PBD Podcast - “Trump Would’ve Won Without Musk” - Ian Bremmer DEFENDS Davos, Deep State & Global Elite Agendas | PBD Podcast | Ep. 542

Episode Date: February 3, 2025

Patrick Bet-David sits down for an interview with Ian Bremmer, geopoliticalscientisit and founder of Eurasia Group. Bremmer, a World Economic Forum speaker, gives insights into the WEF’s annual Davos meeting, Klaus Schwab, Trump’s 2024 election win, and the Too 10 global risks of 2025. ---- 👕 GET THE LATEST VT MERCH: ⁠https://bit.ly/3BZbD6l⁠ 📕 PBD'S BOOK "THE ACADEMY": ⁠https://bit.ly/41rtEV4⁠ 📰 VTNEWS.AI: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/3OExClZ⁠ 🎙️ FOLLOW THE PODCAST ON SPOTIFY: ⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4g57zR2⁠ 🎙️ FOLLOW THE PODCAST ON ITUNES: ⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4g1bXAh⁠ 🎙️ FOLLOW THE PODCAST ON ALL PLATFORMS: ⁠https://bit.ly/4eXQl6A⁠ 📱 CONNECT ON MINNECT: ⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4ikyEkC⁠ 👔 BET-DAVID CONSULTING: ⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/3ZjWhB7⁠ 🎓 VALUETAINMENT UNIVERSITY: ⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/3BfA5Qw⁠ 📺 JOIN THE CHANNEL: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4g5C6Or⁠ 💬 TEXT US: Text “PODCAST” to 310-340-1132 to get the latest updates in real-time! ABOUT US: Patrick Bet-David is the founder and CEO of Valuetainment Media. He is the author of the #1 Wall Street Journal Bestseller “Your Next Five Moves” (Simon & Schuster) and a father of 2 boys and 2 girls. He currently resides in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida.

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you can make your investing steps count. And if you're like me and think a TFSA stands for Total Fund Savings Adventure, maybe reach out to TD Direct Investing. Your New York Times bestseller, you've been shown in many different meetings with some people that would be considered globalists. You've spoken at World Economic Forum multiple times. Some people would consider them deep state. I've gone for 15 years. I can assure you that no running of the world is being done by the world economic function

I see the need for a great reason. You don't think that's a little weird? No. Really? You don't think that's a little weird? You're a smart guy. No, I am a smart guy. I ask questions. I think globalization is good. I think all of you guys are bought on this side You guys are for sale and the idea that that's true only of one party, not the other, is insane. Tear apart my argument. Trump sees that he has a tool, and he scattershot, uses it everywhere. I think that is one of the most irresponsible decisions by a president I have ever seen in my life, honestly.

And why is he doing it? Because he wants to show he can? Do you know what happened to the Democratic credibility to me right here It got her not her completely. This is not her. This is the first time in history. It's shattered China today They have advanced technologies. They're ahead of us. I don't know if you can say it because I know I'm gonna upset some no no no will be cancer dinner will be canceled look a couple you I can say whatever I want I can I don't know I can. I want to protect you. No. Very interesting guest today. 20 half hour conversation. Ian Bremmer, geopolitical expert. For the last 26 years, he comes out with the top 10 global risks every

year this guy's gotten tens of millions of views one of his TED talks got 10 plus million views you know spoken at World Economic Forum many many times he's been in that circle many many times I asked him about cloud swap I asked him about World Economic Forum his answer is very different I asked him what do you think about the guy that talks about a great reset what do you think about the guy that talks about a great reset? What do you think about the fact that COVID happens in March of 2020, four months later Klaus Schwab writes a book called The COVID Reset or The Great Reset, COVID-19 Great Reset, and he had his own opinions on it.

We talked about Trump, the relationship with Musk was very, very... the way he explained the dynamics of how he views Trump and Musk leverage each other's relationship, I've probably not heard broken down by anybody the way he did. This guy's a certified genius at 15 years old, he went to Tulane College. By 16 years old, the college sends him to Russia and he's at USSR and he's staying right next to all the main events in Moscow with everything that's happening. And very rarely I do a two and a half hour podcast

because I got a meeting, I'm late to 30 minutes, but I really, really enjoyed this conversation and I hope you do as well with the one and only Ian Bremmer. My handshake is better than anything I ever signed, right here. You are a one on one? My son's right here. I don't think I've ever said this before. How you doing? I'm doing good, man.

Good? Yeah. In Armenia, two Armenians in a room. Happens, right? I mean, it's a miracle, but it does happen every once in a while. Yeah, I feel the connection already. See the connection as well. You know, obviously I've seen your stuff for many times, but I've never seen you in a room

that's so much fun. I've never seen you in a room that's so much fun. I've never seen you in a room that's so much fun. I've never seen you in a room that's so much fun. I've never seen you in a room that's so much fun. I've never seen you in a room that's so much fun. I've happen every once in a while. Yeah, I feel the connection already. See the connection as well. You know, obviously I've seen your stuff for many years. You know, you've done stuff that TEDx, TED Talks, 10 million views, you've always making new predictions every year, what's gonna happen, the risks, all that stuff. How does somebody wake up one day and say,

I wanna get into this space? How did it happen to you? So when I went to college, I was really young. I was 15. And I grew up with nothing. I grew up in the projects. I never traveled anywhere. I had a professor, this was back in 1986.

I had a professor that was leading a trip to the Soviet Union. This is when Gorbachev like first came in. This was before reform. This was like super evil Empire Reagan days, right? And I begged him, take me on this trip. And so here I am as a kid, finding myself halfway around the world,

behind the Iron Curtain, authoritarian regime, communism, crazy government, but meeting young people that in many ways are just like you and me. Fascinating. And then three years later the wall comes down. So I was very much, you know, very impressionable in the right place at the right time. The world was changing, felt like democracy was winning, it felt like our ideas were actually, you know, sort of becoming, you know, helping people all over the world.

And how could you not want wanna do something with that, be a part of that? So that's what inspired me to want to understand different people everywhere and try to do something with that. 15 years old, you go to Tulane. 15 years old, well it's not my fault. It's not like I said I wanna go to Tulane at 15.

15 years old, you're in a party town. What do you do? Where are you staying at? One, you lie about your age. Ha ha ha ha ha, right off the bat. Girls are not gonna date a 15 year old, and it wasn't like I was gonna troll high schools, right? No, so I mean I just pretended I was just 18, I pretended I was normal.

And then I joined a frat, and that didn't go so well. But I- What happened? They promised they weren't gonna haze and they lied. Yeah. And I couldn't really handle it. Yeah. So I quit.

But you know, when you're 15 in college and especially at a party school, the hard thing is not your grades and the classes. The hard thing is trying to find a way to actually be a normal kid. And so here I am by myself for the first time away from family and trying to learn how to socialize with people, how to just be normal.

And that took a lot of effort. How's mom handling you? Was mom like, you know, we're taking one of our kids to a soccer camp, right, for IMG. And he's gonna be there for a week. Does he stay at the school? Does he stay a week saying does he stay at the school, does he stay with us, does he stay at the campuses and I said how does mom handle you being gone at 15?

How does she do that? Because mom's Armenian. Yeah, mom's Armenian, my dad was German, died when I was four. Your dad died when you were four. Yeah, they met, they met, my dad was an enlisted man in the army and my mom was in high school, met on Revere Beach and she fell in love, quit high school, eloped with him because he was being sent out to Ecuador to be based

and she was an officer's wife. And so that was the background. So when he died, she went back to Boston, Chelsea, where her family was, and I mean, her life came crashing down, and I was her life, and then my brother later. Is that mom and dad there? That's mom and dad, yeah, that's right.

Yeah, there you go. Wow, four years old. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's happened to him? Cancer. And I mean. That's young. He was in his 40s, he was young 40s at the time. So you go into Tulane, can you pull up the Tulane picture

I just saw, you pulled it up. Oh my God. That was great seeing it. Really? That was, you were playing chess. Oh my God, that's a horrible photo. Seriously. That's a horrible photo.

You're playing chess. Look at those David Stockman glasses, look at the velour sweater. It's not good, I didn't know you were gonna do this to me. I didn't know you were gonna do this to me. That's cool. That is cool. I haven't seen that photo in years yeah so did you do a four-year program like you know in a two-year thing is that kind of what happened with you

because you were going through it faster did you do full I did the full four years but I traveled everywhere I mean I went to the Soviet Union a couple times I went to Japan I did my junior abroad and I went from nowhere growing up in Chelsea Massachusetts to traveling everywhere because there were all these to Japan, I did my junior year abroad, and I went from nowhere growing up in Chelsea, Massachusetts to traveling everywhere because there were all these opportunities. How old were you when you went to Russia? I would have been 16.

First time 16. You know, like, I don't know if you saw when Tucker went to interview Putin and he's explaining what the subways and all this stuff looks like, right? What was it for you? Impressionable kid, you're going there. What did you notice? Subways were incredible, of course.

And they're super, super deep underground. They were meant to be bomb shelters, all of this incredible marble, artistry, grandiose, I mean, communism, and it was meant to show the average Soviet citizen that this is Soviet power, it's accessible to everyone. But my first experience was very different from that. It's a funny story.

So this was the hotel cosmos, which was, excuse me, the Hotel Rossiya. I was at the cosmos as well, the Hotel Rossiya. And it was in Moscow. It was right off Red Square. And at the time it was the largest hotel in the world. It was where the Olympic athletes, the Americans, if Carter hadn't boycotted, would have been staying there. And so here I am, that's the hotel, the Hotel Rossia. You see the Kremlin in the background there on the left, and there's the river. So anyway, there I go, and there's 10 of us, 14 of us on the trip, all students from Tulane and our professor. were two to each room, these little single beds,

and you're trundling with your suitcase up the stairs, down these long hallways, and it was dark. And I was jet-lagged, I'd never been jet-lagged in my life before, I'm zonked out of my skull, I have no idea where I am. And I go to put the light on in the room, because it's dark, so it's a single bed, and there's a clip-on lamp

that is clipped to the little headboard on the back of my bed behind the pillow. And so I go to try to turn the knob on the lamp. There's no knob. It turns out that it's on the wire behind the headboard. So I break rule number one in the former Soviet Union, which is never put your hand someplace you can't see. I reach behind the headboard,

and as I go to turn on the light, it turned out that the plastic casing had been broken, eaten through. My finger went into the copper wires. I electrocute myself and pass out. Get out of here. Swear to God. 16 years old.

16 years old, my first 10 minutes in like this hotel in Moscow and I had passed out on the bed. And it just, you realize suddenly that okay, this is not like, in the United States, you eat an apple pie and it says caution and it's really hot. There are no fucking caution signs in the former Soviet Union, okay?

So it was just a real come to Jesus moment of, okay Ian, you're gonna need to like actually be a little more aware of your surroundings here. You're gonna have to like pay attention. First experience. First experience. What else was it for you? Like maybe when you left, you're on the flight back, you're talking to your roommate, what

are you telling them? I'm saying like what an incredible mind blowing all of these different places. I thought that communists were all the same. I thought like the Soviet Union, there were all going to be these mindless automatons that hated us. Turned out, I mean, you had Armenians, and you had Georgians, and Azeris, and Russians, and Ukrainians, and they had different parts of the Soviet Union, and they acted differently,

their culture was different, their languages were different. I mean, and some of it I had some personal and cultural connection with. It was nothing like what I heard in the newspapers, you know, what I read in the Boston Herald, you know, when I was growing up as a kid, it was nothing like what I heard in the newspapers you know what I read in the Boston Herald you know when I was growing up as a kid was nothing like that it was so much more rich. When's the last time you went back to Russia? Oh it would have been before the pandemic but not much before. So 2019-2018

yeah what was it like what was the biggest difference from 18 to 21 and 86? Oh I mean first of all just how much more money has come into these places, right? I mean a lot of these countries are you know now fully integrated into a global economy and so you've got you know that's another funny thing. My not my first trip to the Soviet Union, my second also was a student, right, undergraduate student a couple years, and I knew from my first trip there that they were super interested in all of these American consumer goods

and technology that they had no access to. I mean, so these were the days where you'd bring a pair of Levi's blue jeans and they'd wanna trade because they couldn't get them themselves. See, they wanted like a ballpoint pen, they couldn't get them. They wanted like anything that was decent, basic American branded stuff.

So I went to the, remember the Sharper image? Of course. So as a kid, I remember it was right off of Faneuil Hall in Boston, and that was a super fancy shop. You couldn't buy anything from there, but it's cool. You'd like all this fancy stuff. So I went there, I told them I was going to the Soviet Union, I said, would you give me like 100 of your catalogs

so that when I go and meet these kids, I can show them the stuff that Americans have that we could just buy, which I thought would blow their mind, right? I mean, like, you know, sort of capitalism, like behind the iron curtain. And so I get there, I remember one of the things that completely blew their mind.

This would have been in 88, 89. This is the second time you went. Second time I went as a student. And there was a cordless phone, right? So a home cordless phone. Sharper Image US. Sharper Image. Sharper Image US. It was, it floated and it was waterproof.

And it was so you could use it in your swimming pool. Now, imagine the orders of complete befuddlement that the average former Soviet would have with that concept. I mean, one, phones have wires. So how is it possible that you can be talking into this device that isn't physically connected? Secondly, what do you mean it floats? What are you talking about a swimming pool?

Like what you bring it with you to the commons? People know your own swimming pool that a lot of them, my aunt had, who was like perfectly middle class, had a swimming pool in her backyard. You could have used it there on your floaty right and that's all of that was completely inconceivable For an 18 year old kid in the Soviet Union, so that was kind of interesting. Yeah, I mean I remember in Iran I had never had we were told like rich people eat this fruit called on on us Okay, pineapple pineapple right? Yeah, and banana. So I'm like, oh man, one day, that'd be so freaking amazing.

So we would be, every once in a while we would get Nutella. And if you got Nutella, German Nutella would come in, let me tell you, we're fighting over Nutella. I mean, everybody's fighting to get it done, but we go to Germany, and for the first time I have, what do you call it. Yeah. Oh my god You never had I've never had 11 years old 11 years old first time I had banana Ian I'm like, I cannot believe they kept this away from me for 11 years

Yeah, and then I ate pineapple, you know, like full on they're cutting it not the one out of a can Yeah, and I'm eating this pineapple saying how sweet it is, right? So to and to and the innocence of a kid, you know Russia, you're seeing that phone flow in water, you don't have to worry about wireless. It's got to be a big deal to somebody like that that's seeing it. But let me ask you, as an impressionable kid, 86, 88, 89, you're going there versus now for yourself, majoring in political science or poli sci. And you're a brilliant kid.

At 15 years old, you're going to Tulane. It's not like you're very smart, you're very educated. What's changed for you politically from them? Like what events, because this is your world. You've been making predictions since I think I saw 2000. I think you started from 86, 88? 98, 27 years. So since 98, and then your predictions

been making every year. But what's evolved with you from the 1986, 1988, 1989, first time you went to Russia to today politically? Well, 89 was this incredible moment where the United States actually won. And won without a bullet being fired. One, not because our economy was better though it was, not because our military was stronger, though it was, but because all of these people behind the Iron Curtain

saw the way Americans and our allies lived, and said, we don't wanna tolerate the loss of these liberties. We wanna have freedoms. We wanna have free speech, we wanna have a free market, we the loss of these liberties. We want to have freedoms. We want to have free speech. We want to have a free market. We want to live like these people. And so our political system, our civil society,

was leading by example. And it was something that, I mean, if you think where we are today, when, I mean, so many people want to come to the United States, but no one outside the US would say, I want my political system to run like America's. Like, you just wouldn't say that today. But 35 years ago, you would, you would.

And I think that that was, for me, that was really inspirational. That that was something I was a part of. Like, I would say the Pledge of Allegiance when I was a kid every morning, and I would put my hand on my heart, and I knew it, and I would sing the Star-Spangled Banner. and those things all felt just like you were going through the motions when you're a kid in public school.

But when you then go to the Soviet Union, and when you see the wall come down, you see 15 republics become independent countries. And I was in Ukraine in 1992, and I was there for their first ever day of independence. Oh, wow. And you saw ethnic Russians and ethnic Ukrainians all come out in the hundreds of thousands in seven years. And I was there for their first ever day of independence. Oh wow. And you saw ethnic Russians and ethnic Ukrainians all come out in the hundreds of thousands

and celebrate the fact that they had independence from the Soviet Empire. Suddenly all those things that you did as a kid really mean something to you. They really inspire you. Like, oh, I'm proud to come from a system where I can do all of these things, where I can say all of these things. Proud to be an American. Absolutely. Where at least I know I'm free. Absolutely.

And has that level of being proud to be an American, is it the same as it was in 89 as it is today in 2025 for you? No. Why not? It's a little different. Tell me why. I'm very proud to be in a country where I believe that it is still patriotic, essentially patriotic, to say what you disagree with, to say when you think your political leaders

are making mistakes. And Lord knows, as an entrepreneur who started his own firm from nothing and with no money, there's no other country in the world that you could have done that. So I'm enormously grateful to have been so lucky that I could be born in a country where we could do the kind of things that you and I do.

That's incredible. But I'm a little sad that we have not lived up to the promise of 1989 in 2025. Not the role of the dollar, not the strength of 1989 in 2025. Not the role of the dollar, not the strength of our military, not the fact that we have the best universities everyone wants to come to, but the fact that people don't look up

to our political system, the fact that we're so divided in this country right now. That is something that I'm not proud of. I don't like how divided we are. Were you proud to be an American in 24? When's the last time you would say, the last time I was proud to be an American in 24? When's the last time you would say, the last time I was proud to be an American, like 89 was when?

Because I'm still proud to be an American. I get that, but that level. But like 89, it probably would have been, oh definitely after 9-11. Okay. Definitely after 9-11. I was in New York, I saw the second tower go down. You saw the whole city and the whole country come together. And we did some things

that we shouldn't have done and we over egged all of that. But in terms of how the Americans felt about the values that we stand for and not tolerating being attacked by nihilists that just wanted to tear everything down, that made me really proud absolutely. So you know you said you said divide it where we are today as a nation being divided. This is this is a the world you've been in since like you said 98 right you've been doing this 27 years. How do we get there? Because like you said in 911 when 911 happened I was working on Morgan Stanley Dean-Wooder.

I had just started a day before, Glendale, Morgan Stanley Dean-Wooder. 9-11 happens, you're seeing in New York, no one cared if you're a Republican, Democrat, independent, white, black, Hispanic, Puerto Rican, look man, where's your kid, let's go look for him. Where's your daughter, let's go look for her. Where's your husband, where's your wife, where's your this?

It was a whole different thing, right? What's gotten it to be where it's at today? And do you see us going back to being united again? Not soon. I mean honestly not soon, but I'm an optimist I think it's incredible that we're here. So of course it's possible. I think there are three big things that have happened one is class division and mobility have become a lot harder in the US. So, I mean, back in the 80s and 90s, the United States had some of the greatest class mobility

of any advanced industrial democracy. Today, it has some of the least. So you can predict a person's wealth in the United States on the basis of their parents' wealth much more than you can in other countries like in the UK or Germany or Japan or South Korea. That's not the American dream. So the fact that a lot more young Americans today are not confident that they will have the opportunities that their parents or their grandparents or you or I have have had that's one reason. I think second is identity politics. I think

there was an enormous amount of immigration that came to the United States without a feeling that American leaders were caring about the people that were already here. That's particularly true on the illegal immigration side but I think it's true generally. The Europeans have already gone through that, and there's now consensus in Europe around that issue. The Americans are still very divided on that issue. And then the third is algorithmic.

The third is the breakdown in media and our information space, talk radio, cable news, social media, and increasingly AI, so that people around the world get their information in very, very segmented and fragmented ways that tear us apart. I think that those are the three biggest reasons why the United States today feels so much more divided

than it did when you and I were growing up. So you're putting three as social media. Three is a different word. You said, what was the word you used for the last one? I said algorithmic. Algorithmic, right. But I mean, even before that, I mean, you remember when you and I were kids,

the conceit of advertising is that 50% of advertising dollars are completely wasted. We just don't know what 50%. So you just throw money at the wall and you had three big networks and everyone listened to the same networks, they got the same news. So even before social media,

when you think about how people started segmenting when it was Lou Dobbs on CNN, one of the first that really started segmenting, or when it was in a Rush Limbaugh on talk radio, and definitely social media has done that, has amplified that in an exponential way, but this has been coming for a while now. So you said something very interesting.

When you said for Russia in 89, USSR when Soviets saw, hey, do people want the same freedom that they have? Like when I lived in Iran, the way we got movies was bootleg. You didn't get movies because we didn't have access to movies They're not gonna show you the movies. You're gonna see the movies or whatever You know they were showing us there, but we would see the movies in like wow. That's what America looks like

I want the American dream. I want to have something like that What what was the mechanism or method that Russia saw what was happening to America where Russians revolted? Against their people because you'll hear the story about Reagan goes to, you know, meet with Gorbachev and he's like, hey, what can we do? So look at your people, they're all driving the same cars, all this, they're like, look at our stuff,

look what we got going on, you gotta bring this here. Where it was almost as if Gorbachev was open to the idea. He was. Okay. He was. So, but, so was it more the people pushing the change or was it more Gorbachev saying, hey, man, I just feel like if I want to be a better leader for my people, I think we have to open it up like they did. I would say, I mean, much as I want to say it was the people pushing for change, and

certainly, you know, you had for years and years and years, the Americans standing tall with those captive nation parades and all of the people behind the Iron Curtain that wanted independence and wanted freedom. And we had dissidents that would get to the United States illegally, right? And they would, you know, become these incredibly inspirational stories about, you know, how much better it was in the US and how repressive it was in the Soviet Union. Um, And definitely,

like, there were a lot of big demonstrations that happened first in the Eastern Bloc countries and then in the Baltics, which, you know, had independence more recently, and then in Ukraine, and then even in places like Azerbaijan, Central Asia, right, you'd see it. But, you know, after that happened, Gorbachev started leading into it. When Gorbachev first became general secretary of the Communist Party, the first things he did were not reform. The first thing he did was like the anti-alcohol campaign. He was kind of like Xi Jinping in the early days, right? He was like no no we just need we need more control. And then when he realized that this wasn't

working, that the economy was falling apart, that they were falling desperately behind the Americans and there was no way to really fix it, he decided to go full on experimental reforms. And he did three different things, right? First, he opens the economy so that people can actually start their own businesses. They can experiment with cooperatives.

And that was perestroika, that was restructuring. And then he created openness in the information space. Glasnost, right? And then he did a third thing, which was self-accounting. He devolved power to these local republics and let the Armenians have control for local Armenia and let the Azeris have control for local Armenia. It's called Khosrajot. And he did those three things simultaneously, which is incredible for the people of the former Soviet Union,

but I mean was just giving away the keys to the kingdom, in terms of the Soviets no longer had the ability to repress, to impose control in a way that say in Iran today the Iranians are, even though the Iranian people are desperate to have freedoms, the Iranian people are desperate to be independent from the Islamic Republic, but the military in Iran has absolutely zero willingness to give away that kind of power, Gorbachev did that.

Well, so this is where I'm going, the reason why I'm asking this question. So do you think, because 89, no social media, you got TV, a couple channels you got in Iran, we have two channels, and it's both ran by the government. So they control propaganda, what to tell you, Macbeth, how terrible America is, and the evil empire and all this other stuff.

But you had Voice of America that they were able to get. We couldn't get it. We only had the two channels that we could get in Iran. But today you got social media. When you're seeing social media where kids have access to it in different parts of the world and some countries are not happy about the fact that some social media platforms are available there. Do you think that's maybe the reason why some countries are just sitting there saying, you

seen what happened with Trump in 2016 and him coming out with the campaign that he had and was successful, him beating a Hillary Clinton type of a caliber person which was this is not going to happen. This is David versus Goliath. Do you think this is why you're seeing a lot of Millets? Do you think this is why you're seeing the Orban? Do you think this is why you're seeing Maloney? Do you think this is why you're seeing folks that are kind of seeing what's happened in

America where other countries, citizens are like look, I kind of want that. That makes sense to me. These other ideas are not making sense to me. So it's harder for the establishment today to keep control because of social media versus what it was in 89. Oh absolutely. I think that Bolsonaro doesn't win in Brazil in the previous cycle if it's not for Facebook. I think that a lot of these leaders, that these populist anti-establishment leaders, many on the right, some on the left, I mean, you look at AMLO and now Shane Baum in Mexico,

same basic playbook, right? Which is the establishment is corrupt and entrenched, there's a deep state, they don't care about you, we're gonna do something completely different, that's how they win. And I think that social media and the ability to communicate directly with the people with comparatively limited amount of funds available is a completely, it's a game changer for,

and it undermines the establishment in a lot of these places. So who, so the establishment, if we go through themselves, like there's a, I want to get your thoughts on this here, where the concern is. One of the things that Trump did, you saw Jim Acosta just got fired, whatever you want to call him, stepping away from CNN, booted, whatever you want to call it. It's a way of saying, look, if you're going to quit, we're okay with it. What do you want to do? Go ahead. We don't have to pay the severance and all this other stuff. So he walks. Okay. But he's the OG guy with fake news, right? Your fake news, your fake news. And then Trump started saying,

fake news, fake news, fake news, fake news, fake news. And then, oh shit, he exposed a company Ted Turner started that was a very successful company, CNN. And now they're 400 million dollars down there, let them go off 200 million people, 200 employees, MSNBC, now for sale, CNN, now for sale, Fox, top 500 of 500 shows since I think election day, November 5th, have been all Fox shows.

And the first one is 507, I think was somebody that was CNN, I don't know who it was. Why do you think, you know, folks who before were like, well, no, this is how you got to think. No, I mean, you know, I got to take this shot. No, I got to do this. No, this is what they're telling me to do. The level of disruption of social media to the establishment and media, not just social media, media. What effects do you think social media has played for people to kind of start saying, wait a minute, I don't believe you, you're full of shit.

You just try to play games with me, you lied. No, no, this is not cool what just happened here where an RFK, I'll never forget first time, Joe Rogan had Bobby Kennedy on his podcast. He says, I thought you were a kook. I think that's the word he used. He says, I thought you were a kook before I had you on here. I'm like, who is this guy?

What are you talking about? Vaccines are good for you. All this stuff is good for you. And then, you know, like maybe he's got something interesting to talk about. Some of the stuff he's saying is kind of interesting. I'm interested, I'm interested, I'm interested. And then now yesterday, his hearing, one of the guys says, Tell me stuff he's saying is kind of interesting. I'm interested. I'm interested. I'm interested.

And then now, yesterday, his hearing, one of the guys says, uh, RFK, you know, Robert, would you consider yourself a conspiracy theorist? And he says, you know, a lot of people say that, but, uh, was I a conspiracy theorist when you guys were told, uh, we were all told that vaccines, if you take it, you won't be able to give the virus to another person, did I get that wrong? How about the red eye, when you guys, the red dye, did I get that wrong?

How about when you guys said this, it's kind of going through it, right? Do you think the choke hold, the establishment, media, you know, even our educational system had on the populace, they've now, Trump and others have broken broken and these guys don't know how to get control back of it like they used to once have. So I'm a political scientist not an epidemiologist, so I'm not in a good position to try to

debate on where RFK is and isn't right or wrong, but I will tell you more... That's actually not where I'm going. I know. I understand, but I'm tell you more. That's actually not where I'm going. I know, I know. I'm not going to that side. I understand, but I'm saying more broadly, right? In terms of whether I think the establishment media has gone way too far on a bunch of issues. You look at the COVID starting with a lab leak in Wuhan, China, and that was something

that clearly was a narrative that the establishment media decided that they did not want to go ahead with, and I think they did a lot of damage to themselves as a consequence of that as the Biden administration itself in the last weeks of their presidency did a study and came out and said, yeah this looks actually very plausible to us. Well they weren't saying that, you saying that a couple of years ago. I think those sorts of things undermine, I think, that when Fauci was aware

that N95 masks could be effective, but other masks weren't, and he wasn't saying that to the people because he didn't want to cause panic and there weren't enough of them, well, that comes back and bites you in the ass when you're not being transparent and accountable to people. Now more broadly, more broadly than the stuff around disease and

epidemiology, is I think that the Democrats have gone way too far on a bunch of issues that do not align with where the base of the country actually is the base of the population I think the Republicans have done that on one big issue right for the Republicans it was abortion we had for 50 years Roe versus Wade call it settled law call it unsettled law was very messy right and it made nobody completely happy, but it happened to reflect where the average American was on abortion, and therefore it was a pretty good compromise. And when a whole bunch of Republicans decided that they were going to push and push and push the bounds, they ended up losing in a lot of

different places, right, and Trump and Vance worked really hard to pull that back over the last campaign and say, hey, hey, hey, we're not trying to do a national abortion ban and stuff like that. Well, the Democrats got over their skis on every identity issue. They went way, way farther than the average American was willing to tolerate.

They ended up getting completely captured by a small number of elite at well-educated progressives in urban centers and they lost the rest of the country on those issues, on migration. They completely lost the country and decided they were going to stand for some some progressive values that the average American would not tolerate. And I think that when you do that and when the media that supports you Reflects that yeah, you lose Americans now is the answer to be found on social media given You know sort of the I'll do my own research. I don't need to be credentialized

There's massive amounts of verified people that aren't really people they're bots that they're algorithmically you're promoting an immense amount of disinformation No, I don't think social media is a better answer for civil society I don't think that we will become more unified by leaning into algorithmic learning but I do think that establishment media mainstream media has destroyed their credibility in the United States over the past ten years how does the Democratic Party recover? I had Ro Khanna here. Just a day ago.

Yeah, just a day ago. By the way, great conversation. I'm sure. We had him just a day ago. And we're sitting there talking about what policies do you have left for the average day-to-day person to agree with you that's not an extremist? What do you have left? I'm actually curious because you used to be

the party that's against war, now it's the Republicans. You used to be about, hey, working Americans, rich got richer under your term, and gas prices went up under you. What part of it do they have the edge over argument wise purely argument wise I don't know what argument they're winning, you know, hey, no taxes on tips That's low and middle income earners waiters waitresses. He said that first two weeks that a Kamala says that hey, you know We're gonna finish the war. I just don't want people to die

The other side is causing... what argument do they have left? Well if you're becoming a party that wins with wealthy Americans and loses with labor union members, loses with the working-class, loses with middle-class, clearly the Democrats have lost the plot on this, right? I mean Republicans this time around won with middle class. Clearly the Democrats have lost the plot on this. I mean Republicans this time around won with average Americans. That's insane. Well it's a big difference from where they were.

By a billionaire, by a media guy. How did he connect with them where the average guy's like, dude, that guy's gonna take care of me much more than this guy that's from Delaware. I feel like he's the one. I feel like he's the one I feel like he's gonna do a better job than Kamala Harris So to I'm gonna have two answers for you, please and they're different very different answers Okay

One is that the Democrats really believed that democracy needed to be on the agenda, right? That this was you know, if it was just an issues election They weren't gonna win they had to go after Trump because he's like, you know gonna destroy democracy, right? This was, you know, if it was just an issues election they weren't gonna win, they had to go after Trump because he's like, you know, gonna destroy democracy. There were very few Americans that actually voted who believed that democracy was the most important issue. But of those that did, they voted more Trump than Harris. And isn't that fascinating? And that is something the Democrats... How do you handle that? Were you shocked? No, not at all. So you saw this coming. I thought Trump was gonna win. Yes, but that that'll be this would be my second argument but let's start with this one, which is

Yes Trump has done a bunch of things that do not reflect that he is someone that really cares about long-term Rule of law in this country in my view He is not the poster child for like great American governance standards and values, historically. I wouldn't put him in that category. But so many people in this country believe that the reason democracy is broken is not because of Trump. He's a symptom. The reason democracy is broken is because for decades you have special interests in this country that have captured the political system and the Uniparty and the Deep State and call

it whatever you want but the average person sees that the leaders don't care about them the elites don't care about them the political leaders the business leaders the media leaders the university leaders the whole damn lot and so why would they vote for Trump because they believe that just keeping on keeping on voting for the establishment time and time and time again is going to do more wars and send poor kids to Afghanistan and Iraq and God knows where else and promote free trade that takes, they believe, jobs away from average Americans, support, you know, collective security and sending lots of money to other countries, and they're like, well, that may be good in principle,

but if you're not going to help me, why should I support that? If it's just going to help the top 1%, why should I support that? I think globalization is good, but globalization is only good if your leaders also take care of you. So I think the fact is you have lots and lots of Americans that feel like they needed someone that was prepared to break the system, to challenge the establishment. And that has happened in lots of countries, not just in the United States, but Trump took advantage of that. And not just the first time, but the second time when they knew exactly who he was, when it wasn't an experiment, when he's already gone through the impeachments

and was almost assassinated and got convicted and everything else. And people said, no, no, no, exactly. He's fighting against those guys. I want this guy. Now there's a second reason that Trump won. And this one is not an American reason, but it's really important.

You've, I know you've seen how many elections we've had all around the world over the last 12 months. We have more coming in the next few months. Overwhelmingly, incumbents lost. And that is mostly a hangover from the pandemic. That is, this was, I mean, of all the things you and I have experienced as Americans,

the pandemic has been the most disruptive in our lives. Every American felt that, don't care your walk of life. The economy was completely disrupted, supply chains were completely shut down, a massive amount of money, trillions and trillions of dollars were spent, and also people didn't move. They didn't go from state to state, they didn't go from country to country. You finish the pandemic, inflation is at historically high levels, migration is at historically high levels. Any leader that is holding the bag around the world is going to lose in that environment. And here's what's interesting is that if you were an alien

looking down at all the elections over the last year, the U.S. election was one of the closest. I mean you would be forgiven for asking why did Harris do so well? And the answer is not that she was a good candidate, the answer is that the US economy was doing comparatively better and inflation was comparatively lower than what they had in Europe for example or in Canada for example and that's why that election was close. That's why despite everything we've been talking about, Trump didn't break 50%. Yeah, I mean, she lost seven states. Oh, I know.

Seven swing states. I'm just comparing it to other elections around the world. But then this is what it makes me think about. Rob, you know what I wanna know, and maybe you already know the answer to this question. Of the incumbents that lost, you said majority of them lost. Almost all of them, yeah. Almost all of them.

What percentage of them lost almost all of them. Yeah, almost all of them. Yeah, what percentage of them were liberals and more democratic socialist progressive policies That were aligned with what America and Biden did what percentage of them and this is for the 2022 midterms Yeah, no not no terms. We're talking 20 around the world in the last 12 months We're known for the biggest election, you know, India globally. I want to know what percentage of the incumbents who are lost had identical policies to Biden the way they handled COVID, not the way maybe a DeSantis handled COVID. So interesting point, right, is the UK was one of these elections and the conservatives

got completely hammered and labor came in Why anti incumbent? It's like whoever happens to be in power through that. It's not about the policies. Do you think so? Absolutely, because it was such an incredible shock and people just said I want these leaders out I don't care who they are. I want them out. I mean mean you know in India Modi who's one of the most popular leaders of any democracy in the world and Massively underperforms his expectations and has to have a coalition government in Japan LDP leader right again center, right? It's kind of a uniparty now has to govern in coalition now

There are plenty of examples on the other side too now has to govern in coalition. Now there are plenty of examples on the other side too, but I think that the through point here is that if you are in a position of power in that environment, it's a real democracy and the election isn't rigged, you just got hammered. And that is the reality. Yeah, did you ask Chad GBT Rob, is that the one you asked?

I did, that's where that information comes from. So it says over 80 countries representing nearly half of it, but can you find out how many of them are, okay, that's what you're doing? This gave me United States against. I want the world. So it says over 80 countries amongst democracies, more than 80% of incumbent parties

experienced a decline in support compared to previous elections with many suffering historic losses, right? Okay, but I would wanna know based on what? I understand with UK, they had a lot of weird things that they were dealing with. And I wonder how much, okay, so maybe let me go to a different question with this.

Do you think if it was Biden and he doesn't step away, do you think he beats? Oh God, no. Okay, so neither one of them. No. So neither one of them. I mean, Biden gets hammered much worse. How about Josh Shapiro? I think that anyone, it would have been easier for

Shapiro because at least Shapiro wasn't as much of an incumbent. I mean Harris and Biden are responsible. Put them in the same camp. Put them in the same camp. How about Newsom? Look again I would say if you are looking at a change election then you know any even Josh Shapiro and Newsom would be seen as largely politics and policy and politics and so so so but but Even if you go to UK, how do they handle kovat? I don't know if you handle kovat the way the Sanders handle kovat No, you know even if you go to a lot of these there was a some people you can consider conservative

But they still weren't handling it the way was like open feel free. What do you go to a lot of these, there was some people you can consider conservative, but they still weren't handling it the way it was like open, feel free, what do you want to do? I mean, the best state in handling COVID was probably the state of Florida. My opinion, you may disagree. My opinion, right? On what happened. No, the reason why I'm asking this, I don't know if it's all COVID related. Maybe it is, maybe it's not. A lot of things happen that were just weird. Like you said that earlier, they try to really push on the identity politics a little bit too much. And they try to cave to the one percenters who are very loud and hey, pay attention to us. Well, we're going to do this and we're going to, we're like, they're sitting here talking about about RFK is not qualified to be the HHS secretary of you know did you forget Biden's HHS secretary this is him this was our Biden's HHS director I mean you know

who this is Rachel Levine you know we're supposed to sit here and say he's qualified but RFK is not so to average person, logic made no sense the last four years on what happened. And for me, so maybe let me go a different direction because now you're giving good perspectives here. Trump, does Trump win? Take Bobby that goes with Trump. Take Tulsi. Take Rogan. Both Democrats. with Trump, take Tulsi, take Rogan, take Musk, okay? With which one of them does he not win? As a? So say that Musk doesn't get behind him

and puts a quarter of a billion dollars and go to Pennsylvania to campaign for the days that he did and does the Twitter spaces that gets a billion views. Say Tulsi doesn't go to Trump. Say Bobby doesn't come out and walk out. Say, you know, who's the other one I'm missing? I'm missing one, Tulsi, Bobby, Elon Musk. Say Musk is with which-

And you said Rogan, yeah, of course. With Rogan, right. Which one of them would he have still won? Look, I think that, again, the fact that we had, and it's still going on, I mean, the Germans just had their government implode, right, and Canada just had Trudeau implode, I mean, we are seeing across the board that this is a horrible time to be an existing leader

and be attached to whatever it is that's happening, attached to this part of the economic cycle, this part of the migration cycle, this part of the information cycle that goes with that. So I mean, my view was that Trump was not a prohibitive favorite, but a fairly strong favorite, irrespective of each of those individual components. Like it was gonna be a fairly Herculean task for the Democrats to hold power for another four years after that, given where inflation was, given where migration was and how they weren't able

to handle either of those things. Gaza was also an issue, right? Because there were a lot of people that didn't turn for Trump, but didn't vote at all. They lost a fair number of young progressives because they were seen as too close. Free Palestine community. Absolutely, that hurt them, right?

So yeah, do I think that it matters that Elon threw $250 million and actually targeted it well in seven swing states? Yeah, I think that matters. Do I think RFK helped with people that might otherwise not have shown up? Yeah, I think that matters. All those things matter. But you're saying without them, he would have still won. I think I still would have expected very close race, but I thought Trump was going to win

this race. So Bobby doesn't come out. Tulsi, Elon, Rogan, none of these guys come out. You're saying he still wins without them. I do. I absolutely do. So then then okay case study wise the part I'm going with is the following here's what I'm trying to see if it happened or not okay I'm trying to really put myself in a place to believe what you're saying is the reason why that happened is to say nobody was gonna win. It could have been anybody as president and even if let's just say let's completely change it up let's say somehow some way 2020 Trump steps out

and let's say DeSantis became president in 2020. I'm just making things up here. You're saying even DeSantis wouldn't have won on his first term. I'm saying DeSantis in 2024 wouldn't have won. Would have had a really good shot. No, no, no, no. Hear me out what I'm saying. Stay with me here. Okay, so Trump wins 2016. Yes. Okay, 2020 election, your COVID starts, whatever, March 10th they shut down, you know, all this stuff's going on. Great. So, say in 2020 Trump's like, I'm so sick of this, I'm gonna go back to my regular life. And guess what? I think DeSantis has done a good job, he gets behind DeSantis, and DeSantis runs for president. Oh, in 2020 you didn't have the same issue.

Hang on one second. So then, say DeSantis wins. He's the president in 2021. Yeah. It's his first term. Mm-hmm. He is now going to compete for his second term. Yeah. As an incumbent. Right.

But he's gonna go against who? Kamala, Newsome, Josh, and all those guys. Someone, yeah. You're saying the scientists would have still lost. He would have lost. He probably would have lost. I think the anti-incumbent sentiment is overwhelming. I don't know about that.

I know, I get you. all I'm saying is that look well Let's debate it because I want to I want to turn my tear apart my argument because I want to really go with it And tell me Pat I still think the Santas would have lost And we don't know what the Santas would have got what I'm saying to you is well No, let's just say the Santas governed the way he governed the state of Florida Mm-hmm, if the Santas governs the way he governed the state of Florida. If DeSantis governs the way he governed the state of Florida, do you think DeSantis would have won 2024 election? I think he would have probably had a better shot, right?

In the same way that Biden staying in is like a complete disaster because he clearly is not capable of running the country for four years, right? It's just not possible. So again, I hear you, but I think it's important. Americans need to look outside the US more than they do. There are a lot of democracies out there.

They're facing a lot of the same problems. We talk about trade, we talk about migration, we talk about the media space. This is not, you talked to, you asked about Facebook and social media and you asked me about Millet, you could have asked about Bukele and El Salvador. All these leaders. So you're willing to talk with me

about all of these like grassroots factors that are causing things all over the world. But then when we talk about the impact that has on an election after a unique, extraordinary global time of crisis, global time of crisis, and it turns out that that leads to overwhelming pushback. May I present?

Let me present it to you, and tear apart the argument. So let's say in a fantasy world, Trump steps out in 2020, and he says, guys, you know what, I'm not dealing with this, I wanna go spend time with my grandkids and go golf, I got 20 more years to live, I wanna enjoy my life, I can't stand politics. Possible. I'm out.

DeSantis comes in, I get behind him. DeSantis wins 2021, January, whatever it is. DeSantis, the president, there's no J6, okay? Okay, he wins. Let's go through which events he would have handled in a different way. Okay, so now, do you think De Santas being a president Trump still tweets? No

No, meaning do you think the Santas becomes president 2021 you think Trump is still gonna be loud and say stuff and you know He's golfing? Not as much. Okay, maybe not as much. Okay Do you think the Santas being president The border would have been handled the same exact way no I think the board will stay with me here that that's important. Okay. Stay with me here So I don't think the border would have been handled the same exact way. Yeah, so we're in 2008 the unidentified

unaccompanied alien children UACs in 2008 Bush's last year we had 8,000 UACs in 2008 Bush's last year we had 8,000 UACs We're in 2022 we had a hundred and forty eight thousand. It's not gonna happen under under the Santas. Okay So America was sick of that number two Do you think? He would have allowed for the amount of abuse that took place for kids to not go to school and leaving kids closed and, you know, been able to control with the funding

for some states that are abusing and they're not letting kids go back to school. Probably not. Okay? Probably not on how he would have handled it because he would have probably shared similar policies that he was doing in Florida, crossed the board nationwide. But the Democrats in opposition also wouldn't have been leaning into the crazy populists, the crazy progressive stuff on identity politics

to the degree that they were in the, when they have power in the White House. Stay on COVID, stay on this COVID part, right? So now we're talking COVID and school shutdown, okay? If they opposed him and they said, who the hell you think you are? Our job is to protect the kids and we're going to be able to protect it and may have regrosa Text us if you see people that are driving in the streets because we told people to stay home if they're non-essential and da-da-da-da

Okay If they opposed the santas and the santas is saying this policy It would have backfired on the progressive still right? Let's go to the third one. Do you think a war would have happened with Russia and Ukraine? I don't think so. Yes, I do. Do you think it would have still happened?

Absolutely. Do you think Hamas and Israel still happens? Probably, yes. Okay, so you're putting those two as a yes. So meaning you're saying Putin wouldn't necessarily have the fear towards, you know, DeSantis as a president. DeSantis said he would on Trump. Okay, fair.

Absolutely. Okay, fair. That's fine, Let's stay there. So then the next one, progressives talking about puberty blockers for kids and the LGBTQ and the transgender, we have to make sure we do this and a Randy Levine, what is his name? Rachel Levine. Yeah. He's not gonna be in there. Again, less of an issue, because the Democrats aren't in the White House. You're right, so that's exactly where I'm going with you,

because the argument I'm trying to make with you is, the incumbent wouldn't have lost here if a DeSantis was president. I hear you. Because I think it's policy-based, not just because all incumbents lost, whoever it would have been, they would have lost. I don't know if I buy that argument. Again, I think that inflation in the United States

absolutely would have been at the same rough levels if we had DeSantis for the last four years. Tell me why. In what way? Because the reason for inflation in the U.S. and globally is because you had these incredible, first of all, because you needed to throw a lot of money in the teeth of the pandemic, that had to happen. And secondly, because you shut down global supply chain.

And when it reopened, it was reopening at different times in different places. Remember China had zero COVID for way too long. Europe was opening at some times and wasn't US different times as well. The ships aren't in the right places. You're paying massively more to get, all of that is happening.

That's an enormously important issue. That's a pocketbook issue. People don't, they don't care if their wages are going up if they're paying more for eggs on a regular basis. No, I'm ready, listen, used car prices used to, I couldn't believe a guy offered me to buy my, I bought my car for $100,000, guy offers me $110,000 two and a half years later.

I'm like, what are you talking about? He says, yeah, because the chips, whatever's going on with the chips, you know, that they, all the, you went to a watch store, you're trying to buy a watch, there are no watches out there. They're not even making watches. Like, we don't have any watch, everything is empty.

So you're right, I'm with you on that part. So I'm prepared to accept that if you ask me, would DeSantis have been a stronger incumbent in an environment where incumbents are getting crushed everywhere around the world? Would he have had more of a chance yeah yes but do I think he would have won what I bet on that given that I would say no okay so you said earlier you used the word deep state and you use one other word I don't know what word you use before the deep state but something around the lines of

that same community do you do, for somebody that you've spoken at World Economic Forum multiple times, you've, you're a New York Times best seller, you've sat down with a lot of different people, you've been shown in many different meetings with some people that would be considered globalists, some people would consider them deep state and all this stuff.

Do you believe at this phase, in 2025, with what we saw the last four years, do you believe there is such would consider them deep state and all this stuff Yeah, do you believe at this phase in 2025 with what we saw the last four years Do you believe there is such thing as a deep state or you think that's just a term that's thrown around as a? fear porn word Like all of these things They resonate because the basis of the argument has some truth in it So if you ask me is there a deep state in the sense that? There are people at the World Economic Forum or the Council of Foreign Relations or the

Bilderberg Group, all of which I have attended, right, that are actually making that have their hands on the levers of power and are strategically figuring out here is how we're going to manipulate and stay in power. No. These organizations have virtually no power in and of themselves, and they serve as networking organizations to help people get deals done. Businesses done. You think Klaus Schwab is a good guy? I didn't say that, I said that that's not,

that wasn't the question you asked. Klaus Schwab is someone I know and have known for a long time, he is not someone that I would say is a warm know warm fuzzy You know sort of you know Classical liberal care about everybody in the world. He's he the fact is that I wrote a book Not my lit my latest one, but two books ago Called us versus them the failure of globalism

I think globalism has utterly failed in the United States and around the world of a large number of Incredibly wealthy people that have bought access to power have used that to advance their own interests Against the interests of people that are now saying we're not going to tolerate that anymore. I think that's an incredible, incredible injustice. So I'm not a globalist. I believe in globalization because in the last 50 years, we've managed to reduce poverty and increase a global middle class that can actually live longer. We've managed to like educate women.

We've managed to urbanize. We've managed to reduce infant poverty. We educate people. Those are all great things. Globalization is wonderful. I love the fact that people and goods and services and ideas move faster and faster around the world, and that people like you and I, our families,

can get the hell out of where we were and make something of ourselves. I believe in all of that. But globalism, the idea that if you can get your hands on power, you can promote these things and not care about the people in your own country, I don't accept that at all, at all. But my point is, because you asked me about the deep state,

you didn't ask me about like is Klaus Schwab a good guy, that the deep state is true insofar as there are a class, a tiny class of people that don't care whether it's Democrats or Republicans, they will find a way to ensure that they are close to power and that they are using that to get outcomes that benefit them and not outcomes that are free and fair competition in a well-regulated free market. And who gets screwed? The average American gets screwed. Of course they do.

Of course they do. So is that a deep state? I would argue that that is a component of, that's a kleptocratic oligarchical system. It's a little bit like Berezovsky in the early go-go Russian days. Was Berezovsky and Yeltsin, were they good for the average Russian citizen? After the Soviet Union collapsed? No, it was a disaster for them. They managed to take the wealth of the country and put it in their own pockets. So, deep state. Let's stay on that and then we'll go to class swap.

So let's talk about deep state. So you think, yes, probably there's a deep state on both sides. Fair. Okay. So the question that I would ask when I think about the deep state People that don't want to give up the card, right the control card, whatever you want to call it, right? Mitch McConnell. Mark Zuckerberg. I would put the politician guys first. Let's go McConnell's Schumer's Pelosi's Some of those guys that like to have the power and the control, right? So put them there the story that came out with Barry Weiss and Speaker Johnson, I don't know if you saw that, where she's doing a podcast with Speaker Johnson and he says, for nine weeks, I'm the speaker

of the Flippin' House and I'm trying to get a meeting with Joe Biden. Everybody's saying he's not there. I remember that. Yeah. He's busy. Couldn't get the meeting. They're protecting him. They're protecting him. Yeah. He's like, hey, President, you's busy. He's busy. They're talking about protecting him. Yeah, he's like hey president you sighs I never signed that what do you mean? You don't sign these you signed this for you signed this

I mean, I was at the NATO 75th anniversary in Washington I met with world leaders that told me in their meetings with Biden Biden didn't recognize them. I mean it was it was Extraordinary that Biden still was running for president at that point. It's extraordinary. Obviously, there were people around him that were doing everything possible to ensure that the actual state of his health on a day-to-day basis was obscured from the rest of, I completely, I accept that.

Right, so when you have, and then he says, we're sitting in the office, and he says, who's in the room? Hakeem Jeffries, I think he said, he said Kamala Harris, and one other name, Shumri, he said, can you guys give me a few minutes to talk to the speaker, and they almost didn't wanna leave. Yeah, and they did, and they left,

and he spoke with Johnson directly, yeah. So the deep state, Kai, if you sit there and you think about the deep state, again, go to a DeSantis. If DeSantis was in and he's dealing with that, you think he's gonna be helping those guys out? Helping the Democrats? No, the deep state, whoever it is.

You think the deep state's gonna like him? You think the deep state's gonna, you think the deep state would like a DeSantis? Absolutely. Tell me why. Well, I mean, I think about... More than they would like a Trump? More than they would like a Trump. It's interesting. Trump is more transactional and more pay-for-play. So if you're someone like Jeff Yas, he will flip on TikTok because you've given money to his campaign. So, I mean, in a way that I think DeSantis would be less overtly transactional. I think that's a fair point you make.

But, I mean, if I think about how comfortable an awful lot of big donors are with all of these people, I mean, it is true that more billionaires, a larger number of billionaires gave money to Harris than gave money to Trump, that's certainly true. But if you ask me how the American system feels broken, it's not because we're becoming a dictatorship, it's because special interests with a lot of money

ensure that they pay for almost every congressional race, House and Senate, Democrat and Republican, and the presidential race, and it's three billion dollars and it takes 24 months and it's a subversion of democracy. And the idea that that's true only of one party, not the other, is insane. It's insane. So we all know that, I mean, like no matter who comes in, you know, the people that are doing really, really well in the United States keep on keeping on. The comparison is not even close though. If you look at the money that's go goes from special interest to the left and the right,

it's not even close. Have you ever looked at the numbers? I, at the total numbers? Have you seen what kind of numbers are being raised? Have you seen how much money a Trump raise versus a Biden? Have you seen how much of a Trump raised versus a Biden? Have you seen how much of a Trump raised versus a Kamala? Have you seen where 1.5 billion dollars for Kamala in a span of six months disappeared and you know celebrities are getting paid? I certainly saw how much more Harris was able to

raise in this last cycle than Trump did but if you look at Senate races for Democrats and Republicans across the board I think those numbers are pretty comparable and those are big races. I'm not, I'm not, but when you, when you, I'm talking specifically. But you asked him about DeSantis. So I mean, I'm just saying DeSantis raised a lot of money, right? He did raise a lot of money. But I'm going back to the idea that why is it that special interest groups, like if you go to Rob, can you pull up presidential campaign contributions, like how much they've raised by president. When you see Biden's number, I mean, go to images if you could, by president.

I don't think that's the one. There's one that shows how much each of them raised. I think Brandon may have sent it to me. Yeah, and Biden's number is astronomical on what he raised. They're not given the money to him because they believe on how great of a speech he gives and how great he's gonna negotiate. Of course not.

Yeah. Again, I would compare the United States with any other advanced industrial democracy. You look at the Republicans, you look at the Democrats, and you would say, wow, the United States is so out of whack compared to every other country. You know, you have an election in Canada and you're talking about raising like, you know,

sort of tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars. Germany, I have friends that are running in Germany right now, these are tiny, tiny races. And you're not able to sell fund in the way you can in the United States. Okay, so check this out. Yeah, sure. Watch this. Okay, can you zoom in a little bit?

Yes. So check this out. 84, who runs an 84? Okay, 84 is zoom in a little bit? So check this out, 84, who runs in 84? Okay, 84 is Reagan. 77 million versus 149. Go to 88, okay, he's running on a second term. Of course he's gonna raise more money because he's on a second term. 92, Bush Senior, okay, the VP becomes the president.

96, Clinton. I think that's Clinton goes against Bush. Still, look at red, 2000. Now go from 2000, okay? Blue, blue look at Obama. Blue, 2012 Obama. Blue, 2016 Hillary. Blue, look at that one right there.

$3.1 billion dollars and then go to 24, Trump against, you know, the number of money going to Republican candidates versus Democratic candidates. What's that 206 million because obviously the Republicans got a lot more money than 206 million. Go a little bit lower Rob, this is Statista, okay, go and look at the top so he can see exactly what the top is, top spending of President-C, Major-President of the Republican Party from 1984 to spending, this is spending. So when you're looking at that kind of money

that's coming in, why is special interests so interested in the Democratic Party? Is it because they're bought? Is it because they'll take money and do anything for them? Why are they putting more money on the other side? See, to me, when I'm looking at this, and the reason why I went back And ask you a question earlier. Yeah Where I said I had rocana here. I'm like what is left for you guys

Is it the fact that there's just more money coming to you? so because there's more money coming to you it makes it seem like you guys got the policies or Was the last four years during covid? so Phenomenal because they went so aggressive on the offensive that the American people finally said, oh, I got you. No, we're not doing this anymore.

You guys can't give as much money as you want to her or him. I'm done. I don't care how much money you give them. I'm going this way, okay? I don't believe you guys. I think all of you guys are bought on this side You guys are for sale on this side the moment Trump wins Bill Gates has a three-hour meeting with Trump Zuck over there and they all go but this is very different though

So they're all gonna donate and and they did yeah a lot of them give a million dollars to million Absolutely. Yeah So where I'm going is you know, is this a? monumental moment where the Democratic party took a, got a black eye, the way the Republican party got a black eye in 1960, 1964 with Barry Goldwater, where the Republicans went from having 64% of the African American voters voting for Democrat, the other side would be Republican,

it went from 64 in 1960 to 92 in 1964, and they lost the black vote until 2024. So do you think this was a catastrophic event for the Democratic Party in 2024, or now it's just normal ebbs and flows, it goes back and forth. That's what I'm trying to see, especially for someone like you. Look, I think that the country is so much more divided.

There are so many fewer votes that are up for grabs today than there were 50 years ago in the United States. I mean, at the end of the day, you're talking about a very small number of people in a very small number of districts, and otherwise, people are reliably red and they're reliably blue. It's very hard to flip most of those people

most of those places. There are a lot more independents in the United States now than there were before, but those independents reliably lean with a party or another, even if they're not a part of that party. That's fair Yeah, so I I think that what we are talking about right now is a country that is That has most of its population that has decided that they are on team a or team b

And the other team is an enemy and that's a serious problem Right now it was at least really good in 2024 that nobody thought the election was rigged it was good that everyone accepts that Trump is actually president I don't know if I think 2025 the other side think the other side's the enemy I actually don't believe that right now I believe that the last five years I don't believe that right now. Let me give you an idea of why, and I'll push back. Bezos, goes have a good meeting. Wall Street Journal this week,

if you go to WSJ's YouTube channel, go to YouTube channel, they interview Bill Gates. I don't know if you saw that. I saw it, yeah. 12 minute interview. He said good things about Trump. He said good things about Trump? Of course.

Can you imagine like a world where, yeah, this was five days ago. It's actually a very good interview. I watch, I'm like okay, good. That's very different from the average American. I mean again, Bill Gates is. But that's not what I'm saying though. No, what I'm saying to you is,

for a guy like him to go to the other side, for TikTok to get kids and younger boys to go to the other side. You're supporting who? To get, you know, African-American numbers where the CNN host is watching this guy giving the stats and she's like that can't be right. That's the numbers. Are you joking? Yes. Even Kamala Harris, the worst with African-American voters for the last four Democratic presidents. That can't be real. That's the real numbers.

I think this was a place where, you know, Rogan said something the other day. I actually really like what he said. He says, you know, he says, I still am not a Republican. He says, I'm still an independent. He says, there's some things I agree with with the left. There's some things I agree with with the left, there's some things I agree with with the right. But to him, he saw more common sense and sanity on Trump's side than the other side. This doesn't mean where two years ago when I'm on his podcast, episode 216, whatever it was, a year and a

half ago, you know, he had no plans of having Trump on. And he's on Lex Friedman, he's like, I'll never have him on, I'll never have him on. Look, I think it's a bigger win, and there's no question. But I think it's a, I don't think it's a win. I don't think it's just a win. The part I'm trying to ask from you is, I think it's a real shift. Like I truly, like you know, we haven't had a third party

competitor in a long time since Ross Perot. Whatever, 19 points, 20 points, whatever the number was. And every year, so what, we need an independent party,'t had a third party competitor long term since Ross Perot whatever 19 points 20 whatever the number was right and Every year so what we need an independent part. We need a third party. Okay great eventually someone's gonna say I'm a Republican. I'm a Democrat. I think something happened right now I really think 2020 because when I'm talking to guys right now Who are left right center? I run an insurance company and we got a instead of regular guys that do what they do and so they're not rich people. These are insurance agents that are making 2, 3, 4, 5 grand and then we got some people that make millions but some of these guys

are making 60, 50, 100 thousand dollars. You're talking to them. It's a very different vibe I get when Trump's name comes up than the level of hate and anger they had towards him in 2018, 19, 20, 20, 21. They hated this guy in 2018, 19. They thought he was the Antichrist and now they're like, look, still don't like the guy, but I don't hate him. I actually think I'm happy he's the president. It's a very different language you hear. That's the part where I'm saying where I don't know if we're as divided today as we were I hope I hope you're right. I hope you're right. I I don't see that in the United States now. I don't see that around the world right now I think that Trump's impulses, of course are still very much about

Finding people that are the enemy and I'm going to win and we're going to win together and we're going to go after these people. I think that Elon does the same thing and not just domestically but also around the world. I think it works. It produces algorithmically. You get clicks on the basis of much stronger emotions than you do long form nuance and engaging in civil society.

And a lot of Americans are hurting. A lot of average Americans, a lot of young men in the United States don't feel like they're doing well, don't feel like people are taking care of them and they're angry at stuff. And you know, what can you do? You go after, I mean, 30,000, talk about Guantanamo and I'm gonna set up 30,000, you know,

a camp for 30,000 people. Does he need to do that? No. Can the cruelty be the point in going after folks? Yeah, it helps because they want to say, you're responsible for my pain and I'm going to do something about that. So I don't, I think that all of these things play because there's a lot of hurt. There's a lot of feeling of isolation. There's a lot of Americans that are spending much less time with other Americans and instead are being Intermediated through their phones and I think that's a problem

And I think that MAGA has managed to create something that people can aspire and connect to when the family's broken down and when the church Has broken down and when public schools aren't doing so well Our economy is doing fantastically well at the macro level, but the average American I think is still feeling like they're hurting So I have a hard time seeing America not being as divided until we start fixing those issues the macro level, but the average American I think is still feeling like they're hurting. So I have a hard time seeing America not being as divided until we start fixing those issues. Those are long-term structural issues. I don't think we're getting closer on that.

I also worry that we're throwing the baby out with the bath water when the United States – I've never seen a time – I mean, you've been talking a lot about the US over the last 15, 20 minutes. I spend most of my time talking outside the US about what's happening in the rest of the world. The United Nations, the World Health Organization, all of these organizations, we created them. The United States after World War II, the World Bank, the IMF, right? NATO. We created them with our values and our allies because we recognize that long term

we have a democracy, our system is messy, you go from one president to a different, different types of ideas and policies, but that if we could create institutions where yes, we'd be responsible and we'd do more maybe in some cases than our fair share, we'd pay more, we'd be more engaged, we'd show leadership, but long term we would benefit from that. But if the average American doesn't believe that they benefit from that they're gonna say screw you we shouldn't support that anymore. We don't like the UN. We don't like the WHO. We don't like any of these organizations because you're not taking

care of us. But do you know why they don't like the UN? Do you know why they don't like NATO? Do you know why they don't like World Health Organization? I do. Why? Well I mean they're different reasons but the main reason they don't like them is because they feel like the United States is Getting rolled by a whole bunch of countries that aren't taking care of themselves and want the Americans to pay for it But but is that is that that's a different idea Than what it was when NATO first got started. Why did NATO first get started? It got started because of did NATO first get started?

It got started because of Russia, USSR, right? You know, why is NATO needed today? And so do they need to cancel? The part with the average person, see what Trump did is, Trump asked interesting questions that prompted everybody to go in, search. He asked the questions like a business owner asks. I mean, you're running a business since 1998, right?

I don't know what your revenue is, I don't know how many employees do you guys have? 250. Okay, you got 250 employees. You have a board. I own it, so I started it. Okay, but do you have a board where you sit and talk to people and have counsel,

or no, you don't have a board? Okay, so, but 250 employees. 250 employees, it's a legitimate size company you got. It's not a small business. Okay, so what do you do? Don't you sit there and say, the other day my CTO comes up to me, he says, do you know we pay subscription to 900 different things?

I said, what? Why? Who signed up for this? Well you had one employee that kept subscribing to everything. He's no longer here so we're looking at the credit card. Let me tell you we're learning so many different things as we're asking questions. Subscribe, subscribe, subscribe. Asking nobody. Subscribe, subscribe, subscribe. 900 subscription to different things. So then I'm asking questions. What are some questions I wanna ask? On which credit card were the subscriptions prompted first?

Data rolls it and you'll see boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Oh shit. 293 came from this one employee? Which one of them were approved? Okay, maybe we approved those, but what is this? Great, how about this other person? How about that other person? Which one of these do we even know what we use for?

Out of the 900, we probably don't even need 50% of them, right? So that person who should be these payments going through, he should approve these, that guy did it without getting the approval, okay, we have to change the, you know, and then you change the props, right? Okay What did Trump do Trump ask questions that is sealed like you asks?

Any reason why we're giving 350 million dollars to World Health Organization with 340 million People live in here while China's giving 39 million give or take and they have one and a half billion Very good question. Any reason why we're giving more money to NATO to protect Denmark? We're not worried about our borders. Why aren't all these other countries given? And they're like, oh shit, nobody's been asking. Guys, let's start giving more money.

And useful for them to be giving more money and pushing on them, absolutely. But what I'm saying is, when you're saying we started these things as a form of imposing our values and principles, the challenge then happens is what? You're, like even right now when Trump said, I think we buy 50% of TikTok, and 50% of TikTok goes to an owner in US,

and I'm gonna give you a license. I'm not a fan of that, why? I don't want the government to want 50% of TikTok. Why not? I trust it under Trump, I don't trust it under who's gonna be president next. I don't trust it on two presidents from now So even though we're creating these world economic and this is an important thing is that in four years time Trump is not president anymore

So I mean as much as he can impose all Sorts of ideas and will that a lot of people are going to say I like this The reality is the law of the jungle driven by Trump with all of these things saying you do it my way or you're in serious trouble, when that stops and you have a different leader, Republican or Democrat, don't care, but they're not gonna have that ability. They're not, he's a unique figure in that regard. They're not gonna have that ability.

They're not, but then you don't have the same institutional heft to ensure that people otherwise behave that were aligned with the Americans, you're going to lose something. Right. That's important. It is important, but go back to what we discussed. Institutional have to ensure that people otherwise behave that were aligned with the Americans you're going to lose something right, right? That's important. It is important But go back to what we discussed so a lot of these organizations that may have started with the right cause have now turned into a political you know

Abuse of their power and hey, we need more money. We know let me send you more money. Let me say don't worry about it I got you. We'll send you more money. We'll send you more money. No, we're not sending you more money. And now World Health Organization could potentially be shutting down, they're begging other people for money. They're like, why are we going to do this? We're not going to be doing this. I love that. I love that part of coming in and asking, hey, any reason why? I like asking. I don't like breaking. Okay, so here's another question. That is the difference.

You're 250 employees. How many of them work from home? Everyone is three days a week in the office. And where do you base that up? New York, but that's 90 of them. And then the other guys are all over the world? All offices all over the world, yeah. So, and most of them, what do they do?

Are most of them doing research? Are they writing? What's their job? Yeah, probably a solid half are direct analysts in some fashion. And then you've got tech people, and you've got HR people, and da da da da. Do you have a system to track people's behavior that the work is being put in?

Sure, of course, many. Okay, perfect. So here's another. It's a company, it's not the government. Brother, the part that. Like do I think the government is inefficient? Yes, I do. Do I think that like do I think the government is inefficient? Yes, I do Do I think that we should break everything and ask questions later? No, I want us to ask questions first and then break That's the difference. That's the difference. You're not gonna have time because you got two years only till midterms

Oh, no my god. Look, I mean, I think that you want to ask questions about Greenland We can ask questions first ask them with our ally Denmark. Don't break things first and then go and ask the questions. You're talking to a guy that is, has been doing this for 78 years and it's worked. I know. Right. I know, in a different environment. We got two million government employees, of which only 6% come to the office every day.

Horrible. I said publicly, I tweeted publicly when they said everyone's going to work on every day. I said, if Doge does nothing nothing else do that and it's a win I mean, this is I completely agree nowadays more than ever the brand you wear reflects and represent who you are So for us if you wear a future looks bright hat or a value-taming gear, you're telling the world. I'm optimistic I'm excited about what's gonna be happening. But you're a free thinker you question things you like debate and by the way last year a hundred and twenty thousand people got a piece of future looks bright gear with Valuetainment we have so many new things the cufflinks are here new future looks bright this is my favorite the

green one just yesterday somebody placed an order for a hundred of these. If you watch the PBD podcast, you got a bunch to choose from, white ones, black ones. If you smoke cigars and you come to our cigar lounge, we have this high quality, lighter cutter and a holder for the cigars. We got sweaters with the Vitaiment logo on it. We got mugs. We got a bunch of different things, but if you believe the future looks bright, if you follow our content and what we represent with Valuetainment, with PVD Podcasts, go to vtmerch.com. And by the way, if you order right now,

there's gonna be a special VT gift inside just for you. So again, go to vtmerch.com, place your order, tell the world that you believe the future looks bright. So okay, let's go to World Economic Forum in Davos. EET not going to, but anyways, they extended an invitation. Nice of them, fellow, he had a call with my EA and my couple guys, it was good to go. Clash Swap, I asked you, is he a good guy? I didn't say that, you said, I didn't say that, right? Is he a good guy or not? World Economic Forum, okay?

Good organization, bad organization, what's the motive? You saw some of the stuff on the website, they put some stuff that's kind of suspect. You want us to do what? You're gonna own nothing and be happy? We are things that they talked about, some of the messages that comes out. Why do you think?

Here's an issue that I know a lot about. Perfect, and I wanna hear it. Why do you think a lot of people who may be sided with Trump don't trust the World Economic Forum? Because it's a conference every year in Switzerland, not in the United States, with a lot of very wealthy and powerful people that are getting together, a lot of them are flying in on their private planes, and it's very easy

to imagine that when you do that they must be controlling the world. And you know all you need is to get a quick video and take something out that you know sort of says the great reset or says we want you to eat bugs or whatever it is that's crazy and stupid and that suddenly becomes the meme For what they're actually discussing. I've gone for 15 years. They have 600 employees I think they make 400 million dollars a year I can assure you that no running of the world is being done by the world economic form the reason they are successful And the reason that you should probably go and you would find this out for yourself and then you could

tell everybody exactly what I'm now telling you is that the most busy people in the world for whom time is a very precious commodity can get five weeks of work done in five days and that is what they do because they are able to get their bilaterals all set up with every other business leader in their sector in related sectors all these government leaders, they will not take a meeting unless that meeting will get something done if I go to London. And I haven't been to get done in that meeting. You will not take a meeting at the World Economic Forum because it's such a target rich environment unless you have something concrete

that you wanna get done in that meeting. So number one, everyone is there. Number two, almost every meeting is productive. And number three, you are filling your time with people that you really wanna see. For CEOs who work and finance and foreign ministers whose time is Incredibly incredibly valuable. This is the most target rich environment the most productive environment they could possibly have and that's why they go and that's why it's successful and

Everything else and the memes that you see about what the web is driving in terms of some of the research papers they put out That's that's like window dressing that shows that they have like some stuff to talk about in content, but that's not why the WEF worked. No, zero. No, you should not at all buy that. You should not. Well, so you're saying that they cut a clip of what he's saying to eat bugs and do all this stuff? No, like...

I've never eaten a bug at the office. I have. I ate it at Mexico. Quintanil. Is that where you went? Let me tell you. That was great. I had three courses with bugs. It was insane. It was good. I actually liked it. No, I mean if you were eating bugs like that you would eat bugs. If I'm going to eat it I'm going to eat Mexican bugs. My choice with the best hot sauce and all that other stuff. Were you at the kitchen bar there? Listen, it was the most amazing experience. Amazing meal. Food, everything they brought, it was ridiculous, right?

But you know, like if you see. You sound like a globalist, I don't know, I'm a little concerned, Pat. You're so funny. I swear to God. But if you see a person getting up there and they give a message, and this guy's up there talking about the great reset

and all this other stuff. And what's his role with World Economic Forum? Is he the director? He gave, I think, Avi it. I think he's executive chairman or something. Harari's about to take his position, I think. I think he's gonna pass it over to him sometime soon. Yuval Harari?

Yeah. No. No? No. Maybe you haven't read this article. I think I think he's gonna pass it over to him sometime soon. You've all heard. Yeah. No, no Maybe you haven't read this article. There was an article that said you've all Harari Let me find this here Klaus Schwab. I Think if that was in an article, I think it's wrong Yeah, you've all Harari is his right-hand guy no, he's not Well, listen, these are articles saying it's his right-hand guy. I'm telling you it's not his right-hand guy. He wasn't even there this year.

Are you his right-hand guy? Who is it? Who the fuck are you talking about? His name is Berga Brenda, and he's a former foreign minister in the Nordics, and he's a perfectly affable smart guy. When he was foreign minister, he was very well respected by all of the other leaders in the region and he's good at coordinating these meetings. No, I mean, I think you misread that. I don't think I misread that.

I do because it's not showing up, man. I'm telling you, I'm looking at you right now. No, no, I'll find it for you. I will find it for you. Yuval Harari doesn't even, I know him well and he's not someone that's going to take over the web. Okay. Hang on, I'm gonna find it for you

before we wrap this up. Okay, fine. And you can say it's not true or it's inaccurate or whatever. But if you see Klaus Schwab getting up there and talking about we need a reset, great reset. Every year, they try to come up with some interesting ideas about where they think the world is or isn't going and it's absolutely talked about because they have a big forum. Is it talked about more than you know what someone would say at the UN General Assembly every year or at a NATO summit or

anything else? No, I mean it's it's the fact is that the business of the web is as I've just described it to you, but again I understand that in an environment where people are doing their own research, there are people that are making up stuff wholesale and they'll take a tiny clip of something and they'll make it into more than it actually is. That's, it just is not... I'm gonna play you a clip by this guy. Just can you find one clip of him? Of Klaus? Yeah, of Klaus. And you tell me if this sounds normal to you.

You mean his accent? Not his accent. You wanna try Kissinger too? He sounds like, well, Kissinger had his own set of issues as well. I'm not gonna tell you Kissinger was an angel. Kissinger could be a reason why you and I are sitting here right now.

Because if it wasn't for Kissinger, I may still be in Iran today. I may be in a different situation. It's possible, yeah. Because of the promises they made to help out the Shah, which last minute they didn't, which I'm sure you know the history of that. But why do you think?

Why do you think they don't trust it? Why do you think they don't trust Klaus Schwab? Why do you think they think he's evil? Why do you think when you're, the amount of when they see him as a person, you think it's just the clips that are doing that? You think he doesn't have any other motives? You think when you are... I think it's all the wealthy people showing up in a mountain in Switzerland. When you write a book, how long does it take you to write a book? A year and a half, two years. A year and a half. So when

all of a sudden COVID happens in March of 2020, where it becomes public, how does Klaus write such a book so fast that comes out in July, four months later? I've never written a book that fast. I don't know if you remember the dates. So here's the COVID-19, the great reset. He's got about 600 people.

How many people are working with him on that? I got a lot of people working for me. His book is July 9th, 2020. COVID is a thing in March. You just said it takes a year, a year and a half to write a book. Terry Malare, I remember Terry. He is, no, it takes me a year and a half

because I have a goddamn day job. It's really hard. I have to find time to actually do it in between everything else that I do. It's hard. People that write books for a living, of whom Terry Malare, who's the second author there, that is what he does. He's a global strategist who writes books and thought pieces for a living. And I am certain

that he did a hell of a lot of lifting there. And can you get that done? It also was a relatively short book, if I remember correctly. It was like 120 pages. It was a 250. No, it was not. print length. It was it really to a right there You've got to get your fax on you're spending too much time But the idea I mean you if you're basing this theory on the fact that he got a book done in four months with a Guy that writes a little I can ask a question. I say that's a little weird. You don't think that's a little weird? No.

Really? You don't think that's a little weird? Jesus Christ, man. No. You're a smart guy. I am a smart guy and I ask questions. Don't go into deep zone, deep part of the pool on this. So let me go to a different direction with this one.

I'm telling you that if you actually, if you next year say yes to the WEF and you go and spend the entire week and actually see all the meetings, you'll come away saying, yeah, that's a conference. Rahm Emanuel, you know who he is? I know him well, yeah. Okay, he said never let a crisis go to waste. Yes, he did say that. Do you think they saw COVID as a crisis to use?

Do you think the World Economic Forum maybe saw this as an opportunity to really impose their beliefs around the world? A non-profit organization of 600 people, most of whom last for two years and then go on and work someplace else? No! No! People said that about the Council on Foreign Relations. Council is like a tiny sleepy non-profit and why, and they're like, they are the most bureaucratic organization.

It's so hard to get things done. And they're nice people. And they're smart people. and they're smart people, but they don't run the world. And so the idea, no, the people that run the world are the people that are worth hundreds of billions of dollars, that are directly in meetings with world leaders where they can actually take real advantage of those meetings

because they can put cash into play. Like, you and I both know the currency of power in the world is about do you have capital? And the WEF does not. They don't. They're convener. They're conveners of events. Yeah, but you're not a,

so the insurance industry has an organization called LIMRA, okay? The guy that was running it was a guy that was very, very powerful in the insurance space. He was a CEO of it. Yeah, okay What made him powerful? What made him powerful is the fact that every CEO of? 40 50 hundred 200 billion dollar insurance company went to his conference. Yeah every year You know much power that guy had I don't a lot of not in the insurance industry

Oh, it's a lot of power. Yeah, so if you think about Which power did I have? I don't. I'm not in the insurance industry. Oh, it's a lot of power though. So if you think about this guy is getting all of these leaders like Larry Fink, Jamie Diamond, everybody from around the world is coming to his conference. They all have industry groups that are really, really relevant for them. And if you want to talk about where they're applying and making sure that they're aligning

their capital, it's in their industry groups. It's not in the WEF with everybody else. In the WEF, they're meeting with everyone so they can get business done. It is transactional, it is not strategic. Strategic are where they put money into their packs, they put money into their industry groups and figure out what are the things

that move the needle for them so that they have more access to the kind of regulations they want, the kind of taxes they want. That's where that power is being levered, no question. And the guy that hosts it, that brings everybody together, who says things like the following, let me just read this quote to you. From who?

This is the sweetheart of a guy, Klaus. You'll own nothing and you'll be happy. I remember that, yeah. You think that's just normal? I thought that that was an odd quote. You think that's just odd? I do. I was an odd quote You think that's just odd I do I mean do odd is an understatement odd I mean that brings all these the richest people Oh my god

if I look at the people that are driving AI in the world today and what they say about the future and so the idea that like, you know You're gonna have digital sovereignty and people are gonna upload into the internet. The guy that's running the whole thing that's inviting all these guys who sell you will own nothing and be happy. Running the whole thing. That's normal.

He's in charge of a conference. That everybody shows up. He's got influence. For example, if a guy hosted a conference that said, I want the best fighters in the world to show up to my conference. Who the F are you? But this guy puts it all the fighters show up.

Why? Guy's got influence. Look, I mean, if we were to try to find individual quotes that make political leaders that you and I know look batshit crazy and only talk about those things, we could do that we choose not to yeah why it is that that we've decided that we're gonna key in on this one I don't think it's I think it's the last four or five years

that a lot of people started looking to see and when you make it I mean he said in 2016 right yeah when he said you're on nothing you'll be happy and a leader who says you can make a lot of difference, you grab them by X, Y, Z, right? You know, when Trump said that to whatever the Bush got. Right? Okay. All right.

All right, so what is that? Okay, got it. Inappropriate. Sure. Sure. Another guy says, you know, we gotta get the, they send the worst, they send the rapists and criminals and you know, da da da, oh my God, Trump just called all these,

hey, I mean, stuff has been said, people have some bad days, you know, nothing can be happy is a little bit weird. It's a little bit weird, if you ask me what I think that actually reflects, it reflects a view of a technologically driven, some would say utopian, many more would say dystopian, world when human beings are radically different than they are right now.

If you ask me, if I look at where AI is driving sort of humanity, it's not in a place where most people in the world are going to have a lot of control over productive forces. Labor is getting a lot weaker. Do I think people will be happy about that? No, I don't. I think people, and if they are happy, it's because they're programmed to be happy. I think that everyone says artificial general intelligence is coming. I think that computers are programming us a lot more quickly than we're programming computers.

But we are affected much more as consumers and products as we engage on this stuff. I think that if you put it in that context, I think you would find that what he said is much more aligned with a lot of your most advanced tech thinkers in the world today, and those are places that we should be pushing back against. Yeah maybe let me show you a highlight reel of a Claes

Schwab being Tony Robbins here. Rob if you got a clip, do you have something you want to show us? Here's Claes Schwab. The change can be shaped by us. We have to prepare for a more angry world. How to prepare takes a necessary action to create a fairer world. I see the need for a great reset. So people assume we are just going back to the good old world which we had and everything will be normal again. This is let's say fiction. It will not happen. It's not happen. It's a change.

It's a little weird. Some of the stuff he says it sounds like out of a movie. Yeah, the accent I think definitely helps with that too. Even some of the stuff that he's saying. I don't know. I didn't see anything particularly exciting. You? Honestly. Nothing. You're not excited?

No. Look, the thing about me, you said you followed me for a while. I mean, look, I may be a kid from Chelsea. I'm authentic. I will tell you what I think look I may be a kid from Chelsea. I'm authentic I will tell you what I think I'm actually really enjoying the conversation. I'll tell you what it's not Yeah, so I mean, you know some places you and I clearly agree Some places you and I have less Let's put it this way. I have less knowledge about a lot of the domestic stuff that you're talking about

I have a lot more knowledge on the international stuff So if we don't agree, I think it's mostly because. Let's talk tariffs because tariff is something you do talk about. A lot of world, sure. Right, because let's talk tariffs. So the topic of tariff became hot, I think the last three months of the election. It's always been talked about,

but it's kind of like why I think tariff is the, you know, the best word in the dictionary. After love and after God and after religion, it's got to be tariff, right? He's kind of giving a message. And he's been saying that for decades. He's been saying it for decades, but it became hot the last 90 days where they said, well, if we do this, if we do that. What's your concern with tariffs? Well, first of all, the US, you look at the place that tariffs have caused the biggest conversations over the last 10 years.

It's been China. And Biden and Trump's policies on China have been virtually identical on this issue. Right? I mean, Biden didn't take any of those tariffs off. Sure. He actually added export controls. There is a move towards a decoupling of the global economy from the US and China that had very integrated supply chains to increasingly less integrated supply chains is that good, bad or indifferent. There are some ways where it's good because you have more control over, you know, you

aren't going to be as vulnerable to political intervention stopping you from having stuff. We're finally starting to move some of our semiconductors away from Taiwan. That was a huge mistake the Americans made over the past 30 years in the same way that the Germans made a huge mistake allowing their energy to come from Russia. And by the way some of the Europeans are now talking about let's do that again. That would be another huge mistake if they were to do it. So I believe that there is a utility for national security purposes in using the strength of US economic policy, including tariffs, to help defend the interests of

Americans and its allies. I also think that as the most powerful country in the world, you can use tariffs as a stick that can force countries to negotiate with you in ways that they might not otherwise. So I look at the Mexico conversation right now and Trump willing to credibly say... Just remind you may want to lift it up and put it back up. Oh thank you. There you go. That's good. Trump, Trump credibly saying we're going to hit you hard will make them take Fentanyl more

seriously, will make them take border security in the south more seriously. He will get more from them because he is willing to use sticks for the United States and those sticks are less dangerous if they are tariffs. You're okay with that? Yeah, I'm okay with that. I recognize that tariffs also have costs. We are in a very low tariff environment right now in the world. I think the average tariff on the average good globally is something like 3%. It's almost historic lows. 2%.

Give or take is 2%. It's really low. We only get $80 billion in revenue from tariffs. That's not a big amount of money that comes in. It's not a big amount of money. So, I mean, the fact is that moving a little bit on tariffs, if it gets you some outcomes that you want, is not going to have a massive impact. Let me ask you a question.

What would happen if we went to 25 points? On everybody? Everybody. Well there you would have a significant amount of near-term inflation. Right? I mean that would definitely happen. So, okay, so are you following? And you'd also have a significant impact on the stock market, which would come down. And corporates would take a hit that have exposure to all those markets.

So they'd have to pay costs as a basis of that. Those are the two major things that happen. Are you seeing how he's talking about lowering taxes or getting rid of it and you know, have you heard him giving the speech on taxes lately? Sure. Okay. So there have been their costs to doing that, right? Because you're no longer getting that revenue.

For sure, I totally get it. I'd really like to not see the IRS get defunded because one of the best ways that you ensure that you continue to make revenue is to make sure that people that O taxes actually pay them and are audited. So I do think that's important Yeah, but what he's trying to do is the concept of external revenue service. You heard him talk about. Yeah, absolutely So what what would have we have? I mean he'll rename Organization, but yes, but what would happen if we bumped it up I mean he'll rename the organization, but yes. But what would happen if we bumped it up from two points on average to 25 points, hear me out here. And that would be instead of 80 billion a year, that would put us at around a trillion dollars a year, a rev that's coming in.

Okay? That if you want to do business with us, that's the number. Now obviously it doesn't work that way, it's not black and white because, you know, other things can happen. Sure. Substitution effects and they will come back and hit you with tariffs as well and that's going to be a cost on you and all the same thing. No problem.

But I think at two points, it's nothing. At two points. If we were to go to 25 and we stay at 25 for four years, hypothetically, and then he flips and he lowers taxes on individuals, okay, on individuals that are paying taxes. How would that sit with American people? Would they sit there and say, wait a minute,

you're lowering my federal income taxes? Yeah. You're raising tariffs? Yeah. Interesting. I haven't done the charts to see how the numbers would work. Everybody's people on the left said they'll never work, people on the right said it could work. How do you think the average day-to-day worker who hears that message saying,

let's collect the money that we're not collecting with these other guys unless lower taxes would sit? I don't know how it goes for people that hear the message, but in terms of how they experience the outcomes, I can tell you that people, when they get more money in their income or their taxes go down, psychologically pocket that, that's theirs, they earned it, it's their due. When inflation goes up, they're angry about that.

That's not okay, and it doesn't balance off. So inflation has a significantly greater impact psychologically on people because they're paying that. Now, to be fair, Trump is clearly very concerned about one area of inflation, which he should be, which is oil. And the reason for that is because guys in the United States that are going and filling up their car

actually see the price of oil, price of gas, every week, and they see it by itself, and so they're very sensitive to that. So that helps. And if you bring down the cost of oil, and let's say, you know, so you get oil down to 60 bucks a barrel, which I think is plausible this year, and Trump is leaning into the Saudis to try to get them to this year, and Trump is leaning into the Saudis

to try to get them to pump more, and Trump is leaning into the regs to try to get sort of US drillers to do more, then you might be willing to take more inflation in other aspects, even though he'll get beaten up by the Democrats, and at the end of the day, that might be seen as a wash by the American people. So you might have more flexibility on tariffs.

Now, there are some tariffs that he is talking about putting on that I think are a mistake. So for example, Mexico, you wanna hit the Mexicans really hard right now, they have a government that is, they have a super majority, they can make constitutional changes, the leader's very popular, she is oriented to do everything possible to get to a better deal,

Trump will be seen as a winner That's a smart place to use your strength Canada huge mistake why because Canada is heading into an election cycle and Everyone in Canada has become really angry about what Trump is saying and as a consequence both the liberals and the conservatives saying and as a consequence both the liberals and the conservatives have to outplay each other in who's gonna be tougher to respond to Trump. So he should have waited until after the elections if he wanted to hit the Canadians with tariffs when the US would have a lot more leverage and when the politics wouldn't be a play because instead he's gonna either have to back down which

makes him look weak or he has to keep going and the Canadians have to get into a vicious cycle it's gonna cost us a lot more and that we will see. So I absolutely believe the tariffs are an important even an indispensable tool for the United States in foreign policy but you want to use them strategically. You want to use them in a more you know sort of actual use judgment in how and when you apply them. Trump doesn't do that. Trump sees that he has a tool and he scattershot, uses it everywhere at the same time

and see how it goes, see how it sticks. And you break things that way. So it's not that he's wrong, his political instincts have always been incredibly sharp, but his willingness to actually think through what the implications of some of those knee-jerk statements are and knee-jerk policies are, even as the strongest guy out there, even as a guy who's consolidated power when so many of his allies are weaker,

when the American economy is stronger, when the US has a better technological position, when our military is stronger, he can still make big mistakes. And so I'd rather see him as my president, as your president, I'd rather see him minimize those mistakes. Okay, so this is tariffs here, right? And you said you're not a globalist, but you believe in globalization.

Yes, big difference, yes. Big difference, okay. So this amount of tariffs we used to, revenue used to come in for the US government. Obviously it's a different world today than it was before. Tiny. Tiny. What we had before versus today used to be 80, 90% late 1800s,

then it was 40, 50% until 1910s. Then we were still getting some tariff 1930, 1940, and then all of a sudden 1940-ish, 45-ish goes all the way down to nothing, and we've stayed at that number 2% for a long time until today. and all of a sudden 1940-ish, 45-ish goes all the way down to nothing, and we've stayed at that number 2% for a long time until today. So who did that benefit?

You're saying globalization, if everybody is doing better around the world, it's kind of good, people are making money, they're taking care of themselves, stress is lower, crime's gonna be lower, overreaction's gonna be lower, fine. But don't you think for a country that's helped, when you're looking at the numbers of what the deficiency is between how much China makes with us,

how much they're making off of us versus us the other way around, don't you think he has the leverage to be able to say, look, we're just increasing everything on everybody because people are trying to do business with US, not the other way around? Well, you've got the other way around that compared with The periods of time when tariffs were a lot higher you now have global supply chains that are completely integrated They weren't before I mean you look at us, Mexico

And you'll have cars with components going back and forth sometimes 30 40 times With you know, completely integrated US-Mexico supply chain before it actually gets bought by somebody. You suddenly throw a 25% tariff across the board between US and Mexico and Mexico hits you back with that, then suddenly like you're literally breaking that supply chain in ways that makes absolutely no sense given how corporations and jobs on both sides of the border have been set up for decades So you don't want to suddenly break that because that's gonna cost your corporations and the workers in those corporations an awful lot

So you can't do that. You have to be careful at being more incremental This is what Scott Besson to saying right is that he understands the desire to move towards a higher tariff environment But he wants to do it Incrementally and he wants to be squeezing using that power to get outcomes that are more beneficial for the United States. I accept the fact that there has been free riding in a low tariff environment by a whole bunch of countries that are not necessarily providing for the public good globally what they should be. China today is a middle-income country. They're not a

low-income country. They have not a low-income country. They have advanced technologies. They're ahead of us in post-carbon energy. This is a country that can afford to actually change around their trade relationship with us. They can afford to uphold intellectual property and stop ripping us off. And also, a lot of American companies

aren't as interested in being in China because their economy is doing so badly right now. So the Americans have more leverage in that relationship today and should use it. Absolutely. But you've got to recognize that this is not 1925. No, I recognize that's 1925 but it's also not 1980, 1990, 2000 where we keep doing it for everybody else and we're just kind of leaving that money on the table. So who benefited from globalization? Right?

There are two groups of people that benefited, that really benefited from globalization. It's the top 10% globally, and particularly the top 1 and top 0.0001%, right? And then the global middle class that really benefited from globalization. And the people that didn't benefit from globalization were wealthy people from a global perspective, but in reality, middle and working classes in the United States and Europe and Canada and Japan and South Korea. Those are the people that didn't benefit.

And the reason they didn't benefit is because all of the benefits that came to the wealthy were not reinvested into those countries in ways that would improve education, that would improve health care, that would improve social cohesion. They didn't do that and that's why globalism has failed because you can't be winner-take-all in a more kleptocratic system and forget about your own fellow countrymen because they will say screw you. And that's why you had Brexit, right? That's why you have all these Euro-skeptic movements too. This isn't just the United States.

It's not like the Americans are the ones that have uniquely gotten it wrong and everybody else is on the right side of this. This is a global phenomenon. Okay, I just found where Yuval Hari was considered the brain of Klaus Schwab. Oh, that's very different than going to take over Klaus Schwab. The idea was the fact that he could be his replacement.

This is in the book, Technocracy, The Hard Road to World Order by Patrick Wood. Okay, you read the book, you're thinking the guy's replacing him. No, you're not. No, you're thinking he's his guy, like he's the brain. The brain, I mean,'s he is a very smart guy Yeah, but that's the premise of so for you

so the fact that if someone if someone uses if someone uses your ideas and Enforms your your ideas inform him you're gonna let you know somebody somebody calls You know me the brain of let's just say this guy's the brain. Hey that guy could be his replacement That's how the conversation of youval Hari came into this book. Okay, so I'm glad that you agree with me on that one. No, no, it's not, I agree with you on that one. I'm telling you, that's what the discussion was about. I thought someone was saying he was about

to take over the web. No, no, no. That's not credible, okay fine. That one is not, you're right about that one. But the other one is, this is what prompted that conversation. But the tariff conversation, let's go back to it. I can see that by the way, if you go back to his book,

Sapiens, I can see why Klaus would have found a lot of those ideas very attractive. Right, so going back to, and you know, you've read Sapiens, I've read Sapiens. Everyone's read Diaz Sapiens, yeah. So, but going back to tariffs, okay. My brain goes to a different place. You know, there's a camp that thinks very highly of Nixon,

and Nixon did this, you know, a lot of people, oh my God, you know, water, get all Oh my god, you know water getting all this up But then if you really think about it Scott was a revolutionary guy. Was it good getting off of gold standard? I don't know. Was it good, you know opening up China? I don't know Did we strengthen China did we benefit more from China being open in the economy to be able to get cheap labor all that stuff? Is it that the capitalists of America benefit of America benefit? That's a good question. That's a good question. Companies did, American companies did.

Did the average American? No, no. Look at middle class income in the United States since China's opened, flat. How have Americans, how have the average Americans, how's the average Trump voter saying that they're benefiting from China getting open? No.

But that's exactly where I'm going with that. And now that we were reading five years ago, made in China 2025, they're going to be the world, didn't happen. Didn't happen? Eight years ago, not even five years ago, eight years ago, that didn't happen. Didn't happen. Okay. So they're trying to sell themselves as they're doing very good.

They have a net negative migration rate. They're losing people even, right? Billionaires are trying to get a weight of getting Their money out they can't it's very hard population is shrinking population is shrinking. They got the whole you know, the This population distribution totally it's terrible horrible Yeah, you know the whole one baby rule really backfired on them in a big way. Anyway, three doesn't matter Yeah, it really messed it up. So now but going back to now so maybe maybe matter. It really messed it up. So now we're going back to now. So maybe, maybe Trump and his administration is trying to look at an opportunity here saying, okay, well you're

saying we can't tariff everybody and go this way. No problem. If we continue going the way we're going right now, that shit's not working either. We're in 33 trillion dollars of debt. We're not doing things in a way that's proven that our system is also working if we go this route. So what if we do a massive disruption to the system? What if we do? Would it shake things up? Maybe.

Would it increase people's median income? Because I sit there, I wonder, I'm like, how are people going to buy these houses? Today we had Byron Donalds here. Byron Donalds was, you know who he is. And he says, have to battle with homeowners insurance is the fact that houses cost so much. Salary is not really going that much higher. Houses just skyrocketed the last four years.

Homeowners insurance, I don't wanna have freakin' homeowners insurance. I'm a homeowners insurance insurance, I don't want to have freaking homeowners insurance. I'm a homeowners insurance company. I don't want to be in California. I don't want to be in Florida. Look, I mean, it's so interesting because you've got inside MAGA right now, right? You have a whole bunch of people that are not saying, I want libertarianism. They're not saying I want tiny government.

They're saying, I actually want government to intervene more on my behalf. I want the special interest to get hurt and I want More to stay in the United States and I want the government to do that and yeah, I want tariffs Why do I want tariffs because I want I would much rather have a good job that pays me money What your interpretation is the fact that they're saying they want government to do what government to tariff? Government to ensure industrial policy government to force people to invest in the United States. They want government to do what? Government to tariff, government to ensure industrial policy, government to force people to invest in the United States, they want government to do that. They don't want the free market globally. Yes, look that's not everyone in MAGA, that's not what Elon Musk wants, but there is a core basis that is saying we allowing free markets around the world

and allowing you know sort of, easy capital to move. No, we want government intervention. Do you think Trump wants that or no? I think that Trump is absolutely prepared to use American power to get outcomes that he wants. Trump, in my view, is not a libertarian and Trump is certainly not just a free market guy. I mean he's very transactional and Lord knows, I mean he's in the way he's built his own business. He's built it all over the world and a whole bunch of the

MAGA hats and whatnot have been made in China and you know all of his products. He's not a president, he has no problem with globalization, he's benefited from it. He's had a lot of immigrants from all over the world that are working for his places, not all from the legal... He even talked when he had H1B visa, he supported that. So I mean, where is Trump on the, what I would call deep MAGA versus dark MAGA? Right, I mean, dark MAGA is the globalist wing and deep MAGA is the populist, like, industrial policy wing.

I think Trump's both Trump's both and he has the ability to decide on any of these issues where he wants to play you think he's both or he knows how to dance with both I think he actually different I think he actually is both how do you become both well I mean look Trump used to be a Democrat now he's a Republican right I mean because why he sees that that was where the opportunities were for him to actually win as president, for him to capture a much bigger piece of the vibes or the zeitgeist of the American people.

I don't think that he is consistent ideologically with one side of this argument or the other. I mean, he was very close with Robert Lighthizer last time around, and now you've got his former chief of staff who's running USTR. Lightizer grew up in Ohio working class like me and Chelsea Mass and feels like I would much rather people not have two or three televisions but know that they're gonna have a good opportunity for themselves and their family going forward and if that means you know that we're gonna break some eggs that's okay

I think that resonates with Trump, frankly. Okay, so it's interesting you say that because just this week, remember the whole DeepSeek, this happened four days ago. Of course, the China AI stuff. Yeah, so what do you think about DeepSeek and what do you think about Chad GBT? He says, look, I kinda like it.

Six million dollars out here, they build it for and let's see what happens. I think a little bit of competition is good where it's It's interesting how we dances with this right because that's not a tear of position. No, so it's almost like He he is thinking steps ahead on how to use a certain leverage to negotiate both sides He will lean on allowing in my mind using deep seek to possibly get

the local guys who that have a lot of power the Nvidia the Sam Altman the Chad GPT folks to be like hey, we do more. It's such a very Very interesting he said well, you know right now. There's a lot of people that are participating and wanted to buy tik-tok We got Larry Ellison and, you know, Elon, but also Microsoft seems to be in. You saw that, that just came out yesterday or two days ago. Absolutely, two days ago, yeah. Very interesting.

He was the guy on Huawei in 5G. I remember the CFOs, the daughter in Canada, Iran. That's right, Meng, I mean, and that was a real problem for the Canadians. But at the end of the day, he said big national security problems. So I think it is a mistake to take a read on Trump and say this guy is only tariff man.

This guy also is prepared to cut a deal with anybody. Right? I mean, one of the biggest things the mainstream media has gotten wrong about Trump is they say he's in Putin's pocket. No, he's not. But he's willing to talk to Putin in a way that Biden was not.

I mean, the guy that is telling the Europeans they need to spend more on defense you think Putin wants that it's exactly the opposite Of what Putin wants. Are you happy with him as your president or Biden? There They're very very different people right side what I'm asked. I know am I happier I make more money with Trump Right. My taxes are lower far more people use our services. Are you safer? Am I safer with Trump? Trump wants to end wars, right?

On the other hand, the likelihood that Trump can get some things, I think that the level of tail risks, upside and downside on Trump, are far greater than they were under Biden. So the potential that you get some really big wins that were not conceivable under Biden more likely under Trump. The potential some really big things blow up under Trump more likely than under Biden. Same thing they said under Biden.

Geopolitically. Yeah but you see I think if I would ask you that question yeah in 2017-18 let's just say if I asked you that question in in 2017-18 let's just if I ask you that question in 2016 yeah 2017 I think you would have said Obama that's right I don't think you would have said Trump in 2017 that's right so you see that's the part my view is different no no no what I what I think happened is in a private by yourself without any cameras being around, wink wink, no one's watching. This is a very small podcast, we only get a couple of viewers a week.

I think- People laughing in the background here, just you know. Those are the two people, my wife doesn't watch this, so we got one other person listening to this. I like this, I like the self-deprecation on the pod. It's good, it's good, Pat. No, no, what I'm saying to you is the following. Is that I think deep down inside,

you're kinda happy he's the president, not Biden or Kamala. I don't know if you can say it, because I think you can upset some of your friends. No, no, it's not that. Dinner will be canceled just with a couple of your friends. Bullshit, bullshit, I can say whatever I want.

I can. I don't know if you can. I really can. I wanna protect you. Don't say everything you wanna say. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Consider your career. One of the very few things that has driven my career is the fact that I Have to be able to say what I believe because otherwise I can't live with myself and it's why I've never been in politics

I've never been interested. I've been asked by a bunch of folks life's better under Trump You know, I I really worry you can't say it can you I can't I can't say it, can you? I can't. I can't say it because I... Even though you know it's right. I don't know it's right. I think that there are certain things that Trump has done. Look, we have a ceasefire in Gaza now. That would not have happened under Kamala Harris. I completely accept that.

And he was the one that pushed the Israelis. And he was the one that through Qatar pushed Hamas. That got done. I think it is more likely that we will get a ceasefire on Russia-Ukraine under Trump than we would have under Kama. I think that's true. At the same time, as someone who, you asked me right at the beginning, what got me into what I do?

And it was standing up for rule of law ideals what America stands for someone who truly understands that America leads by example by example and I I find that Trump as a human being does not lead by example. Biden and Kamala do? Neither of them were the people that I would have voted for ideally. does not lead by example. Biden and Kamala do? Neither of them were the people that I would have voted for, ideally. Your only choice is these three. I understand.

And if you ask me where you have an ability to get people around the world to say the United States is a system that I, a political system, that I trust, that I stand with, that I know that I can count on reliably from one administration to the next. I think that the level of longer-term strategic damage which Trump is doing to alliances that matter to the US, I'll give you an example. I mean, I just gave Trump, you know, plaudits on Gaza and on Russia, Ukraine.

I happen to believe, this is a place that I disagree fundamentally with Trump, I believe in a world that's becoming more dangerous and more fragmented, that a strong, cohesive Europe is very valuable for the United States. I believe that. I believe that Europe as a supranational institution supports rule of law, supports transparency, supports human rights, supports, you know, all of the things that we as Americans

have stood and put our hand on our hearts since we were kids. They've lost their minds a little bit. Yes, we have to in the United States in different ways. Have you been to UK to see what UK did? Oh my god. The case study... Let me just make the argument. UK is not in Europe right now. Brexit, I fully get it, but look at the case study of what they've done. Everybody else is following suit. Germany, go to different...

I think that if the UK were still in Europe, they'd be in much better shape right now. Absolutely. And by the way, over 70% of Brits now agree. They recognize this was a huge mistake. So the fact that Trump really believes that Europe should go their separate way and fragment and he wants to support all of these irredentist and Eurosceptic movements, I think is bad for, it's penny wise and pound foolish, quite to use the pun. Long term it's a problem. Leading by example, if Narendra Modi in India, Prime Minister of India, if he were to get on phone calls and meetings with Gautam Adani, the most powerful oligarch in India, and and that Adani was suddenly like part of those conversations and driving policy even though he has no official position,

we'd say that was a banana republic. I really have a problem with the fact that Elon is playing that role right now with Trump. That bothers me. So how do you keep going? What do you think about that relationship and do you think it's gonna work and last? Of course.

Tell me why. I do. Well, one, because Trump is really good at managing relations with people that have a lot more money than him and are very useful to him. That was true. It's true with Steve Schwartzman. It's true with Mohammed bin Salman in Saudi Arabia. And I think Elon is even more useful.

And I also think that Elon is very good at keeping his mouth shut when he needs to, like with China. He's never said anything bad about Xi Jinping. He's had lots of reasons to. His business has had its challenges. He's never. He's more than happy to go after the SEC. He's more than happy to go after the British prime minister. He's more than happy to go after the German chancellor, because they're not going to hurt him. But the Chinese, they can hurt him. So he's very careful. He's very pro-communist party. He says great things about them, all the sort of things that Zuckerberg says to Trump in the last few weeks. Trump is far more important to Elon now than Xi Jinping is.

Not even close. So I think that the ability of these two men to ensure that they continue to keep that relationship very, very strong is extremely high. And everyone I know that really asks the question about, oh, they're not gonna last. Those are people that want them not to last. Well, that's not analysis, that's sales. I mean, if you're just telling me what you want,

it's not a useful judgment on the conversation. So I have a problem with that. So out of all the good things that you said about, Trump has done since he's won, the border is safer, children are gonna be safer, okay, they're going and getting the criminals and sex traffickers out and arresting them, that protects kids, right? Business is open, all these folks are publicly saying they're gonna put a half a trillion dollars, 200 billion dollars, 100 billion dollars, 2 trillion dollars, whatever they're

saying Saudi Arabia, that's a good thing that they're putting money here that benefits the American employees right here. Russia, Ukraine, so you said 90% of things, he's done better to make your life better as your CEO of the country that you've chosen to live in. The one thing that makes you be more supportive of a Kamala and a Biden than him is because of his relationship with Musk. No, that wasn't the only thing I said. What else did you say?

I did, I talked about Europe, I talked about rule of law. Look, I- Rule of law? Yes. Do you think rule of law, like, seriously, I mean, on the rule of law situation, like, what they did to him the last 18 months, you think that was okay?

You think they didn't abuse the rule of law against a candidate that's going up against a competitor? Oh, the New York cases? I absolutely thought that was abusive and I said it at the time. They went to Mar-a-Lago. Do you think he's gonna do worse than what they did to him the last 18 months? Ian, you're a very smart guy. We'll see. We'll see. I don't know. I mean I'm deeply worried. I am deeply worried about the fact that he has taken the national security detail off of Mike Pompeo and John Bolton, who the Islamic Republic are trying to assassinate. I think that is one of the most irresponsible decisions by a president I have ever seen

in my life, honestly. And why is he doing it? Because he wants to show he can? Because they did bad things to him? Because they were inadequately loyal even after they worked for him? That's bullshit. I'm sorry.

So again, I know you agree with that. I know you agree with that. Hear me out though. Do you? Agree with that. Answer my question. I've asked all your questions. Answer that one because I can tell that one

that troubles you. You, I'm not gonna say. You're not gonna do it. No, one because I can tell that one that troubles you. I'm not gonna say. You're not gonna do it. No, it's not about I'm not gonna do it. You haven't done any of it I've asked you so far. I have. So let me finish mine and I'll give you mine. I will, okay?

Okay. I'll ask it, I'll give it to you. So just the part on where I wanna go with this. Okay, predictions. You said, I don't know. I said how they've treated him, the government and the abuse of power the last 18 months. You think he's gonna do worse than they did to him? You said, I don't know, we'll see. Okay. I don't know, I said how they've treated him, the government and the abuse of power the last 18 months, you think he's gonna do worse than they did to him?

You said, I don't know, we'll see. Okay. I don't know. Well, come on. I don't. But fine, but let me ask you this question. We have a news site called VTNews.ai. We hired 15 machine learning engineers,

and it's a news site that tells you which story's leaning on the left, being reported, if you look at it, that story's being reported more from the left and the right, sports, politics, business, and there's AI component, you can ask questions. And on the bottom right of the website, we have a new initiative we're doing right now

called The First 100 Days, to see how good people are at making predictions, right? Trump's first 100 days, what kind of predictions are they gonna make? You're a prediction guy. You look at my top right. Yeah, I'm gonna read it. I'm gonna say it at the bottom.

So here's your prediction, right? Read it, Right at the bottom. Trump fails. Red herring. Well, that's where you're going, right? So no, no, I'm not going there. I'm not going there. Darn it. Your prediction is top 10 global risk for 2024. I'm gonna read them. Yeah. I'm sorry, 2025, not 2024. Yeah. Ian Bremmer, legit guy, 250 employees, smart guy, brilliant, 15 years old college, Tulane, Russia, 86, 89 employees smart guy brilliant 15 years old college Tulane Russia 86 89 crazy guy crazy guy I love him. I like him a lot. I just met him for the first time today Right, but you're like he's surprised so fun and charming. No, I actually like him So Ian Bremmer's top risks for 2025. Yeah, maybe we'll have dinner to get the next year in Davos

Who knows but let me read this to you Number one, they're gonna say the Armenians are in charge of the great reset. Can you imagine that? It's going to be horrible. The G-Zero world. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Number two, rule of dawn.

Rule of dawn, yeah. Number three, US China breakdown. Yeah. Number four, Trumponomics. Yeah, sure. Number five, Russia rogue role. Number six, Iran on the ropes. Number seven, global economic fragmentation.

Number eight, AI unbound. Number nine, ungoverned spaces. Number eight, AI unbound, number nine, ungoverned spaces, number 10, Mexican standoff, right? Okay, cool. We're playing a game that's a movie simulation, okay? And it's 2016. And this technology we have can predict that the next nine years from 2015 to 20... Let's just go...

Yeah. 16 to 25, yeah. From 16 to 25, January 20th. It shows you everything, Trump's first term and Biden's first term. It shows you everything except for one thing. Which of the two presidents and who they pardon, if I was to ask you in 2026, Mr. Prediction, who is more likely to pardon his entire family?

Oh yeah, at that point you would have said Trump. No, who would you have said? I would have said Trump. But who did? It was Biden. So think about what you just said. I asked you the last 18 months they destroyed this guy's life yeah and I said do you think he's gonna do the same you said we'll see but when I asked you who you

think is gonna pardon his own family he never pardon his own family and this guy pardons his own family yeah it's interesting it's never happened before to see something like this yeah any pardons Fauci any pardons Milley any part I thought it was a huge mistake. Again. But that's the part where that is as a, something gives me, I'm not going to ask you who you voted for, but I have a feeling you didn't vote for Trump. Yeah, I'm public. I didn't vote for Trump. So let's say you didn't vote for Trump.

I didn't, yeah. But the question becomes, this is why I think the Democratic Party took the biggest black eye ever because we were told this is the guy that's going to pardon something that's unfamil- That's right. Won't do it. And we were told, Biden said no man is above the law and he pardoned his entire family. Do you know what happened to the Democratic credibility to me? Right here.

It got hurt. Not hurt. Completely. This is not hurt. This is the first time in history. It's shattered. Yes. It's shattered and it hurt a lot of the experts who were saying there, well here's what's going to happen. 51 secret intelligence signed off that there's nothing in the laptop and Russian collusion, shift and all this. Credibility was shot. I agree. I think that again, I think the country is incredibly divided and I think that what you are talking about is something that is very widely felt by you know pretty much everyone that would consider vote for voting for Trump and I think everyone on the Democratic side would

say they do it, this was necessary because look how bad Trump was gonna be. That's what they'll say. That's what they'll say. Where is there space for someone that actually have a conversation that can engage with both sides, that can be balanced across, and the fact is, it's a really hard thing to do. It's easier in other countries. It's a reality.

It's uncomfortable, but I'm not prepared to say this is all kumbaya on the Republican side. Your life is better today under this guy than the Biden or look I mean, I I know you can't I spend most of my time. Yeah, most of my time thinking about the world I spend most of my time thinking about the 8 billion people that are here. I understand that I'm American I understand that you know We care about Americans first and foremost the end of the day as someone who was born here

foremost, the end of the day, as someone who was born here by by stroke of luck and I'm enormously appreciative about that, but do I consider that Americans matter fundamentally more than everybody else around the world? No, I kind of feel like we're all human beings on this little ball and I really care about what the little ball is going. And I believe you're being sincere. I'm being completely sincere. No, no, what I'm saying is we've never met. This is the first time we're talking. I believe you're being sincere. And I worry more about the future of all of us on the little ball with Trump.

I do, I really do. And I'm on the complete opposite side of my level of optimism to people around the world. We ran election night, okay? Election night, we ran election night. Okay, election night we ran the number one live stream worldwide on YouTube. That doesn't mean anything to you, I don't mean the numbers on what it is.

But we're in DC. That's pretty cool, that means something to me. No, no, what I'm saying to you is numbers wise, like what does that really mean? We're in DC, we're talking to YouTube CEO and Google CEO, you know who they are, and how'd you guys run the biggest live and what happened? We had 2,000 people on our hangar. You've seen the property. They hang around the other side, right? Yeah, 2,000 people are there. You know where people were from all over the world guy flew 24 hours from Australia to come

I said, why are you here? He says this you may not know this Whatever happens here. We're gonna feel it Everyone were so glad Trump is in because the amount of games that was played under Biden and Kamala we're just so happy finally another person is in that's not imposing ridiculous ideas and policies to us and so I'm in though and I'm telling you two countries that are closest to us that know us best that do the most business with us, that travel the most to our country, Mexico and Canada, overwhelmingly, these are people,

it's not that they're scared of Trump, it's that they really think that things are going to be worse. Trudeau goes and has dinner with him right after having, oh, that was horrible. Trudeau goes and has dinner with him a week later, he resigns. Don't ask me to defend Trudeau. Well, you just did. I know I didn't. You said Canada. Oh, that was horrible. Trudeau goes and have dinner with him a week later, he resigns. Don't ask me to defend Trudeau.

Well, you just did. I know I didn't. You said Canada. What, I said Canada? I'm talking about Canadians. Have you seen his rating is with his own people? Have you seen how conservatives feel about Trump and Elon? Well.

Even worse. I don't know about that. That is absolutely true. Listen, I know what Pierre said. Like I heard what Pierre said when he said, Canada will never be the 51st state. And he has to say that. Of course, he has to say something like that. It's not just that.

It's because everybody feels that way. And no, but the point is with, am I sitting there trying to really make those guys happy? No. We've made them happy. Their life's been better because of America, the amount of opportunities they've had because of us. Yet, Mexico, you're sending 10 million people over, Columbia guy gets up and talks shit at 3.40 in the morning, someone's saying he was drunk and immediately the day later's

like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. No, I think there's a guy in charge in America that his priority is me first, and as a guy that lived in Iran for 11 years almost two years Germany and I've been here my entire life since then I'm glad that this guy's for me over anybody else that he's willing to give money to then I was thinking where I will tell you and where we agree strongly yeah is I really want him to succeed I love that I do not want I want him to. I love that, and I respect that. That's important. Yeah, I respect that.

And we need more people, no matter who they vote for, to be able to come together and say that, because I really wanted Biden to succeed. And I hope you did too, you know? He was your president. You wanted Biden to succeed, didn't you? When he was there? Of course I wanted. Of course you did.

By the way. Of course you did. It shouldn't be hard for us to say. No. And I mean, you know, at the end of the day, succeeding as the American president is in the most powerful country in the world, in a much stronger position now than we have been in a very long time,

means everybody succeeds. It really should. What will need to happen for you to say life was better under Trump, that what needs to happen the next year, two years, three years? I'm gonna invite you back. We're gonna go to dinner.

I'll tell you. What needs to happen the next year, two years, three years? I'm going to invite you back. We're gonna go to dinner. I'll tell you. What needs to happen for the great Ian Bremmer to say my life changed positively under Trump? What needs to happen? Armenians are stubborn. I am very stubborn, but if the world is in a more stable place, if we are able to actually build leadership not just Americans, but also for people wanting to follow us around the world, right? And we see that definably, right? In aligning more with like collective ideas of what we have. The world is fragmenting and falling apart. We need to come together. And that means it can't just be America first. So let me ask you, so if your parents, let's just say you're, are you married?

You got kids? No kids, but I'm married, yeah. Okay, so let's just say you're married, okay? Let's say you're in a house with mom and dad, four kids, I'm just making up a number, you're in the family. What's more important, would you rather have your family, marriage, family life, everything be good there, or bring it down two notch but make sure everybody else's marriage is also better around the community? I mean, you got...

That's a very good question. Do I... many, many years ago... My mother would have voted for Trump. And I love your mother. I think your mother is... And Bernie Sanders. And she wouldn't have... She would have voted for Bernie?

Without a question. She would never vote for an establishment politician. Ever. Like Hillary. Ever. Or Bush. Never. Never.

She didn't trust those people. Because they did nothing for her kids. Nothing for her kids. They knew. She fundamentally knew that everything they said was a lie. So she would have not voted for Kamala or Biden? No, I don't think she'd be for Kamala or Biden. I think she would have voted for anyone on the far left or far right.

I think she would have voted for RFK. Far left or far right I think she would have voted for RFK left or far right Wow Yeah, I mean she brought the national because of the anti-sense I read I learned how to read in part with the National Enquirer every week You know shit and everyone that I grew up with the projects were like that. Yeah, of course well to me, I think many many years ago, I was a Salesperson I went from being an employee to a salesperson, started making money. Then I became a sales leader. When I was a sales leader, I was making a lot of money.

Well, my guys were making money. It was 27, 28 years old. And I'm like, yeah, we gotta make some money and my guys gotta make some money as well. And then I, for about three years, all I read, any book I read was all about leadership books. So it's my obsession, it's all I read. Everything was about leadership books.

And then I realized, you know, the mindset was about making sure guys are doing better, then people started making money, and I said, okay, so what is the philosophy of leadership? It was two things. One is the example, okay? The the example you said how you live you're setting an example how you live and then the other one is getting people to do things they typically wouldn't do on their own that's the art of persuasion challenge

and drive and motivating whatever you want to call that right I think Trump is doing his best to set the example as America's gonna lead the free world. And number two, in his own creative ways, using tariffs, challenge, threats, opportunities, he's trying to get people that would do things that they typically wouldn't do on their own, such as increasing the amount of money they're giving to NATO, such as getting their actor to get back to work.

There's a, who was the president of this country? It's like some of you guys are asking, America's no longer sending us money. Do you know which one I'm talking about, Rob, that Brandon and I were talking about earlier with Rob? You know which one this is, and he says, why are you waiting for America to send us money? Listen, we need to take care of our country.

We need to do something about it. Rob, can you, Brandon, can you send this clip to Rob? Is it Vinny? Was it Bukele, or was it? Oh no, this is a clip that came out yesterday that was going viral on Twitter. I wanna finish on this, but I wanna show this. Brandon, if you can send this clip,

it's such an innocent clip, but it makes so much sense. Yeah, I believe I have it. Vinny, you said Vinny sent it. Yeah, Vinny sent it. I have it. If you can go to it, I'll take it. That's exactly the one. Kenyan president. Kenyan president, watch this. Ruto, yeah. Yeah, Vinny send it. I have it if you can go to it. I'll take that's exactly the one Kenyan president Kenyan president watch Ruto. Yeah. Yeah, watch this good go back

Crying oh, I don't know Trump has removed money He said he's not giving us any more money What one alia why are you crying? It's not your government. It's not your country. More audio a little bit, Rob. Watch. He has he has no he has no reason to

to give you anything. I mean, you don't pay taxes in America. Wow. Appealing to his people. This is a wake up call for you to say, okay, what are we going to do? That's right. Instead of crying to do, what are we going to do? What are we going to do? Yeah. I think that's the mindset. To support ourselves. I think the mindset is to support ourselves You don't pay taxes in America. He doesn't owe you nothing. I agree So that's the part where for the last four years it's been the other way around

We the taxpayers are sending money to people that were like why we send a money to this book I completely understand why the average American would hear that it would resonate with them. I get it. I will tell you that if you are in the top 1%, the 0.1%, or if you're in the government and aligned with them, and you have benefited from exploiting resources all over the world, you've benefited from us pumping carbon into the atmosphere when so many of these countries

have not had a chance to globalize. And now they're saying, what's going to happen to us? Whether you're a tiny little country in Southeast Asia or Sub-Saharan Africa, the idea that the Americans don't owe anything to anybody else in the rest of the world is not something that I sit well with. I'm just telling you, I'm telling you man. And I think that this is a conversation that I wanna see more Americans actually have. It's not just long form, but it's like looking at it

from two completely different reasonable perspectives. And that's why these are my favorite conversations. And I wanna finish off by saying thank you for coming out to the audience. I hope you guys enjoyed this as much as I have. I can't wait for him to come back and tell us how great President Trump's been and be a spokesperson, maybe even make a long-form video

being complimentary about the president. I'm looking forward to that day. Whether it'll happen or not, who knows? Maybe a little bit of inspiration for mom you know to come out and say my mom's the anti-establishment side of your mom but either way I look forward to continuing this conversation with you I got smarter I enjoyed it the debate was fun and your class act very likable thanks appreciate your time thanks man appreciate you take care

gonna be with you gang take care everybody. Bye bye bye bye. Nowadays more than ever, the brand you wear reflects and represent who you are. So for us, if you wear a Future Looks bright hat or a value taming gear, you're telling the world, I'm optimistic, I'm excited about what's gonna be happening but you're a free thinker, you question things, you like debate.

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