PHLY Philadelphia Eagles Podcast - PHLY Eagles Podcast | Clayton Kershaw, the Burden of Greatness and how it connects to the Philadelphia Eagles

Episode Date: May 17, 2024

Andy McCullough has several claims to fame, including the release of his new book, “The Last of His Kind: Clayton Kershaw and the Burden of Greatness.” Foremost among those accomplishments, though, is the time he spent at Syracuse University with a young Zach Berman. McCullough, the local boy made good, joins Zach and Bo Wulf to discuss his new book, the things he learned about Kershaw as someone who had followed him closely for so long, his Eagles fandom, his memories of young Zach and more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

To the P. H.O.I. Eagles podcast on a Friday afternoon. 3.30, Bo Wolf, Zach Berman and a fun show today. The schedule has been released. We've talked about it for two episodes. Let's turn the page a little bit. Have some fun and talk to one of Zach's old friends from college, old coworkers, colleagues at the Star Ledger, Andy McCullough, the great baseball scribe, who has a new book out on Clayton Kershaw and The Burden of Greatness. So we're going to talk to him. about that, his connections to the Eagles, his fandom there. But Zach, what's going on in your neck of the woods today? Doing well. Excited for the show, as always, but especially because we have Andy here. We will get into it, but I have the book right here digging into it. There's some good filly nuggets in it. And just pump to hear, Andy, because I think there's actually a lot that will kind

transcend baseball and applies to some of the players we cover. And also, Andy is like many people. people, why I think most people who watch the show, he grew up a big Eagles fan. And so we'll have fun talking Eagles memories with him. But no, it's as far as what's going on with Eagles right now, next week, OTAs. So we will have actual on the field football to discuss next week. Looking forward to that. There's, there's some changes in the front office. And, you know, Jake Rosenberg, we already knew he announced his departure. Brad Obie, who, was a scout for the Eagles. He's going to Carolina, according to Inside the League.

He was the Eagle Southwest Scout and going to be the Midwest Scout in Carolina. So that Southwest means that he would have been the first one with eyes on Jelix Hunt. Correct. Work. And yeah, so this is kind of a, this is a quieter time. I see it in the comments. People are referencing this. The comment section on YouTube yesterday was not too kind to me. I took it the heart. We don't need to devote more attention to this. I wasn't going to bring it up. Yeah. I don't think I was making the argument that I wanted to make. I take full responsibility there. We're kind of discussing two separate things. Sometimes I convey what I think better in writing than speaking, which is a problem because we do a show five days a week. So I need to, I need to do it well

speaking. But what I was trying to convey was simply that way that that I wasn't talking about the volume of streaming networks. I was talking about going to streaming as it is. And I was saying that's that's where the industry is turning. That was the point I was trying to make. And I think we were. Yeah, but nobody's arguing against having games available on streaming. No, literally there's a lot of people arguing that saying that it should just be available on on cable and that it's it's hard to find this. And a matter of fact, so I was doing my research, there's actually more people who consume content via streaming networks

than via over-the-air cable. So if it was only on, say, NFL network would actually be limiting the amount of people who could see it relative to being available via streaming networks. We don't need to get into that, nor do we need to get into the data that shows the proliferation of Amazon. If we're not going to get into it, don't get into it. But if we're not to get into it, don't get into it. So, yeah. So, but I, I do want to apologize to the audience because I was not, I was not my best self in conveying what I was trying to convey. And I should have been more cogent. And I can certainly take the L as my daughter says, when it's appropriate. And I will take the L on this one.

Okay. Before we get to Andy, just, just set the stage for OTAs next week, Zach. We'll have time to talk about it, obviously. We expect. maybe Wednesday to get to see what's going on in practice. But what would you say is like, you know, one, two, three, the items that you were most interested to see on the field? Yeah, so we're not going to see much schematic stuff. It's going to be more seven on seven type work. You obviously want to get your eyes on Sequin. You want to see Sequin out there playing for the Eagles up close in practice, right?

That's one thing there. Quignon Mitchell, I want to see Quiguanian. Mitchell because in these camps, you can't judge line play. But what you can get an early sense on is like movement ability from the skill guys. So Quignon Mitchell and Cooper DeGene, I would say. And then I'm curious how some of the players recovering from injuries might look. I'm curious to see the linebackers in space a bit, in particular, Nicobo Dean, Devin White. I would like to see if Nogobi Dean's out there.

He's coming back from the injury. Yeah, so that's some of the early parts of it. Looking forward to catching up with Nick Siriani. I would like to see what's a lie and what's the truth. That's a reference to a video that Eagles put out that is fine content. Who's that guy hosting that thing, by the way? I don't know, but, man, Halley, come on.

You can't say you're going to name 15 stadiums. He did an awful job. Yeah, get caught. up at five. You know, well, that was the thing. He's, is, I think that he thought it would look cooler to just not even try once he realized he wasn't going to get it. But like, I mean, he did such a bad job. I mean, he's not even getting to Lambe Field. Like, come on. He was at Joe Robbie Stadium at number five. Right. Come on me. The, look, you know, I give him the credit. He called him out right away. How he goes to be in. Nick's, Nick saying no way. Yeah, when you're on the clock, there can be some anxiety, some stage fright. I get that, right? But just go by division, right? You can knock at it. You can knock out. Yeah, it was so weird the way, yeah.

I mean, it's not so obvious going through the divisions in your head. Exactly. You say, MetLife, Lincoln Financial Field, FedEx Field, AT&T Stadium, Lambot Field, Ford Field. You know, you just go on down the list, right? So a U.S. Bank Stadium, you go on down the list. So I was a little, I was like, come on, Howie, you're on the clock determining the future of your franchise, you can name 15 stadiums. That's not, that's certainly not cumbersome. I agree. Yeah. As to the OTAs, I was, I'm, I'm surprised that you sort of glossed over

Cooper DeGine because I think that's maybe the, the like where people line up thing that I'm most interested in is where, where are they putting Cooper DeGine, you know, when, when we're watching. Is it on the outside? Is it on, is it on the inside? We'll see. Good point. Yeah. And whether, He sees any work of safety, which I don't anticipate, but certainly inside, outside will be worth paying attention to. All right. Before we keep going, Zach, and bring in Andy McCullough, let's talk about our friends at Ollipop. Because you know what you need? As you head into the weekend, Zach, is a little something to help your gut health. And what Oli Pop is going to bring to you is exactly that. Oli Pop is a new kind of soda, the world's first functional soda with a classic soda.

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Must be 21 or older. Please gamble responsibly. If you were someone you know has a gambling problem and wants help, call 1-800 gambler. All right. Let's bring him in from the bench here. Andy McCullough from, I believe it's pronounced the athletic. But Andy, thanks for joining us. Yo, thank you guys for having me, man.

Let me tell you something. I could use some of that kombucha soda when I was watching the birds in the second half of last year, man. It was, hey, so they hired Kellyn Moore. This guy got fired by the Chargers and he's going to fix Jayland. Okay. Hey, guys, thank you for having me. This is very nice.

Thank you for coming. Great, great accent, author of, let me pull up the exact title here. There it is. The Last of His Kind. Yeah, wow. Clayton Kershaw and The Burden of Greatness and also co-author of such greats as Metz Jason Bay feels better while Ronnie Paulino is clear to work out. That's with Zach Berman and Andy McCullough sharing a bottle. Wow, wow.

I needed ZB to write the other half of that notebook for sure. I want to know who was writing the lead on that bad boy. I had no recollection whatsoever. I hope Andy was because actually Andy had a, he's, I can tell you like hundreds of his leads over the years. That's not an exaggeration that I like. But he had a story in, in college about leads. It was a story about a professor, Charlotte Rimes. And it was the lead was about leads.

And it was incredible, as most of Andy's, as all of Andy's work is, in particular of this book here. And I will say, because we're. We're talking to Andy about a lot of things today, but ostensibly we, you know, we do want to promote the book. Yeah, we got to plug the book. Yes, absolutely. The last of his kind. Well, here, I'll let you plug it. And then I'll add in some more.

My agent has told me that people in Philadelphia do not read books. Uh-oh. That is bad news for Zach. I have pitched to him a Philadelphia-related story. There's a very prominent Philadelphia athlete who could be in theoretically in another project. And I was told that Philadelphians do. not read. So prove him wrong and buy this book, which has nothing to do with Philadelphia. No, so I wrote a biography of Clayton Kirshaw.

Is he saying Philadelphia's doing Philadelphia's do not read or cannot read? No, he's saying they can. They just choose not to, which is even more frustrating. You know, it's the cradle of democracy. Yeah. So I wrote this, it's a biography of Clayton Kirshaw. I, you know, I've been trying to find a project, I think, that was worth, you know, investing a couple years of my time. I covered the Dodgers for several years for the Los Angeles Times. And so I had a relationship with Kersoff from that. And then when I moved to the Athletics, still wrote about the Dodgers a lot.

And so I approached him in 2022 to see if you would be up for it. And he agreed to, you know, participate and be interviewed for it. And it ended up, you know, talking fairly extensively. And so, yeah, I mean, I think, you know, it's a book about him, but it's also a book about what's happened to baseball over the last 20 years. And I think, you know, in a lot of ways, the central question of the book as it pertains to Kershaw is like how to remain great without, you know, losing sight of who you are, how to like change without, you know, giving the way the parts of yourself that allow you to become great in the first place. And so, yeah, I don't know. It's a, I'm happy with it.

I'm glad that it's out into the world and people seem to be reading it. So, yeah. I want to get into a lot of what you learned and, you know, what maybe what you learned that you didn't know after, you know, still having. and covered him for so long. But I want to start with some of like the inside baseball of the book writing process because I know that this is front of mind or back of mind for Zach. How long did the process overall take, you know, from start to finish? Yeah, I mean, from start to like, you know, starting to talk about doing a proposal like early May of 2022 to and it came out in, you know, May 7th last week, so almost two full years. But I would say the bulk of the work was done in

earnest from like June of 2022 to the the I had to I it's a 23 chapter book and I had to file 21 of those chapters by the end of September. So you know a little bit more than like 15 months or so. So it's kind of it was a bit of a sprint but I ended up enjoying the process a lot. And yeah, I mean kind of just doing it a little bit, a little chunk at a time in the mornings mostly last summer. It was a it was on. Best part of the process, worst part of the process? I mean, I think the best part of the process, just from like a kind of selfish, like writerly aspect was that I would get up early in the morning and I would have a cat that wakes me up at like three or four in the morning every day. And so the cat would wake me up and I would like make myself breakfast and, you know, write like 500 words

every day. Basically, that was kind of my goal. And after that, I knew that no matter what happened, that day. I'd like felt good about the fact that I had like hit the goal. And so it made it easier to just like feel like I was, you know, being a productive human. I guess like the worst part of the, I don't know, I'm not great at like selling myself or like the marketing aspect, although I've been told I'm doing a lot better than expected in terms of how I haven't like snapped on any radio interviews or things like that. So that's been good. I don't know. I mean, you know, Zach knows this. driving might be your answer. Oh, I got on Otter, man.

Otter's great. It's just, it's hard when, like, you put a lot of time and effort into a book. And then it kind of becomes all about, like, sales in some ways. But that's just the modern industry. And so please buy the book so I can feel better about those numbers, which I'm, you know, whatever. But yeah, it's, it's, I would say in general, like, I really enjoyed the process a lot more than I expected. I really found that I like, I liked it a lot. I know a lot of people talk about it.

Writing books is being kind of torture, but this was really fun for me. I will promote Andy then. I am happy to do this. This is incredible. Like this is awesome. And I, I'm so happy for Andy. I'll tell the audience that and I mean that earnestly. Like this is the, I've known Andy for 20 years now longer than that.

but no 18 years. Yeah, 18, yeah. 18 years. And it's not exaggeration. This is the kind of thing we like dreamed about in the ground when when we were in college and he's earned it all. Right. And like this isn't this isn't just a book. Like this is this is incredible.

Like I'll give you an example. The day it came out, I wanted to see it in a bookstore. Like I wanted to not just get it in my mailbox. Like I wanted to see it in the bookstore and I go to the barn. Barnes & Noble and Plymouth meeting. And, and I, I ask them, like, I need the last of his kind by Andy McCall. And, and this is the type of book that, like, they're carrying in Philadelphia, right? This is a national type book.

Andy's saying, he's saying Casway, my agent. Like, he's big time. Like, this is, like, he's, yeah. This is one of the great players in baseball history, and this is the definitive biography of it. And I think it was put well by Ian O'Connor, who's incredible in writing books as it is, right? In terms of biographies, especially, Derek Jeter. Yeah. That was the – yeah, Ian's book on Jeter is kind of the model for this.

It's like Ian presented as the definitive work on Jeter's time as the Yankee, and I kind of wanted to do that with Kershaw, like the definitive work on his time as the Dodgers. So anyway, sorry, I'm interrupting. And so Ian knows. And Ian says – so this is from the blurb in the back. Kerrshall is to Sandy Kofax, what McCullough is, no, as worthy heirs go, Kirshall is to Sandy Kofax, what McCullough is to Roger Kahn. Wow.

Like, you hear that. It's a bit much. That's not a bit much. That is earned. That is deserved. And I am. It's very kind of him to say that. I'm so happy for Andy.

And Andy's also, he's underselling the fact that this is nothing to Philadelphia. This book is a lot to do with Philadelphia. A matter of fact. any Phillies, anyone of our generation who reads this can instantly associate with Clayton Kershaw because there's a nugget in this book that Clayton Kershaw wants his son to play baseball like Chase Utley. That's who he wants to play like. And I imagine so many people who grew up around the time we did, it might be you want to play like Jimmy Rollins or pitch like Cole Hamels. But Chase Utley is obviously a franchise icon here.

and Kershaw wants him to play like Chase Utley. There's a interesting part of this book, actually, when Kershaw's first coming up, and he's playing against the Phillies in the playoffs. So he's already up at that point, but he's not Clayton Kershaw yet. And that's pretty clear when the Phillies face him. And like that's chronicled really well there, actually.

He, Andy had what Joe Torrey was doing when, like, he was talking about, you know, Clayton Kirshall in that game five game when Jonathan Broxton were the pitch that was sent out of the park. Anyways, I mean, I don't want to say like I'm proud of Andy. That sounds weird to say like I'm very kind of you. I don't think that sounds weird. I'm proud of your friend.

You're proud of your friend? Yeah, yeah. Because I'm the one looking up to Andy, right? That's what I mean. That's just a genetic thing. That's true too. But what I was so proud. when I saw this because, you know, Frank DeFord, he, he, a great sports writer for those who

who don't know. He said, like, there's no better time than when you're first starting, right? And we were starting together, Andy and I, like, we were at, Downey Orange together, we're at the start ledger together. And, like, this is, this is the kind of thing we dreamed about. That's not an exaggeration. So, this is amazing. And I am so happy, and it deserves, Andy deserves all all the nice words being said about him because he's earned it all. Thank you. It's very kind of you. Randy Wolf is in the book as well. Of course. There's a lot of Randy Wolf. A lot of Randy Wolf. I think there's a lot of ways to go here because I kind of want to delve into your guys' relationship, but let's keep the focus on Clayton Kershaw first. Now, if you're like on the fence about like,

should I buy this book, go read the, go read the excerpt on the athletic because it's fantastic. And it it dives into like Clayton Kershaw's five-day loop, this mechanic where he's, you know, he's a bubbly guy and a great teammate on days one through four, but come the day that he's going to be on the mound, like stay the hell away and the burden of greatness, which is, which is in the title. And I think for Eagles fans, if we can connect this, there is, like we think about Jason Kelsey, right, who had been wrestling with when to retire for so long and finally decided to do that.

And Zach and I have talked on the show about like one of the things that, you know, impresses us about Kelsey is every single person he meets in Philadelphia. Like it is the highlight of their day, if not longer. And like the burden of being Jason Kelsey. Obviously, it's somewhat similar for Clayton Kershaw. What did you learn from getting to talk to him about that specific burden? Like just everyday life and in the clubhouse to his teammates and walking around with Dodgers fans he runs across just being Clayton Kershaw?

Yeah. I mean, I think it's less about fame in some ways, but I think it's more just about the exacting standards that he holds for himself. And there are a lot of athletes who rely upon, like, external sort of things. You know, Michael Jordan is, like, famous for kind of making stuff up to be mad about or misremembering slights to sort of, you know. And, like, Kershaw's not really like that. It's all basically just like this internal combustion engine of anxiety that causes him. him to feel like he has to do things in a certain, you know, order at a certain time, in a certain way, time after time after time, in order to take the mound every fifth day

and be able to stare down the person in the batters box and feel like I have worked harder than you. I am more prepared than you and I am going to win because of it. And that is, you know, it's not necessarily like a unique approach, but I think what is unique to him is just how dogmatic he is about it, how unwilling he is to deviate from the schedule. And one of the things I wanted to sort of, you know, talk to him about was just like, so how do you feel like having done this for so long and like felt that sort of internal stress? And one of the things he talked about that I thought was really fascinating is like I asked him,

so it's, you know, it's in that, it's in that excerpt, but it's kind of the idea of like, we got to talking about what he likes about his job and what he doesn't like about his job. And I feel like a lot of athletes, when they get to a stage where their body starts to break down, the thing they love is the competition, right? They love the games. They love being able to do, you know, what it is they do. And he talked about how much he loved the four days in between starting, like the work and the preparation and the lifting and all of that stuff that he really, really enjoyed. But the fifth day was just like, he's like, well, my arm is really going to hurt tonight. And my back is really going to hurt tonight.

And I'm going to be super stressed all day long. He's like, yeah, that kind of sucks, which I just thought was like a really sort of honest insight into what it means to be to like hold yourself to that sort of standard day after day for, you know, 15 years. And I think there's it applies, you know, it manifests in different ways to like elite athletes. But I think it's just kind of a fascinating. Very rarely I feel like do we get a window into what it is like to be that sort of person. It's not a thing that any of us can really relate to in any sort of way. And so one of the things I'm glad about that he was willing to be so open for this is I think at the very least, you know, you can pick up this book and understand like for, you know, first ballot all famer like, you know, I believe he's the best pitcher of this generation. But, you know, an elite elite athlete of the 21st century, what it was like to basically be that sort of person, if that makes sense.

Yeah, I would follow up with that. And that I think is where it applies to the football. And it applies to the Eagles. Bo mentioned Jason Kelsey. And it's something we talked about. Bo had a great piece on the athletic in 2020, January 2020, where he had been following Jason Kelsey around that season. Yeah, I remember that one.

Yeah, every week. Sol the injuries, yeah. Yeah, the physical toll on the body. And beyond like the physical nature of football, I think that shows like what, what you're willing to do to do what he does. And then, you know, I remember conversations I had

with Malcolm Jenkins about things he would do in terms of preparing four games. Like you said, those days between those days between starts, what Malcolm's life was like Monday to Saturday in the football season. And, you know,

Bo and I have been fortunate to be around, perhaps even at the at the Kershall level, but certainly like potential hallfamers, future hall. Whether it's Kelsey's Hall of. Kelsey. Yeah, Kelsey.

You know, Jason Peters. I didn't get to know Jason Peters as well, but we did a lot of work on Jason Peters. Chris Wallace. No, like AJ Brown now. I mean, J. 1 Hertz in terms of like level of fame and like that, that type of trajectory. And you see the price you have to pay. That's why I think the title's great, right?

The burden of greatness because. sometimes takes on a negative connotation, but I think it can be applicable in terms of like you're you're carrying that every every day, you know, AJ Brown spoke about this a few weeks ago. Like he has a choice every day about what he's going to do to try to be better. And did you so, this is a roundabout speaking, but I'm also asking a question here. You were around great players, great players with the Dodgers, with the Yankees, with the Mets. DeLon Carter, it's there. I forget about the Royals.

Long Carter, yeah. Come on. Yeah. Jake Fraley. Was Clayton Kershaw like noticeably different? Or was he just in that tier? Yeah, no, it's different. I mean, it's the level of intensity is different.

And that's not to like slight other players, I think that everyone in the big leagues is working hard, you know, in the same way that I assume everyone in the NFL was working hard. Although it would be funny if like half the guys in the NFL weren't trying. So that could be possible. I think there's some guys who weren't trying sometimes. Yeah. There's some guys who make business decisions. I, yeah, I mean, I think that it's, it's not so much what he's doing is different. It's just the consistency. It's just the, the, like, if you go into Dodger Stadium at 2 p.m. on a, you know, Tuesday afternoon. And he's not pitching that night. I guarantee he will be out. in the outfield running every day he'll be doing his sprints he'll be doing his agility drills you know he'll have his goofy headband on with his cut off sleeves and he'll be doing his stuff and it's just every single day and I would go to the ballpark and get there and set up my laptop I'm sitting there and sometimes you just wonder like why are you like this you know like you just threw a shutout last night or like your back is hurt you're like supposed to be on the

injured list you know why are you you know subjecting yourself to this and that's kind of one of the things I wanted to try and get into. But like it's the sort of thing that he has a, from a young age, he determined that he understood what the things were that made him great. And he held onto that very, very tightly and was kind of not unwilling, but very, very reticent to change from that unless he had to sort of be, it had to be really demonstrated to him that he needed to change. And I feel like that is something that, of.

elite athletes. I mean, Jalen Hurst strikes me as a person like that who like has a very like supreme sense of what makes him, you know, a great quarterback or at least did. I'm a little concerned. But, you know, but like he has like he has that like that bedrock of confidence it seemed like. And in order to move off that, it requires a lot. And I think that one of the challenges that at least a lot of baseball players go through is when they get to the majors and things start to go wrong, they get overloaded with information and they get told, oh, maybe, you know, do this with your swing or if you try throwing this pitch or whatever. And some players listen to much and some players, you know, don't listen at all. And the key is just like finding that sweet spot, you know,

and Kirshaw is someone who has always sort of been able to be in that sweet spot, I guess. So I'll ask you the question I teased a little bit earlier, you know, having covered Kershaw for as long as you did before the bookwriting process, what did you learn throughout the process that, you know, maybe surprised you or you didn't know or didn't expect um there was a I mean there's just a lot of stuff that I didn't you know a lot of stories I heard you know like you flipped this car in the minors which was a thing no one knew about um his first dance at his wedding was to uh DJ's fallen at love again by usher which I didn't expect would be weird if you did although I to be fair I don't want to compare you guys I feel like Zach would have found it way that's a that's very

much like a third question from Zach and me and a guy. He played the Super Bowl usher Yeah. That's good. I think, I mean, this is, I guess this isn't like a, one of the things that really kind of shaped the way the book ended up being was that he just started talking about how I was under the impression that the losses in the postseason he had had earlier in his career were more devastating than the later ones like in 2021 and 2022. And he was sort of saying it was the opposite that the more recent ones were more painful

because he felt like he was running out of time, which is. Not necessarily a unique point, but it just wasn't something I was expecting going in. And so it allowed me to sort of reshape the book to make it a bit more about like athletic mortality than anything else. Were you surprised that he cooperated as much as he did? To an extent, yeah. I mean, he was very like, he was pretty easy to deal with, you know, like, I mean, we've known each other for a long time and we have a good, you know, working relationship. But he was very, he and his wife Ellen were extremely generous with their time. You know, and open to subjects that were often fairly painful for them to talk about, you know, both personally and professionally.

And so I guess like in looking back, I'm a bit surprised at it. But kind of once we got into it, it became very clear that like he understood that this was without trying to sound too grandiose. Like this is an important sort of thing for his career, you know, like this is a real book that is going to be in bookstore. and that, you know, people are going to be, like, reading and things like that. So he should take it seriously. And I think he understood that and, you know, was participated on, like, in. And for a penny and for a pound. Yeah.

Like, he was like, all right, if I'm going to do this, like, I'll talk to you about this stuff. Yeah. Go ahead, Zach. Boat likes to tease me about that. That's like an evergreen expression. I would never do that. Yeah. He's about everything.

But one of the things that he teases me about is my weird recollection of how, like, different people met their significant others. All you do is read the, read the, the one, the piece in the athletic and you get the answer right there. No, but I'm saying the, the life of David Gale, going to him to see the life of David Gale and he's in high. Yeah. How did you come across that, that morsel of information?

I just was, I was talking to, uh, to Ellen his wife about just kind of like their early days dating and like Ellen is the best interview in America, I think, because. she just like thinks and anecdotes she's just great i mean she just was so like she just tells great stories and remembers funny things and like has just you know so i was just asking her about like their early time dating and she told me this you know story of them going to see this awful kevin spacy movie the life of uh david gale and uh they couldn't get it awful by the way but yeah i don't know they i don't i've never seen it they didn't seem to like it you know i don't support kevin spacy but that's you know whatever you guys exactly on the record as as as a

Whatever you guys want to do on this show, that's fine. This is your platform. Never going to skip that one now either. But, yeah, she was just telling me the story about they couldn't get tickets because they were R-rated and she was mortified when Clayton ran back to her dad and like kind of knocked on the car window and asked him to go buy the tickets because they couldn't get them. And so, yeah, she just just is great with stories and details. And so being able to talk to her, you know, extensively for this, I think made the book just a lot better. I want somebody asked about in the chat so so I feel like I should ask you about it but since this was in the window that you were you know narrowed in and writing the book the controversy from last year with the sisters of perpetual indulgence and in Kirsha how does how does that sort of play into everything yeah I mean it's in the book it's the sort of thing that one of the one of his guiding sort of qualities is his Christian faith and so you know, that has some

offshoot I think that sometimes, you know, can be frankly, you know, that can be frankly like offensive to people. And he was upset. There's a whole, it's kind of, all right, let me start from you back. It's, uh, at,

we'll get to something later after this. No, it's fine. I mean, look, I mean, it's not, you know, I, I, there were a few, there were times like during the right. His views are not, you're not, you're not, you're not, you're not on the hook. He's just one of, correct, but I also want to, like, explain it within the context of why, because I, you know, want to be fair to him.

It's the sort of thing that, like, last year, people were like, you're going to write about this? And it's like, yeah. Like, it was a major national news story, yes. So, last year, the Dodgers, when they hosted Pride Night, they disinvited this group called the, they originally invited this group called the Sisters of Professional Indulgence. They are a group of queer and trans nuns. in San Francisco, who were very active, especially in the 80s, you know, sort of, you know, raising money and awareness. And the group, the invitation to the group triggered this sort of, like, kind of clearly coordinated sort of conservative backlash where like the Dodgers are

getting robocalls and Marco Rubio wrote a letter to Rob Manfred. And there was kind of a backlash towards this group being invited to Pride Night. The Dodgers disinvited the group, and then they subsequent, when there was an internal backlash from Dodgers people and people in Los Angeles, and it looked like the whole Pride Night would sort of be, you know, kind of wrecked by this whole thing. The Dodgers re-invited the group.

During this process, Kershaw went to Dodgers management and asked that they bring back Christian Faith and Family Night, which is a regular event that had been discontinued by the pandemic, but they've been doing it for years and years. And in announcing that Christian Faith and Family Night was coming back, he basically said that he had been, he was upset at the Sisters of Provincial Indulgence being invited to Pride Night. He felt that they're, the imagery they use, essentially it's like this group, they kind of dress up like, you know, nuns to sort of mock, you know, whatever. But Kershaw described it as like he felt like they were making fun of Christian. Christianity and he did not care for that.

And so he spoke out against that. He said it wasn't an LGBTQ issue. It was just this particular group he found to be offensive. And so, yeah, it's, you know, like I said, like one of the central tenets of, you know, who he is as a person is his faith. This is one of, you know, part of it is he has, you know, views about sort of, you know, gay marriage. it necessarily agree with. He believes that, you know, it's one of those like, you know, hate the sin, love the sinner. He believes all people deserve a life with dignity and respect.

But, yeah, it's one of those things that I probably explained it better in the book. It's, it wasn't. Go by the book. Yeah, go by the book. It requires, like, a lot of explanation in order to basically just like say, he spoke out against this group, you know, he was described as, you know, bigoted because of it and everyone moved on. Go ahead, Zach.

Well, I have a lot of, like, you know, getting some Eagle stuff, too. Yeah. And now, I didn't know. The Eagles. Yeah. No, it may be one more tidy bow on the book before we make that, the final landing punch.

Before that, that, that transition to the teases. Yeah. So the last question, then, because I do want to be sensitive to the fact that we have an Eagles audience, but we are talking about this here. But I imagine that our Eagles audience is still following. They know Clayton Kirchall, right? You wrote this book now when he's in the twilight of his career, but he's still pitching.

The Dodgers and the Phillies, the two best teams in the NL this year from my estimation. So if you waited five years, you waited 10 years, what's the Clayton Kirchall legacy, right? like because he the thing now is the big game right that's that that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's kind of hanging over him um does he need to pitch and win in october for or ending in november frankly like that for that that final part of his legacy or if if if this injury if if if he never pitches again is he still like you said the greatest picture of our generation yeah i mean i think it it depends on who you're talking to i think if you talk to people in baseball like it's fairly clear there's nothing to be proven if you talk to him he would very much like to pitch well in October this year that is important to him if you talk to San Francisco Giants fans he's a huge choker and a loser you know and nothing will change that

but what I think his legacy will be is he's the greatest Dodger of all time he's a first ballot all famer I believe he is the you know the best pitcher of this generation and I I think it's also reflected in the book is he is a player who the best players that he competed against, you know, like Paul Goldschmidt, Charlie Blackman, Anthony Rizzo, you know, Chase Utley, David Wright, the people who like were considered elite at their time, they loved facing him because they knew that for that one day, they would get a chance to judge themselves against the best player out there. And that is, I think, a lasting legacy that, like, look, the postseason stuff is what it is. He's pitched better in the regular season than he has in October. But I don't think that that takes away from all that he's accomplished over the past 16 years. Also, fun fact, he went to high school with Matthew Stafford. Yeah.

Yeah, that's also in the book. Yeah, yeah. Matthew Stafford got a concussion on his trampoline one time. He conked his dome very hard. Do you have a number on how many people you talked to? two. 215. Wow.

Fantastic. Yeah. From Randy Wolf to Sandy Kofax. Nice. Yeah, it's nice. The last of his kind, Clayton Kershaw and the burden of greatness available, as Zach would say,

wherever books are sold. So we will move on in a minute to some non-Kershaw stuff, some Eagle stuff. But before we do that, we've got to talk about our friends at Miller Light. And I don't know, Zach might say that this was not the case, but I think it's possible that back when

the two of you were up late nights at Syracuse. Maybe you were sucking them back a little bit. Have a couple of Miller Lights because a lot has changed over the years, but one thing that hasn't is the great taste of Miller Light. Another thing that hasn't changed is that it continues to be less filling. So what is the best thing about the original light beer? Well, Miller Light sparked this debate in 1975 and we still haven't settled it. And the other great thing, it's only like 96 calories.

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Celebrate responsibly. Milwaukee, Miller Brewing Company, Milwaukee, Wisconsin, 96 calories per 12 ounces, fewer calories and carbs than premium regular beer. We said that Andy's local. If you want to know where Andy's from,

this is a hint. He's from where a True Mark Financial Credit Union is headquartered. That's because we talk about True Mark every day on this show. We're proud to work with a credit union like True Mark Financial, where you become a part owner,

which means profits come back to you instead of going to shareholders. They have better rates, lower fees, a better return on savings, and more flexible options with all the same digital tools and tech to make our lives easier. They have local roots. That's what we love about them. You're a Philly person working with a Philly Bank. They're headquartered in Fort Washington with 24 branches in the Philly area. They serve our community and our people right here at home.

Becoming a member of a credit union has so many benefits over being a customer at a bank. It's a total no-brainer. And like I said, what I love about is that it's a Philly brand. We're a Philly show and they're a Philly Bank. Head over to trumark.com slash pHLY to learn more or to find a branch near you. That's trumark.com slash p.gloi, federally insured by the N-C-U-A. So last week, Zach and I talked about, you know, can we get Andy on the show to talk about his book? And yesterday, Zach was like, let's see if we can do it tomorrow.

And he sends me a screenshot of your text messages. you know, to say that you, that you're coming on the show. Wow. And I could not believe. I mean, you guys have been friends for 18 years, as you said, the level of formality. Like, he was such a formal texter. I was like, Zach, what is going on? It's like, you haven't met Andy before.

He's like, well, I don't know. I am a formal texter. Is this a long running thread for you? Well, Zach's a professional guy. I mean, like, he is a very professional guy. He's very respectful of, you know, both his friends, colleagues, and, you know, whoever is enemies may be. Or whatever your relationship is.

Some of us are all three. Whatever your relationship is with Connor or these days. You're professional with him. So that by the way, I mentioned Connor at the, was it the Combine or the Super Bowl? That was so much fun. I had a blast just watching you guys talk about how much you hated each other

based on who wanted to cover the New Jersey Nets in 2010. That's like, that's the good stuff. I enjoy that. I want to what the story is. How was your two? How was your guy's relationship different from college versus colleagues at the Star Ledger? With me and Zach?

Yeah. I think we've always been the same. Yeah, we were never like, you know, we were never pitted against one another in the way that, you know, he and Connor were for, you know, like assignments. Like, you know, because Zach went to the, you know, he went to the Washington Post when he graduated and was, you know, went on to fame and fortune and then came over to, you know, the ledger where it was working and then went to the inquire after what, like two years? Yes. Yep. So, I mean, Zach's just been on an upward trajectory the whole time, you know. And so I've always been very, very proud to consider him a friend. And I've always admired his work, his work ethic and his professionalism. There you go. It's nice to say. Yeah, then first off, there's no rivalry with that Connor. It was just, you're 24 years old. You're, you know, and and that was the great thing, by the way, about like when Connor was on, we talked about that Star Letcher Sports section. the same thing, the Daily Orange, the Star Ledger went when we were there, you're around,

like, talented, like-minded people. And what makes you better is, is, uh, is being around talented, like, minded people, right? And that's, that's always been the case with Andy. Like, if you, uh, and by the way, I, I don't make a habit of, of sending screenshots attached. I was, I was showing, he said, he was just, yeah, he was letting me know that you were in, but I was like, you know, you were in. It wasn't like, yeah, it wasn't like every text that could sent. I'm not sending employs text around. It was like, yeah, dear Mr. McCullough. You know, you'd love fun. You've sent me

a lot of screen grabs of your conversations with Lee Steinberg or whoever is, you know, Power broker. Yeah, but no, but in all seriousness, if you went into my Gmail and you searched for the term lead check,

L-E-T-H-E-C-K, back when we were on G-Chat all the time, right? Yeah. It's kind of changed over the years. But every I'm not exaggerating. Every story I wrote before I filed, I would send the lead to Andy, right? Or to MacGalb or you go on down the list. We went to school with some great people. And yeah, it was so that it was always like with Connor, we were both covering the NFL

and we were both the number two people on our jobs. But there was a, but actually during the summer, the spring and summer, Connor and I would need to be the backup baseball writers, right? And Andy at the time was the beat writer for the Mets. So literally, like when I say backup, like I took Andy's hotel room when he when he got vacation or not vacation, but like time off during spring training. Like we had there was the resonance in down and in was it Jupiter. Port St. Lucy. Yeah.

I'm sorry, Port St. Lucy. And I would just cycle into Andy's room thereafter. when he would head back up north. Same thing with like Mark Corray. But yeah, that competition was like, shoot, he gets to cover the Yankees on this day when Jeter's going for 3,000. And I'm doing a, I'm doing a Willie Harris story over at City Field, which I did a lot of Willie Harris story.

You loved Willie Harris, yeah. I got along great with Willie Harris. He was the best. He was the best. Every day I would. But no, this was, yeah, I was, it was, it was always like, you're around talented like mind of people and that made us all better. Yeah.

One thing, one, go ahead. Go ahead. Just iron sharpens iron. And when I think of myself, I think of myself as iron. You got a football guy right there. Yeah. That's an offensive line at Upper Dublin for you right there. Yeah, that's a product of, you know, CTE from all my, from 10 years of high school football.

Let's talk a little football, Andy. I guess my first question, what is like if 10 is shoulder pad Sean? Like you paint your face and wear stuff in terms of eagle sick onus and one is a zero. Where are you on the scale right now? And how much is that affected by the fact that you are a professional journalist covering? Sure. Does the dirty 30 still exist? I think so.

Okay. More mythology than in like literal. Gotcha. Yeah, yeah. I mean, because Angelo shows. doesn't exist anymore. Right, right, right. Okay, okay.

Yeah. I'm probably like, I'll say like a six and a half, I would say. And I was like a one for years and years and years and years. Like so I, you know, I grew up in Montgomery County, you know, I went to Upper Dublin and I was, you know, my dad had season tickets in 751 at the vet. You know, we go to games like two or three times a year with him. I was like the biggest, you know, I love the Eagles, like, so much basically up until I got to college and it was, you know, my freshman year was 2005, which was not a particularly fun season, as I recall. And I remember.

Mike McMan year. Yeah. Yeah, I remember. Oh, there was a way to relive all of those seasons and sort of the narrative arc of the past 25 years of Eagle season. That would be interesting. Yeah, I would love to maybe in a bound sort of volume. If you go to Los Angeles bookstores, you won't see. that there. I'll tell you that. You might be an affiliate bookstores this fall. Anyway,

whenever you've got to be really Harris biography, Zach. But yeah, like in that year, I just remember like, I don't know, they lost some game and like on like Wednesday, I was still mad. And I was just kind of like, I'm not letting this team ruin my life anymore. Like, I'm just not, you know. And it coincided with me getting into journalism. And so I had like a, you know, a moral high ground or whatever. And so I was just like out. basically from from there on and and never came back to any of the other philly teams in any other way you know but what happened was really is when they won the super bowl like i followed along that that uh playoffs and i was very happy for my friends and family that they won and and you know but like

when they won i i had just kind of like an empty feeling almost because i hadn't earned any sort of um you know like i hadn't been there on the journey and so like i was happy from you know like a for my friends and family, but it was just, and I kind of was like bummed that I didn't get to like sort of feel any of that. And so I sort of just kind of started to tiptoe back in. I followed the next year. And then it really was, you know, got through the pandemic year. And then, yeah, that season in 2022 when, you know, when Jalen sort of broke out, I kind of just got back into it and really, really enjoyed it. And so, but I think I have like, I think I have a pretty healthy relationship with it.

Like, I watch them most Sundays. I'm very happy when they win. When they lose, I'm like, I don't care. Like, it's fine. You know, and for a long time, you know, I was sort of, you know, as one of these like Big J. Journalists that's like, you know, no, you cannot have any rooting interest. But like, the Washington Post is never going to hire me.

So, like, it doesn't matter. Like, they just, they're never going. I dare them. You'll be lucky. If anyone there is listening, I dare you to try and buy me out of my contract with the athletic. You won't do it. You're at an amazing place.

You don't need to watch the place. I'm just saying. I'm just saying. No. So it was more just like from the, it was like, look, you know, the athletic is a is a more freeform place or whatever. Who cares? Anyway, I kind of have, as you get older, you're like, okay, why do I, you know, I, like, impartial. If I was sent to cover the NFL, I would obviously, like, not show up in an Eagles hat and I would cover the team the same way.

But like, I like watching them on Sundays. So that's where I'm at with it. How have your. Philly sensibilities carried with you, right? Because, you know, you're understanding yourself. You are like, I mean, objectively, one of the great baseball writers in the country. There's another one over my shoulder here, this way, sir. Yeah.

You get to lean the other way. Tyler Kepner, who your colleague at the athletic, also from the Philly area. And like he has, he has certain sense of. that came up from growing up reading Bill Lyon and like the great Philly writers at that at that time. How are you shaped personally from growing up in this area at the time that you did watching those Eagles teams that you did, but also reading what you did and being around like that Philly personality? That's a good question. I mean, I don't know if I, I feel somewhat, I don't want to say like, like I'm stealing Philadelphia Valley.

but like, you know, like I've never lived in the city. And like I left, you know, Montgomery County. This is like a Villanova debate here. Come on. Yeah. Yeah. I am from the area. You grew up.

I am. I am from the area. Yeah. But like I've, it's one of the cities where like I've spent, I haven't spent as much time as I've spent there in like Chicago or, you know, I lived in L.A. for five years or like I lived in Kansas City for two years, you know, so like I haven't, I, I almost feel like something of an expat, you know, like when I come back. And I'm like, oh, wow, they have nice restaurants here.

Okay, you know. So I really don't know. I mean, I was so like, I associate my sort of Philadelphia sports consumption so little with journalism and so much more with like caring about the teams that it's hard for me to make that connection. But like, yeah, it's not as someone like I watch like Daily News Live every day. And it took me a very long time to be like, oh, I could be one of those guys. Like that wasn't my sort of goal when I was at that age. But it's obvious that like that's part of the influences, you know, you see that like there are people. Like I remember like, I remember what it was.

I just realizing like, oh, I can be one of the person to, you know, people who can like write things in the newspaper. Like, oh, wow, maybe I actually, that could be a good way to, you know, make money for goods and services. So yeah, I don't know. It's a hard question for me to answer. I don't have an accent, which... Yeah, you have a good performative one. Yeah. My wife has banned it from our house.

She really dislikes it. But yeah, so I don't know. Like, again, I feel like I'm stealing Philly Valor when I talk about the city, just because I've never, like, I left home when I was 18 and I've never lived there otherwise the past 18 years, you know? Zach, what do you think of the idea of a daily news live type thing? type thing. I think that's a great idea. I want something about sports, you know, every day. Yeah, yeah, I think, um, and then keep tuning in the pH, Y. By the way, this is this is the second time in like a month, Zach, that you have just totally

thrown Gelb under the bus. What I do with gel? Like a list in great baseball writers and you're not even... I got, I obviously would include Gelb in there. I was, I was referencing people who moved away, okay? People who blew up here. and move the way. Gelb is pure Philly is here. Well, Gellup's still here.

Like, obviously, I'm going to carry Philadelphia with him, right? It would be weird if I ask Gelp, how didn't carry Philadelphia with you when you're in Philadelphia every day? You know, I was referencing Tyler Kepner and Andy as people who are here. I'm just giving you a chance to clear it up. That's all.

Like, there, you know, that he's, he's now an editor, but like Ben Spiegel was, was at the New York Times as a writer. And, like,

he grew up in this area. There's a lot of great writers from this area who were very much shaped by the time they grew up here. I mean, that's why that's part of the reason why it's so cool to work at PHY, where we have the Anthony Garganis show every morning. I listened to Anthony, you know, in the car during my childhood. So when I'm sitting at the desk with him yesterday, it's like, oh, this is, this is like 13-year-old Zach, 15-year-old Zach, I think this is pretty cool.

I mean, 38-year-old Zach thinks it's pretty cool. So sometimes I'll be just sitting alone. in my apartment and I'll just say to myself, yo, because we're talking about Penn State football, man, is Wally Richardson the guy to replace Gary Collins this year? So, yeah, the WIP was very formative. Like, I used to fall asleep to WIP every night. Me too.

Just listening to, you know, on the radio, was John LeClair in the crease yet again? Can we please get this man out of the crease? We are losing goals at a rapid rate here. And what are your, what are your Eagles? concerns right now. Well, like, shouldn't they have hired Mike Vrable?

Mike Vrable? Why, Mike Vrable? I don't know. Is he better than Siriani? I'm asking. Concussion, uncle. I mean, he did have a lot of success in Tennessee to Andy's point, yes. But no, I think if they didn't keep. That's like, you know, run the ball, run the ball twice and hope you can run it again on third down kind of guy who does not fit the Eagles organizational ethos.

I will say I have, well, don't they have Jeff Stowland? He's very good at that sort of thing. He's the offensive line coach, not the head coach. Well, maybe, I mean, maybe they should consider reorganization. No, I have become, I know this about myself and I am very much, I'm the guy on third and four who's like, perfect, run the ball. Like, let's go. Like, that's great. Like, yeah, and then they throw and I'm like, why are you throwing the ball?

Like on, actually, it's third and two. When I see passes on third and two, I really do go crazy because just run the ball. You can run the ball. And I know that I'm wrong. I know, no, no, no. I know that I'm wrong. Like, I know intellectually that I am wrong. But in my heart, I'm like, it's third and two run the football, please.

I have become the sort of person who used to send me emails asking why teams don't bunt anymore. Yes. You know, like, I watch the NBA and I'm like, man, they're taking. taking a lot of threes. You know, what is? Like, I watch Jalen Brunson, like, take these, like, mid-range twos, and I'm like, see, that's basketball. This guy gets it.

And so, yeah, I mean, that's just the product of having to watch, like, 200 baseball games a year and think about baseball. And then you come to this other thing for, like, entertainment. And you don't, when you're not as locked in, you don't notice the changes, like, gradually. You know, so now when I watch, I'm just like, where's the fullback? Why is the fullback not on the? field. It's it's third and one. It's like the, you know, the saying that you get more conservative as

you get older. It has not happened politically. It has only happened to you as your, as your fandom. Yes, I would say, I would say it has happened extremely in my football opinions. Like, that's probably the, that's the area of my life by far where I am the most conservative. Go ahead, Zach. Did you have something? No, that cracks me up. Just because like you would get infuriated, like you said, if someone email you being like, uh, oh, yeah. You know, this guy's batting average is such and such. Why are you talking about his bat-up in the paper, right? If someone sent me an email that was like, yeah, Kyle Swarber is not a leadoff hitter,

I'll be like, you're an idiot. You don't understand how baseball works, but I'm watching the Eagles and I'm like, it's third and two. Why do you have three wide receivers on the field? Get into Jumbo. Yeah. I was going to interject earlier. You mentioned your wife in passing, but we'll,

You should give her a plug here. Stephanie Apsi from Sports Illustrated has a great piece up on Brandon Marsh. Yeah. And I read. It was earlier this week that I read it. But I imagine it's still up there. Yeah. So make sure you check that out.

Yeah. Make sure you check that out because, yeah, she's an outstanding baseball writer as well. Not from Philadelphia, I believe. So I can't ask her about the Philadelphia upbringing. But great piece on Brandon Marsh, who's never brought anything online, apparently. Yeah. She just wrote a story about how Brandon Marsh has never used online shopping, which, you know, she's able to get things out of players that I wouldn't think to ask. And that's why you got the life of David Gale.

Okay. So give yourself some credit. Yeah. It's funny, speaking of things that are still up there, I got to give the Daily Orange a shout out because like both of your guys, full, like histories are still up there. So I love to go see both of your final columns. And I thought it was a nice little duality. because Zach's was very much on brand. He was complaining about the fact that he had to write about himself,

which he did not want to do. Not complain. Please pick a different verb. I do not complain. He moaned. Okay. Not allowed to complain in my house. Where he started with a tale of starting his fandom

by drinking shots of rum with the buddies as a freshman. Yes. Yeah. I would say I drank a lot more than Zach in college. that's for sure. Yeah, that was yeah, yeah, we had something at the office the other day. And it was like an office celebration, if you will. And it wasn't a, so it was a meeting and then like a hang out afterwards. And we were doing a schedule show at 8 o'clock. And someone's like, like, Zach, you don't want a beer. And then Bo and or Jackson's like, Zach's doing a show tonight. There's no chance he's going to drink a beer before a show.

And I was like, yeah, it's about right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't, I don't drink at work. I mean, I'm professional, though. I mean, yeah, there you go. I got to tell you, maybe if I, if I wrote about the rum shots, I would have an aging getting me national book. Save it, dude. Save it. Is it Boris? I wish.

I wish. Scott would be a good rep. Scott would do a good job. I will say I would, when I was still a, when I was a baseball beat writer, I started doing this in 2014. And then I continued it through my last like five years on the beat. I would figure out. what was the worst game I had watched all year. So it usually would take a while to get there.

But like usually by July or August, I would know like this is the worst baseball game I have seen all year. This game is awful. And in like the third or fourth inning, I would go into the stands and have one beer and then come back. And it was just, just that's what I would do like once a year for. And it was a nice tradition that I could look forward to like all year.

Knowing like, all right, if this game continues to suck, like I can finally get to the one beer of the year. So I would do that every year. It was a nice little tradition I had for myself. I like that. And then all of a sudden those games become memorable. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Yeah. It was in Pittsburgh, San Diego, Toronto, and Cleveland. All right. There you go. Zach, never. There's only 16, 17 games. I don't want to be like, holier than now here. But no, you find the beauty in every game.

It's like a person, right? If you, you can find redeeming qualities in everyone you meet. You know, it's just a matter of the fee, if you're looking for that. Look, when you, when you're a football writer and you have to write on deadline, you know, 15 to 17 times a year, like, I understand that you want to make the most of it, you know. But when you're working for a living as a baseball writer, you know, it's just very different. Yeah, when you write for a mass audience, there's a lot of people. I'm supposed to a niche audience. So, yes.

What is funny is like covering the Eagles in the city of Phil, I would love to know like what is like definitively a more competitive beat than this. Like I would say probably like the presidential campaign is probably more competitive and probably like Congress. But less or more obsequious. Well, you know, we'll see. I've listened to the show from, you know, I would have loved to hear more pro variable talk. But like of beats in a like, okay, just American sports, it has to be the toughest beat. It has to be the most competitive. Like with the like it is a it is incredible the how many like the work you guys do in the sort of limited windows of time you have to interact these guys at the competitive level.

Like do other people in football writing sort of recognize that the way it seems so clear to me? I don't know about football writing, but I can tell you anecdotally, like without betraying confidence that there are former coaches and former executive, you know, and former staff members who go on to a different team, different market. And like when they see me and their comment to me, it's you don't realize what this is like, you know, this is like a day at the beach compared to Philly. Yeah. You know, you know, there is, there's no one like screaming. Yeah, I'll actually give, give Shield Capadia. Yeah. He'll tell us the story.

His first day in Seattle, he like screams a question at Pete Carroll. And Pete Carroll was literally, why are you screaming at me? Yeah. And it's not even like, I guess, you know, I don't know, the audience here would probably dislike the idea of like Philadelphia being a sort of negative town or whatever. I'm not suggesting that. It's more just like the intensity of both. the fan interest and the sort of level of like just passion and work ethic that you guys bring to the job.

I mean, I think that's part of the deal is it's just it's so much more just I guess the simplest word is competitive. Like it doesn't seem like outlets are really cooperating all that much in a way that like a lot of baseball beats like the writers like share quotes, you know, from like they transcribe the press conferences together and things like that. and I've never totally understood that. I feel like that birds be probably that isn't happening. I could be totally wrong, but who can say? You know what? It happens at the owner's meetings transcribing Jeffrey Lurie's press conference. Gotcha.

That's one that gets broken up. Because you're all there. Yeah. Otherwise. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Although I do think the like, tell me if you disagree, Zach, the, the personal competitiveness of like people not getting along.

is not like it used to be. I think the people get along, it's more of a, it's more of a pride. Has anything ever happened with regard to that? I mean, look, that's that's personality-centric, but it's also like, like the media is, is different now. You know, when I was at the Inquirer, like the Daily News before we kind of joined forces, it was very much our competition. Like if, if Les had something that I didn't have, I would hear about it, right?

And it was even more pronounced before the internet when it would live a full day. But now, you know, with a media company that is doing daily shows in addition to writing, as opposed to if you're at a media company where your focus is on writing 3,000 word stories, you know, every week. Whereas as opposed to if you're on TV or if you're on, you know, WIP, if you're at the inquiry and there's different roles within that. So I just think it's grown so big that it's not. It's not like there are two jobs that are exactly the same anymore. That's reasonable. Yeah, I just, I think Eagles fans are, you know, not just the work you guys do, but I just think if you want to know what's going on with the Eagles,

like there's a lot of ways to find out. And I think it's like I wish that there's only one best way, though. That is true. That is true. Jeff McLean. No. Jeff is really good. I admit that.

I worked for seven years. No, no, no. but I just I wish that like other teams were covered that way really like it's it's something that I feel like the industry is missing I think that's well said if only if only the industry was growing and not dwindling but that's a story for another day okay well if you are an eagle's fan and you want to support an eagle's fan go out and buy last of his kind Clayton Kirshaw and the burden of greatness wherever books are sold Zach probably Zach Berman, probably the second most famous lefty in America behind Clayton Kurtzell. I don't know about that, but Clayton, yeah, Andy, so happy for you and all your, like, we were in this. This is awesome.

Everyone should read it. I have a dog ear, as you can see here, and yeah, I love it. It's a great work. Thank you so much for having me. This was really fun. Thank you so much for taking the time, Andy. And congratulations. Thank you. All right, that'll do it for this episode of the P.H.O. Eagles podcast back Monday at high noon talking OTAs and whatever else.

Thanks for listening. Thanks for watching all week. Have a wonderful weekend. We'll talk to you later. And as always, we love.