PHLY Philadelphia Eagles Podcast - PHLY Eagles Podcast | How Philadelphia Eagles will react to NFL’s new kickoff rule change and more from Jeffrey Lurie, Nick Sirianni

Episode Date: March 27, 2024

The NFL league meetings finished, and one big change is the new kickoff rule. Zach Berman and Rich Hofmann discuss what’s different, other rule changes, and continue to discussing comments from Jeffrey Lurie and Nick Sirianni Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome to the PHLY Eagle Show. I'm Zach Berman, here with Rich Hoffman, Bo Wolf, with his family this week. So we get to spend the next three days with Rich. Excited for that. Rich, thanks for joining us today and this week. Zach, it's wonderful to be with you. And we were talking about how you were still in Florida, but you were in a different place in Orlando. How long was that drive over the past day here?

Yes. Well, so I, the drive down here, I came this morning. I'm in like South Florida. I'm at my in-laws place. I'll be transparent. And it was about three hours this morning. I spent it listening to Jason Kelsey and doing prep work for the show in my head. So, yeah, it went by pretty quickly.

Let me ask you too. So you are in kind of the southern Florida now at this point. Yeah, like Boynton Beach, that area. Yep. Okay. I had one of the worst drives. of my life from Orlando, from Miami to Orlando, actually. And I decided, instead of flying in between Sixers games, of course, instead of flying,

I was like, you know, I'll take a drive. I got the day off here, get a car rented or whatever. I drove up through the middle of the state. It was one of the scarier drives I've ever done in the middle of the night because it felt like every sign said alligator crossing. And I was like, man, I hope my car doesn't break down. here. So if you went to Boyton Beach, I hope you kind of went, not up through the middle of the state because that was a tough memory for me. When I got to Orlando, I was pretty pumped.

Yeah, no, I was, I was straight through on the Florida Turnpike. Didn't see much except tractor trailers and the palm trees on the side. So went by quickly and was was eagerly awaiting this show because we are talking rule changes, which might not be the sexiest topic, but I think it actually is going to have a material effect on games this year, as we'll get into, in particular, the kickoff rule change. Some leftover news and notes from the owner's meetings, very productive past few days in Orlando with Bo. We'll talk some Jason Kelsey as well,

some interesting information out there. But before that, I just wanted to get some news at the top as I was driving down. Jeff McClain from the Inquirer reported that Jake Rosenberg, a high-ranking executive with the Eagles, vice president of football administration. He's going to leave when his contract expires after the draft. Now, I think the casual fan or even the devoted fan might not know the specifics of Jake Rosenberg. He's been with the organization since 2011.

He's a key figure in their roster building strategy, their cat management, things of that nature. he was a bonds and commodities trader for a decade before coming to the Eagles, a pen guy. Shout out to all our pen viewers. And he's very well respected in the league. And he's leaving on his own volition. He's because it's pretty clear. Howie Roseman is the GM here in Philly, right? I mean, Howie Roseman's not going anywhere.

He's kind of been trenched in that spot. And this is as I'll give credit to Jeff McLean. Jake, you know, went on record, kind of talked about it. Jake wants to continue kind of his growth toward becoming a general manager. So it's kind of about a trajectory in his career, kind of hit a cap, if you will, with the Eagles, one could say. But this is a major loss for the Eagles. And you knowing the Eagles, you covered the Sixers, you saw kind of how important some of these, maybe not like the front line, you're Dale Moore.

or Sam Hinky, but the guys kind of behind the scenes who really helped put that roster together. What was your reaction when you saw this news? Well, yeah, I think especially the people who were on the front lines of salary cap negotiations, not the sexiest position in the world, but obviously super critical. Zach, I wonder, because there were a few years there where the Howie Roseman executive tree, it felt like other teams were just kind of raiding the Eagles. They were like, we want somebody who's learning. under Howie and it felt like you can correct me.

I mean, you can add some more names. Andrew Barry is the one that I was thinking of where, you know, highly respected guy, but he's here for one year. And then it's like, okay, I got the big job in Cleveland. And I wonder if, you know, Jake Rosenberg, a lot of people think Howie Roseman is a salary cap guy. I think that's unfair. You know, I think he does a lot more.

And he's deserves, he's done an excellent job of team building at times during his, during his tenure that he doesn't need to be the numbers guy anymore. I wonder if getting out from his shadow, though, is playing into Rosenberg's decision here. I don't know. Yeah, interesting perspective there. And I would say, like a following up on kind of what you said, that Howie is an all-around GM in the sense that, yeah,

he did not play football at Florida, but he's been in the NFL now for over two decades. he's worked with Andy Reed. He's he's worked around a lot of like really good smart, quote-unquote football guys. I think Howie's a football guy now with the background too of, you know, someone who has a law degree and came up on the cap side of the operation. And the reality is being a GM is much more than sitting there and evaluating. the right guard from Boise State, right? I mean, it's, it's really about how do you take the resources that you have?

Everyone, Howie will tell you this. Everyone in the, in the league essentially has the same resources. You have the same allotment of draft picks each year. You have the same cap space each year. How do you maximize those, those, that cap space? How do you maximize the draft picks? And Jake has, has been party to seeing different stages of this. the team building from a rebuilding perspective, trying to keep a championship team together,

different head coaches coming in, like regime changes. And so when you're in Philly for, well, he came in a year before me. So 14 years or thereabouts, you know, going into year 14, so 13 years, you see quite a bit. And Jake Rosenberg seen quite a bit. And he's actually, he's the man kind of on the front line, often with contract negotiations. And I will also add two to your point. Like Andrew Barry, he was

barely here for a cup of coffee almost right. I mean, he was here in between Cleveland stops, but to your point, especially, Joe Douglas was here, goes on, becomes a GM. Andy Weidel was here. Goes on becomes a you know, he's kind of the head

of the football side of the building for the Steelers. They have guys who've gone on become assistant or people who have been assistant GMs. like Ian Cunningham in Chicago, Kate Rache in Cleveland, Brandon Brown with the Giants. And what's interesting, though, is you see, I hate splitting it up as football guy and like non-football guy or football person,

non-football person. But for someone like Jake who doesn't have the traditional football background, right? There's, I don't think that stigma is there, but kind of like when when people say someone like Joe Douglas comes and works with Howie and you kind of see one way of doing it and you take the opportunity. Joe Douglas looks like a football guy. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think I'm I think a team would would benefit greatly by hiring Jake and and by kind of putting him on that type of track because and I'm not just telling you like from my exposure to him from talking to people in the league.

he's extraordinarily respected. And as I said, Jeff, Jeff conveyed that well and again, good job and Jeff Spee's there. I think Howie is trying to convey that he's a football guy, Zach. I remember when I worked for Philly Voice, Jimmy Kempski and I,

I guess I can, I don't think Jimmy would mind me sharing this. Howie has a lot of pictures in the, you know, the AP database, all these pictures that we use for our digital stories. He loves throwing the pigskin around before games and that, Eagles charity events.

There are a remarkable amount of pictures of Howie in a suit or, you know, at training camp, whatever, throwing a football. So, you know, maybe he is a football guy. Yeah, I like it. Like anyone who's who's ever had that conversation with me, I would always say like, like what does it take to become a quote unquote football guy? Like how he's been a general manager since, since 2010. he's he's watched more tape than like every you know guy who said well the well they played backup linebacker in high school right i mean i mean i mean what does it take to become that i think i think the eagles uh i think that that argument was well it was popular during the chip kelly years right i mean ship once called like tom gamble the football guy um but i'm gamble yeah yeah but i think we're like a long past that

that assessment of Howie at this point. And it's, it's, it's really how well he can build a team and, and certainly maintain a team. Look, he's not perfect, but I'm not going to get, uh, get caught up in football guy number cruncher when you lead the team to two Super Bowls in like seven years. So it's. Well. Yeah. So.

So, so one thing actually how he's going to be tasked with, uh, during these next few weeks and these next few months is figuring out if, if the Eagles. are well equipped to return kickoffs. And I say that because returning kickoffs is going to look considerably different. And I can kind of outline it, but I'll give a quick shout out. Rich had a good, I say, Rich, you know, I'm talking to you here, had a good thing in your newsletter today, which I hope everyone subscribes to. And, you know, talking about kickoffs.

This is big news for the NFL. This is a radical change. like you can see in the headline here. And basically, so the ball was kicked from the 35-yard line. And it's instituted for one year, which is the same. All kicking team players, other than the kicker, though, will line up with one foot on the receiving team's 40-yard line. The kicker cannot cross the 50-yard line until the ball touches the ground

or a player in the landing zone or end zone. then the 10 kicking team players cannot move until the ball hits the ground or a player in the landing zone or the end zone catches it. And I can kind of get into all the alignments. The thing with the landing zone is it's an area between the receiving team's goal line and it's 20 yard line. You can go online to kind of see visual demonstrations of this, which was done in what, the XFL or, yeah. But the bottom line here is they're bringing kickoffs back. it's going to look far more like a football play, almost like a running play, if you will, then where you have blockers in front of you and then a traditional kickoff.

So as you've looked into this, what type of effect do you think it's going to have? So I like it. It took me a minute to digest everything because when you talk about things like landing zone and players have to stay stationary until, you know, the ball gets touched or it hits the ground. I thought, maybe this is a little hokey. But just watching it and thinking about where we have come over the years and kickoffs and where we are right now, I think I like it. So it and I think it's the rare rule change where it's going to accomplish the two goals that the NFL set out, right?

They want to make the game safer, less concussions. And that's obvious, right? If players are starting at a stationary position closer to the goal line, less high speed collisions. Get that completely. But they also want to make the game more fun, right? They want more football plays. They don't want to see the ball going to the end zone because touchbacks have skyrocketed

over the past few years. Real quick, Zeeb, because it's not, it's not trivia Thursday in my newsletter, but I look this up on stat news. So do not hold it against me if I'm wrong. But I believe this is right. and I was going to do it for tomorrow's newsletter, but it's opening day. I figured we might as well go Philly's stuff for that.

So since you have been on the beat, I don't know the exact date of that, but I think that'll give you, I think that'll give you a hint, yeah, that it's not, there was nothing around that time. There have been four Eagles kickoff return touchdowns in regular season games.

I don't know if it includes the postseason. Can you name the players who have delivered those kickoff return touchdowns? downs. Four Eagles kickoff return touchdowns. Okay. So I can tell you, Damaris Johnson's one of them, right? Or is no. So, okay, Josh Huff is definitely one of them. He is one. Josh Huff's one of them. And I'm going to, and I'm going to give you a hint. He did it twice, actually. Josh Huff did, or the, or someone else did it twice. Josh Huff did. So you're looking for two more names after that. Okay, two more names. Okay.

So yeah, because Damaris Johnson was a punt return. That, that was a, that was a in Dallas. So Josh Huff. Dangerous weapon. Yeah. I don't think, I don't think Sproles would fit that. Sprouls was returning puns. He wasn't returning kickoffs.

Chris Polk was he won? Very good. Okay. Chris Polk's one. What a name Chris Polk. That first chip here. That was something. They would put him in as the victory cigar and he had a little juice.

Yep. Number 32 from Washington. And then so let me think from, it's probably the Doug era and I should know this then if it's if it's the Doug area Wendell Smallwood. Very good Zeeb. Okay. All right.

Good. I nailed it. All right. Damaris Johnson was a punt return. I made that error. So I think the fact that we are talking about Wendell Smallwood, Chris Polk, and the fact that even with your recall and you did get it, like pretty forgettable play over the the past. Yeah. Even 10 years, right? Like just not, not a lot of excitement. I mean, I remember when

I think Josh Huff did it, one of those, I think was against the Titans at the, it was like the opening kickoff of the game. It just, it was like such a jolt because you weren't even paying attention to kickoffs. It was like, whoa, holy crap. Like they actually were able to get that blocked up and run it back. And I think it's kind of the same thing. It's, it's what extra points used to be too, right? That's like, uh, if you're in the stadium, maybe you, uh, you go to the, uh, you go to the bathroom. If you're at home, maybe you go to the kitchen, make some food, something like that. It just was not exciting. So the more I think about this, you know, like the kickoff rule, it's changed quite a bit over our lifetimes. I mentioned this in the newsletter today. Do you remember

the wedge buster? Like the wedge and the yes. Yes. That guy was your concussion uncle's favorite football player. I mean, it almost seems kind of ridiculous now that they had one player who would run on basically like a kamikaze mission like just kind of like to break up these uh these offensive linemen who were locking arms and just kind of run into them and you know allow everybody else to make the tackle jason short is the uh is the old ego that i i always think of with uh with that rule but anyway my point is it's changed a lot over the years already so when you think about that i kind of like it like it's it's like you said it's more of a running play and look the uh the strategy is going to change a lot here from both the players you put kind of in front of

and kind of blocking it and how you coach it. So like, who are you putting? Here's a question when we get to the strategy, I would say. Yep. Are you putting Sequan Barclay back there to do those? Well, that's interesting. I had that conversation with someone yesterday. We'll get to that.

My quick answer is no, but someone similar to Sequin would be interesting. I do want to correct myself real quick, by the way. I said XFL was actually the UFL where I think this came from. I thought it was X-FL. Oh, was I, okay, all right. I'll correct the correction of the thing. Either way, it's from one of the secondary leagues. And if I didn't, I also want to want to clarify, too, that the ball has to be returned

if it's kicked into the landing zone. One thing that, you know, I was talking to Andy Reid, flex, about this. Okay, someone, okay, someone says it was XFL. I was talking to Andy Reid about this, and Andy Reid says that basically there's like 2,000 plays a game that aren't entertaining the fans. It doesn't matter to the players. It doesn't matter to the coaches, right?

Like, it's a touchback, and it's kind of like a wasted play. So now you're adding excitement back into this. Like you mentioned, with it's supposed to kind of be a football play while not presenting the injury rate of traditional kickoff returns, which is why they kind of scaled back from kickoff returns. Those were plays with high injury rates. This should be more comparable to a regular running play. The ball can be returned if it rolls to the end zone or kick to the end zone through the air. But basically what you're getting is more returns.

and you're not getting the same running start from a long distance, right? So that, like you said, that that brings down some of the collisions there. I know special team coaches, I know special teams coaches have already kind of looked at the strategy. I'm sure this is, I'm certain this is going to bring more excitement to the game. Like you have to watch kickoffs. There's going to be more kickoff return scores. I don't think it's coincidence that when this was announced shortly thereafter, Cordero Patterson signs a deal with the Steelers, right?

Cordero Patterson is really valuable with this type of thing. And so that kind of gets into the strategy, which is I think you'll see more of the running back type returner who has field vision. That's going to be really important. field vision as opposed to kind of just like the the straight line speed running through the return because there's there there there's less space to navigate think of it more like a a running play than a punt return it's like an outside zone you know yeah well said you know where where you have the whole field available and you're going to have blocking this keeps i mean think of those four names man

josh huff wendell smallwood chris polk not exactly who you would think of as like you know, incredible field vision. Like their job was to just get north-south and, you know, get 20, 25 yards, whatever it was. And now there's like some legit strategy here where, you know, it seems like you can do some trick plays out of this. It seems like there are a lot of things you can do. I think, though, when you and the rest of the beats are doing your,

your 52-man roster contest, I don't know if anybody who's listened to this podcast has heard about that before. But I think it's been mentioned a few times. Yeah. I think this changes something. I don't think both heard of it before, right? No, no, it was more directed at you. The Gunner's Union cannot be happy about this, right?

The guy on the outside who... That'd be a great union. Yeah. Yeah, just Matthew Slater, just by himself. Yeah, seriously. He got out at the right time. But it feels like, I don't know, you would go maybe a little bit heavier with your special teams, guys, guys who can block and move at the same time.

Maybe tight ends and linebackers matter a little bit more. I guess I guess starting with that, you know, also too, like the way you block it, you know, I know some people have mentioned there's going to be like legit run blocking schemes out of this formation, right? Like does Jeff Stoutland get involved even here a little bit? I don't know. Yeah. I do want to get into the schemes here and and kind of the personnel that I think matches what the Eagles have and perhaps they could add. Before we do that, though, I don't want too far to go along here. without telling everyone about olipop, okay? Because olipop, we're real excited about alipop partnering with us.

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I just got about a foot shorter. And I'm coming to you and I'm saying, I'm saying, Clay, Clay, draw me up something. what is like how am I going to do this? What would you recommend to him? Well, I think it would be a couple things, Zach. I think the first thing would be we probably need to get a little bit heavier at the back end of the roster. Now, maybe that's just one or two guys. I don't know exactly how that shakes out.

I think you probably have a better feel for, okay, these players were on for just special teams and just as gunners and just for their speed, those type of things. that would be the first thing. But I want you to talk this through with me. So if it's not Saquan Barkley, who on the Eagles roster right now is kind of the vision, like the running back, right? Is it, I don't think it's kind of Gainwell. Yeah. So it's interesting you say this because I was obviously thinking about this. And yeah, Gainwell has kickoff return experience.

and but he's not necessarily who I would kind of point to here now Sequan's the ideal yeah Sequons the ideal candidate but I'm not I'm not throwing Sequan out there for additional you know I I know that obviously that there's a the the injury the it's it's the reduced rate for injury here but nonetheless you know you're getting the ball 25 times 20 25 times a game of offense, right? That might certainly be sufficient. I think Paris Campbell, who the Eagles just signed, who has experienced returning puns and kickoffs, would be interesting in this type of role. And I know I said earlier that you're not just kind of looking at that straight line speed. If you look at Paris Campbell's history, even going back to Ohio State, when Urban Meyer was there, he was kind of used in that Percy Harvin type role, that Curtis Samuel type role. I don't want to call him a wide receiver running back hybrid. He, he, he, he, He had 90 catches at Ohio State.

He had 60 catches with the Colts a few years ago. Shout out to the 60 catch receivers, as Bo would say. But he's he hasn't really been a, he has a running back type skill set. Like he's almost been a gadget player out of the backfield. And I think his speed, his ability to have kind of the yards after the catch, that's one thing that jumps out. Covey's not a traditional returner. I think Covey could actually be interesting in this role. I've always found his vision and his decision-making to be an asset on punt returns,

and he would tell you that he's a different type of punt return. I see in the chat, Boston Scott. Boston Scott would be interesting, although Boston Scott's not under contract. I don't know if they would bring Boston Scott back. I think come draft time, this is something that you look for. but you know what if you think kind of like the perfect guy for this is corduero Patterson then I'm thinking all right that that wide receiver running back hybrid type player and that's what Paris Campbell strikes me as so I I was actually going to put

Paris Campbell as the thumbnail for this photo or for the show today I just didn't know if we're trying to draw in an audience we don't have Bose yellow shirt today to help draw it in if number zero on the Giants was was going to be the way to go. So I went Covey, but those are two that jumped the mind. Yeah, I think that good decision by you with the, with the thumbnail. Yeah, I think you would generally default to punt returner, right? This is not as fast developing of a play as a kick return is. It's like, it's not just get downhill, right? And I think punt returners, when they do get that chance, right, they're looking for, they have more freedom to kind of experiment, right? That's traditionally

how it's been they can take different angles they don't necessarily have to run straightforward right away although cubby generally does do that for the most part he's pretty decisive and looking for the holes like it's pretty decisive in getting you know his nine ten yards whatever it may be and he did a great job this year and i think zach you mentioned a name michael clay like he he really matters here you said this on yesterday's pod like i think this play obviously is going to matter more in general right we we talked about that's what the mba's or sorry, the NFL's aim is for this, right? They want the ball and play.

They want it to seem more like a regular football play. But I think it's really going to matter the first few months of this season. Like when the whole league is trying to get a handle on this, if you have an understanding and if you are ahead of the curve, like I think at some point everybody is going to generally catch up, right? I don't think it's going to be a massive advantage. But who knows, man, like in September when this is a whole new thing, It could be like a real asset if you, uh, if you have everything together for this.

And, uh, like, look, it's, it's funny with Michael Clay, right? He had the ire of, of the team in, in 20, or the fan base in 22. I, uh, I actually, it's funny. I remember a game against the Titans. I think it was in 22. It was the AJ Brown. Why, why did you trade me game? Just dominant performance on both sides of the ball, Zach. And I, uh, I thought it was funny because in Nick Siriani's, uh, post game, speech, which of course, the Eagles disseminated on all their social channels. He, uh, the special teams had its like first good performance of the season. And Nick Siriani, all he talked about after the game, despite the fact that AJ Brown went crazy and the defense was really good was special teams, way to go.

I got a lot of confidence in you. And it paid off, right? Like in, in 2023, I mean, didn't pay off in 2022, but in 2020, but in 2023, it kind of went under the radar because the other two sides of the ball were much more dysfunctional than they the season before, but Michael Clay had a great season, so he's going to be an important guy here. Yeah, that's a good point, and like the personnel that he

uses is going to be different. I imagine you made, you said it earlier, you're going to want Clay getting to get together with Stoutland. And I think that the like the backup tight ends are especially important because you mention it. This is almost like offensive line blocking schemes,

right? So you think about who's your past blocking or your run blocking tight end. That would be the type of personnel that you certainly want out there on the field in these situations. And I also want to give a shout out to you because as you said it and as I'm thinking about it, especially early in the year, I would consider putting Seekwon back there. And the reason I was hesitant is because, look, when you're Sequin Barclay, you want your numbers, right? I mean, you just signed this contract.

You want your offensive touches to go to your total yards. You know, you want to beat Christian McCaffrey for the total yard. You know, yeah, you want to be that type of player. And if you're picking up, you know, 30 yards on a kickoff return, that's not showing up in kind of the Pro Bowl voting, if you will, right? But early in the season, if you have this dynamic player like Sequin Barclay and teams, teams are still figuring out how to defend this, how to block this. If you have an exceptional player, a special player, as the Eagles labeled him, that could be a significant advantage. And maybe it doesn't have to be every time.

But you have a high leverage kickoff return in that spot. You know, it's the fourth quarter. And you're playing, you're in Brazil. You're playing the Browns. And, you know, Deshaun Watson just threw a pass the Jerry Judy in the end zone, ties the score up at 20. Okay. So here you go. They have this long field goal with Michael Dunn blocking. And they tie the score at 27. Okay. And the Eagles need to get in the field goal range. You know, there's a minute left on the clock. The Eagles need to get in the field goal range.

I want Sequan Barkley returning it in the same way that the Eagles used to put the Sean Jackson back there as well. And maybe this is such a thing that they say, you know what? This is four touches a game for you, five touches a game for you. So we're going to have you do it every time. But certainly in those situations, in those high leverage situations, I want a guy like Sequin who has division, who can break tackles, who knows kind of how to navigate in these situations, who can breed blocks. That's why I'd be interested in. Yeah.

And look, he's, he's done it before. I don't know if he's done it in the pros. Something sticks out to me. I remember, I think they played Ohio State in 2018. He ran the opening kickoff back. So James Franklin was doing it a little bit in college. And obviously, like, Sequin is just such an electric player that I think it's worth at least, like you said, not in every down type of thing.

Because it's like you said, like, if you're a three down player and you're supposed to get, you know, 20, 25 touches a game, whatever it is. Like, I think, I think it's probably smart to do those on the normal plays. But on the other hand, like, if you need it in a big spot, like this guy, I think might be better at this than a lot of guys in the league. Like, you might have a Deshaun level weapon for this specific play with, with Sequin. Just because it's like you said, if it's actually going to be like a running play, it would probably help to have a running back back there, somebody who's used. used to to reading blocks and seeing how those things work out. So, yeah, I wouldn't do it every play.

And I also think the Eagles, it'll be interesting to see because I don't see an obvious option outside of him on the roster to do this and, you know, excel in it. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it is a Paris Campbell. Maybe Covey is really good at it. But it is a nice option to have for sure. Yeah, for the record, you hit it on the head. Sequin Barkley hasn't done it with the Giants, but had two touchdown.

returns on kickoffs at Penn State on 18 total returns. So think about that rate. One in nine returns he was taking to the house. So yeah, Sequin would definitely be a candidate there. We're going to get into some of the rule changes. But before we do that, we'll talk about a rule that wasn't put in place. And that is the Eagles proposal for. So I should say there's not going to be surprise onside kicks anymore, right?

because, you know, that'll be kind of obvious with this kickoff change. But with the Eagles, instead of an on-sides kick, were proposing a fourth and 20. So in that scenario, I'm talking about, you're playing the Browns. Let's say that the Eagles score a touchdown late in the game. They have no timeouts. They're down three.

Instead of going for an on-sides kick, what they would do is they go for a, fourth and 20 from their 20 yard line, right? Not a high percentage play, but if you convert it, you stay on the field. This was not put in place, but my understanding is that this could have some momentum if the kickoff return rule, because the kickoff returns, the changes are on a one-year trial. If that goes well, I can see this going into place next year. I know the Eagles, it's the second year in a row that tried proposing this hasn't been accepted,

but it's getting closer. What were your thoughts on that one? Well, they keep moving it back, too, to try and get it accepted, too. It was fourth and 15 last year. And then they said, all right, well, let's try fourth and 20. They should, fourth and 26 should be their next way. They go about it. Yeah, that'd be a good one.

Yeah, I don't think that's going to happen unless the 2004 packers or 2003 packers are playing defense. But yeah, I do think that's the one weakness for this rule, right? the fact that you have to declare an onside kick and you have to tell the I mean the onside kick is terrible right now Zach yeah like the and I understand why they changed it for for player safety and you know the old rule where you could motion a guy across and um you know have a big running start you know the two bouncing up like that was a pretty heavy collision and obviously it resulted in more recoveries but I understand why they changed it they need to figure out something with this because it's I think it's heavily

advantageous right now to the team that's that's ahead right and I think the NFL they want goofy comebacks at the end of games they want in close games so I do think the fact that you not only have the the onside kick which has been neutered in in past years like you don't even have the element of surprise anymore you can't even do the the pooch kick you can't even you don't even have that option so they do need to figure something else out I don't know do you think that uh what do you think of regardless of whether it passed or not the the fourth and 20 idea of uh of making that you know a chance for a team to come back in the game i like it because it's a football play number one um when you look at the percentage of conversion on on on that play it's a fairly low rate

uh if if you don't convert that that fourth and 20 it's it's similar to recovering non sides kick the game's effectively over right it's far enough back that unless you're getting even if you do convert it unless you're getting like a 60 yard gain or something right you're you still need to kind of put a sustained offensive drive together i like the idea of of having a football play in that situation and if it comes down to making it a phone you know we we joke fourth and 26 but but something a little longer i i like the idea of a football play to use there yeah so it seems it seems like the NFL it didn't pass this year, but it seems like the NFL is going to tell teams like, see, you don't actually

have a chance to come back this year. Like you voted against this. It's going to be really hard for you to make a comeback with this new kickoff rule, which I think is probably going to go well, and then keeping the onside kick rule the same way. So I imagine the competition committee and whoever votes on this is going to say, see, do you want to change this or not? Yeah. Now, before we get into some of the rules that we're put in place and some Jason Kelsey

talk and some leftover. from the Combine, I want to tell you that if you're thinking about these rule changes and you forget to cancel a subscription or you have subscriptions you don't know about, the place to turn is Rocket Money. Do you find that there's subscriptions that you forget about or you pay twice for and you didn't realize it? I certainly do. Rocket Money cancels a subscription for you that's otherwise time consuming. Rocket money will alert you to an increase in subscription price or it will negotiate it for you. Did you know that nearly 75% of people that have subscriptions have forgotten about it? And you can look at all your subscriptions, whether it's streaming services, fitness apps, delivery services.

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That's rocketmoney.com slash p.hly. And once you have those extra dollars saved and you want to go celebrate, there's one thing to do. There's one thing to do. Bo would tell you it's to suck it back with the boys. Have some Miller Light. A lot's changed over. the years. But one thing that hasn't is the great taste of Miller Light. It was the original

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taste of Miller Light. Tastes like Miller Time. They get Miller Light delivered right to your door. Visit millerlight.com slash p.chly birds, or you can find it pretty much anywhere that sells beer. Celebrate responsibly Miller Brewing Company, Milwaukee, Wisconsin, 96 calories per 12 ounces. So, as is often the case, when I'm in. The Bosi is, I'm mapping out the show, I'm thinking how it's going to go.

And then time comes up on me. I'm like the, I'm like the person who, you know, John Mullini has the joke. You write, happy birthday, you do the big H, the big A, the big P on a sign. And all of a sudden, you're trying to fit all the other letters in. So we don't have to go through all the, all the other rules of some of which are kind of like small potatoes, procedural type stuff. some things I did want to point out is that the now you can put two guys on IR designated to return in the preseason this was a good one because in the past guy gets hurt in training camp they go on IR they're on IR they can't come back that year

I did want to ask you as as someone who follows the NFL closely and has covered a lot of NBA trading deadlines your thoughts specifically on pushing the trade deadline back a week. And in theory now having more teams that are kind of in contention or are kind of like making that decision. What did you think of the decision that make it the trade deadline after the week nine game? Well, I think it's good, Zach, just in general, you want teams to have more clarity. You want teams to be, you basically want more sellers is what you want. You want more teams and say, all right, we're out of it this year. We are willing to, you know, sell some of our sell high on some of our better players or maybe expiring contracts or whatever, go to a contender,

those type of things. So I'm for it. I still think the NFL, I don't know, I don't know exactly how they do it. Maybe the amount of wheeling and dealing in the NBA is too much, but I would like to see more high profile NFL trades, especially because like in the NFL, in the NBA, you're not really seeing this as much anymore. You know, these first round picks that are just, you know, like the, the Panthers gave to the Bears last year, hey, you have our first round pick next year. That doesn't happen in the NBA, like an unprotected top pick.

I would like to see more of that. That's fun, right? And I think, especially with the fact that you can build your team through the draft, through the middle rounds of the draft, even, there are more ways to go about this. But I am for that.

I think, was that a Howie proposal as well? That one was actually, that was the Steelers. I think the Eagles were interested in pushing it back to, week 10. So one week later, the Eagles were with a few other teams pushing it back to week 10. So they kind of compromised and went with the week nine trade deadline. I think for the reasons you mentioned, it's good to push it back. I want to see more trades in the NFL. One thing,

you know, it's a sentiment that Bo and I talked about last week and when we kind of talked about some of these trades trading at the deadline compared to trading during the all season. And I heard this at the owners meetings talking to people is sometimes you can get more value. you when you make those trade deadline deals for two reasons. Like GMs aren't attached to the draft picks as much, right? You haven't gone in the combine. You haven't always started scouting these guys. You know, if you're doing your mock draft now and you and I are going to talk draft later this week.

But you know all the prospects now much better than you did back in October or November. And then also teams are going for it. It's the reason why you see some of these NBA trades that, you know, that, and you mentioned obviously like the deal for, well, there was a Bradley Chubb trade in the NFL. Teams have aspirations that one guy can kind of put you over the edge, and that's when draft picks get moved. So I'm definitely in favor of that. I did want to ask you, too, we don't have to go through all the rules, but one thing that I like, I'm curious if, if you agree, is the third replay challenge is now available following one successful challenge.

So it used to be such that you had to nail both those challenges to get the third. Now you only have to nail one. What do you think of that? I'm not sure if I'm for that. I don't know. Replay slows the game down. I get it. You want to get all the calls right.

But there is an element of like, are you taking away from the entertainment here and in replays? I do think the NFL generally does a better job with replays than the other sport. and obviously because there are fewer plays and possession of the ball matters so much, I would argue that challenges in the NFL matter more than in other sports. But yeah, I could take or leave this one, I would say. So I do have some leftover thoughts from the owner's meetings. But before we get into that, you wanted to ask some Jason Kelsey questions.

And I think every day it's kind of a good day to talk Jason Kelsey on this show. So let's hear. Yeah. So there was a piece this morning by, by Andrew Marchand, and he was talking about Kelsey's media free agency. And it was like, the gist of it is that ESPN is looking really hard at him, but he has a bunch of other suitors. Like he might replace Robert Griffin on Monday Night Countdown or whatever that is now.

But CBS wants him, Amazon Prime wants him. It's the only place that he did not list that, uh, that I guess seemingly does not want him is Fox. And maybe they do, but they're also paying Tom Brady a billion dollars this year. so maybe that takes him out of it. So we know Jason, he has the podcast and he has Sequin Barclay on today. What do you think, though, is somebody who's been around him and it's somebody who shouted him last year as he was kind of thinking about life after football, once he joins the quote, unquote, mainstream football media,

like where do you think he's destined? Do you think it's a studio show? Do you think it's actually calling games? Like what type of situation do you think he's going to go for? Yeah, this is a great question. And obviously, you know, to kind of, not to inject myself in this, but this time last year, like the spring break for the kids, we were visiting my in-laws down in Florida. And I didn't, I didn't fly back with my family. I flew back. I was down here in the same condo. And I flew back or I flew out to L.A. to spend three days with Jason as he went through the broadcast boot camp as he was trying to figure that out. Right. And so the Fox thing, if you're talking about a studio spot, that's no way. And I don't think that would be as kind of conducive for him from a family.

I think when you talk about the studio show, if it's ESPN and you're in Bristol or you're traveling to a game once a week, right? Or if it's CBS and you're in New York or NBC, I think they're either in Stanford, Connecticut, or in New York. that's obviously more conducive from his suburban Philadelphia home. But I don't think the studio show is the best format for Jason. Unless the NFL changes kind of the studio show format. You know, maybe he can become like a Charles Barkley type. But the reality is when you watch these studio shows in the NFL, it's like six people. everyone gets in leaves like 30 seconds sound bites

and you're it's it's not like where I would want Jason is in one of two roles either in the booth okay which I think he would be you know good at especially over time and especially with like the right play by play guy and I was watching him kind of learn how to get his comments in

between plays he's a really good eye when he's watching the game I think he can put it in relatable terms I use this example in that story. Like he was doing a mock broadcast of a Vikings Colts game and he was actually

analyzing the technique that the Colts player used to strip the ball. And he was saying like this is the way Nick Siriani teaches it but it was like it was really informative for the viewer and he has

that personality. Where I frankly think he'd be best is and I'm not saying create a show for Kelsey, but almost like, you know, like the, the, uh, the Manning cast or, you know, you're seeing college football, like the coaches watching the game. Um, I think if, if, if you had Jason sitting around like in a living room type setting or in a bar room type setting, just talking about what's going on, not necessarily within the structure of a play by play, but telling stories, making jokes. Uh, I think that'd be pretty good.

agree with you on all those points. I think the point about the Fox and CBS studio shows, they are, you won't say it, I'm going to say it, they are awful. That's the worst product going. It's like you said,

there's a million people. There are these quick sound bites that are just complete surface level analysis. The fake laughing has been out of control for two decades. So get rid of those. I would want him on, yeah, like you said, maybe in his own role,

or if you're going to do something more traditional and this could be at ESPN, it could be at Amazon Prime, it could be at NBC. I would like him in a stadium interacting with people. And I think, you know, it depends.

Whether, I think he could do the, you know, just straight announcing, you know, the play by play or the color commentator. I think he could take on that role. He's obviously very smart. I think some of the best color commentators, frankly, have an understanding. of what offensive line play is like

and the ability to watch that in real time is important. But if he wants, like just interacting with people, that's his gift to me. Like I know it's not exactly going to be chugging a million beers at the Bill's tailgate, but maybe it's with people

who are chugging a million beers at the Eagles. Like you're at the Bill's tailgate. Can you imagine him at like an Eagles tailgate or kind of showing like you said, whether it's the Manning cast or just like a different element of, you know, an NFL game day, that type of thing. And then maybe he just turns into an analyst after it's over.

But I certainly would not want him in a studio. I think that is my main point. I think he could do pretty much anything else. But man, just like don't be sitting next to Terry Bradshaw or, you know, Boomer O'Syerson in a studio. I think, I think he has more to offer than that. I hear you there.

I've heard, I've heard that pitch, you know, especially during the playoffs this year when he was going around. He was at the Bill's game, right? And I, I, you know, they should make a reality show of just Jason Kelsey going to these tailgates on on Sunday.

And clearly that'd be fun to watch. The one thing is I, and look, far before for me to give Jason any advice. Like he's, he's handled this better. I can take some advice from him, right? I don't, for Jason's purposes and for the viewer's purposes, I don't, I hope Jason becomes or does not become a caricature in that sense. Like he's a really smart guy who he has he has like he's obviously like fun to be around. And you don't like you should lead into how much fun he is.

But also you don't want him just to be like the, the, you know, the guy who's, who's, you know, jumping off off tables or or jumping on the burning tables all the time. Like I want to hear him. I want to hear him talk and tell stories and like, you know, be insightful. because I think he has a lot to offer in that regard. And I wouldn't want to limit him in terms of like being a caricature of himself. I get that. I get that. Maybe there's a way to do both.

You know, maybe there's a way to, you know, have him in that kind of natural element, but talking about football and doing it in a traditional way. Anyway, I'm sure he'll be really successful regardless of whatever path he chooses. And I understand why he's kind of the most coveted free agent. Like he's going to be great at it, I imagine. Now, now we have two more days here where we can kind of get into some of, you kind of the leftover items from the owner's meetings. But before we wrap this up, I know you addressed it in your newsletter today.

Was there anything as you watched, as you watched Nick Siriani, as you watched Jeffrey Lurie yesterday, that particularly struck you? Yeah, I mean, I think you're more of an expert on the state of the union addresses. is like, I don't have the recall on, on Jeffrey Lurie every year. I think first off, Jeffrey Lurie, for someone who rarely speaks, like you guys said, he is, I think, really good. Like, he answers your question right away. His demeanor is good.

You can't really take anything negative away from his body language. But he also does so diplomatically. Like, it's, he's kind of like a smooth operator up there. I was impressed with that. And to that point, like, there are some things I wish. I'm not saying he was lying to. the media because I don't I don't think that um but you know there are things that I would want more detail on and we just don't have that nobody is privy to that information yet maybe there is going to be

some level of reporting on it and you know exactly like I think my big takeaway I read your story it's the same one you had like he's making it seem like seriani drove the bus on a lot of these changes and he was he was behind the uh the offensive retooling and I think am I wrong but I I I you were there at the combine for this. Hearing Siriani's press conference at that point, it seemed like, man, this doesn't completely add up with what Siriani said at the combine a few weeks ago.

Like, like this quote, Lurie said yesterday stood out to me. The things with Nick that were really impressive were wanting to truly improve the ingredients of the offense, truly improve who was going to lead the offense, and the direction it would go. He wanted to be much more innovative and much more dynamic.

I don't know. It seemed like Nick Siriani was a little more defiant about that. And look, you know, maybe you take a grain of salt from these press conferences, but it did seem like a slightly different message than we got from Siriani at the at the combine a few weeks ago. Yeah, I think it's more like Nick doesn't want to kind of throw away his, his idea of offensive football and like his ideas. And, you know, I mean, I think if he was on the show right now, I would love to have him on. He's got an open invitation. he would probably tell you that they were a top 10 offense, right? And they had the best, you know, third down percentage in Eagles history, right?

And like things like this and that they can get more creative and they can get more innovative. But, I mean, it's it's not as if you're watching the Patriots offense, right? Now, clearly when he's meeting with Jeffrey Lurie a week after the season or a few days after the season and they just lost six or seven games, including the playoffs, you can't say, all right, we're just going to run it back with the same ideas, right? You need to adjust and adapt. Now, how that looks in practice is going to be interesting. Whether it is accurate, as Jeffrey said, that Nick came in with Kellynne Moore. But when I talked about this yesterday, Kellynne Moore is someone who the,

to Jeffrey Lurie already thought highly of. Now Nick has a background with some people who are from that Boise State Tree with Kellyn Moore knows them. I think it's something that he respected. But I do wonder if, you know, if Nick kind of presented what he thought would help his case as opposed to, like, truly thinking that this, this needs to have a radical makeover.

Nonetheless, it is going to look different, right? You don't bring Kellan Moore in to run Nick Siriani's offense. Yeah. So, you know, like, look, I think the actions speak louder than words here, right? Whoever was behind, I think it's important whoever was behind this and kind of, you know, the buy-in, the level of buy-in from Nick Siriani for these changes, you know, how he's going to interact with Kellynne Moore moving forward. But the fact of the matter is that, you know, like the changes weren't made, right? They identified a problem and they are going to go about this pretty differently this season. So we will see how that goes.

And then one more thing. I just thought the answer about Siriani's body language on the sideline was pretty interesting where he talked about. Like I think it was Beau who said this on yesterday's pod where it reminded of the of the Howie answer about James Bradbury, where he was like, look, we acknowledge there was a little bit of a problem there. And Lori, I think, acknowledged he didn't acknowledge it was a problem, but I think he acknowledged that it was a talking point at least, that at least, you know, there is. in his words, a sweet spot that Nick needs to get to. You love his passion,

but also like maybe don't go crazy because the refs are, you know, they're pretty important people. And there is a level of, of discipline you need in those situations. I don't know. I just thought that was kind of interesting.

Yeah. I did think it was, it was accurate for Jeffrey to kind of paint it as, as he did that. You want Nick to be authentic. You don't want him to hold back. but that it could be, that it was a negative at times. And to quote Jeffrey,

I think he recognizes that it, that it could be a little bit counterproductive if he overdoses his own passion, but you don't want to stop where that passion is coming from. So that's, it is kind of finding that sweet spot. I don't think that Jeffrey Lurga was probably thrilled seeing, you know, Nick Siriani

after beating the Chiefs, like Andy Reid, someone who Jeffrey has a world of respect for, like Nick kind of acting the way he did there. So I imagine that there is that sweet spot that Nick needs to find, and especially when it comes to officiating, as Jeffrey would tell you. But yeah, he was kind of honest about Siriani's personality and Jalen Hertz's personality as well.

Yeah. So look, I thought it was good. I enjoy listening to him with talk. to him talk. I wish you would talk more. Honestly, I know you do too. I always enjoy talking Jeffrey. Anytime someone can talk more, I am all in it. But we are not going to talk anymore today because we have a good show coming, a fun show coming tomorrow. It's, it's spring, it's, it's, it's opening day. As our, as we say, one of the best holidays of the year. There's excitement in Philly. And so we're going to have an opening day themed show. And

we can even mix in some of the leftovers from the owner's meeting into that. But until then, make sure you're subscribing to Rich Hoffman's newsletter. It's the best newsletter you're getting any day on Philly Sports. It'll make you laugh. It'll make you think. And it'll bring you up to speed about what's going on. Thanks, Julia. Just put that up on the subscribe button.

And we have two good shows coming up. We'll be back at noon tomorrow. Until then, that's Rich Hoffman. I'm Zach Berman. Thank you to Julia for producing this. Bo will want us to say, as always, we love you. I will say we'll do better tomorrow. Golly like the mayor