PBS News Hour - Full Show - August 27, 2025 – PBS News Hour full episode

Episode Date: August 28, 2025

Wednesday on the News Hour, a shooting at a Catholic school in Minneapolis leaves multiple dead and many more injured. FEMA employees who signed a letter criticizing the Trump administration are placed on leave in the latest example of the president cracking down on dissent. Plus, Judy Woodruff travels to Northern Ireland to explore what Americans can learn from its history of political divisions. PBS News is supported by - https://www.pbs.org/newshour/about/funders. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy

Good evening. I'm Jeff Bennett. And I'm Amna Nawaz. On the news hour tonight, just days into the new school year, a shooting at a Catholic school in Minneapolis leaves multiple dead and many more injured. FEMA employees who signed a letter criticizing the Trump administration are placed on leave, and the latest example of the president cracking down on dissent. And Judy Woodruff travels to Northern Ireland to explore what American can learn from its history of political divisions. I think a key for any person in American leadership is

to ensure that you never descend into political balance, as we did here. The cost of that is absolutely incredible. Welcome to the News Hour. Another mass shooting, this time, during Mass at a Catholic school in Minneapolis, has left at least two young children dead and another 17 people injured, most of them children. Authorities say they don't yet know of a motive, but said the shooter released a manifesto in social media that has since been taken down. William Brigham begins our coverage.

In South Minneapolis this morning, excitement for the first week of school turned to terror. As an attacker, armed with a rifle, shotgun and pistol, opened fire into the window of the church at Annunciation Catholic school. As the morning went on, ambulances lined the street, and parents and loved ones, clearly overwhelmed with fear, rushed to the family reunification zone near the school. My husband's a firefighter, and he got a phone call this morning and said that there was an incident at Annunciation,

and that's where my niece and nephew go to school. We live nearby, so he just took off on foot. and my brother-in-law is a firefighter, too. But it just is so awful and it's so scary. And I just am really proud of my husband and my brother-in-law for just running into the danger. And I just pray for the community. The grandfather of a 10-year-old student at Annunciation

told the news hour that his grandson was in shock, having seen a friend covered in blood. The sheer cruelty and cowardice of firing into a church, church full of children is absolutely incomprehensible. Minneapolis Police Chief Brian O'Hara called this a deliberate act of violence against innocent children. At this point, we know we have a total of 19 victims from this tragedy. Two were young children ages 8 and 10 that were sitting in the pews at mass when they were shot and killed. They were pronounced deceased on the scene.

There were another 14 children between the kids. the ages of six and 15 that were injured by gunfire. There were also three adults in their 80s that were parishioners here attending mass that were also shot in this incident. On Truth Social, President Trump wrote that he was, quote, fully briefed on the tragic shooting in Minneapolis, Minnesota. The FBI quickly responded, and they are on the scene. FBI director Cash Patel said the attacker, who is identified as Robin Westman, is being investigated as having committed an act of terrorism and a hate crime targeting Catholics. Officials also confirmed the suspect is dead from a self-inflicted gunshot.

Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Fry expressed his anger, noting the children were in the middle of their first mass of the school year. Don't just say this is about thoughts and prayers right now. These kids were literally praying. It was the first week of school. They were in a church. These are kids that should be learning with their friends. They should be playing on the playground.

They should be able to go to school or church in peace without the fear or risk of violence, and their parents should have the same kind of assurance. Minnesota governor, Democrat Tim Walz, said today's tragedy is an all-too common occurrence. We'll stand with this community. We'll redouble ourselves to do the best we can to understand what we can do to prevent any parent from having to receive the calls they

received today. The principal of Annunciation Catholic urged leaders to do more. Please pray, but don't stop with your words. Let's make a difference and support this community, these children, these families, these teachers, never again, and we let this happen. Over the past two days, mass shootings in Minneapolis have left at least 26 people. people, dead or injured. Lisa Elm lives blocks away from today's shooting. To hear the sirens is just, you just don't hear that every day. And I just wanted to be here

to support anyone that needed it. For the PBS News Hour, I'm William Brangham. Police said the assailant had purchased multiple weapons recently and legally and is believed to have acted alone. FBI director Cash Patel also said the shooter identified as transgender. For more, joined now by Minneapolis Democratic Mayor Jacob Fry. Mr. Mayor, we are grateful for you joining us under such painful circumstances that two children just eight and ten years old were sitting in church pews when they were shot and killed. It is a horror that defies comprehension. How are you and your community beginning to grapple with this incredible loss in trauma? It's an unspeakable. It's an unspeakable. tragedy, but how many times have you heard politicians say that something is an unspeakable

tragedy? What I know about our Minneapolis family here is that they are wrapping their arms around the families of these victims. These are kids. Think about them not just as somebody else's kids. Think about them as your own. We all have these daily rituals as you send your kids off to school or daycare, whether that's putting a headband on or giving them a kiss or whispering a few kind words in their ear, every single family should be able to send their kids off to school or church or daycare with the assurance that they're going to be safe and they're going to be able to come back. What I know about Minneapolis is that we are incredibly strong and resilient. And from the teachers that protected these children, literally

hiding them under pews, to the faculty at enunciation, to the law enforcement professionals and police officers that were running towards danger when so many of the rest of us would have run in the other direction, to the rest of our Minneapolis community that is going to do everything possible that we are wrapping our arms around these families right now. We're strong, we're resilient, we're going to get this through this together. But yeah, obviously, this is horrific. And it's got to be a whole lot more, than words and prayers. These children were literally praying. We need action now. It can't just be, let's say, that this will never happen again. We're going to do everything possible to make

sure this never happens again. We've got to actually do it. Now's the time. The 17 people who were injured, 14 of them children between the ages of 6 and 15, to the best of your knowledge, how were they doing? We have had a multiple. multi-jurisdictional approach to make sure that victims of this horrific act of cowardice got to the hospital as soon as possible. Tragically, there are two kids that are dead. This could have been a whole lot worse. And so obviously I'm grateful to everyone that's stepped up to keep people safe. Families have been reunited. Health professionals and doctors, and nurses have been working tirelessly to make sure that people are okay and they get the kind

of care that they need. Mental health response and service is also available to anybody that needs it. And at the same time, of course, the community is reeling. And at the same time, a broader Minneapolis family is committed to doing everything possible to helping these families that are experiencing just an amount of unspeakable sadness and, I'm sure, anger. I want to ask you about the investigation because the FBI is investigating the shooting as an act of domestic terrorism and a hate crime targeting Catholics. What does that mean in practical terms, both for the investigation and for how the city understands the motive behind the attack? So I can't speak to everything that the feds are working right now in terms of their investigation, but the Minneapolis Police Department is investigating. We're working with the State Bureau of Criminal Apprehension.

And we're obviously going to take this investigation wherever it leads. Obviously, this was an act of hate. If you don't have some form of hate in your heart, you're not going and shooting up a church with kids. These were kids. And so the investigation is ongoing right now. We're working with a number of different agencies and organizations to make sure that we get to the bottom of every last question,

and then we'll follow it wherever it leads. Minnesota has a red flag law that allows firearms to be temporarily removed from people who are deemed to be a danger to themselves or to others. We don't know enough about what transpired to know whether that would have prevented this tragedy. But how does it work? And what more needs to be done at the state and federal level to prevent another tragedy like this from happening again?

I can't speak to all the specific circumstances of this tragedy. and so I also can't speak of what would have prevented it from happening. But generally, generally speaking, let's just be very real here. We have too many guns in America. When you have more guns than you have people, you've got a problem. When people are able to get guns that are in some form of severe mental health crisis, you got a problem. if you have school shooting after school shooting

and church shooting after church shooting and it continues to happen you got a problem that would say to most reasonable people you got to do something about it this by the way has happened in other countries like once or twice and then they do something about it

we owe this to our children this should be not out of hate for any community It should not be out of hate for any sort of politician. This should be out of love for our kids. I am a father of a four-and-a-half-year-old. I'm the father of a three-week-year-old. And, you know, we've all got titles in our professional lives. But the titles that matter most to me are husband and dad. I'm not unique. we need to understand how much we love our kids and make sure that we're imparting that love on every single member of our community. It's on us now to act.

Mayor Jacob Fry, you and your city are very much in our thoughts as you navigate this tragedy. Thank you for your time this evening. Thank you so much for having me. The day's other headlines begin in Washington, D.C., where the Trump administration is taking over management of the city's main rail hub union station. It's the latest effort to put the capital city further under federal control. To be clear, the government already owns the facility, but it had been managed by Amtrak. Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy announced the federal takeover at a launch event for Amtrak's

new Acella high-speed train. Duffy called the iconic train station a point of pride for the city that had, quote, fallen into disrepair. We are going to make the investments to make sure that this station isn't dirty, that we don't have homelessness. We're going to take Union Station back under DOT control. Not a power play. We've always had it. But we think that we can manage the property better.

In a separate event today, D.C. Mayor Muriel Bowser said increased federal involvement in the district has helped, particularly to reduce violent crime and auto theft. But she disagreed with some of their methods. We know having masked ice agents in the community has not worked, and National Guards from other states has not been an efficient use of those resources. Meanwhile, federal prosecutors have reportedly failed to indict a man who threw a sandwich at a federal agent in Washington earlier this month. Video of the episode went viral on social media and became a flashpoint in the D.C. federal crackdown. The Associated Press and other outlets are reporting that a grand jury rejected the felony charge against Sean Charles Dunn. It's unclear if prosecutors will plan to try again.

The head of the CDC, Susan Menares, has left the agency just weeks after taking the role. That's according to the Department of Health and Human Services, which oversees the CDC. The longtime government scientist was confirmed by the Senate late last month after President Trump pulled his first pick, that was former Congressman Dave Weldon, over concerns about his views on vaccines and autism. Menares has been overseeing an agency still reeling from a shooting earlier this month at its Atlanta headquarters that left a police officer dead. Also, the CDC's medical officer and the head of the agency's vaccine unit both resigned today. The FDA approved updated COVID-19 vaccines today for the fall and winter seasons,

but with new restrictions. The agency approved jabs from Pfizer-Modermin, and Novavax for those 65 and older. But younger people will need to have at least one underlying medical condition to get a shot like obesity. And those under 18 can still get vaccinated if a medical provider is consulted. The FDA also said that Pfizer's version of the vaccine will no longer be available for kids under five. The new rules are a change from prior U.S. policy, which recommended annual COVID shots for all Americans six months and older. Kilmar-Abrego-Garcia says he wants to seek asylum in the U.S.

Lawyers for the Salvadoran National told a federal judge today about that request during a hearing into a separate effort to prevent his deportation to Uganda. The 30-year-old was re-arrested earlier this week as officials seek to deport him for a second time. He was mistakenly deported to El Salvador earlier this year and then returned to the U.S. in June to face human smuggling charges. Officials have claimed that he's part of this. dangerous MS-13 gang. Abraigo Garcia denies this and has pleaded not guilty to the charges. Israel said today that the evacuation of Gaza City is inevitable ahead of its planned offensive

there. That came as Gaza health officials reported at least 39 deaths today in Israeli attacks. They also said two more people died as a result of Israeli strikes on a hospital earlier this week. That death toll now stands at 22, including journalists, first responders, and others. Israel says it's investigating the attack and maintains without evidence that six of those killed were militants. The meantime, at the UN... It is entirely man-made. And every security council member except the U.S. said today that human actions are to blame for the famine in Gaza and

warned that using starvation as a weapon of war is illegal. The acting U.S. ambassador to the UN said the assessment declaring famine isn't legitimate. Denmark summoned the top U.S. diplomat in the country today amid allegations of a covert influence operation by U.S. citizens in Greenland. Mark Stroh arrived at the Foreign Ministry just hours after Denmark's public broadcaster said that three Americans, all with ties to the Trump administration, have been working to whip up opposition to Danish rule in Greenland. The report did not name the Americans.

President Trump has said he wants to control the mineral-rich island, which is a semi-autonomous territory of Denmark. Both Greenland and Denmark have said it's not for sale. India is feeling the weight of higher U.S. tariffs that took effect today. President Trump had initially hit India with a 25 percent baseline tariff rate in July. But this month he added another 25 percent, citing India's purchasing of Russian crude oil, bringing the total rate to 50 percent. India's government estimates the tariffs will impact more than $48 billion worth of exports. Analysts say labor-intensive sectors like textiles, leather, and cars will be hit hardest.

India's Prime Minister Narendra Modi has said he will not give in to U.S. pressure. On Wall Street today, stocks ended higher ahead of a highly anticipated earnings report from chipmaker Navidia. The Dow Jones Industrial average added nearly 150 points. The NASDAQ rose 45 points. S&P 500 closed at a new all-time high. And today marked the 80th anniversary of the mother of all food fights, the Tomatina Festival in Spain. Thousands descended on the town in Valencia to hurl tomatoes at each other for one

raucous and rather messy hour. A total of 120 tons of overripe tomatoes were used that is roughly the the weight of a blue whale. Participants must squash the tomatoes before throwing them to minimize the impact. Even still, people wore goggles and earplugs. Organizers say not to worry about the food waste, as the tomatoes would have been thrown out anyway,

but the laundry bill must have been astronomical. Still to come, on the news hour, Russia and Ukraine attack each other's energy infrastructure, leading to massive power outages. Understanding cracker barrels return to its old, logo after massive backlash. And Judy Woodruff explores what the U.S. could learn from Northern Ireland's history of political violence. This is the PBS News Hour from the David M. Rubenstein studio at W.E.T.A. in Washington. And in the west from the Walter Cronkite School of Journalism at Arizona

State University. Approximately 20 employees at the Federal Emergency Management Agency have been placed on leave after they signed an open letter on Monday criticizing the Trump administration's cuts and personnel decisions at the agency. The letter warns the changes undermine progress FEMA's made and the decades after Hurricane Katrina, a storm that slammed into the Gulf Coast 20 years ago this week, killing more than 1,000 people and displacing hundreds of thousands more. We're joined now by someone who has nearly a decade of experience at the top of that agency,

Craig Fugate, who was nominated by Barack. Obama and served as FEMA administrator from 2009 to 2017. Craig Fugate, welcome back to the NewsHour. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me. So this letter was signed by 180 current and former FEMA staffers, many of them doing so anonymously. In the letter, they said they sent it, quote, to prevent not only another national

catastrophe like Hurricane Katrina, but the effective dissolution of FEMA itself and the abandonment of the American people such an event would represent. And, Craig, before we get into the details of the letter, what does it say to you that they felt the need to send it at all? You know, every federal employee takes an oath of office. And that oath of office refers to, you know, defending the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. But it goes down further and says uphold the duties of your office. And that's an oath you're sworn to. So for these people to find that they were placed in a situation where if they followed their oath, they needed to speak up.

It had been a lot easier just to go along and keep their jobs. Many of these folks will face potential termination. They knew those risks. So to me, knowing the people I worked with at FEMA, it's somewhat extraordinary that they put everything on the line to get the word out to the public. And the fact that many of them were placed on leave as a result of signing on to that letter, what does that say to you? It's interesting because there are certain whistleblower protections. There's also freedom of speech. As long as they're doing their jobs and not failing to carry out direction, there's not much

that I think they can do as far as terminations, although I think they'll find a way. So probably the least egregious thing they could do is to put them on leave with pay and make them check in daily. Sort of like a purgatory for federal employee. You are not able to do your job, but at the same time, you're not allowed to go do anything else. So there's two central complaints in the letter I want to get your take on. One is the staffing cuts, the other is the leadership at the agency. On the latter, the concern seems to be that the acting administrator right now, David Richardson, does not have any disaster

response experience. And on the former, it's the fact that a third of the agency's full-time staff have now left the agency this year. When you look at who's in charge and who is left to do the work, do you think FEMA can see through its mission? Is it able to do the work it's supposed to do? Well, I'm not there, and it's hard to say. Obviously, employees there felt that, but I refer everybody back to the Post-Katrina Emergency Management Reform Act, of which Senator Collins was the primary author.

A key component of that was establishing the requirements for a female administrator. And if you notice, the administration is very careful. They never say acting administrator. I think they are aware that they would perhaps invoke. the clause of the requirements to serve in that position. So they seem to be using terminology to avoid the statute. But the statute stands. It hasn't been repealed.

I've seen no instance where Congress has granted any deferments on that. There are other provisions in there that says the secretary may not substantially change FEMA's mission, reorganize it. Again, a lot of this came out of what was going on at FEMA prior to Katrina. and the findings of Congress should not repeat that going forward. Well, when you look at this administration's plans for this agency, we know both President Trump and Secretary Nome have said at some point they want to eliminate FEMA. They've both since backed off that language somewhat.

But the president's 2026 budget does call for $646 million in cuts. What would be the impact of those kinds of cuts? Who does it affect? Well, depends on where the money's being cut. A lot of this is going to be in preparedness activities, training funds, grants that want the state and local governments. And you need to remember, a lot of these funds were created in the aftermath of the terrorist attacks on 9-11.

And so as we have built the capabilities to respond to greater events, including terrorist events, we've gone through several phases of reduced funding. When I was at FEMA, we went through reduced funding during sequestation and reduced funding. this would continue that trend. Again, this is policy. This is something that Congress ultimately has to decide. And ultimately, the question will be, if we reduce the funding for preparedness activities, what does that mean to be able to respond and recover from disasters? Especially since there's a lot of discussion about moving more of the reoccurring routine disasters back to the state and local governments to manage with FEMA being primarily for the larger catastrophic disaster. responses. So we're marking 20 years since Hurricane Katrina this week. People largely look back on it now and think the storm was the first disaster, the federal response, and in many ways was the second disaster. Do you worry now that you could see the same kind of disaster when it comes to a federal response given the pace and intensity of natural disasters we're seeing? I'm very concerned.

I think when you look at what we learn from Katrina, probably the biggest one is leaders, leadership, second one is speed. Congress directed that FEMA going forward from Katrina would not have to wait for former request from a governor. That was one of the things that came up over and over again is that FEMA really can't act until governor asked. And again, as everybody talks about reforming FEMA, Congress has in the House Transportation Infrastructure proposed major reform, many of which would address issues the president has brought up. But just merely taking FEMA apart or abolishing FEMA, I don't think it's the answer. Former FEMA administrator Craig Fugate joining us tonight.

Craig, thank you so much for your time. Thanks for having me. Those suspensions at FEMA are just the latest example of the Trump administration targeting critics of the president or his perceived political enemies. The last week has seen an FBI search of the home and office of Trump's former national security advisor and an attempt to remove a member of the Federal Reserve Board. Being the focus of Trump's ire is something that Miles Taylor knows all too well. While serving in the Department of Homeland Security during President Trump's first administration,

he anonymously published a book criticizing the president. He's been dealing with the fallout ever since, including investigations launched after Trump re-entered the White House. And Miles Taylor joins us now. Miles, good to see you again. Great to be with you. Let's just start with what we've seen over the last week. Plus, when you saw the John Bolton raids, the attempt to fire the Fed Governor Lisa Cook, the two dozen female employees or so were placed on leave, what did you think? What went through your head?

It's happening. It's all happening. The things that many of us have forecast for years would happen in a second Trump administration if he was not surrounded by people who said, Mr. President, this is illegal or Mr. President, this is unconstitutional, well, then we would see the fruition of the thing that many of us saw behind the scenes with the president. I mean, look, I wanted Donald Trump to be successful in the first Trump administration. I did not know the man. When I came into that administration, though, and I saw with what regularity the president cooked up ideas that were so obviously illegal on their face, that made me and a lot of other people very, very worried. And we felt like we needed to go out and tell folks that that was the case. Unfortunately,

you know, he's come back into office and a lot of those things he wanted to do that lawyers did not think were lawful. He is carrying out. And many of those are focused on revenge against his enemies. You've talked last time when we spoke, you said how people warned you against speaking out and fighting back because they thought it might bring more attention on you and potentially more pressure, more targeting of you and your family. A lot of people don't see what that targeting looks like, the personal toll, the financial toll. And as you said before, you think people are scared to speak out because it what it would mean. What is it like when the president comes after you? Yeah, it changes your entire life. And I tell people this not so they have

sympathy for me, but so they understand what happens if the president of the United States creates this kind of blacklist and the ripple effects it can have. I mean, for us, you know, socially it's caused friends and family to, you know, go different directions than us. It's also resulted in big security threats against my wife, against my daughter. I mean, we've had people make violent threats against our family members. We've had to increase our security. We have an army of lawyers for different things, but it's also meant financially. It's been very hard for us. The business that I built effectively had to be dissolved because my business partners no longer wanted to have that association because they too were scared. Trump would come after them if we stayed in business

together. It affects every aspect of your life. And since we last spoke, things have changed dramatically. We've seen the president deploy federal military troops in an American community and threaten to send them into more communities across the country. Here's what he had to say about that yesterday. The line is that I'm a dictator, but I stop crime. So a lot of people say, you know, if that's the case, I'd rather have a dictator, but I'm not a dictator. I just know how to stop crime.

I don't love, not that I don't have the right to do anything I want to do, I'm the president of the United States. Miles, you know this president, you've worked for him. What do you take away from his comments there? Well, I'll be honest with you. It is not about crime. Donald Trump is not trying to counter crime with these military deployments. He is mounting a counterinsurgency against domestic political enemies.

That sounds dramatic, but look no further than what Stephen Miller just said the other day about one of the two major political parties in the United States. He called the Democratic Party a domestic extremist organization. That's the language that we used to use in the counterterrorism community to describe terrorist groups that we were going after. That's how we described groups as extremist organizations in Iraq when we mounted a counterinsurgency campaign. And now the president of the United States is deploying troops into what he says are Democratic cities, and his top advisor is calling the Democratic Party a domestic extremist organization.

That's really, really scary language. And we're increasingly seeing those other counterterrorism and national security tools of the federal government turned against political adversaries, and that has me worried about where this could go. Garrett Graf, who's all in the show quite frequently, had a good piece pulling back on this and how he sees this moment in American history at the deployment of the forces he wrote this. I think many Americans wrongly believe there be one clear, unambiguous moment where we go from democracy to authoritarianism. Instead, this is exactly how it happens. A blurring here, a norm destroyed there, a presidential dictat unchallenged.

You wake up one morning and our country is different. Miles, he says something is materially different in our country this week than last. Do you agree? Absolutely. And there's never going to be that perfect bright line. I actually think Garrett's piece is one of the most important things that's been written in weeks or months about the moment that we are in. It's lucid. It's a fantastic piece. People should read it. And it really shows that all along we should have taken Trump seriously and literally with what he said. He said he was going to be America's retribution. He said he was going to lock people up. He said he was going to deploy the troops. He said he was going to go after his political enemies. And all along, people in my former party, the Republican Party, people in National Security Circle said, he's joking, it's an exaggeration, his own people went to the microphones and said he's joking, he's not joking. He's moving forward with these plans. These plans are autocratic in nature, and we really need America to wake up to that, because whether you're a Democrat or a Republican,

we don't want this precedent to be set for how presidential power is used in the future. Miles Taylor. Thank you for being here again. Good to speak with you. Thank you. More than 100,000 people in Ukraine are without power today after Russia launched a massive attack on that country's energy infrastructure. Ukraine has also been targeting Russia's oil and gas facilities, spiking fuel costs, and requiring the country to ration gas. As Nick Schifrin reports, it's just the latest sign that the war continues to rage despite U.S. attempts to end it. In the far east of a country home to some of the world's largest oil reserves, lines of cars wait to buy gas.

In Russian-occupied Crimea, the pumps for high octane run empty. And online, Russian drivers post videos complaining about a gas shortage, produced in part by annual maintenance. But also by Ukrainian drone attacks on Russian refineries. Experts say the attacks have disrupted anywhere from 13 to 20 percent of Russia's refinery capacity. And on social media, Russians are not happy. I drove to the gas station to fill up gas. They tell me the gas has finished.

Now we are giving them out in exchange for tickets. Are we back in the Soviet Union? This month alone, Ukraine struck nearly a dozen refineries from the North. west to the south. Refineries near Ukraine's border have also been regularly attacked. Now drones are more numerous, heavier, carry more payload, and thus they can inflict more damage. Sergei Vakulenko is a senior fellow at the Carnegie Russia-Eurasia Center and the former head of strategy for gas prom, one of Russia's largest gas producers and exporters.

He says Ukraine's previous attacks had already disrupted airports and train stations and push Russians into their cars, especially during end of summer vacations. But now, he says Ukraine is using new drone tactics and timing their attacks to coincide with peak demand. Now it's persistent, repeated attacks aimed at knocking down refinery completely. Ukraine has become the world's leading manufacturer and producer of drones. including long-range drones that can fly more than a thousand miles. If Ukraine manages to sustain the pressure, the flow of drones at Russian refineries,

it might become increasingly serious. But it's too early to tell, really, whether Ukraine would be able to sustain the attack at the current level and load. In Ukraine, Russia's attacks on energy and gas infrastructure have been relentless. Years of Russian strikes have revealed how Ukraine's electricity and heating systems are vulnerable. And Ukraine has struggled to maintain enough air defense to protect energy facilities. Ukraine's consistently requested Western defensive systems. All of us want to finish this war, stop Russia and stop this war.

And Western pressure on Russia, as President Volodymyr Zelensky did last week, alongside his big diplomatic guns, a historic assembly of European leaders pushing for people. Everything will depend solely on the will of world leaders, primarily on the United States of America, to put pressure on Russia. New steps are needed, new pressure, sanctions, tariffs, all this must be on the table. President Trump yesterday once again threatened to punish Russia's economy, as he has before without delivery. I want to get it to stop, and it will not be a world war, but it will be an economic war.

And an economic war is going to be bad. And it's going to be bad for Russia, and I don't want that. Russia's oil industry will bounce back. But Ukrainians will keep looking for any weakness and any opportunity to force Russians to feel pain, even if it's just pain at the pump. For the PBS News Hour, I'm Nick Schifrin. Cracker Barrel is backtracking on its costly nearly $700 million rebrand after widespread backlash from customers and investors. The overhaul centered on a controversial text-only logo and a minimalist modern design was criticized as sterile and out of step with the chain's nostalgic image.

Following a steep drop in stock value and pressure from an activist investor as well as from President Trump, who called for the company to go back to the old look, Cracker Barrel reinstated its classic Uncle Herschel logo. For more on the implications of the rebrand and the backlash and the politics at play, we're joined now by Americus Reed, marketing professor at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania. It's great to have you here. It's great to be here. So this Cracker Barrel rebrand was met with near universal criticism and backlash. Was this simply a design misstep or a deeper failure to understand how people connect with that brand?

Well, the answer is actually both. One would think that just changing a picture is not that big of a deal, but it turns out that with brands, that the logo, the colors, the imagery, the graphics, over time, they take on more than just the meaning that is associated with their aesthetic. In other words, Uncle Herschel is not just a picture of an elderly man leaning against a barrel. And the barrel is not just a barrel. It is a symbol of a lifestyle. In other words, when you walk into that store, there's a feeling that you get, right? It's an old country store. There are antiques. There are rocking chairs. There's apple pie and fantastic pancakes. And so when you walk in there, the entire experience is subsumed by all of the imagery that goes into what the brand is, the meaning system that the brand stands for. And as a loyal customer who maybe has been going to Cracker Barrels for years, you have that feeling that it connects with who you are. You affiliate with it because it has social utility to you. And so when Uncle Herschel disappears, you have in your mind perhaps the idea that the values,

the beliefs, the ideologies, all of that stuff that goes along with Cracker Barrel might be disappearing too. And that's very, very psychologically troubling for some consumers because they feel then that if you are now my self-concept is infused in this idea and now you're changing so you're trying to change me and I don't want to change. And as you point out, Cracker Barrel built its entire identity around a very specific slice of Americana. Are there any legacy brands that got it right that got their rebrands right? Yeah, there are quite a few legacy brands that got it right. And by the way, logo changes are happening all the time. And the reason we don't talk about it is

because they're typically doing it right. So when you think about brand, I'll give you an example. The Notre Dame mascot just changed recently, a slight change. Again, the idea here is that you change little by little, right? And so the notion that you change in terms of making a small change,

like, for example, when Starbucks changed, did a very small kind of initial thing that sort of changed some of the graphic elements, staying under the just noticeable difference, and things like that. So when a company tries to change, and do it the right way, they're going to try to do it slowly. And so most companies understand that that symbol has a lot of power

and that they've spent a lot of time and money creating the meaning system that consumers believe that particular brand product logo, et cetera, stands for. So I've got to ask, where do you come down? Were you a fan of the original Cracker Barrel logo or the revised one? I'm a fan of the original because, as they say, you know, if it ain't woke, don't fix it. I mean, you know, you make a very interesting point here because, I mean, in some senses, this whole entire idea of the fact that there is a big group of consumers who are out there that just have nostalgia and affect and memories growing up and being in that store. So changing, suddenly bringing in brand new light fixtures and making the walls white and taking away the antique trinkets and things like that, that's very detrimental to them. Then you have political activists who said, hey, here's an opportunity to continue the story of brands that are bowing down to these progressive liberal ideas.

And so they saw an opportunity to jump in and ride that wave and join the group of people who are upset for more, let's say, nostalgic and or sentimental reasons to create an even bigger wave of folks that were upset about this situation. And by the way, it's super interesting the point that restaurant can become tied to political ideology. There's a very famous study that was done that basically showed that there are higher concentrations of cracker barrels in red state districts, and there are higher concentrations of, for example, whole foods in blue state districts. So just how you geographically cluster your company can create a kind of connection to certain values, whether they be conservative or liberal or otherwise, and you have to pay attention to that becoming part of your story because it leaves you open to this idea that if you change something, there's going to be not just a change that is a superficial change, but a psychological change that very many consumers may actually respond to and they may respond to it in a very negative way. marketing professor at the Wharton School. Great to speak with you. Thanks for joining us. I really appreciate the opportunity, Jeff. Thank you. roads, Judy Woodruff recently traveled to a place steeped in both political violence and the hope for peace, Northern Ireland, to find out what lessons Americans might learn from its

experience. In the lush green hills of Down Patrick in the southeast of Northern Ireland, a group of American tourists recently walked among the ancient ruins of Inch Abbey, where English monks once lived. A couple of miles away, they offered a prayer. A couple of miles away, they offered a prayer at the grave of St. Patrick, the Apostle of Ireland, himself of Britain. While in the capital, Belfast, they were confronted by the far more recent history of division in the period known as the Troubles, the 30-year sectarian conflict between Catholics and Protestants that cleaves society into. In those days, there was calm bottles every day of the week.

This group of American tourists were from First United Methodist Church. of Winter Park in Florida. I was seething with anger about the injustice of what had happened. And they had come to learn about this conflict from the people who lived through it. Still in my school uniform, I sworn allegiance to one of the most vicious armed groups at the time.

The harm it did. And the police know who killed my son and have done absolutely nothing about it. And efforts to build and maintain its hard won peace. I'm concerned. concerned about the polarization. It seems like we can't have even dialogue in a lot of ways anymore. First United Methodist pastor David Miller said he sees parallels back home. Our identity is becoming primary and divided. We're certainly more polarized than we've been even five years

ago. You see a connection. I do see a connection, yes. Similarities. Yeah, I think why choose to come here? Well, because there are similarities. That's why we want to look to this lens back at our own context. And I often say in your context in the United States, how do you create spaces to hear the other person's perspective? Their guide was another Methodist minister and psychologist Gary Mason. He grew up in Belfast during the Troubles and worked for decades to build peace at home before sharing those lessons with Israelis and Palestinians, Eastern Europeans, and in more recent years, Americans. He stressed that once unleashed the kind of sectarian conflict Northern Ireland lived through was very hard to stop. When I was a little boy, in the late 60s, common wisdom

of the day was, this will be over by Christmas. They were wrong. It ended up 30 years and there was the longest operation in British military history and was very, very difficult to bring to an end. The long conflict between Catholics who wanted an independent, unified Ireland, free of British rule, and Protestants who wish to remain loyal to the United Kingdom, goes back centuries. And even when the fight truly began is hotly contested. The more recent period of violence, the troubles, began in the late 1960s, when the low, simmering conflict, boiled over. Those late 60s, early 70s, we can call it ethnic cleansing, but very, very quickly, people began to move into their own safe spaces.

And by the time we reached 1972, the worst year of the conflict, with a terrorist incident every 40 minutes. The fighting would drag on for roughly 30 years, with tens of thousands of shootings, armed robberies and bombings. More than 25,000 citizens locked up and more than 3,500 killed, all in a country of about 1.6 million people. It wasn't until 1998 that the two sides, with outside help from U.S. Senator George Mitchell and the Clinton administration, brokered the political compromise known as the Good Friday Agreement. Yes, 71.12%. widely approved by the northern population in a referendum. And yet, since 1998, many more walls have been built, and behind them, the trauma of the conflict has continued to play out.

Here in Belfast, the so-called peace walls that separate Catholic neighborhoods from Protestant are physical reminders of the violence and vision that can still be felt, decades after the signing of the Good Friday Agreement that formally ended the conflict. Many of the people who live through the troubles still struggle with that history and with how to move forward together,

which may hold lessons for our own country. More than 4,000 people, Judy, since the ending of the conflict in 1998, have committed suicide because of conflict-related issues. One in five X prisoners are drinking themselves a death. So they're self-medicating with alcohol. We have the highest dosage here in this tiny little space of Northern Ireland of antidepressants in Western Europe.

I think a key for any person in American leadership is to ensure that you never descend into political violence, as we did here. The cost of that is absolutely incredible. And this is a photograph of my primary school football team. More than half of them ended up as political prisoners. As teenagers, William Mitchell and Jerry McConville joined a part opposing paramilitary groups. So I was about 10?

This was about age 10. About age 10, and five of those on the president. Eventually, each spending many years in prison. Despite once being sworn enemies, today they call each other friends and colleagues. And while they strongly disagree about the future of this place, whether it should remain part of the UK or unify with Ireland, they work together to build bridges between their respective communities. prospective communities.

If you'd ask me during my period of incarceration, tell me something you'd never do, this would be one of things I would have said at the time. But things change. I'm okay with people pursuing a different agenda than me, as long as they do it legally and democratically. You know, it's not popular sometimes within your own community. You know, people would say to you,

you're sitting down with a loyalist, or you're sitting down with the people who murdered my brother, or whatever, and likewise, I would acknowledge that on William's side, but it's about giving leadership. It's about saying this is the way to do it. This is the way forward. We need to listen and understand the other person's point of view.

Reluctantly, I rise, routine tasks, now, dull, dreary, drudgery, you are not here. Linda Malloy is Catholic and she shared a poem she wrote with the American group about her son John, who in 1996 was murdered at the age of 18 as he was walking home late one night. Welcome the night in my heaven. Close my eyes. Look for your face. You are not here. His killers were never apprehended. On the shankle road, a street synonymous with loyalty to Britain,

Alan McBride's wife and father-in-law were killed in a bombing in 1993, when Catholic paramilitaries attacked their fish shop in an attempt to kill opposition forces who regularly met upstairs. The bombers came in, left the bomb in the counter and killed nine innocent people, including my father-in-law, my wife, and seven other people who just happened to be shopping. Despite their deep wounds in different backgrounds, Malloy and McBride have become close friends, working for many years together at a trauma center called. wave to help people on both sides deal with the past. But you've no idea really of knowing just the, you know, the people you touch and the people that they in turn will touch. And I think whilst Linda, a nice story is one of sadness and hardship and hurt, the fact that we can be together, we can laugh, we can joke, we

can, you know, present an image of Northern Ireland that is, look, hear somebody from two opposite sides of the community, but we're absolutely at one with what we're. want for the future. It's just like throwing a stone into the ocean and causing the ripples, you know. But the other part of it is remembering our loved ones as well. I do these talks and things like that so that John is not forgotten. The morning is crisp and dry, trudged through autumn leaves, feel the crunch, register reds, gold and greens, and suddenly you are all around me.

of the Florida congregation were deeply moved by what they heard. I have young children and hearing the story of her losing her son, it's hard not to put yourself there and to think what that might be like and for something like politics. For his part, Gary Mason worries about the normalization of political violence he sees today in the United States. The fire set to Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro's residence, the murder of a lawmaker in Minnesota, the assassination attempts on President Trump's life last year, the mass shootings in schools and churches and public spaces that have become routine. And overall, the language of dehumanization he hears from our leaders.

I was saying to both Republicans and Democrats, politics is about the healthy art of this agreement. I mean, we know that. But it's also important to understand why did that person make those choices? And why did they do that? A theologian of another generation, one said, dehumanization precedes genocide. And the last thing a great country like the United States wants to do is to continue to demonize the other person. Let's have a robust political debate. But remember where demonization leads to. So be careful. We'll be mad In a coming story, we'll profile what the U.S. might learn from the work being done in Northern Ireland today to maintain the peace and to build a more integrated future. Northern Ireland is now doing something I think uniquely special in this world, but they had to come through hell in order to get there. Hopefully we're wise enough to learn from that example and not have to go there in the first place. For the PBS News Hour, on Judy Woodruff in Belfast, Northern Ireland. And that's the News Hour for tonight. And I'm Jeff Bennett.

And I'm Omna Nawaz. On behalf of the entire News Hour team, thank you for joining us.