PHLY Philadelphia Eagles Podcast - CONFIDENCE METER: Have Eagles’ lessons from 2023 stuck enough to avoid a similar collapse?

Episode Date: December 4, 2025

Is it possible that Nick Sirianni and Jalen Hurts have unlearned the lessons from the Eagles’ 2023 season? Is it possible they never really learned them at all? EJ Smith is joined by PHLY contributor Les Bowen to discuss the reasons for confidence and the reasons for worry going into the final stretch of the regular season. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome everybody to the P.H.O.I. Eagle Show. In the Infinity Studio, we are live and we are presented by B.365 and Ashley Furniture. I am your host. That is right, in the host chair today. E.J. Smith, and I am joined. I'm very excited to be joined by a former colleague, a current colleague. I mean, I would go so far as saying, one of the most important mentors I have ever had in my career. Good Lord. Les Bowen. That's a lot. That's a weighty pronouncement there. I mean, yeah, listen, I will, I will a lot to. You have taught me a lot in my career.

I want to give you your flowers early and now. You need better mentors than that. No, no. You're going to get anywhere in this business. Jesus. How are we doing less? I'm doing well. I'm doing well, E.J.

I'm doing better than Jail and I was about to say. Yeah. So, you know, we can, we can kick it early here to the big deal. which is Jalen Carter. Again, that's a, sorry, that's a big deal presented by Cherry Hill, Mitsubishi. Jalen Carter, he is reportedly week to week with honestly two shoulder injuries. So injuries to both shoulders, he had to undergo a procedure and he will be out not only for this upcoming Chargers game, but again, expected to be a week-to-week injury.

The reports from ESPN indicate that it's not something that will land him on injured reserve necessarily, but something that will hold him out for the next couple of weeks. So honestly, we should discuss first and foremost the fallout in the short term for the Eagles. Well, what you just said, though, I mean, I'm no medical expert, heaven knows, but are you aware of a lot of shoulder procedures that let you play defensive tackle in the NFL after a couple weeks? I most certainly am not. It reminds me of another former colleague of ours, Bob Ford, would always say the only minor surgery is a surgery that somebody else is. Yeah, exactly.

I, you know, if they're not putting him on IR, then obviously they do have this hope, but I would love to know exactly what was done here and what the injury was and so forth. But I guess we're not ever going to get that. But, yeah, in the short term, so you got the chargers coming up Monday night in L.A. Not a very good interior line, offensive line. Yeah. Certainly a game that you would think Jalen Carter would have had a big impact. on.

I don't know what this will do with the point spread or anything like that. I do think the Eagles have, you know, and Joe Mo and guys, David, Jordan Davis is having a good year. Yeah. But that rotation has been shallow this year. And that's an important thing to note when, again,

it's important to say that Jalen Carter has been dealing with a shoulder, at least one shoulder injury all season. It's something that he's been open about. You know, it's been obvious when you watch him play. and I think it has been a contributing factor to his level of play dipping for a long stretch of the season.

He played 85% of the snaps last season or 85% of snaps of this season. He played 84% of the snaps last season. Obviously they had that long postseason run with him really on the field for almost the entirety of that postseason run. I think you are starting to see some of the after effects of that wear and tear.

You're seeing that in other parts of the team as well, the offensive lines. Absolutely. Yeah. It's as far as, you know, this guy young, he's terrible. You know, Ty Robinson, maybe you give Ty Robinson a shot there. I was thinking right before we came on that, boy, it says, Thomas Booker would look good right now if you had to trade for Jacori and Bennett, who can't get on the field in the defense anyway. He plays special teams, I guess.

Yeah, it's a tough. a potentially season-altering news that just came across our desk here. And I think we're kind of not sure yet what it means. Yeah, you know, a quick point on Ty Robinson. I asked Vixanjo about him yesterday and asked if he might factor into the rotation a little bit more. You know, he was presented as a ready-made player coming out of college, an older prospect that theoretically should have been able to get on the field without much, you know, without much acclamation time. and it really hasn't happened for him.

So that's an interesting one to keep an eye on with Jalen Carter out now. And defensive tackle isn't like corner, you know. I mean, you're in the middle of the line and you hit person in front of you and you don't let them run over you and stuff like that. Not the most complex position. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. It'll be, I'd love to know what Uncle Vic really thinks about all this.

Well, he's pretty honest usually, but yeah, that'll wrap it up for, the big deal, again presented by Cherry Hill Mitsubishi. I do want to stick with, I want to talk about one more thing with Jalen Carter with you, Les, because we went into this season. Obviously, he will be extension eligible this offseason. And I think the conversation around Jalen Carter going into the season was whether or not he would command not top of the defensive tackle market, but really top of the defensive player, the non-quarterback market. And I do wonder, especially now that he might, he will be out for a couple of weeks here, if you look at his production, I do wonder if he, you know, where that extension would fall now.

You know, he's up to two sacks this season. He's got 32 total tackles. Only four tackles for losses. Really has been a bit of a regression. And even last year, he wasn't, he didn't have high popping numbers. It was if you watched him every day, every game, every down. You saw the disruption that he had. So I'm curious, how do you think this will affect where he fits in the market in this offseason?

Yeah, that's a great question. You're right. He hasn't done. what he did last season. I assume it's because of these shoulder injuries. I don't want to see the Eagles move away from him in any way. Sure. Unless they have a plan to replace him with somebody who can be a dominant talent like he can be.

But it's very hard to know what the dollars look like. And not just for the Eagles, for any other team out there. I guess you have to hope he's going to come back before this is all over and play, and they'll have a playoff run, and he'll be, you know, you'll be good in that situation, and you'll go forward from there. But if not, I don't know what they do. I don't know how other teams view him. I mean, this is a guy you drafted, what, ninth overall?

Yeah, ninth overall, traded up one spot. Yeah, you know, you'll only keep people like that around. Yeah, it's tricky. If the Eagles have, as you know, the Eagles have such a tendency to get these extensions done as as soon as possible, as early as possible. I do wonder if this might be a case where you don't. This might be one where both sides want another year to evaluate this. You know, you have the fifth year option.

They've got time to make these decisions. Usually you'd evaluate and go the price for a guy like Jalen Carter is only going to go up. But I don't know if I'm the Eagles. I do wonder if you want to wait another year right now. That's a good point. Yeah. So if you look at the top of the defensive tackle market, I mean, Chris, Jones is at 31.2 million. Milton Williams is at 26 million annually. I mean, that's a big

difference between the likes of Michael Parsons and, you know, even Miles Garrett. Like those guys, their contracts obviously different positions, but level of impact, you're talking about $40 million players there. Well, you just brought up the name Milton Williams. Yeah. We all know that Milton Williams was drafted by the Philadelphia Eagles. Why is he in New England right now? Because the Eagles didn't want to pay him, they were worried about this Jalen Carter deal down the road. Yeah. Sometimes maybe look at what's in front of you instead of worrying about what's down the road. They could have paid Milton Williams. Yeah, they could have. And we wouldn't maybe be as sweating this as much as we are right now. Yeah, I still err on the side that like the

contract that Milton Williams got, you probably feel like that's a little rich for my blood. I understood letting him walk, and especially they've been fortunate that Morrow Adjomo has played at such a high level in replacement of Milton Williams. But it's a fair point, you know, especially it kind of does speak to Vic Fangio's tendency to have that short rotation and keep players out on the field for as much as he has. You know, we're used to seeing the likes of Fletcher Cox and Javon Hargrave rotate a lot more than what Vic Fangio tends to prefer, both at defense tackle and edge rusher.

I do think it's fair to say that this is, again, a consequence of relying so heavily on your top players without the rotation. Wearing them down. Yeah, yeah, which is something that Howie Roseman and really the Eagles defense, I mean, dating back to, I would say Jim Schwartz, you think that that's fair to say?

Even farther, I would say. Yeah, yeah. Sandy Reid always talked about, you know, fresh, especially with the edge rushers, you know. I can't remember the phrase that he used to use. It was something like firing fresh bullets or something like that. Sure. Yeah. I mean, you're used to seeing those deep rotations. And they obviously have, you know, the players. But again, to your point, Byron Young and Ty Robinson,

they don't seem to be moving Vic Fangio very much toward rotating a little bit more heavily. So it's an interesting one. And I think it is another thing that's important to keep in mind is that the cost of like a postseason run. You mentioned it on the offensive line as well. You're starting to see that show up on defense, especially. I mean, they've played the second most snaps in the NFL in the last four weeks. So you're definitely seeing the effect. Yeah, what was it, 87 snaps against the Falcons. I think that's ludicrous. Yeah, 275 over four weeks. So, yeah, and they're 40, it was 45 snaps in the first half. I think it was actually, yeah, 45, which is the most a defense is played in the first half all season. Yeah. So, and it's,

you know. And that's where you end up, you know. Yeah. So I, the other thing we should talk about at the top of the show is Slay, Darius Slay, contemplating retirement after being claimed by the bills. Yeah, I'm glad you brought that because I saw, and I know most of our followers understand this, but I saw a couple people on social media, even one media guy saying, oh, the Eagles should offer the bills some, well, they can't. I mean, the trade deadline was over a long time ago. They can't trade for Darius Slay.

If the bills were to somehow just renounce his rights or something. Which is probably what he's angling for. Yeah, I guess he would go back into the waiver pool again, and maybe the Eagles could end up with him. But I don't see how the bills obviously wanted him to come in. It's a playoff team. Sure. A chance to come play for.

I guess he doesn't like the weather or something. I mean, can you blame him going up to Buffalo for a month and a half in December? Yeah, it's a tough ask. But yeah, my guess is that this is him angling. Obviously, it was reported that there was mutual interest between him and the Eagles. Um, you know, I figured the team that was the biggest threat for the Eagles would have been Detroit. Um, you know, if the, if the Eagles tried to let him go through waivers, uh, and I, you know,

the bills were ahead of the Eagles in the waiver order. So, um, and I think it was reported by, uh, Ian Rappaport that the Eagles also put in a claim for Darius play, but he didn't make it to them. So my guess here is that he is going to try to angle his way out of Buffalo, whether that is to go to the Eagles or elsewhere, I would, I would imagine it would be the Eagles. Um, but again, there's, I don't know if there's really a precedent for, you know, contemplating retirement you're contemplating retiring your way out of a situation you know i know i know la shaw mccoy did that with the bills as well but he and it was a little bit of different

situation because he was traded to buffalo uh and he ended up playing for the bills obviously yes you could um so yeah definitely an interesting one to monitor um you know i do think that he i dari slay would increase or up you know improve the eagles cornerback rotation it's it kind of does remind me of jire alexander who they traded for yeah they wanted like a very very very veteran player that maybe, you know, some other teams across the league didn't think had much left in the tank. But if you're the Eagles, you feel pretty good about Dariuslay and what he looks like in your, in your secondary in your system. It's just a matter if he can make it to him at this point. Speaking of Jerry Alexander, I know that's far in the rearview mirror at this

point, but that was a guy. He was like 28 years old. I mean, he had serious injuries. Yeah. But do you see him maybe coming back and playing? Alexander? Yeah. it's hard to say yeah it's just not overcomable i mean is he just not ever going to be the guy that he once was you know and this is this isn't really speaking specifically to jayyre alexander it's just this has happened with the eagles a few times now where they've had guys come in and retire and it it it brings back like with some of these players they're big name players they've been successful for a long time and i do think it's a big difference between being like a star player on a team being you know with the ones you know never having to be on scound

team. I think it's a big difference when you go to a new situation and you've fallen down the pecking order and all of a sudden you're playing scout team and you're kind of, or maybe if it's not scout team, but you're just kind of, you're not put up on the pedestal that you were before. I think that that does take a lot of mental toughness and take a certain level of like adaptability that maybe is harder than we give it credit for. All right.

Maybe. I mean, I can't say that that's specifically what happened here, but I do think, because you think about how many big name players that Eagles bring in. for the end of their career. Some of them work, and some of them don't, and I do think it is a big adjustment for those. But I wouldn't really put Alexander in that category just because he's so young.

Yeah, he's, yeah. But I guess the injuries have been devastating to his ability. Yeah, and I think the mental side of it too. So, but, yeah, I mean, I don't know. I think the fact that the Dory Jackson has played better makes you feel a little bit better if Darius Lay is not walking through that door,

but still it would have been a good addition. It would. Anytime you can keep Keely Ringo off the field, that's a plus to me. I used to be a big Keeley-Ringo believer, so. All the physical tools, they're all there. It's not comfortable playing the position quite yet, right? Just a toolbox.

Yeah. Anyway, we're going to take our first break, and we're going to come back on the other side with an interview from Malcolm Jenkins. Whatever the moment, it's never ordinary at Bet365. There's a big game tonight. Go check out the Thursday night touchdown offer. Place qualifying parlay bets totaling

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Again, that's win or lose. bonus bets can be used on the spread totals player props futures and more whatever the moment it's never ordinary at bet three six five you must be 21 or older and physically located in pennsylvania if you or someone you know has a gambling problem and wants help call one 800 gambler if you're a last-minute shopper like me you know the feeling shelves are empty and ideas are running low aura frames is a solution with a gift that feels personal whether it's at hard to shop for dad or that special someone in your life with picky taste. Aura Frames can give you the peace of mind to avoid those Christmas Eve shopping runs.

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so order yours now to get it in time for the holidays. Support this show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. Happy holidays. And a very exciting moment here. We've got on the day that he goes into the Eagles Hall of Fame, Hall of Famer, Malcolm Jenkins. Good morning, it's Malcolm.

I appreciate you having me. Congratulations. Thank you. What an honor. Yeah, it's been, it's humbling, to say the least. For sure. Now, I know you wrote about this for the Eagles website, just the importance that you have always placed on legacy.

So how much do you feel like this cements that legacy? And what do you feel like your legacy is as an Eagle? Honestly, I think the exciting part about legacies that is ongoing. And I think that's the reason for. you know today is that the legacy extended beyond what we did on the field you know what happened years ago but the fact that it still has meaning to fan base to the city you know now and that continue you know that legacy continues to be built upon I think is the most important thing so to me it's really not like a it's not like the finish line sure it is very much kind of like a

the intermission. Okay. Take the moment to see how far we've come, how much we've done, and then, you know, where we're going, taking a look ahead at what's to come. Well, I've been thinking a lot about this

with doing the show with BG this year about, you know, the issues that some guys might have in terms of finding their identity after football, right? And he's, you know, going back and forth. How have you navigated that? As you talk about this as an intermission, sort of finding out who you are,

post football. Oh, it's difficult. And even somebody like me who has so much going on. Always. You still find that identity crisis, you know. And what I've been forced to do, what I've forced myself to do is to stay away from the game a little bit. And what that, you know, painfully forced me to figure out was like, how do I apply

all of the experiences and knowledge that I've, you know, built up over a career in this sport it's like what does that matter outside of this sport and I've had to you know come to terms with that and at first there doesn't seem to me much correlation

and but after a couple years of exploration really diving deep you see that it's connected to everything and that all that I was able to you know accomplish as an athlete are

was because of these principles these core principles of myself and it would be the same things that make me a great father, a great member of the community, you know, et cetera. Those things don't just stop on the football floor. Sure. Yeah. And so it's, it takes time and it's scary for us to imagine being a rookie at another place

and to do some of that soul searching, especially when, you know, it's so comfortable to be praised and to be looked at in that uniform. But the reality is it dies for all of us. And I think, you know, some of us take a little. longer to come in terms with that than others. Well, yeah, it's interesting from you as you say, someone who, even when you were playing, had so much else going on

that you're still going through that, but you find that the attention to detail, the care, they're like wanting to be a part of a team, all of that stuff, it does translate. Yeah, 100%. And you realize that the world wants those things. Yeah, amen. The world is searching for people

who, you know, are dedicated, who understand what discipline is, who understand you know that things are bigger who understand chasing things that are bigger than themselves leadership conflict all of these things that we've been trained to do since we were six, seven years old you find are at a premium

and we are experts at doing it and so it just it takes a little reframing it takes a little reframing but I think even I had to stop using the word retired because it really doesn't accurately you know say what it well it's the meme of like you know this 35 year old football player what a what a miracle he's on the field

and everybody else is like oh what a young man exactly yeah yeah and there's so much more to do too and there's so much to explore so much time that we've given to the game that I think you know we almost are afraid to take that time back in and turn it inward but hopefully you know my journey has been an example in multiple ways not only how to do more to just play ball while you're kind of in it and still play at a high level but how to transition out of it and continue to have a sense of identity and continue to build upon the things that you built while you weren't playing and just you know an example of a curious life so in wanting to give yourself space from football was was the photography like

the first, like, taste that you would give yourself to go back? No, honestly, it was really the writing was first. So even, like, jumping into post my career with the launch of my memoir, so I wrote a book. Tell the people so they can. Yeah, it's called What Winners Won't Tell You. As my memoir goes through kind of like my upbringing all the way through my retirement and just really what I realized was most important to my story. The ups and downs, et cetera.

It's really, really vulnerable stories. So definitely check it out. But I think that really started my journey. And I left that end of that book, ended, like, opening it. There was no hard clothes. It was kind of, like, I know I'm done with football, and let's see what I do next. And so in the storytelling, I dove into my love for art and just kind of spend a lot of time with different people. And that perspective has really helped me dive into.

some of these other things that I enjoy like photography, which I thought was like the perfect example of how to show up in the same space with a different perspective. So just that practice alone is giving me the, you know, that those waking up the muscle memory of being a rookie,

you know, having to be prepared, having to think ahead and learn some things, be curious, all of which I think are very natural once we put ourselves back in that mindset. Well, yeah, you got to start doing something. You can't, you know, otherwise I'd be in the house watching film all day. Right, right. Well, it's funny.

I mean, I love those clips of you from NFL films when you're, you know, photographing the game and you're calling out what play is coming next. Like, obviously it helps you because you know where the ball is coming. But are you like, are you able to turn that off ever? Or like if you have a football game on, it's like you all of a sudden are into a beautiful mind. Yeah, I'm all, yeah, I can't watch football just for the sake of the game. I'm always like, oh, this is. a four-by-one situation.

They're going to throw this backside X-lan or, okay, zone reads coming. But, you know, all that stuff is fun. I don't know what I'm going to do with it yet. Right, right. But I'm like, it's like that Tom Brady commercial and it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Once you have all the knowledge of Tom Brady,

it's like, it could be a curse. So as you watch this Eagles defense, do you find like, oh, man, I would love to play for Vic Fangio. What sort of jumps out to you as you watch this group? No, you know what? They play really well. I love this defense. but I was really happy in Schwartz's defense

to be honest I love this simplicity I love that it let the front forward get after it and it let me play a thousand different positions so you know it took care of my ADHD well it's interesting because we from the outside we talk about how VIX's defense is more built back to front right a little bit but you prefer it the other way

because then it gives you more freedom to you have to play multiple roles yeah well if you go when you start you know back to front the if you have an injury on the back end which they have had which they have had suddenly it's felt so much more than if you start front to back if you can continue to get pressure we're rotating guys anyway you're rotating guys anyway and you can actually generate pressure with that no matter who you have on the back end you can you can get away with it um and which we dealt with many times while I was there you know we had a decimated secondary we're like I'm

the only healthy guy but because we got a front forward i can get after you know we can simplify the coverage so but that's just my philosophy um personally but i think when you do go back end to the front uh it's usually a little bit more cerebral of a defense that allows you to do a little bit more to trick quarterbacks plus guys in the right position which i've been i've been in that type of defense not the same style but um with rob ryan is very much uh a back into front type of mindset and we did all kind of stuff in the secondary and I you know enjoyed that too so a thousand ways of skin to cat but they're doing well when you watch this defense do you in the same way of like you can't turn it off do you recognize someone on the defense who's like oh

they've got the same sickness like they they see it they have an incredible football IQ as well no I think the like off the top of the that jump off the tape is cooper the gene yeah and And, um, well, I want to ask you about Zach Bonn because what a weird thing for you is like, he wasn't a linebacker in the two years when you guys play together at New Orleans. Yeah, but when you're a young guy, you play, you know, you play all of them. So he was behind, he just happened to be behind two really good linebackers in New Orleans. And I know, I can tell he's soaked up a lot of information on just how to study,

how to prepare, how to replays, where to put your eyes before to snap. and then how to, when you see it, trust it, and go get it. So, not surprised at how he's playing, but surprised at how quickly he took that, he took it and ran with it. Because you think that the middle of the field, right, you know, the linebackers and the safety is the reps matter so much. And for him to have stepped in in his first year as a linebacker last year,

that's what's so surprising to me. Well, not really. I think, I feel like the mic is easier. Okay. Then, like, as long as you understand the defense and the calls, the Mike is easier to which he did. And he was always somebody who was in charge of kind of making calls and doing things. So I don't think that part of the game is heavy.

So now all you've got to do is stand in the middle, play inside out, run and hit if you're free. Yeah. It's like, hey, the coverage skills are less, you know, you're not challenged as much as the mic in coverage, even though he can cover tight ends, et cetera. so I think he's I think he's built for it where physically the demands come down for his ability and he's allowed to take over mentally and then Coup is just a I think he's just a smart player

yeah he's just really smart puts itself in the right position most of the time tackles well understands what's what's coming from a leverage standpoint you do that most of the time you're going win I'm going to ask you about this in a second this awesome piece of artwork behind you and Spectresportsart.com, the card you have coming out. The other thing I want to ask you about, though, is, you know, we heard reports when you left, right, was a lot about, okay, this team needs to become Carson's team. The quarterback needs to take over as a leader.

And so I'm curious now as we hear this stuff about Jalen in the locker room, what your perspective is on a quarterback and the role of the leadership in the locker room and all of those dynamics. You know, I think there are, different makeups of locker rooms. I think what made our locker room so strong in 2017 was that the quarterback was not the leader at all.

Right. Like at all. Right. So I'm not the person who's standing. So it's not a necessity, obviously. It's not a necessity. I think, but it, there is a leadership can come from anywhere. Sure.

And so for us, our leadership on that team came from veterans like myself, the Chris loans, the guys who had been to championships. were the voices that could settle the, you know, locker room. I actually haven't been on any good teams in which the quarterback's voice was like the one that carried everything. Even when Drew Brees, you know, is the leader, you had a Jonathan Vilma, you had Scott Fagitas, you had all of these other really strong voices that would have probably said something before it even got to Drew. If the quarterback gets taken over, it's like we are in trouble. And I think that's one thing that I'm always looking for in a team is, you know, long before it gets to the point where the quarterback or the coach has to, you know, address something and take the bull by the horns, it's like, where are the other voices and leaders?

Probably a bigger indication of the depth of leadership on the team. Okay. Is that, do you feel like because the quarterback has so many other things to be? concerned about or just you know there there's more to a football team than just a quarterback i think there's more to a football team than just a quarterback um yeah to be honest and and it's the willingness um it also shows the willingness for like how much ownership does everybody have sure like everybody expects the quarterback to say something he touches the ball every play he's the guy has to do the the podium and all these things yeah yeah yeah so we expect the quarterback he actually almost has no choice but to face it but you look to see like how who are the other

guys that jump into the fire you know on behalf of the team because that those are usually the voices that you'll see when shit hits the fan in a game in a season that will also feel compelled to you know like it's their responsibility like they have ownership all right tell me about this cart. The Immortals collection here. We're speaking about legacy. I mean, first of all, it looks awesome. Yeah, it's awesome. Yeah, the artwork is phenomenal. Two great

moments. Obviously, the Super Bowl hit. But yeah, it's a partnership with Immortals. I don't do many cards, so we're doing this. This is our first collaboration on a collection card. And the attention to detail to make sure you see that this is a legal hit.

It's illegal hit. There's no head contact there. You're leading with the shoulder. great stuff man he's got the score in the helmets and small details the city is is on fire is supposed to represent the passion of the city the passion in which i played and so yeah it's a phenomenal uh card it's a small collection so you know for those collectors out there definitely want to get your hands on it um spectresportsart dot com yep that's where people can go yeah man all right last thing i got to get you on the record on because we have we have viny curry who does the post game show with us he wants everybody to know we all we got we all we need

Is it true that that is Vinny's? No, that was mine. I'm joking. I'm going to go on the record. Vinny Curry started, we all we got, we all we need. I think he started it maybe

the season before we actually won a football. I think so. And, you know, because he was the one that did the majority of the pregame breaks. That was his.

I'll go on the record. All right. I like that. Vinnie Curry. And then, you know, I will ask you about BG because,

you know, I was watching the clip of you, on the Eagles website, breaking down all of your high IQ moments, those awesome things. And on so many of them, it's like the ball comes out because BG is about to get to the quarterback.

Is it funny to watch him still be out there? I mean, not funny, but, like, impressive. It is. Every time I see him, it looks like his back hurts. I'm like, at this. Yeah, he looks at like how I feel. Yeah, at this age, I'm like, it's more respect to you because, yeah,

I think I, like, ran into something the wrong way the other day and ruined me. Oh, a sneeze can ruin your day. So I'm like, hey, more power to you, 10 snaps a game, I don't got it. Yeah, all right. Well, awesome. Malcolm, congratulations again.

Have fun today. Soak it all up. I appreciate it. And go to Spector Sportsart.com to check out that Immortals card. Awesome stuff. Back with more here on the P.H.O. Y, Eagles show. Shop of bestsellers at Ashley, where no matter your holiday traditions are, you're always at home.

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We're creating a cozy space by rearranging their modular seating. Ashley's selections of adaptable furniture are here to help carry on your traditions and your holiday treasures. Year after year for years to come. Shop holiday deals and make lifelong memories with Ashley's this December. All right, we are back on the P.H.O.I. Eagle Show. It was nice catching up with you, Les. Yeah, really. Great interview from Bo with Malcolm Jenkins.

Do you have any good Malcolm Jenkins stories? You know, I was just, my main Malcolm Jenkins story is before the 2016 election, we were talking to him, and I didn't realize at the time I thought, and I'm not going to say anything that will get anybody in trouble here, but I thought an NFL locker room, 65 to 70 percent of the players are black, the white guys in a locker room with all these black. guys understand certain things about why things are like they are, and that everybody would kind of be on the same page politically, or most people would be. You would think. And Malcolm was the first to tell me, like, no, all those white guys, they're going to vote for Trump. And he was pretty much right.

Yeah? Pretty much right. Even guys that you would know, wouldn't really be for tax reasons and for all kinds of, you know, it was quite a revelation. It was always an interesting dynamic with Malcolm in that locker room. Yeah. It's great to cover. I only covered a great guy. Smart guy.

Absolutely. Yeah. And a great player, a guy who could really, you know, he started out as a corner. Yeah. And he was a very high draft pick, very high first round. draft pick wasn't a great corner but was so smart that I think he became a great safety yeah and then he played some in the slot as well yeah just a versatile when you don't see that a whole lot usually if if you're drafted to do one thing and you don't turn out to be really great at that that's kind

of don't necessarily reinvent yourself no you did yeah that's a great point um so first off I wanted to give the chat a prompt obviously bo's not here today I went wrong answers only on where bow wolf is and I'm going to kick it off in the chat. I'm going to say that Bow Wolf is in Detroit because he's a big Cowboys fan. We all know, closeted Cowboys fan, Bo Wolf, big fan. Well, I understand Brooks Brothers is having a sale. No free advertising list.

Well, Bo's in that range pretty much. If you ever see him in the summer, he's always got the Brooks. Yeah, he does have that preppy vibe. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I look forward to seeing some of the wrong answers here. What I wanted to actually open the show with before we had all this news to discuss less was a story or a column you wrote on all pHLY.com about... You actually read one of them?

Oh, absolutely. I read all of them and you guys should read them too. You could become a die hard. I think our sale is still extended. Yeah, definitely you get less bone. You get me. You get Fran Duffy's draft guide and his draft coverage, which really is worth the price of admission alone. So definitely a lot of good stuff on the site.

But I really enjoyed your column about Jalen Hertz and Nick Siriani and the question that you presented on whether or not they actually learned lessons from the 2023 season or if there were external factors that papered over some of those issues that we saw in 2023 the following year. So I'll let you describe it because you could probably describe it better than me. Let's see if I remember anything about it. Yeah, you know, you want to think that when a team wins the Super Bowl, especially in as dominant a fashion as the Eagles did, the NFC championship game and the Super Bowl, two of the most incredible dominant victories any Philadelphia sports team has ever had in any sport.

You want to think, okay, problems are solved. You want to think Jalen Hertz can go forth, a free man, he's proved everything to everybody, he'll be looser, he won't be afraid to do things that he's been shy of doing before. You want to think Nick Siriani, you know, the team collapsed on him in 2023. Yeah. He brought it back and won the Super Bowl in 2024. Obviously, he knows now, you know, what he needs to do to keep the locker room together

and to keep things from snowballing. and he'll be a guy that can kind of relax a little bit and not be so uptight all the time. Nah, no, they're the same people. They always were, I think 2024, in retrospect, was mostly about adding Sequin Barclay, giving defenses a look that they had not seen from the Eagles before, and Vic Fangio, and the infusion of talent on the defense

that came with Vic Fangio, Some of it totally random, like Zach Bonn, I don't think they had any real idea that he would be what he was. Sure, yeah. Some of it incredibly fortuitous, like Cooper DeGine coming in as a rookie, not even the first pick. Yeah. You know, and of course, Mitchell, you know, it was just a confluence of factors that in retrospect might not have had that much to do with Nick Sirianney or Jaglan Hertz, but it, it all worked, and I kind of, you expect that it'll keep working, but that isn't the way the world goes.

You don't, the book isn't over, or the movie isn't over when you win the Super Bowl. It starts over again, and it's just depressing to me. You want to think, I mean, obviously nobody repeats as Super Bowl champions. The Chiefs have done it. They're the only team in 20 years. There were a whole bunch of really good Patriots teams that would win it. like every third year and so forth, but they wouldn't win it every year. Right.

And they wouldn't even get close every year. You know, that's kind of how it goes. But what you hope is going to happen if they're not there is that, okay, half a dozen guys got really badly injured and, you know, it just wasn't possible. Yeah, that is usually like the template. That's what you expect from Super Bowl. They fought really hard, but they just didn't have. Now, up to now, now today with this Jalen Carter news, we're a little bit.

closer to that kind of scenario, especially with Lane Johnson already being out. But it's been a thing all season. But it's been, yeah, it's been all, they haven't played a great game all season. They haven't played up to their talent level all season. And that, to me, it's just very frustrating and very, uh, puzzling. Yeah, no, I thought it was a great point that in 2024, Sequin Barclay's dominant season and the way that the defense took form under Vic Fangio really did paper over. some of the issues that have been prevalent with the eagle casting game the last two years.

I went to, I pulled up, Lindsay, I pulled up Jalen Hertz's stats from 2023 and then compared to them to 2025. And if you look, it is somewhat comparable, but there's two ones that really stand out to me. And it's a touchdown interception ratio, first and foremost. In 2023, through 12 games, Jalen had 19 touchdown passes and 10 interceptions. This year, he's got 19 touchdown passes and only two interceptions. But you see that his yardage is dropped and his EPA per dropback. drop. So to me, I wonder if they've actually pulled the wrong lessons from that 2020 season

where they've become so risk averse in the passing game. And you really did see that even last season. And to me, that is where the dominant run game kind of overshadowed the fact that they haven't really figured out how to be a rhythmic passing game in the last two years. It's funny, like, you know, I used to be more of a writer than I am now. I still write, but I used to write almost every day. And I had to learn how to spell a rhythmic last year because I kept using it to describe the Eagles Passer game. And, you know, I think that it holds true this year as well. So I do think that there are some some lessons that they took from 2023 that have actually maybe been the wrong lessons. And yeah, again, it's interesting to think about it holistically with Nick Siriani

because if you think about 2022, they were dominant and did they take the wrong lessons into 2023 you know oh they absolutely did you know especially like like the kind of opening up the passing game and trying to be this aggressive team you saw it with jalen hurts the following year and now it feels like there's an over correction over over correction there well the big thing i remember from 23 the big biggest disaster to me other than the the structure of the defense which how he did not do a good job that off season and that was really the root problem of that team But the other thing that happened was Nick Siriani went into training camp talking about how they weren't going to do anything differently. They were just going to do it better.

They were going to really refine the things that they were doing well. They didn't have to change anything. And that was just totally, that was 180 degrees wrong. Yeah. And it's still, you still see a little bit of that today in Nick, frankly. Why are they still trying to run these tight ends, these blocking schemes with the. tight ends who can't block you know confounds me i've been on i'm on the games now they're not going to get better at yeah kevin granson isn't suddenly going to start making that surfacing that block that he

hasn't been surfacing for 12 weeks yeah uh what the hell you know i mean do something different yeah you're preaching to the choir there and you know the other thing i wanted to talk about uh as we discussed jalen hertz and nixiriani here is the lack of jalen hertz is inclusive inclusion in the run game. Yeah. And, you know, I, I found it notable. Lindsay, we have a graphic from Kevin Petullo here. Kevin Petulow kind of hinted at the fact that this is going to be more of a thing going forward that maybe they've been saving it for the end of the season.

He said, as we go forward, he's going to continue to be a part of the offense and some of these designed runs. And we have to just pick and choose when they're available and when they present themselves. Sometimes they do it in moments and he's done it in the last couple of weeks. And we've got to continue to lean into that. So to me, that reads as if whether this was pushed by Jalen, pushed by the organization in general, they've been saving this for the end of the season. And I do wonder if that's had a real, I mean, I don't wonder it has had a negative effect on the Eagles run game. Yeah, yeah.

When it comes to Jalen and running, I was the guy in 2022 that was really skeptical of you can't run your quarterback 12 times. a game, you know, I'm not talking about push-push-pushes. I'm talking about, you know, having him take off. Design runs, zone reads, stuff like that. The Jackson Dart kind of way of running, you know, that's just not a long-term, viable plan for any quarterback.

But what we saw is that his running they do need some of that. Yeah. And that the trick is to get it, you can't have none of it and you can't have too much of it, but you've got to have some of it. And

And the real tricky part for me is I think there's a part that's in his head. Playoff Jalen always gets the extra yard or two, you know, puts on a burst, flies head first, disengaged Jalen, sits down three yards behind the line of scrimmage if it doesn't look like the run is going to amount to much. Yeah. That they don't really need a lot more of, Frank. So it'll be interesting to see if they do start running him more what that looks like on the field.

Yeah, no, I think, I said this to Beau yesterday, and I'm going to workshop it with you as well here. You tell me what you think. I feel like Jalen Hertz's career, if I could choose one of the two, the following paths for him, one's Cam Newton's career and one's Russell Wilson's career. Cam Newton was drafted one year before Russell Wilson, and obviously he is, you know, on TV now, talking about the NFL.

He had a shorter career, but it was because he, honestly, his career was more reflective of like a running back's career where he took a lot of hits throughout his career and he was one of the best players in the league because of the dual threat nature of his play. You know, his playing style didn't lend itself to longevity necessarily, but again, it did contribute to him being so, so effective. I think I'd rather have Jalen Hertz's career arc follow that one. again, not saying that this would be debilitating injury or anything like that. Obviously, Cam Newton didn't have significant injuries.

It was just kind of the wear and tear of being a quarterback that would run the ball, you know, have double-digit rushing attempts in most games. I think I'd rather Jalen Hertz have that career and stay one of the best quarterbacks in the NFL through that lens than try to lean into like a Russell Wilson, you know, pairing it down as you age and trying to run less. You know what I mean? I think what makes him special is the fact that he is as he would put it in a trip. Threat quarterback.

But Russell Wilson had a much longer prime than Cam Newton. I mean, yeah. Russell should have won two Super Bowls and probably could have gotten to another one. Cam really just had a couple real dominant years, I think. Yeah, I'd say that Cam was probably more dominant in the years that he was at the peak of his powers, right?

So to me, I think that that's what makes Jalen special. And I've always, I've always said this. You know, this has been a conversation the last few summers about, Is this the year that they, you know, try to lower his usage in the run game? I've only thought he kind of needs that to be the quarterback that we've seen him be.

Yeah, he probably does, but I wouldn't sell him short. There are things he doesn't like to do as a passer, but I think he has a better grasp than Cam Newton ever did of offensive concepts. Oh, I agree with that, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Somewhere between Cam Newton and Russell Wilson. Yeah. Yeah.

But I think Russell Wilson's career, I mean, Russell tried. to stay too long at the fair. Russell Wilson's career up until two years ago was pretty perfect. The team, the Seattle team, disintegrated around him. Sure. But he was still good for much of that. And maybe my thoughts on Russell Wilson are colored by the fact that for much of his career, he killed the Eagles.

Yeah. They could not design. I remember that. And it was like insult to injury, right? Because they wanted to draft him. And he didn't pay every time. Yeah, they absolutely, the year they drafted Nick Foles, their idea was to draft Russell Wilson, and Seattle jumped up and did it before, and they didn't think how he's always

really, one of the things how he does best is figure out exactly where someone is going to fall in the draft, not really necessarily where they should fall, but where they're going to fall. And they tried to get a little too cute with that. But Nick, you know, Foles turned out all right, so. Yeah, I would say so. Yeah. All right, we got to take our final break, and on the other side, I'm going to ask less a question about Jeffrey Lorry.

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the first one comes from our friend cdp he says can the eagle's offense i don't know how Bo reads these. Can the Eagles offense tickle L.A.'s toenails? Tonsils. Okay. That is an interesting question. I'm not sure how to answer that one. Maybe is my official answer.

The next one comes from SRG. I really have no idea how Bo reads this. I've never had to read the super chats before or less. Starting to feel like a... Okay, I'll read it from down here. Thank you. starting to feel like a our pet's heads are falling off season. Bo must be thrilled,

L.O.L. Yeah, I mean, Bo is the resident anti-pet guy on this podcast lesson. I'm not sure if you're familiar. Yeah, he doesn't like dogs, doesn't like cats. I don't think he likes animals,

which is... That's really a red flag. I was going to say, like, I really like Bo, even though he's not here. Because you and I are both dog people. Oh, absolutely, big dog people. I think every person that, like,

I would say 85% of the people here are dog, or at least pet people. Yeah. Yeah, it's a red flag for a guy that doesn't have many red flags. That's what I'll say. Yes, yes. All right. We've also got one from Musa.

He says, is it possible the conservative nature of the passing game has stunted Jalen's development as a passer? Or at this point, is he a finalized product? I think that's a very, very fair and good question. I think, I think, you know, it's funny. Bo talks about a lot the double negative of like the Eagles run a conservative offense and they've also coached Jaylen Hertz to be a conservative quarterback. Yeah. And you really only need one of those to be the case to avoid turnovers most of the time.

I think that Jalen coming out of college was billed as a quarterback who needed to see it open before, you know, he wasn't a timing and anticipation type thrower. But I do think his conservative nature is a product of the offense that he's been in with, you know, over the last four or five seasons with Nick Siriani. And the fact that they just don't scheme receivers open, you know, it's, that puts a lot of pressure. on Jalen I think yeah absolutely do we have any good theories as to where Bo is today oh I like these okay so bow is at an AI convention no okay totally possible uh taking a taking kneecap biting lessons oh yeah no bow would be pro cowboys in this in this Thursday night clash between the lines and cowboys a big big game yeah sneakily big game yeah um bow ate a raw egg this morning with and got sick.

I did see the eggshells in the 8th studio when I walked in here this morning. So maybe Bo did. Maybe he left for that. Uh, Bo is hanging out with the guy who asked for his phone number. Um, I highly doubt that one. Uh,

Bo is at the Reading terminal market downing a cheese stick with a cam zooming in on him. I mean, it is like his favorite thing to do. Yeah, you guys had fun at that. Oh, we had so much fun. I love the Reading.

For all the people who showed up and, you know, especially sat up to my guy, Seth, uh, Godshall's turkey or God Saul's poultry uh yeah that was a lot of fun appreciate you all bo's nipple piercing got infected so he's getting it drained today hey there we go what a visual that that is right there i i'm sticking with mine i think he's he's got his uh his cowboy's hat on he's headed to detroit he's rooting for a cowboy's victory for because you know we all know but was a secret cowboys fan yes oh we got one more a david baker baker impersonation convention

Is he leading the convention? I mean, it would be, I would imagine he could teach everyone how to be David Baker. Is that actually, Bo, in the chat? I have plenty of red flags. This ain't, this just ain't one. I think it's his only red flag. All right, Les, this is another question. I think you are particularly qualified to answer.

Okay. You have covered a lot of off-seasons led by Jeffrey Lorry in his time as the Eagles owner. And I'm curious, let's say that things, stay on this trajectory. Let's make, not total 2023 implosion, but let's say that this early playoff exit. Yeah, let's say that this team fizzles out. How do you think this offseason goes? And what do you think Jeffrey Lurie is thinking right now about the importance of the next

four or five weeks? Yeah, that's, it's a tough question. I do think probably publicly, you'll hear a lot of well. unfortunately injuries caught up with us and guys were just so worn out from the 21 game season that we won the Super Bowl and we'll be back recharged and that's probably true to some extent but I think it'll I think he'll look a lot deeper than that I don't think he's going to accept oh this is just what happens when you win the Super Bowl even if it's true I think he's going to look for deeper things and try to, you know, the offense, I said before, Jeffrey Lurie

wants a cutting edge offense, an offense that commentators are talking about and like Sean McVeigh, you know, somebody like, something like that where your people are marveling at how the Eagles do this, you know, and they don't get that. Yeah, it's not where they're at right now. So, In that context, almost anything could happen. I mean, they're not going to fire Nick Siriani a year after winning the Super Bowl. They did fire Doug Peterson two years after winning the Super Bowl. I think, and I think there's going to be a lot of talking between Nick and Jeffrey and Howie, among those three, as to how you go forward. I don't see how, whether it's fair or not, if this happens the way you laid it out, I don't see how Kevin Petula possibly.

sure survives it and I think they would bring in somebody from the outside and it would be somebody who wouldn't just run nick's offense you know um so a lot of rough waters ahead I would say yeah and and Nick's reaction to that would would be a big factor absolutely what happens yeah um Kevin Petulo someone he's as you've mentioned many times very very very close to. It's not like when they got rid of Ben Johnson, who was, Ben Johnson, Brian. Brian Johnson, I think they wish it was Ben. Brian Johnson, who was, who was, who was, who was Jalen Hertz guy, actually. I still don't, I wonder how still how Jalen really felt about that. But yeah, a lot of, a lot going to be going on this offseason. If this goes, this goes bad,

it's not going to be like, oh, well, what are you going to do? Yeah. All right. Now, we are in in Bover time. I will maintain the sanctity. of overtime. Yeah, I agree less. I think Nick Siriani's reaction is like the interesting one here. I mean, we both covered the 2020, the aftermath of the 2020 season, when Doug Peterson's defense of Press Taylor was definitely a part of, you know, his eventual firing. So I think it was the biggest part. Absolutely. Yeah. So I do wonder, you know, this time last year, well, not this time last year, but, you know, about 10 months ago, we were talking about how Nick Siriani had earned the right to name his own offensive coordinator.

And he had. Yeah. And I do wonder how this off-season- But it hasn't worked out well. Yeah. I mean, the response is a big deal there. And because I agree with you.

And even in moving forward or in the next couple of weeks, you know, they've said that Kevin Petulow is still the play caller, but I think I'd be surprised if something hadn't changed. Maybe not the literal play caller, but the operation that they have, it would surprise me if something hadn't been shifted from this extended break that they had. I agree.

So, I don't know. It's, it's an interesting one. It's the Nick Siriani Jalen Hertz partnership has produced almost, I mean, a ridiculous amount of winning. Yes. While also having a lot of long-term questions about the sustainability of both of Nick's philosophy and the way that Jalen plays a quarterback if you can build an offense around that.

So I'm sure there are offensive minds out there that could figure it out, but it is, it's a tough needle to thread. I haven't covered that many coaches. and franchise quarterbacks who had a long time together. I guess the main one was Andy Reed and Donovan McNabb. I never felt that Donovan and Andy were on totally different pages personality-wise. I mean, Donovan was kind of a goofy personality, but I think in football matters, I think he and Andy were very close.

Yeah. I don't get that feeling with Jalen and Nick. Yeah, I think they've gotten closer. And I think that there is a balance between the two of them, like a complimentary nature. You know, Jalen's stoicism, Nick's emotion and, you know, the fire he has on the sideline. I think that, you know, the visual from Super Bowl 57 of Nick, like, gesturing to the chief's defensive players to come back down on the other side of the field because he thought the call was going to get overturned and Jalen pulling his arm down. Like, we don't do that. I think that is such a good illustration of the two of them.

So I think they have complementary personalities, but I agree. think that philosophically and football well actually you know what less i would say this year philosophically they've they view things the same okay and i think that that is part of the problem yeah part of how why they find themselves where they are offensive yeah so i'll take your word for yeah uh the last thing we can end on a a lighter note here uh did you see that jordan milada got uh the nomination did you did get yes yes yeah so we've got we've got the uh the announcement up here um i mean you covered jordan mylotta from the very beginning i i i got out there in 2019.

So when I got to the Eagles, when I was on the, when I started on the Eagles beat, Jordan Milato was recovering from back surgery. And then when he did make his return, he was just getting torched by Joe O'sman every day in practice. And you know, I'll tell the listeners a funny story about this. I think it was my first day covering Eagles training camp. And I come in and I knew better. I, you know, check my ego at the door, right?

And I'm talking to our former colleague, Jeff McLean. And he's like, what are you thinking about writing today? And again, I checked my ego at the door. I knew better than to say like Carson Wentz or, you know, I mean, you name Jason Kelsey, Lane Johnson. I knew not to name a big player. I thought, I'm going to write about Sidney Jones, you know, the cornerback that needed to have a good summer. You know, he had coming off the injury. I thought that was like a good under the radar pick for the new guy.

And Jeff goes, I mean, he was a second round pick, you know, like, how about Joe O'sman for you today? Oh, okay. You know, like, how about we start you with, like, the training camp darling that nobody's ever heard of? But, again, and I always tell a story, though. I was much to say, I always tell journalism students this story because I always tell him, like, you need to write the 90th guy on the roster, like, he's the star quarterback. And I will always appreciate you because you sent me some contacts to help me write a good

Joe Osmond story. Good God, I did. Yeah, and you told me that his, you helped me figure out that his name, his real name is not Joe. Okay. And now, I mean, I should remember this, but, but yeah, I remember I wrote the story. I wrote Joe O'Sman, like he was a star quarterback, and it was, yeah, his real name is Edmund Eugene O'Sman III.

Well, how about that? Yeah. And wonder what he's doing today. Well, he's probably telling his friends that he was destroying Jordan Milata in training camp back in the day. So, yeah, it just is. I think that it puts into context, like, how remarkable Milita story is. And it's not a surprise.

I think it's well-deserved that he's the not thing. Gordon had a lot of adjusting to do, not just learning the game of football, but the whole mindset and the pain and the fatigue and all that. I mean, he was, yes, he played Australian rules rugby or whatever the hell it was, but that's nothing like playing in the NFL, you know, and I really think he struggled those first couple years. Yeah. I mean, he would admit at the end of a training camp session, oh, I'm, I'm knackard, you know.

Yeah, but say his body needed to. time to adjust. But I think just if you grow up playing football, you accept certain things as normal. And I think it was like dropping him into a different dimension, you know, or something. It was all foreign to him. And to be able to overcome that as well as he did, I mean, you don't see a lot of stories like that for a reason. There are guys in every sport that have the physical tools to play that sport. But there's so much more to it than that. And, yeah, it's been one of the most incredible stories

in the history of the Eagles, probably. Yeah, I mean, especially with as talented as he is, you kind of do wonder if they'll ever make a movie about his story. Good thought. You know, because he's, this will be a good one to close the show out on, actually. Nick Siriani was talking about how talented Jordan Milato was today. And he said, I've had two players that have appeared on the masked singer.

So Jordan Milata is one of them. Can you or anybody in the chat, guess who else? Nick Siriani has coached that has been on the masked singer. I can give you some hints because this is going to be a tough one. I think we have a super chat, so I'll buy you some time by reading the super chat here. This is from CDP. He says, should we trade Siriani for Tomlin? No, I don't think Tomlin.

God, no. No, I don't think Tomlin would be the, and I like Mike Tomlin. fun in the press conferences because he's better but no I don't think that's the same same yeah and Mike Tomlin I think is probably toward his expiration date at least in Pittsburgh maybe he can reinvent himself the way Andy Reid did in Kansas City but he needs to do something very different if and listen this is we need to acknowledge at the top that this is crazy that we're even talking about this but if the Eagles were to trade Nick Siriani there are coaches I think would make sense I don't I don't think Tomlin is the answer.

No. All right. So do you, I bought you some time. Do you have any guesses? Ah. It's a wide receiver. Wide receiver. That plays for the Chargers.

Was he with the Chargers when Nick was there? He was. I see it in the chat. Oh. You want me to tell you? Put you out of your misery here. We've got... Probably so.

Yeah, I'm not... Keenan Allen. Keenan Allen. Yeah. I would not have gotten... Yeah, it's surprising. I didn't know Keenan Allen could sing. I'm going to have to look that up on YouTube.

Very interesting. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's going to do it for the PHY Eagle Show. I appreciate you joining this less. Good to be here. I guess I appreciate Bo for, you know, making me rip the Band-Aid off on my first hosting experience.

And really, shout out to Lindsay for guiding me through this whole process because, you know, it's a little bit harder in the host chair than I thought it was going to be. Sure. So, yes. But appreciate you guys all sticking with us. And, yeah, thank you to Bo for the interview from Malcolm. Yep, that's going to do it. And as always, thank you, Lindsay. We love you.