in the chest and it was real to suicide. That's it. So it was in Croatia, Ron Brown, after he agreed to investigate was told he needed to go on a, you know, urgent trade mission to Croatian. That's when the crash happens. And I think actually Maxine Waters at the time,

I requested there be further investigation because he was found with an odd wound in his head that was consistent with a gunshot wound and the X-rays disappeared and a lot of crazy stuff. Maxine Waters wanted it to be investigated? Yeah, well actually like when Gary Webb wrote you know, Dark Alliance and all this stuff, she also called for their doing investigation

but that doesn't mean it went anywhere, you know. Maxine Waters, Congresswoman. Well, I think she was a bit different in the 90s than she is now. No question. Let me just bring this down to earth for a second because obviously we can go the whole Charlie day. Yeah, but the point is that's really crazy, right? Yeah.

In all these theories and the stuff that we're hearing and we had a whole conversation about distrust of the media, you know, the stories about politics and Clintons and the media and the lies and the money and not trusting what you're seeing, taking things at face value, how should the average person, I'm just a normal American, I'm just a normal citizen, paying my bills, got my family,

how should they process just the news in your opinion? You mean like mainstream media? Yeah, just, you know, living my life. I'm just here, you know, doing what I'm doing. I think mainstream media has evolved a lot over the past few decades, right? I think, you know, I've been out of the U.S. This is my first time back in the U.S.

in like eight years. My parents, I was at their house a few days ago. They watch the evening news all the time, like ABC. And when they're talking about a government story, they just cite the government sources, and that's all they say. They don't, you know, look to see if it's true, they don't do any sort of watch duck stuff, they're just telling you what the official story is about really anything. And, you know, to me, that's being more of a stenographer than being a journalist.

I don't want to be a normal person right now. I want to be an abnormal person and go back to Clinton. So let's go back to Clinton. Okay, so we did Middleton, we did Ron Brown. Who else when you see the link to these guys? Esther, you got a few of these guys that you can... I mean, it's just, it's so nuts. I mean, I would encourage people to read this part of the book

because there's so much detail. It's so convoluted and insane when you get into the stuff about this. And even the congressional reports that we're done about China Gate, I mean, it's totally insane what happened. It's very like illegal. There was a focus on the illegal campaign donations, but it was basically like pay for play politics, but it was pay for play politics where these illegal campaign donations were being obtained from non-US citizens.

And it was basically buying influence to the commerce department. That was seems to have been signing off on basically tech transfers of sensitive like military and other types of technology to our ostensible adversary. And when it wasn't supposed to be sent over there and also stuff about China's trading status, like most favored nation trading status, because Clinton campaigned on playing hardball with the Chinese about that stuff, and he totally

reversed. Right? And a lot of this is because of this one family that backed his political career going way back, named the Riyadees that are actually Indonesian, but they're ethnic Chinese, and they have a lot of business interests, and all of Southeast Asia, they're very big, they're called the and they have a lot of business interests and all of Southeast Asia. They're very big. They're called the Lipo Group. And the Lipo Group and Jackson Stevens, these guys have a relationship with BCCI that

we mentioned we talked about earlier back in the 1980s and actually tried to save the BCCI Hong Kong branch before it's collapsed. And that's when they went into business with some of these Chinese government-owned firms. And that's where China Gate really starts, and it gets really crazy from there on out. But talking about China Gate anymore, you look at the first time Epstein went to a Clinton fundraiser. It was supposed to be for the White House Historical Association,

not only a fundraiser, so Hillary Clinton could redecorate parts of the White House. I don't even, I feel crazy talking about it just because it's so insane, but this fundraiser Epstein was involved in. He was one of the donors to that. You also have one of the guys instrumental in BCCI stuff like Clark Clifford, who was in the Carter administration and played a major role in BCCI's entry into the US financial system. And then you have a guy named C. Gerald Goldsmith who tried to run for mayor of Palm Beach once, who has a bunch of ties to offshore banking complex

organized crime. I mean, a lot of the guys, not everyone obviously, but some of the guys that attended this fundraiser are financial guys like that, right? And this fundraiser ends up in Vince Foster's suicide note. What was that mean? Are you familiar with Vince Foster? Yeah, of course he was White House Council and Yeah, and he died and

there's a lot of speculation about what really happened there Because you know, he supposedly shot himself in the mouth, but there's no blood at the scene right and Supposedly shot himself in the mouth, but there's no blood at the scene, right? And the autopsy report said it was a mouth to neck wound and then they changed it. You know, on some pages, it says that on some pages, it says like, you know, it was a regular gunshot wound. And then the people that were at the scene are advised about the autopsy late and they show up and all the part of the mouth and neck, the palate, all this stuff is just taken out of Vince Foster

so they can't look at it. And there's a lot of weird stuff going on there. I mean, I know the specifics about the death and the book and why people suspect something, but it's pretty much a matter of record that when police went into Vince Foster's office after his body was found there was nothing in his briefcase and then somehow like 36, I think hours later, the White House claims there was a suicide note that Benz Foster

left. And it was apparently Hillary Clinton's office that was responsible for finding that suicide note after this extensive delay. And the only mention of Hillary Clinton in that suicide note is related to this White House Historical Association fundraiser. So these crazy stories about the Clintons and all these, they've done this and suicide. It's like, when they're smoked, there's fire kind of a thing. There's credibility here.

I got a question about that, that we were kind of talking about yesterday. Remember how you were saying Deutsche Bank? We were talking Deutsche Bank. Yeah, you come to hear Deutsche Bank. Can you talk about Estes Salas? Estes Salas, what happened with her as a judge and her son? So I haven't followed up since the shooting happened, to be honest.

So I'm not actually sure how that case has advanced or not, but I know that the case was about to be heard. Estes Salas was the judge overseeing the case related to Deutsche Bank's relationship with Epstein and how despite staff, you know, red flagging lots of stuff that he was involved with, nothing happened to him at that particular bank. And there was a shooting at her home, her teenage son was murdered. And really, if you think about it, since Epstein's second arrest and the case became infamous, that's the only innocent person to die. Yeah, so. And that's related to Epstein's finances. This is again why I say the financial crimes, there's a reason the stuff is under reported.

But the part of the story that I wanna bring back to Clinton's and some of these other guys is the following. So, guy shows up as a delivery man, shoots the sun, wounds the husband, sun dies, while this whole thing is going on with Epstein and Deutsche Bank, and then the shooter, the next day, or not the next day the same day uh is found in a car

Would a dead dead with a bullet wound and he he killed himself right after you killed that's the narrative So you know some people have speculated is it even the guy that did the shooting or was it just pinned on him or you know who knows Uh, and if you look into the guy who is the alleged shooter, he previously worked for a group called Crawl Associates, which is known as the CIA of Wall Street. They did security on World Trade Center during 9-11. They also investigated many scandals of this particular group I read about in the books and then found no wrongdoing, even if they acknowledge wrongdoing in the bulk of the report their summary is everything's fine You know they investigated people like

Ednan Kishoggi and Emelda Marcos for all those financial things I think Covenant House Lots of stuff Robert Maxwell hired them right before his death Very interesting firm to say the least and And actually, French intelligence alleged a few times that they were in actual front for the CIA Coral Associates. But if you look at who's made up a lot of their staff

historically in terms of intelligence connections, it seems to come mostly from either US or Israeli intelligence at Coral Associates. How many murders are linked back to Clinton's? What's the number? I have no idea, but I'm sure people, like all sorts of stuff to them and I think you know There are some that we could link and then there are some that maybe you're a little more speculative Depriving on who's making the list right here's my question, you know

I'm gonna be the the skeptic here and My question is the following so if somebody does things like this You know like RFK, when I asked him about the murder of his father, Robert Kennedy, he wrote a book about it on what they did to him in his uncle, right? I mean, if something like that happens to you that closely to you,

you're probably gonna spend the rest of your life wanting to find out what happened to get to the bottom of it, right? Okay, are most people gonna wanna seek vengeance? I don't know, of course, most will not. Most are going to be like, oh, you know, I'm going to do something and they're not going to do anything about it. And life kind of goes on. You know, in most, you know, tragic events that happens, people generally move on a couple years later and life kind of happens. You're worried about, well, it's

going to affect the other kids, this, this, that, so I'm not gonna do anything about it. But if you've ever seen that one movie, when the Gerard Butler, what's the movie's name? We were talking about it yesterday. Law-biting citizen, where somebody kills his daughter and his wife and he goes and buys the building next to the prison and goes and finds the person

that killed his wife and his daughter, and he seeks vengeance, right? If something like this has happened with Epstein or with Clintons, why hasn't anybody done something about it, whether it's a lawyer, whether it's a lawyer. I think people have tried. I just think we don't hear about him. Take for example, Mina Arkansas,

we talked about earlier Southern transport, Mary Seal, the cocaine, the contrast stuff that was going on. Yeah, well, that's cute. There were some kids that ended up dead near there under suspicious circumstances. And the mother of one of those boys, I feel really bad, I can't remember her name because she's suffered so much and worked so hard

to try and find out what was going on there. Just decades trying to get to the bottom of it and trying to find out who killed her son. What was the city in Arkansas? Well, this is Mina Arkansas, so in me and A, we're talking about, but I think the exact location where they either lived or were found is a different city right next to us.

Crazy. Tying all this together, remember when we sat down with the drug trafficker for Pablo Escobar, what was his name? Roger Reeves. Didn't he talk about Barry Seal and Mina Arkansas? Wasn't that a theme with the Escobar and the drug running?

Wasn't that a thing? There was a lot of drugs in it. Is that accurate? Yes. What the? Well, here's basically what happened. I mean, this is sort of like a very simplified summary of major aspects of Iran-Contra, which

is, you know, of course, it's very complex. But basically, you know, Bill Casey, a CIA director, was told by Congress, you can only send humanitarian aid to the Contras. He had set up this major military support apparatus for the Contras in Nicaragua. And he was like, well, you know, how do I get around this? How do I get around Congress so I can finance whatever covert operation I want without Congress having to fund me?

How do I undermine them basically? So I can keep doing what I want, what I think is best, and screw what Congress thinks. Or screw what the president thinks even, right? How do you finance that? It gets complicated. It seems like some of the stuff they went towards was stuff like arms trafficking, drug trafficking. Maybe there's allegations of human traffic,

but who really knows, right? I have a hard time like somebody not making this their life mission to be. A lot of times you ask Rudy Giuliani, why'd you become a lawyer? Well, because when who his dad was, what his dad did, what his family was linked to, how he was around the mob, how he could have been in the mob,

and he chose to be a lawyer. One of my good friends became a cop in LA. His brother was a criminal. And we were, these are kids we went high school with, and he says, listen, he told his brother when they're in front of everybody. He's the younger brother, he says, I'm gonna become a cop, and I swear to God, if I find you in the streets, I'm gonna put and he says listen, he told his brother one day in front of everybody. He's the younger brother, he says, I'm gonna become a cop and I swear to God,

if I find you in the streets, I'm gonna put your ass in jail and I love you. So he became a cop because his older brother was a criminal and he was in and out of jail. He was sick of seeing what he was doing to his mother. So the younger brother took the pain of mom crying every single night because the older brother being a criminal,

he said, I'm gonna be a cop. Till today's 44 years old, he's a cop. So there has to be, if these stories are true and they're emotionally connected to the kid, or someone's going to be a lawyer, someone's going to say, I'm going to dedicate my life to this. Look at Hunter Moore. Hunter Moore is the Revenge of Porngeye. I don't know if you follow this guy's story.

His Netflix documentary came out. The most hated man on the internet. The most hated man on the internet. If you don't know this guy, he would get boyfriends that would send the nude photos of their girlfriends, X's, and he would put it on a website. He was making a bunch of money on this website. And eventually, a bunch of people are begging him

to take their pictures down. I'm not taking your pictures down. Your X gave it to you. Good for you, LOL. You can't do shit with you. See, I can get more pictures from your X about you. And all this stuff, he eventually gets caught, goes to jail, right?

And Anderson Cooper's interview in this in this guy 11 years ago. Do you feel guilty about it? Not really. Do you know what eventually happens? A mother, okay, named Charlotte Laws, found her daughter's new picture under his website, asked him to take it down. He never took it down.

She's the reason he went to jail. One mother dedicated her life to take this guy down and she won. So if all of these stories are true about the Clintons, if all of these stories are true, about the Epstein's, if all these stories are true and families are connected, suicides, people love those people, kids love their dad, their mom, someone's got to do something about it. How come nobody has? Well, in the case of the person you're talking about,

did the guy running that website have major intelligence connections, did he have major connections to some of the wealthiest, most powerful people on Wall Street? Probably not. Probably not, right? So, you know, it really depends on, you know, who you're going up against.

I don't know about that. I think if something like that happened, a kid would dedicate their lives to politics, office, being a billionaire, being an influential person. But again, I think it depends on the kid. Take it like Ron Brownson. Ron Brownson went into politics and was just like his dad, sort of, because Ron Brown was pretty corrupt.

He did end up getting killed because he agreed to cooperate, but only because he was at the end of, they had a lot of stuff on him, right? Who's Ron Brownson? I think he's Ron Brown Jr. I can't remember, but he ended up being a corrupt politician even after what happened to his father,

and I think I can't remember exactly. I think it was a much small, he wasn't national politics. It was either like city or state or something, but he ended up getting caught for some, I don't know if it was bribery, but something along that. This specifically I don't remember,

but he just kind of went to the same business his dad was in and maybe he was like, well, you know, maybe something along that. This specifically, I don't remember, but he just kinda went to the same business, his dad was in and maybe, he was like, well, maybe something happened to my dad, but I saw how my dad was before and he made a lot of money and I wanna make a lot of money. Let me ask you this, let me ask you this. Let's just say you are, I'm gonna come to you. You are the daughter of any of these guys,

okay, that were suicide, okay? Hypothetically, we were suicide. But I would fight, but I don't know if everyone's like me, you know what I mean? Some people are like, but what would you do? Let's just say I want to use you. So what would you do? Say say? Say you're one of those people. It's not like you're gonna go be a UFC fighter find these guys in the streets and fight them. No, how would you how would you go about doing it? You're a 22 year old daughter of one of these guys at the Clintons Epstein's they did something to him or your the sister of one of the I would try girls that Epstein's, they did something to them, or the sister of one of the girls that Epstein picked up

and he put on this island or the house, what would you do? I would try and get people in media to tell my story, right? But what if the media won't touch the story that you're trying to get out there? Will they have someone? You would, maybe, but not a big podcast, and we'll bigger podcasts pick it up. I don't know, I think it depends. Again, why not a big podcast, and we'll bigger podcasts pick it up.

I don't know. I think it depends. Again, you know, why did mainstream media not want to cover the fact that Epstein went to the White House with Clinton 17 times? Why did they not cover the fact that, you know, last December, the picture finally came out of Bill Clinton and Jeffrey Epstein's shaking hands in 1993, but they claimed for, you know, a couple of years that they didn't meet until after Clinton was out of office and wasn't president anymore. Why will they not look into the fact that Bill Gates says, oh, we only met for the first time in 2011,

but there's documentation that they knew each other at least a decade prior, if not longer. You know, there, you know, I think there are people who will try and fight, but sometimes, you know, what if someone does try and go on a podcast and then they get a knock at the door and it's like, you can't talk to people anymore unless you want what happened to your father to happen to you or something like that. So you would eventually be silenced as well?

Well, I don't know, but I think, oh, you mean about my work? I'm saying you, no, no, no, no, no, I'm saying you're the daughter, you're the sister of somebody. I think some people, what if they try and do something and they get threatened? Okay, so what happens to you? What happens to you? Audience, if you're listening, happens to you. Comment in this, what do you do?

Some happens to you, okay? Somebody did this to your mom, okay? Somebody did this to you. What would your long-term plan be? I'm asking a very serious question here. Yeah, I'm glad you used the word long term. Because I think short term, everyone's gonna be filled with anger and vengeance.

You're not gonna get to short term. This has to be a long term plan. Exactly, that's my plan. And it's gotta be through career, law, politics, business. What would you do? You're gonna have to dedicate your life to revenge, is what it comes to. You're like Batman at that point.

Right, short term, everyone's gonna be angry and upset and wanna get vengeance. Can't do nothing. But Batman has the resources, right? He's Bruce Wayne, he's super rich, he's got all this technology, he's got this big company. And behind him,

what if you're just a regular person, what kind of resources do you have? What if no one wants to have you on their podcast? What if he can't get anyone to tell your story? Yeah, as emotional and as distraught and as revenge-stricken as you are, at some point, most people or most people are just gonna be like,

fuck it, it's not worth it. And they give up. But I mean, think about Esther Salas, who we talked about a little bit more. Her, her, her, her, you know, her son's killed, her husband's almost killed. How are you going to rule in that case? As a judge. As a judge. What are you going to do?

They've already taken the most important thing from you. But what's the purpose of life at that point, though? You know, what is the, you know at that that point of the game like? You know, I think what they're trying to say is don't fuck with the mob. Yeah, I don't know about that. No, I think there are certain people that don't roll that way. I think there are certain people. I think there are certain people, but is that everyone?

I don't think it's everyone. I think there's some people maybe like you like me like you that would fight and do everything. But I don't know if that's everyone, you know what I mean? Some people just want to be left alone. That's the rule. We all watch the man on fire. That's kind of what this reminds me of. I don't remember the exact premise of that, but it was pretty bad. I'm actually not going that direction. I'm actually not going that direction to seek vengeance to kill, But because in that situation, he didn't kill the brother. You know, the devil, he didn't kill the brother.

He shot the brother's hand, and then he gave up his own life in exchange for the court of fanny, right? Because Greasy was the Denzel, and he gave the exchange to find that. If she's alive, go ask him what she calls her teddy bear. Hey, what do you call the teddy bear? I call the teddy bear Greasy. She calls the teddy calls the teddy bear greasy boom that's the point of the story

changes right inflection point where you're like oh my god she's alive okay what do you want I want your life but I don't know like all I'm thinking about is if all this stuff is true and it doesn't be kind by the way not all of it needs to be true. If 20% of it is true, would all these personalities we hear about suicide and killing, I don't need 100% of it to be true. I need 10% to be true, I need 20% to be true. And they're not held accountable for it. So if this is all about the Clintons, right?

Let's keep in mind a lot of people that are on this alleged suicide list are people that work with the Clintons and also were involved in allegedly a lot of shady stuff. So is there an element of dirt to that as well? You see what I'm saying? Let's see, someone like Vince Foster, right? Allegedly Vince Foster's sister, there was some money exchange and stuff before his death

and maybe what if the broader family of tied up in this stuff too? Do you think they're going to fight if someone gets killed that's close to them? If they're also sort of involved in this shady world? I mean, no, no, it's not. I agree that it's not everybody, but you know what you're talking about, the Clintons, it's not like everyone that's on that suicide list is equally innocent as others, you know. So it gets really complicated and convoluted. But again, I don't think, you know, unfortunately, you know, I didn't do a lot of research into

their families and what they've done since then. I do know that like, there's that mom from the kid that was killed near Mina, Arkansas that's been fighting for since the 80s. Yeah. Really. And there are some people like that, but is everyone on that list gonna be like that? You know, it's hard to know. And it's hard to know in this case too.

I mean, you take someone like Jeffrey Epstein being suicidal, there's his brother, but his brother seems to have been involved in a lot of the stuff. And maybe he just doesn't want to get axed by the same person that might have axed his brother, you know? What do you think it would take to get Jelaine to speak?

And actually speak speak. What do you think it would take? I don't think it'll happen. Yeah, but what do you think it would take to get Jelaine to speak and actually speak speak? What do you think of it? I don't think it'll happen What what do you all the money in the world wouldn't do it? No, I don't think it would have to be money I think there would have to be mass disclosure of what was actually going on and then maybe she'd talk about it But she won't be the first to talk about it in a way so so she's in a very vulnerable situation She got moved sort of like to a country club prison, probably because she agreed to not talk, right? Yeah, so you think she's done, done. She'll never talk.

It will not get anything out. Oh, no way, no way. Don't you think her talking helps her set herself free if she does talk because it's now out in the open? I don't think it is all out in the open though. No, if she does, though, if she does actually go out there and say, I don't know, it's hard to know. She thinks her father was murdered.

She thinks Jeffrey Epstein was probably murdered. So, I mean, I don't think. At this point, again, was the purpose of living. So why not talking open? You'd have to ask her. I mean, she thinks maybe she thinks she'll get another couple of years. Well, can you text her?

I know you guys are in text and get terms. Yeah, not exactly. See, see what she, so, okay, so now let's go to the Trump situation. So, you openly talk a lot about Trump. It's not like you're holding back, because you're not a Republican, you're not a Democrat. I don't even think politically I want to put you

anything, you're just objective about everything. What do you think Trump's involvement is was this? Well, I definitely think, you know, mainstream media likes to focus on either Epstein Trump or Epstein Clinton. I think the Epstein Clinton relationship is far more damaging than the Epstein Trump relationship. I think the Epstein Trump relationship was mainly a social one. I don't really, you know, the Clinton stuff is, I mean, we just kind of got into that and it's pretty wild, right?

The Epstein Trump stuff doesn't seem to be that crazy in comparison. But you have to keep in mind to, like, I think a lot of people, whether you love them or you hate them, you end up sort of coming at his background and who he is from sort of a biased standpoint, if you're on one of those two polarized extremes that we have today in the United States, right? Starting Trump, percent. Yeah, yeah, totally.

So as I see it, you know, I wrote a lot about his mentor, Roy Cone, and that kind of world, and that's the person who supposedly taught him the art of the deal. And we talked a little bit earlier about this favor bank system. Unsavery alliances, you're working in real estate, the cement concrete, it's mob dominated companies. You gotta make unsavory alliance. This is to make your business work. And you know, this is a guy, you know, Trump is a guy that inherited a real estate empire

already there. He obviously wants it to succeed. So he's going to continue that same system, right? This is to make your business work. And you know, this is a guy, you know, Trump is a guy that inherited a real estate empire already there. He obviously wants it to succeed. So he's going to continue that same system, right? And he's going to continue making those same alliances and do what he can to be a businessman and do it in his mind is, you know, be successful, right? So I think that's sort of how you get, you know,

the Trump we have today. But then again, you have Trump have a major bankruptcy in the early 90s. The bank that rescues him is Ross Child Inc., which is the Wall Street branch of the European banking family. And that particular bank was also very close to Robert Maxwell. It was also very close to a guy named Sir James Goldsmith. That's also one of these corporate raiders from this period of time in the 80s.

And actually, Jeffrey Epstein had a relationship with him. Goldsmith is early, is like 1973, 1971, somewhere in that ballpark. So that connection goes very far back, actually. But Ross Child Inc., the guy that was in charge of it was a Robert Peary, I believe his name is. And so Robert Peary decided to specifically recruit sometime in the 1980s, Max Wolland Goldsmith,

and I think another associate of Maxwell. And this is coming from the New York Times, by the way, as to sort of help them grow their mergers and acquisitions business. That was, it was the Ross Child family sort of saw Ross Child Inc. as sort of a neglected branch of their banking empire, thank you. And they wanted, they tasked this Robert Peary guy with sort of growing it and developing it. And so he brought in Maxwell and these guys, right?

And so this is one of the banks that's responsible for Robert Maxwell's deal with Mac Millen, for example. And Mac Millen is believed to really be the way that Robert Maxwell got his foot first in the door of a, in New York City specifically, because of their, you know, interests there, Macmillan's interests there. And so then you have that same bank that's very tied up with Robert Maxwell and these

characters rescue Trump from bankruptcy. So if you're watching this, if you think this message needs to be heard by others, give it a thumbs up and share with others because that's going to help with the algorithms. If you think this is a message and we're going give the link store book as well at the end, but you know why I don't believe he has anything to link and the media would love to find something with him and Epstein because if you did, you would have never done this.

On the debate stage, Trump pulls out a stunt and brings out, you know, the ladies that he brought up, I'm sure you remember this when he brought Apollo Jones and Kathleen Wiley and Juanita, Broadway, there's no way you do that if you have any link to Epstein. Because if you do this a hundred times more of this is coming back to you.

Totally, well like I mentioned earlier, the Epstein Clinton relationship far more damaging than the Epstein Trump relationship. So if it's Trump versus Clinton, who's going to want to bring up Epstein first? Really neither of them, I think. Because again, this unsavory alliance system, it looks like Trump sort of did that to an extent, you know, with Epstein, but like I sort of touched on earlier, it seems like he was closer to the Maxwell orbit of stuff, right?

And that maybe because of this bank, that maybe because he was on the lady Galein and had sort of these, the stuff with allegedly with Simeon Mogulovich or Robert Maxwell business partner and organized crime guy and all this stuff. But again, unsaved real alliances, you know, you have it in order to be on top in that dog eat dog world, you know, where Trump inhabits, right, in New York City, you know, maybe you have to do some things that aren't so nice, right, in New York City, you know, maybe you have to do some things that aren't so nice, right? It's a challenge. It's a challenging thing because once you come into fame and money, you get invited to parties all the time.

And you don't know what party you're going because typically here's how to party invitation sounds like. The party invitation goes and says There's gonna be a lot of who's who's at this yacht party. It's a monoco style pop yacht party. It's a party being hosted at XYZ's house and you're like, oh, good go. I'll go to the party. But then you go to the party and in next thing, you know, pictures are being taken and in afterwards, hey, such and such was at this person's part,

dude, I just got an invite. I don't know anybody at these parts. It's hard to know, but you know but you gotta follow the money, right? That's a different story. Following the money is a different story. Once you do business with somebody, that's a different story than you're invited to party. But sometimes, there's even a picture

with Jelaine Maxwell Elon Musk. So, hey, look at the picture here with them. I don't know if you've seen this one or not. Sure, sure, from 2014, I believe. Yeah, so he's at a party. Well, she took pictures with a lot of people, even like Robert F. Kennedy Jr. took pictures with her, but there, as far as I understand,

not really affiliated at all. So, I mean, she was a social butterfly. She was very much in these elite New York social circles. And, you know, that was really what she did. She was an influencer, right? And, you know, there are times when she used that to advance, you know, these, this particular side of things that we're talking about,

the shape of your stuff, but some of it may have just been social. Again, it's really hard to know. But if you look like I did at some of these articles that came out in mainstream media before Epstein was infamous, even arrested the first time, I mean, it's pretty clear that people in the social circles knew something was weird with Galeen Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein. There's talk, and I think it's a 2003 article

from UK media talking about how Galeen Maxwell, there were rumors that she would take young blonde girls and train them in sex techniques and how to use whips and stuff. Who would do this? A Galeen Maxwell. This is in like mainstream media before he was even first arrested.

If that's trickling into mainstream media reports, far back then, somebody knew, and someone was trying to say something, but, you know, didn't really do much, I guess. I have a question before. I want you to stay on Trump and all this, because I was shifting gears a little bit, but, you know, these days Kanye's in the news

for a lot of anti-Semitic comments. Sure. And, you know, I'm Jewish, so I, you know, You know these days Kanye is in the news for a lot of anti-Semitic comments, sure and You know, I'm Jewish so I you know You know anti-Semitism won hold on and then it's like I am actually hearing what he's saying And he's kind of just emphasizing his point about what's happening in black America And it's not so much against Jews and yet a very you know interesting dialogue with Lex Friedman Who's a very intellectual podcaster if if you've ever heard of him, very smart guy, very stoic and very rational, but he kind of, some of the things he was saying about Jews almost

triggered Lex to start cursing and get emotional. But my question stems from the point that they got at it is he's like, Jews didn't screw Euconia, individuals did. When you start calling out groups of people and not individuals, that will breed to hate. When you start calling out individuals, you can kind of work on the problem. But so as a Jew, I'm kind of grappling with that. Well, here's my question to this, though,

that you hear Rothschild's Jewish banking family, Epstein. Sure. Jewish, Elaine Maxwell, her family, Jewish. Okay. Right? Would you, you know, I, here's a thing. If you're talking about Israeli intelligence, do you think I'm talking about all Jewish people?

If I'm talking about the CIA, do you think I'm talking about all American people? Exactly. If I'm talking about Italian mobsters, do you think I'm talking about all Italian people, Jewish mobsters, all Jewish people? There's a conflation here, and I think there are some people who use that

to their advantage. Maybe before Epstein was arrested the first time, if he were to go talk about Leslie Wexner, organized crime allegations, allegations that he was involved with the murder of his tax attorney in 1985, you could have been called an anti-Semite by some people. But again, I don't think that's fair because then you're conflating someone involved in criminal activity with all Jewish people. I mean, if you're going to say that someone that's involved

with organized crime and conducts, is involved in criminal activity is the same as all Jewish people. Wouldn't that be more anti-Semitic? You're saying all Jewish people do that kind of stuff? I mean, I think it's complicated when you get to that level of stuff. And I think the ADL, too, a big extent, does that. And if you look at their funding, historically, you've people like the of stuff. And I think the ADL, too, a big extent does that. And if you look at their funding, historically,

you've people like the Bronfmans, I think Waxner's involved to an extent. I think he works with some other groups though, but some of these other groups that do make those allegations, you talk about powerful billionaires that may have been involved in criminal activity and like, oh, you're looking into that, you're an anti-Semite.

I mean, some of those groups are funded by these billionaires. Yeah, and that's ultimately what I'm saying. And they're using it as protection for themselves to the detriment of the broader Jewish community. Correct. And you look at someone like Leslie Wexner, he's a major funder of North American Jewish leadership, right? But he's a guy allegedly tied to organized crime.

And he's made very controversial comments about his spiritual persuasion, right? And so this is a guy that has been directing, you know, Jewish-American religious life for a very long time, and also very influential with Israeli government people through the Wexner Israel Fellows Program since the late 1980s. You know. And the Bronfen family is, they run a program called Burfray, Israel, which is a major, major. Yeah, that actually came out of this mega group that was created by Leslie Wexner,

and I believe Charles Bronfen in 1991. And it was Steinhart and Bronfen that got together and created Birthright Israel. And Michael Steinhart is someone who's very open about being an atheist and thinks that Jewish people should replace their faith with, you know, basically worship of the state. Of Israel and stuff.

So, you know, basically worship of the state, of Israel and stuff. So, you know, it's very complicated. So, you know, once you get into that kind of money and power and stuff, it does become complicated. And I think we should be able to talk about that stuff because if we can't, that's not good, right? People need to be held accountable if they're involved in organized crime. And any stuff, it doesn't matter what ethnic group you're a part of or what

religious group you're a part of you know where I'll eat well right or at least we're supposed to be so you should be equally accountable. Well respect you for doing what you're doing because what you're doing requires a lot of risk and you won't be talked about being a mother I'm glad last night you got eight hours of sleep. Yeah not quite a ten month old and so your today's energy by Whitney is sponsored by coffee just so And, you know, not quite. The 10 month old and, yeah. So. Today's energy by Whitney is sponsored by Coffee.

Just so you know, two cups of coffee today. But to wrap it up here for yourself, your profession, you could write about a lot of different things. That's not as risky as this. You're writing about something, a topic that's very, very risky. How's your husband feel about you doing this? Does he sit there and say, baby, we got two kids, what are you doing? He and I do the same stuff.

He's in the same business as well. So he's all four. He's like, you got your true believers and this is what you're committing to for the rest of your life. We have to fight for a better world. Yeah. We have to fight for a better world for our kids. What concerns your long term?

Oh man, I mean, there's a lot of stuff right now that really freaks me out. I guess I would say, especially in the US, this war on domestic terror stuff is very concerning when you have the President of the United States giving a major speech and basically labeling a large segment of the country, potential domestic terror is just because they support a different political candidate. And that's coming from a person that doesn't like Trump. You're not a Trump person. Oh, no, no, no.

But I think there's, I have a lot of concerns, yeah, about the direction this country is going. But really, a lot of the world is in a very complicated position right now. And the question is, who are making the supposed solutions of this problem? A lot of the big issues of today, right, we're being told, oh, they're so urgent, we have to solve them immediately.

Here's the solutions, let's implement them, but a lot of people aren't looking at what those solutions are who made them, if they're really gonna benefit as all. It's all about urgency, but really the domestic terror stuff, it concerns me because they're basically some of the policy papers for that from the Biden administration sort of conflate things that go against the government narrative as national security threats.

And what happens if that ends up going to its logical conclusion? And they say stuff like you say stuff online that makes people disagree with each other, that's a national security threat. Okay, so we all have to agree. Everyone in the US has to agree about what the government narrative

or your a national security threat or what you're saying is a national security threat and you can't be allowed online. You can't be part of the public discourse. You know, democracy requires that we have all sides heard and the more you start stifling, not just like one side, but just anyone that doesn't agree with the government, we are going to get to a dark place very quickly. And that worries me.

What happens once that takes place? You know, I live in Chile and South America. There was a government like that in Chile not that long ago. People still remember it. And it's not pretty. It's never happened really in the US before. I don't think people really realize what all that involves. What was the situation in Chile like?

There was a US-sponsored coup d'etat in 1973 that installed Pinotché, it was a military dictator, and basically mass murder, mass disappearing of dissidents that was enabled actually, but I see it the CIA of something called Operation Condor. Our government, our intelligence apparatus, a lot of the people I write in the book, designed domestic dissidents disappearing programs

and protocols that were used by foreign governments. What happens if someday they decide to turn that stuff on us domestically? What do you think the war on domestic terror is? It's designed by these same people. I ran Contra, Oliver North. He created something called main core, which was a database of U.S. domestic dissidents that were going to be rounded up in the event of a vaguely defined national emergency.

They've tried this before. Will they get away with it? Are they trying to do that now? This domestic terror stuff, if you follow it to its roots, you look at that stuff going on with the 80s, I ran Contra, the aftermath of Oklahoma City, stuff that was going on after 9-11. There is a faction in our government that likes that type of government that they've installed in places like Chile and other places around the world.

And I think there is a fight in our national security state apparatus between that faction and other people and that that faction wants to bring that style of government here to the United States. Is this what that Trump prefers to as the deep state? Well yeah I guess so but I think Trump in order to be in power has made some sort of alliance with the deep state to an extent. I mean in the sense that he was able to sort of you know not be JFK'd right right? But I think at the same time, not necessarily maybe some factions of it to get in power. I mean, in order to be

a presidential nominee of one of the two parties, you have to make again unsavory alliances, but I don't think it's, again, I don't think the deep states are monolith, right? I don't think it's one group, one guy that I'll agree with each other. You're gonna have different factions in there. It's gonna hurt you, believe me, because most of them hate this guy. No, a lot of them hate most of them, I would say hate this guy. The rush of gate stuff, all those guys, yeah.

Sure, I think we can call that the deep state, but again, this is not a monolithic group. You're talking about people that all they care about really is expanding their money and power and sometimes they're gonna butt heads with each other. Sometimes they're going to come together. Sometimes they're going to be at each other's throats. It evolves a lot.

When it comes to talking about what exactly happened during Trump's first term, I mean, it's very complicated, but the extreme resistance he got from mainstream media or even the intelligence service and all that stuff. I mean, there was a lot of really crazy stuff going on, right? But what? Remember that one interview that he did where he's like, when they basically said, they were talking about Putin and MBS and Saudi Arabia

when he said, well, you think the US is that innocent, right? Calling out a sense to what you say. That's hard to say, and US politics today, it's really hard to be a big time politician in this country unless you perpetuate sort of a fairytale narrative about what the US government is and has done. And the reality is it's anything but that. Yeah, totally.

Yeah. I mean, listen, it's, by the way, has anybody yet threatened your life or not yet? You're safe. You haven't had any weird emails. Well, I mean, everyone I think it's weird emails, because it's the internet. Whether they're people that are threatening you or just saying all sorts of crazy stuff, I mean, whatever. But I'm not really worried about it because I think a lot of what we're seeing right

now is on one level sort of a spiritual or energetic battle in a sense. And I think that if you are afraid, you're giving these people power over you. If you're afraid of them. So I think you're commitment to what's good about humanity and what you're giving these people power over you. If you're afraid of them, so I think you're commitment to what's good about humanity and what you're fighting for, what we enjoy in life, our future, our children, all that stuff, your commitment to that has to be total. I'll go on. When is your birthday?

Just sitting. October. October what? 17th. OK, that makes me. You guys are one day apart. Or a day apart, you can't. By the way, just for the record public service announcement, I think it's fair to say Whitney Patrick and I, we have zero plans of

suicide. This is not anything we're thinking of. We got to give that disclaimer out there. Just fun. Well, people are afraid about that. And I think that's why more people don't come forward. But I think in today's world, you know, it's much cheaper for them to just call me a conspiracy theorist and smear me than to hire someone to like take me out, you know what I mean? Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, so once again, I appreciate you for coming out. This was fantastic. I think we need another couple hours of volume.

Audience, if you're listening to this, if you were fascinated by this, you're in the middle of it, my suggestion shared a hell out of this video with others and just ask them, what do you think about what Whitney has to say? And then we're going to put the link below to both books, to order both books, volume one, and volume two. Tyler, if you can put it in the chat as well as at the top of the comment section and let's pin it to the top so people can go order her book. And we'll in the description side, we'll put the website that it can come and find you as well.

Sure, I think I just say so. Two volumes, I should probably explain the difference between them. Volume two is the bulk of the Epstein Leslie Wextenegroline Maxwell material. But if you're not familiar with some of the things we talked about today, BCCI, Iran Contra, you want to know more about the history of Roy Cohn, Robert Keith Gray, Bill Casey, some of these guys that came up. You'll need to read volume one to understand the big picture. I mean, you can read volume two and get a lot of the stuff about Epstein out of it, but

if you want to know the broader history and how long this has been going on in our country, I would recommend you read volume one, but volume one is a lot denser and it's a lot more, you know, it's kind of work to read because it's a dense. You're almost saying start with two. You're almost saying start with two. No, well, I would personally start with one. and it's a lot more, you know, it's kind of work to read because it's a dance. You're almost saying start with two. You're almost saying start with two. No, I would personally start with one. If you want to, because a lot of people like to go chronological,

but some people got volume one, we're like, where's Epstein, you know, so I just wanted to let people know. That's a good disclaimer. Folks, if you enjoy us having more guests like this, and this is the first time you're coming on this podcast because someone shared it with you, and you support us asking these questions,

have any of these steps of guess, please subscribe to the channel and click on the alert button. Having said that thank you so much for coming out. We may have a surprise podcast coming soon. Stay with us. We'll let you know if it does happen. Take care everybody. Bye bye bye bye bye.