PBS News Hour - Full Show - October 22, 2025 – PBS News Hour full episode

Episode Date: October 22, 2025

Wednesday on the News Hour, President Trump sanctions Russia's two biggest oil companies after efforts to end the war in Ukraine falter. Pressure mounts to end the government shutdown as furloughed federal workers struggle to make ends meet and millions of Americans face a spike in health care costs. Plus, the mother of a teen mistakenly arrested by immigration agents speaks out. PBS News is supported by - https://www.pbs.org/newshour/about/funders. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy

Good evening. I'm Amna Nawaz. And I'm Jeff Bennett. On the news hour tonight, President Trump sanctions Russia's two biggest oil companies after efforts to end the war in Ukraine faltered. Pressure mounts to end the U.S. government shutdown as furloughed federal workers struggled to make ends meet and millions of Americans face a spike in health care costs. And caught up in the immigration crackdown, the mother of a disabled teen mistakenly arrested. arrested by immigration agents speaks out. You just can't be targeting people just because, oh, you look like that person or because you guys got the same color skin. Welcome to the news hour.

President Trump tonight took a step that he has not yet taken in this second term, imposing major new sanctions on Russia. The Treasury Department announced the sanctions on Russia's two largest oil companies accusing Russia of not taking President Trump's pursuit of peace in Ukraine seriously. Our Nick Schifrin is following this breaking news and joins us now. Okay, Nick, so what are these sanctions? So, Jeff, they target Russia's largest oil companies, that is Rosneft and Luke Oil. And the reason is that that's significant is that oil and gas is Russia's largest single revenue source,

It's basically the backbone of Russia's economy. So less revenue presumably means less money to go into the war machine to attack Ukraine, which is why Ukraine and its allies have been asking the U.S. and Europe to actually take this step for many years, in fact. The sanctions will make it harder for banks to do business with Rosnev and Luke Oil, and harder for insurers to cover any transactions that involve those companies. And that means fewer Russian energy exports. it also could mean that Russia will have to lower the price of its oil and gas exports, therefore lowering revenue even further.

The Biden administration declined to take this step because it was worried about the effect of gas prices here in the U.S., but today gas prices are the lowest level that's been in years. All of the experts, Jeff, I speak to you tonight, say the administration could have taken an even more dramatic step on this, but they called this a major step because, again, as you said at the top, This is the first time in this term that Trump has proven that he is willing to impose major new sanctions on Russia. And that raises the question, why now? Right. And the answer to that, I think, is as important as any actual financial impact on revenue in Russia. Because the political statement behind this announcement tonight is very clear.

The Treasury Department saying it was imposing sanctions, quote, as a result of Russia's lack of serious commitment to a peace process to end the war in Ukraine. It comes just a few days after President Trump met with Ukrainian President Vladimir Zelensky in the Oval Office, a meeting in which Trump refused to provide long-range weapons and seem to pressure Zelensky into territorial concessions. But with this announcement, Trump is taking that first step to impose sanctions on Russia, as he said in the Oval Office this afternoon. Today is a very big day in terms of what we're doing. Look, these are tremendous sanctions. These are very big.

those are against their two big oil companies. I think they want peace. I think they both want peace at this point. It's been, you know, it's almost four years. You're going into four years. And if I were president, it never would have started. But, yeah, it's time. It is time.

It's certainly time for Ukraine. Jeff, Russia's bombardment continued today around the country, including a strike that you see right there on a kindergarten in Harkin. And, Nick, you have new information tonight about Ukraine's to strike inside Russia? Bring us up to speed. So the Trump administration in the last few months has imposed restrictions on the use of Western weapons, that's U.S., but also British and French weapons that Ukraine has used in the past to fire into Russia. And the region that the U.S. has influence over those British and French weapons is that the U.S. provides intelligence

that those British and French weapons need in order for Ukraine to target oil facilities, gas facilities in Russia. And a U.S. official confirms a report. report first in the Wall Street Journal this afternoon, that the Trump administration has lifted restrictions so that that intelligence can go to Ukraine so Ukraine can use those British weapons as they did just yesterday to fire at targets inside Russia. Nick Schifrin, our thanks to you for this late-breaking reporting. We appreciate it. Thank you. Congress tonight remains at a stalemate as the government shutdown enters its fourth week,

now the second longest in U.S. history. More than 700,000 federal workers are furloughed, and the impact is becoming clear. Yesterday, in Prince George's County, Maryland, home to roughly 60,000 federal employees, a line for a local food bank stretched around the block. For now, no serious negotiations are underway to end the shutdown. And there's no movement yet on the central battle behind the shutdown. That's the expiration of health care subsidies at the end of this year. Millions of Americans are bracing themselves for a significant hike in their 2026 health insurance premiums without that subsidy help, an average of about 18% increase.

It comes as health insurance costs are rising significantly throughout the country. A recent KFF survey found that the average annual premium for a family with workplace insurance reached nearly $27,000 in 2025. That is a 6% increase from the previous year. For more on the latest, I'm joined now by Cynthia Cox, Vice President and Director of the Program on the Affordable Care Act for KFF. Cynthia, welcome. Thanks for being here. Thanks for having me.

Just briefly remind us why these enhanced subsidies had an expiration date attached to them in the first place. Yeah, so these enhanced subsidies or enhanced tax credits look a lot like what Democrats have wanted for a long time, but they were passed as part of a COVID relief package. So it was passed as a temporary moment. measure. And then it was expanded again as part of the Inflation Reduction Act. But again, it had

an expiration date. And so if Congress takes no action, these enhanced tax credits are set to expire at the end of this year. So if or when they expire, depending on what happens here, when you look at who's even enrolled in these Obamacare marketplaces, who would be impacted? Yeah, so when we look at how much growth there's been, and I should say the markets have doubled in size because of these enhanced tax credits, it used to be that 11 or 12 million people, bought this insurance, now it's 24 million. When you look at that growth, it is concentrated in southern red states. So it's likely that a lot of Republican voters are actually going to be disproportionately affected by premium increases if these tax credits expire. So as these Obamacare

prices are starting to become public now, we're hearing again from critics of those health insurance marketplaces that it is the law itself. It is the Affordable Care Act that's making insurance too expensive. Is there truth to that? So the Affordable Care Act did make insurance more expensive for people who buy it themselves. That's because before the Affordable Care Act, insurance companies could deny somebody who had pre-existing conditions or they didn't have to cover their treatment.

Now insurance companies have to cover people with pre-existing conditions and they have to pay for their hospitalizations or drug treatments or whatever else. Now, the individual market or the Obamacare markets actually cost about the same as the employer market or where people get their job-based health coverage. It's just that when you get your coverage through work,

your employer is paying a lot of that premium. So people may not realize how expensive those premiums actually are for both people who get coverage through work and through the Obamic Care Markets. And we noted at the beginning of this conversation that increase we're seeing year over year in premiums. What should we understand about what's driving that? Yeah, so health insurance premiums are really driven

by the kind of underlying cost of health care. That means doctors visits, hospital stays, prescription drugs. One of the things that's newer in the last year or so and also is a big thing to watch going forward, are these newer drugs called GLP-1s, which are used to treat obesity. That's like OZMPIC, Wake-O-V, and so these drugs are very expensive,

and a lot of people want to take them, and that's actually raising costs for everybody. One of the other criticisms we hear from folks is that the enhanced subsidies, we know they didn't have an income cap attached to them, and the criticism is that people who don't actually need the subsidy, people who live very comfortably, making six-figure salaries,

received it and that's something that needs to be addressed. Can you help us understand if that's true or not? So these enhanced tax credits do phase out at higher incomes. It's just that there's not a single income at which they phase out. The reason for that is that the way the law works is that you have to pay no more than 8.5% of your income for insurance. So if your unsubsidized premium is less than that, then you don't get a subsidy. If it's more than that, then you do get a subsidy. So for an older couple, for example, where their premiums might be very high, they might get a subsidy, even if they have a six-figure income. So it sounds like as the insurance premiums are going up,

the subsidies in many ways just make that affordable for people. They can't afford it, in other words, without the subsidy. What does it say to you about the long-term functioning of the Affordable Care Act if people can't afford to buy it without federal subsidies? I mean, I think a legitimate criticism of the Affordable Care Act is that it made health care more affordable for certain people by using taxpayer dollars to offset the cost. It doesn't do a lot to address the underlying reasons

why health care is so expensive in this country, which really when you look at it is hospital costs, doctors visits, and prescription drug costs, that could be a place to look going forward. So we noted that roughly average 18% increase. If nothing changes here, what should people be bracing for if the subsidies are not renewed? Yeah, so the amount that the insurers are charging is going up 18%. But because people will be getting less financial help, how much they pay for their monthly premium payment will actually go up by 114% on average if the enhanced tax credits expire. Cynthia Cox of KFF.

Thank you very much for joining us. Appreciate your time and expertise. Thank you. is proving more extensive than previously thought. A White House official confirms to the news hour that the entirety of the East Wing is undergoing what it calls a modernization and renovation in order to support the overall ballroom project.

Video today showed heavy machinery tearing into the East Wing ceilings and walls. Back in July, President Trump pledged that his $250 million ballroom project would not interfere with the current building. The proposed 90,000 square foot ballroom, will be nearly double the size of the main White House itself. The U.S. military carried out another strike on what it called a drug-smuggling vessel, this time in the Pacific Ocean, rather than the Caribbean.

Defense Secretary Pete Hegeseth posted video of the operation on social media, writing that two, quote, narco-terrorists were killed. It is the eighth such military strike since last month. The Trump administration has justified the attacks by saying the U.S. is an armed conflict with the drug cartels, but has provided no details on the targets. At least 34 people have been killed to date. Vice President J.D. Vance was in Jerusalem today,

trying to ease concerns that the U.S. is dictating terms to Israel on issues related to the Gaza ceasefire agreement. Those include disarming Hamas and creating an international security force inside Gaza. The vice president met with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu today, with both men knocking back a reporter's question about whether Israel was becoming a protectorate of the U.S. Look, we don't want in Israel, we don't want a vassal state, and that's not what Israel

is. We don't want a client state, and that's not what Israel is. We want a partnership. We want an ally here. So we make the decisions for the security of Israel, but we make common decisions for the region, which I think can service both. Vance added that he wasn't in the region to, as he

put it, monitor a toddler, but instead to help secure a lasting peace. Meantime, the U.N.'s top court ruled today that Israel must work with international agencies in getting aid into Gaza. Israel's obligation not to use starvation of the civilian population as a method of warfare. The opinion by the International Court of Justice is not legally binding. Israel's foreign ministry swiftly rejected the decision, saying it fully upholds its obligations

under international law. In France, the Louvre reopened for the first time today since a daring heist that saw thieves make off with items valued at some one hundred million dollars. Long lines formed beneath the museum's famous glass pyramid, with one visitor saying it felt like a normal day. Though the Apollo Gallery, which had housed, the stolen jewels, remained closed. Meantime, the museum's director told the French Senate today that the theft highlighted the museum's weaknesses,

including a shortage of security cameras. She added that she had offered to resign but was refused. Through its violence, this violence, theft hurts our institutions in its most profound mission. Believe that for me, it is not about being evasive or adopting a position of denial. Despite our efforts, despite our daily determined work, they made us fail. Also today, a spokesperson for French president Emmanuel Macron called for an acceleration of increased security measures for the museum. For now, though, investigators have not recovered any of the lost jewels, and those responsible remain at large. And Wall Street

lost some momentum today following recent gains. The Dow Jones Industrial average fell more than 300 points on the day. The NASDAQ dropped more than 200 points. The S&P 500 also ended in negative territory. Still to come on the news hour, American ranchers who voted for the president raise alarm about his plan to cut record beef prices. Judy Woodruff explores the idea of constructive political debate in a world geared toward viral videos. And author Nicholas Sparks discusses his new supernatural love story, co-written with film director M. Night Shyamalan. This is the PBS News Hour from the David M. Rubinstein studio at W.E.T.A. in Washington, and in the west from the Walter Cronkite School of Journalism at Arizona State University.

Farmers, ranchers, and cattle producers are opposing President Trump's plan to buy more beef from Argentina, which he says could help offset the soaring prices of meat in the U.S. Beef and veal prices have jumped nearly 14% over the past year. But many cattle ranchers and farmers groups are concerned this move will come at their loss. It's the latest in the series of deals the president is working on with Argentina to combat that country's deepening economic crisis. The president defended his plan while speaking to reporters over the weekend. What do you have to say to U.S. farmers who feel that the deal is benefiting Argentina more than it is them?

Argentina is fighting for its life, young lady. You don't know anything about it. They're fighting for their life. Nothing is benefiting Argentina. They're fighting for their life. You understand what that means? They have no money. They have no anything.

And we're joined now by Buck Warbine, president of the National Cattlemen's Beef Association. Thanks for being with us, sir. Thank you, Jeff. So help us understand your opposition. Why are your members so strongly against expanding Argentine beef imports right now? From the outside, ranchers appear to be doing better with higher beef prices. So what's the core concern? The core concern is that it's a misguided attempt to lower prices to the consumer.

And what the rhetoric and ideas and so forth that the president has put forth has big negative impacts on our markets, like our futures market, and that is instantaneous. And yet the lag time from our cattle markets to the price in the grocery store, is long. I mean, that's years in the making. And so this is going to negatively impact producers while doing almost nothing for consumers. Well, what's driving prices today? Where are the main forces that are pushing beef prices up? Yeah, thank you, Jeff. That's a long process. There are reasons why the herd has become smaller. A lot of times it's drought, so there's lack of feed. And the cattle are raised all over the country and it takes land and forage and grass and so forth. So when it's

dry, there's fewer cows, which lowers the amount of cattle to process. And so that's happened over time. It's a fairly common occurrence in the cattle business. So the herd gets bigger and it gets smaller and has forever. And it will come back and ranchers will restock their herds as they have grass available to them, and the market will take care of that. The market will do that itself. When you hear the president say that this would help farmers in Argentina and that, in his words, this is a country fighting for their life, what's your response to that? How does that strike you?

I certainly can share, being an ag person, I can certainly share their pain, and we've been there ourselves as well. Argentina, it's not just the amount of beef coming in, but they have a little. long history of foot and mouth disease. USDA has not done a good enough job yet of making sure that everything coming from there is safe. And so we're not only concerned about the amount of beef that comes in, but also the animal health issues. And so this is a bigger thing than just cattle prices. We also know that some Republican senators from cattle states have expressed their frustration and objection to the White House alongside groups like yours, is that

message landing? Is it resonating with anybody at the White House right now? Well, I can't answer that. I don't know what the president listens to and what he thinks. We just want him to get the message from us. We are his friends. We voted for him. And this is going to hurt us and not help the people that he's trying to help. And we certainly applaud his wanting to help consumers. But it's going to be at our expense, and it's not actually going to help them. So if not more Argentine beef, what should the administration be doing right now to help bring prices down?

Yes, there are things that they can do. It will take time, but the market will take care of itself, and they've got the money and the commitment to build us a facility in South Texas to deal with the New World Screw Worm, which is a pest making its way through Mexico that will get here, and that's going to hurt us even more. on our supplies, so they can get going on that. They made a commitment in August, and we are very grateful for that, but nothing has happened

yet. We've got the Endangered Species Act with wolves that are killing lots of calves and black vultures doing the same thing, and so they could work on things like the Endangered Species Act that are invasive and are hard on our producers and other regulatory items that could help ranchers be confident that they can rebuild. they're herd and as soon as they're able to when they get grass again. So there are things that can be done. The main message, though, is that the markets work and they will work. And what we don't need is anybody manipulating them. Buck Warbine, president of the National Cattlemen's

Beef Association. Good to speak with you, sir. Thanks for your time. Thank you, Jeff. Appreciate it. As the Trump administration intensifies its crackdown on immigration, an increasing number of U.S. citizens are finding themselves caught up in the sweeping actions. A recent investigation by ProPublica reveals that more than 170 American citizens have been detained by immigration agents during the first nine months of this push. Our own Liz Landers recently spoke with the mother of one of these individuals. A 15-year-old boy with disabilities was handcuffed outside of a Los Angeles high school in August after federal immigration agents mistakenly identified him as a suspect. The boy was waiting in a car with his mother while his sister registered for classes inside.

The family is suing the Trump administration, alleging racial profiling, false arrest, and assault. Federal officials have denied any wrongdoing and say they were conducting a targeted operating. targeted operation. For more on what happened that day and why the family is taking legal action, we are now joined by Andrina Mayia, the boy's mother. Andrina, walk us through what happened that day. What happened when federal agents approached your car? I was on the phone and something told me to look up when I just seen this white truck approaching my car and it looked like coming directly to me where I'm like, oh my God, like that they lose control. Like, I he's going to hit my car and I just seen these two men get off from the front pointing their guns on me and my son like actually at our car I had my window a little bit down they just came one from my side the other one from my son's side and they just opened our doors they took me out they took my son out all I remember me telling my son is like don't make any movement just following instructions just because in my mind I'm like okay they're pointing guns if they see my son trying to reach for something I don't know if they're going to shoot so I was trying to

to maintain them calm. And after that, I just think that they pulled them out and I'm like, what's going on? The guy's like, oh, like, we're looking for somebody and your son fits that description. So I'm like, I mean,

who are you guys looking for? And they showed me a picture. And I'm like, that's not my son. Like, my son is with me at all times. So after that, they let my son come towards me as my son was approaching me. He started crying and just hugged me. And I didn't really appreciate the comment

that the guy did. where he just called my son, oh, you know, we confuse you with somebody else, but just look at the bright side, like you're going to have an exciting story to tell your friends when you go back to school. I just looked at him and as a mom, it hurt me because I was just thinking,

there's nothing exciting about getting guns pointed at you. Walk me through what it was like to hear a law enforcement officer say to you and your child that you would have an exciting story to share after they had drawn their weapons towards you. I was really upset just because, like I said, there's nothing exciting about that

and especially how can you be approaching somebody without first asking, oh, let me see an identification to see who you are. I mean, you just can't be targeting people just because, oh, you look like that person or because you guys got the same color skin. Yeah, my son is a bit darker than me, but especially a minor.

I mean, I'm the mom. you could approach me and be like, oh, we're looking for somebody. What's your son's name? I would have gave it to you. How did your son react? And you have said that he is a student with disabilities. How did that shape how he understands what happened that day?

Um, hold on. I just hate talking about it because I get all the emotional. Well, he completely doesn't understand. like the phase that he had of confusion, it was just like, I guess he was just trying to wrap his head on, like, what's going on? I mean, it's not a everyday thing that somebody just randomly gets guns pointed at them,

like, especially when you're not doing anything. I was just trying to explain it to him to the best of my ability, just because I know if somebody were to ask him something, he won't really understand what you guys are asking them. He has this thing where he always licks at me to try to be like, explain it to me in a way where I know I'm going to understand. Even though he's 15, his brain is pretty much kind of like an eight or nine-year-old.

Customs and Border Protection said in a statement to the news hour that, quote, agents were conducting a targeted operation on criminal illegal alien Christian Alexander Vasquez Alvarenga, a Salvadorian national and suspected MS-13 pledge with prior criminal convictions in the broader vicinity of Arletta, the administration here is denying wrongdoing and saying that this was simply a case of mistaken identity during a targeted operation. What is your response to that? I mean, they're wrong for that because, number one, for my son being a special kid, we're in the right mind, do they think that he's going to be gang affiliated? Second, it's like I said, my son doesn't leave my side, and that's for the same reason, because my son does not lick his age. He looks older.

I don't want people to be thinking, no, no, he's not a certain age, you know, he's the older person. Maybe she's lying. So when I heard that, that they were looking for this person and that he was apparently, you know, Salvadoran, I'm not aware of Salvadorans, you know?

At this point, it's like, what now? Like, who's going to help my son dealing with situation where there's time still that it's hard for me as his mom to wake him up in the morning to go to school? Sometimes he doesn't want to go to school. sometimes he has good days, sometimes he has bad days. Sometimes he says he can't sleep.

Right now is a little bit more calmer, but in the beginning when it was recent, I would be driving and just like making sure he was okay. And out of nowhere, he was just getting emotional. So I will pull over and I'm like, what's going on? And he's just like, oh, now like I don't feel safe because now I feel that whenever we're in the street, I have to look at my surroundings.

What message do you have for federal officials? They just need to be more professional and not just target innocent people. All this that they're doing is unacceptable and just I see all these different videos and it breaks my heart just because I'm like what world are we living in now? Like even to me that I go out

and even though I'm born here, I'm even scared sometimes to go because I'm like, what if I'm mistaken by somebody that doesn't have papers? And I tell them I do and they don't care and they still try to like, you know, grab me in a, and, like, in a way where they could hurt me.

You have filed a lawsuit. What is next for you in this incident? I just want justice and I just want them to take accountability for what they did because, like I said, before all this happened, I feel that my son was a bit different. And now with this whole situation, it's like I said, he has this good moment. He has this bad.

And he just tells me, like, no, I don't want to go to school. And, oh, he's going to go to school. We're going to get through this. me as his mom and his protector, I mean, I'm always going to make sure that he's good. Thank you so much for joining us today, for sharing your story and your son's story. We really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. In the last few years, video and other content created with artificial intelligence has begun to flood almost every part of the internet.

And on social media, it's almost unavoidable. William Brangham takes a deep dive now into the world of what's known as AI Slop. Have you seen these cats competing in Olympic diving? What about this? A baby who somehow gets control of a jumbo jet. Or this security camera footage of bunnies and jubes. enjoying a homeowner's trampoline. Each of those has been seen hundreds of millions of times,

and they are all fake. They're a type of artificially generated content that is flooding social media. Critics have dubbed it AI slop because it's quick and easy to produce and created by artificial intelligence. It's the stuff that you see in your feed that you didn't necessarily ask for, that looks a little bit off,

that was clearly generated quite quickly and quite cheaply, and is usually designed to be scrolled through for a small amount of engagement and then moved past. It's not just flying babies and bouncing bunnies. Some of the fakery is being posted from the most powerful office in the country. Breaking now. President Donald J. Trump has announced a historic new health care system. President Trump shared this fake video meant to look like a Fox News segment of him promoting a non-existent medical technology. Every American will soon receive their own medbed card.

And this, fake video of Barack Obama being arrested in the Oval Office. Plus other more clearly phony images. Trump as king, as Pope, as a buff Jedi Knight from Star Wars. Democrats do it too, most notably California Governor Gavin Newsom, here poking fun at the president's posts. A part of the president's social media strategy is reflecting the world that his supporters and honestly most Americans live in. And that online world now involves AI slop.

This so-called slop on the Internet is nothing new. You just open your email inbox at any time since the Internet's inception and you'll see spam. But starting around 2023, with the advent of free or low-cost AI generating tools, it has become possible to mass-produce this material with very little effort. We've always been able to manipulate images, audio, and video. But what has changed is who can do it, how fast they can do it. There's zero barrier to entry, and of course, they now have distribution channels. This is anybody with a keyboard and internet connection, making any image, any video,

anybody doing or saying anything, and then distributing it to the world instantaneously through social media. And that is a radically different landscape that we are facing than we have faced in the past. Like AI itself, AI image and video tools have advanced incredibly quickly. A few years ago, someone tried to animate actor Will Smith eating spaghetti. and it looked like this, deformed and glitchy and clearly not real. But today's tools, using this same benchmark, can make this. And there's almost no limits to what it can do other than limits imposed by the AI company that says,

we don't want you creating certain types of content because it's either illegal or harmful. Two of the biggest players, Google and Open AI, ban creating certain content, things that are sexually explicit, or promote things like violence or terrorism, or content that could cause someone to hurt themselves, but many have found ways around those guardrails.

Now, it's important to note that not all AI-generated content is considered Slop. Some artists and musicians have embraced this frontier using these tools. AI Slop in particular is typically made at scale to try and draw eyeballs online and thus earn money for its creators. The kinds of people who make Slop tend to be entrepreneurs, and hustlers, often in relatively low or middle-income countries that have good knowledge of English and a lot of widespread internet connectivity. So you see it a lot in India, Pakistan, Kenya, Nigeria, Brazil. It's pretty hardworking guys trying to make a buck off of a business

proposition that has been offered to them by Facebook itself or by TikTok itself. The best performing material plays on strong emotional responses, like sympathy. or fear. The very things that you are most likely to click on is by design. You are being manipulated to steal your time, your attention, and so that these companies can deliver you ads. The tech giants are betting that these AI videos can help keep you glued to their platforms. Both meta and open AI recently announced consumer-friendly ways to create and watch short-form

AI videos. In addition to the environmental toll from this technology, AI requires a very much more than huge amounts of electricity and water. Critics say AI slop just further supercharges the stew of confusion and misleading content on the internet and creates yet another hook that keeps people lost in their phones. We live online now, and suddenly this online environment has been filled with a much higher volume of slop. On your typical Instagram Reel session, you're looking at 20 different videos, and 15 of those

videos now are AI Slop videos. That's 15 chances that you're missing to connect with a friend of yours, to learn something new, to find some joke that you can send to the group chat, you know, and forge a new bond with people over. And critics argue yet another tool that blurs the line between reality and fact. For PBS NewsHour, I'm William Brangham. The assassination of Charlie Kirk in Utah last month brought renewed attention to the ways Americans debate and engage in political dialogue. Kirk was famous in part for his back and forth with students on college campuses, moments he posted on social media that often went viral. Judy Woodruff reports now on the spectacle that debate has become in the U.S.

and what it means for our ability to disagree. It's part of her series, America, at a crossroads. Friends, this is a real honor to see y'all. At the College of Charleston in South Carolina, communications professor Michael Lee is on a mission. We're going to go around the room and talk about the debates that I asked you to watch.

Lee directs the civility initiative and calls his students free expression fellows. His goal is to improve the nature of our debates, dialogue, and disagreements. Can all agree to disagree in some ways? And I think that it feels a little bit more doable, not really like as much respect and politeness, more just like basic, like, it's okay, we can disagree and just move on.

Lee's students learn how to organize productive debates and discussions, like one earlier this month on campus, between two former South Carolina lawmakers, Republican Congressman Trey Gowdy and Democratic state legislator Bacari Sellers. This country will become better for the types of dialogues that we're having now. It is easy to hate someone that you know nothing about. You get to know them, and the differences may remain, but the hate dissipates. The origins of debate trace back to at least ancient Greece, where philosophers and scholars of rhetoric taught students how to argue multiple sides of a given issue.

Today, Lee says both debate and dialogue have become critical to solving society's problems. I think both of those are threatened in the culture, by obviously our polarization, but also our lack of trust. And then there's massive miss and disinformation, and so we need debate and dialogue to figure out what's true and what we should do about it. We don't have any right to do that to any listen to these fucking morons. Lee's work now comes against the backdrop of an online culture

that incentivizes viral confrontation. Who cares you, doesn't? Democrats are Americans, Democrats are an American, so therefore you just admit it. With titles like woke liberals get owned or MAGA caller destroyed, it's not uncommon for clips of political debates to have millions of views. Thank you for your time. Like Charlie Kirk's Prove Me Wrong conversations on college campuses. You're just as much of cog in the capitalist system.

Or debates with a liberal live streamer destiny. I'm here at Jubilee, and today I'm surrounded by 20 conspiracy theorists. But perhaps no outlet in this issue. area has received as much attention as Jubilee. The LA-based media company was founded after the 2016 election to bring people with different ideas together. Entrepreneur Jason Lee founded the company and is its CEO. I just felt like the country was more divided than ever. And I felt like there was just this huge white space in the center for young people, which was about empathy, about dialogue, about nuance, which unfortunately at that time, and unfortunately now, it

It felt like we weren't seeing. Today, Jubilee produces several series, including Surrounded, a show with debate such as one atheist versus 25 Christians or one Republican versus 25 Kamala Harris voters. Why not focus on the economy itself? All of us are struggling and you want to focus on trans people. Jubilee has 10.5 million YouTube subscribers. Its Surrounded episode featuring Charlie Kirk has. been seen 38 million times.

And in July, Jubilee released an episode of Surrounded with liberal commentator Medi Hassan. Clips quickly ping ponged around the internet, showing Hassan confronting 20 far-right conservatives. But you don't condemn Nazi persecution of the Jews? I think that there was a little bit of persecution. We may have to rename the show because you're a little bit more than a far-right Republican. Hey, what can I say? I think you say, I'm a fascist. Yeah, I am. The viral videos sparked controversy and criticism of Jubilee over both the nature of its debates and the vetting of participants. In a statement of the news hour, a Jubilee spokesperson said, quote, as our platform has grown, so has our commitment to evolving the vetting process. Jubilee

is one of the few spaces on the internet that is not an echo chamber. Debate is a different animal. Professor Michael Lee's students have spent hours analyzing Jubilee's videos and others like them. It's just to create buzz, just to get viral. I'm so used to seeing the 10-second clickbaits, the gotcha moments. How do you see what's available to so many students as they pick up their phone or their device? What are they seeing and how much of that is healthy? I'm of two minds about some of these viral videos.

where on the one hand, of course, the types of debates that we encourage and the types of debates I train students to plan and participate in are longer form. They encourage arguments, evidence, and rebuttals. And on the other hand, two people in a room together talking even angrily about, even in gotcha ways, about politics, is the merest form of coexistence. I mean, it is a building block of democracy. Lee also argues that this phenomenon isn't necessarily new. Lincoln and Douglas were going for Zingers. Every presidential debate has featured Zingers. Making your point as concisely and persuasively as possible is always going to be a part of winning debates.

And so I do think the idea that we're in a totally unique moment and the debate has changed fundamentally is wrong. Thank you very much, Chris, for that very fine speech. Founded in 1815, the Cambridge Union and England is one of the oldest debating societies in the world. Over the years, the union has hosted key political and cultural figures from around the globe. What this does to the subjugated, writer and civil rights activist James Baldwin famously debated conservative author William F. Buckley here in 1965. The country has not in its whole system of reality evolved any place for you.

There is no instant cure for the race problem in America. The union posts videos of its debates to YouTube, and recently clips with Charlie Kirk and the conservative commentator Ben Shapiro have soared to among its most watched. Ivan Alexei Ampia is the union's president. Sometimes in this hypersensationalized medium that we're at, it's about getting somebody. It's about proving a point. It's about stabbing somebody in the back. about making a spectacle, which I can understand why that's an impulse. It sells, but it stops

short of what it is that we're trying to achieve. Debating is a process. Debating is an activity. Debating is a pathway, but it's not the solution. The solution are the answers after the debate. It's what the debate achieves. And whilst I understand that it's important for us to watch these things like Jubilee, we shouldn't treat them solely as entertainment. We should also realize that they're affecting how people approach debate. My first claim is that anti-vaccine lies cost lives. In March, Jubilee published an episode of Surrounded featuring Mikhail Varshavsky, a family medicine physician known as Dr. Mike on social media, where he often debunks medical

misinformation. He debated 20 vaccine skeptics. Nothing in life is 100 percent safe. or walking here today is not 100% safe. I can have a heart attack right now. Cannot predict it. But what we can do is try to do the best that we can with the information that we have. Varshavsky told us it was his idea to go on surrounded.

Of course, there's going to be bad actors who weaponize this and allow them to get millions of views, tons of sponsorship dollars. That's not going anywhere anytime soon. But instead of just villainizing it, I think we need to study it. We need to figure out how to do it. it effectively so that we can be there to contradict the false narratives, inaccurate information, and conspiracy theories. Back in Charleston, students in Michael Lee's class used Dr. Mike's episode of Surrounded as an

example of productive debate. He was still obviously sharing his views and opinions, but he was fascinated by what other people had to say. For Lee, this work has taken on new meaning since Charlie Kirk was assassinated. In the days after the killing, Lee asked his students how they felt about organizing debates on campus. Do you feel safe doing it? Do you feel like it's more important? Do you feel like it's less important?

Do you feel like it's debate's fault? And we all came to a kind of rough agreement that it's more important than ever, that there be healthy debate and healthy conflicts in the culture and, of course, on college campuses. For the PBS News Hour, I'm Judy Woodruff in Charleston, South Carolina. Best-selling author Nicholas Sparks has built a career writing emotionally grounded love stories like The Notebook and a Walk to Remember that explore the resilience of the human heart. His latest novel, Remain, adds an unexpected twist, co-written with filmmaker M Night Channel. It blends Sparks' trademark romance with Shyamalan's sense of mystery and the supernatural. The two teamed up to craft a story about loss, faith, and finding meaning after grief.

I spoke with Nicholas Sparks about the collaboration and the new creative territory it opened up. Nicholas Sparks, welcome to the News Hour. Thank you for having me. Thrill to be here. Your name is practically synonymous with deeply human love stories. This book, Remain, adds a supernatural dimension. natural dimension. You co-wrote it with filmmaker M. Knight-Shameleon. How did that collaboration begin and what convinced you that it would work? Yeah, it kind of began in one of those funny Hollywood ways, right? I had my agent in Hollywood knew someone in blinding edge pictures and they

were talking. They said, hey, we should get Nick and Knight together. And I've heard that you know, a couple dozen times over the last 25 years and usually nothing ever happens. But this one came through, a meeting was set up, and the purpose of that meeting was each of us was going to come up with an original story that would work as both a novel and a film, and that would work for his audiences and mine, and we were going to pitch each other our stories. And that was in May of 2023, and didn't really hear anything until August of 2024. And he called me up and he said, hey, you know, that idea that we really hammered out back, you know, the previous year? I said, yeah, he said, I think it's going to be my next film, which is, you know, by that he meant he was going to write it, direct it, produce it the whole bit.

And so I said to myself, well, I guess I have to write a novel then. And so I sat out to do that. The book is out now. The film will be released next year. You've often explored love after loss. What new dimension were you reaching for this time? Yeah. Well, and there was a couple of them, right? I really wanted to explore the theme that Knight and I really harped on. And that's really that love is sometimes the only thing that can save us, right, in moments of whatever we're going through. And I tend to believe, and I've certainly lived my life and my novels, kind of reflect this general idea that I have of all the good stuff in life and in the world. come from love, right?

And the goal here was with Remain was to do it in a way that will maybe be surprising to my readers and surprising to his viewers in the best possible way. This is your 26th book, is that right? 26th book, 25th novel. Yeah, I know.

It's a lot. I mean, when I think about that, I'm like, how did I do that? I remember after writing the notebook, I finished the notebook, and, you know, I was excited and sold to the publisher, but I remember very vividly thinking, well, that was it. That's the only story that I have, right? I had no idea that I'd be going three decades later. And still, to this day, after I finish a novel, that's what I say. Well,

that's it. Pretty much covered everything there is on this topic. There's nothing left. And then eventually another story comes. It's, I guess it's amusing. You know, my agent and people I work with, they say, oh, you'll come up with it. You know, when I say these things in the moment, I genuinely believe it. I'm like, that's it. I got nothing. The well is dry.

I don't know. How do you find fresh emotional territory to explore? Yeah, it's, it's, it's every idea, every novel has one germination point. And that can be anything, right? It could be, you know, the walk to remember was inspired by my sister in her battle with cancer, for instance. So, you know, that's the germination point. Other times it's a theme for this one, hey, love and the supernatural. Other times it's maybe a character or something that you've read in the newspaper, hey, oh, that might be an interesting element to incorporate in the novel. When I wrote

the wish, you know, I'd wanted to do an adoption story for years after I finish a book, I think starting in my third or fourth book, I wanted to do an adoption story of something. I wanted to do an adoption story of some kind, but I could never come up with the story. It took 20 years and adoption. And then I was thinking about that story and said, you know, I'd also like to do a Christmas story. And the two ideas came together and that eventually became the wish. So you have that initial point can come from anywhere. And then from there you start asking yourself questions, you know, what would be the best kind of character to tell the story that I want to tell? You know, what's his age or what is her age. What do they do? Where are they in life? Are they young? Are they single? Are they divorced? Are they widowed? What is the best? What's going on in their life? And you kind of get to a point where I reach 20, 25 ideas, the big ones, like how the book begins and ends, maybe four or five of the major plot elements, you know, who the characters are, the general theme. If I have that, then I'm usually

ready to go ahead and start writing. But if I don't have those, and that list of 25 can break any time, right? I've got dozens of ideas that got to idea number eight or idea number 12, but he didn't quite get enough to be able to write the book. And my process is different than other process. You know, I've read Stephen King. He doesn't know how a novel's going to end when he starts writing. He doesn't know everything that's going to happen. And all I can think is, how can you write like that, you know? How do you know it's all going to come together, right? I mean, everyone in this field, you know, they have their own process and, you know, mine works for me. It strikes me that creatively genre can be limiting at times. It can carry stigma. You have romance and

fiction, supernatural in film. Is that something that you feel? Does it ever shape how you write? No, I could care less about stigmas or anything like that. I write stories that I think will stand the test of time, or at least that's what I strive to do. And certainly you look at something like the notebook. You know, it's been out, you know, 30 years now. And it's still widely purchased, widely read. It's read in schools and things like that. And that's what I try to do is to write a timeless story. You know, if you look at some of the great things in literature are exactly what I write, right? Maybe different style or whatever, but Romeo and Juliet, you know, if I just say that, pretty much everyone knows what the story is, or if I say, you know, a farewell to arms by Ernest Hemingway. People know that story, too. Like I said, you know, love is a, it's one of the great themes that's driven literature and everything since the very beginning. So I don't feel any stigma. The challenge of that genre is to try to do each story. very originally, so I'm not replicating myself.

And therein lies the challenge. The book, Remain, is out now with M. Knight-Shammelon, written by Nicholas Sparks. It's a real pleasure to speak with you. Thanks for joining us. Hey, thank you for having me. I appreciate it. And that is the News Hour for tonight. I'm Omna Nawaz. And I'm Jeff Bennett for all of us here at the PBS News Hour. Thanks for spending part of your evening with us.