PHLY Philadelphia Eagles Podcast - Inside Fran Duffy’s NFL Combine scouting process

Episode Date: February 27, 2025

On this week’s edition of the PHLY Draft Show with Fran Duffy, we learn about how Fran approaches the combine. What drills matter most to him? Who had the most memorable performances from years past? As the likes of Cam Ward, Jalon Walker and James Pearce Jr. prepare to show their stuff, here’s how you can watch like a pro. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hello, everybody, and welcome to the PHLY draft show with Fran Duffy. Now, Fran is there at the Combine. I'm a little bit envious. We'll get to the, you know, the reactions from all the players who you have seen, Fran. But listen, there's a lot of draft popcorn available right now. You put up your mock draft, which people can see. You're covering everything here for all-PHLY.com. And obviously, you're going to have lots of thoughts on the results of testing.

But as we record this episode, before the playoff, test. We weren't like really get into the weeds here. This is going to be an episode for the draft sickos. We want to just sort of talk process with you. Yeah. And look, it's this week is one of my favorite in the calendar. You know, it's a long week in Indianapolis, certainly. This week or this year I'm here for eight days. Usually it's a eight or nine day trip for me out here. And I think when you break up the week into little chunks, you know, it starts off. Today is how things kicked off. We're recording this Tuesday night. So head coaches and GMs from all across the NFL, all speak with the media. Wednesday morning, players start to speak with the media. So I haven't

spoken to any players yet, but the first group that tests on Thursday, they speak on Wednesday and then basically just go through the rotation there. And so you have the player speaking, and then Thursday on-field action begins and you start to just kind of break the week up. It's a long week, but so much information to be able to pull away from every single day out here in Indianapolis. Okay, so let's talk about what you are doing this week. I know today, as we record this on a Tuesday, although this episode will go live on a Thursday.

And by the way, before we get to that, let me just say, next week, starting next week, the PHAI draft show with Fran Duffy, we're going to be starting to go live Tuesdays at noon. We're going to be doing those bad boys live from them through the rest of draft season. So join us then. We'll be able to answer your questions and all that good stuff. But for this episode, today you're sort of spending the day,

listening to coaches in GMs, writing down some sort of nuggets along the way. And I know that you, part of your sickness is that you have like extensive notes on all of these general managers. And as you have said before, a little part of you dies when one of them gets fired because that's like a bunch of research that you have to flush down the drain. So what like what kinds of things are you interested to hear from those guys? Yeah, like the thought process behind things that they prioritize with, you know, with, players that they target in the draft. You know, because look, at the end of the day, you know, coaches and general managers,

they go to the podium. They go up to the days, you know, whatever, however, whatever term we want to use. And they lie often, right? We know this. You know, they will, they will speak in false, in falsities. They'll, you know, lead you astray.

So you can't believe everything they say. That said, one area where they can't lie is where they draft players and where they sign players, right? I mean, at the end of the day, like, you're, you're putting your, you're putting your livelihood at stake there with those selections, with the players that you target. And so over the course of time, you could find trends. You can find something. Now, some of it is circumstantial.

Some of it might be, look, hey, you've got a one-year sample where every single player that's Carolina Panthers selected with Zach Berman's favorite GM, Dan Morgan last year. Every single one of them was Power 5. Four of their first five players were 21 years old. Was that just how the board fell? Was that, you know, was there a purpose behind that? And so one of the things I did Tuesday, I talked with Dan Morgan, you know, for a couple minutes and said like, hey, like, brought those brought those up. And I said, you know, was that was that something that was done purposely? The Power 5 thing, I think that was more of just how the board fell. But he gave me a little bit something on terms of the 21-year-olds. He was like, you know, that that was something where we wanted to get younger. Dave Canales, you know, that coaching staff, they feel like they wanted some youth and they're willing to let those guys develop. We are very much a developmental football team. And so,

we were good with being able to bring guys in that are a little bit younger. Some GMs and coaches will play ball with some of these questions and some don't, which is fine. That's obviously their prerogative. But those are just like those little tiny nuggets that I appreciate as someone who kind of nerds out over team building because everybody has philosophies in terms of how they feel about a lot of these topics. But the other thing too is as we're doing mock drafts and things like that, obviously you and I, like knowing the Eagles the way that we do, we laugh when someone, you know, mocks a lot of linebacker to the Eagles in the first round, right?

We've done that for years. You know, Howie Rosemut would never do that. I try and take a lot of pride in when I do a mock draft or when I go on a show in another market of not being able to bring things to the table or like that's just not realistic. And so just having all of that knowledge helps me out in that way. Are there a couple or things that stand out about certain GMs and their tendencies that really do like or have overtime proven to be true? Because as you say, it is it can be so.

circumstantial. Like where you're talking about, you know, six to ten picks in the draft and maybe they had a non-power, they had three non-power five guys ranked ahead of the guy they ended up taking, and that's just not the way that the board fell. Just because that's who they drafted, it doesn't necessarily mean that those were, you know, the things that they cared about, it could be a little bit just random. But are there ones that over time that, that have really stuck out to you, that, you know, John Schneider or whoever, somebody who has a long, range of picks is really interested in certain things. Yeah, I mean, there are certain areas where it's like, okay, like the Cleveland Browns, we talked about that with Andrew Barry, you know,

like early, the first two couple days of the draft, it's going to be underclassmen from Power Five schools, you know, like that's it's going to be underclassmen of Power Five schools. Now there are times where they have bucked that trend, you know, you go, especially over the last couple of years since the underclassmen numbers have gone down and decreased. Well, that lowers the pool that they can fish from, right? And so you've seen them take some seniors as they've gone, you know, they took Cedric Tillman. I believe that was Cedric Tillman, I believe was the first one.

They took Zach Sinter, the guard from Michigan, you know, so they've taken a couple guys, the fact that I was able to name both those guys off the top of the head that tells you all you need to know about this sickness, by the way. But you know, they've taken a couple seniors on day two in recent years. And I think, again, you start, you have to kind of find your spots on where, you know, which lines are non-negotiable and which lines are you able to be a little bit more pliable with. And that was some of the conversations that I did have today where it's like, okay, like where are those areas where you're willing to make those concessions?

I talked with Quasi Adolfo Mensa, the GM of the Minnesota Vikings. And, you know, it's interesting. He said something early in the press conference where people talk about certain parts of the draft as very binary. He was talking about the quarterback position. He was like, oh, like, you're either a top five guy or you're not worth. having on your football team. Very binary. And, you know, so I filed that up a little bit later and said, you know, people look at

analytically forward organizations. You would throw the Eagles into there, you know, in that situation as well. And said, like, okay, like, if you are an analytically forward organization, you are typically going to draft younger. You're going to draft guys that have, you know, aren't undersized guys that, you know, that test well. But then when you look at the Minnesota Vikings, like since Quasi has been installed as general manager, since he got hired, they've taken guys that were under 180.

pounds, guys that were older, they haven't taken a lot of underclassmen, you know, things that kind of go against that. And to me, though, as I'm sitting here looking at that, I look at it as he's trying to find market inefficiencies, right? He's trying to find places where like, all right, we're going to zig while everybody else is zagging. We talked about that with Howie Roseman and, you know, some of the things that they did a year ago. And so I think when you look at it, it's, it's always interesting. You don't want to just stay hard and fast with a lot of this. It's because it's not a definite, And that's one of the things I try and make sure I always articulate is that just because that's the way Andrew Barry has acted over the course of his time as a general manager. You know, if there was a senior, let's say they weren't picking at number two, if they were picking number eight.

If there was a senior there that made sense, I wouldn't completely rule it out. But that might serve as a tiebreaker, you know, in that kind of scenario. And then you get into a conversation about just as you hinted at, like the changing nature of the college football landscape, right, where there are fewer underclass. and there are probably fewer guys from non-Big Five schools because if they stay in school longer, they're probably going to transfer to a bigger school. Like all of that stuff sort of changes the historical trends that you might have had. So it's difficult, but, you know, that's your job to wait through that. Okay.

We move beyond that, which is, you know, sort of helping your putting all the pieces together league-wide. And let's focus on the prospects themselves who will begin testing and doing all that stuff on Thursday. you're going to be where? Well, I'm going to be in the stadium, for sure. Where I have posted up over the last decade is I usually sit over by the broad jump, which is like near side. I can tell you like section number and stuff like that, but there's a spot on the sideline.

Lower level. Lower level where, okay, like it's, I would usually sit like 10 rows up. I prefer the broad jump to the vertical. Number one, they have this huge. monstrosity of the thing like, you know, in front of the vertical so that like prevent side lines, okay. Yeah, but also, I just think the broad jump is a little bit more applicable. It's just the people that I've talked with.

You see the explosiveness. Yeah, in terms of like seeing that explosiveness come through, the people that I've talked to have said like, yeah, like we value the broad a little bit more than the vert. But then also it's a great opportunity. Those guys are standing right in front of you in a straight line along the sideline. So it's a great place to body type players and just kind of get a sense of how guys are put together. That's something that I will take notes of as I'm seeing guys go through. But then also, it's right where the position workouts happen, right in the middle of the field.

So I'm right there, great sight line. So that's where I have always set up, having a media credential now as opposed to a team credential, which I had in the years past, might change that. But I've had media people sit with me in my spot in years past. So I think that there's some wiggle room there. We'll find out. Time will tell you. Yeah, you're a friend, Duffy.

You'll open up the red carpet for you. I don't know about that. So logistically, you've got like 100 players out there. How are you taking notes? Like, what is your paper like? What's going on here? So my first couple years, it would be, I had like a notepad, right? And, you know, because, you know, you go to the senior bowl, you go to the shrine bowl.

You get these notepads. And it's like, all right. Now, they used to be great. They've gotten smaller and smaller over the years. And they are like the size of like a hotel key card. It's not. Yeah. It used to be a nice thick one.

So, well, now, over the last four or five years, as, you know, doing more podcasts around the draft and doing more content around the draft, and I want to be able to come back to my hotel room after workouts and be able to immediately verbalize what I just saw, which can be tough because, like you mentioned, there's a lot of guys, and it's, it is rapid fire. So my sick-old, you've never, you had never seen this until we talked about it. The, the, my note-taking process during the combine has evolved to the point where, I am able to very efficiently go through. And I've got it right here.

I've got this binder, all right? It's a thick binder. You need a cover page on that binder. I've got, well, yeah, it's the same binder I've used since like 2018 or so. I think you should have Francis. I think you should have Francis make you a cover page. That's not a bad idea.

He honestly, like, I've got enough that he's, he will sit while I'm watching if he's home and like, will sit and like draw for me. That'll be the next project I have for him. like draw a couple football players and I'll put that in there. But what I'll do is every single, because I know all the drills that they go through, not just the athletic testing portion, but I personally put a lot of value into the positional workout.

And so, you know, a lot of people know like the gauntlet drill, right? All these things that the wide receivers, they're running across the width of the field, they catch the balls in rapid succession on the fly and then they run into the end zone, right? each drill or each position rather has about five or six position specific drills that they go through. So I have the names of all these drills all typed out along with the athletic testing numbers, space over for some note taking. And then it's literally just in order. All right.

Because they go in order. It's DL. 01, DL02, DL3. You don't have time to be writing down like, oh, like Joe Smith did this. Bob Wolf did that. So all of it's typed out, all of it's printed out. And now I'm just flying through the paper, bang, bang, bang. And basically the way I do it is every rep I give a, I give, like, one or two buzzwords,

and then I give it a letter grade. It's an A for a positive rep, like, oh, that was a good rep, B for a neutral rep, and then C for a negative rep. And at the end of the day, I go back through, because there'll be some time, like, all right, the defensive tackles finished, the edge group's up next. We've got like 20 minutes. So I'll go back through it. I'm like, all right, like, who had the most A's, who had the most C's?

And I can very quickly be able to sit there and say, like, wow, Abdul Carter had an outstanding workout. Look at he, I gave him an A's for all of these, for all of these reps or, you know, so and so had a bad workout, right? And so, you know, I've gotten to the point now where I can leave, be walking out of the stadium. And it's also helpful too, like, you know, while I'm, if I'm walking through, because usually you're, you're bumping shoulders with, with scouts and with coaches and say like,

oh, like, you know, I saw, you know, so and so did this. what did you think of him? Like, just very easy to be able to recall that information. And then I get back and can start producing stuff. So that's the good thing for, by the way, all of our diehards that are subscribed on all phtly.com, all of those notes now, it just makes it so much faster, be able to translate that up and get it up into the database. So that is my plan to be able to get all that stuff, get back to my room, get it all into my

database, and then copy that over to all phtly.com. So you should have an idea of like, all right, who stood out in those position drills? Now, far be it for me to offer any kind of feedback on your process here. But I'm just trying to think efficiently. Okay. The strokes in an A and a B, C is quick, but A and B feels a little bit less efficient than just a plus and a minus or whatever or a check, you know? Here's the thing. So I do have modifiers where I will.

will throw a plus or a minus in there every once in a while. So if it's an A plus, sometimes there's an A plus. Sometimes there's a, you know, if a guy just slips and falls and falls on his face, that's going to be a C minus rep, right? So they're going to throw some of those. I forget. Yes, so you'll have some of those. And so, yeah, I do throw the pluses and minuses will make their way into that, into that as well.

Okay. All right. Now, with regard to those position workouts. Yeah. What positions move the needle for you most in these settings? My personal favorite position workout is the DB workout, watching especially the corners, but certainly the safeties as well. But watching those guys go through it, it is much more, you know, I get more out of that than any of the other ones just because, you know,

to me it best replicates the movements that they're asked to do in a game. You know, you watch those guys go in reverse. You see them, you know, break out a 45-degree angle on a, throw in front of them or decelerate, then flip their hips and turn and run and find the ball. To me, like, there's so many of those drills. Look, each position has certain drills that, to me, like, I value more than others in the workout. But for the DB stuff, because it is such a movement-based position and it's such a reactive

position, I personally get more out of that. And, you know, I love watching DBs. And so I think that probably has something to do with it as well. But to me, like Friday afternoon, Friday evening, watching the DBs go, that that is. is my favorite day of workouts here in Indy. And obviously, the context helps here because it's not just you're seeing one guy work out and he's on the field. It's you're seeing one after another.

And so you're able to see who moves differently. Right. And one of the things, too, about it, you know, I think the best, the best case study for it. And I'm so glad that some of these numbers now are coming out because it honestly helps like back up what my eyes are seeing, you know, last year at the, for the receiver workout. Because the first thing the guys will do, they come out and they'll do the jumps before any, before cameras start rolling.

So a group comes out and they do broad jump and vertical jump. They get split up into groups and then in the switch. And then they will go, they'll blow the whistle. The guys will stretch, warm up, warm down. And then they'll go over and do the 40s. And that's when like the show on NFL network starts. So, all right, they're going to line up. They're going to do the 40s.

You know, Mark Gorecheck, the longtime instructor of over the 40-yard dash. He's going to be over there. He'll walk guys through it. And then everybody runs through first. round of 40s then the second round of 40s. And the, the thing that then happens, right? So Keon Coleman last year, that's going back to the case study.

Keon Coleman ran like, what was it, 472 or something like that? The receiver from Florida State. And everybody's like, up, stock down. Keon Coleman can't run, can't do this. He's not athletic enough. But then he goes through the position workout. I'm like, man, like, he looks awesome in the position workout. Like he was, to me, like one of my favorite player workouts from the receiver

group last year. and then as I'm leaving the stadium or might have been as the workout was going through it starts to come out that the NFL has started to time the gauntlet drill to see like all right like who are the guys that are the fastest through the gauntlet and keon coleman despite the fact that he had the slowest 40

had the fastest gauntlet and didn't put a ball on the ground and I'm like yes like this is I love this and it's just a great way to show like the difference between say like play speed and time speed and some of the things that you're able to get out of it keon coleman said he ended up going 33rd overall to the Buffalo Bills had a solid rookie year. I think the future is bright for him.

So I think when you look at that, that is a perfect example of something that I try and get out of the combine that maybe others in the media space don't. Look, the athletic testing is really important. Obviously, I do take that, you know, I value that greatly. But for me, I want to be able to see who are the guys that, A, that test well, but does that movement also show up when they're going through the position workout? out, but also, like, who are the guys that the coaches and scouts are getting on because they did a drill wrong? Who are the guys that are the ring leaders in their position groups and things like you, you pick on some of that as well. How do guys react when things don't go well? There are a number, I remember, like, some receivers last year where the quarterbacks were struggling during the workout and the ball is coming out high and you see like receivers just getting pissed.

Then you see other guys where like, all right, they, you know, they're getting back in the back of the line. They give me another rep. You just kind of pick up on those little, those little anecdotes. that maybe mean something and maybe mean nothing. But again, you got to sort through it. So as we talk about like risers and fallers. Okay. And people are watching your draft guide, which is a living document available to all

the diehards, realistically, how much might you bump somebody up or down based on the way that this week goes? It's possible that some guys could move up for me because let's say I've watched two games of a player. A lot of the players, you know, I don't want to say like a majority of the players, but there are a lot of players on the database where I've watched two games, three games, because the way that I try and approach the process is I'll watch two or three at a time. And then when I get to this part of the calendar, now it's about, all right, I've got all the tape.

Let me watch all of the receivers' targets from this past year, all of the DBs times that he was targeted in space, whatever, whatever cutups I want to be able to watch. And so I want to be able to say like, okay, I'll go back and I have like two or three pass-throughs on a player. I will make my evaluation based off of two games. That's my, those are my notes. But let's say I've got a question about, you know, you know what? Like I don't know that this guy's athletic enough at his size to be a starter.

I think he's probably more of a bat. Let's say it's a pass rusher. He's more of a first guy off the bench to me. That affects where I've got him in the pecking order, right, in terms of what my projection is. I don't do round grade projection. So you won't see me like when I talk about a guy like, oh, he looks like, you know, I would grade him as a second round pick. I talk about it in terms of what I think his role is in the NFL.

though, which can also be tough because I'm not grading for one specific team. But I will say, like, this guy looks like a starter. And I have started broken up into a couple different tiers there. But like he could be a top end backup. He could be a role player. I've got all of these different tiers to it. So if a guy goes and he tests better than I thought and he looks better physically than I thought, maybe that, you know, like the, you know, you get those physical affirmations that way.

Well, yeah, I'm going to bump him up because now I feel a little bit better about the upside. Maybe now I've talked with some people behind the scenes. I get a better sense of his character. That could help a guy rise and fall as well. You know, and so look, it's it's tough for one person. My friend Ben Fennell will always say like every draft analyst is a one person scouting department. It's exactly right. You're you don't have the luxury of, you know, 20 people going out and canvassing the country. So I'm relying on my sources, a lot of whom I'm catching up with over the course of the week here in India. All right. Can we go like quickly position by position you tell me, like, what's the one thing that you're looking for?

And then maybe one memorable performance from over the years. Yeah, I like that. One quick thing before we start. So as of this recording, I'm like mostly done them. By the time this airs, all of them will be done. If you go into the draft guide, so if you're a diehard, you go to the draft guide, on the right-hand side above where all the position buttons are, so you can click and go position by position through all the write-ups,

you will see like the combine cheat sheets. And on there, you will get a sense. So you're getting ready for front seven workouts on Thursday. You can go and you can see, all right, here are the players that Fran thinks are going to test really well at each position. Here are the guys that if they don't test well, don't freak out. Like, trust the tape. Like the tape is good because I'm not expecting to test well.

I think that this is all about expectations this event. So if a guy goes in and I don't expect him to run well and he doesn't run well, don't count them against it twice. But it's, yeah, it's a bunch of different categories like that. So use it as a cheat sheet if you want. If you're a diehard, you can go and you have access to that. So, yeah, I just wanted to give that a quick blow. I mean, the amount of information that is in this draft guide, it's unbelievable.

I mean, it's truly like you have access to your brain. Yeah, it's a scary, a scary place to be. Yeah, we need a tab for charcutory. Look, we can have that discussion as well. And I can talk about all the different spreads that you put on different cheeses. We can have those conversations. That might be more of a May conversation as opposed to a February or March one. Okay.

All right. Let's talk quarterback. Tell me like what's, you know, you always hear like you want, GMs go to want, they want to watch a quarterback to see how the ball comes out of his hand. Yeah. Does that move the needle for you or is there something else that you are looking to see? A thousand percent. I think that that is, it is very important.

You know, that's why it is disappointing for me when a guy like Shador Sanders isn't going to throw because this is my only chance. to be able to see him live. That's not the case for 32 teams, right? So all 32 teams, whether it's the pro day, private workouts, whatever it is. Obviously, you know, teams have been on campus, been able to see him throw live. So they're not missing out on that. So now I have to kind of rely on word of mouth, people that get to see him throw live

and get their take on it. But, no, that is the number one thing I'm looking for from a quarterback standpoint. It is not, oh, you know, his completion percentage in the workout was X. you know, oh, you got a bunch of overthrows. They're working with guys that they've never, mostly have never thrown to before. They're working with players. Receivers, sometimes, some guys are going full speed.

Other guys are jogging through the workout, right? It just depends. And it's going to change from rep to rep, drill to drill, player to player. So, yeah, I'm not expecting everything to look super clean. I want to see how the ball comes out. And look, look, on throws, you generally want to see a guy look at more accurate than not. But, again, I'm not like grading the completion percentage in the workout. And is there a performance that comes to mind from over the years?

C.J. Stroud, for a couple years ago. C.J. Stroud, I remember, like, leaving that and thinking, like, whoa, because I was a Bryce Young over C.J. Stroud a lot. But I remember leaving that because Bryce Young, I don't think Bryce, I'm pretty sure it didn't work out. And so, and Stroud did. And I remember thinking, like, man, like, all right, like, Stroud, if he's not number one, like, he's going to be the number two pick. And obviously, he's been outstanding, more so as a rookie than this past year. But yeah, his workout stood out for sure.

Do you think about like these, you know, these are the kinds of conversations that might be had in a larger scouting department as they're just, you know, having beers talking about guys. Like, you know, Shadur Sanders not throwing. It's not really an alpha thing to do, right? Like if you're if you're the alpha, don't you want to go out there and throw the ball? Yeah. And I was talking with some people about it today.

And it was somebody for a team that could be, in the quarterback market and uh you're like oh you know like it is what it is like guys out of these out of these workouts all the time uh i think that the conversation then went to like do you think cam ward's going to throw and have you seen the videos of uh ward and should or like working out together yeah so like there are clearly like some competitive juices between those two guys i kind of think like a should because the the reports and again we're recording this a couple days before the workout and so the news might come out beforehand uh you know before this uh the this airs. But the reports were like that he was undecided, the Cam Ward was undecided.

I kind of think Shador's decision might make Ward want to do it more. Yeah. I kind of think that he might want to work out more now. So yeah, we'll see. I do think that some people look at it that way. Others are more forgiving. Okay. How about running back? What's what's important for you to see with a running back? I like being able to see guys. There's there's two aspects. Number one, you want to be able to see like the light feet and the lateral quickness. There's a lot of drills. There's actually a Deuce Staley drill and Deuce was working with the Eagles when this drill got instituted

and it's still called the Deuce Staley drill. It's funny. There's two of them and it's Deuce Daly drill one and Duce Daly drill two. They haven't given it any other names. But it's a lot of, you know, get up the ground, get your feet up and down in the pads through the bags

and you know, they explode out of it. Right. And so you certainly like to be able to see that. It's a lot of change direction work. But then the other aspect is just the past game stuff. you know, they'll run the, not a full route tree, but out of the back field, they'll run a full route tree, how natural they look, being able to catch the football. Are they able to make plays down the field? Do they look comfortable doing that?

That also speaks to the athleticism portion, you know, of the evaluation for those guys. And good contact for guys who may be coming from different offenses. Yes, so some guys are used a lot in the past game. You know, I think of in this class, Woody Marks from USC. Like he's had like at least 40 catches every year he's been in college. He played for Mike Leach in Mississippi State and was very, very active in the past game. But then other guys, you know, like aren't used that way. But it doesn't mean that they can't do it.

Just, you know, like Jonathan Taylor was barely targeted as a running back out of the backfield for Wisconsin. But had a solid workout, you know, when it came to that stuff here. So I like being able to see what that upside looks like, especially because so many players, it is a question mark. Okay. We get the Jonathan Taylor shout there. So maybe we move on to wide receiver. The Christian McAfrey Receiving workout was special.

And I remember talking with receivers coaches leaving that. Receivers coaches came to the running back workout specifically to see McCaffrey catch balls because there were some that thought like he could be a slot receiver when he was coming out of Stanford. Yeah, that's a good one. All right, wide receiver. You talked about the importance of the gauntlet

with Keon Coleman and moving his way through much quicker than he runs. Anything else to shout out there? Yeah, the gauntlet would be number one. And you just want to be able to see guys just look, look natural, look smooth, catching the football overall. You know, like over the course of the entire workout, they'll run the full tree, you know, short stuff, intermediate stuff. And then, you know, down the field. Some guys get a lot of reps catching balls over the shoulder, 25 plus yards downfield and others don't. And so being able to see certain players put through the paces there, that is valuable.

Anybody, any workouts from over the years? I mentioned Coleman. Um, hmm. I mean, no, I, I feel like I remember AJ having a good work at one. Nothing like strikes out.

I was like, oh, yeah, that one was a really special. Nothing like Sam Bradford's Pro Day. Right. I mean, that's the stuff of legends.

Yes. Okay, tight ends. Obviously a position where you have to do a lot of different things. What do you want to see from, from those guys? Yeah, I mean, gauntlet you put in there, certainly, you know,

because they'll go through that, that workout as well. or through that drill. So you definitely want to see them run through the gauntlet, all the same things you say about receivers. You know, the big thing, I guess I didn't really talk through, like, what I want to see,

you know, when you're going through the gauntlet, is you want to be able to obviously, like, don't put the ball on the ground, right? A lot of guys will try and cheat the drill where you'll see it because basically like the first pass comes from the left, then the next one comes to the right.

Next one comes to the left. So they're constantly like looking back and forth. And guys will cheat it where basically they like almost like pat the ball down. And it's not. catching it, right? Like, you want to be able to, like, see the guy like, all right, pull the ball in and then dump it, dump it off to the other side. So, like, actually complete the catch. But then you also see guys slow down and go slow through it. So I mentioned, like, Keon Coleman running fast through it. That's big.

And then you just want to be able to see them finish. So that's what we're looking for in the gauntlet. I want to see tight ends do it. But then to me, also, uh, the blocking drills with the bags. It's not the same as trying to block a 265 pound defensive end. But you just want to be able to see like, all right, like guys that weren't asked to put their hand in the ground and like explode out of a stance and you know and you know initiate a block with force do you know i remember dallas scotter you know him showing up in some of those drills um you know you you want to be able to see like what does a guy look like in that scenario again it's not apples to apples with being able to see it on film but you want to be able to get a little taste

of it how about offensive line what do you want to see from the from the big fellas as as jeff stoutland is moving them around yeah because uh stout is very active uh during the o line workout as you would imagine. He usually runs a drill or two every single year. I think for me, it's certainly the movement stuff, guys in reverse, the fluid hips, the light feet. A big thing to look for, and this is something you look for on film as well, but a big thing to look for is when guys are moving in reverse, the ease of movement and a good way to be able to determine that is you watch their head, right? Because if guys are really stressed, a lot of it is like, perky jerky, like their head is very violent, like their head moving back and

forth, the guys that are doing it kind of naturally and with ease, it's graceful and there's not a lot of movement with their head. That's a good tip. I like that. Yeah, that is one that someone taught me a bunch of years back. And so that is certainly one to look for when you're going through the O line. Any memorable offensive line workouts? A bunch.

You know, the, hmm, I remember Jadrick Wills looking really good out of Alabama. That was one that I remember. A future eagle. Well, potentially. That was one that I remember standing out. I enjoy watching the O-line workout. So off the top of my head, I can't think of one in particular, but there's always a few every year.

I'm like, oh, like that was. And honestly, like athletic testing for offensive linemen is also a really good indicator. The shuttles in terms of future success. That's a big one to watch. All right. Athletic testing also very important for the defensive lineman. You want to see that explosiveness that you're talking about as you're watching those guys do the broad jump. You want to see their three cone times.

Is there anything from the position drills that moves the needle for you? Yep. There are certain bag drills that are big. You want to be able to see like the violence through it and the ability to gain ground, go through it fast. Those are big. The NFL has started doing like simul cams. The way they do it for the 40-yard dash, they'll do it for those bag drills. And so you kind of see like, all right, like this guy was flying through it.

And you see like the violence in the back. I remember like Brayden Fisk last year was really impressive, you know, in those drills. But for me, the one that I, that I love, the most is the figure eight drill where they take these two huge like hula hoop looking things. I mean, they're probably a diameter of like, you know, 15, 20 feet. Like they're pretty big hula hoops. They're put right next to each other with towels on the very tips of the circle. And so the guys basically run the figure eight. And when they hit the, I guess what would it be the apex of the circle? When they hit the bottom of the circle and then the top of the circle, you have to basically

crouch down while still going at full speed. pick up the towel and then when you hit the next turn drop the towel. And so you basically are able to see flexibility burst, you know, the balance, all of that show up. So you want to be able to see who are the guys where they don't have to labor as much when they're asked to do that. And that's a good way to be able to see like, like Derek Barnett would be awesome at that drill, right? You talk about like his flexibility in his lower half. You know, when he was coming out, that was a drill. I don't think they were doing it back then.

This is still a relatively new drill that they've put in. But that's one that I really enjoy. Now, linebacker is interesting to me because to me, I would think that linebacker is the position where all you need is just to sort of hit a baseline of athletic testing. And the testing results matter the least because it's really all about how fast you react on the football field to football stuff, right? But there must be some things that are interesting to you. What are they? Yeah, I mean, I will say that there are certain thresholds that you want to be able to hit. Sure, like you got a clear line.

You want to hit that baseline, right? Like, if you don't hit 4-8 in the 40 as a linebacker, that's troublesome. So I think when, but for me, like in the position workout, I do want to see like what they look like in space. Like a lot of the spatial stuff I do think can be important. And it just kind of, again, determines what the upside is of a player. You know, I'm going to be doing a big board here for PHOI.com in the coming weeks. It won't be next week, but it'll probably be the week after. people might be taken aback by some of the positional value stuff that is that is going to be present in my in my thing and to me like linebacker is most reflected that way because honestly like if you are a linebacker that can't play in space I don't say you're a dime a dozen but you're essentially a dime a dozen like those guys aren't you're not going to be cracking like that that top 100 and it's not even just like oh yeah like I'm keeping you off but in terms of the way that I tier players those guys just get bumped all the way down it's the same thing at running back just if you are not

like a an RB1, RB2 type, then you are going to be pretty far down the list in terms of just, and it's based off of salaries that the NFL hands out. So like the NFL like tells you where they put their money where their mouth is in terms of the money that they give out to veterans, you know, that play these certain roles.

And so, you know, if you are, if that's what I think you are, you know, if I think, I'm not to call out this player, but like,

if you're Boston Scott, if I think you're going to be Boston Scott, like that's a useful player, but that what does that guy get like on the market? What do teams feel? about playing that player, it's not like a huge amount of money. And so I'm not going to have you high up on my board that way. So, you know, again, there are examples of that. But I think when you look at linebacker, that is a threshold that I think you need to be able to clear. So for me, like the space

play, the space stuff is important for me. Yeah, I think with linebacker, it's interesting as to just to keep it Eagles as we think about like the Zach Bond decision and why the Eagles have shied away from linebackers in the past. I think one thing that gets lost in the conversation is that it's not just about positional value and the market. It's about like the projection at that position is very difficult. Like the first round linebackers are littered with guys who were just like, I don't want to be mean, but like total busts in the NFL. Like absolutely did not live up to that draft slot. And so if if the value is this and it's not the most important position and it's it's not anything close to a sure thing that you're going to get what you think you're going to get there,

all of a sudden the calculation becomes very weighted towards it not being worth it, whereas like the Zach Bond decision is now that you know that this guy in this system can be this type of player, it's a much different calculation. Maybe you are willing to pay for it because there's no guesswork to it. Yeah. And to me, like that's, you know, staying from an Eagles focus thing. that's why when people were talking about nicoby dean when he was coming out of georgia as a first round pick like as a top 25 pick i just i just never saw that you know and so for me like where the eagles got him in third round i was like okay like that that to me like makes sense from a valuation standpoint because to your point like Zach bonn has shown that he can be a three down presence what he can do in coverage what he can do as a rusher if you're not that if you're not that guy i can't spend a first round pick on this on this player right and so there's only a couple guys in it honestly like in every draft at most you're talking like one or two that you feel really good can hit that ceiling. You know, this year you look at like Jahad Campbell from Alabama. And then you look at Carson Suesinger from UCLA as the two options that I feel really good

about definitely hitting that as a as that kind of three down presence. Those guys can be really hard to find. And so if I don't think you're that, it's almost like a rags and riches type of deal where it's like, all right, there's going to be the guys at the very top and then a wide gap until you get down to the bottom. All right. Anything else that we should know about your process over the course of the next half week or so? Yeah, I mean, no, look, it's, it's a little bit. Once you get to Thursday, it turns it a little bit into Groundhog Day.

It's early mornings because the media availability starts at eight. Drills usually don't finish at the stadium until it changes each day, but like 830, 930, then they come back. Once I get to the drills, so once I get to Thursday, I'm done for the most part, like going out, like at night, unless I get a text that I just can't say no to. Or if it's like, hey, I'll meet you for breakfast. I'll get your coffee, you know, get coffee with you, that kind of thing. But when I get back at night, you know, Thursday through Sunday, it is, all right,

let me get through all my notes while all of it is fresh. The 70 players that I just watched for the last eight hours, let's get all that stuff down and share it with our die hearts. All right. Well, I would imagine that if you've made it this long, you've got to be a diehard because, I mean, the amount of information that you're going to get is, I believe, unprecedented on the draft sick of market. And we look forward, friend, of finding out everything you think about what you see over the next several days. And then we will be back on Tuesday at noon for the first live episode of the PHLY draft show with Fran Duffy.

Have a lot of fun. Good luck. Happy hunting. And I hope you see those swips hibble, my friend. Thanks, fine. Swip. I meant hips swivel. It might work either way.

Maybe it's a new thing. All right. So for Fran, I'm Bo Wolf. We thank you for watching the PHAWI Draft Show with Fran Duffy. We will talk to you on Tuesday. And as always, we love you.