Perfect Day with Jessica Knappett - EP19: Jameela Jamil

Episode Date: November 28, 2024

The sensational Jameela Jamil joins Jess on the podcast this week, in a landmark episode where we find our first ever relaxed woman. The pair talk about this, of course. They also discuss Jameela’s love of cleaning, her hatred of anything wet, hot or velvety, songs she’s had written about her, her love of chasing squirrels, her absolutely iconic morning routine, and how Jameela tries to make every day perfect. Like and subscribe for brand-new episodes every Thursday. Follow us on Instagram @perfectdaycast And, why not get in touch? Email us at [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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All right then. I saw Elton John at a buffet. Do you know what I mean? Hello, Perfect Dayers. I'm Jessica Knappett and you are just jealous. Yeah, and you are going to be jealous actually because I'm warning you. Today's guest has a life which appears to be a succession of back-to-back Perfect Days and it just sounds really, really nice.

And who is this perfect woman? I hear you cry. Well, it's the perfect woman, Jamila Jamil, of course, who not only is one of the most beautiful women to ever exist, she's also so funny and smart and thoughtful and crucially, as we'll find out, the only genuinely relaxed woman I've ever met. Guys, she's so relaxed. We talk about this, of course, and how it's possible to be so relaxed, and how I can be more of a relaxed woman. We talk about her love of cleaning, her two dogs, texture, songs she's had written about her, her love of chasing

squirrels, her absolutely iconic morning routine, and we talk about how she tries to make every day perfect. Plus I assume Jamila has been to Georgia Tazda. Spoiler alert, she hasn't. This is Jamila Jamil's perfect day. Oh, yeah, yeah, just want to make sure my tits aren't showing. Well, I think I say my tits for when I need people to subscribe to my sub stack. Yeah. Or whack them out at the end when we talk about it. I would get them out, but unfortunately they are un-get-outable. Have to actually have bits would get them out but unfortunately they are un-get-out-able. You have to actually have bits to get them out. I remember you describing you had a very good turn of phrase

which was barely their tits. Did I? Yeah, you said that to me once. You were describing your own and that was inaccurate but it was a nice turn of phrase. I wasn't talking about my tits, no, I would have been talking about my arse. I have a belly there arse. My breasts have always been front and centre but my arse is non-existent. That's why I don't do body trends because no arse is now back in. So it's like implants in, implants out, implants in, implants out. So I just sort of stay the same and then my body just comes in and out of fashion. Yeah, when I was younger and I had no tits and big, you know, I still have small boobs and a wide hip. You've got a wonderful, wonderful body.

I thought I need to go back to the Roman Empire or the Greek era where my body is, they love, they would love my body in the ancient Greece. But you don't need to go all the way there. Ancient Greece. You could just get on a Lufthansa to like actual Greece now and they still love that. What? Small tits and wide hips? Yeah.

Love a hip. Do you know what I was thinking though? I was looking at those... All those sort of old paintings. Where's all their hair? What cubes? Nobody has... Nobody has like armpit hair, do they, in...

When you see sort of... I've got to know, I've never noticed. I know that. I've never noticed. I've never noticed. I've never noticed. I've never noticed. I've never noticed. hair. Nobody has armpit hair do they? I don't know if they have pubes either but the reclining image. Gotta cover the disgusting vagina obviously. Yeah absolute filthy hairy beast but they but when you see a reclining Greek or Roman nude they don't have hairy armpits do they? I don't remember they definitely don't have them on the statues but that's also a lot to ask. But does that mean they were shaving? I just it was something that occurred to me the other day. I reckon they take it out.

I reckon. How do you feel about body hair? I sort of don't really give a shit either way. I'm just sort of like in the winter I like it in the summer I don't. Yeah. I'm quite like a sort of like a hound in that way. I know people who regret having got rid of all of it like laser style. Oh yeah I would never do that. I would never do that. I've also always left my arsehole alone. I've left her alone. I've left her alone. Hi Jamila Jamil.

Hello, how are you? Welcome to Perfect Day and thank you for being here. Just tell me how you are and what you've been up to, please. What have I been up to? I am... Before we started, you said you've been cunting around. I have been cunting around. I wasn't going to say am... Before we started, you said you'd been cutting around. I have been cutting around. Yeah, I wasn't going to say that because now we're being proper.

You've lowered the tone. Yeah, yeah. So technically you lowered the tone. Yeah, no, I lowered the tone. I lowered the tone. But you don't have to admit to cutting around if you don't want to. For like two years, I've just sort of decided to have loads of fun and stop working. By which, when you say stop working, do you mean be an incredible activist, appear on the front cover of Vogue, change the conversation on female body image? I still do all of that. But no, I just mean that I've decided to spend as much time with

my friends and my dogs, who are also my friends, and my boyfriend as possible. Because I think the world might be ending. So now it's like, shit, I don't know if I've been having as much fun as I should have. Because I'm on this fucking hamster wheel to, you know, assholeville. Yeah. And I don't think I wanted to participate so much anymore. So about two years, I just suddenly went, fuck off everyone. And now I just do what I want to do. And so that's kind of how I balance out my life. But I'm only now doing things that I, that A, that intellectually stimulate me, but B, mean that I can spend more time with my dogs.

That's the priority. Which I tried to bring here. Yeah, I'm really sorry about that, by the way. Obviously, producer Lucy and I have no issue with dogs and would actively encourage a dog to be present at every given moment. The building, unfortunately, is a dog-free zone, Apart from when they're like, me in this morning, wait. That didn't get the, that got just a smile because I don't think Jameela Jameel approves of women making jokes that undermine their looks. I just, I totally did.

No, no, no, no. I think I was still fuming that the dogs weren't allowed in. I think I was still processing that. Why is it? You can take the piss out of the way that you look. Oh, I think you're gorge. Right, thank you. But you can say whatever it is that you feel.

But Catherine Ryan is so sick of my encouraging shit. I've been at dinners before where she'll say something self-deprecating about the way that she looks. And before I even have a chance to look up, she'll go, oh, I know, I weigh, I weigh, I weigh. Which is referring to my I weigh movement that is trying to make women feel better about the way that they exist in this world beyond just thinking about their looks. And so she's just sick of my shit.

Yeah, because you've become a sort of figurehead, obviously, for the body positivity movement, or would you say it's not body positivity? It's not body positivity, that's not my movement, it's more body neutrality. I don't want people to sit there and be like, I love my thighs, I don't want you to think about your thighs, I want you to think about orgasms and cake and laughter and long-term stability. You know, something that I've been talking about a lot lately that's pissing me off is that when it comes to the way that women are encouraged to think about their bodies,

it's like, quick fix, do something now. It doesn't matter about later. Don't worry about later what happens to you when you get osteoporosis or your kidneys don't work or your digestive system doesn't work or you get mental health problems. Don't worry about that, because we're not going to need you then because you won't be fertile and fuckable. So just make sure you do this quick thing now.

It's because they don't need us later. But we're going to be here. We're going to be absolutely fucked from everything that we've done. We want to look after all the dying men, of course. Yes, of course. That's our job later. Yeah. Lucky us. I've been interested lately in the concept of the relaxed woman. Yeah, I mean you're looking right at her.

Am I really? Yeah. Oh my god, okay, so blow my mind. What? Is Jamila Jamil a relaxed woman? Yeah, I don't have children. Okay, children aside though. What do you mean by relax?

Because I think it was something that was going around on social media. Oh, so I probably don't remember. And I'm sorry that I don't remember. God knows what I've actually just admitted to them because I don't know what that means. It's not like it's viral or anything, but it was something that I did initially see it there and I should credit the writer, but I can't remember her name. Basically she said, I know productive women, I know she said, I know productive women, I know successful women, I know busy women, I know stressed women, I do not know relaxed women,

I've never had it modelled to me. And I was like, oh, that's ridiculous, there's got to be, I must know a relaxed woman. And I can't think of a relaxed woman who is like famous. Right. And I can't think of a relaxed woman who is like famous. I would maybe think of someone like Miriam Margulis, someone who like just really doesn't give a shit, but someone who is famously relaxed as a woman. And the only relaxed woman in my life is my seven-year-old daughter. What an icon. She is an absolute icon. Absolute icon. I would say that surely people in our position have the better chance of being relaxed. Because we don't have to have like three jobs and have all the responsibility to someone without this insane amount of privilege.

Yes. So do you think you are a relaxed woman? I consider myself a relaxed woman. Yeah. I think no woman can ever relax in a world that she has to coexist in with men because they are terrifying en masse. Not all men, but just so, so many. And there's no way to know which one's scary and which one isn't because they refuse to wear a sign on their head that says rapist or not rapist. So in that element, I'm not relaxed. Other than that, which only happens for 24 hours of the day. Other than that, I am quite relaxed. I, because I, because I'm old. I think that there are 50, 60, 70, 80, 90 year old women who would be angered by the fact that you're referring to yourself as old. They're also old. When you get to a point where if you die, people are

no longer like, we are not at that stage. We're not at the stage where we die and people say we've had a good inning. I'm not saying people are going to be nonchalant about it. I'm just saying it's no longer going to gather absolute, like abject horror. When does it stop? It's 70s. I think 70s they start saying, they start saying, she had a good run, once you hit 70 they no longer say oh so young. Yeah. 69 they're saying. I think it's 70. They're not saying it at 69, let's be real now. And so young. No. Well she was 69. Yeah. Someone would, that would be an argument in the pub. I think it's more like, ah, such a shame. I don't think anyone's like gone too soon. I think they would say she was still young if it was 69. Okay. That's,

I believe 69 is the cutoff. So we've got, we've still got 50. All right, whatever. All I'm saying is I've been, I've been, I I'm saying is I've been around a long time. You've been around the block. Okay. Enough to know. Yeah. And enough to know that a lot of the things I was stressing about were make believe. And so then I just decided to opt out. I really, really resent the idea that pleasure is supposed to be a privilege rather than a daily right. And so I go out of my way to seek pleasure constantly as if I am a Greek god.

I'm just, it's, I'm trying to achieve a life of lying down with grapes. I'm so happy to hear that. And on that note, I feel like it's a perfect segue because what we could be hearing when we hear your perfect day is your normal day. I really hope that's true. I am such a basic bastard. Great. Let's have, right, Jamila, let's hear your normal day and I really hope that's true. I am such a basic bastard though. Great, let's have them.

Right, Jamila, let's hear your perfect day. Perfect morning. All right. What's your perfect morning? So my perfect morning for the last eight years has been the fact that, because I have been living up until the last few months with two

of my best mates and my boyfriend. Lovely, is that the dream? And these are the two boys that I met when I was 19 and I've known them all throughout my career. So they have gone out of their way to keep me grounded. Okay. By what can only be described as sort of like quite intense emotional hazing. So I've lived with my best mates and James in America for the past eight years, six to eight years. And every morning we have tried to uphold having our coffee in the morning. The boys come into our room and then they jump on our bed. And then we share a ginormous cookie, which to English people is a ginormous

cookie but it's just a normal size cookie in America. And we break it off and we just share it while we drink our coffees and then we gossip for an hour. You do that every day? Yeah. Did you still live with them? During the pandemic it was every single day. For the last few months we haven't been living together because we've all fucked off for different reasons around the world, it was every single day. For the last few months, we haven't been living together because we've all fucked off for different reasons around the world.

But I will bring us back together again. Mark my words. I have a plan to build a commune of all of my favorite funny people and call it Jamilville, which is a cult. It is, James hugely, hugely objects to the name, but I think he just doesn't have the vision yet. But Jamilville is going to happen where then there'll be a, not like a diddy free cough bed,

but like a big bed that everyone can jump onto and have a morning gossip with some sort of a cake and coffee in the morning. I think that everyone wants to live this way and you're actually doing it because actually this morning that you've described is very similar to the morning that people describe on their perfect day. They often wake up in a house full of their friends as opposed to just their family. And we all get, we all get torn away from our friendship groups and you've managed to construct in adulthood, the dream. In elderly. Elderly decrepit.

Yeah. On the verge of being on the way out. Yeah. Life. Is it a house or is it an old people's house? The doll's home. Yeah. Do you think that you'll get back together and then you'll still be living like this into

old age. 100%. You're a family. I really can't stand this idea that we're supposed to just fuck off into spousal living. And I understand that some people just want to live alone and I think that depends on the people that you've chosen to live with you. But I'm very pro-community. I think individualism is a nightmare. I'm very pro-commune vibes whilst also hopefully having our own bathrooms because I will never

share with men. No, and you mustn't. No, and it's a huge, huge privilege to be able to have my own bathroom, but that is the one thing. So it's the only reason I work at all. You and James both have your own bathroom. That is, yes. Not even just your own sink.

I'm sure it's why we are together after 10 years is that we have separate bathrooms. On with your perfect morning please. So does it start the way that it normally starts? Yeah. And if the boys aren't there, it's me and James, it's some sort of a cake or pastry with coffee. The dogs jump in the bed with us. We all have a massive cuddle.

How many dogs have you got? We've got two doodle mutts. They look like tiny pieces of popcorn chicken. They're unbelievable. And then James and I just have a massive, massive gossip. And a slag off. I thought you were going to say. You know?

Yeah. Yeah. No, not in the morning. Not in the morning. No. No, you haven't used both your bathrooms yet. Exactly. Can't be doing that in the morning. Not in the morning. No. You haven't used both your bathrooms yet. Yeah, exactly. Can't be doing that in the morning.

Oh, I love a goss. Love a goss. Ideally, what are you gossing about? Everything and everyone. He wrote a line in one of his songs that is just like, shows us what truly horrible people we are, where he, it was a beautiful love song about us. And then the best line of it, I feel, and the line that people seem to love to sing at live shows, because it clearly resonates, because we all are

horrible people, is, let's go home and talk shit about everybody. Let's go home, finally. And it's just, it's just a little, it's just a little gossip. It's also celebrity gossip. We like going through TikTok. We like seeing what everyone's up to. Like a bit of Daily Mail online. A bit of demoir. Perhaps. A bit of demoir. See who's gone to which restaurant, who's holding how's work. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, no, I'm all for it. Praying to fucking God we're not in it, but loving everyone else being invaded. Do you get invaded? I do a bit, but it's hard in LA because no one leaves the fucking house. So I'm sort of fine. I think if I was living in, whenever I go to New York, it happens. But whenever I'm in LA, no one gives a shit. So you're not there anymore.

You're back in London. I'm back in London, yeah. And loving it. And having a lovely lovely Do you find it easier to be Jamila Jamil relaxed woman in London? Yeah, I sort of feel that way everywhere now, I think it was easier in LA because No one knows who I am or cares Because they're like actual a-listers are walking around in the supermarket.

I think people do know and care but they try to be too cool and pretend that's not the woman from the good place. Maybe, but I also think that in LA specifically that is just the culture. It's so normal to see like Cameron Diaz, Jack Nicholson and I saw Elton John at a buffet. Do you know what I mean? Was he helping himself? No. Or was someone, was David? Someone else's, yeah. David had two plates. But you know, it's just normal. It was a nice buffet,

but it was a buffet nonetheless. It's just normal. It's part of the culture there. So no one cares about me. But that's quite, but that's nice. Do you enjoy the anonymity? I do. Or is there a little bit of your ego that's like, notice me? No, no, no. I was never, I never planned on being in this industry. I've had a lovely time, but I don't think I was built for this. I was an English teacher who got scouted at a pub. Yeah, for being so fit. For being so fit, that's what happened, wasn't it? I don't think that's what they said, considering, no, and they, they thought I'd be a good replacement for Alexa Chung.

Because they needed another supermodel. They needed another supermodel. That also had a personality. But back then my looks were not considered a massive, I'm sure that they played into the whole kind of like, of course there's like an element of pretty privilege and blah blah blah that gets you into T4, but also it's been so funny to watch what was back then considered not the beauty standard to now become more of a beauty standard. Like back then when magazines would airbrush me they would change my nose, they would make my skin lighter, they would make my lips smaller, they would make my eye

colour lighter and so I and they would change the shape of my body to look more like a white woman's body like a sort of thin petite white girl's body so I totally accept the kind of pretty privileged element of that but also it's been so weird to now watch white women especially want more tanned skin want slanted eyes want bigger lips what bigger bums like bigger hips everything so it's just been bigger bums, like bigger hips, everything. So it's just been, it's just a funny one to be in the centre of it and to watch that conversation change around your own kind of face and body. But anyway, I didn't, I think I prefer anonymity because I'm very strange. I think when I was putting on, I don't know if you feel this way, but when I was putting on like a bravado and a front and I was very performative, even around the time

that you and I would have first met, I feel like I was much more like in your face. I think I was, I was sort of putting on a mask. And so that makes fame really confronting because then when people see you out and about, and you're being yourself and you're being normal and low key, suddenly you have to put the mask back on and start performing again. And now there's no gap between who I project publicly and who I actually am. And that's nice. Yeah. Even if it's a bit disappointing. No, but so do you think the person that you are on social media in magazines, that is exactly the same person now as you are at home

on the bed. Not whichever wanker I was pretending to be 10 years ago. But now. But what is the difference? What's the big difference? What's the big change? I'm just not people pleasing anymore. Right. I think now I'm just a bit more frank and a bit more ready to be disapproved of or disliked. And that's just been very liberating. And I think that's also what contributes to being the relaxed woman is that I've unburdened myself of feeling this need to, I've unburdened myself with the fear of disappointing people, I will inevitably disappoint people and that's fine. How did you do that? How?

I don't know if it's something you can download into your own brain or into someone else's, but one thing I would say is that at least something that I hope people learn from, if they do happen to pay any attention to me at all online, is that I have been dragged by my fucking pubes across the internet again and again and again. All right? I have been I have been fucking cremated publicly in the media again and again. I've been doing this shit for 16 years and I've just been raked across the coals and I'm still here and I'm fucking fine. And my life is lovely and I am loved by a sweet, kind, amazing man and I've got great friends and great dogs and I am incredibly relaxed. And so it taught me that this idea

that women especially are socialized with, that our entire value lies in how pleasing we are to other people via our service or our aesthetic, our ability to look young forever, all of these different things. It's horse shit. And that actually, actually there is a long, wonderful and full life beyond everyone's approval of you. I used to be so worried that people would find me intimidating. I was like, oh god, I don't want anyone to find me. I love it. Lean in. Be fucking scary. It's fantastic. Were you ever worried that people would find you intimidating? I was worried. I was worried because I was sort of intimidating against my, in spite of myself, you know. I used to like worry and I would try to make myself smaller and you know in rooms of men I would try not to be too funny or too smart or too opinionated. I think now I'm like be afraid

Yeah, I enjoy that. It's way more fun. Yeah, it does. It does seem like you're having a lot of fun I am having so much fun Do I sound horribly smug? I'm so sorry. You don't sound- Also I don't care if I do. And like after my worst year of everyone dogpiling me, I got Marvel and then I did covers of Vogue and I did all sorts of other shit.

And I was like, everyone made me feel like my life would be over and that I wouldn't have any friends anymore and I wouldn't have love in my life anymore. That is the sort of, it's this insidious myth that we plant in girls' brains that it's like everyone's going to leave you if you tell the truth. And actually it's just, you do lose some people sometimes, but it's also an extraordinary magnifying glass onto your friendship circle, onto your life as to who and what matters. And I really learned that. And I came out of it with this like complete certainty of who my people are and what my values actually are and what I'm prepared to lose to be myself.

And that's everything. And so that's, and I would just, I would rather, I would rather move in my own way authentically than deal with the depression that I think comes from repressing who you really are. And that voice is easier to silence when you're younger because you're so overwhelmed, because you're taking in the world for the first time. But as you get older it becomes harder and harder to stomach that feeling of suppressing who you really are, because you really start to know who you are. So it really feels like a betrayal to yourself and I think that was the cause of what I thought was depression, but was actually repression.

Yes, I love this! Sorry, but yeah, this is not really about my perfect morning. I was just going to say, so you're on the bed. I'm on the bed. You're on the bed with James. I'm on the bed. We're having just a goss, you know, we're also just telling each other funny stories, humiliating stories, and it's just this incredibly funny, fun dopamine,

like this dopamine is coming at you from every fucking angle, whether it's the cake or it's the coffee or it's the dogs or it's the gossip or it's the laughter. And so it's such an empowering way to start the day because it like you've already won everything else now on top of this is just cake. And so that to me is that it's the most important time in the morning, even if James or I have to get up at three o'clock in the morning for work, you still do it. We still do it. The other one will just get up at three in the morning. We will not miss coffee. Missing coffee with each other is like an emergency. The other one can't believe it. If one of us has had the coffee without the other one, it's a huge betrayal.

My husband hates to stay in bed in the morning. He hates it. Really? Is he just up and off? Straight up, straight out. If I said to him... Can we stay and chat for an hour? Can we stay and chat? Because I will every now and again, I'll beg him to bring me a cup of tea, but I have to be ill. Why? Because this is insane. Who wouldn't want to hang out with you horizontally forever? Thank you. Or my children do. My children all get in bed with me, but that's because we've got a TV in our room and they're just, they'll cuddle up to me until I put the TV on. Anyway, have you got any more to add to your perfect morning, Jamila? Is that the

whole thing? No, that's really it. I was so tempted to come in here and be like, I like to have an ice bath at four o'clock in the morning and then I want to go to the gym for three hours. Do you have any weird fads that you're into? Any strange sort of routines or habits or anything like that? Strange routines and habits. Like a sort of ice bath type territory? Absolutely not. No, no, no. I'm very averse to any kind of discomfort at all whatsoever.

What's your exercise situation? Just a gentle walk kind of thing? It's gentle walking. It is gentle walking the dogs and running around the park. And I've tried to really, and we can get into this in my perfect afternoon, but I've really tried to invest in their hobbies. So, you know, like I'm on high alert for squirrels in the park and stuff. It's quite intense if anyone's ever seen me in any of the London parks. I am hanging with the dogs. We are as one. When they go off leash, we're all off leash and we're all running around and I'm barking.

Really? I'm barking. Because you are trying to get involved in the squirrel catching. Because I just feel like they have to be such a big part of my life. They have to come and participate in the things that I do. So I have to also meet them halfway and participate in the things that I do. So I have to also meet them halfway and participate in the things that they care about, you know what I mean? If they're watching out the window, I'm watching out the window. I mean, very little because normally

I'm busy being a dog, I'm not documenting it, but I'll see if I can get you some. I really would like some body cam footage of this actually. Yeah, one time, there is footage of me one time dressing up as a dog to go and do this with them. What? I can send you for your social media if you want. Why did you dress up as a dog? And at one point when they peed on the tree, I didn't actually pee on the tree but I mimicked it. But you cocked a leg.

You cocked a leg, didn't you? Yeah, yeah, because I'm, you know, I'm not a total bastard. But yeah, it's that and then it's straight into work after I'm up and out and ready. That's your normal morning or is that your perfect morning straight to work? Oh no, no, no, sorry, that's that and then it's straight into work after I'm up and out and ready. That's your normal morning or is that your perfect morning is straight to work? Oh no, no, no, sorry that's my normal morning. My perfect morning is no work. But your normal morning when you say straight to work, do you mean you're off to I way, I way, I way?

I way, I way, I way. Yeah, I'm off to get on my phone and shout at the Kardashians. No, I'm joking. What do you do? What do you do? No, but what do you do? No, I do all sorts of different things. Is there an office to go to? No, there's no office to go to. No, I do all sorts of different things.

Is there an office to go to? No, there's no office to go to. No, office is bed. I'll do all my writing from my bed. I'm writing a book at the moment. I'm writing it from my bed. I do my podcast largely from my bed. I spend 70% of my life lying down. Perfect. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so what's your perfect afternoon then? My perfect afternoon is would be, my perfect afternoon would be walking around something that's kind of like in Target, which is like Argos. So like a warehouse type situation. Why is this bad? No, I just think it's lovely. It's like Argos where they've got everything that you could ever imagine you could ever need or not need, but now you need it because you know it exists.

But they also even have food. The ones I've been to in LA, like even have food. They have a food bit. They've got amazing ice cream. I don't think it's like Argos. I think because Argos is... I don't think you've been to an Argos recently. No, no. I mean, Argos is shit now because they won't let you see anything.

It's all really virtual. Yeah, and you can't flip through the catalog like you used to. Can you not? Yeah, it's all a screen and it's basically just a self- What are the elderly supposed to do? Like me? No, but like what are the actual elderly supposed to do? 40 plus. Right, well, Argos used to be fucking amazing.

Yeah, okay. I think Target's more like, it's like an as- it's like the not food bit of Asda. I haven't been. Right. No, of course you haven't. That's stupid. Sorry, I'm a movie star, right? I'm just asking Jamila Jamil to relate. What is an Asda?

Wink, what is it? No, but seriously, what is it? No, I haven't been to an Asda in ages. Okay, so yeah, I'm trying to explain Target because our target is not a food. I'm trying to explain Target because our target is not a food. I'm trying to explain Target because our target is not a food. I'm trying to explain Target because our target is not a food. I'm trying to explain Target because our target is not a food.

I'm trying to explain Target because our target is not a food. I'm trying to explain Target because our target is not a food. I'm trying to explain Target because our target is not a food. I'm trying to explain Target because our target is not a food. I'm trying to explain Target because our target is not a food. I'm trying to explain Target because our target is not a food. I'm trying to explain Target because our target is it? No, I haven't been to an Aspen A. Okay, so yeah, I'm trying to explain Target because our Target audience is not Target. No, exactly. That's why I said Argos, babes. And whether it's food, whether it's different types of fucking things to put your pictures up in, it's different towels and different textures of towels. They have great dog treats.

I like taking the dogs around and letting them choose their own toy. Do you ever do that? No, I don't have a dog. No, I do that even though I don't have a dog. It's such a great, what, like a sort of park pedo. You're just taking someone's dog. That looks fun. Dog toys actually do look amazing. They look amazing, but I like giving them the autonomy to choose their own toy. So you've gone round Target, you've bought yourself some dog treats. I really want to take my fucking time, I want to analyse every single angle. I need to know all these different things that I have and I don't have all the different board games that I didn't know existed. But this is one of my favourite things to do. There were these pictures of like, who was it, Beyonce in Target and people were were really surprised and I was like, why is everyone so surprised?

It's the greatest place on earth. When I was asked, when I was doing that show, The Good Place, and everyone was like, what's your idea of heaven? It's Target. It's obviously Target. I don't want to be in Target. Do you want a massage? Do you like all of that?

I can't bear that. I don't want anyone to fucking touch me other than James. I'm very, very lucky that I get offered sometimes free massages or free facials and I've always said no because I don't like, please don't touch me. No, I want to pay a stranger to touch me. I don't want anything to do with that. I don't like any kind of- I don't know what's weird about that, but I want to pay a stranger to touch me. No, there's nothing weird about it. It's lovely. It's lovely. But any kind of a steam sauna, sweating with other people, a towel, all of it kills me. I can't bear it. I can't bear

it. What do you not like about it? Do you think it's like yucky? It's yucky. I don't know why I said yucky. No, but that is because it's the exact word. It's yucky. It's yucky. I mean, it's yucky. It's yucky. I don't know why it's so yucky. No, but that is because it's the exact word. It's yucky. It's yucky and it's smelly. Don't want anything to do with it. But it's not it. They're not all smelly. They're not all smelly. You're describing a spa. You don't want to go to a spa. Yeah, I remember like once for someone's birthday I was dragged to go to a spa where they did

some sort of detox thing where they wrap you up like you're a piece of sushi. Do you know what I mean? Yes, please. They rub you and all this wet. I can't bear anything wet. I can't bear it. I never moisturize. My skin feels like Gandhi's asshole.

Like I just can't, I just can't bear it. I can't bear it. Do you have like sensation stuff that you have? Yeah, really severe sensation stuff, like velvet. It makes me feel like I've got no teeth. It's really bad. You'd hate my house. Oh my god, I already hate your house, just thinking about it. I can't bear it. I love texture. I can't bear texture. And now I literally feel that my teeth have gone tough. So what else? I have to remind myself that my teeth are solid. Oh my god. This is quite extreme. I don't like anything slimy. To have sex, the aircon has to be at like, you know, Madagascar, like the sort of snow. Dry, arid, you have to be dried out.

Because you must be really icked out by sex. Freezing. It has to be freezing. But there's quite a lot of wet. You have to feel like the end scene of Titanic, like you're fucking in the end scene of Titanic, but without the water. Right, I was going to say, there's quite a lot of water in the water. If we were on the freezing cold ledge,

that there was room for two people on. The iceberg. Yeah. I think you need the iceberg. Yeah. Yeah. So I need, like, I just need, I just... So no wet, no velvet, no heat. Nuts. But Target, lovely. Everything's solid, everything's metal.

All these gadgets. I'm a sucker for anything non-stick. Although I've learned that that's hugely cancerous. So that's a big problem. All the different types of air fryers. Like all of it. I just live for it. I'm really dull. Air fryers. I cannot stand. No, I mean, I've never used one. I just like looking at them. Really? So this is all window shopping. You don't want to buy any of this stuff apart from the dog treats. No, I just want to see what's out there. I've always been like this since I was like two years old.

I've been obsessed. I just want to know what my options are and I want to see all the innovative things that people have come up with for our convenience. But Target's got like spider catches, do you know what I mean? Where it's like you can peacefully catch the spider. Really? Yeah, so that it's got like a little, it's got a latch and then you can like, so you don't have to go near it, it's a long stick with a latch and then you can just, once you've got it, you pop the latch down, spider's safe, let it out. How do you pop the latch down, like that? No, from far away, because it's like, it's like sort of arm's length.

Right. So the spider's in there, it's not getting out, you don't want to kill it, because otherwise you're coming back as a spider and that's real. That's what happens, yeah. So you have to pop the door down. Which religion is that? Which mythology is that? That is Scientology.

Can you imagine? Oh that's interesting. Yeah after I went clear I became a really relaxed woman Jess. No wonder you're so relaxed. Oh my god. So you started sliders. I just love innovation. I hate all bugs. Right. Not a big nature girly. No, okay. So you need one of those long devices to get rid of the spiders. Yeah, what are you doing? Like putting it in your mouth? Like, why are you acting like I'm so... A glass and a postcard. Yeah, but sometimes...

Postcard off the fridge, glass off the top of the... I know, but sometimes the fucking postcard is too wobbly and then they can get out from underneath. That's happened to me before. I'm not taking any risks. Yeah. You've got quite a lot of stuff in your house. I don't have as much as I should because I believe James is throwing it out while I'm sleeping because everything's going missing all of the time and he's got a very good poker face and he's non-confrontational man so I think he's just he's aware that I've got so much nonsense that it's just easier

to throw it away and gaslight me into feeling like I'm sick. Don't you like clearing up? Tidying up? I love tidying. Love, live for tidying. Like organising and sableing and all that sort of stuff. If I could quit this industry and become Marie Kondo's assistant... Do you know what? I think you probably can. I think I will. As soon as I fucking leave here, I'm off. Is that some, is that, is that in your perfect afternoon? Is that

a bit of tidying? No, I, I actually thought about this already and I'm putting it in my perfect evening. Oh my God. Okay. Yeah. So is there anything else after Target? Yes, Target is just any kind of amazing pastry. I went to, you know what, separately of Target, and I know we've spent ages talking about this or we might have wasted it. I could keep going. But I actually recently had my perfect afternoon, but it was incredibly indulgent.

Yes, let's hear it. It's incredibly, incredibly indulgent. More indulgent than going to Target? Much, much worse. Yeah. Okay. I took a friend to Paris for lunch. Should have led with that. And I was like, let's just go. Let's just go jump on the Eurostar and go to lunch at this new restaurant that

looks fantastic. It was called Pink Mama and it was gorgeous inside and they had the most amazing classic French pizza and classic French Argentinian steak. Oh yeah. So traditional. It was the most delicious food and we grabbed a croissant on the way to the queue for the restaurant and then ate it in the queue and then afterwards went out and got some amazing pastries and then went for a lovely walk around Paris and then fucked off back on the Eurostar and so we were home by the evening. Why don't we all do... see the thing is I think that's... No the reason

we don't all do that is because it's not cheap. We can't really afford to just pop on. It's not like just going up to leave. And also it's also like you have to have the life of a overgrown child like me. Although I know a lot of people who do Skyvy Fridays where they just skive off work and do nice things for themselves. Oh, that's fantastic. And I actually think there's a couple of them that would probably consider going to Paris for lunch on a Skyvy Friday.

Amazing. I mean, the friend who did it with me, I think, was committing a Skyvy Monday. I'm so old for a Skyvy Monday. If I had a proper job, I'd be scared. That's how you get your money back. Yeah, 100%. Everyone's doing that. Yeah, apart from when I worked in a video shop where I couldn't take up enough shifts.

I couldn't, I never skied. I fucking loved it there. Why don't you go back there? Because video shops don't exist anymore. Otherwise I fucking would. Honestly, my entire life was pointed at just becoming a manager of a video shop. That's all I wanted.

I lived to take stock. I live for watching videos, five videos a day, five movies a day, I was the happiest I've ever been and also you get to do the most extraordinary people watching, like I used to watch people fall in love right in front of me at the video shop. Do you have a DVD player? No I watch everything on my laptop because I like to be in my bed. Oh, right. Yeah. But do you not feel, considering that you have this nostalgia for the video era, do you not feel like you could just get yourself a little home cinema? I think if I try and bring any more stuff into my flat, Jess, my boyfriend's going to murder me.

This is the problem maybe. Yeah, I'm trying to like, I'm trying to like I'm trying to Fight my battles, you know to choose my battles wisely If you had DVDs you'd have a lot of you'd have some shelves to organize That would be a big problem and I live in a very small flat So that's not going to be possible Because I really want to bring it back. Yeah, have you heard of second? What's it called second screen viewing? Yes Has anything made you want to fucking gouge your eyes out more?

Yeah. It's been going on for a long time. I know, but I didn't realise that this was like official conversations that were happening at studios. People need to know, the people need to know they think you're dumb and incapable of concentrating on anything. Well, we are. But we don't have to be, because we weren't always.

So second screen viewing is basically the networks telling writers to dumb down their plot and make it not be so complicated because people are on their phone scrolling. And so it has to be something that's easy enough for them to be able to follow along in the background. Because the TV screen or the laptop screen in your case is the second screen. It's the second screen.

The first screen is the phone. Yeah. I mean, it is so dystopian that it really... Yeah. But I think a lot of it is not... Well, it is dumbing down, but it's also... It's about it being visually simplified. So it's about the story being told visually, I think so that when you glance up, you can, you know, wait, I mean, it's so, it's, it's so disheartening. No, but it is also just having, but it is having a plot line that is hyper simplified so that people can like listen to it in the background or whatever bullshit they're doing

on their phone. That stresses me out. It's horrible. Yeah. Is there any more? Okay, so we've done Target. Yeah, if I could squeeze in a daytime cinema view, I would. Would you? I fucking love to go to the cinema in the day. It feels really, really naughty. It's so indulgent.

It feels really naughty. It feels like I've bunked off school. Yeah. And now I'm just there breaking all the rules, watching a movie in the daytime. I once went to see a movie at 10 a.m. on my own because I just found out that the person that I had broken up with, I'd made the choice to break up with, was now dating an actual supermodel. No, not a supermodel, sorry, worse. Miss Universe. How do they even know? That's the only-

Hottest woman in the world. Fine. Hottest women in the universe is quite intense. That's quite intense on the ego, isn't it? In the fucking universe. And I went to watch a movie, listen to how much I tried to trigger myself. This is so, oh God, it was a Jennifer Aniston movie, obviously, called Love Happens. Oh, perfect. And I went to see that on my own at 10am. Were you trying to cry? Because sometimes I know that I just need to have a big cry. So I try to cry. I don't know if I was trying to cry, but it was definitely very, like, I went there, I

ordered all of the snacks that they had available to me. And I just sat there binge eating, crying, watching this movie. And then like 10 minutes in, this couple comes in, this young couple comes in, and they've also had the same plan as me, which is no one's going to be there. But they just start making out. They sit right in front of me and they just start making out. Maybe they couldn't see me, but they think maybe that they're alone and they're, they're snogging and snogging and snogging. And now they're starting to like pull at each other's clothes.'s clothes I was like are you fucking kidding me? Like this is the worst possible case scenario. I already feel fucking lonely and now

They're like I love you. I'm so happy. I love you too I'll never leave you. I'm rubbing it in my face and then I can see she's now kissing him like on his neck and his chest And I was like she's gonna suck him off in front of me at 10 a.m I was like I can't like I should be paying more for these tickets or something because this is inappropriate if I get a live sex show. So I had to pop my head over the chair and just be like, hi, so sorry, love everything that's happening. Good for you. But I was like, but I'm worried that you're going to suck on his knob right in front of

me and I was wondering if you could just move at least a few rows behind me so that I don't have to see it. And they both were mortified. They left immediately. Oh they left. Okay thank god. Yeah. Do you think they're still together? Do you like to think about them? I don't. I don't. But I think they are. Is Miss Universe still with your ex-boyfriend? No. There you go then. Yeah, she's never, by the way, he's never got over you. No, I hope he hasn't. I broke up with him. So let's just remember, I'm the villain. I

had no right, no leg to stand on to be bothered by anything. I was insane for that, for even feeling sorry for myself. My perfect evening is a big old dinner party at my house. I don't like restaurants normally in the evening because they put music on and it's very loud. And if you thought my sensory issues were big, wait till you hear about my audio sensitivity. What kind of brain do you have? I think it's broken. I think that's what I'd call it. I've got a broken little brain. It's not broken.

But I'm doing my best. Yeah. Yeah. It's not broken though, is it? I think it is. I think it's Humpty Dumpty and I've patched it back together. All the King's Horses and all the King's Men put Humpty Dumpty's brain back together again. Can you not have music on anywhere or is it just when you're trying to... No, no. And it used to drive people like, oh my god, Radio One was so...

Oh, nice. Are you dating music? Yeah, nightmare. Radio One were so mad at me because you know, you're supposed to speak over the music and I never would. So it would just have to be dead air when I was talking and then I would play the music. Yeah. And so in the car, it's either we listen to music and we sing or we turn the music off and we talk. It cannot be two at the same time. I cannot function at all in that situation. I really, really relate to that. I feel the same way. But then there's a certain type of music that I also need to have when I'm working in order to concentrate. What's that? Cheeky girls.

Cheeky girls, yeah. It's just like instrumental, but I completely relate to that feeling of too much music, too much distraction, but I also hate the silence in... I need something, I need some sort of background. But why are restaurants playing songs with lyrics? Like what's happening here? The fuck is going on? Why? But when it comes to my perfect evening, mine is just to centre ourselves for a second here, Jess. But I think for me, I enjoy the casual nature of everyone just like being on the sofa, not necessarily around a table, but like everyone's got a plate. And if people bring their own food or if we all cook together that's really really fun. Oh nice, what would you cook?

I think any kind of a roast or really Italian food because it's just no one's mad at Italian food and everyone is making the salads and the desserts and the this that and the other and it just feels like a natural conversation starter and then getting onto the couch and making out. No, getting onto the couch and then playing games, a game night. I love games. I love games. What games are you playing? I really like Don't Get Got.

Oh, I don't know Don't Get Got. Don't Get Got is a prank game. It's like a situational game. So you're given all these tasks and you have to fulfill five tasks each and whoever fulfills their five tasks first wins. So you're all carrying on as normal in the night but you've got this... Totally and so everyone's on edge slightly all night because no one wants to get gotten. It's such an amazing game and so... Oh my god I really want to play this. It's also really fun like knowing like targeting everyone being like this would work on them because this is how they're really, like, gullible. Yeah.

When James and I like to go on holidays with our friends, the cards are handed out at the beginning of the holiday. Oh my god. So that across the holiday, you just never know when it's coming. And then, and then- You have no idea. So when someone's fulfilled, then they announce, they announce it. Yeah, yeah. That they're the winner. What do they say? But then everyone else can keep going, but it's just, well they announce it. Yeah, yeah.

That they're the winner. But then everyone else can keep going. What do they say? But it's just, well, they just say, I'm the best and you're all shit. Oh, that's so good. But it's such a fun game because you have no idea where it's coming from. You can never have your guard down. I love this.

And it's the worst feeling when someone gets you. You feel so, so bad. I'm small. And it's the worst feeling when someone gets you. You feel so small. I bet. So foolish. So and under normal, normal sex, what's an evening like for you? Do you have rituals? Do you have like a bedtime routine or anything like that? Do you have to be in bed by a certain time?

No. Do you just lie in bed watching your laptop until it's gone? Until we pass out. Basically our normal routine is we have dinner together, we walk the dogs, we get into bed and we watch telly and then I continuously fall asleep on his chest and then gaslight him that I haven't fallen asleep and he keeps going, have you fallen asleep? And I would rather die than admit I have fallen asleep. This shame that we start carrying at sleepovers when we're about six never ends. You know when you fall asleep at a sleepover and you're like, no, I wasn't.

And you'd like consider it really mortifying to fall asleep. Do you know what I'm talking about? I do know what you're talking about. There's nothing worse than being accused of having fallen asleep as if you are not the master of your own awakeness. And so I still have that terrible shame. And it's crazy to be 38 and to not be like, Oh, yeah, you're right. I did fall asleep. Sorry, it must be really annoying for you. Maybe I'll just roll over and like, actually go to bed.

Yeah, I can't I can no longer. Because you don't like to go to sleep. You don't like the feeling of like, the abrupt end of that because I hate I hate it hate I hate it when my husband falls asleep First I can't bear that and he always falls asleep first. He's a son of a bitch He finds sleep so easy and I find sleep so difficult And I honestly I really envy him and I I don't even know if it's that I want to sleep better But I think I'm actually so petty. I just want him to sleep worse, but But he's so

He's so desperate for me to just fucking sleep that he wrote a lullaby once for me. Oh my god, stop. Has it been released? It's released, yeah. Which one is it? It's called Lullaby for My Insomniac. It's a very cryptic title. Stop.

So I don't know how you're going to find it. Aww. But yeah, he bought me all these different like sleep masks, knowing that I'm very funny about texture. So we got like eight different kinds. He's so wonderful. Nope, that one's velvet. Nope, that one feels a bit wet.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. No, he's just wonderful. But yeah, I fall asleep on his chest and I repeatedly gaslight him at least five times before he's allowed to finally just give up on me and close the laptop. But I'm there with like drool on my, you know, the side of my mouth being like, no, no, I was just hungry. So I was dribbling because I was hungry. I'll say anything other than like, yeah, I'm just fucking tired because I've had a long fucking day. So that's our normal

nighttime routine. But friends being there, having a dinner party, playing games, laughing until we fart. But hang on, there was some organizing. Well yeah, that's when the real party starts. When everyone leaves. When everyone leaves. I fucking live for the tidy up afterwards. I was writing about this the other day, that when I used to go to house parties,

in the rare instance I was invited when I was writing about this the other day that like when I used to go to house parties in the rare instance I was invited when I was a teenager Why were you not invited to house parties when you're a teenager? I'm a fucking loser. I had very big school shooter energy Big school shooter vibes. I was just fucking weird. I was weird. I didn't understand how to connect with other young people I didn't have any of the same interests as them surely that's come across today in this interview No, because we would have been friends. I know, but where were you? You were up north. Yeah, that was impossible. Probably being popular, but I wasn't. I was not at all.

And I would just sit there staring at people trying to learn how to be more like them. But they just think I'm planning to wear their skin as my skin. You know, they didn't know that I was just studying. Until today, you'd hate the texture of that. Yeah, exactly. Anyway. Yeah. So I would go occasionally be invited either by accident or just because the whole class had been invited. I would go to like a party, a house party, and I would in the winter set up a coat check at a house party of someone else's house. And I would take tips. But that wasn't the

goal. The goal was to be able to talk to people and have a reason to talk to them. And also I felt really responsible for making sure that they were warm when they left. So I would stay till the bitter end to make sure that everyone got their coat. So there wouldn't have been any coats if you'd have done this party at all. Exactly. But if it was a winter coat, exactly. Well, so therefore, if when it was summer, I'd panic and be like, shit, what am I going to do? There's no coat check. So I would bring my own bin bags and I would just tidy up along across the course of the night. Oh, you were the tidy up at the house party.

I was the tidy up at the house party because I didn't want the parents to be left with a big mess, but also I loved it and that was the most fun part for me. So I still have that same energy at my own house parties where before people have left, I've started washing up. I will not let anyone touch any of the cleaning. I don't want people to help. I'm not trying to give a hint that I want everyone to scrap in. That's the tricky thing about tidying up around people. Yeah, no, no, no. I'm very intense about it. But they know that. And James has just learned he cannot stop me.

Yeah. He cannot stop me from cleaning. So he just goes, leave her. Just leave her. Just leave her. Because we were in a pub actually the other day and they started hoovering around us and I was like, no, we get it. We're going. That's amazing. But you also haven't served us the puddings yet. So you can't. Yeah, that's hoovering around you is the most passive aggressive British thing I've ever heard of in my entire life.

Yeah. But this is what I'm thinking that happens at your house. No, when I'm ready for everyone to leave, I put on an Indian accent because then people don't feel as offended because you're doing a funny sort of like different voice. And I just start going, get out! Okay, get out! And I start physically shooing them out of my house. And they're like, it's not Jamila, it's just this strange Indian. Yeah, it's just Majeed. Have you got an alter ego? I have many alter egos.

Majeed is the angriest of them. He's the angriest, but he's real. And you know what you get with Majeed. And so at some point Majeed has had enough. Oh my god, I bet Majeed's really helpful. Is Majeed occasionally on social media? I would say quite a lot of what I've done wrong was Majeed's fault. I love Majeed. Majeed is fantastic and people really like him. So Jamila and I know you've got to go back for the dogs so I'm conscious of the time. Because I'm obsessed with them because they're my best friends. Yeah and you've got to go and chase after them and do

dog noises and pretend to be against a tree. We have a big walk planned today. Do you? Yeah I'm always looking for new routes so that we can go and sniff new things. Sounds delightful. It's really quite sad on my part but they are having a fucking whale of a time. But yeah so I clean and clean and clean and then I fall asleep hours after James. Heaven. Jamila thank you so much. I've just got one more question, which is what's a piece

of perfection that you'd recommend this week? A piece of perfection that I would recommend is the film, The Triangle of Sadness. I just rewatched it again and I was like, this is one of the great movies of all time. Thank you so much. There you go. Triangle of Sadness by Jamila. Oh, yeah, I made it and I starred in it and I produced and directed it. And I made all of the catering and I'm that's why I'm so tired now. And you did all the tidying up. Yeah. Jamila.

Yeah. You're so clever and articulate and funny and brilliant. And thank you so much for coming on Perfect Day. It was such a lovely chat. Thank you for being here. Oh, thanks for having me. Right, let's have it then. Who regrets all their life choices and wishes they could just be Jamila Jamil all their life? Chasing squirrels and eating cookies every morning. Yeah, all of us. Okay, can't believe I finally met a relaxed woman after literally 40 years on the planet. Although,

if you're a relaxed woman, please let me know your secrets. Do you chase squirrels like a dog? Or is it the tidying? Or is it the breakfasts? Please just tell me all your secrets. Thanks again to the gorgeous and wonderful, hilarious Jamila for sharing her perfect day and make sure you like and subscribe as we have loads of brilliant guests coming on. And if you want, you can follow us on at Perfect Day cast on Instagram for all your Perfect Day news. From Yorkshire with love, I'm Jessica Napp from All Killin' All Filler.

And I'm Paul McCaffrey from What's Upset You Now, and we'd like to tell you all about our brand new podcast, Glad Rags. Every week we have a guest from the world of entertainment and design their perfect night out. Where are you going? What year is it? What are you wearing? What are you listening to?

And most importantly... Can we come? Where would you go, Paul? Do you know what? I'd go anywhere in 1995. I don't care where it is. I think 1995 was the peak of all human existence. The clothes, the music, everything. What would you listen to?

Well, I'll be honest, if I'm in a good mood, it's an Oasis playlist. If I'm in a bad mood... It's an Oasis playlist. Absolutely. Come and join us wherever you get your podcasts for the best night out of your life. I'm Max Rushton. I'm David O'Doherty. And we'd like to invite you to listen to our new podcast, What Did You Do Yesterday?

It's a show that asks guests the big question, quite literally, what did you do yesterday? That's it. That is it. Max, I'm still not sure, where do we put the stress? Is it what did you do yesterday? What did you do yesterday? You know what I mean? What did you do yesterday?

I'm really downplaying it. Like, what did you do yesterday? Like, I'm just a guy just asking a question, but do you think I should go bigger? What did you do yesterday? What did you do yesterday? Every single word this time, I'm going to try and make it like it is the killer word. What did you do yesterday?

That's too much, isn't it? That is, that's over the top. What did you do yesterday? Available wherever you get your podcasts every Sunday.