PBS News Hour - Full Show - September 9, 2025 – PBS News Hour full episode

Episode Date: September 9, 2025

Tuesday on the News Hour, revised government numbers raise new questions about the strength of the U.S. economy. As Israel tries to assassinate Hamas' leadership in Qatar, a look at what the strike means for already stalled ceasefire talks. Plus, Health Secretary Kennedy unveils his Make America Healthy Again strategy amid concerns about its lack of scientific evidence. PBS News is supported by - https://www.pbs.org/newshour/about/funders. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy

Good evening. I'm Jeff Bennett. I'm the Navaz is on assignment. On the news hour tonight, the U.S. job market is proving weaker than earlier reports suggested. Revised government numbers raise new questions about the strength of the U.S. economy. We take full responsibility for this action. Israel tries to assassinate Hamas's leadership in Qatar. What the strike means for already stalled ceasefire talks to end the war in Gaza. And Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. unveils his Make America Healthy Again Strategy amid concerns about its lack of scientific evidence. Welcome to the News Hour. New data showed the U.S. job market was much weaker than initially reported for much of last year, during President Biden.

in some of this year under President Trump. More than 900,000 fewer jobs were added in 2024 and 2025 than previously expected. The Bureau of Labor Statistics issues these revisions every year, but this year's change is the biggest revision on record. And it comes after President Trump fired the BLS Commissioner last month after a weaker than expected monthly jobs report. For a closer look, we're joined now by Julia Coronado, President of Macro Policy perspectives. It's always great to have you on the program. So we knew the labor market was softening, but these revisions suggest the slowdown started earlier and was more severe than we thought. What's your reaction? And what factors do you see driving the weakness?

So let's keep in mind, we get this timely measure of jobs every month from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. And it's based on a sample of firms. And then there's a quarterly, almost a census of employment that comes with a lag. And we knew a downward revision was coming because we could see some of that quarterly data. And every year they benchmark this. So just to kind of, this is a normal process they go through every year.

We knew that the numbers were a bit overstated. And one of the challenges right now is that we've had this major swing in immigration from hundreds of thousands of new people entering the labor market every month, every quarter to one where we're actually losing immigrants on balance. And that, I think, is part of the one contributing factor to the big swing from several hundred jobs being created every month to what now looks like more like 70,000 jobs created every month in the year ending

in March. When you say we knew the numbers were overstated, why? What accounts for that? So again, we get this quarterly census of employment. It's based on the administrative data that underpins the unemployment insurance system that covers pretty much every worker in the country. So we do know on a quarterly basis how many people are working in the economy. And it's really strong, comprehensive data. But again, it's not timely. And we really want to know in real time. So we have this monthly, jobs report. So we could see as that quarterly data came in that the payroll numbers that we look at every month were a little bit stronger than each month than what that quarterly data suggested. And now we have other measures like ADP private payrolls. We've got several metrics of independent data. And then, of course, we have the unemployment rate, which is what tells us whether a lot of people who want to work are not finding jobs. Excuse me, and that's not affected by this benchmark revision. The unemployment rate still is our best measure of weakness, and what

that is telling us right now is that there's a little bit of weakness creeping in, but that even though job creation was a bit smaller over the prior year, unemployment was still pretty low. So what sectors saw the biggest revisions, and what does that tell us about where the economy is losing momentum? So most of the downward revisions came in the private sector, and they were concentrated in leisure and hospitality and retail, and then some in wholesale trade as well. So there were a few sectors where there were some concentrated, very large downward revisions. Those can be some of the hardest to measure because they feature lots of small firms and a lot of

seasonal and part-time employment. And so those were the areas where we saw the biggest downward revisions. Also today, J.P. Morgan Chase, CEO, Jamie Diamond, said this report confirms that the U.S. economy is slowing. Take a listen. Yeah. You know, I think the economy is weakening. You know, whether that is on the way to recession or just weakening, I don't know. And that just confirms what we already thought kind of.

Would you agree with that assessment? Yeah, I think the combination of the data that we're seeing does confirm that the economy is slowing. I think that is what's going to lead the Fed to lower rates next week, even though inflation is per- And that was Julia Coronado. We seem to have—oh, Julia, you're back with us. If you can finish your thought there, you get a technical interruption there. Oh, okay, no worries. I do agree.

The economy is slowing. We think that the Fed will conclude that when it meets next week and decide to lower interest rates a little bit, even though the challenge it's facing is that we're also seeing higher inflation. On another matter, the White House said that this proves that Biden's economy was a disaster. They're labeling the Bureau of Labor Statistics as broken. How much political pressure does that add on this institution, the BLS, that is supposed to be independent? There's a lot of pressure on the institution right now. I certainly see those accusations as completely unfounded. I have worked with the statisticians at the BLS for decades. They are dedicated public servants.

There is no evidence of political bias. They work very hard to maintain high data quality, even as their budget gets cut. So I don't think that's a fair critique. of the agency. I think the economy, a big dynamic economy like the U.S. is just really hard to measure. And if they want some more accurate data, then perhaps we should consider funding the BLS better and allowing them to better meet the challenges of measuring this economy. Julia Coronado, president of macro policy perspectives. Thank you for joining us this evening.

My pleasure. A dramatic escalation in an already white-hot Middle East today. For the first time, Israel attacked Qatar, a key U.S. regional ally and the mediator of ceasefire talks between Israel and Hamas. The target? A meeting of senior Hamas officials in the capital, Doha. As Nick Schifrin tells us, in response, the White House voiced rare criticism of the U.S. of Israel today. Today, an attack in a country trying to mediate peace. Residents of Doha flee explosions, multiple Israeli airstrikes, targeting the homes of Hamas's

entire remaining political leadership. Hamas says all survived, but six people died, including the son of one of the attacked leaders. Israel called the strike a response to yesterday's attack in Jerusalem that killed six Israeli civilians for which Hamas took responsibility, as well as the deaths of four Israeli soldiers yesterday in Gaza, and the precise targeting of those responsible for the October 7 terrorist attacks. I said at the beginning of the war that no one involved in that massacre will get away with it.

As Prime Minister of Israel, I'm working to fulfill this promise. Israel acted wholly independently, wholly independently, and we take full responsibility for this action. And this action can open the door to an end of the war. But the strike targeted the very Hamas political leaders who could have helped end the war diplomatically. They were considering a new U.S.-Israeli-backed ceasefire plan for Gaza that President Trump had called a last warning. Earlier in the day, an Israeli official told PBS NewsHour, Israel had provided the U.S.

a heads-up before the strike. But today, White House Press Secretary Caroline Levitt criticized the strike and said the heads-up came only during the attack. The Trump administration was notified by the United States military that Israel was attacking Hamas, which very unfortunately was located in a section of Doha, the capital of Qatar. Unilaterally bombing inside Qatar, a sovereign nation and close ally of the United States that is working very hard in bravely taking risks with us to broker peace,

does not advance Israel or America's goals. But Leavitt also suggested the target was that. legitimate. However, eliminating Hamas who have profited off the misery of those living in Gaza is a worthy goal. President Trump immediately directed special envoy Whitkoff to inform the Qataris of the impending attack, which he did. The president views Qatar as a strong ally and friend of the United States and feels very badly about the location of this attack. The attack happened at 346. The first call we had from an American official was at 356, which is 10 minutes after the attack. Tonight, Katar's Prime Minister, Mohamed Abdul-Raman Al-Tani, called Israel's attacks, quote,

state terrorism and said they ended the Gaza negotiations. When it comes to the current talks, I don't think there is something valid right now, while after we're seeing such an attack. Israel's attacks continue to target Gaza's largest city and its highest buildings. And today Israel distributed thousands of leaflets, instructing Gaza City residents to evacuate to the south. Israel pushes on with its vow to capture Gaza's city, forcing Gazans to once again pack up their entire livelihoods and flee to the south.

to grieve the war's youngest victims. Omar Serrur's grandson was sleeping when he says an Israeli strike killed him. He was sitting there sleeping in a tent with his father and mother, and he didn't see anything except a missile that hit the tent. He was a five-year-old child. By God, this is truly injustice. This is a crime you are committing. Tonight, President Trump added to the White House's earlier statement about the Doha strike

and further distance himself from it, writing, quote, this was a decision made by Prime Minister Netanyahu. It was not a decision made by me. For a deeper look, we turn to Mona Yakubian, director and senior advisor of the Middle East program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a Washington think tank. She has over three decades of experience

working on the Middle East. And David Shanker was Assistant Secretary of State for Near Eastern Affairs during the first Trump administration. He's now a senior fellow at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy. Thanks very much, both of you. Welcome to the News Hour. Mona Yucubian, let me start with you.

What's your response to Israel's strike in Doha today? Well, it's stunning. It's unprecedented. This is the first time we've seen Israel strike the capital of a Gulf country, and a country that also happens to host the largest U.S. military installation in the region. It marks a very dangerous escalation in tensions. David Schengar, do you see it as a dangerous escalation?

Well, I think it is something that is unusual, maybe not so unprecedented. Israel has killed Hamas officials in Arab states before. But this is something that I think the region, much of the region will see, is provocative and a little reckless. So let's talk about the region. A senior diplomat from a Gulf country told me this tonight, that the impact of the strike is that nobody feels safe. Because even the Trump administration, this diplomat told me, couldn't stop Netanyahu from attacking Qatar, which is designated a U.S. major non-NATO ally. And that, quote, I would put a big question about whether the Abraham Accords can survive, unquote, of course, the deal that the Trump administration made during the first administration with multiple Middle Eastern countries and Israel. So, Moni Okubian, do you agree that the impact regionally is that high?

quite significant. I mean, the region has increasingly viewed Israel as the primary threat, not Iran. They see Israel as acting with impunity and transgressing international law and norms on a regular basis. Whether it goes so far as to have countries withdraw from the Abraham Accords, that's an open question. But there's no doubt that the region, increasingly views Israel as the chief purveyor of destabilization. David Shankar, what's the impact of that? Do you agree with that? And if that's the case, is there a threat to some of the Abraham Accords work that you yourself did? Well, there was no threat that Qatar will now not be joining the Abraham Accords. They were not on the list or even remotely have the potential for being there. But I think there's other things that are actually more of a threat. You know, just last week, United Arab Emirates said they would slow down normalization,

maybe suspend the Abraham Accords, withdraw their ambassador from Tel Aviv if Israel decided to annex territories. We've heard really bellicose statements toward Israel coming out of Jordan in response, not only to the threats of annexation of the West Bank, but also the impending digops in operations in Gaza. So at a minimum, Abraham Accords aren't going to be expanded anytime soon. Let's keep in mind, though, that this Gaza war, the longer it goes on, the longer it's going to take for any of these potential partners to get in line, to normalize, to do anything close with Israel. Yeah, Moner, you mean, the Cynic in me says, well, the impact on the Abraham Accords,

the impact on the region is really just what happens in Gaza. And it's not really really a huge impact to have a strike in Doha, despite what you guys have said, in part because the military leadership in Gaza is the one making the decisions, not the political leadership in Doha. Well, we're saying look at the ways in which the country and countries have really come together in the face of this latest option by Israel, but I don't think it's limited just to Gaza. I think the region, more broadly, takes a look at, takes account of Israel's actions. Let's note this is now the second time in just a few months that Israel has undertaken military strikes in the midst of negotiations, whether it was the U.S. and Iran or now the Qatari's seeking to negotiate between Hamas and Israel.

I think it's raising much bigger questions in the region about what role Israel. sees for itself. What is its end game? And, you know, I think it does broadly raise questions about whether or not and how Israel could eventually be integrated into the Arab world. David Shanker, if you were still Assistant Secretary of State right now, would you advise, should the president impose any kind of penalty on Israel for targeting a U.S. non-NATO major ally? Listen, I think Qatar can withstand quite a bit. Let's remember that This summer, they were attacked by 12 missiles coming from Iran. They didn't do anything in response.

I think Qatar, which sort of plays it both ways many times, for them, this is sort of the price of doing business, perhaps. But no, I don't expect sanctions. In fact, I think the U.S. knew about this well in advance. Udaid, our largest base in the region, has a force protection footprint of the whole island. And so this must have been cleared, you know, days, if not more, beforehead. But fortunately, I think Qatar is, you know, has accepted the sort of, you know, the U.S. explanation, notwithstanding it, straining credulity. Just to be clear, very quickly, David Schenker, the White House said clearly today that it did not get days or, you know,

you know, any kind of advance notice, it saw the planes in the air. You know, the threat for and of mistakes for a major U.S. base in the region to have airplanes flying toward it, this requires some coordination beforehand. So I think the United States, the Trump administration is trying to thread the needle here, give the Qatari's sort of plausible deniability that the U.S. was not. implicated somehow, but my sense is that it's more than likely we had a little bit more advanced notice. Moni Yucubian, just in the 20 or so seconds we have left, what's the impact of this on the negotiations

to end the war in Gaza? I think the negotiations have been set extremely far back. Any hope for a ceasefire now is just a distant prospect at best. Mona Yucubian, David Shanker. Thanks very much to you both. Thank you. Thank you. The day's other headlines start with reaction to a letter allegedly signed by President Donald Trump

for Jeffrey Epstein's 50th birthday back in 2003, which the Wall Street Journal first reported back in July. The letter was among documents released late Monday by the House Oversight Committee and its reviving script. of Mr. Trump's ties to the late convicted sex offender and intensifying calls to release the rest of the Epstein files. The White House tonight is fighting to contain the fallout after House Democrats released Jeffrey Epstein case documents that referenced the president by name. That this absolutely was not the president's authentic signature, and we have maintained that position all along.

White House Press Secretary Caroline Levitt, referring to this letter in Jeffrey Epstein's so-called birthday book from 2003, which appears to be signed by President Trump. It shows a silhouette of a woman's body, framing text that says, we have certain things in common and references a, quote, wonderful secret. Another page from the book includes a photo of a check that appears to show Epstein jokingly selling a, quote, fully depreciated woman to Mr. Trump.

The president in a brief phone interview with NBC News this morning refused to discuss the matter, saying, I don't comment on something that's a dead issue. I gave all comments to the staff. It's a dead issue. But Epstein remains a fraught subject for Mr. Trump. It dredges up uncomfortable questions about his past associations and fractures his political coalition. Some in his base dismiss it as old news,

while others see it as part of a broader pattern of scandal that undercuts his outsider appeal. The president has repeatedly called the letter fake and sued the Wall Street Journal for defamation after the paper first reported its existence in July. House Republicans largely lined up behind the president today, including chairman of the House Oversight Committee, James Comer. The president says he did not sign it, so I take the president of his word. Meantime across the aisle, Democrats today pushed Republicans to support a procedural maneuver that would force a vote on releasing the remainder of the Epstein files.

If Republicans don't want to engage in a cover-up of pedophilia in this pedophilia ring, they should go sign this discharge petition. Four Republican members are signing on, along. with all Democrats, but two more signatures are required to force the vote. Democratic Congressman Roe Kana, a member of the House Oversight Committee, said last night he believes they'll get those signatures once two vacant seats are filled in special elections. Both of those candidates have said they're going to sign the discharge petition. That gets us to 218, and that will trigger a vote one week later in the House of Representatives.

In news overseas, Nepal's Prime Minister resigned amid widespread deadly protests after the government imposed a wide-ranging social media ban, which was lifted today. After the resignation, protesters burned the former Prime Minister's home. Multiple media outlets have reported that his wife was trapped inside and died from her injuries. Elsewhere, demonstrators vandalized and set fire to multiple buildings, including government offices and police stations. For many protesters, the Prime Minister's resignation was seen as a victory, despite the chaos.

Today we feel very happy. It feels like a day of victory for us. If yesterday was a dark day, today is a bright one. We feel extremely happy. Now it feels like the Nepali people have won. Nepal's army says it's committed to restoring order after declaring a 10 p.m. curfew. Still crowds of protesters remained on the streets well into the night.

In Ukraine, a Russian glide bomb struck a small village just six miles from the front lines today, killing at least 24 people. Authorities say the attack happened in broad daylight in the town Yarova in the eastern region of Dinesk. Police say the bomb hit as dozens of people waited in the open air to collect their monthly pensions. At least 19 people were also injured. Some residents rushed to the scene when they heard the blast, knowing their loved ones were among the crowd. My wife left. She said, I'm going to get a pension for grandmother. 20 minutes later, I heard an explosion.

I went out to the yard and saw a smoke mushroom rising somewhere from the center. I started calling her, but there was no connection. The phone wasn't answering. The UN says more than 12,000 Ukrainian civilians have been killed since Russia launched its invasion more than three years ago. Following today's attack, Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky urged allies to send more air defense weapons to Ukraine, and called for additional sanctions on Russia.

In Michigan today, a judge dismissed the cases against 15 people who had been accused of trying to falsely certify Donald Trump as the winner of the 2020 election in that state. Each of the accused faced forgery charges that carry a maximum of 14 years in prison. The judge said she did not believe the defendants were intending to commit fraud but were executing their constitutional right to seek redress. The defendants included some high-profile members, of the Michigan Republican Party.

The outcome is a major blow to prosecutors in four other states who were pursuing similar fake elector cases. High school seniors are testing at the lowest level in decades when it comes to reading and math. That's according to the National Assessment of Education Progress, also known as

the nation's report card. 12th graders posted the lowest reading score in the history of the assessment going back to 1992, and math scores were the lowest since 2005. Overall, only about a third. of seniors are leaving high school with the reading and math skills necessary for college. The report also found that eighth graders lost ground in science for the first time since 2009.

The results are based on exams administered last year, and they point to a continued decline in academic performance that started before the COVID-19 pandemic. The U.S. Supreme Court says it will hear arguments in November on whether President Trump has the authority to impose sweeping tariffs on nearly every country in the world. The time frame is remarkably quick by the standards of the nation's highest court. The case is one of the biggest tests of the president's executive authority, since the Constitution gives Congress the power to impose tariffs. Already two lower courts have found most of Mr. Trump's tariffs to be illegal,

though an appeals court has left them in place while the legal process plays out. On Wall Street today, stocks posted modest gains following those revised jobs numbers. The Dow Jones Industrial Average added nearly 200 points. Nasdaq rose about 80 points on the day. The S&P 500 closed at a new all-time high. And the oldest pipe organ in the Christian world was played again for the first time in 800 years. The organ's original 11th century pipes echoed through this small monastery in Jerusalem's old city during a special concert yesterday. instrument dates back to the Crusades. It's believed that crusaders brought the organ to Bethlehem when Christians controlled the city. They later buried the instrument to shield it from

invading Muslim armies. It was rediscovered back in 1906 and brought back to life this week, leading one researcher to say that it's been like finding a living dinosaur. Still to come on the news hour, we examine Secretary Kennedy's plan to, quote, make America healthy again. The killing of a Ukrainian refugee in Charlotte, North Carolina reignites debate about crime. And author Dan Brown discusses his long-awaited new novel, The Secret of Secrets. This is the PBS News Hour from the David M. Rubenstein studio at WETA in Washington, and in the west from the Walter Cronkite School of Journalism at Arizona State University. The Trump administration released its plan today for improving health outcomes and tackling chronic childhood illnesses.

It comes from Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and the Make America Healthy Again, or Maha, commission he oversees. The plan lays out more than 120 proposals from cutting back on processed foods to reassessing behavioral medications for kids. Kennedy also wants a review of the vaccination schedule and the vaccine injury compensation fund. He says if the changes are implemented, it could improve public health. A lot of these 128 recommendations are things that I've been dreaming about my whole life. Our Lisa Desjardin was at HHS for the unveiling of these guidelines and joins us now to explain what's in the framework. It's always great to see you.

So help us understand what is this report exactly? This is a part two. In May, Maha, the commission came out with its first report, which was really showing what the problem was in American health, and it's an immense problem. This is the part two, the strategy that RFK Jr., the secretary, and the Maha Commission are proposing to deal with it. These are not rules going into effect, but actions that they plan to take. Now, they're saying overall that what they want is a new approach to all of these issues. Here's how the FDA commissioner put it. Doctors are thirsty for this fresh new agenda.

We can tell that something's not right. We've done a terrible thing to doctors in this country. The health care system has put them on a hamster wheel where we are treating, we're prescribing, we're operating. I was on this wheel. Now, the report's not long, 20 pages, and most of these guidelines or actions are short bullet points. Some of them are general, some specific. But there's an example I want to give about nutrition. So here's kind of the things that we're in here.

For example, they are proposing front-of-packaged nutrition labels, allowing full-fat milk in school lunches, and new testing for infant formula. Now, there are, of course, many other things I've already done, like taking red dyes out of school lunches, for example, microplastics, investigating that is in here. Some of these ideas are new, maybe controversial, like more investigations about fluoride and its effect on health. But some, Jeff, are familiar and regular, like reinventing, again, the food pyramid. And there have been a range of reactions to this report, especially on pesticides. This is an issue on which Kennedy, when he was just a private citizen, had been a longtime vocal critic. of U.S. policy. What's this say about pesticide regulation?

Kennedy is no longer such a loud critic, at least not in this report. It does mention pesticides and further investigation about pesticides. But other than that, it talks about messaging that enforcing the idea that the EPA's pesticide regulations are safe. That's why I asked about this, because obviously it's an important area of health and a big part of debate. And you'll notice the answer I've gotten this was varied. It shows the different views among the Trump administration officials. EPA administrator Lee Zeldon, for example, focused on how he's applying current rules. We are a concern from enforcement standpoint, the use of illegal pesticides, the importing of

pesticides into the country and working with other partner agencies to crack down on that. But you know, Ag Secretary, Brooke Rollins, jumped in right then, and she had said something a little bit different. Arguably, there is no perfect process, but it is a strong process that our farmers stand by, and a crop protection tool such as pesticides is absolutely essential for America not to compromise our food supply system point. This is obviously a push-pull, but that was the last word kind of making pesticides and farmers the priority. Vaccines. Kennedy's views on vaccines have been controversial to say the least.

Where does that all fit in in this report? It doesn't come up all that much in this report, but two instances, as you mentioned. One, vaccine schedules are mentioned in general as something that they want to make sure are appropriate and as good as they can be. So we watch that to see if they're proposing changes down the road. The other, the idea of vaccine injuries, something that they will investigate. There is not data right now showing that vaccine injuries are anything more. than rare, but it is something that will watch. Kennedy says he wants to make it easier for

doctors to submit data. And lastly, Lisa, you asked the secretary about something not in this report, and that's firearms in kids' health. What did he say? I think that might have surprised him, because during this news conference, it was brought up by one of the commissioners that suicide is a leading cause of death, especially for teenagers, but there's no mention of that or firearms in the report. I asked Kennedy about this, and he obviously did want to talk about it. he said it's a complicated issue. He said he is pushing for studies, and NIH will do studies about whether, for example, mass shootings are related to use of antidepressants among young people. There's no evidence of that right now. And those in the public health

realm say it's a mistake to focus on those kinds of things than other underlying causes or even the possessions of firearms. But this is the power of the office. Kennedy is the HHS Secretary. That is what he's looking at. Lisa Desjardin. Thank you so much for this reporting. We appreciate it. You're welcome. And for a deeper dive now on the implications of the Maha report on our food system, we turn now to one of the nation's foremost food policy experts. That is Professor Emerita at New York University, Marian Nessel.

Welcome back to the News Hour. Glad to be here. All right. So now that this final report is out, what did it get right? And where does it fall short? Well, first of all, it was a big surprise because I keep thinking I've seen this before. it looks exactly like the report that Michelle Obama's task force reported in 2010. A lot of this is right.

It's a report about intentions. It wants to make America's kids healthier again. It talks about color additives and closing the generally recognized the safe loophole, which are the two things that this administration has done so far, that look like they're making real progress. And it talks about a lot of other things in very general terms. It's a report about intentions.

It's not about actions. And what you wonder is how on earth are they going to do these things? What do they plan to do? The word regulation is only mentioned once in the context of the generally recognizes a safe loophole. They talk about really important

issues like stopping marketing to children, but they do that in, we're going to investigate, we're going to explore, we're going to think about, we're going to maybe do something about food industry marketing of junk foods to kids, which I think would really make a big difference. And what's disappointing about it is that the things that would make a big difference aren't here. Like what? They're either not mentioned. well the business about pesticides for example you know they they really have pushed they have backed off on a lot of the things they were saying about pesticides there's nothing here about regulating marketing to children there's nothing here about getting ultra-processed foods

out of schools or anywhere else there's nothing regulatory in this it's all intentional we're going to, it's about research. Let's do more research. And I want to see action. What are they going to do? I want to know that. They haven't said. We know that the secretary has leaned on debunked science in his anti-vaccine claims. How reliable is this report's data in your view? Well, there's no data in this report. This is an intentional report. This is what we're going to do. The data were given in the first report. and, you know, some of the data made sense, and some of it was hallucinated, so it's hard to say. But they keep talking about gold standard research, and my understanding of gold standard research is

these are long-term clinical trials with large numbers of people that take absolutely forever. So it's hard to know how that's going to happen when the research enterprise has been decimated and so many people have lost their jobs, and we don't really have a research enterprise anymore. So it's quite unclear how any of this is going to work. So I hear you say there's no data in this report. There's no process. There's no real mention of a regulatory framework.

But there is this tension between Maha's agenda and MAGA policies. So Kennedy's talking about healthy food access, but SNAP funding, food stamp funding has been cut. He points to the EPA on pesticides. but the administration has gutted its staff and the EPA budget. So how do you see those contradictions complicating Kennedy's ambitions? Well, the best example of that is that they want to promote farm-to-school programs. That was the first program that the Trump administration cut in the Department of Agriculture, a totally win-win program in which farmers gained and schools.

gained and that program is gone. But I understand that Secretary Rollins says it's going to come back. That would be nice. I want to see the action. That's what really counts. Marian Nessel, it's always a pleasure to speak with you. Thank you for your perspectives. Shifting our focus now to a gruesome murder in Charlotte, North Carolina last month that claimed the life of a young Ukrainian refugee and has become a rallying cry for Republicans. They argue Democrats are soft on crime, and they point to the killing to support President Trump's decision to deploy the National Guard in more cities. Our William Brigham has the latest. The security camera video from the Charlotte light rail system is very hard to watch, and we're not going to show it in full. 23-year-old Irina Zerutska boards a train after work and takes a seat.

Behind her in the red hoodie is to Carlos Brown Jr., who authorities say was homeless and mentally ill. Brown opens a pocket knife, gets up, and stabs Zerutska in the neck. She had fled Ukraine after Russia's invasion and settled in North Carolina. She died on the spot. Brown was charged in federal court today. According to authorities, he had previously spent. spent time in prison for robbery, and had repeatedly shown troubling erratic behavior, from attacking and biting his sister to calling police saying he was being controlled by some

man-made substance. His mother told local news that he was schizophrenic. This horrible crime has now been seized on by Republicans to depict Democratic-run cities like Charlotte as being plagued by widespread violence and mayhem. Charlotte's police say violent crime so far this year is down 25% compared to last year. Many Republicans, all the way up to the president, have blamed Democrats for this murder. President Trump posted this today. For far too long,

Americans have been forced to put up with Democrat-run cities that set loose savage, bloodthirsty criminals to prey on innocent people. For more on this case, we are joined by writer Elisa Roth. She's author of the book, Insane, America's criminal treatment of mental illness.

Elisa, thank you so much for being here. We should say at the outset that the data show that people suffering from mental illness are much more likely to be victims of violence than perpetrators of it. But when a case like this occurs, where the reverse happens, what is your initial reaction? My initial reaction is that this is a tremendous tragedy, and it's a tragedy for everybody involved. obviously a terrible, terrible tragedy for Ms. Zurutska and her family. It's also a tragedy for Mr. Brown. He's clearly a person who's in desperate need of help. He's a person who knew he needed help. He called the police asking for help, and he didn't get it. And so it's really a tragedy all

around. I mean, his life trajectory, as far as we know it, shows that he repeatedly interacted with the police, with the courts, with hospitals. And despite showing increasingly erratic and troubling behavior, the system, quote-unquote, kept putting him back out on the street. How common is his example in our society? Unfortunately, it's very, very common. People, a person with mental illness will get arrested, often for a low-level crime, often for a crime of survival. So they might be, as Mr. Brown was homeless, so you get arrested for sleeping on the street or for stealing food. They get arrested, they get taken to jail, they may even serve some small amount of jail time, get, if they're lucky, a little bit of mental health care in jail or in prison, if things get that far.

And then they're released because they've done their time. but we haven't addressed any of the underlying problems, whether that's the mental illness or whether it's the other societal issues of homelessness and not having enough food and all these things. And, of course, often all those things go together complicating it. I mean, the Republican Party writ large right now is trying to portray this as this is evidence of democratic policies. The Democrats, want to coddle people like Mr. Brown rather than lock him up or to really take care of him. How fair is that characterization?

I think the real question is what works. We know that putting people with mental illness into the criminal justice system, so into jail or into prison, doesn't help. They're getting at best minimal mental health care. They're often coming out of jail or prison in work. shape than they went in even. And it's, again, not solving the underlying problem. So I don't think it's even a question of, are we being too nice? We're doing something that's very, very expensive, very, very difficult for everybody involved, and we're not making anything any better. There are a growing number of cities and states that faced with incidents like this are

turning to what's called involuntary commitment, where a judge, basically says you need mental health care whether you want it or not and forces you into some kind of a facility. How good of a solution is that? You know, in the very short term, it can be useful. One of the many complicating factors of mental illness is that it is obviously a disease of the brain, which means that sometimes a person with mental illness won't realize they're sick or they won't realize how sick they are. And so sometimes somebody else, needs to step in and say, you need to go to the hospital. You need to get better. But we obviously also don't want a society where we're locking people up indefinitely because they have mental

illness. And so there needs to be a larger system, a larger mental health care system that's actually dealing with the underlying problems and that's helping continue that mental health care once the person is released from that involuntary commitment. All right, that is journalist Elisa Roth, author of Insane, America's Criminal Treatment of Mental Illness. Alisa, thank you so much for being here. You're welcome. Mysteries and codes, religious rights, and scientific formulas. That's the world of Dan Brown's thrillers.

Most famously, the Da Vinci Code. And now there's a new one, The Secret of Secrets Out Today. Secrets and Codes are also part of Brown's own life, as senior arts correspondent Jeffrey Brown discovered during a visit to the author's home in New Hampshire for our arts and culture series, Canvas. This I call the Fortress of Gratitude. Fortress of Gratitude?

It's one copy of all my books from around the world. A dark ground library with its own secrets. This is my favorite of the seven secret passageways in the house. hiding memorabilia. That's the first book I wrote at age five. The giraffe, the pig, and the pants on fire. It's a thriller. Over here, we have what's called an Inukshuk.

In the garden, a looming stone presence. Nookshoek. In nookshok. It is an Inuit symbol of protection. In the hallway, another hidden door. So this here is the Wild Symphony Room. Into a room filled with music and stuffed animals. Related to a children's book titled Wild Symphony.

All right, now, Dan, we've only been together a short time, but you are clearly a quirky, what's the right word? Curky guy. Accentric? Odd? Yeah? Cheeky? But they're all true.

Yeah. Also true, no secret here. Dan Brown is a phenomenally successful author, with more than 250 million books in print translated into 56 languages. And his new thriller, he promises, is the biggest twistiest yet, nothing less than the secret of secrets. You know what? It's no secret that I like to write about big topics. You know, the bloodline of Jesus Christ, artificial intelligence, world population. But I've always felt there's one topic

that is bigger than all of them. And it relates to human consciousness. That lends through which we experience reality, we experience ourselves. And the tricky thing about writing out of consciousness is it's a very ethereal topic. It's kind of squishy. So the challenge, and this book took quite a bit of time to write, the challenge was turning this ethereal topic into a fast-paced thriller. All the Dan Brown hallmarks are here, including the hero. And thereby define ourselves. How do we penetrate years?

Harvard symbolologist Robert Langdon, played by Tom Hanks in three films made from Brown's novels. This time he's in love with noetic scientist Catherine Solomon, whose bold new theory of human consciousness threatens to upend centuries of science and understanding, and has unhappy people threatened. her. There's the magical setting, Prague, an historical home to the occult. A mythological figure, the gollum, from Jewish mysticism. Murder, mayhem, all mixed with those trademark Dan Brown digressions

that expound on an ancient cult or linguistic code or scientific theory that will unlock a mystery and, not incidentally, offer his hero another escape. But every detail, Brown insists, is based on something real, and he's done the research to prove it. I want the reader to know that when Robert Langdon is talking about an experiment that proves precognition is a reality. I want the reader to know, no, this really happened, and here's the date it happened, and here's the scientist that did it. I think it makes the book relevant and exciting.

You feel that a thriller should teach something? Not all thrillers need to teach. And that's what I like to do. Because I like to learn, and I think a lot of readers like to learn, I like to create thrillers that teach. Ideally, if I've done my job, you don't notice that is teaching. You turn a page and say, I had no idea. That's fascinating.

Really? That's true? Amazing. I'll research that later because at the moment I have to get Langdon, you know, he's hanging by his fingernails somewhere. And so you read the next page to find out what happens to the characters. That's why we read fiction. But along that way, it's peppered with what I consider shocking information,

whether it's about Prague or about science or about history. And that's what's so fun about writing these books is how much I learned. In fact, Brown's original goal was music. He grew up near where he lives today. His father was a math teacher at Phillips Exeter Academy. his mother, an accomplished church organist. After college, he moved to L.A. to try to make it as a singer-songwriter. The record came out, and it tanked.

It sold about 12 copies. And I've heard it recently, and there's a reason it sold 12 copies. Part of it was timing. Part of it was just wasn't a great record. He then turned to his other love, writing. Three novels sold poorly. But you had known failure. You know, I had known only failure.

You had known only failure. Yeah. Then in 2003 came the Da Vinci Code. So I'm in Portland starting my tour for the Da Vinci Code. And what can only be called overnight success, which Brown learned of through a fax from his editor. And after my talk, I walked into the lobby of this hotel. And the guy behind the desk said, Mr. Brown, we have a fax for you. This is back in the age of faxes.

Right. And this is what he handed me. Dan number one. Yeah. The rest, including controversy and criticism from the Catholic Church over his depiction of Jesus' life was a pop culture phenomenon, parody included. You know, somebody sent me this, the Pope saying, you were right. Pope Benedict admits to Dan Brown, you were right.

And along with the movies and sudden sales of those early books, as well as the new ones, has allowed Dan Brown his quirky life. life. I do a lot of writing out here. A lot of writing? A lot of writing. I'll have a dictaphone and just walk this labyrinth. The secret of secrets took Brown six years to research and write. Much of it done in a room up another narrow winding stairway. There's no formula for thriller writing, he says, but there are rules. For example, keeping all those intricate plot lines in your head? You don't need to know it all every day. So that's the first thing. Really, you're creating a kind of like a scaffolding on which to hang all of this information.

Is it true that you start at the ending? Yes. You absolutely must know the ending of a thriller before you start it. Some of the details and intricate plotting in the middle may not be what you started with, but the foundation is the same. You know who the bad guy is. You know how he gets his just desserts. You know all that. You know the twist.

But do you go down a lot of paths that you just say, that you just say, though, this isn't working? Yeah, thanks for bringing that up. Yes, I do. Yeah, listen, for every, this is a 200,000 word novel. I easily wrote a million words, 800,000 of which disappeared. Of course, not everyone will love the results. Over the years, some critics have not so gently skewered the Dan Brown style.

He's used to it, sort of. What I do, I do very intentionally, specifically, and you either love it, There's not a lot of middle ground. And that took some getting used to also. You know what I had? It did. Of course it did. I would love to tell you that success makes me immune.

No, it still hurts. You wish everybody loved what you do. They don't. And when they tell you how they really feel, yeah, it hurts. It just does. And that's just, it's the nature of being a creative person for a living. You put it out in the world. And somebody told me once, another very successful author said,

when you put a book out, it's like taking a hot air balloon with a target on it. floating it up, handing everybody a gun and saying, what do you think? And that's what it feels like. On September night, that's what it will feel like when the book comes out. It's certainly a very big balloon. The first printing of The Secret of Secrets, one and a half million copies. For the PBS News Hour, I'm Jeffrey Brown in New Hampshire. And that's the news hour for tonight. I'm Jeff Bennett. For all of us here at the PBS NewsHour, thanks for spending part of your evening with us.