PHLY Philadelphia Eagles Podcast - Makai Lemon, Eli Stowers Over/Unders: What To Expect From Eagles Rookie Class | PHLY Eagles Podcast

Episode Date: May 6, 2026

Makai Lemon and Eli Stowers have a wide range of outcomes with the Eagles in their rookie season, with Sean Mannion, Jalen Hurts, DeVonta Smith, and Dallas Goedert each playing major roles in the rookie’s roles. Bo Wulf and EJ Smith go through the last 10 years of players drafted in the spots of each of the NFL Draft picks Howie Roseman made last month to pick out high-range and low-range examples of what to expect. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

To the PHAY Eagles podcast live from the Xfinity Mobile Studio. We are presented by Ashley, and we are Bo Wolf and E.J. Smith here on an overcast. Tuesday afternoon, Eli Sowers have indeed brought May showers. Join together hand in hand, DJ, for a Wednesday episode of the P.H.O. Eagles podcast. How are you? I'm doing great. How long did it take you to come up with that? That was really good. That was some of your best work right there. Well, no, someone has it in the chat except they have made flowers instead of. Oh, okay. Well, shout out to the chat.

SRG, all right. Well, you know, SRG's best work is also would have to qualify for your best work. I mean, someone's got to come in and fix it. No, listen, it's good teamwork. But yeah, I'm doing well. I've been all over true media all morning. I am fired up for this show. I'm excited to give you some examples.

You know, like the real estate world, they talk about comps. We're going to go through some comps for some of these players. What do you know about the real estate world? I bought a house, so I know that much about the real estate world. And yeah, the comps are everything. And we're going to go through some historic examples, some players that I think compare favorably to some of the Eagles rookies. All right.

Let's do that. And by the way, keep Lindsay and your thoughts, everybody out there today. She had to deal with a particularly hairy mouse situation. Oh, yeah. So please give her your strength. from a distance as we don't all have a julia in our life to take care of those types of things for shout out julia that's right so they can see the show today ej is as you have gone through and found some now we are talking just rookie year impact comparisons correct not not the career of the players

the egos have drafted but true expectations for what we might see from these players in year one yeah exactly so i when i did the filters i filtered for the first 17 games of their career so so you could kind of standardize it. I didn't want to, you know, ding the players who got hurt for a few games in their rookie season too much. So, but I still, some of the stats that I will have will be from the rookie season because it will get into it. I was looking for very specific scenarios for some of these. And, you know, I want to warn you at the top. I spent a lot of time on Mackay Lemon and Eli Stowers. The rest of the guys, it's more about like games played and body type and, you know, kind of finding comparisons that are a little bit more vague. But I wanted to really drill down on what

we can expect from Mikai Lemon and Eli Stowers. All right. Well, let's do that. Let's start with the guy at the top, Mackay Lemon, and let's do it, E.J. Actually, you know what? Before we do it through the prism of the big picture, let's talk about how you can watch Fran

do Mackay Lemon and Eli Stowers and Mark Al Bell on the entire draft class, maybe some undrafted guys, maybe some Jonathan Granard. That's right. Another die-hard only event, Fran's draft film session, Tuesday, May 19th, so 13 days away, 6 to 8 p.m. at the studios of P.H.O.I.

I would say the happiness rate from people who have gone to these Fran film sessions in the past, the approval rating, as it were, near unanimous. So if you want to get to know these prospects, get to know what it's like when Fran watches a player and what he looks for, this is a fantastic opportunity. Don't miss it out. get to see like the programs that Fran uses for the film study and also even more impressively, the spreadsheets, you know, sometimes you get a glimpse at those bad boys. So yeah, it's always a great time watching Fran do some guys with the sickos in attendance. All right. Now let's head over to the big deal presented by our friends at Wawa as we narrow

in on Mackay Lemon, E.J. And what have you come up with? What have you found in going through the year one production of how, how, how, how, how, how. narrowly did you cut this sample? Did you do like guys drafted 11 through 30? What did what did you do here? Yeah, so I'm going to walk you through the process here. So I started with just first round receivers in the last 10 years looking at their first set the first 17 games of their career. And when I read you these numbers, you might be a little surprised and we can talk talk about why. The average was 103 targets, 63 catches, 832 yards and five touchdowns. That's the average rookie first oh that's over 17 games though so yeah 17 games i don't think you made i don't like that

you did that but that's okay i understand uh 17 games and it's a really high bar it's a 32 player sample and then you start to look at it and it's like okay there are some outliers here that are really driving up that average you know jimar chase justin jefferson cd lamb um so what i did from there's surprised it's even still that high but anyway go yeah no i mean it's it's it's lofty i mean It's also like if you, I mean, if you're drafting a receiver in the first round, a lot of times you're drafting them to be the main fixture in your offense, which is something we'll get into. So from there, I decided to take out the top 10 picks, the guys who are like,

can't miss. It's a reasonable thing to do. What's that? I think that's a reasonable thing to do. So I went 11 from 32 at that point. And then it goes, it goes down slightly. It goes 96 targets, 58 catches, 766 yards and four touchdowns. Still a high bar.

but I think that's a reasonable like I think the 17 games thing is maybe doing a lot of the heavy lifting here yeah guys usually do miss a handful of games or like two or three but for me that is like it's not the bar that you'd set from a kai lemon as a rookie but it's it's in the neighborhood you know it's on the nice end of town I think that's a higher range outcome um so from there I just really drilled down because I did I said I think the averages are probably a little bit too much uh especially the 17 game averages a little bit too lofty when we're talking about what to expect for Mikhail Lemon. So I started to look at specific profiles of players. And what I started to really look for are players who were coming into an offense that already had an established number one receiver. Okay. You know, because you expect Devante Smith to be a high target player for the Eagles next year,

someone that is going to be featured prominently. So, you know, it's not really fair to compare to McKay Lemon or, you know, compare this situation to, you know, Justin Jefferson. situation or some of the other guys who became that number one option the second they walked through the door. So I was looking for that. I was looking for like a high volume tight end as well. I wasn't married to that, but really that number two option was really important for me.

And then I was trying to find players that stylistically fit what Mackay Lemon brings to the table as well. And the big one, I've got two, I've got two for you that I think are really good comparisons here. Well, before you tell me that, I want to ask you, before you went through this exercise, just off the top of your head, what do you think, what would have constituted in your mind? This has been a good rookie season for Mikhail Lemon. Yeah, it's a good question.

It would not have been the average I read out. It would not have been 60 catches, nearly 800 yards. I would have probably said, I feel like 650. You'd be like, good job. Yeah, I would say north of 600, probably 50 catches, 50 catches, 600 yards. The touchdowns aren't as important. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I would say 50 catches for 600 yards.

which the first cop I have for you, I think this is a high range outcome. You know, this is something that I think if Mackay Lemon had this, we'd all be, we'd all say that was an encouraging rookie season. And it's Jackson Smith and Jigba from 2023. Yeah, Jackson Smith and Jigba as a player,

Mackay Lemon has been compared to in the past. They have very similar intangible quality, strong hands, an ability to find space in between zone coverages. You know, I think, again, that is a high range outcome for McKay Lemon, but in 2023 playing behind D.K. Metcalf in that Seahawks offense,

Jackson Smith and Jigba had 63 catches for 628 yards and four touchdowns. So I think that is, you know, a high range outcome for Mikhail Letman. That sounds good to me. I agree. And again, this is not, this is not he turns into Jackson Smith and Jigba, the best receiver in football. This is, you know, as a rookie, that's what he produces. And I think as you look at all of these guys, you know, there are several players who we may talk.

about who like their best season was as a rookie. A guy like Traylon Burks, for instance, who was like my downside comp. And obviously you make the AJ Brown connection. But another, even the player who I have is upside because players have a certain skill set, as long as they're getting opportunities, they're going to get catches. And as a first round rookie, you're going to get on the field, you're going to get targets, you're going to run a lot of routes, you're going to get the ball. Now, things may happen over the course of your career where,

other people outplay you and you're not you don't quite have that same scholarship but jackson's missing jigba is a good example of it going the other way obviously where he showed that he could be a functional part of an offense that didn't necessarily need him to step in right away and from there it only grew yeah yeah and the thing the thing that i like about this comp is that i think they win in a lot of the same ways you know what we talked about in terms of their play style so i like that one i've got one that's a little bit more of a I mean it's pretty similar but it's a little bit more of a high range outcome.

Do you want to give me yours first in case I take it off the board for you? I'll tell you what it was. To me, the high range outcome and this is another player who his best season came in that rookie year now there have been some other things going on with him. But you're thinking about somebody who's coming into

an offense where he's clearly going to be the number two receiver again paired with a high volume guy. And that's Jordan Addison. Oh, Minnesota Vikings, who as a rookie, I think was almost at 900 yards. And that was his best season. Let me pull it up again. Jordan Addison is working. Now, different type of player, obviously. A little bit more speed, much more time on the outside. But yeah, as a rookie, 70 catches for 911 yards. And it's decreased in the past two years since. But I feel like that is the upside case for for macaille lemon yeah yeah no that's a good one i didn't i did not

have jordan addison but i did have another player here that i think if if you're talking about high range outcomes i've got two that are actually higher than jackson smith and jigba um one that requires a little context but i had 2018 Calvin riddley actually um 92 targets that year but he was third on the team behind julio jones and mohammed sanu so to me okay it's like Like if the Eagles offense becomes an expansive passing attack, maybe not something we're totally expecting. But if they do, you know, have a volume pass game, maybe he does creep up into that 90 target range. And Calvin Ridley that year had 64 catches for 821 yards and 10 touchdowns somehow. I would probably argue that that was, he's another guy where that was probably one of his best seasons.

I know some people on the show and maybe have said he's a bust in the past based off of the wide receiver buckets. So, yeah, he was the one I pointed out as a count. I think that's a fine one, different type of player as well. These are all different type of players. Is there something that you would point to with Mackay Lemon that would be not based on just the bottom line production that to you would constitute this being a successful rookie season for him? It's a good question.

If the Eagles offense is like a top seven, top five offense in the NFL, and he's maybe not a high volume guy, maybe not a numbers guy, but someone who was important on third downs, important in high-level situations. Yeah. Yeah, and all of us. And like, you know, like, let's say, because it's funny, I was texting Fran about this, some of the wide receiver stats that I was just reading out.

And he mentioned like 2024 Devante numbers. And I can pull up Devante's stats here that season. But they're not like, they wouldn't jump out to you. You know, he had 68 catches for 833 yards and 8 touchdowns. It's a good season. But the player that we know Devante is, it's not necessarily. necessarily like, you know, eye popping. But, you know, if Mikey Lemon had like a 60% of that,

but the Eagles offense was really effective and he was a part of it, then, yeah, I probably would set the numbers aside and feel fine about him as a player, even if he doesn't have the numbers to really reinforce it. And also the arc of it matters, right? If it's a slow start, but he has a really good, you know, stretch run, that would obviously constitute success as well. So, yeah, okay. All right, who's your last one?

You got one more. Yeah, I got one more here. this isn't probably a best case scenario for the Eagles, but I picked out 2025, Emeka Agbuka. He was a guy who was drafted, not expected to be a number one option. He obviously was behind Chris Godwin and Mike Evans, but injuries pile up in the receiver room, and all of a sudden he had 127 targets, 63 catches, 938 yards during his rookie season. I mean, again, that would be a high-range outcome for Mackay Lemon in terms of production. But, you know, if Devante Smith missed his time, I do think he probably creeped.

closer to that triple-digit target rate depending on how much time that is that davanti misses okay that's a good one let's close the book on the big deal presented by wawa ej i'm curious as we were going to do the same exercise for eliz stowers but how much do you think of them as kind of a package deal and you know are you are between the two of them and and Devante you know how are you making up for the AJ Brown production right and I think if we were putting turkeys on it

yeah you would want you would want devante to sort of take like 20% of that production right like he ups his own input by about 20% that would be awesome how do you then replace AJ and also then the Devonte of at all. Like it would be okay. The Eagles have diversified their bets where they hope it's

McCoy Lemon. And if not him, then maybe it's Dantavian Wicks and maybe it's Hollywood Brown and maybe it's Eli Stowers. Maybe it's Dallas Goddard taking a bit of a leap. But between Lemon and Sowers, do you think that they are seen as like a package deal in Howie's mind? Or I kind of feel like, to answer my question, I kind of feel like in Howie's mind, Lemon is for this year and Stowers is a little bit more for the future. Yeah, I agree. When we go through the Eli Stowers comms, you'll see that there are some very productive tight ends that were not super productive in their first 17 games. You know, as rookies, it kind of takes them some time to really become what they will become. And for that reason, and because I just think Mackay Lemon's a cleaner fit into taking a big

chunk of that target share. You know, AJ had, you know, 158 targets in 2023 at 121 in 2025, a little bit less, obviously, in 24, he had 97. So, like, let's just round it off and call it 100 targets. I actually think Devante could take, like, 30 of those. You know, like, I actually think a little bit more than that 20%. I think he could get close to that 140, 150 number. I mean, honestly, north of that 150 number, possibly, depending on how much they want to feature him.

So I think he's going to take maybe, let's call it 35% of that 100. And then I think Mackay Lemon probably does take, like 35, 40%, maybe, I guess more, probably like 50 or 60% of that. And then from there, it's Dante and Wicks taking the John Dotson Targets Plus, you know, adding more. And then I think Eli Stowers probably has a smaller piece of that pie than maybe we might expect. I think it's going to take time for them to figure out how to use, how to utilize him in the right situations. And another thing that we'll get it to when we talk about Stowers is like he's got to be on the field to compile a lot of targets. And I'm not certain that that's going to be a thing for him in the first year of his career.

All right, EJ, we have Eagles news. And so what we are going to do now is we're going to take a break. We'll come back on the other side. And we will tell you about all the changes to the Eagles front office that have just been announced. Shout out, Ed. Most of our viewers know there are few people who love Ace Hardware more than me. My local Ace guy treats us so much like family. He's been willing to leave grill seasonings out after hours for me.

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and we have now the Eagles official announcement of their new front office titles and some additions in here as well. Now let's start the one that was reported just before the show, E.J. And that is the promotion of Adam Berry, brother of Brown's GM, Andrew Berry, to Assistant General Manager. Obviously, this is the opening at Assistant General Manager that was vacated by Alec Hallaby. Eagles had also previously put out there that Dom, Desandro, and John Ferrar, the other assistant GM, had had their contracts extended. What do you make of Adam Berry and his ascension here as the new, you know, from the outside looking in, the new smart guy in the office. Yeah, no, it's been a rapid ascension. He was a Goldman Sachs managing director in 2022 and has,

you know, he joined the Eagles, our, our good friend, Zach Berman, the guy who did the interview with David Baker in case you forgot, Bo. He did a really good story on Adam Berry's path toward the Eagles, how basically how he Rose and met him at a speaking event and, you know, texted Andrew Barry and said, I'd hire your brother right now. And, you know, he has joined the Eagle staff. He started as a director of football ops last the last two years he's been the VP of football ops and to me you can correct me if i if you think i'm saying this too strongly but i feel like the eagles the assistant GM title to me was i mean they implemented it in part i'm because of the fact that they were losing so many talented people because of the fact that teams would offer that title to

to their executives um obviously those people are really deserving of those jobs you know john Ferrari, you know, Alec Hallaby and now Adam Barry. But I also think there is just an element of retaining talent as long as you can by giving these titles to people. So for that reason, it didn't surprise me that he got this promotion and this title change. And yeah, I think it's a, it's an interesting one to keep an eye on in the next few years because I'm sure that he is someone who will get interest across the league for GM jobs. Yes, there was a time when the Eagles made a point of not giving out that assistant GM title. And then I think once they broke that seal, they've decided that it is for this purpose. So yeah, I mean, listen, I have only ever heard from people

in the building very good things about Adam Barry. So it certainly seems worthwhile. And it seems like a sharp guy. It seems like a personable guy too. Like, you know, the few interactions I've had with him definitely seems like, like, you know, someone who is going to have a lot of connections in the NFL over time. All right. I'm going to run you through the rest of football ops and then we'll get to scouting. Dan Ryan, who had been director of team travel and football logistics is now senior director of team operations. Okay. Good bump for, for D.R.

Uh, who has, he's, he's, he's, he's a guy who is in charge of travel, but also you, you always see Dan Ryan behind Vic when they show Vic on game days. That's a good note by you. That is a good note. I mean, the guy, it's a smart guy. He knows how to, you know, he knows how to get on camera. He's got like the Dom DeSandro trait. I mean, that's, it's good for the Eagles.

He's a good look. guy. Matt Leo goes from player development assistant to director of player engagement. That's a good, that's a good bump for Matt. There you go. You'll hear a lot from players about how important Matt Leo is to the behind the scenes player development stuff. Yes. He has a real hand in that. Grant Writer goes from football transactions coordinator to director of football administration. You got nothing for me there? I got nothing for you. I'm sorry. All right. Next up, the great Zach Drapkin goes from senior quantitative analyst to assistant director of personnel strategy. Hmm. So I do have something for you here. The Eagles,

I think they're looking for a quantitative analyst, which means that there's probably a ripple effect that created the opening. Well, I do feel like, I mean, listen, I'm just going off of the title here. but personnel strategy, that makes this feel this is more, this is more Bryce Johnson's lane. Yeah, that's a good point. But I don't, that's, that's just a guess. Oh, yeah. Drapkin, doing good work.

Isabel Pantle goes from, here we go, quantitative analyst to senior quantitative analyst. There you go. So that's the job. And then Marlon Sanders goes for, from video assistant to video manager. Shout out to Marlon. Yeah.

Now we get to scouting. Joe Douglas. You remember him? I do. He goes from senior personnel director slash advisor to the GM to senior vice president of player personnel. So I think for a while it was sort of Joe is like Joe's back in the building. He's helping us out on a bunch of things,

but there's nothing quite super formal. And now Joe is back in sort of full force, I think. Yep. Yeah, I think that's the correct reading. I mean, it makes sense. It's he obviously has a lot of respect in the building for his work and the player personnel department. So yeah, it makes sense.

But I am curious about how the structure will be because, you know, there are some, some people not included on the staff changes. Well, this is, this is where, this is where it's particularly interesting. Mm-hmm. Because if you were to look at the scouting, like, a chart on the Eagle. front office page at the moment before they've flipped this over. It's Charles Walls and Alan Walking as VP of player personnel and then Joe Douglas. And so as they send this out, it's Joe Douglas.

And Phil Bia has been promoted from director of player personnel to vice president of player personnel. And we'll get to Alan Walking in a second, but Charles Walls is not here. And so I am reading that as Charles Wallace has found a job somewhere else. Yeah, that would be my guess. I can't confirm that. I don't know for certain yet, but he was the vice president of player personnel before

for them to hire a senior vice president of player personnel. You do wonder why. And they've added another vice president of player personnel in Phil. Yeah. Who I've also only heard good things about. Yep. And then Alan Walking, who was vice president of player personnel now,

vice president of football operations and strategic initiatives. Yeah, we'll be curious to hear like what all, what that entails, but obviously Alan's been with the organization a while. You've had a good stories with Alan in the past. Well, just the one, but yes. Well, yeah, I mean, fair, but yeah, you've, you've done some good reporting with Alan in the past. I'll be curious to hear, you know, what, what the new title really. Yeah, that's a very, yeah, that's a very mysterious title. Strategic initiatives. It's like, I can't tell you what I do. I'd have to do it. There's a little bit of the Gerard Johnson to it, but yeah, certainly a promotion. Yeah.

Jeremy Gray goes from assistant director of player personnel to director of player personnel Lee D. Valerio goes from Southeast Area Scout to assistant director of pro scouting. So I assume that that means, you know, he's back off the road. Yeah, he's really climbing the ranks. He was an NFF scout for them a few years ago. I remember seeing him at some of, I think he was at the HBCU combine that I covered like four or five years ago. Oh, nice. So yeah, no, he has spent a good amount of time on the road and has climbed the ranks for sure.

And then the ripple effects of that. Preston Tiffany goes from the NFS scout to the Southeast Area Scout, and Terrence Braxton is now the NFS scout after having been just a pro scout. Yeah, Preston Tiffany is going to be an important name for Eagles fans to know. Similar to Phil Bahaia and honestly Lee DeVarlio de Valeria. But that's Southeast Area Scout. I mean, that is an important role. Preston Tiffany worked previously for LSU.

so he has good connections to that program and likely just good connections to that area. So I think that one makes a lot of sense. I remember Preston Tiffany was one of the new hires last year, if I'm correct. And I remember there was a lot of buzz around that because he did have such good connections to the LSU program. And then the new hires for the front office. Clara Montenegro DeBirk added as the player personnel and football operations coordinator and Samantha Harvey to video assistant. Fred Hale, your new assistant, strength and conditioning coach. And then in scouting, Caspian Svensson is the new pro scout. What a name. Got to find those, got to find those Swedes

who can help out this team. And then the interesting one, Mike McCagnan, now personnel executive. I believe Mike G put out a tweet about this, that he's going to be sort of working with scouts on the road and helping like young scouts on the road but the eagles now just collecting pelts and howie roseman displaying the heads of ex-jetz GMs in his organizational flow chart i had a different read on it than that my read was john idzick now in charge of the cafeteria this is um the jets gm thing this is kind of like howie roseman's like you know signing a first round pick that didn't work out somewhere that maybe he feels like okay like maybe that environment wasn't good for you but you still have a lot of value and we feel like we can help you reach that ceiling.

I think there's another read here, which is that how he grew up in Jets country. And maybe maybe feels like they should have known. They should have known that I should have been, I could have been their GM. And these are all the people they hired instead of me. I'm going to make them watch my feet. This is like Jeffrey Lurie, like wanting to like, you know,

become better than the Patriots because it's like, oh, you got bad blood. You got to, you got to show them what they missed out on. Yeah, exactly. I like that. And unfortunately, nobody can name the current Jets general manager, so we can't make the joke about what that guy's going to do in the Eagles facility in three years.

Can you actually not name him? I cannot name that guy right now off the top of my head. He's probably the one guy. Darren Mugie. Dary and Mugie. Mugie, yeah. Mugie, if you're nasty. Well, I don't think.

There's already making this all. I don't think any of these were huge. surprises but I mean I guess the the the player personnel side of things not necessarily a huge surprise but I'm curious to see what the ripple effects are but yeah I mean this is there's always a fun fun moment in the off season when we can look through all these title changes and try to read between the lines yes I would like to do some reporting on this and you know it's always good to good to find out like who are the people in the building who people in the building think don't get enough credit from

the outside. You know what I mean? Rising stars, as it were. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's a... We should also note Ben Aigelana, who was the Northeast area scout as it was already reported that he is leaving the organization. Okay. Yeah. I've seen him at many a temple pro day over the years. Yes. There you go. All right. Adam Berry. There's the big one. There it is. All right, let's take a break. We'll come back on the other side. We'll get into the Eli Sauer's comp discussion. We've got a super chat about UR. Bernard. and much more on the PHLY Eagles podcast. What if you could have reliable and intelligent Wi-Fi?

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Back on the English podcast, both. And E.J. Smith, tell me about your Eli Stowers comps. Okay. Can I, wait, can I give you my, I got a couple of Kai Levin ones that I just want to, We can rapid fire. Okay. Medium range outcome for Mackay Lemon. I had 2016 Will Fuller, 92 targets, 47 catches, 635 yards.

Low range. I think Trailing Berks is the low range. I don't think we had to spend too much time on it. 33 catches, 444 yards. So, you know, and that was with Robert Woods as the number one target there in Tennessee. So, yeah, I think, you know, this is a great graphic by Lindsay because it really does show like the varying ranges that you could have here with Calvin. with Calvin Ridley as kind of, I think probably like your best case scenario and then Jackson Smith and Jigba as like similarly best case scenario in the sense that you might want him to be like showing that Jackson Smith and Jigba did. So yeah, those are my McCoy Lemon ones.

For Eli Stowers, I was looking for day two tight ends in their first 17 games. I know you don't love 17 games. We're going to go 17 games over the last 10 seasons. and the average is lower than you're going to think it is, mostly because it's getting dragged down by all those, like, glorified six offensive linemen who just don't have a lot of production. Yeah, but those guys are drafted on day two. They're not just, that's, that's part of the outcome. Yeah. No, I'm just saying, like, that is, you're not going to look at, I'm not, you're not going to hear these numbers and go, this would be awesome if Eli Stowers does this in year one.

I'm guessing the average is like 230 yards. 273 yards, 25 catches on 38. targets. I wrote this one down just as a good like indicator. 17 of the 43 had at least 300 receiving yards in their first 17 games. It's probably fewer than you'd expect. You know, like production, it's not like these guys come right in and just produce. Now the this has been generally speaking, it has changed a little bit over the past couple seasons, but generally speaking, tight end is one of the like most developmental positions in the NFL in terms of how long it takes guys to get to who they are. Right, right. So the exception, I'm not even really using this as a high

range outcome because to me, like this is just the ultimate outlier. It's Harold Fanon. I mean, as like the main featured player in that Brown's offense, 107 targets, he had 72 catches for 731 yards. I do not think Eli Sowers will get anywhere close to that. No, but I think that's the the upside like theory if you like if you looked at Harold Harold Fanon's per snap numbers or his like or his

his per route numbers that feels right. I mean it's it's possible somehow that Eli Stowers becomes a number two target in the offense. I mean that's unlikely but it's possible but it's also this is a guy who is not bringing anything to the table as a blocker

and requires thought and planning about how he's going to be functional in the offense. I agree. It's just the Eagles offense has so many mouths to feed that it's hard to, it's hard to envision him getting that workload. But again, from an ability standpoint, I can see where you're coming from there. I think 2016 Hunter Henry is probably the actual. And again, these are not going to be like, you know, unbelievable numbers by any stretch

of the imagination. But he had 36 catches. for 478 yards in his rookie season. This was back in 2016, 53 targets, not a main featured member of the offense. That's what I was looking for. It was like guys who were like fourth or fifth in the target share, you know,

behind another tight end. And Hunter Henry was an example that I came up with. A couple other guys, Dallas Goddert, had 33 catches for 33 yards and four touchdowns playing behind, you know, Zach Ertz. And then Tucker Kraft, who is a player that comes up a lot with Eli Sowers because of the Sean Mannion connection,

you know, what Green Bay has been able to do with Tucker Kraft and how Eli Stowers might fit into that. Tucker Kraft as one of the few tight ends that the Packers were featuring, 31 catches, 355 yards, and two touchdowns. Honestly, if you told me that Eli Stowers got 40 targets and those were his numbers,

I think that's a pretty reasonable floor, not a floor, but a pretty reasonable output from a rookie who's not going to play as much as you probably expect. because of his blocking inability. I think that's all totally fine. Again, I don't think that Stowers is here to be a major factor in the 2026 passing game. Yeah, I agree. Now, what's interesting is that there are a couple of guys who I think are also like,

you might not sign up for this production, but you'd sign up for what the production informs as a trajectory for the player. Mike and Tickie in 2018 and Trey McBride. I have done as well. What's that? Gassicki is who I have done as well. Yeah.

I think McBride's the more exciting one, you know, because McBride's production, yeah, well, yeah, McBride's production, his rookie season was, it was okay. He had 29 catches, 265 yards on 39 targets, but he was eighth in targets on the team. You know, he was behind Hollywood Brown, DeAndre Hopkins, Zacherts.

I mean, it was a pass heavy offense. So he's still got, you know, 39 targets in that season. But I think that that is like a perfectly, you know, exciting and, you know, acceptable outcome for Eli Stowers. If he does end up getting about 30 catches, you know, maybe around 300 yards, I know that doesn't seem like eye-popping numbers. But in a rookie season where you don't expect him to play a ton, I think that that was, you know, that would be a favorable outcome for him in his rookie year.

And then Gassiki was 22 for 202 with zero touched. And then he's been more productive than that every other season of his career. But that's more of a also similarity player type. The thing I like about the Kisiki Comp is that I checked. He played 44% of the offensive snaps that season. And I think that Eli Stowers are going to be probably playing a similar amount. You know, you probably like to see him a little bit over 50%. But I would be surprised by that, I feel like.

If he's that, but if he's that low? If he's over 50% of the snaps, Yeah. No, I'm saying you'd like him to be on the field more. You know, I don't. That would really surprise me. Yeah, no, I think he probably, I think 44% is about right, you know? I mean, you think it's high?

I think that's high based on my expectations. I mean, how much did Grant Calcutera play percentage of the snaps last year? Let's see. Grant played 40. So, yeah, no, I think that 44%. I think Eli Stowers, if he plays fewer than 44% of the snaps and Fran is going to be taking a victory lap around the pH. I don't know that I agree with that.

I just think he's a, he's more of a, he's more of a specialty type player. Yeah. And that's why the numbers are low. He could be effective in 30% of the snaps. If Eli Sauer's only playing 30% of the snaps as rookie, I mean, I, I, I,

there are going to be 12 personnel packages that he's not even on the field for. Right. And that, I guess, but that is like, that validates all of the reservations we had about the pick in a way that's like, I think if we're talking like high range outcomes for this guy, he is going to play 45% of the snaps or 50% of the snaps.

That is like maybe eventually an ideal scenario for him. I agree with that. But I think 40, if he's, if he's in the 30s, like, I don't know. I guess you're just looking at him as a developmental player. I feel like I would put the over under at like 38 and a half percent, something like that. Yeah. I mean, if you take the under, that speaks more to like how you've. view the player. I think they have to try and get them on the field. They're going to have to work around.

The big thing is, is, you know, Goddard staying healthy. I think if Goddard stays healthy, I don't think Stowers plays more than 35% of the snaps. I would be shocked if Goddard stays healthy. I disagree. And if you are right, then, yeah, then we go right back to the conversation we've had from the beginning about like, it's hard for these guys to be on the field. And that's why you don't necessarily hand wave the like what they can't do. You know, the Howley-Rosman, what can they do versus what can't they do. If he can't play 35% of the staff, but it's also about,

but no, but I don't think that that would mean it was a bad pick. It's, his, his pick is more of a long-term projection. Yeah. It's less about what he does in year one. I agree with that,

but playing fewer snaps than Grant Calcutera did last year. Like, I don't know. I have a hard time. This time. Like, you know, I don't know. Is your boy Johnny Munts there.

If, if they're playing 12 personnel with Dallas Godin and Eli Stowers, they're not going to block very well. Yeah, I just again that that's where like you have to be able to work around it if you're going to draft a player like that because I mean, I don't think any of us expect him to take such strides as a blocker at you know in year two or year three that that's all of a sudden not going to be a liability like I don't know I'm not talking 70% or 60% but if you're taking the under at 35 like to me that would give me some like reservations about what is the long term vision for a player like this. I think they have to figure out ways to get him on the field. Okay I don't think that they I don't think that they need to make getting stowers on the field

a huge problem to solve for the 2026 Eagles Yeah I agree to a certain extent But if he's not being used like 30 30% of the snaps Is what you're saying like I don't know I'm not sure I could find a tight end That was taken on day two that played that little Like Tommy Trump is 48% of the snaps for for in his rookie season Like you know

There are examples of guys who are liability as blockers who still made it on the field Okay. It's certainly possible. I'm way off here. No, I don't think you're way off. I think that this is more reflective of the way that we look at Eli Stowers. And you might be right. You might be proven. You and Fran are both lower on him because he isn't going to be able to be on the field this whole time for as much as you'd expect. But I don't know, I'm trying to pull up the day two tight ends again to look at just like their playtime percentages. to me like 30% of the snaps is a rookie like that puts him way way lower than a lot of the day two guys

so yeah I don't know hold on let me let me see if I can find it here yeah I'm looking I'm just gonna look at production like I mean we're mostly looking at like darn out Washington's of the world and he probably plays more

it's just that his numbers are low true sample played 17% of the snaps Ben Sinit played 26 and a half percent of the snaps. Gerald Everett played 28 and a half percent of the snaps. Adam Shaheen played 30 percent of the snaps. Luke Scootmaker played 31 percent of the snaps. 32 for Brenton Strange. 38 for Terrence Ferguson. Elijah Arroyo to me is the right comp here. He played 39.5 percent of the snaps. He had injury stuff though. I mean, I was definitely part of it with him. He's coming into a ready-made offense on a Super Bowl contender.

I'm looking at, I see 40. for his receiving upside. What do you say? I see 40% for Eliza Royal. I see 39.5. So that's, oh, sorry, I said 35. Well, that I, 40%

I mean, we're talking like 5% of this percentage points here, but that to me is the difference. Like 40% would be, you know, around where I'd expect them, a little lower than I'd expect, but to talk about 30, like, yeah, that to me, that invalidates the vision that they have and that don't talk about it. It does not invalidate the vision. To me, it does, because it's,

like, you know, what, what can he do versus what can't he do? It's like, well, if you can't play more than a third of the snaps as your rookie, then you are really betting on him developing as a blocker long term. And I don't know if you're- Oh, I don't agree with that. I don't agree with that. Because part of it is he's, he is drafted to be Dallas Goddard's replacement. And so Dallas Goddard is still here. When Dallas-Gotter is gone next year, he can be on the field with a blocking caddy and be your, be your tight end and 11 personnel. And you just take that hit. That's fine. I don't think that his presumptuous snaps this year is reflective of his long-term value. Yeah, the Dallas got a replacement argument is a fair one.

I still think that they're going to try to get them on the field more than a third of the snaps. I mean, we are, we are splitting ridiculous hairs here. Well, no, the overrunner is 35. So, you know, I'm, I said 39 and a half. No, you said 35 because that's where I was like, you're bad. I said 38 and a half, actually, for what I set the over under that. If the over is 39, okay, the over is 39. and a half that's a good over under i will take the over and if and i say if he is under

i will be slightly underwhelmed by their ability to feature him in the offense in year one and yeah he can still be a dallas scattered successor if i thought you said 35 and to me it's like 30 that's kind of where i expected to be at 35 but i again i could definitely be way wrong here i don't think you'll be way wrong i mean mike kisicki at 44% of the snaps was what i was expecting. So I expect him to be in the 40s. If he's in the 30s, I think, you know, that's not, it's just not as encouraging a rookie season as you would probably, when we're talking about high range outcomes, it's not as encouraging a rookie season as you would have liked to see. All right. Time for us to take our last break on the PHLI Eagles podcast. Let's come back and do

some comps for the rest of the draft class. And that means that we get to save Lindsay's game for tomorrow. Ooh. Upgrade your home for less during Ashley's Memorial Day event. Right now, you can save up to 20% on beautifully crafted Ashley Furniture or take advantage of 60 months, no interest financing with no minimum purchase. If you're looking to sleep better, you can get free upgrades on select adjustable bases, plus king-size comfort for queen-sized pricing on select Ashley mattresses. These Memorial Day deals won't last, so don't wait. Shop in store or online at Ashley today.

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day event happening right now you can save up to 20% on beautifully crafted ashley furniture or you can take advantage of 60 months no interest financing with no minimum purchase if you're looking to sleep better you can get free upgrades on select adjustable bases and king size comfort for queen size pricing on ashley mattresses these memorial day deals won't last so don't wait shop in store or online at actually today all right back on p hos podcast we have we have a prepared statement to read from somebody who is not here. I mean,

it's not a prepared statement. This is an honest reaction from Fran. I just texted him. I wasn't sure if he was watching or not. I said over under 38.5% of the snaps played for Eli Stowers in his rookie year, Fran's response, woof.

And he said, my concern has always been that it's the under. So I feel like that, that, that, after reading that because I agree. The concern is that he's not going to be on the field that much. I'm taking the Eagles at their word that they have a vision for him and that he will be on the field.

If they are, if they can't play him in 35, 40, or 40, 40, they can't play on 40% of the snaps. If he can't play what Mike Gisicki played as a rookie, then yeah, I think that that does start to bring in some concerns about his long-term usage. If we're talking, if that's what happens in year two, then yes. I just, I think he is a player who deserves a little bit. bit of development time. If Dallas Goddard plays a full season, maybe you can use that as the excuse,

but still, it's like they got to find ways to get the kid on the field. I don't know. Okay. I'm not saying he's got to play 80%. All right, let's jump to O'R, because we have a very generous donation,

a super chat from Tizi Trays, who says, got to be honest, I am getting way to invested in O'R's measurable's story and potential. I need him to be, become the next Miles Garrett. I need him to become the Nigeria nightmare. I'm in too deep. Talk me off the ledge. The Nigerian nightmare is a fun nickname. Well, Krishna Coyer was originally

he's a Nigerian nightmare. Um, I'm not here to talk you out of it. I think he's a really fun player. Uh, I mean, let's not let's not put the next Miles Garrett on him. Oh, well, but still measurable wise. And you know what? This is like, uh, this is part of the, being a fan and the entertainment value of being an Eagles fan versus just maximizing wins and losses. It's so great for Eagles fans to have UR. Bernard to think about now, as opposed to any other seventh round pick.

I mean, Kishon James Newby picked a pick later. No offense to Kishon James Newby, but I don't think there's an Eagles fan. I would say that 2% of Eagles fans can name Kishon James Newby right now. Yeah. and 75% of them at least are very aware of Uar Bernard and this long road that he is embarking on. It's really cool. It is.

And I feel like he came to a perfect town, a perfect sports fandom for this experience because of not only because of the Jordan Milata, you know, experience and what Jordan Milata means to Eagles fans now after seeing his journey. But also just like there aren't many places, I feel. like that are as passionate about like a young developmental defensive tackle than you know then eagles fans so for that reason i do think he is in a perfect place um and ever during the year one expectations game i don't think that you should expect him to play a single game this year yeah i didn't i did not come up with a single high range low range outcome for uar bernard i mean he is one of one for a reason it's it's hard to you know point to a player i guess you know you could look through like really

trade C defensive lineman on day three but even that it's like I don't know it's a hard one to find out I wanted to circle back on the thing from yesterday when I said that I think that he is the safest bet to make the 53 man roster I think there's some pushback that people don't understand their rules here they're you know they get this exemption for him that's not exactly how it works they get an exemption to have him on the practice squad but if they want to keep him and not allow any other team in the league to poach him He has to be on the 53 man roster. So if UR shows anything in the preseason,

they are unlikely to try to sneak him onto the practice squad. This is what they did with Jordan Milana. They kept him on the 53 man roster. It's not unlike, it's a little bit different, but it's not like what they did with Cam Williams last year. They are investing in developing this player over the long haul, and that's going to mean most likely having him on the 53 man roster. Yeah, I agree.

We have the Jordan Milata example as a tangible example of them doing it. And, you know, the thing I like to sometimes, the analogy I like to use sometimes when I'm trying to figure or what I'm explaining, like, who makes the 53 and who they're willing to expose to practice squad. It's honestly a lot of like fact finding about who do, who do you think has a lot of buzz and interest around the NFL? You know, who was it? Oh, man, I can't believe their name is escaping me. There was an interior. It was Trevor Kagan. Remember Trevor.

Trevor Kagan made the 53 last year. and everyone was like skeptical as to why he didn't have two years ago he did last year he did not and then it was claimed by the cowboys okay gotcha who was the player then it wasn't kegan then there was a player last year that made the 53 and the idea the reporting was like it was because they thought he was going to get snatched up on waivers i can't remember who it was it feels like it was kegan but yeah anyway for that reason like sometimes guys make the 53 even though maybe it was And then he made the initial and then was cut right after. And then he was claimed by the Cowboys.

And it was like, okay, he had interest. So Eagles have a good handle on those types of things. And, yeah, or Bernard's going to be a player that teams are interested in. All right. Markell Bell, what do you have for expectations? Yeah. So this is where my comps are a lot more just like, yeah, who like is built similarly and was drafted around the same range.

So I think the best case scenario is Orlando Brown. but to me like Orlando Brown has the size, but he also has the power in a way that I just don't know if Markle Bell does. Markle Bell moves better, I would say. But in terms of like play strength, well, this is tough because the best case scenario for Markle Bell is different than the best case scenario for the Eagles with Markle Bell. Like yeah, the best case scenario for the Eagles with Markle Bell is the tackle stay healthy and they don't have to see him this year. Yes. But he has a great training camp. Yeah. I can spend the year getting strong. Yeah. The best case for him, is one of those guys gets hurt and he gets the job.

Right? Yeah, I would say so. Ryan O'Neill is a guy that I pointed to, who was the last pick of the second round and was thrust into a starting job early in his career and looked ready to go and became their starter for the long term. My downside comp for Markle Bell,

I wonder who you have. Mine is Matt Pert from Yukon, who was a similar, like, projection big guy a little bit less refined than markele bell and i think he got one start his rookie year and then he got a few starts the next year and he's been sort of a backup ever since yeah i didn't have a great low range comp so the one i have you probably still would take for markele bell which is la raven clark like you probably would like you probably would yeah um i had fred johnson as another like you know honestly that's not even mid range that's high range that's a high

If he's a swing tackle in the NFL for a long time, that's a good, good outcome. Yeah, I, like I warned you, my day three wins are a lot more. Well, because the downside for a day three guy is they just don't make the team. Right. Yeah, so it's hard to even find good comps for him. But yeah, Mark Elbelle, to me, like Fred Johnson probably is the realistic high range outcome, you know. But even Fred Johnson is a guy who kicked around the league for a bunch of years before finally

landing in the right place for him. Yeah, it's just, I mean, day two tackles, you know, Orlando Brown to me like he that'd be great yeah I just that's a big projection he would have to really really add a lot of play strength in the in the next few years could happen not the kind of player that is but yeah yeah all right what do you have for the day three guys just in terms of upside stuff um Cole Peyton was the other one that I did some work looking through like athletic quarterbacks the two that stood out to me or were tasum hill and Tyler huntley um I had Brett Hundley as well as just kind of like, you know, athletic guys who, you know, I've stuck around

the league and been like serviceable backups. And obviously Taysam Hills got that like, you know, utility factor. But I didn't want to lean too heavily into that, you know, like I just wanted to find some like athletic quarterbacks, um, that, you know, kind of made some sense as like, as a comp for him. How about Spencer Rattler? Yeah, it's a fun one. I had DTR has like my low range outcome too. I had to make sure to get a DTR, uh, comparison in there. I feel like, yeah, like there's, similar Cole Payton and Spencer Ratler their build is probably similar I probably think Cole Payton's a little more athletic yeah I would say so yeah no doubt about it we'll have a little we'll have a little uh Cole Payton stuff coming for you later in the week and had to talk to

his quarterbacks coach last night we're going to bring that interview later on good conversation I'll warn you I don't have much for the other guys Micah Morris or Cole Wisniewski I mean Cole Wazniewski, Reed Blankenship is the obvious one. Michael Morris, I didn't have like a good hand. I didn't have a good like, you know, list of interior offensive line guys there. I don't know if you did. Well, what's, what's interesting, quickly on Michael Morris,

I mean, I have John Runyon, a different kind of kind of player, but that's the best upside is a guy who, who I think, played like one significant game, but showed enough that he was, he then became a start of the next season. The interesting thing about looking at Cole Wisniewski and Kichon James Newby, is there are like safety is a position where you can find players in the seventh round who contribute quickly.

Cam Curl, now Jalen Mills, but he turned out to be a corner. Jayron Curse. There's a there's a handful of those guys who turn out to be not only good players eventually but but also like impact players right away. On the edge. I mean,

the opposite. You do not find it. There is, in the last 10 years, EJ, there are only two players who were drafted in the seventh round who have at least two sacks as a rookie, and only one of them more than two. And that's Jonathan Cooper who had two and a half.

So there's not a single guy who had three sacks as a rookie of all the seventh rounders drafted in, in the seventh round. Let me tell you a little bit more, E.J. in? I mean, you know, it's like you want to be James Smith Williams, who was in the league for four years and had half a sack as a rookie. Like, that's a pretty good outcome. Yeah, I was going to say, are there any guys who are like, yeah, there aren't, and there aren't even a lot of guys who then turned out to be much better than that.

Yeah, that was my question. Jonathan Cooper is the best one. And it's a, I mean, listen, you're talking about the last pick of the seventh round. They're going to take a guy based on their grade. But I'm, it, it, I'm surprised that they went back. to the Antoine Powell Rylund bucket when this position in particular has had such little historical success. Yeah.

No, Antoine Powell Island gave me some like PTSD from last year. And like everybody was like, oh, like he's intriguing. He looks good out there. It's like, I don't know. I never saw it. Yeah. No, I mean, it makes sense that you wouldn't have seventh round guys who stick at that position. It's such a traits dependent position.

But yeah, it is surprising that there's not. like a single leg yeah like he developed into like a serviceable player but yeah i think that's why it makes sense for the eagles to drag to like lean on the traits with uh you know with uar bernard a defensive tackle and then joshua weiru as an undrafted guy uh on the edge yeah and uh even in the sample that goes back further never an elite edge player coming from the seventh round only only a couple undrafted guys yeah and gregg hardy in the sixth super chat from chase at in plain view who has more passing yards in 2026 jalen hertz or malik willis i would take jalen hurts i don't know what that miami offense is going to look like yeah i think it's a better offense i mean they got a good they got a

couple good ones you know on draft but i don't know if those guys are going to be making day one impact so i take jalen hurts i think so too yeah especially now that malick willis has been robbed of sean manion yeah i mean the qb whisperer where did you where did you come down on frank smith as an oc i can't remember if you were i have never been in the same room as the guy how dare you where did you what was your opinion of frank smith as an oc when we talked about um uh underwhelmed but but i would like to talk to him i think was my opinion yeah yeah he's not there anymore i don't know why bobby sloic is there oc i have my apologies oc carous and kevin petulow yeah maybe that's why CDP asked. He was curious about Petulow's

influence on that. Yeah. There you go. All right. Good stuff, E.J. Thanks for all the work on this one. Oh, no. This was fun. You know, got the, I pulled out the true media filters. You know, listen, I will, I'm probably the fourth best true media filter that

works for the All City, or the PHY network, not the All City Network. I would drop down the rankings there. I would put Danis. Dane is? There's nobody's third. 2A, 2B, you and Fran. I'm not, that is, I'm not ranking that.

I refuse to rank that. And then I, Fran, I actually, I am better than Fran at this because Friend has his own proprietary stuff. Yeah, but Fran's Fran, man. So I'm not ranking it. I'm not saying, because I think you guys are probably. Fran's going up as, he's got his own data.

You guys are both 99th percentile, true media filters. Not true. I'm like 75th. I'm getting there. You are not. 40th. I mean in the in the in the world population, maybe not in the true media population. Give me like 50th at least. Yeah, I would give you that. Yeah, more than Eli Stowers and snaps as a rookie.

I agree. I would I would put your percentage of true media work of people who have access to true media as higher than Eli Stowers percentage of snaps this year. I appreciate that, you know, but listen, it helped us do the show today. So I'm, I'm taking taking the win. I got some spreadsheets cooking up. I know you were really pretentious about my spreadsheet yesterday. You were like, I was pretentious about it. I did not come over and say, that's not a good spreadsheet, but you were like, oh, check out this great spreadsheet that I put together. And you looked at me like, it was very basic. You were giving me that face. Like, you think that's good. I still think it's good. I've done. You didn't even freeze the columns so that you could keep the same person. No, I did. That's the thing.

is that I did. I froze the column so that when I scrolled, I could still see this is for those who don't know. I have a big spreadsheet for all my grades. You know, Professor Smith has got to come in, come in and meet this deadline for all the grades. And it's color coded. I got the frozen column where you scroll, you see all the names, but you can see the assignments still. It's, it's, you know, medium level stuff. I got cooking there. And I show it to bow and he looks at me like. Well, you're really oversold it. I feel like that was a salesmanship issue. No, for me, that isn't, like, me that is a big sale like to me that's that's a that's real personal growth all right good for you you hit your 30s and all of a sudden you start learning how to do spreadsheets I'm proud of myself

all right good stuff on the p.chle why goes podcast today let us know what mccal lemon cop you like best for the rookie season and if you have a a humane way to dispatch with perished mice for lindsay and very quickly I would like to apologize for the coat that's stuck in the closet behind me that people could see on the ad reads. Fran told me you're only allowed to read this if you fix the jacket hanging from behind the closet over your right shoulder. You know, listen, we're busy in this house. We got to get the coats out. It's cold today. It happens.

All right. Thanks for watching listening today. We will talk to you tomorrow 2 o'clock. The Duffman joins us in studio. Thank you, Lindsay. and as always, we love you.