PHLY Philadelphia Eagles Podcast - Eagles NFL Draft sliding door scenarios: Justin Jefferson or Jalen Reagor — and more

Episode Date: July 3, 2025

How would Eagles history be different with different draft picks? Zach Berman and Fran Duffy look at recent Eagles draft history to see what would have happened if the franchise took a different player. If the Eagles drafted Justin Jefferson, would they ever have landed DeVonta Smith and A.J. Brown? There would not be a Nick Foles statue if Russell Wilson was the pick. But what about a Super Bowl? Who would the franchise quarterback have been if Ricky Williams was the pick? Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Happy July 4th weekend here on the PHY Eagle Show. I'm Zach Berman. That's Fran Duffy. I don't see a door in Fran Duffy's background. If Bo was here, we would see that. We would see the door in his background. And it might be a sliding door. And that's what we're talking about today on the P.H.O.E.E.

Sponsored by True Mark Financial Credit Union. We appreciate True Mark Financial Credit Union. This is a fun conceit for the show, Fran. And something when I was gone. You guys were talking about you and Fran. I'm sorry, you and Bo. And now we get to dedicate a full episode to it. So I can give the elevator pitch.

But how about you tell the listeners, like what's behind the sliding doors episode of the Ph. LY Eagles show. Yeah, we did the episode a couple weeks ago, Bo and I, where we kind of like, let's go through Fran's old notes on Eagles draft picks and players on the Eagles roster. As we were going through it, he said, oh, well, what if we did something where if you do Jalen Rager, let's compare it to Justin Jefferson? And they said, oh, well, if we're going to do that, let's just make that a whole episode. We could pick different examples of that through recent Eagles history. And so he said, all right, let's do that for when I go away. This is Beau. You guys do

that for when I'm away. That'll make for a fun episode. So, no, excited to chop this up. This will be interesting. And I should also say that if you continue watching for these next few weeks. We will have a day when we have a what if day around the network, right? So all the different beats, including the Eagles, we'll be looking at at like what could have happened. So some of these sliding door scenarios across Eagles history will come up into what if. We are focusing specifically today on NFL draft scenarios, right? So if the Eagles took this player instead of that player, what would have happened? And what's going to be fun here is we'll, you know, Fran, who is meticulous in his scouting reports and meticulous in his organization, has all those old scouting reports that he can draw on.

And then we'll both kind of talk about what would have happened, the ramifications, right? Because sometimes you might make the better pick in terms of the player, but it could actually have negative down the road ramifications because you wouldn't end up with that player, with this player. And that's, look, I am by no means. Is it a synophile? is I hope I didn't use the term incorrectly. Is a cineophile someone who likes movies? It is. Yeah, I think that's correct, right?

Okay. I like movies, but I wouldn't call myself a cinophile. But I'm familiar with the concept of sliding doors, right? That if you got into this door in the subway, your life would be like this. If you didn't get into the door in the subway, your life would be like that. Right. And so we'll do that with the Eagles version. And we will start with probably the one.

that's most discussed during the past decade. It's a high button issue, and it kind of fits into what I was saying where maybe the ramifications wouldn't necessarily be perfect for the franchise, even if the pick might have been perfect for the franchise. So we'll start off with Jalen Rager over Justin Jefferson. What if Hallie Roseman had just looked at my mock draft that year?

And they should take Justin Jefferson at that spot. Instead, the Eagles go with Joan Rager. The floor is yours, Fran. I guess how did you look at both of these players coming out in the draft? Well, we remember that that receiver class was stacked coming out. You had a bunch of them go in round one. You had a bunch in round two.

It was a really talent-rich group. And the way that I had that class kind of stacked, you know, I had Jerry Judy and C.D. Lamb, same tier at the top. and they were very closely graded. Then I had a next tier where it was Jalen Rager, Henry Ruggs, Justin Jefferson, and KJ. Hamler, where the first three, Rager, Rugs, and Jefferson, all were really close.

Hamler was clear number four for that list. And it really just kind of comes down to like, all right, like, how do you, you know, which one do you like here? I had Rager slightly ahead. And here's why, let me go into just the highlights of some of my notes here from Jalen Rager. Remember this was the COVID draft of 2020.

To your starter and offense coordinator, Sonny Cumbes version of the air raid offense. He was primarily the number one receiver to the far right side. Also got some reps in the slot and in the backfield. Really loose, fluid, sudden athlete, high-end change direction skills and body control. The athletic upside was really high there. He's got great speed, multiple gears and the ability to take the top off the defense at a high level. Did not get pressed often.

But when he did, he showed the ability to defeat a jam with quick feet, surprising strength to handle a punch to the line of scrimmage and attack up field to hold the red line. And with his athleticism, he was a pretty sharp route runner. He showed that ability to work blind spots and get defenders to flip their hips on vertical routes down the field. He would explode out of breaks. He could create his own separation. The upside was all there as a route runner. And he showed the ability to track the football downfield.

But quarterback play often resulted in him not getting a chance to show it off consistently. He showed strong hands as a hands catch, a really confident attacking the ball in the air. And I liked the versatility as well. They would line them up all over the place, just find ways to get him the ball. He was outstanding after the catch, screens, jet sweeps, reverses. He was a weapon, and they would find different ways to get him the football. As far as negatives, his lack of size and strength did show up at times early on in the down, mid-rout, and at the catch point.

That was a big thing for me, a big learning point for me, honestly, with Jalen Rager, was playing through contact. It's something I talk a lot about with receivers, and that was a weak point for Jalen Rager, was that while he was, like, physically strong, he didn't always play through contact. all that well. And then those focus drops would show up on tape throughout the course of his career, was not a great blocker. And his urgency, I thought really suffered in 2019 as that team and as that offense really

struggled. I thought that it kind of went downhill as the season went on. My final summary on Rager, explosive athlete who can work vertically and be a weapon down the field while also being a gadget guy from the slot and the backfield, a dynamic skill set and provides an offense with a shot in the arm. I'd love to see him continue to improve as a route runner and against press coverage where he flashed ability. He's got starting potential in the NFL with a high floor as a role player. My final comp on him was John Ross, who obviously went in the top 10 was a high pick, but it did not work out with the Cincinnati Bengals.

Now, with Justin Jefferson, I thought he had a higher floor, and I thought that there was a higher ceiling there, but I thought that Rager had a better chance to hit his ceiling than Jefferson, if that makes sense. I, again, had them very closely graded. But here was my report on Justin Jefferson. I give the highlights from the report. Two-year starter for the Tigers, prime almost exclusively a slot player as a junior, with some reps lined up tight as a wing or in the backfield to create mismatches

for him underneath. Solid size across the board. I thought he was quicker than fast. Smooth, graceful athlete, ideal body control, change direction, and balance. Every movement has a purpose with this kid, a very deliberate route runner who's constantly working to set defenders up and shake free.

He worked in a number of tools to do that. I started to go on a long tangent, all the things he did as a route runner. I'll save that for another day. Does a nice job settling into soft spots, his own coverage. Did a lot of work over the middle of the field. No issues dealing with contact, mid-rout,

or at the catch point. What I talked about with Rager, that was not the issue here with Jefferson. He was damn near automatic catching the football. Strong, confident hands, can reel in throws away from his frame, could take a hit while maintaining possession of the ball. He's got some shake to him,

decisive after the catch, very competitive kid gives good effort as a blocker inside. He would dig out linebackers and safeties routinely despite his frame. Now the downside, not a burner who was going to be viewed as a consistent vertical thread. I remember he ran a 4-4-6 at the pro day, and that was a big surprise. No one really thought that he was a 4-4 guy during that pre-draft process, and he showed that off at the pro day. Did not see any reps of him, did not see many reps of him, rather, against press coverage. And while he's got the tool set to be able to win early, you just didn't see it often in college and not a guy who was going to be breaking a lot of tackles after the catch.

Can he win on the outside in the NFL? That was the one big question I wrote in the final notes. And my summary may never be an all pro and viewed as a dominant number one receiver. So much for that. But this is a rock solid player whose game translates extremely well to the NFL. He played exclusively in the slot, but he's a consistent separator who was extremely confident at the catch point and competitive from snap to finish. High floor with a pretty high ceiling, I compared him to Keenan Allen.

So those are my notes there on Justin Jefferson and Jalen Rager. Well, first off, outstanding notes. That's someone who knows that a scout right there. So some context here for Eagles fans, if you're watching on July 3rd right now, I imagine you're an Eagles fan, or you're just a big friend, Duffy Draft fan, is at the time the Eagles had Zachertz and Dallas Gotter. They were not, you know, moving on from Zach Gertz at that point. Dallas scottered, they wanted to be a bigger part of the offense.

Eagles thought they were in a win now window. And it was important to them to play more 12 personnel. That was a big talking point that offseason. The second thing, too, is that this is probably a bit misguided. Their top receiver the year before was Greg Warg, who was like a spot-only guy, right? And so where the Eagles felt they had their biggest need was on the outside. They had signed to Sean Jackson. He got hurt, right?

Al-Shon Jeffrey was, you know, not what they had wanted to be at that point. The need was on the outside. And so this was an example of a team not just evaluating the prospect, but evaluating the fit. And they were very focused on finding the outside receiver. And the thought was that Justin Jefferson was a slot-only receiver or a primarily a slot receiver. So that was the context in that draft. And they,

if you also remember, that was around the time when Tyree Kill was really kind of taking over in the NFL. And, you know, it's a copycat league. We know that. And so if you can get that vertical element to stretch the defense, right,

what does that do? Especially when you have Goddard and Ertz in the middle of the field. So that's, that's kind of the Eagles context at the time. And then the fascinating thing is this, Clearly, we can both agree the Eagles got the pick wrong, right? I mean, Justin Jefferson. I think everyone would agree with that.

J. Owen Rager did not work out here in Philadelphia. But Howie Roseman, to his credit, did not let one mistake compound. And he goes back. He takes Devante Smith. Then he goes back thereafter and he trades for A.J. Brown. Now the Eagles have perhaps the best wide receiver combination in the league is, Am I an opi optimist, if that's the term we're using, a polypositivity, whatever we want to say. If I suggest that in a twisted way, this pick actually worked out for the Eagles because their course of action at wide receiver might have been much different had they not, or had they taken Justin Jefferson.

So I was thinking about this earlier today. And we had to remember for 2021, they had the sixth pick going into that draft. They traded it out, traded out with Miami the weeks before, traded from six to 12, picked up the 22 first round pick in the process. And then on draft day, they trade up with the Cowboys from 12 to 10. Cowboys trade back. They take Michael Parsons. The Eagles trade up.

They take Devante Smith. So my initial, like, thought was, all right, well, if the Eagles have Justin Jefferson at that point, are they going to trade up and take Devante Smith? Are they going to take Devonte Smith at all at that point in the process? And then I'm looking at who else was available. and I'm thinking like, all right, like, I don't know that they would have taken Michael Parsons. And I'm look at some of the other players. And I'm like, yeah, like they had a need at defensive end at that point.

Like Brandon Graham was getting a little bit older. You didn't know what Derek Barnett was quite at that point. You know, could they go defensive end? There wasn't really anybody there. And, you know, my memory at this point, like it was a little cloudy. I don't think there was anyone else where I'm like, oh, yeah, they would have gone this direction. So I honestly think that they might have still taken Devante Smith, you know, in that spot. Obviously, then you're not taking AJ Brown the following year.

And then now it just comes down to, would you rather have Justin Jefferson on his rookie contract at this age? Or would you rather have A.J. Brown? The Eagles got two Super Bowl appearances and got a Lombardi Trophy. So you wouldn't say you don't want to mess with that, Juju, and let's leave things as is. But I do think there's probably a case to be made that you probably want Jefferson in that spot over AJ. You don't have to pay him that money right off of that. That's fair. That's fair.

I do think it's reasonable to say, though, that the Eagles recovered well. from that spot. Yeah, no question. No question. And so let's stay in the 2020 draft. Thankfully, we're past COVID or past the worst part of COVID, they'll say. I kind of stepped into it there. But let's go back to that one.

Yeah, let's go back to the COVID draft. The second round, the Eagles are on the clock. and there are people in that room who really like Jeremy Chin. And Jeremy Chin could be that chest piece in the Eagles secondary. 6-3 runs well. But there are some high-ranking people,

especially the owner, who really like J-Hartz. And said, you know, don't, if you believe in the quarterback, you take the quarterback. So the Eagles go J-Lan Hertz at that spot. And it wasn't like a consensus pick in that room. Nope. What if? What if what's the sliding door scenario and what's your evaluation?

We heard your evaluation a few weeks ago of John. Yeah. But of what's the scenario had they gone, Jeremy Chin? Yeah, I mean, I actually was not super high on Jeremy Chin. I think he was my eighth safety that year. I saw ability. I don't want to go through like the entire report, but just going reading back through it. Like you saw the athleticism. He was big. He was long. He looked the part. And he tested really well. He had a solid senior bowl week. So there was a lot to like with him during the pre-draft process. He was really strong and physical, like he'd come downhill, defend the run, you know, did a lot that he really liked. My big concern with him was that he was a more reactive

player than proactive, right? To me, like he didn't always play as fast. And to me, that was a big concern for a guy coming from a lower level of competition. Remember, he played for Southern Illinois. So, you know, you're watching him at a lower level in the FCS. And if he's not seeing thing super fast there and he's already the jump in play speed's already going to be big. And that's for guys that do see it well. Like it's going to be a big jump. It's going to be even bigger jump for him. So, you know, for me, like I thought that he had tools there to be great,

but I thought that he was more likely to be a role player than, you know, a pro bowl safety. And I think if you're taking a safety in the second round, like you're hoping he's going to be, you know, that kind of an impact player. And so I had concerns there. I would have, I would have been a little bit worried if that was the Eagles pick there in the second round. I think take and, you know, go back a couple weeks, you can find my notes from from jalen Hertz like you mentioned to me this that was obviously it turned out to be the

right pick but in the moment uh i liked that pick more as well um you know i think in terms of jalen like it was not a finished product and clearly development was going to be needed it was a risky selection certainly after uh months after paying uh carson wince when you paid them but i do think that that that was the right choice uh in the moment also like the probably like one of the single most like will stick in my brain like for the rest of my life moments, you know, working for the Eagles, because that was the remote COVID draft, like you mentioned. So I'm in my basement. And just the way that we were going about things was like, all right, like we were on a live

show. And it was like, Fran, the pick is Jalen Hertz. We're coming to you in 10 seconds. It's like I had like 10 seconds to compute that. All right. They just took a quarterback in the second round. I have to turn around and try and sell this essentially to the fans who had the pitchforks and the torches out ready to react to that selection.

I like that anecdote there. So let's, so let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's go back here, right? Um, had, had they not taken, uh, Joan Heardt, had they gone with Jeremy Chan, Carson West would have been unimpeded in, in 2020. Now perhaps that, that didn't affect Carson Wentz as, as much as, has been speculated. Um, perhaps, uh, without, uh, uh, without, uh, that jail and Hertz. I know, perhaps he'll still move on from Carson Wentz the following year.

And they just go in the draft or going free agency and try to get a quarterback. But, you know, that's, I'm curious, your perspective, if they have Carson Wentz that year without Jalen Hertz, what's the ramification in 2020 and in 2021? Yeah, I mean, the mental gymnastics of that are difficult, right? Because, look, if we're being honest, I think that it did affect both players. And when I say both players, I mean, I think it affected Carson. And I think it affected Jaylen too. Like I don't think that was an easy situation for Jaylin to step into either.

Like this is a guy that, you know, you go pretty high in the draft. You go in the second round. You were a big time player in college football. And we remember like how he was used his rookie year. Like you go from being the guy to like you're kind of like a gadget player. And they're just trying to get you out there. And we remember those games, those reps in the empty stadium at the link against the Rams where he's in the backfield with Carson. you were just trying to find spots to get him on the field.

You know, that's a tricky situation and a weird dynamic, certainly. But he came out on the other side better for it. How much did it affect Carson? That's tough. My guess is that it did affect him. Now, was that the sole purpose for his downfall? No. I mean, obviously there were other factors of play.

But I think when you look at Carson, yeah, I think things that could have been a little bit different, you know, had that selection not had been made for him? Yeah, I see what you mean there. I do think he was declining, but I think there was a mental part of that that definitely affected it. And look, I always say that, like, one of my shortcomings as a reporter,

no pun intended, is the 2020 season because I wasn't in the locker room, right? But from what I had heard, Gowan's presence, like, was very much felt. was very much felt. So, yeah. Yeah, so I think that by genuine not being there, maybe Carson would feel further emboldened and that mental block wouldn't have happened.

It's a fascinating, fascinating, fascinating, fascinating sliding door scenario. If you want to know another fascinating sliding door scenario, make sure you hang with us after the break. because what if, for instance, our colleague, Vinnie Curry, was not with the Eagles? Find out in a second. I'm going to jump, here you go, I'm going to jump right into it here. I want to tell everybody about our friends. My internet is a bit slow here in pulling this up. I apologize.

I have it right here in front of me, and I'm excited to tell everybody. about You're a rockin money. Yeah, about rocking money. Because, man, sorry, when it comes to spending, sometimes it's out of sight, sometimes it's out of mind. That daily coffee habit. I was up late last night.

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All right, friend, here's an impression of me from yesterday. Okay. That's me walking into my house, sweating like a pig, because it is feeling like a sauna in there. Yeah, I mean, you know how it is. This time of year, this Philly heat, it's no joke. So what do I do? Like, do I go jump in a lake?

It's not going to happen. So I just got a bunch of ice, like held it, rubbed it on my face, stuffed it down my shirt, stuffed it down my pants, the only way I could think to cool down. I mean, stop being the stereotypical dad, though. Like, turn on the AC. It's time to fire that thing up. I don't want to be, I want to waste money, be energy efficient. Well, look, instead of icing yourself out or jumping into a lake, you could just check out

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So I need Pico. those power to be strong this weekend. And I certainly don't want ice anywhere that Bo was talking about. There's no natural transition here to the next one. Other than- Can I ask one quick question real quick before we put the ribbon on the Wins thing? So let's say Carson Wentz still once out after the 2020 season. The Eagles don't have Jalen Hertz at that point.

What do you think the Eagles most likely reaction is, at that point. You have to trade Carson Wentz. Do you go to the veteran market? That was the year that Matthew Stafford was traded. That was the year that obviously Jared Gough was traded. There was initially when the Aaron Rogers stuff started with Green Bay. He didn't get traded until a year later. Deshawn Watson didn't get traded until the next offseason as well. So Russell Wilson was starting to get a little cloudy with him, but that trade didn't happen for another year still. So you were still a year out from those. So really it's Stafford, Gough, I guess there were still some bridge

quarterbacks like Bridgewater was on the market at that point. Or are you going into like Trey Lance, Justin Fields, Zach Wilson territory? You were at the sixth pick. What do you think they would have done at that point? Yeah, I mean, I think they would have probably tried to trade a hall to get to Zach Wilson number two is my guess. And I don't know if Joe Douglas was ever going to move out of that pick.

But that's my guess for what they would have done. Now, maybe short of that, they stick at six and take Justin Fields. I don't know what their evaluation was on fields. Maybe they go Mac Jones at that spot at six. Maybe, you know, they would have been the team that moved up the three instead of San Francisco. Can you take Trey Lance after you just took Carson Wentz? It's a good point. Probably not, but.

Right. Yeah. I think that's a that's a fair point. I don't know if they would have gone the bridge quarterback route, although, you know, there is. So had Philip Rivers retired yet in Indianapolis? Yeah. Yeah. Because, yeah, because he was traded once.

So. Oh, so. If Doug was fired and Sirianni's hired, Syriani's hired, Syriani's hired. My guess is, okay. Yeah, they bring Philip Rivers to Philly. That's my guess for what would happen. Interesting. Yeah.

Okay. So the little rivers is coming. Got it. Yeah. That's a good one. But let's stay on quarterbacks here because this is a fascinating one. And this is part of why the Eagles took jail in Hertz. Because in 2012, this is not revisionist history.

Inside that building, they loved Russell Wilson. They loved him. We've heard Daniel Jeremiah, the former Eagle Scout, now NFL network analyst, talked about the report the Eagles had on him. We've heard Joe Banner talk about this. I spoke to Jeffrey Lurie about this. And, you know, Howie Rosemans referenced this. The Eagles thought that they could get Russell Wilson in the third round.

They thought he would fall to them in the third round. They felt confident that was going to be the pick. Seattle jumps them, takes Russell Wilson. Of course, the Eagles end up drafting Nick Foles. We'll talk about how that worked out. But what if our colleague Vinnie Curry was not the pick with the second round pick and instead the eagles took russia wilson what would have happened would there be a russellson statue outside lincoln financial field and and uh that's a long time ago but what scouting reports

can you dig up from back then yeah so this was actually i was this was my first like uh draft cycle where i was in the building i my first summer was the summer of 2011 so my first like pre draft cycle was the 2020 12 draft and this was actually i was writing i was taking notes on players but i wasn't like writing reports. I hadn't learned how to, you know, how to write reports yet. And so everything was kind of like, just like a quick little one-liners. Vinnie was my fourth defensive end that year. I had him ahead of Nick Perry, Whitney Merciless. I loved his production. I loved his first step. I loved his motor. I loved how heavy his hands were. I was worried about some stiffness, just that athletically, the top end athleticism was a little bit of a concern, but I loved what I saw

from him down at the senior bowl. That was my first senior bowl trip. And another guy that was at that senior bowl was Russell Wilson. Now, Russell Wilson was my sixth quarterback that year. This was a good. Going back through the notes was really interesting because I love the athleticism, the leadership, the poise, the accuracy. I had them lower because of the size. I didn't have a lot of conviction, you know, there in terms of like, oh, like, I like this kid a lot. Basically the way I had it back then on my sheet was like, all right, if I really like a player, he's going to be highlighted in green. And if I was like, oh, like a little bit down on, it's like yellow. Right. And if I really didn't like a guy, it was red.

I had Brandon Whedon in yellow that year, and I had all these guys after him in green. I had Kirk Cousins in green. I had Brock Osweiler in green. I had Russell Wilson in green, and Nick Foles in green right after. Wilson right, falls right after Wilson. And it was like, yeah, like back then, I did not have the courage in my convictions that I certainly try to have now. And so it's an interesting kind of learning experience for me there. But yeah, the sliding doors of Russell Wilson to the Eagles.

in 2012. I mean, you're talking like franchise altering. Like does Andy Reid get fired next year? You know, after that? Like does Russell do enough to keep them a lot? Yeah, I'm curious if Wilson beats out Vic in training camp that year. Although I think they were going with Vic no matter what. But, you know, Russell Wilson beats out Matt Flynn and Tafar's Jackson in Seattle.

So that's, that's one thing to point out. But no Nick Foles. And so the Eagles don't have that background with Nick Foles. they don't end up bringing Nick Foles back. But perhaps, like you said, perhaps Andy Reid stays with Russell Wilson. Perhaps Russell Wilson is the franchise quarterback because he was absolutely a franchise quarterback in Seattle. Perhaps Russell Wilson is that franchise quarterback for the Eagles. And he's their quarterback for the next decade.

And like the whole 2010s are different. So much changes. The amazing thing is how this worked out Because the Eagles have their first Super Bowl right now Because of Nick Foles Or not because of Nick Foles In large part because of Nick Foles. Nick Foles is an icon in the city

He's got a statue outside the stadium If Nick Foles Goes to Kansas City that year Or Seattle that year, let's say, right? I don't know Seattle would have taken him The entire course of Eagles history is different. So this is one of those sliding doors scenarios that ended up working out for the Eagles, but I think it would have worked out favorably because I just, I have strong conviction about Russell Wilson.

I, my kind of Russell Wilson background is I was covering the University of Virginia and Virginia tech. Yep. And there were three really good quarterbacks in the state of Virginia, like three outstanding quarterbacks in the state of Virginia coming out of high school in 2007 or 2008. thereabouts. There was Tyrae Tower, Peter Lalek, and Russell Wilson. So Tyra Taylor goes to Virginia Tech. Peter Lalik, who's like, you're 6'5, big arm quarterback. He goes to Virginia, even though Russell Wilson, he went to collegiate high school in Richmond, Virginia, an hour, hour, 10 minutes from UVA, who played baseball at Kyle Long, right? And Howie Long's telling how grow about this guy.

He does not get that Virginia spot, and he instead goes to NC State. So I had been following Russell Wilson quite a bit and followed it from NC State to Wisconsin, but I believe in Russell Wilson, the player, and I think the Eagles would have really good with Russell Wilson. The idea of, let's say, Russell Wilson is the backup as a rookie, you know, so everything plays out the same in 2012 for the Eagles. The record's the same. Eagles make a change, head coach afterwards.

Chip Kelly comes in. Russell Wilson running the Chip Kelly offense in 2013 and 2014 and them saying, like, we're probably going to stick with this guy. I think that would have been very interesting, too. Who knows how the story changes there as well? Good point. Now, of course, the other part of this year that we should mention is that we have an awesome co-host on the PHLI Eagles post-game show.

and a fun guy to hang out with. No question. Super Bowl champ and Great Eagle, Vinnie Curry. So the pick also brings Vinnie Curry to Philadelphia. So here at PHY, we're happy with how that turned out. Now, let's go to 2019 second round. The Eagles take J.J. Arthago White's side. That catch radius, right?

Now, fans often say, like, they should have gone DK. Metcalf. My understanding is that D.K. Metcalf had a medical red flag from the Eagles and was not an option for them in the second round. So they were actually choosing between Paris Campbell and J.J. Arthago, White Side. But in this sliding door scenario, let's say the talent's too strong. And it's like, you know, okay, doctors, I hear you. But if this guy does play, then he's, he's going to be awesome. What if they took D.K. Metcad with that spot instead of J.J. Arthago, White side. And what? And, and. And what did your scouting reports say? So going back through my notes from that year, DK Metcalf was my wide receiver won. And that took the injury into account. That took the injury into account because of what he could be if he were healthy.

I do have like a designation for like our like severe like red flag, whether that's, you know, personality driven. But like non-football reason, an injury included. And you got to remember, like he had a C3 fracture in his neck. Like he was out for the year with a broken neck. And so the Eagles were not the only team, certainly, to have him off the board. And that's why he fell to the latter stages of the second round.

But here are my notes on Metcalf, two-year starter at left wide receiver for the rebels, great height, muscular, well-proportioned frame, freaky catch radius. Impressive linear athlete, especially given his frame, he looks graceful in the open field. He can get the top speed extremely quickly. And when he gets into the open field, he can definitely work vertically down the field. Able to track the ball over the shoulder, made some really impressive grabs down, in the vertical pass game, large, soft hands can pluck throws away from his frame with relative ease. With his blend of size, strength, and speed, he can definitely be a factor after the catch.

And he's got an edge to him. He's big and strong enough to physically dominate corners on the perimeter. A lot of negatives, though. He was a little bit too deliberate and will dance too much, trying to shake a press corner. He relied on his physical tools to try and win against press and try and win as a route runner. He ran a very limited route tree and he ran almost all of them primarily, from one side of the field from the far left side. So he needed to improve from a technical aspect as a route runner. He was not clean or efficient with his footwork in any stage before the catch point. He was known to push off.

He drew a lot of offensive PI flags. He would turn around early to find the football. We talked about like late hands with A.J. Brown. Like that was the opposite with D.K. Metcalf did not always look natural trying to play the ball in the air. And for a guy that would win in contested situations that would need to win in contested situations, his results weren't great there. He was not like this like, oh, yeah, like go up to top over guys and win consistently.

And he didn't great, they show great sideline awareness. And this was a guy that was going to play along the sideline. So I actually wrote down, I had like a three-headed comp for him just kind of showing like the wide variance of outcomes here. He wrote down Julio Jones. He wrote down Josh Gordon. He wrote down Kevin White. And it's like, yeah, like he's got this, you know, this we've seen guys like this with this profile come in. And if they hit, they hit.

And if they don't, you're going to be left. wanting in a big, big way. Now, here's the final summary here on Metcalf. I see the upside. The tools are there to be dominant, and he may reach that plateau, but he needs a lot of work to get there. His route running was a major concern. He was inconsistent playing the ball.

He's just not natural in many of the ways that he needs to be right now in order to be a starter. Maybe that can be coached, but I am concerned. That's not even taking the injury into account, but the ceiling is sky high. So that was my report on D.K. Metcalfe. Now, JJ Arthago-Whiteside, he was my wide receiver 22 that year. Wow. He was not a guy.

Yeah, they should have listened to you. They should have been watching. They should have been watching your show. I am on the wrong side of this. I'm definitely not doing a flex there. But JJ, I think of white side. I'll flex for you, Fran. I appreciate the flex for it.

There's no need, no need. There you go. I'm not in the camera there, but yeah. Flex is too strong and get in the camera. J.J. lined up on the outside. two-year starter, played all three wide receiver positions, above average height, really long, thick frame for an outside receiver with the size to assert his will at the catch point.

Adequate with downfield speed, seemed to have a good idea of what he was doing as a route runner. He know how to use his size to an advantage, both mid-rout and then also at the catchpoint, extensive family history and personal history of playing basketball. That showed up on the football field, as automatic as it got in jumpball situations. Did a great job playing through contact, really competitive with the ball in his hands. to bring to the ground. It gives pretty good effort as a blocker. They did a lot with him as a blocker. He would be chasing plays from the backside and, you know, trying to get guys to the ground. Just not an explosive athlete, more of a buildup speed guy on vertical routes, had issues

defeating press coverage from a skill set standpoint. I talked about with D.K. Metcalf, he lacked refinement, but he had all the tools. JJ had refinement but didn't have the tools, right? So it's like, all right, you're talking about like floor and ceiling there. He struggled to sink his hips at the top of the break point and create separation. The only issue he had at the catch point are throws near the ground, where he had to let go and try and attack balls that were, you know, down closer to the ground. He just struggled going low for the football.

My final summary, big body kid who excelled at going up and winning through contact, had athletic limitations that won't be overcome and he'll never be a vertical threat. For that reason, I don't see him as an ideal starter in the NFL. Tough enough to play on special teams and a guy you want on your roster should be a strong fourth-ride receiver, but not a guy that I would rule out of earning more. board down the line. I compared him to Devin Funches. Yeah, this was a tough one, certainly as a cell, but I understand because he was off the, I mean, at that point, like, when you have the medical stuff, like a medical flag, he's just literally like off the board. Like the guy's on the board one day,

and then he's off the board. He's not even in consideration at that point. And that's kind of what the situation was with the Eagles with Metcalf and with a lot of teams with Metcalf. Yeah. So, so some context here. The Eagle scouting staff stayed up late at night to watch JJ Arthago Whiteside, which other teams were not doing. So they knew about Stanford wide receivers when other teams did not. You just

had to stay up later, Fran. You would have been your second one. Now, yeah, I mean, look, the Eagles missed on this pick. They were looking for they, and that happens, you know, and interestingly, Jeffrey Lurie says the player that they really missed on was Terry McLaren, who went early

third round. Right, D.K. Metcalf, my understanding, like you said, is that, with D.K. Meckf, it wasn't like they didn't think he was a good player. It's just, yeah, you're either on the board or you're off. And then, you know, there's also, but it's the subjectiveness is like, okay, you feel comfortable taking this medical risk in this round, but not in this round. So second round, you're not on the board, right? It's similar, like Trey Smith, for instance, with the Kansas State.

Yeah, right. He's someone who would have been first or second round pick, you know, presumably. But the chiefs get him in, what, sixth round? because of the medical red flag. So I don't know how much this would have altered the course of Eagles history, although certainly 2019 would have been considerably different. Eagles had just a bad wide receiver room then. And, you know, that was the year when Greg Ward was their top receiver, right?

2020, Travis Fulgin was their top receiver. So maybe, look, Carson Wentz never really had that true number one once Alshon Jeffrey went into decline. and perhaps D.K. Metcalfs that player, and perhaps that changes the trajectory for, you know, for Carson Wentz. But I'm curious to see where this sliding door scenario would have gone. You said it on a recent show. I think it was last week about the Doug Peterson coaching staff versus the Nick Siriani coaching staff and how Siriani's coaching staff is very, like, very good in the developmental phase, you know, in terms of coaching. Whereas the Doug Peterson staff was not as strong when it came to development across the board, not just ever. wide receiver. D.K. Metcalf needed a lot of development. Seattle, like, brought him along slow.

They basically, like, asked him to run three different routes and everything was like straight line, like running a straight line this way, running a straight line that way, running a straight line that way. And they had to kind of bring him along. And even still to this point, it's still coming along in a lot of these areas. So it's not like some sure thing that D.K. Metcalf was going to become D.K. Metcalfe, if he had been the Eagle second round pick that year as well. if you stick around here for a few minutes, you will find out how Eagles history would be different. If Kyle Hamilton was the Eagles first round pick instead of Jordan Davis, hang with us. On this holiday weekend, let me tell everybody about True Mark Financial, true Mark financial, true friend of the show.

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Visit Empire Today slash pHLY for full details. So it is April 28th, 2022. Howie Roseman is navigating the first round. He's been talking to John Robinson, the GM of the Tennessee Titans, about acquiring A.J. Brown. There's a big need of wide receiver. There's also a big need at safety. Eagles are there. They have a mid first round pick,

but Kyle Hamilton's lingering on the board. So is Jordan Davis, national champion defense tackle, Combined Freak of Nature. You don't find guys like this walking around very often. Howie Roseman places a call with Nick Casario of the Houston Texans. And he moves up to get the number 13th. overall pick, and he's choosing between Jordan Davis and Kyle Hamilton.

And the Eagles' organizational emphasis is on the defensive line. And Howie Roseman takes Jordan Davis one pick later. The Baltimore Ravens take Kyle Hamilton. Right. Fran Duffy, your scouting reports on both those players, and the sliding door scenario, if the Eagles were to take, Kyle Hamilton in the first round of the draft. Yeah, I mean, I had Jordan Davis who grew on me as the process went on.

You know, I try not to let the combine, you know, and what happens there affect me too much. Like, you know, move the needle too far. I will say that Davis is one where it definitely did swing me because they're just, as you mentioned, like there aren't many people in the history of the draft in recent memory who are that big who tests like that, right? And so when you see that upside and also when you combine that with the character and And like Jordan Davis, like, yeah, like there were certainly issues with his weight and things like that at Georgia. But everyone you talked to was with him in that building over the course of his career there.

It's four years down there in Athens. It's like, yeah, he's a great kid. Everybody loves him. Everybody loves being around him. It's not a work ethic thing. You know, he's just got to get some things in order there. You know, I think that when you're looking at Jordan Davis, like there was reason to believe that, hey, you know what? I know he didn't always show it in college, but this guy's got the ability to reach his upside.

For me, just kind of looking at the pluses and minuses from my report, rare size, tall, thick, hulking frame, very unproductive throughout his career. But he had alien-like movements for a guy his size, tested like one of the best athletes in Combine history and showed better range that you expect for a guy that looks like he does. Some of those plays, we all remember the play that he made against Buffalo in 2023 where he's chasing Josh Allen out of bounds. There were a few of those plays throughout his career at Georgia as well. He had power for days, pocket pusher, who slowly but surely, could impact the quarterback. He would just constantly just push and push, run his feet, and eventually get there. Strong as an ox, very tough to move off his spot in the run game. Did not have a deep array of moves as a pass rusher, didn't have a really developed pass rush plan,

as I like to mention, natural issues with leverage. You know, I had over six foot in a quarter. He had trouble with staying low. That said, he always attacked blocks with tight hands, really heavy handed on contact, who was, again, was just very tough to move. double teams, you can get them off a spot either. My final summary here for Jordan Davis, three-year starter at nose tackle and Kirby Smart Defense, who was platooned inside and was on the sideline for most third downs. But that's the extent of how he can be used in the, that's not the extent, rather, of how he can be used in the NFL.

Extremely strong and powerful. He wins with sheer mass and brute strength in college, and that will carry him over into the NFL. But he's also one of the most explosive athletic specimens in recent memory, fits best in a two-gap scheme for a defense that lives in lighter boxes where he can steal back gaps and make an impact in the run game. That's a given from day one. If he gets into a scheme that allows him to cut it loose and play up field more often, then the potential is there for him to be a dominant three-down player, good starter, ceiling to be a quality starter. That's just kind of verbiage

from my grading scale, high floor, high ceiling. So that's how I viewed Jordan Davis. He ended up being a top 15 player for me in this class. Now, my number four player in the class overall, was Kyle Hamilton. So to me, like, I did prefer Hamilton in that spot. And you mentioned, like, just the precility to go more towards the line of scrimmage is why the Eagles went this direction. But for me, for Kyle Hamilton, this is a guy that I noticed on film from his, like, freshman year on. You just see this guy flying around that Notre Dame secondary, which was just really, really taken aback by his skill set, rare size for the position, consistently chases down from the backside, very tough, physical, violent player. Athletic.

he had the suddenness to eat up ground and close fast. He was a little bit legy. There's a little bit of times where he looked a little bit stiff. I say leggy, like all arms and legs. Gears up and down on command, though, with ease. And he's able to govern his speed. There would be times where he'd be running the alley, you know, run and playing deep down the field.

And he'd come down close to the line of scrimmage. You see him speed up, speed down, come to balance. And then he's got to speed back up again. So the athleticism was all there. Change the numbers game in the box in a flash from depth. So he would go from A to B. And it's like, all right, it's a light box. then all of a sudden, bam, like he's downhill in a flash and he's there to be able to make the play.

Very good play strength. Stout on contact, very powerful striker as a tackler. He could get a little bit grabby mid-rout when he was in man-to-man coverage against tight ends and against bigger wide receivers. I thought wide receivers in the NFL would probably eat him up. Not a guy would probably want matched in the slot against wide outs all that often. But he was an enforcer over the middle versus crossing routes, showed that ability to impact the catch point.

And he was a finisher on the ball consistently, and had that ability to take the ball away from the offense in the run game, good angles to the football, attacks with pace and discipline, violent finisher, like I said, had the ability to meet ball carriers with his chest at full speed. The final summary there for Hamilton, to your starter in their quarter scheme there for the Irish where he played both safety spots, tall, long defensive back with the unique size for the position and traits to go with it. Explosive athlete who could eat up grass to close quickly on the ball, at his best

and zone coverage where he's both disciplined and rangey to disrupt the catch point. He's got the traits to match up against tight ends, but he's also shown some mixed results so far in man-to-man, thunderous alley defender who really improved as a tackler throughout his career. He's got a nose for the ball, plays with a violent, relentless demeanor. This is a starting safety who is best cast in a zone scheme, more of a traditional strong safety, who's at his best attacking the line of scrimmage, but he is not a liability in coverage whatsoever.

So I had a higher grade overall on Hamilton. There were questions a little bit about both. Obviously, you're talking about two non-primary positions when you're talking about like nose tackle versus and strong safety. But yeah, I had high grades on both players, but I like to have a little bit more. First off, outstanding. Outstanding scouting reports there. I am no friend Duffy. Quick to admit that.

But because this is all documented, back then, myself, Bo Wolf, Chia Copadia would rank our Eagles options. And I ranked Kyle Hamilton the number one Eagles option that year. And my summary was this. Don't overthink this. He's an elite player and could change the Eagles secondary. Hamilton checks so many boxes, production, size, range, instincts, ball skills. If the knock on him is an undesirable four times,

then it's easy to rationalize because speed does not appear to be an issue on the field. The teams have GPS data that could offer a more advanced measurement of his speed. Hamilton would be a dream scenario and would be one of the team's best players from the first day of training camp. Now, in my mock draft that year, I had the Eagles going with Jordan Davis. And in my draft grade,

I said, I would have gone with Kyle Hamilton, but I'm not knocking them for Jordan Davis because I understand the organizational philosophy. That's how I thought about it exactly. Yep. Yeah. And so it's the way they're always going to think

that things being equal or near equal, they'll go for the upside of the player on the line of scrimmage, whether it's the O line or the D line over the safety or the linebacker, the tight end, or the running back, right? It's simply, and it's served them well in the organization. The interesting thing is when you look at the sliding door scenario here, number one, they don't trade for C.J. Gardner Johnson that summer, right? You have Kyle Hamilton and Marcus Epps as your starting safeties, presumably.

Kyle Hamilton turns into, I still believe he's a different space. I think he's one of these players. He went to a great infrastructure in Baltimore, no doubt. But I think he's that good wherever he ends up. I agree. And I think the Eagles defense still makes the Super Bowl in 2022, right? Like, you know, it wasn't as if Jordan Davis propelled them there. The one, you know, so I think the side door scenario will be just fine for the Eagles, right?

And maybe even better. The one thing I'm curious about, and there's. There's really no way of saying this. It's like the human dynamic that comes with all the Georgia players. Jalen Carter is a blue chip player for the Eagles right now. Does Jalen Carter have the same fit here without Jordan Davis? That's probably a stretch, right? I said, I mean, Jordan, you know, Jalen Carter is probably one of these guys.

He's great wherever he goes. But that's probably the only like ramification that I could say makes me think more toward Jordan Davis than Kyle Hamilton, but I got to go Kyle Hamilton here. Yeah, I think I would agree with you. You know, I think that the, what Jordan has provided so far, you know, there's what we've seen over the last three years. The Eagles could find, you find that kind of player at other points, you know, in the draft, free agency, things like that.

And look, Howie has been said it on draft night that night was that if he, if he does not develop into an impactful pass rush, or this wasn't a good pick. You know, and I think when you're looking at what Hamilton has become, yeah, like he, he's become a better pro. Now, the interpersonal dynamics that you mentioned, you know, is Jordan Davis's lack of, is the lack of Jordan Davis presence? Like, does nobody, does NCOBY Dean, like, offset that?

Like, if Nikobe Dean's there, is that enough to continue to bring guys like Jalen Carter, are we overplaying that period anyway? I think that's a really interesting topic that obviously we can't answer. Yeah. Let's circle back to 2013. And we don't need to go into the signing door scenario here too much because it's, It's pretty clear. You know, the Eagles have the number four pick.

Lane Johnson is the player because the Miami Dolphins trade ahead of them and take Dion Jordan. My guess, and this is very informed speculation, is that Dion Jordan was the guy that they really targeted. That Chip Kelly really liked. He played for Chip Kelly. He had that long wingspan. I had Eagles going with Dion Jordan in my mock draft that year. Dolphins traded up, presumably to get past the Eagles, right? the Eagles, the dolphins, because there was that, that connection.

So the Eagles are with, with Lane Johnson. Lane Johnson is one of the best players in Eagles history. And it worked out swimmingly for the Eagles. So we know what that is. But I'm curious, just you as a draft evaluator, as a player evaluator, when you reflect on the Lane Johnson scouting report, what have you learned about, you know, I'm sure you went back today and read those reports. What have you learned about yourself looking at the Lane Johnson?

Johnson scouting report. Yeah, it's interesting because, you know, going back and that was, you had offensive tackles go one, two, and four in that class. So you don't see that very often. Eric Fisher from Central Michigan went number one to Kansas City. The Jaguars took Luke Jokal at number two out of Texas A&M, and then the Eagles take Lane Johnson at four. I was not a big Jokal fan at this point.

Now, this was only a couple years into me, like doing, like, you're writing these players up, you know, and kind of trying to set myself apart in this way. And I mentioned earlier, like the color coding from the previous draft from 2012, talking about those quarterbacks. And so it was green and yellow. I loved Eric Fisher and I loved Lane Johnson. I did not love Luke Jokal. I just did have that same conviction back then.

So even in my grading here, in my stack, I had Luke Jokel at one in yellow. And then I had Fisher in two in green, Lane Johnson at three in green, DJ Fluker at four in green. I really liked DJ Fluker as well. And yeah, I mean, when you're looking at three. looking at that that's certainly something to reflect on. I will say too in terms of like a learning experience, like Dionne Jordan was a good learning point for me because he was,

he was one of those first like physical specimens where like, man, like he could do so many different. I remember watching him and saying like, you see this six foot six, 235 pound like outside linebacker lining up in the slot and like, oh, they're disguising and he's going to drop to the deep half as a safety and like, listen, this is crazy. But at the end of the day, like, what does that mean in the NFL?

Like that he's not doing this in the NFL, right? And so this was a good learning experience for me there where you see, you know, the kind of learning from that and projecting that forward to like guys like Isaiah Simmons. And, you know, there's all different versions of like the positionless player. I would say Dion Jordan for me was definitely a good learning experience for players like that. That's that's really good insight there. And yeah, I mean, I, I remember going to the Fiesta Bowl that year. And I thought Dionne Jordan was going to be a really good player with that frame.

And probably what, you know, look, scheme matters. But clearly that worked out well for the Eagles. And I am curious too. So Lane Johnson, like I did a piece behind the Lane Johnson pick. My understanding is like Jeff Stoutland was just enthralled by him, you know, went through that private visit. And it was someone like, you know, Chip Kelly loved the athletic traits there. It just, just, just rare to find. And Lane was someone, he really moved up during the Combine process.

Oh, yeah. And that senior ball was huge. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, he was on, I think he was leaving Jacksonville to fly to New York for the New York Jets for a visit. And he said, like, cancel this visit. I'm not even going to be on the board when the Jets pick. And he was right about that.

And certainly that worked well, that worked out well for the Eagles. If everyone sticks around in overtime, friend, that was so ungraceful. I apologize. You know what? I thought you still brought the gusto. I thought you stuck the landing well. That's going to haunt me throughout the holiday week. Please don't let that haunt you through the fireworks.

The fireworks are going to go off and I'm going to be like, I butcher it overtime. Putschered overtime. So I'm going to try to make these next like five to eight minutes even better because of it. And this is one that you, I look, I didn't know Fran Duffy at 13 years old. I imagine you and I were similarly like big draft geeks. You probably did a better job evaluating the draft than I did then as you do now. But 1999 is a famous inflection point in Eagles history. number two pick overall.

The Eagles go with Donovan McNabb. Okay. And it changes the course of Eagles history. The mayor at the time wants Ricky Williams, WIP at the time, wants Ricky Williams. The New Orleans Saints offer a bounty to get up the trade for Ricky Williams. But no, Andy Reid wants Donovan. McNeap. So I can't imagine you have a scouting report to read here. I'd be impressed if you did, but

no. Yeah. Let's just focus on the sliding door scenario. What if the Eagles did take Ricky Williams, number two overall. And by the way, before you say this, my understanding is that Rick Williams Williams wasn't even their top running back. Edgron James was the top running back on the Eagles board. That's a little nugget for you there. Look at that. But yeah, but what if the Eagles took Ricky Williams, number two overall, how does Eagles history change? I mean, obviously the whole early stage of Andy Reid's tenure is much, much different. I'm looking at the 2000 NFL draft. So who are the quarterbacks that came out the next year?

And we are looking at, oh, wow, the first quarterback off the board that year was Chad Pennington and 18. That was the Corey Simon draft in 2000. and so he went six overall. And Chad Penton was the only quarterback that went off the board in the first round. The next one didn't go until. So, yeah, the Eagles are probably going in the free agent route. And now let's just go 2000 NFL off season. I'm wondering who are the big quarterbacks that changed hands that spring?

Because, man, that's, yeah, who's the quarterback at that point? Yeah, so this is so I'll, I'll chime in here. Yeah, what are you got? So, look, I'm going to have a little flex here on July 3rd. I've spoken to Jeffrey Lurie about this scenario. Oh, wow. They're a huge flex.

What an overtime flex. And Jeffret, so Tom Benson, the owner of the Saints. Okay. Paul's Jeffrey Lurie, the day of the draft. And tries to do owner to owner. You know, it's like, hey, it's like, hey, I know the coaches and GMs are saying. I don't know if Tom Benson said this, but owner to owner, you know, me to you. Let's make this trade happen.

And Jeffrey Lurie goes into that office, goes in Andy Reed's office. And Andy Reid says something along the lines of any other year you take this trade. Because this is like, it's not just the Saints whole draft, right? It's the first round pick the next year. And I think it's first round plus, right? Like I think it's first round. It's a number two, yeah. Yeah, to get the number two.

So I think the sliding door scenario here is not if they take Rick Williams because look, if you take a running back number two, Doug Peterson's your starting quarterback. What's that doing? You know, Deuce Daly was a fine running back then. You need the quarterback. Like you mentioned there, there wasn't really that other option. But I think there is a scenario that exists where this trade value is too strong.

The Eagles take the pick, okay, from the Saints. And it's similar to what Washington did. The Eagles trade up in the draft. Okay. And they take Dante Cole Pepper with the first Trump thing. Maybe they take Cade McNall. But I think Dante Cole Pepper is probably the direction that they go. Okay.

Although my understanding is there are people in that room who really like Cade McNow. But let's say for the purpose of conversation, they go with Dante. They go with Dante Cole Pepper. Okay. Right. And then the following. season, the Eagles have the number two overall pick, okay, from, they have the number two overall pick from Washington. Washington used that on LaVar Arrington.

But I don't think, yeah, but maybe either Andy Retraids back or what he does is he takes Chris Samuels with that pick. And the Eagles don't end up signing Onion, perhaps. Perhaps the Eagles take Chris Samuels number two overall. And they have the Trey Thomas Chris Samuels bookends on the offensive line. Maybe the Eagles take Peter Warwick in the first round that year or Plexico Burris in the first round that year. Or maybe they just go with Corey Simon with the number two overall pick. I don't know.

Perhaps they swap with the Cleveland Browns to get Courtney Brown. I don't know how that would have done. But when you just look at like there is a world that exists or done. Dante Colpepper, who was a high-level quarterback. Yeah. Under Andy Reid, okay, turns into a good player, and the Eagles have so much draft ammo the following year that those teams are built up even more. And, yeah, I mean, if you talk about Peter Warwick and Plexical Burris, like, the Eagles

badly needed a wide receiver. You think about those early years, what were they missing, a wide receiver? So, yeah, the fascinating thing to me is. is what if they took the trade? Now, it all worked. Yeah. Donovanab is the best quarterback in franchise history. And he brought the Eagles to four NFC Championship games. Yep.

Right? Or he brought the Eagles to five-em-stead. Five-in-staffirm. Yeah. Yeah. They lost the three. They make it the next year. And then he brings them back in 2010.

No, wait. I'm sorry, 2008. But so this isn't a knock on Donovan. But I've always wondered, what if they took that trade? Because, man, it's a trade just don't see anymore. We'll give you our entire draft plus our first round pick next year. And then like I said, it could have been the first round pick the following year too. And that one wasn't included in the Washington trade because, you know, Washington was obviously later on.

But let's say in theory, the first round pick was included the following year. The Saints were drafted in 2001. They had the, I'm pulling this up here. They had the 23rd overall pick. That was Deuce McAllister. The Eagles needed a wide receiver. They probably still would have taken Freddie Mitchell. But maybe the Eagles have 23 and 25.

And they move up in the first round and they land. I don't know. Corinne Robinson doesn't really move the needle here. So, all right. So let's just stop it at Chris Samuels. I had my put, you know, I closed my case with Chris Sammis. Yeah, I mean, this is, I actually did not, I mean, I didn't have the context of the trade. But I think that that, to me, that is the sliding doors to take into account is if you take the Saints trade and you say, okay, let's have Coal Pepper plus over McNab.

That's a, that's, that, I think is an interesting proposition. Obviously, Colpepper had some outstanding years playing with great offenses. He had Randy Moss, you know, so they, I mean, he had obviously one of the best. weapons in NFL history, which was different than what Donovan had here in Philadelphia. But I think that the infrastructure that Donovan had here was better from a coaching standpoint from a scheme standpoint as well. And so that's interesting, man. I think I'm, I think the trade might have been better in hindsight.

But obviously, look, you don't want to, you don't want to, I mean, as you mentioned, we both were both the same age, grew up here in Philadelphia. Like this was the, this was the, and the Eagles were terrible up to this. point. Honestly, this draft was what got me into the draft. The discourse, I was not like paying attention to the 1998 NFL draft as a 12 year old. But when the discourse around Ricky Williams versus Donovan McNab and the rest of the quarterbacks, really was Ricky versus Donovan on WIP and on TV, you know, it was incessant all offseason. That got me into like, all right, I want to follow this. And let me, let me kind of track this a little bit. And then the next

the draft the year after that. And the year after that, it started to slowly build. And, you know, honestly, if it weren't for this discussion, I'm probably not,

I'm not probably sitting where I am today from a, from a draft standpoint. Ah, well, PHLY, listeners, readers, viewers are better for it. So thankfully that,

that did occur. This was a fun show, right? We went 70 minutes here, flew by. I would have liked to get more small talk in. I apologize for that. But we had all

these sliding door scenarios here. So maybe there's a sliding door scenario where we talk about our July 4th plans and that fills up 20 minutes of the show. If we wanted us, if we wanted more small talk, we could have done the 2017 draft and talked about Donnell Pumfrey versus the rest of the running backs in that class. Ah, I see what you made by spice by small talk. Okay. I'm not I'm not one who can say that, right? So I will defer to you. If you want more of these types of conversations, Make sure you tune in, I believe it's in two weeks, but we will be doing what ifs across the network, including 10 Eagles what ifs that will be fun to discuss.

Before then, though, we have a full week of shows next week. It'll be fun to get to. Make sure you tune in. But before that, it's a holiday weekend, right? Spend, you know, have a good time, enjoy good food, enjoy good family. And, yeah, hope everyone enjoys July. fourth and if you're off tomorrow, if you're working tomorrow, whatever it may be, but enjoy the weekend, we'll be back on Monday.

That's Fran Duffy. Thank you, Andrew Fraser, for producing. I'm Zach Berman at Beau Warf, we're here. He would tell you, as always, we love you. I will tell you we'll be better on Monday. Thanks for watching.