PHLY Philadelphia Eagles Podcast - How Eagles First-Round Pick Makai Lemon EARNED Lofty Comparisons To NFL Stars | PHLY Eagles Podcast

Episode Date: April 29, 2026

Eagles first-round draft pick Makai Lemon has drawn some weighty comparisons to star wide receivers in the NFL since Howie Roseman traded up for the former USC standout. Bo Wulf and EJ Smith are joined by Lemon’s college position coach and Yahoo Sports NFL analyst Nate Tice to break down why Lemon could reach the heights of players like Amon-Ra St. Brown, Jaxon Smith-Njigba, and Puka Nacua. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hello everybody and welcome to the PHAI Eagles podcast on a beautiful Wednesday afternoon. Bowulf E.J. Smith live from the Xfinity Studio and presented by Ashley. And we are going to get right into discussion today. A big McIall Lemon episode. We're going to hear from Dennis Johnson, the USC offensive coordinator and receivers coach at USC to talk about what is special about Mackay Lemon. But as a prospect, what are the Eagles getting? Let's get right to it. Let's bring in.

Nate Tice of Yahoo. Nate, you look great. Thank you for taking the time. I heard it was a lemon episode. So I wore yellow. You know, just so it was just perfect, right? No, that was just a perfect happenstance. No, happy to be here.

And I have to tell you, we are trying to get the people to ask and get us to a critical mass so that we can create some lemon party merch. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. So we're trying to get that. I feel like the Philly fan base would dig that. You know, I think men of a certain age like that joke. Let us think our age.

We had to go. So make sure that you people continue to. Yes, it is a loving party. On that front. Okay. I want to ask you a lot of questions about what you think this offense is going to look like. And, you know, adding Lemon and Eli Stowers together what that could mean for this next version of Jalen Hertz. But let's let's start with just Lemon as a prospect, how you evaluated.

him. What kind of player do you think the egos are getting in McKinnell Lemon? Great route runner, a smooth route runner. And even if he doesn't isn't the biggest guy with the longest arms, his ball skills lets him play a little bigger than he is. The maybe the negative or maybe the way you squint at him is that he had did a lot of his damage in the last year, especially from the slot. And so it's more questions of how he will play from the outside, which is just that doesn't mean he can't because in limited snaps he did have great moments. Like I would say especially I was talking with Matt Harmon from Yahoo does a lot of

receiver work or reception perception. We're talking about like double moves on the outside. He's really has a great feel on those. And also can create a little bit with the ball in his hands too. I wouldn't say he's the deep burner going to take it to the house. But he does he has a real knack for just getting those what I call hidden yards. All right. It's a screen.

It's showing you get four. He gets six. You know, just a couple extra yards because of his contact balance and everything, which I think is a great type of skill set to add. to this offense you know we can get to way more detail on this in the minute but I do think this kind of player style is something that's been neat in this offense

someone that you know AJ Brown you know when he was with the Eagles depending is more just kind of that force of nature yak guy you know just that kind of runway go where I think a lineman can kind of actually make a guy missing a phone booth get a couple yards and just kind of pick up he's going to be a opposing teams like the NFCE opponents are going to hate him on third down like that that is going to be the macaille he's going to be that guy for

opposing teams like oh god lemon again. But you know, this just an all-around skill set. I had, you know, if I want to get some negatives with him, question marks playing on the outside, lack of length and lack of that stuff. Like how does he be press consistently? Does he have to be off ball? Does he have to be on the move and in motion? I think coaches are much better of adapting with that kind of skill set. So that's maybe my big questions. But I will say too, he's also a scrappy blocker, which goes a long way. You know, like that goes a long way with if he does want to make a living from the slot that makes him more viable. Like he's not going to be like Josh Downs with the Colts,

who's a phenomenal slot player, but small and can't block anybody. So you have to use him in a certain way. I think he's much better than that and much more complete than that. So just a nice all-around player with just maybe some questions on how he goes from the outside, which I'm sure we'll find out soon how he adapts with that. Also dot dot dot to this is they insulated themselves a little bit with Wix now coming to the roster. So he doesn't have to be the outside guy right away. Yeah, let's dive into that. You know, the use case of Mikhailim and what an ideal use case would be, I guess when you, especially early in his career, when you think about how he fits into a Sean Mannion scheme, sort of this McVe-Shannahan influence, what are the examples that you point to in terms of players and, you know, I guess the best way to use him early in his career. Yeah, it was great because even on yesterday on our show, Matt brought up the Eagles and I actually had some theories.

And I was like, great. This is great. This is like a rough draft version of talking on this show now. Is you guys asked me at the Super Bowl. And I was like really trying to envision what Mania can maybe do. And I've kind of gotten to marinate on that a little bit. It might not be a lot of the, I think a lot of people are going, oh, you know, Hertz doesn't throw into to the middle, yada yada. Lemon's not a dig route runner.

He's not an inside slant guy. He's not a seam runner. He's not one of those bodies, like a power slot type. Or if we want to talk about Stowers in a second, maybe what he would be used on. It might not work with Hertz. But what's great with Lemon is that the RPO's are going to be great for him. I also think routes that with I think there will be more play action, whether that's under center or not, it doesn't matter.

There will be more play action. And then I think that sail routes, which are kind of the deep corner routes from the slot, Lemon's phenomenal on those. And that's one of the best routes that Jalen Hertz throws. I also think other routes that you can work, you know, in motion and from the slot, probably if anyone wants to watch, like any Eagles fans want to watch with the Packers offense, maybe how you can envision lemon how jaden reed is used okay that is a really good one-to-one comparison of how his usage will be jane reed just got a contract extension from them um but a lot of

overs a lot of suffer he's on motion and then just gets to use his body control to kind of run away and work away from a guy and those are actually routes that i think hurts throws fairly well um that i think there's some stuff that doesn't work i think but there are aspects of lemons game that do translate nicely that i don't have to squint as much i've kind of instead of square peg ground hole. I've been using square peg rectangular hole. It's close enough, even if it's not. Yeah. If I can, if I can pull out a sec, I want to ask you a philosophical question about this, because you think about the Packers offense and the different types of receivers they have. This is one thing that we've talked about for a while is the idea that like teams say they want

a wide receiver room that's like a basketball team, right, where you've got your, you've got your power forage, you've got your, you know, you've got different body types, guys who can do different things. to me, I'm like, well, you know, if you could give me three AJ Browns, who guys are the exact same player, they'll find with me. You know, I can have. Yeah. Yeah. We'll figure that out, right? Where do you fall on on that?

And maybe it's, maybe that's an unfair either or you would like to have, you know, you could have absent having three AJ Browns. You would like guys with complimentary skill sets. But where do you find, where do you fall on that sort of thought? Yeah, I definitely think I, I, I, Kyle Shanion was the one I first heard you use that kind of analogy of like the basketball lineup stuff. And I do agree with that for the most part. I think now the NFL and I think there's more value too is just versatility in the sense that you can win inside or outside like Devante.

Like I think he's a valid slot guy and a valid outside guy. That's ideal. That's what I weigh like with more value. And I think teams and scouts do too or execs do too. So I do think the basketball lineup analogy is nice in the sense it's skill set. It doesn't just have to be literal size. But it's just more that like we have a guy that can operate from the slot. we have a vertical guy. We have a guy that we can target in the red zone. We have a guy that can win on the outside. Like ideally,

you just like you say, you just have five AJ Browns. And yeah, you'll be set as long as they block and we're good. Yeah, I'd love to have four rainy mosses. You know, I love to just go with four power forwards and just be like,

all right. We're good. We'll switch on defense. No, but I really do think that there is some truth to that. But I also think there's no more need for point guards. If that we're going to use that analogy. I think you have to go,

a two guard or a bigger. Okay. Like that, if you do want to take that. So I, yeah, maybe that's how I view it. I always will prefer size anyways.

Devante Smith is like, the funniest thing is he's like an outlier for me. And that's why I always called him. It was like, he's a guy that usually I wouldn't go for because of his size, but I love him because I think he's an amazing receiver and everything. Like he's a picture perfect coach, you know,

teach tape receiver. Um, so like for him, it's like, I can tolerate him being maybe the, the smaller guy. So I'm, I'm okay with it as long as you have some options that was some size,

which is Wix. right now on this roster. Nate, are you aware, I'm very, one more thing. Are you aware I have discovered this coaching my son's little league team? Yeah. That you know like the game like 500 that you would play growing up as a kid where everybody you throw? Yeah. The kids they before practice they want to play that but they call it moss.

The name of the game is moss. Oh, I did not know that. I did not know that. That was like when I went to the I was at a hotel pool years ago and they were playing Marco Polo. Yeah. And they called it they called it swag yellow. And I was like, I was like, kids, kids. I was like, this is an issue on the parents.

Yeah. It was like four or five years ago. And I was like, I thought I was like hearing things. I was like, are you guys saying swag yellow? Swag yellow. Now, did you call that game 500? Did you call it Jackpot when you were young? 500.

But people would yell Jackpot as the way to kind of like screw over the people that the people they didn't like. Jackpot was like mystery box. Right. So I'm like 200, 300. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Maybe we're talking about it. The same game.

Yeah. My friend caught it? Oh, 500. Well, the real question is what you called kill the carrier. But, uh, yeah, we're not going to. But I think we all like our jobs. So, uh, yeah. So talking about the basketball team that the Eagles have assembled in a post-A.

Brown world, as we presume. My one concern looking at that group is that they don't have as many guys. Well, AJ was always the one that could win vertical. You know, if the Eagles were getting single high looks, it could be as simple as AJ is down there on facing one-on-one coverage and he is going to beat the guy in front of him. Is that a concern that you share with this receiving core in a post-J world? And I guess what does, where do the Eagles go from here if that is the case where they don't have someone who can win outside the numbers against single high as easily? Yeah, I think Devante is very valid in that as well, even if not being as big as AJ.

I think he's great as a vertical receiver. I can vividly remember, I know there's 100 instances of it, but the one Iowa, always remember is the go ball we caught against the chiefs in the first super bowl they played against them like there there's just stuff like that he's fantastic as a go ball runner and ball tracker so the thing is is that it was nice to have two of those guys so if just having one does bring some limitations but also i think it forces maybe some more scheme diversity rather than you just running two goes on the outside every single time because it's pretty if you have the easy buttons hit the easy buttons like just just hit them it's pretty nice to hit those um wicks can do that a little bit i don't like wicks as a

straight vertical burner, but as far as physicality on those stop routes. Yeah. Come back. Yeah. Yep. He's very, very good on those or good, I should say on those that has the size. His whole thing, maybe his big negative is sometimes he has drops issues. That's always been his big hang up.

So it can leave some frustration. So get ready for that. But I do think that I don't, I think that because Devante's on the roster that helps alleviate some of this. But I would be weary if it was like, okay, but Devante's never on the outside. or Duante's not the vertical guy, then I would get a little weird because that is such a nice option to have

that hurts in this offense have always been able to hit in all different types of situations, whatever. So I do have some concerns because that has been such a big part of this offense, but I do think Smith can at least do enough to compensate for that. Before we get into Sean Mannion

and how he's going to use all these pieces and what that means for Jalen this season, let's talk about Stowers as a prospect. What did you see in him? Do you see the elite receiving upside and how much of him being a zero as a blocker at the moment affects the way that you think he's likely to be used?

Yeah, he's kind of a Tino, tied in a name only. So it's, but I will say this. I went into the evaluation process expecting to hate him receiving only. I thought it was going to be like Mike Kisiki all over again. Like this guy doesn't want to play football. He's just a volleyball player

that wants to dunk on the guy, yada, yada, yada. Then I watched him. I was like, he plays how he tested, which is an exceptional athlete. And he's got great ball skills, great hands. He's just a natural pass catcher. He could actually be a power slot and be that type of person, like a tight end. It's not theory.

He can beat D.Bs because he has the size and the athleticism. I end up loving him. He was a top 50 player for me. I had another guy, Eli Raritan that went to the Patriots. I had as 2A, 2B. It's kind of like what you wanted at tight end. And it was like, all right, do you want the inline guy or do you want the receiving only guy? Now, I think he's a year away from being a year away.

But I do think he has some, I mean, phenomenal athletic ability. Like if he hits and he goes onto a nice path, like that's top five tight end ability. And I really mean it. I'm not trying to just say that because I'm on the Eagles show. Like it's he moves differently. And the blocking is, you know, the effort isn't terrible. Like it's not like he's like a total, like it's like he never, never has wanted anything to do with it. Like he'll try.

but it's just like he has no idea what he's doing he used to be a quarterback yeah you know so he's just like i guess i'm going here so he's going to take some time of that regard you know goddard on the roster right now like you know goddard's blocking has kind of gone down over the years because of injuries and stuff so i do think with manny and then this kind of getting into your next question maybe a little early but i do think that the art if they want to increase some of the rpeos again i think stowars is going to be so dangerous on those think of all how many goddard flat route r pos we've seen over the years now you get a guy that's phenomenal getting north on those in the flats so even if that's just the way to sprinkle him in

early that's one path i can see him like contributing pretty early if they want to kind of use them in that way you don't have to block that's the one thing about r pos is the guys that can't block or or if he blockers they don't have to block yeah we just now they could just run around we could just get them out of the way so i think stowers can do that until he kind of gets along with the other stuff but i really like him i really really like him like his upside is as high as any player in this draft class and really have all the tight ends in the NFL right now and i really me that. I like that RPO example because a lot of what I've been thinking about with Eli Stowers is honestly things that don't translate as seamlessly into the Eagles offense. We had one of our

most like frequent chatter, CDP, say that the Eagles drafting McCoy Lemon and Eli Stowers was kind of like buying exercise equipment for your significant other in a way where it's like, you know, you could use these, you could use them in all the field. It's there. So that, that a really passive aggressive. It makes me feel a little bit better. All right. That's like a Minnesota comment, not a Philly comment. You know, Minnesota nice passive aggressiveness there. Let's hold this manning conversation.

We're going to take a quick break. You're going to stay with us. Come back with more on the other side as we get into what this manning offense could look like with Nate Tice of Yahoo. Upgrade your home for less during Ashley's Memorial Day event. Right now, save up to 20% on beautifully crafted Ashley furniture or take advantage of 60 months no interest financing with no minimum purchase. Looking to sleep better, get free upgrades on select adjustable bases plus king-size comfort for queen-sized pricing on select Ashley mattresses.

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I got my Wawa swag on, company man. And Nate, here's the big question. Is given McCoy Lemon and Eli Stowers coming here and A.J. Brown, presumably leaving, you know, incorporating all of these new pieces on offense. To what degree do you think Sean Mannion is the most important person when it comes to the 2026 Eagles? Oh, incredibly important. Because, you know, this guy, Vic Fangio, don't have a lot of doubt about him. I would say also new offense the line coach. He's got a lot on his play too.

That's a big, gigantic and humongous shoes to fill. I do not envy that position. Also with what's happening with the O-Line 2 as far as aging and everything that's going on there. Yes. But no, Mannion and just making this work because it's a tough way to make everyone happy. The fan base or his quarterback or his bosses, there's ways to do it. He's going to have to thread a needle. And it's hard to know, especially for me as a national guy, you guys probably are way more in the weeds on it, just knowing just timelines on the stuff.

It's like, are they giving him patience? Or is this a two-year experiment, three-year experiment? Or is this like, it better be ready in September? Like that those things I won't know until I actually see it unfold and unveil and everything. But I do think that, yeah, he has tremendous pressure on him. But he also, there's more, again, since I've talked to you guys at the Super Bowl, there's more ways that I think this can work, even if it's not ideal. realistic right now and this is a crossroads year for them and I really do think that not that's gonna be a bad year off-year just a crossroads year just a regrouping year the proof it year yeah it is a proved it year and then just yeah but the thing is what's kind of fun in the NFL right now the entire AFC's going through that and I would say I would say about 29 teams are going through that right now it's a it's a

big crossroads time in the NFL history right now that last year and this year I think next year things get more solidifying 2027 but don't feel wonky Eagles fans if you're like, oh, our team, we have this issue, we have this issue. I've gone through a lot of rosters in the last couple shows. A lot of teams have a lot of issues right now. And I think the Eagles ones are a little bit more fun to kind of parse. But anyways, I do think Mannion just does have, you know, he has big shoes to fill and a lot of questions to answer. But I do think there's some paths that you can get there where it can make it work a little bit. And certainly he deserves some grace and some room to grow, you know, as a first time play caller, as he makes

adjustments to what he's seeing from defenses. But in the beginning, like, Like, as we are watching him install the offense in training camp and what the first couple weeks of the season look like, what will be the things that you are paying close attention to to see if, you know, he has a specific vision for how these pieces are used and how to get something different out of Jalen Hertz. Yeah, and I'm not going to kind of like tread new ground here, but it's going to be some, how he just puts him in the shotgun.

If he goes under center, how much comfort level there is with that. You know, Jordan Love gets used a decent amount in the gun, but they'll do play action with him under center. They will also do what's called what they call a spin series, which is kind of a glorified wing T thing. I talked about this on our show. I clipped it on Twitter. But what it is is like splitbacks or a version of splitbacks or two backs back there.

Sometimes there was a lot Jaden Reed, a receiver back there, where they would just do a lot of action, a lot of motion, and they would kind of just create the run game off of that and then a play action game off of that. They did it with Malik Willis, who has Jaden, Jalen is a much better player the Malik Willis, but there are some overlap with where they like to throw. There's the whole middle of the field thing. Okay, I don't want to add nauseam to talk about that again.

But it's one of these things where that, why how Malik throws and some of his talents and what he throws well is the same as hurts, throws to the outside, go balls. He's very good at. Vertical throws, overrouts. And those are really good on those types of play actions. So as opposed to putting Malik Willis under center and making him do something he's uncomfortable with, they got to a heavy play action game out of the game. gun or really more a glorified pistol.

So that kind of spin series is something I'll look for. Maybe I'll retweet it after the show if anyone wants to see it. But they did with Malik Wilson and Green Bay and then they kept it with Jordan Love as kind of like a package. It's kind of cool. There's a lot of creativity with it, but also it's real football. You know, it just looks funky as far as the concepts and everything. But also I think those play action concepts really work for Hertz without making him go.

All right, you're obviously not comfortable understanding. You don't have a lot of experience. You're obviously not comfortable turning your back to defense. not a lot of quarterbacks are. What gets you to do something that we merge these two worlds? Your preference for gun, but a run game that's a little bit more diverse, has a little bit more action to it, and it'll play action that can kind of do something off of that. So those are things I'm just kind of looking for is those kind of little sub packages that

the Packers have used. And I think Manian's smart enough to not go, why don't we just do exactly what we did in Green Bay? I think it's just going to be aspects of what they did in Green Bay that will translate over. Yeah, this to me, again, it's like I think we've spent a lot of time on the show talking about the projection of like to maximize these two these two draft picks, Mikhail Mennon and Eli Stowers, we would expect Jalen Hertz to have to access the middle of the field more often.

I guess do you think that that is as cut and dry as that? Or do you think that it is maybe less of a projection on what Hertz is able to do because there are creative ways that Sean Mannion can kind of merge the whole thing together? Yeah, the middle of the field thing is because Hertz can do enough that he doesn't have to like live over the middle. Like he just has to do it enough that defenses can't just run. cover two every snap and that's that's what the issue was like if you just attack to the outside defenses are going to run cover two and if you can't run the ball like the eagles

couldn't last year then that's how the 2025 Eagles that's what it looks like so it's just more it's like a guy shooting three's like you don't have to be 42% shooter and shoot seven a game it's just going to make the same comparison 34 35% and shoot enough that if you're wide open that oh yeah that's it just honor it and that's all it is and I and I've really I brought this stat plenty of times about him thrown over the middle and how it lows, you know, 10 to 22 yards and everything like that. But the Shane Steichen here in 2022, he threw it just enough. That was his most that he did it. It was still relatively low, but it was high for him.

And that's where that passing game felt the best. You know, that's where it felt a little bit more cohesive and everything. And so I do think that I think there's just these arguments and discussions lose contain and people lose kind of like the actual crux of them. But it's not that he has to do it every down like Jared Gough or Matthew Stafford. He just has to do it enough. That, okay, there's that dig route. Do it outside just the red zone. Do it outside just in a normal first down situation.

Do it in the third quarter outside the opening drive. That's all it is. And I do think that's why I brought up the spin series and the play action and the sail routes and the overroutes. There's parts to merge these worlds without turning them into, try and turn them into Jordan Love or Jared golf. Like there's ways you can just bridge it and make it work. But again, that's easy for me to say in April, I don't have to coach this or install this or get anyone to buy in. And again, it's just theory.

But there are ways to do it without just turning into a Ben Johnson, throw it over the middle machine. All right. Let's close the book on What's Brewing presented by Wawa. Nate, before we let you go quickly on the rest of the class, do you have a Markell Bell take, the mammoth tackle from my name? Yeah. They took him right, the right spot.

I mean, he's a monster. I thought Jeff Stoutland was still on staff when they drafted him. He is ginormous. And yeah, Howie did two things this off season in a meeting with reporters. He said along the offensive line, you know, we're going to look at the same kind of players, but push come to shove, we will probably maybe have a little bit of a preference for athleticism. Then he drafts Mark Elbelle and Micah Morris and brings in Jane Roberts. And then he said, you know what?

I have over indexed on athletic tight ends in the past. I need to get back to, you know, actually drafting some guys with blocking ability. And then he adds Eli Stowers. So that tells you how much you need to pay attention to what it says. Anyway, go ahead on Markle. I wasn't shocked that he went tight end with that second round pick. I actually was kind of thinking they would. But it went Stowers.

I was like, my first reaction was like, oh, maybe not there. But it's like, I do think it'll end up working. Yes, the only one more important this season than Sean Mannion is Johnny Munt. Seriously, though. Like, really, though. It's not Greg Calcutera. I can tell you that. But no, it's, but no, I, yeah, the Markell Bell thing, it's, that's perfect.

That's a nice little project. You know, he's a classic oversized tackle. He's going to get beat with some speed. And you try and just make his hands tidy and his footwork tidy that then he kind of just make that more manageable. But I, I liked him. I actually think he has swing tackle ability. Like he has enough size to hang on the left.

DeWan Jones was able to hang at this size. and you know I think Bell was a much better prospect of Juan Jones so I I think this is a fun little project they took him right in the right range I love that and then you know the Cole Peyton pick was just a do you like Taysam Hill yeah kind of draft selection I think some people are like yeah that's the new guy that's gonna take over it's like I don't know about that guys but he's he's fun he's a great athlete yeah he's returning some kicks or something yeah well I honestly was talking to somebody about that and that's a point they brought up is that maybe he changes the roster math because he can just play on special teams.

Yeah. Like Joe Webb. I mean, I could see him in a target of four quarterback. He has that like that build. But also just on coverage. Yeah. Like yeah.

Yeah. Okay. No, he he legitimately could. And how many they've Dalton on the roster too and Tanner McKee is still on the roster. So I think that's much rather have a guy that can contribute on special teams. Yeah. Joe Webb.

That was what he was for. That's right. Mm. Yeah. And like that's so valuable. Like especially on a team like this where then you can get more specific with other positions when you can kind of just go like, okay, now we have a little bit more of a specialist type, not kick or anything, but just a guy that's a slot-only

guy or, you know, like a fifth safety or just something that's more specific or something you need. Last one for you, Nate, is the Jonathan Granard trade, the Eagles made. The one, you know, the move they made to address the defense and replace Jalen Phillips, two third round picks for Jonathan Grenard, signing him to a two-year, $50 million extension. What did you make of that move? Great player. I really liked it. I, if I want to get kind of mean with it, it's just I think he's better than the guy they

missed out on that they had for a rental on. I do think he's more productive down to down, not only just with the pressures, but also finishing those pressures. He's been very productive in many stops. I love him his fit in this defense as well. Like this is the perfect type of defense that has some three, four principles to it, where he can actually drop into coverage. He can be on the open side.

Their front actually works as well, like who they have up there. that he, like on third down and everything, like he can just be onto the outside on base downs. He can actually drop in the coverage and it's not like, oh my God, what are you doing out there? But I do think like you're paying him to get after the passer. The things with him are injuries. You know, that's been his MO. He's always just battled injuries. That's the risk.

That's why he was available on top of the Vikings, not knowing how to manage a cap. But it's really one of those things where I really like this move, especially for where the Eagles are at. And I can't emphasize enough, like how open. both conferences are. So it's just like these types of moves. Like I'm glad they kind of just think, oh,

we're going to try to make do with this, this and that. And as much as I like Nolan Smith, he's going to battle some injuries too. Like he's just, he's not the biggest guy for how physical he plays. It is what it is. It's just a physics thing.

I love them, but that's what it is. So it's nice to have a little depth there. That when Nolan Smith's not out, now we're not going like, oh, God. Like, what do we do on third down? How are we going to get to the pastor?

So also, this is random. I really like more Ojojomo. Oh, yeah. I really like, I really like him. I just have to throw that out there before I leave because I really like him. Start saving up your money because you're going to be able to sign him in for agency next year. Yep, he's, I know.

Milton Williams next. That's the next version of that. With more original. He was an original camp crushing one. Get out of time. That's what I'm going to stay on the bandwagon long enough to really. That's where you draft the guy from Nigeria. That's not going to play a snap of football.

He'll just replace him. You know, that's great. That's right. Who are Bernard. Have you seen him yet? Have you seen him yet? Haven't seen him up front up close yet. We actually talked to the International Scout yesterday,

the guy who discovered both UR and Joshua Weir. I keep thinking Joshua Thomas. Very interesting insight. I hope everybody checks that up. But yeah, I mean, I can't. We have rookie minicamp this weekend. I can't wait to see these guys on the field. I'm fascinated.

I told my dad his timings and stuff. And he was like, oh, so was that just like a workout or something? I go, no, that was like official laser times, everything. I know we're it's hey man I'm all for it I'm glad the Eagles JJ J J J Watt makes J J J Watt look like me seriously though I I'm I'm all for it I love the international pathway program like I that's where football's going that it's not not stopping anytime soon so I'm glad it seems like the Eagles are smart enough to just go hey this is a free roster spot and we might have a just a ball of clay to work with what's the downside I

know that so many teams just burn picks rather than just have some any semblance of creativity sorry that's my mini ran on that like i get so frustrated it's like amen yeah yeah yeah so way to go howie way to go to eagle scouting stuff so just an elite ball knower natice and also i want to give you your flowers here i think you were the first person to that i at least i heard use the term easy button on a podcast about the NFL oh thank you i'm giving it too i i just say stuff and hope it sticks i think you thought that was going to mean more than you're praying a I mean, but it's like it's become like a very like in the, yeah, everybody uses it now. I'm giving me credit for it.

He coined that. Thank you. I didn't know that. Thank you. I know power slot's kind of my thing. But I don't know that one. I know I got that one. So no, I appreciate that.

E.J. Have you played Dune Imperium yet? I need to. Nate texted. He's like, have you been on Dune Imperium? I got to get you guys to play it. And then when I see at the Super Bowl or whatever, then we can get a game night and play a little Dume Imperium.

We get Barlow in. We'll play for like six hours. Just be totally cool. in L.A. at the Super Bowl. Sounds amazing. We're in the sixth of the offseason now. I will get into the interim period for sure. All right.

Nate Tice, thank you so much. We really appreciate you taking the time. Back with more on the other side on the P.H.L.Y. Eagles podcast, including an interview with Mackay Lemons, college coach. Let's talk about staying in the game because if pain is slowing you down,

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the USC offensive coordinator slash receivers coach, a little inside information on the kind of player in person, Mackay Lemon is. Check that out now. A pleasure now on the P.H.O.I. Eagles podcast to be joined by Dennis Simmons, Mackay Lemons, offensive coordinator and receivers coach from USC. Coach Simmons, thank you so much for taking the time. All right.

guys for having me. All right. Let's let's start with just a basic question to get Eagles fans fired up. What are the Eagles getting in McKinie Lemon? And they're getting an absolute playmaker. They're getting a dog. They're getting a guy that's going to come to work every day, focused and detailed on, you know, his, you know, his assignments, the concepts offensively of what they're going to be trying to accomplish. As a receiver, you know, we have seen the production, super impressive and we know that he was moved all over and has these amazing hands. What

would you say is his superpower as a player? I think he plays a lot bigger than what his actual size is. He's very, very, very competitive. So, I mean, when the ball's in the air, he's, you know, he's able to contort his body

in awkward positions to be able to come down with it. Where do you think that comes from? You know, the Eagles talked a lot about his play personality and some of the physicality that he plays with that does deceive, you know, the size profile. Where do you think he draws that intensity from on the field? I mean, I think he's just fired that way. I think, you know, as an Eagles fan, you kind of see that a little bit with Jalen. It's always direct to the point business, really matter of fact.

And I think this is just kind of a Kai's personality. And what was it like, you know, he has a really impressive true sophomore season, but obviously takes this jump as a junior. What kind of worker behind the scenes did you see? And what did he do to take his game to the next level? Well, it really didn't surprise me. I mean, Guy's journey, he came in as a freshman. You know, he played in the first couple of games on offense,

and then we have some defensive injuries. Right. Evonatorily popped over there and actually started a couple of games as a true freshman at Corner. That's so cool. And it was the season ended. He, you know, elected to go back to the offensive side of the ball and, you know, play very well in the bowl game against Louisville. And then, you know, I think just him being out there and having opportunities to have some success and make some plays just springboarded his confidence into a sophomore season. and, you know, obviously, you know, the things are what they were this past year.

Now, we've heard about the cornerback experimentation with Mackay, but I need a coach's perspective on this. Good question. How did he look as a corner? For the last two years, McCoy Lemon has been the best football player on our team partner. Ooh, I like that. Yeah. The Eagles are getting, you know, you're getting a high-quality receiver,

but you're going to get a guy that can help you in the special teams area, you know, you know, as he's made catches contested Kessage with contact. You know, he's not afraid to stick his nose in there and going to hit somebody as well. Now, one thing that we have been wondering about is it feels like Mackay's best work has come on the inside. But do you feel that he has what it takes to win on the outside at the next level as well? Yes. And he displayed that, you know, like I said, when he came in as a true freshman, that's what we started at.

Okay. on the side, you know, and his short area quickness is elite, you know, he doesn't have a whole bunch of wasted motion, so he's able to get in and out of his break sufficiently and effectively to create separation. And, you know, in college, they can grab on you all the way down

to the field, you know, in the NFL, that's that's not the case. So, I mean, his upside is very bright. Along those lines, if you could dream up a role for him in the NFL, you know, a player that fulfills that role now, what are the types of receivers that we're talking about? You know, what do you think, you know, is his best use case?

I mean, you know, a lot of the comps compare him to Amaraj St. Brown just because, you know, he's able to get in there and do the Doty Rock underneath. He's a physical player in the run game. You can line him up and, you know, have him go crack linebackers. You can have him outline him up and have him hold a point on the edge versus, you know, defensive ends. I mean, it's just, you know, like I said, he plays a lot bigger than what his actual size is.

And, you know, it's really, I mean, it's really going to be up to their office coaches and what way they want to use it. Now, how about his, his personality? Is there, is there something you can give us when we meet Mackay? Is there something we can bring up that'll put a smile on his face? Ask him about his nieces and his sister. I mean, Kai's a very family-oriented guy. So I know Mike, his dad, will be somewhere.

within the facilities, him and Brandy, his mom. But yeah, when you start talking about the nieces and you start talking about the sister, you hit a soft spot there. Okay. And one of the questions I always like to ask the coaches is, do you have a favorite story, something from behind the scenes or during a game that you feel really sums up Mackay's personality? You know, Mackay's done a lot of great things.

I think, you know, just from a coach's perspective, one of the more impressive things, I would, I guess I would have to point back to the Iowa game. You know, obviously we don't get a ton of rain out here in Southern California. But, you know, that day, unfortunately, happened to be a downpour. And just to see him able to go out and play the way he played, not miss a beat. You know, guys grabbing on him, catching, you know, contested catches and water dropping in his eyes through his helmet at the same time. It was extremely impressive.

I think Eagles fans will be happy to hear that. The California kid can handle the weather. in the Northeast is what you're telling us. Yeah, I don't, I don't foresee that as being a big issue. How about is there, is there a nickname that you have for him? Lemon feels like it could invite, you know, some kind of, some kind of juice, as it were. You know, around here, he was just coffee. Okay.

All right. I like that. Really quick, you mentioned Jalen Hertz earlier. You overlapped with Jalen at Oklahoma, if I got that correct. I guess what, what's your expectation on how those two will kind of be able to mesh personality-wise? Well, I think their personalities are a lot similar. I mean, like I said, they both are very direct to the point in, you know, business-type

individuals. So I think that will naturally kind of gravitate toward him. And, you know, his work ethic and practice and all of that stuff, you know, is going to be something that Jaylon is going to appreciate, you know, but you get in the same, you know, on the more Keith Brown as well. Well, Coach Simmons, thank you so much for taking the time and giving us the Scouting Report on Kai.

Good luck. Good luck the rest of the offseason. All right. I appreciate you guys. Y'all have a blessed day. Thank you. Take care. And we'll be back with more

on the PHY Eagles podcast. Shout out Ed. That's what EJ said before I started recording the Saturdays because the people at Ace are so friendly that EJ has become actual friends with Ed. They send each other meat pics. That's true.

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with aura and deliver yourself the perfect Mother's Day gift 25% off with code P H-L-Y. Waza! That was good. It wasn't that good. I was a big, Waza.

Really? Yeah, oh yeah. It was like right in my wheelhouse when I was like nine or ten years old. What are you doing? I don't know that one actually. Was that like one of the later commercials? Maybe. I remember what's up though.

I like that. It was a good commercial. Yeah, it was a good commercial. That was a good interview. They used to have good commercials. Not anymore. Yeah. There's not a lot of like, is that just an old person thing to say?

No, I think commercials have gotten worse. Yeah. But people second screen more than they used to. Maybe we're not as attentive. Yeah. It's actually, it's an interesting. Oh, an experiment there. What's your Mount Rushmore of commercials from you as from your child?

Oh, I don't know. Probably a Burger King commercial in there somewhere was up. With the King or with the tiny hands? Yes. You got these tiny hands. I really liked, oh, no. Oh, the ESPN commercials. Oh, sure.

Oh, my God. I iconic. Classics. I'm taking those. Two Burger King commercials was up and then ESPN. Like to Aaron Boe. It was a classic. How about the?

K-9 Avantics, the Hello mother, hello father Please, that's mosquitoes I like to Bob We had a baby eats a boy Yeah, that's a good one I like the hamsters in the Kia I like those guys

What? The little hamsters They like dance in the Kia I don't know what you're talking about You don't Lindsay You have to know what I'm talking about They're in a Kia soul And they're just like bobbing their little heads

I lost me It's good I like that one Super chats CDP says What happens to AJ if Frabble resign Good question. It is a good question. I think that deal is done anyway.

Yeah, I would suspect so. I don't, is Mike Vrable actually going to resign? I mean, I don't think so. I haven't read anything concrete about that. I don't think that that's going to happen. I know he's under a lot of scrutiny. But, yeah, I don't think it would change. He's a man.

What? He's a man. Come on. I'm not touching that. But yeah, I don't know if that changes. much. Yager lasagna. It's a fair question, but I don't know. Nate is a real pro. Step into the lemon party trap and just went with it. Great draft coverage. Thanks, guys. Thank you, Yager lasagna. Yeah, I appreciate that. I appreciate that. Love a good lasagna.

I like a good lasagna. Yeah. Make it, make up okay. Veggie lasagna. Oh, veggie lasagna. That's a good change up. I have an aunt that makes a veggie lasagna that like it's a vegan lasagna. And even as a kid, like when I wouldn't eat anything that was like vegan just from being close-minded, like I still enjoyed that lasagna. Mother-in-law makes a great... Nutils, so you could eat anything. What's that? Noodles?

I get enough noodles. You can eat anything. I don't know about that, actually. My mom used to make like a Mexican lasagna. Okay. Oh, yeah. Strong. Very strong.

What made it Mexican? It was like, you know, ground beef, taco seasoning, Mexican cheese, and then it would be like tortilla chips as the layers. Oh. It was really good. Okay. That's good. So basically that's nachos.

Yeah, but like multi-layer nachos, it was more lasagna. Maybe, you know what? It might have been tortillas, actually. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. You could probably do either. That's interesting. I think both were probably included, but the layers were tortillas, man.

You know what? This is one of those, like, really dumb guy things. I think it took me way longer than should have to realize that tortilla chips were made from tortillas. Oh, I don't think that's dumb guy. Lisey's laughing at you. That is so dumb. It's the name of the thing. I don't think that's dumb.

I think that's very dumb. Everybody gets their one brain fart, you know. But it is hard to envision like you eat like 20 tortilla chips. How many tortillas did you just eat? That's a lot of tortillas, man. So I don't know.

Like how many shrimp did you just eat? Like how many souls did you just devour? Anyway, then the super chat from June K says if Cole Payton plays on special teams is E.J. retroactively get credit for the Eagles drafting a specialist. I would say if Cole Payton turns into a long snapper or a kicker or a punter, then yes. Yeah, I don't think return. But not him being part of coverage units.

Yeah, I don't think return man or just being a special team's ace really counts. As much as I would like it to, I appreciate you trying to kind of, you know, get me to win in that area. Oh, yeah, look, so Lindsay's got it up, so just both can see that this commercial is real. I don't remember this commercial at all I love these guys Now my wife is really like afraid of Of animal heads on like human bodies It's like her one thing that she really hates

That's her ring for you Yeah that truly genuinely that is what I always say It is the same exact thing It's like an irrational fear but these guys I mean who couldn't love these guys They're great I mean I don't love them Why don't you like them they're cute

They're just out there bobbing their little heads They're having a good time I like them Right. Comps. Yeah. For Michael Lemon. Beyond the usage that we talked about.

Yeah, Dennis Simmons pulling Amon Rae St. Brown out. I think that's a popular one. And certainly that's like a ceiling, an upside case. Who else comes to mind for you in terms of the kind of flare he might be? It's a good question. I don't see like Puka Nakua when I watch him. I know he's tough. He's got physicality, but he's just smaller than those guys.

I thought Jaden Reed was a good comp from Nate. Yeah, I think that's a good usage comp. Yeah. I don't know, the tricky thing with him, I'm not comparing him to Devante. The tricky thing with him is it does seem like if he is going to hit his ceiling, it is going to be like a unique body type for that role. I mean, Jackson Smith and Jigba is probably the closest in terms of like size and, you know, what you would, again, high range outcome.

Faster. Yeah, exactly. But a high volume player that you move around the formation and really feature in your offense. I think that's probably the ceiling for Mackay Lemon, but I do think he's going to have to be a unique player to really hit that ceiling. Did a little filtering of guys who are sub-6 feet who ran between like a 4-4-8 and a 453

because McCoy Lemon runs that 4-5 at his pro-day and like the kinds of players that you would be talking about. Filtered by height too, right? Under six foot? I said subs. Oh, sorry, my bad. Don't you worry. You got a laptop today.

I don't. It's understandable. No, I just, I apologize. I'm supposed to be listening to you. Stefan Diggs? That's interesting. Yeah. Slightly different kinds of players, but I think that's an interesting one.

I think Robert Woods is a good one. And that one I can kind of see. And then you're like, then you're going down the list. Sterling Shepard, you know, you would hope that he's better than that, but Staling Shepard was a high pick as well. Deontay Johnson? Yeah. I mean, yeah, yeah.

Jordan Addison, Marquis Lee, and then also on that list is Jalen Rager. But the thing is with the smaller guys that both have hit, and then honestly I'd put Jailen Rager in there as well. Like, to me, that's less about them being, I think that those guys tested worse than what you would have seen on film from them. You know what I mean? Like, especially when I'm looking at Christian Kirk as a real example, like they, they, play faster than their testing numbers. We'll see if McIllivan does that, but I'm a little bit hesitant to use those comparisons.

And then, I mean, Debo, Samuel, and Brandon, I, they're just bigger, more physical guys. Yeah, I wouldn't. Debo is a much different. Yeah, like, if you filtered out weight, then they're out of the sample. So, um, it shows that he's going to have to be like a conference.

It shows that there, I mean, the bubble. Yes, of course. It shows that they're going to have to, he's going to have to be a unique player for, He's going to have to be like an outlier in terms of body type, which can happen. We saw it with Devante Smith. Yeah, and I think it goes to the thing that Fran has said, which is that, you know, McCoy Lemon might not be the perfect fit everywhere.

And you would be worried about him if he's drafted by a team that needs a 1A guy. Yes. In this infrastructure, getting to play with Devante Smith and in what we expect this offense to look like, it seems like a pretty good fit. I agree. Yeah. If he's going to be someone that is a complimentary piece, I think you can see a pathway for him to be a really solid contributor for them. Okay.

We have some specifics on the Jonathan Grenard contract. Yeah. So it came out, I think, earlier today, courtesy of, do you call it Spotrack or SpotTrack? I say Spottrack, but usually I use over the cap. Okay. Well, I've got it from Spotrack here. I think it's essentially a two-year $50 million. Pretty clean, yeah.

Yeah. Cap hits. I mean, the cap hits are probably as ridiculous as you'd expect. It's $6.2 million next season, 11.1 in 2027, 15.7 million in 2028, 20. 202 million in 2029, and then 44.4 million in 2030. That is a void year, and the Eagles will probably have to renegotiate at that point or structure it differently.

I end up won't even make it that far. Exactly. But again, practically a two-year, $50 million contract. Okay. So a little bit more palatable. Does that change how you feel about it at all? I mean, that seems like how it was reported. Yeah.

Yeah, I was going to say, it doesn't change how I feel about it because I always expected there to be some salary cap chicanery going on. The more I've thought about it, though, the more I feel fine about it from an Eagles perspective. That extra third was, again, something that we didn't necessarily anticipate, but I still think they got good value. You'd rather give up a two or two-thirds? Good question.

I probably would rather give up two-thirds. I don't know that sounds. I mean, plus, I mean, let's be fair, it was not, you know, it wasn't 60, whatever they gave up. It was 98. 98, which is, yeah, comp pick. And, you know, they're expecting. And I don't, we don't know which they're, oh, it has to be there.

Because it's already agreed to. So, you know, if you're the Eagles, you are expecting that to be a late, a late third-round pick. You get the comp pick back for Jalen Phillips. Yeah. So you're probably really thinking you're not trading down 10 spots, but you're giving up 10 spots. Yeah, I think it probably is. You rather give up two thirds.

I was thinking the trade value charts would maybe sway the other way. But honestly, you're not trading 98 and 81 to get up to, you know, pick in the second round. Let's call it 58 or 60. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. What else is on your mind? I will be honest, Nate.

You have to see these guys on the field this weekend. I know. It's exciting. Yeah. the Eagles will have rookie minicamp later this week. We will be there to get eyes on these guys. Two things on my mind. The first thing, the conversation with Nate,

it was really good to hear like some practical use cases for these guys that aren't total projections. You know, like Eli Stowers on the RPO, Mackay Lemon running sail routes. Like those are things we've seen the Eagles do and do well. So I appreciated that insight. I thought it was, you know, a little bit of a different take on what we had talked about.

Doing it and doing it and doing it well. You do you I'm guessing you agree yeah sure okay and then this is a fun a fun note Olivia Reiner put this out I mean Northwestern football put it out but Olivia Reiner Northwestern alum

A little inside cooking there Yeah she definitely was She probably has them on tweet notification Okay So Luke Acres is going to be At the Eagles rookie mini camp That is the son of Eagles kicker David Acres

We can all count Who What do you mean we can all count That's no throwback. Is that a David Acres joke that I... It's an Andy Reid blaming David Acres for a playoff loss. Why don't I remember this?

I mean, what year was it? 2009? I should remember that. Or was it not a playoff loss? It was the end of the regular season loss? Anyway. I had a signed picture of David Acres in my room when I was a kid. Nice.

Kicker slash punter. Kicker slash punter for David Acres. That could be useful in Trent Camp. Or Luke Acres. Yeah. An extra leg. some bodies, yeah. Extra leg out there.

I mean, yeah. He also accepted an invite from the Chicago Bears, apparently, which I guess the mini camps are on different times or different dates. So they can stretch it. Was it 2010 playoff loss? Somebody in a home game because it was a home game because I remember it was at the, it was in the home press conference room. So must have been, because 2009 was at Dallas.

There must have been playoffs 2010. Okay. I mean, that tracks. And Claire is right. It was also the same way. at Acres kid. I don't know if it was the same child, but it was in the hospital.

And so it was particularly unnecessary from Andy. And generally speaking out of character. Yeah, well, be interesting to see Luke Acres out there. I was going to say, Luke Cakers. Luke Acres.

Yes. Was it the Green Bay one? Was that what it was? 2012? It was the year 2011. That's on the heels of Sean. season. Got it.

Okay. It tracks that I wouldn't remember that because in 2011 I had other things on my mind. What is that supposed to mean? I mean, I was like a 17-year-old boy. What do you think at me? You can't watch the playoffs because you're too horny? I didn't say that. I was still one of those social media graphics.

I was missed the game. I was watching the games. I was watching the games when I probably. wasn't consuming as much coverage of the team when I was like a 17 year old. Okay. So it was the 2010 season. Yeah, 2010. Okay. Yeah. I stand by it. I think that that's reasonable. J. Smith, January of 2011, two rocked up to. No, I didn't even say that. I was trying to could have been trying to get my license, trying to get into a good college. I had a lot of things

to worry about. Oh, yeah, good college. That's what it was. Shout out Temple University. All right. And speaking of. EJ being horny. Join us in over time. E.J. has a proposition that he would like to give the audience. If this video...

You don't get to set the like goal, I do. Okay, what's the like goal? What did we do for the Irish accent? Was it 500? No. No, I think it was 500. I can... I'm not even going to look. Although this is important.

Let's call it 800 likes 800 likes I know what the audience is capable of Okay So if they want it They're gonna have to they're gonna have to like the video So 800 likes And I will Google

Lemon Party I do not know what it means I have not Googled it I will wait until Bovertime In case it is as inappropriate As everyone seems to It suggests it is I will Google it on the show

For everyone to see my reaction. 800. I think that's fair. Wow. You think that's worse than a whole show of Irish accents?

What was the light go from the last? They say it was 400 in the chat. I don't believe them. This is what they would want me to think. It was 400. All right, fine. 750.

Okay. 750 likes on this video. And I will Google it in overtime. We can give them a couple of days if you want. Okay. Give them until Monday.

Okay. That's my offer. It's not that bad. It's a lovely thing. I don't know what you're talking about, and I won't unless the video gets 750 likes. Okay. There you go. Anything else?

No, this was a good discussion. I think we had some good insight from our guests. Kyle Lemon Day. Yeah, so we can be proud of. Fran will join us virtually tomorrow. Tomorrow we're going to go through our shadow drafts, the alternative universe. versus for what the Seagull's draft class could have looked like. Fran, I know you're in there.

I see you in the chat. How should we handle the Jonathan Grenard of it all? For instance, if one of us has an edge player at the top of our board at 20, is it okay to say that you would draft that player and then not make the Grenard trade and then you draft somebody else at 98? I think that probably is the right way to handle it. Or you can just decide that you would still do the Grinard trade? Something to think about.

Feel afraid to text me. He'll text you. Okay. Shout out Fran. Got out Fran. Shout out Fran. Shout out Nate. Shout out Coach Simmons.

Got out Lindsey. Get out Ed. That'll do it. For this episode of the PHLY Eagles podcast. Thank you, E.J. Thank you everybody else for joining us. Good week of shows. One more tomorrow.

No show Friday. No show Friday. But we will have likely some coverage on YouTube or wherever else about the Rooking Minicamp and Nick C. Ryan are talking. So don't forget about us. We'll talk to tomorrow 2 o'clock. And as always, we love you.