PBS News Hour - Full Show - November 24, 2025 – PBS News Hour full episode

Episode Date: November 25, 2025

Monday on the News hour, a judge throws out the DOJ cases against former FBI Director James Comey and New York Attorney General Letitia James. Ukraine and European leaders work to revise a peace plan to end the war with Russia as the origins of the plan come under question. Plus, a look at immigration agents arresting migrants at their mandatory court check-ins. PBS News is supported by - https://www.pbs.org/newshour/about/funders. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy

Good evening. I'm Amnavaz. And I'm Jeff Bennett. On the news hour tonight, a judge throws out the DOJ cases against former FBI director James Comey and New York Attorney General Letitia James. Ukrainian and European leaders work to revise a 28-point peace plan to end the war with Russia, even as the origins of the plan come under question. And an in-depth look at an immigration enforcement tactic, arresting migrants at the war. their mandatory court check-ins. They didn't have a criminal record. They were making an asylum claim and going through all the stages that are required and were completely blindsided by what happened to them.

Welcome to the News Hour. A federal judge has dismissed the indictments against former FBI director James Comey and New York State Attorney General, Letitia James. In twin rulings today, Judge Cameron McGowan Curry found the appointment of Lindsay Halligan as interim U.S. attorney was invalid and unlawful. Halligan had been handpicked by President Donald Trump to bring criminal charges against his political foes when a predecessor refused. She was then swiftly appointed as interim U.S. attorney by Attorney General Pam Bondi. Comey reacted to the news today. I'm grateful that the court ended the case against me, which was a prosecution based on malevolence and incompetence

and a reflection of what the Department of Justice has become under Donald Trump, which is heartbreaking. But I was also inspired by the example of the career people who refused to be part of this travesty. It costs some of them their jobs, which is painful, but to preserve their integrity, which is beyond price. And I know they will serve again. Our White House correspondent, Liz Landers, asked press secretary Caroline Levitt about this today. Here was her response. I know there was a judge who is clearly trying to shield Letitia James and James Comey from receiving accountability. And that's why they took this unprecedented action to throw away the indictments against these two individuals.

But the Department of Justice will be appealing very soon. And it is our position that Lindsay Halligan is extremely qualified for this position, but more importantly, was legally. appointed to it. NPR's National Justice correspondent, Carrie Johnson's covering the latest and joins me now. So, Carrie, let's start with Jim Comey's case. He was charged with lying to Congress obstructing a congressional proceeding.

The judge and his dismissal wrote today, all actions flowing from Ms. Halligan's defective appointment, including securing and signing Mr. Comey's indictment, were unlawful exercises of executive power and are hereby set aside. So, Carrie, to be clear, this wasn't about the charges themselves.

This was about Halligan's appointment. That's right. This was about the way in which the Trump administration went about installing Lindsay Halligan, who has no prosecutorial experience into this job. The Constitution and federal law gives presidents a lot of power to pick U.S. attorneys and gives the Senate the power to advise the president and eventually confirm. But in cases where that isn't possible, the president can install temporary people for 120 days. Those appointments, after that time, and there are a complex thicket of rules and laws about how to proceed thereafter. In essence, Judge Curry in this decision, said the Trump administration did this

the wrong way. And as a result, the things that Lindsay Halligan did in the job, things like indicting Jim Comey, have to go away, at least temporarily. And what about when it comes to the charges against Letitia James? We know Halligan also secured a federal grand jury indictment on mortgage fraud charges there, and Letitia James actually posted a response today online saying, I remain fearless in the face of these baseless charges as I continue fighting for New Yorkers every single day. What else should we understand about that case? Yes, the Tish James case was also thrown out by the judge today using the same reasoning that Lindsay Halligan's appointment was defective. And that being said, there's a twist with the James case that doesn't apply to

the Comey case. And that's that the statute of limitations as to James Comey and his testimony to Congress in 2020 was really about to expire right around the time he was indicted. So now there's an open question as to whether Halligan will be able to, or the Justice Department, will be able to re-indict him in a valid way. With James, the statute of limitations has not yet expired. So there is a path for the Justice Department a little more easily, at least, to try to renew charges against her. Her attorney said today, they're going to fight those charges if they come again. And, Carrie, just for context to remind people here, we know the Comey indictment came down about five days after President Trump had posted online that Comey, James, and California Democratic Senator

Adam Schiff were all, quote, guilty as hell. James was then indicted a few weeks later. Remind us why President Trump has been pushing so hard for these indictments. Well, all three of these people, and Adam Schiff has not yet been charged with any crime. He denies any kind of wrongdoing. But Comey and James had both pleaded not guilty before their indictments were thrown out today. And they were both targeted, at least in part, they say, because they had investigated Donald Trump in the past. Comey, his former FBI director, Trump blames for the Russia investigation. And Tish James had proceeded with a civil fraud suit against Donald Trump and his company. Winning a judgment against them, the monetary penalty has been thrown

out, but that case stands, Trump is still appealing it. 30 seconds are so left here, Carrie. What do we expect to happen next? Yeah, it's quite possible. Lindsay Halligan has, according to the Attorney General, been appointed to a new job in the Justice Department, something called special attorney. And she may try to go ahead and get new grand juries to bring new criminal charges against Tish James and possibly Jim Comey moving forward.

Important to note, Omna, that both of these people say they were the victim of vindictive or selective prosecution, and so they have other bases to try to get those possible new charges thrown out down the road, too. All right, that's NPR's. Carrie Johnson joining us tonight with the very latest. Carrie, thank you. Thank you. Today, U.S. and Ukrainian officials worked to bridge gaps in a U.S. document designed to end the near four-year war. Both sides say the U.S. has agreed to edit what was a 28-point proposal that sparked bipartisan and international concern, concern that the U.S. was imposing demands sought by Russia and impossible for Ukraine to accept. Nick Schifrin has been reporting every development through the weekend and is back

with us this evening. So, Nick, how much progress has been made today on this proposal? European officials tell me, Jeff, that the proposal is now down to 19 points instead of 20. 28 points, and there has been progress between the U.S. and Ukraine, as you said, in narrowing the gaps. The U.S. says there are two major sticking points. Remember, the original document required Ukraine to cap the size of its military, give up its NATO ambitions, and surrender territory in the Donetsk that it still holds despite 10 years of Russia trying to capture it. But in meetings today, as well as yesterday in Geneva, led by Secretary of State, Marco Rubio and the Ukrainian presidential chief of staff, Andrea Mock, the U.S. heard out the Ukrainian side. And today, Caroline Levitt, the White House

spokesperson, said the U.S. was optimistic. The vast majority of these points have been agreed upon. The Ukrainians have worked on language with us together. And you heard that from their delegation directly yesterday. So we feel as though we're in a very good place. Of course, we have to make sure that all of these points are agreed to. And then, of course, we're going to have to make sure the other party in this war, the Russians, agree to them as well. specifically said there were two major points of disagreements. We don't know what they are, Jeff, but European officials tell me that the single most difficult, perhaps, point of disagreement, that is Ukraine giving up that territory, it's been decided that only Trump

and Zelensky personally will have to decide that issue. Here's Zelensky tonight. There are fewer points, no longer 28, and many of the right elements have been taken into account in this framework. There is still work for all of us to do together. It is very challenging to finalize the document, and we must do everything with dignity. We appreciate that most of the world is ready to help us, and that the American side is approaching this constructively. Constructively also means, Jeff, that the Thanksgiving deadline that President Trump said will probably come and go. Caroline Levitt said today that the deadline was just, quote, as soon as possible. And we also know that some of the other larger issues that have to do with NATO

and Ukraine, language about whether Ukraine can ever join NATO, language about how Europe will treat frozen assets. Those will be treated separately in negotiations within the U.S. and Western Europe. Well, Nick, it sounds like we're in a very different place than late last week or even this past weekend when you attended the Halifax International Security Forum. When members of the congressional delegation, based on your reporting, you were first to report this, they were changing the narrative around this document fairly dramatically. We certainly are in different place. Not only the text is very different, as we've discussed, but this weekend, at Halifax, a congressional bipartisan group led by New Hampshire Democrat,

Jean Shaheen, as well as South Dakota Republican, Mike Rounds, Maine independent Angus King, announced that Rubio had told them that this 28-point document wasn't American, but was, in fact, Russian. Take a listen first to Rounds and then King. What I can share with you is what we've received today from the secretary, and what he told us was that this was not the, the American proposal. This was a proposal which was received by someone who has identified

and they believe to be representing Russia. The leaked 28-point plan, which according to Secretary Rubio is not the administration's position, it is essentially the wish list of the Russians. Rubio's spokesperson went on to call that, quote, a blatant lie. After that, both senators release statements, not disavowing what they said, but not repeating it either. Look, the bottom line is Rubio insists the 28 plan was American and, frankly, we're beyond that at this point, Jeff. This new 19-point plan is very different. And of course, all of this is a negotiation with Ukraine way before we get to Moscow. And, of course, any document that's more acceptable to Ukraine becomes more difficult for Moscow to accept.

Nick Schiffran, terrific reporting as always. We appreciate it. Thank you. Turning to the day's other headlines, the Pentagon says it's investigating Arizona Senator Mark Kelly over a video in which he and a number of other U.S. lawmakers urged U.S. troops to refuse to follow illegal orders. Defense officials say Kelly's comments may have interfered with the loyalty, morale, or good order, and discipline of the armed forces. Kelly retired at the rank of captain. He would have to be recalled to active duty by the defense secretary to face any disciplinary action. In a statement, Kelly said, I've given too much to this country to be silenced by bullies who care more about their own power than protecting the Constitution.

The Trump administration formerly designated Venezuela's Cartel de Los Soles as a foreign terror organization today. The move is part of a sweeping new pressure campaign against President Nicolas Maduro's government. as President Trump openly weighs whether the U.S. should take military action against Venezuela. Secretary of State Marco Rubio has accused the group of being responsible for terrorist violence. But the Maduro government denies the cartel even exists. And regional experts say it's less a single organization than a nickname. They describe it as an umbrella term for high-ranking Venezuelan military and political figures accused of profiting from the international narcotics trade.

Turning now to the Middle East, the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation says it's permanently ending its operations in the territory. In a statement, the U.S. and Israeli-backed group claims it was the only aid operation that reliably and safely provided free meals in Gaza. But its operations were shrouded in secrecy, and its sites were marred by violence. Hundreds of Palestinians were reportedly killed by Israeli troops as they sought aid through, though Israel maintains it only fired warning shots to control the crowds. It comes as hospital officials in Gaza say at least 24 people were killed and Israeli strikes this past weekend. Israel says it was responding to gunfire on its troops. Authorities in Gaza told the news hour that the strike targeted displaced Palestinians.

It is important to note that this all happens during a period that should have been a ceasefire, but this violation was very clear today. Some of those targeted were intense. Now their bodies are completely charred. Meantime, in Lebanon, thousands attended the funeral today for Hezbollah's top military commander who was killed in an Israeli strike this weekend in Beirut. Israel has been stepping up its attacks on Lebanon in recent weeks as it tries to push the country to move faster in disarming the militant group. The EPA is starting to allow the use of pesticides containing PFS on food. It's part of an effort to roll back the regulation of what are called forever chemicals because they don't break down easily in the environment.

Last week, the agency approved the use of two new pesticides that qualify as PFAS. It means that farmers could spread them on crops like romaine lettuce, broccoli, and potatoes. The Washington Post is reporting that agency plans to approve four more pesticides. Not much is known about their long-term impact, but PFAS have been linked to certain cancers, birth defects, and other health problems. In a statement to the news hour today, the EPA said it will provide transparent science-based information on how the chemicals are evaluated. On Wall Street today, stocks enjoyed solid gains to start the Thanksgiving holiday week.

The Dow Jones Industrial Average added more than 200 points. The NASDAQ jumped nearly 600 points. The SMP 500 posted one of its best days since the summer. And a beloved star of Indian cinema, actor Darmendra, has died. He rose to face. in the 1970s with hits like Sholey. Bollywood's take on a spaghetti western. At the time, the film was the highest grossing Bollywood movie ever. Darmendra was known as part action hero, part romantic lead. In a career spanning over six decades, he appeared in over 300 movies

and is widely considered one of the greatest Indian actors of all time. Darmendra had been in and out of the hospital in recent weeks. He was 89 years old. And Viola Fletcher, the oldest living survivor of the 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre has died. Fletcher was just seven years old when a white mob destroyed the Greenwood District of Tulsa, once known as Black Wall Street, killing hundreds, burning businesses, schools, and churches, and leaving as many as 10,000 people homeless. Fletcher carried those memories for more than a century. In her later years, she became a national witness to history, speaking with students and journalists and testifying before Congress.

I will never forget the violence of the white mob when we left our home. I still see black men seeing being shot. I hear the screams. I have lived through the massacre every day. Our country may forget this history, but I cannot. Fletcher was one of two survivors who sued the state of Oklahoma seeking damages from the city. Last year, the state's Supreme Court rejected their case, stealing a serious setback to a decades-long fight for reparations.

Fletcher's grandson, and confirming her passing, said, she had a beautiful smile on her face. She loved life, she loved people. Viola Fletcher was 111 years old. Still to come on the news hour, we remember Jimmy Cliff, the reggae singer who brought the music genre to audiences worldwide. Tamara Keith and Amy Walter break down the latest political headlines,

how life is changing for trans Americans under the Trump administration. And a documentary explores the $3 billion industry that's been created to protect against school shootings. This is the PBS News Hour from the David M. Rubenstein studio at WETA in Washington and in the west from the Walter Cronkite School of Journalism at Arizona State University. A sweeping new investigation by the Associated Press is raising serious questions about what's happened. inside America's immigration courts. White House correspondent Liz Landers has more on how the administration has circumvented the asylum process. Every day all across the country, asylum cases are being tossed out, and asylum seekers exit the courtroom into the waiting arms and cuffs of immigration officers. That, according to a new report from the Associated Press,

headlined migrants thought they were in a court for a routine hearing. Instead, it was a deportation trap. One of its authors, Josh Goodman, joins us now. Josh, thank you for joining the news hour. Thank you. In reporting this story, you and your colleagues went to 21 immigration courts. Can you describe the scene as you watch migrants walk into court and then walk out into a legal snare? Yeah, we witnessed multiple arrests over several months. This was a routine practice by which government attorneys would go before a judge, dismiss a case, which would typically be a good outcome for someone trying to stay in the United States. And as soon as they would leave the courtroom, they would be arrested by ICE agents or federal agents frequently with masks.

Nationwide, it's estimated that there were over 2,000 arrests in this manner. Some of the courts were quite chaotic, arresting people in hallways, people were being trapped in elevators, journalists were being rough-handled. Scenes of fathers, being torn from their children. Women begging federal agents to let their husbands go. These are people who wanted to follow the rules. They didn't have a criminal record. They were making an asylum claim and going through all the stages that are required and were completely blindsided by what happened to them. What has changed in these immigration courts under this new Trump administration? So these immigration courts were kind of structurally flawed from the

very beginning. They are not part of the independent judiciary in the way that, you know, tax court or federal court or, you know, any multiple courts around the United States are. They are part of the executive branch. They actually are part of the Justice Department. They had a degree of professionalism over time that was built up, and these judges were allowed to really rule like any other court. But they were always very vulnerable to some sort of takeover. What we've seen now under the second Trump administration, they are effectively exploiting those vulnerabilities, issuing new orders about what judges can and cannot rule on. And they're really narrowing the scope that these judges have to decide the cases.

How do the attorneys and judges within the immigration court system feel about the role that they're playing under this new Trump administration tactic? What I found is that overall, these are people who are very patriotic. They signed up to work in the immigration system because they wanted to protect America's borders, root out the true people who need asylum from some of the people who are claiming it for non-legal reasons or economic refugees, for example. And they did not sign up for this at all. One of the judges I talked to said this is really like deciding death penalty cases in a traffic court environment. because they have so few tools to actually meet out justice that, and they have such a huge

docket, that they are rushing through these cases without giving them the due consideration that they need. And I noticed in some of the text messages between the federal agents and the attorneys a great deal of empathy and people kind of saying to themselves, you know, this is, this is, this is, this is cruel and we don't really want to be a part of this. I was struck by that in your reporting that these attorneys who are arguing in front of these judges are in direct contact, it seems, with the ICE agents who are waiting outside. This process starts about two weeks in advance. Every attorney is assigned a number of people like maybe 40 cases that day. You know, they have to come up with a list for the client.

The client here is ICE of people who they would quote and quote call amenable to detention. And then on the day of the hearings, the attorney and the ICE officer in the hallway are coordinating almost in real time so that they can identify what the individual looks like, what kind of shirt, black shirt, a white shirt, whatever they're wearing, as well as if indeed

the judge dismissed the case, because that was the hook. If the judge didn't dismiss the case, they couldn't arrest these individuals. If they're trying to reach a quota every day, It's a lot easier to pick up people at court. One of the stated reasons that the Trump administration has adopted this new policy is to work through the asylum system's years-long backlog. Is it affecting the backlog and is it affecting other systems?

That's a great question. The backlog is a huge challenge. It has been for many, many years. It keeps growing. The numbers themselves are not 100% clear. The government has said that they've managed to reduce backlog from about 4.2 million to 3.8 million cases, which is still mind-boggling for only 600 judges nationwide. But they're also benefiting from the fact that the border itself is sealed.

In other words, there's not a lot of new people coming in and clogging up the system. But, you know, every time that there are arrests in the streets, and at times there are major roundups, those people also get, you know, sort of thrown back into the system, and they can actually increase the numbers. So it's not entirely clear. But I think at a very minimum, what we can say is that the backlog is, you know, not growing as fast as it once was. So you find in this reporting that a number of these judges, these immigration court judges have been laid off. You guys profile in your story, a judge in Ohio who had been fired. Why are immigration judges getting fired right now if there is such a backlog to process these cases?

Yeah. I mean, this is a great conundrum. There's about 90 judges that have been. fired since February, and the government, the Trump administration very clearly says that they are not targeting anyone from a viewpoint perspective, but the data speaks for itself. These judges were more favorable to migrants than the national average. Josh Goodman, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. A former key Trump ally plans her departure from Congress.

Doge quietly dissolves and Washington grapples with rising health care costs yet again. To discuss that and more, we turn now to our Politics Monday duo. That is Amy Walter of the Cook Political Report with Amy Walter and Tamara Keith of NPR. It's always great to see you both. So President Trump today was expected to unveil his plan to deal with spiking Obamacare premiums, but that announcement, our White House and congressional teams are told, was delayed after congressional Republicans pushed back against the president's apparent sudden embrace of these expiring subsidies. Amy, what does this delay tell us about the internal dynamics

of the Republican Party, especially between the White House and Republican congressional leadership? Right. So the issue of health care is something that Republicans in Congress have long grappled with and not really found an answer to. I went back because I remembered after John Boehner, the former speaker was out of office for a little while, in 2017, when the first version, of repeal and replace, the ACA came up. He was quoted at a conference saying, I've been in Congress for 25 years. I've never seen one time when Congress agreed what a health care proposal should look like. In other words, even before the replace and repeal failed in 2018, he was predicting it wasn't going to work because Republicans have such a tough time on this

issue. So that's number one. The second is that where the divide really is between a president who believes that this is a political liability coming up in the midterms. He sees where the polls are. He sees how much support there is for extending these ACA subsidies and his Republicans in Congress who ideologically are deeply opposed

to everything that the ACA stands for and many of whom voted to repeal it not that long ago when the president was in his first term. More than 60 times. Oh, yeah, the 60 times. and then they finally got the vote to actually repeal it in 2017 or 2018. Yeah. So, Tam, I mean, how does this episode really highlight the tension to Amy's point between ideological purity, no Obamacare subsidies, and pragmatism?

You have to do something about these premiums spiking. Right. So what has happened is President Trump has changed the Republican Party, or at least he's changed the Republican electorate. I was just talking to a political scientist about this today. He has expanded the party. He's expanded the tent. He's brought in a lot of voters who are more working class, who would be more sensitive to these spikes in health care costs.

And he has his finger on the pulse of his base, which is not the same as the traditional Republican Party or the same as the Tea Party, which wants to make the government smaller. And so when you have a big tent, and President Trump's presidency has sort of helped paper over this. When you have a big tent, there are divisions. And what you're seeing right now is with such a narrow Republican majority in the House and the Senate, those tensions between the

libertarian wing and the populist wing or whatever you want to call it, those tensions make it really hard to get something done. And now you have Marjorie Taylor Green leaving, which is one fewer vote for Republicans in the House. Well, what does it say, Amy, that Republicans have had a decade to come up with some sort of free market solution for health care coverage, and yet they haven't been able to settle on one. Well, the one person who was the most successful Republican who was successful in passing, real health care reform was Mitt Romney as governor of Massachusetts, which was the platform on which...

For Obamacare. Exactly. And because of that, I think there is the feeling that, well, then we can't use that platform because it was something that Democrats used. used. But just sort of building on Tam's point, too, about the tension within the party, there are 13 Republicans that have stated publicly, we would like to see these ACA extensions go forward. They all sit in vulnerable districts, districts that are up in 26, that either Trump narrowly carried or Kamala Harris carried. But most of the people in Congress don't sit in those kinds of districts. But these are the people who will determine who's in the House

majority. You mentioned Marjorie Taylor Green. She announced on Friday her resignation from Congress effective January 5th. And that announcement came just one week after she criticized President Trump, or rather President Trump withdrew his support for her after she criticized him. But what does her sudden decision to resign tell us about the fault lines within the MAGA-era Republican Party? Well, first it tells us that being a member of Congress just isn't that great. And you're, and you've seen a lot of members of Congress complain about, you know, complain about any number of things experiencing threats to their families and just the general unpleasantness. You know, there are some ways to see this as a victory for President Trump. She criticized him. She wasn't just,

it wasn't just the Epstein files. It was on the economy. It was on Venezuela. It was on other foreign entanglements. She was becoming a critic from inside the party, and that was a problem for him. And rather than sticking it out and fighting, she said, all right, peace, I'm out. And so in some ways, that's a win for President Trump. In other ways, it's a sign that these fissures exist, and people are already thinking about what the party looks like when he's no longer the leader who sort of blocks the sun and prevents others in the party from defining what the Republican Party really is going forward. Could her resignation trigger a ripple effect where you have other far-right members, MAGA-aligned folks,

a break away from President Trump? So I think she was a unique figure in that, look, she came into Congress and instantly went for the shiny object and being in the spotlight. And you could make the other case that she just got too close to that spotlight and it singed her and now it's over.

But you can also say that, going back to Tam's point about what the Trump coalition looks like now, If you look both at polling and at election results that have happened, the elections that have happened since 2025, what you see is a MAGA base, the core Trump base, they still like him a lot. They're going to stick with him. It's that periphery coalition, the younger voters, the Latino voters, the independents. When you see his numbers among those voters, those were people who, they weren't ever assigning themselves the MAGA label. They voted for Donald Trump because they thought, he was going to do certain things, especially on the economy, and now they don't see those things happening. And so he's losing favor with them. That is the bigger threat to the Trump agenda going forward, meaning what will the Trump coalition look like in 2028? Those are the voters who determine that. Well, I mentioned the dissolution of Doge in the intro, and lucky for us,

we still have time to talk about it. So, Tam, so Doze, the Department of Government Efficiency, is dissolving ahead of schedule. This organization, agency, however you want to describe it, they claim to have cut tens of billions of dollars in spending. They provided no verifiable accounting. How wide is the accountability gap here? Yeah, they never provided the receipts for all of these cuts that they claim to make. Many of the cuts that they claimed to make weren't real.

Others were extremely inefficient, which led to actually more spending, not less. And the reality is that Doge has basically been dead since the summer. since President Trump's falling out with Elon Musk. They've sort of repaired that relationship now. But Doge was more an idea than it ever was a practical reality. What's it say about the feasibility of rapid-fire bureaucratic overhaul in a federal government that's built on bureaucracy?

Yeah. I think the one thing it was successful in doing, though, Jeff, is that it has fundamentally altered the way that agencies work and may be working far, far, beyond just the four years of Trump's term. Well, we covered a ton of ground on this Monday. Amy Walter, Tamara Keith. Thanks, as always. You're welcome.

Since President Trump re-interned Trump re-entered the White House, his administration has moved to restrict rights for transgender people, from transition-related medical care for youth to sports participation, to identity markers on passports. William Brangham has an update on these actions, the legal challenges to them, and what may come next. LGBTQ-plus advocates say that many of President Trump's policies present a critical threat to the roughly 1% of Americans,

that is, some 2.8 million people who identify as transgender. So for a closer look at some of these moves, we are joined by Alejandra Carabayo. She's a transgender activist and civil rights attorney who teaches at Harvard Law School's Cyber Law Clinic. Welcome to the NewsHour. Thank you for having me. After Trump won the election, you told the Harvard Crimson

that these next four years would be really just a matter of survival. How has that survival been going? It's been incredibly difficult. The Trump administration has taken a whole-of-government approach to target the trans community and everything from how we're able to identify ourselves on identity documents to how we obtain our health care, to even where we go to the bathroom and even the ability to serve in the military.

And so for the entirety of the trans community, it really has become a matter of survival, and that survival has been incredibly difficult. When you're talking to people in the community and people who are supporters and allies, do they share that same sense of dread as to what's going on? Absolutely. I think a lot of allies are incredibly concerned

with what's happening, but I think at the same time, it's difficult because there is so much happening. We're kind of only one small part of everything that is happening between the assaults on our institutions, the attacks on immigrants, the open corruption in the government. It makes it really hard to be able to focus what is happening to the trans community when so much is happening all at the same time. Back during the election, political analysts point to that notorious set of ads that the president ran against Kamala Harris. She's for they, them, he's for you. As both

being divisive and effective as an ad campaign. And as you know, there are polls that show that somewhere around half of Americans approve of what the president is doing vis-a-vis trans people. How do you explain that? How does that sit with you? I think it's incredibly troubling, especially with the kinds of moves that it has made for the trans community to even live our lives, to even access health care, to even access housing, or to even work without discrimination.

But I think the Trump administration really, you know, I think they're overplaying their hand and I think a lot of the Republican Party overlearned the lesson from 2024 where their economic populism was able to win over swing voters and they attributed it to anti-trans politics because it failed in Virginia and it failed in New Jersey. Winsome Earl Sears spent over 50% of her ads, spending according to notice, on anti-trans ads. And she lost by, I think, almost. governor's race. Yeah, by over 15 percentage points.

And those were some extremely heinous anti-trans ads. And it just failed to materialize as any sort of impact on electoral politics. Because at the end of the day, people want to hear about things that actually affect their day-to-day lives. And trans people just doesn't register for them. For better or for worse, when it comes to our issues in terms of like our access to health care and all those other things, it makes it very hard for us to get those policies. But at the same time, on the negative side, it doesn't have much saliency with the electorate.

The Supreme Court, as you know, is about to take up a case next year about the participation of transgender athletes in sports. Again, over half of Americans believe that transgender athletes should not be playing in sports. What do you think is at stake in that particular case? Yeah, I mean, there's on its face what's at stake in the case, which is a middle school girl just wanting to play sports with. her friends and let's not lose sight of that. And, you know, there had always been these common sense compromises that you had to be on hormones for a year or two years. You can't just show up and just say, I'm a girl and play on the sports teams. That's not how it worked. There had been these compromises within the sports teams, within local school districts to figure out how to make

this work. And this instead is saying that the government's coming in and dictating who can and can't plays sports. But it goes beyond that because Title IX, which is at stake here and as well as the Equal Protection Clause, really defines what counts as discrimination writ large in all the institutions of learning from local kindergartens to universities. And so that could determine potentially how discrimination on the basis of sex impacts trans people across the country. we could see, you know, depending on how this decision comes down and how it comes out at oral argument and how it's written, basically an endorsement

of bathroom bans by the Supreme Court, facilities bans, a lack of any sort of protections within discrimination law for trans people in the context of education. I want to ask you one thing. You have faced your own share of criticism for some of the things you have written on social media where do you see the boundaries in terms of how to have this debate, especially as it pertains to people who are near and dearer to you?

I think about this a lot in terms of like the incentives of social media and how, you know, it can incentivize a certain style of engagement. But I think in general, one of the things I've always tried to say and repeat the quote is, you know, be brutal to systems, kind to people. And I think that's one of the things that tries to guide me, like, you know, we need to hold people to account and hold systems to account, but try to be kinder to people. And I've certainly, um, have tried to grow myself in this respect. And I know I have not always been perfect. But, um, I think, you know, that that's just a unfortunate

side effect of social media. All right. That is Alejandra Carabayo from Harvard Law School. Thank you so much for being here. Thanks for having me. A new documentary looks at how gun violence has led to school lockdown drills becoming a universal part of childhood in America. That sparked the creation and explosive growth of an entire industry of active shooter preparedness products now worth an estimated $3 billion. Lockdown one is by far our most popular. on any door. Sirens and strokes throughout the organization are now initiated. It can move.

It has handles and you literally could move with the table if so desired. Right after Sandy Hook happened, teachers and schools started calling us. When Sandy Hook happened and we realized that the children were at risk, we said we've got this great technology. And now we're in 4,000 schools across the country. The documentary called Thoughts and Prayers is available to stream now on HBO Max. I recently spoke with the filmmaking team behind it, Zachary Kahnapari and Jessica Dimock. Zach and Jessica, welcome to The News Hour. Thanks for joining us.

Thank you. Thanks for having us. I wanted to get into the story behind the film more in just a moment, but Zach, kick us off here and just tell us a little bit more about some of those pitches we just heard, some of the products we just heard about, the fact that this is a whole industry. most people don't even know about that's cropped up in recent years. What more should we understand about that? Yeah, the film documents sort of the various different training programs

and products and cultural effects of all these things across America due to gun violence. And the products, you know, the scene that you guys just watched was from the National School Safety Conference, which is very typical sort of American conference. conference where they go to the hotel, they've got the lazy river, they've got the pool party, and then they have vendors. And those vendors are pitching products to schools and other businesses looking for ways to help prevent or stop or slow mass shootings.

Prevent is probably not the right word because it's more like slowing mass shootings down. But those products are all on the marketplace trying to find homes and schools across America. I mean, in the world of products that you saw, did anything surprise you that this thing exists? I think what was most surprising was like the calm and collected manner with which people would kind of assume that any of this would work. There's one thing that's a shield that kind of opens up and theoretically could stop an AR-15 bullet. And theoretically, the demonstrators talking about how a kid, age 10, could run his fellow classmates out to safety. And, like, when you really play that out in your mind, you're like, wait, wait, okay, so AR-15 bullets are flying at this shield

and this kid is supposed to be just ramming through them. Like, when you really stop and think about the scenarios and what it would actually take for any of this stuff to really be effective, I think that's what's so surprising. Well, Jessica, I mean, the industry is there because, as you report in the film, 95% of American schools now run lockdown drills. There have been some 236 school shootings in the last seven years

where at least one person was killed or injured that's according to Education Week. Take us behind the film for a moment and tell us about what made you want to make this film in the first place. Yeah, so Zach and I have a child. And like many American parents, when she was approaching school age, we started to think about the inevitability of drills and started to think about what it would actually be like to look at these.

And we went down the wormhole that I think a lot of parents do, which is like, what's the plan, how are you going to stay safe? And then once we started digging into that, we realized that there was this whole kind of world of safety and preparedness, which, you know, in some ways we are looking at with some cynicism, but ultimately the industry is not necessarily the problem. The industry exists because there's a lack of meaningful gun reform and people are trying to solve a problem.

You know, we have some doubts that this is the actual way to solve this problem, but we understand in some ways why the industry exists. I mean, I will share, I remember when my oldest was just four years old and she came home to talk about her first drill in pre-K, when they told her this is what happens if an animal gets into the school, you have to hide and be quiet, and it just broke my heart. But most parents don't get to see the drills that these kids are going through across the country.

Zach, you witness these. You saw a lot of them firsthand. Take us inside. What is that like for the kids? I think it's very, it's, you know, it's unique because it simultaneously is the darkest thing that we can imagine and also pretty mundane. You know, the kids are, especially as they get older, you know, they've been doing them for years. For the young kids, it's got this like spooky quality, but the kids don't totally even really understand what it is that they're practicing for. with the older kids they've been doing this twice a year for their entire school career

and they've gotten to the point like you know in high school at this point i think a lot of schools recommend that the kids actually pick up something to like use as a improvised weapon it's really just to stand there and hold it but the idea um that this is even in the psyche of these kids over years and years i think is like really what we're pointing at you know these individual drills They don't always look like much. They're pretty short. But I think the collective experience over many, many years, and even just, again, just talking about it

and thinking about it, hearing about other shootings, I think that's what's the most damaging. But, yeah, the drills are just now part of our ritual, American ritual. I mean, some of the most powerful moments in the documentary are when we hear from these kids directly. I want to play for folks just one of the interviews you did with a student named Julie, Take a listen.

I really want to be a teacher, elementary school teacher. I really like little kids, and I like working with them. I like letting them express themselves and teaching them to help them succeed in life. But again, that will be frustrating because of school shootings. I have to do a bunch of trainings for them, get ready. And especially if I'm a teacher and one of the kids get hurt, I will be very guilty, even if it's not my fault. It would just be like, I could have done this. to protect them, and I would be really, I feel guilty.

Jessica, tell us about what else you heard from the other kids when they would talk about these drills and also just the possibility of something happening in their schools. Yeah, well, the couple of things that the kids are so clear on, which was really eye-opening for us as, you know, people that didn't grow up doing this. One, they're worried about it all the time. They're in rooms and they're always kind of thinking about where the exit is. Could I jump out of that window? Is this building high enough?

For me to survive something like that, can I run out the door? So that kind of like constant mental noise is something that is pretty universal and they talk about it a lot. We also talk about close calls, you know, while shootings at schools themselves are rather rare, they absolutely, as all Americans know, they do happen. And the amount of kind of close calls that these kids are around, someone had a kill list, someone made a threat on social media, a janitor, a school had a plan, like this kind of, you know, proximity to the violence was. also really striking. And I'd say the third thing that really blew us away is that the kids are clear about why this goes on. They're very clear about that this is a problem about guns and that this is a uniquely American phenomenon. Zach, what about the impact on teachers? What did you hear from them? I think for the teachers, you know, teachers are on the front lines of so many

American culture wars. You know, it was masks and book bans and obviously this as well. And so What I found so striking was the teacher in our film saying that there's been a huge drop-off with teachers. And the ones that are in this program, the program in the film is in Utah where they train teachers, you know, beyond just active shooter preparedness. They train them to use guns. And the ones that are in this program for her were the ones that were left, being that like, this is like what we're willing to do to protect our kids and continue to educate kids. I mean, what a crazy, all they're trying to do is educate, be teachers, and they're just not totally, you know, there's no way that they're prepared for this kind of ask is just above and beyond. Jessica, and all the conversations with students and teachers and others, is there consensus on what they want to see change, on what they want public officials or leaders to do or to act to stop this from happening? Or is there a resignation that this is just part of their normal life now?

And I think that there's a resignation that has deeply set in, which is partially, you know, it has to do with why we made this film and the way that we approach it. I think when we think about drills, what's important for everyone to understand, including your listeners, is that, like, all of the things that we show in our film, which are very commonplace in America, are all predicated on the idea that this violence cannot be stopped or that this violence is just coming. What we need to do instead of prevent it is the pathway for it. And so I think what we really want is to, you know, for people to feel enraged and hopeful that we don't need to live like this and that there, you know, there is a different way to live that's free from this kind of violence.

The film is called Thoughts and Prayers. It's streaming now on HBO Max. Filmmaker Zachary Canapari and Jessica Demock. Thank you so much for making the time to speak with us about it. Thank you. Thank you. Finally tonight, Reggae legend Jimmy Cliff has died. His family says the cause was complications following a seizure and pneumonia.

A native son of Jamaica, a two-time Grammy winner and a member of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, Cliff carried his country's music from the streets of Kingston to audiences around the world, turning reggae into a global sound. He was considered the first international star of reggae, and for a time, Jimmy Cliff was the genre's greatest ambassador. He personified the music of Jamaica, building a career that spanned nearly seven decades,

and a fan base that reached across the world. Cliff rose to prominence in the early 1960s was paving the way for another giant of the genre. Bob Marley, just as Jamaica was gaining its independence from Britain. He said his music and the early sounds of reggae itself were changing right along with his country. Music doesn't really stay the same, I mean, especially popular music, keeps changing.

So like reggae music, you know, we know that it's coming from, like you say, what was called ska, then to rock steady, which was the bridge to reggae. And then when it became known as reggae, that name kind of stuck. He sang in a lilting tenor voice and performed with a charismatic, upbeat persona, outward joy on stage that so often belied the seriousness and social consciousness of his music. He no people don't want another Vietnam! Cliffs' songs delved into politics and activism, like his anti-war anthem, Vietnam.

He said music could give people purpose. Music can highlight awareness, and from that awareness, people can take some kind of action to better the situation. I think that's the role music has played through the ages, and I think it's the role that it is playing now, and I think that is the role that it can play. You want them to go on big work for $10 a week for the rest? my life. I'd rather die. A gifted actor as well as musician, Cliff starred in the 1972 crime drama, the harder

they come, a groundbreaking Jamaican film. He won acclaim for his lead role as Ivan Martin, an aspiring re-gay musician turned criminal. He also wrote much of the film's soundtrack, which helped to bring reggae to a wider audience, especially in the U.S. I can see clearly now the rain is gold. After a period when his star had noticeably dimmed, he re-emerged, perhaps most memorably, with his unmistakable modern take on Johnny Nash's, I Can See Clearly Now, recorded for the soundtrack of Cool Runnings,

the 1993 hit film about the Jamaican Olympic bobsled team. Nominated for seven Grammys, he won twice for Best Reggae Album. In 2003, Cliff received Jamaica's Order of Merit, the country's highest honor for those in the arts and sciences. And in 2010, he was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. One of reggae music's greatest pioneers, Jimmy Cliff, was 81 years old. True Trailblazer, he will be missed. Well, join us back here tomorrow night for the latest in our series, Rethinking College,

and how artificial intelligence is disrupting higher education. And that is the News Hour for tonight. I'm Omna of Oz. And I'm Jeff Bennett for all of us here at the PBS NewsHour. Thanks for spending part of your evening with us.