PHLY Philadelphia Eagles Podcast - PHLY Eagles Podcast | Jared Verse, Laiatu Latu & the Philadelphia Eagles’ Edge options in the NFL Draft with Diante Lee

Episode Date: April 9, 2024

We know Howie Roseman cares about adding pass rushers at the top of the NFL Draft. With Haason Reddick gone, will that be on the table again? Does Penn State’s Chop Robinson make sense in the second half of round one? Is Laiatu Latu too much of an injury risk? Diante Lee joins Zach and Bo to talk about this year’s prospects on the edge and if they make sense for Vic Fangio’s defense. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hi noon. We roll on. We're going to get to the draft talk at some point, Zach, and we are here to talk about draft. We've got... Today, does Howie Roseman like edges, Zach? What do you think? Oh, yes.

And it's actually, it's my favorite position to watch as well. Really? Yeah, I always look forward to watching edge rushers. And it's interesting this time of year, because it's almost like when you cram for a test, like you've lived with the draft prospects in your head, you know, And then four years later, five years later, you're like, wait, what year was it? But right now, it's like you can randomly recite the Western Michigan Zedrushar and tell you about watching them.

Whereas if I say to you when we do this show together in 2028, what do you remember about Martian Neillan's tape? Underwhelming. Okay. Yeah. But point being, that's kind of the fun thing about draft prep is that I was going back at some old notes. Cramming it all in there. Yeah, I was going back at some old notes. and like for instance because I I admit I fall for edge rusher sometimes and I really like Curtis Weaver coming out of Boise State and then now Curtis Weaver hasn't really been heard of or heard from in the NFL so sometimes you yeah sometimes you cram you fall and then you move on where would you rank Curtis Weaver among Jeff Weaver Jared Weaver and David Weaver well Jeff and Jared had better pro careers so

I would have to go with them. And then David, do you running back, David Weaver? No, I'm referring to David Weaver, the backup big man for wait for his basketball. Yeah, I will go Curtis over him. Also, I just want to point out, after the show, Bo and I are heading over

to the Eagles facility, where Fletcher Cox, who was a great regular guest on our show throughout the season. And more importantly than that, one of the great players in franchise history, is announcing he already announced his retirement. He's holding a retirement press conference.

So we will be there and we will have more on tomorrow's show about what Fletcher says today. But yeah, we're in the draft season, but we do have to give a little shout out of Fletcher Cox. That means there's a bit of a tight timeline on the end of this episode because we've got to get up and go. Yes, yeah, we'll be racing over there to NovaCare. Well, we're going to start with the edges.

In a few minutes, we're going to get to Deonté Lee, our friend who has been with us throughout some of the draft prep seasons in the past, also a participant in everybody's favorite game, spread your wins and fly, I believe I believe I took home that crown in the one with Deontay, but it could have been you.

If the edge rushers blend together to me over the years, and certainly the esoteric games we do blend together as well. Okay, so we will hear from Deonti when he joins us, but until then, what do you want to, like, what's your question for Fletcher Cox? Well,

I've spoken about this before, but I would love to hear him talk about it in this setting. The way he's framed it to me is Philadelphia changed his life, right? And so now that he's probably in a reflective mood, I kind of want perspective on how Philadelphia has changed his life. And then also parts of him that might not have been as well known publicly, but we've discussed with him and have written about like an underrated. leadership ability. And, you know, certainly he's not as vocal as Jason Kelsey or Brandon Graham, but one of the,

you know, he was very valuable behind the scenes. Well said. All right. I look forward to getting to hear from Fletcher Cox and telling everybody about what we heard tomorrow. Before we hear from Deontale, let's talk sort of big picture here because we know that the Eagles care about this position. We have talked about, I think it would probably be an odd use of resources for them to

have traded Hassan Reddick and then going back and drafting a guy in the first round. But you and I were talking about it in the call it the break room or whatever it is over there. I mean, I'm going through this group last night. I mean, you really got to squint. It is a pretty underwhelming. And I don't like, I don't really ever like the framing of this as a bad class of this or a good class of that. Like, go find the players. Like, let's not make excuses.

But, you know, I'm looking for the guys. And I found it pretty hard once you got past. like the first four guys. Yeah, I'm, I'm with you there. I actually disagree on, on, like, the idea that it would be an odd use of resources because of the contract and, like, the fact that you need edge rushers. And they only have two guys under contract beyond this season, Nolan Smith and Bryce Huff.

But for the reason you mentioned, like, I wouldn't force taking an edge rusher because it's the edge rushing spot. And we'll talk about this with Yante. There are years, I think, two years ago, when you had Trayvon Walker and Aidan Hutchinson and Kvon Tibido in the top five. And this year, we... I remember talking to Deontay about that, actually. I think he was correctly, Trayvon Walker skeptical.

Well, he had a decent year last year, though. Trayvon. Is decent what you want from the first pick of the draft? True, true. But, yeah, this year, I don't love the top guys outside of Dallas Turner, who I really like. We talked about that. But then you get past that,

and you get the day two and day three, and you're really talking yourself into it. It's just not a great class. And actually, when we talk about Chob Robinson, I'll mention you see some other guys on film when you watch these players. You're like, ooh, next year it looks really intriguing at this position. So, yeah, I don't love this class. And I think for the reasons Fran outlined yesterday,

there are offensive tackles who you would get a 22, who in other years would go in the top 10. There are edge rushers this year who might go early on, who in other years would go second round, third round, because they'd be like the seventh or eighth best edge rusher where this year they might be like the third, fourth, or fifth best stretcher. Give you some stats on where edge ranks relative to the other positions

over the past couple of years in terms of when those guys are drafted, more picks spent on edge rushers in the first round and any other position, which is not a huge surprise, right? but it's just a tick above offensive tackle in terms of the sample of where the elite players come from. Those initial pro bowlers are all pro players. The median pick for edge guys is 18th overall, which is third behind quarterback and tackle.

Again, not a huge surprise. You don't see a lot of day two elite edge guys, which is not to say you shouldn't use a pick there. There are useful players, but it's actually the lowest rate of elite players of any position drafted in rounds two and three. There are some diamonds in the rough in round four. And also worth noting that in terms of age,

because we're going to talk about this with this class in particular, Jared Verse, going to be 24 as a rookie. Latu, going to be 23. It is the third youngest in terms of where those guys come from 22.2 on the average. There are obviously outliers, but it is also a group where,

unlike tackle, where a lot of them really do come in the top 15, you get sort of elite guys throughout the first round at the edge group. That's good research there. I would also add to that in my experience. I'm curious if you disagree with this. It's the position where you find the most tension, if you will, between like traits and production.

Because there are other positions. Like if a receiver can't run, then you're not saying we're going to take a first round receiver, runs like a four or seven right um and same thing with at corner at edge rusher you see some guys who just athletically are off the charts yeah and they don't have the sack production but you're like you can't coach this and then you see some guys too who just have great sack production but you're like well the athletic testing isn't here but sacks translate uh and so i think for instance of deniel hunter who was a third round pick uh coming out of lSU who only had like five sacks or they're about

during his college career. He gets the NFL and he's a star. And then you have other guys. You know, Derek Barnett is someone who, now, Burnett was solid. But Barnett broke Reggie White's sack record at Tennessee. You look at, you look at his athletic numbers coming out and they don't jump off the screen,

but he's the number 14th pick in the draft because he can get to the quarterback. So I think it's the position where I find the most tension between, all right, these are the traits and the athletic testing, and then this is what you see on film. I think that's right. I also think that DeNeal Hunter is sort of like a Jordan Milata level outlier in terms of that low level of production. I mean, so his, I have the whole list of elite edge rushers over the past 12 years.

His highest sacks in a season was three, right? The next guy is Chandler Jones, who had four and a half, but he was more of a different type of player, defensive tackle. Yeah, Syracuse didn't use him well. In college. And after that, and there's also Zigianza, who was in. also a different story. After that, it's like, if you don't have at least six sacks in a season, then like you would almost be crossed off the list. Now, Daniel Hunter fell to the third round for reason. And it also says a lot about his physical tools that he went that high, given the

lack of production. He also only played three years. And so we're talking about underclassmen. But in this class in particular, I'm excited to ask Deonté about like the, you call attention, but the blending of what you see when you're watching versus the profile of the player and how do you sort of enmesh the two and figure out how you're going to stack guys. That's a good point. And Josh Sweat, he was what, like a six sack guy or thereabouts at Florida State, but this is especially relevant this year and we'll get to it with Chop Robinson at Penn State, who doesn't have prolific sack numbers, but you look at the athletic testing.

And you're like, there aren't that many guys in the world who can move like this at that size. Yeah, I find it more pronounced at edge rusher than at any other position because some positions you just have like hard line. They need to run like, you know, you're not going to have a four, six corner like I said. But you can have an edge rusher who runs like four seven, four eight, who might not have long arms, but he shows that he can get to the quarterback. Interesting super chat from Mr. Rudy Poo, who says we give Nolan Smith a lot of flack, but the same. same guys slandering him, maybe a little bit harsh, are wanting Chop Robinson from Penn State. No predict the combine. I'm confused, fellas enlighten me.

Yeah. I think there is an important distinction between the two of them. One being that Chop Robinson did not play four years in college, right? And you could project that if he had another season at Penn State, he would be more productive. He had five and a half sacks as a high, which is more than Nolan Smith ever had. Now, you can tell me that for this specific Eagles team, you don't feel comfortable making that bet at 22. When you have a guy like Nolan Smith, maybe that's duplicative.

I think that's probably fair. Like I would not use the 22nd overall pick in this draft on Chop Robinson, but I think there are reasons to be more optimistic about him as a prospect than Nolan Smith because of the profile. So I actually disagree. He also didn't test quite as well. Yeah. I loved Nolan Smith coming out last year. We had that debate quite a bit.

I thought the Eagles, you know, I thought number 10 would have been a good spot for him. Nolan Smith, I rationalized the lack of production. Like we've spoken about the Georgia thing. Also, he missed a lot of games as a senior because of an injury. You look at the production early on his senior year and the pressure in the quarterback hits. You also look at the different ways he was used at Georgia where, you know, when you watch Penn State, chop Robinson. Chopper Robinson doesn't really play the run.

Like Chopper Robinson, he goes after the quarterback. And so you would want to see more sack production, but this is also, and I always say, I think sacks matter. That said, you watch like the Ohio State game. Chuck Robinson, Chop Robinson was in the backfield against Kyle McCord quite a bit, but if a quarterback throws the ball away,

it doesn't count as a sack, right? So it is more nuanced there, I suppose. but yeah, you would like to see more SAC production. Do you like Chav Robinson as a prospect? Yeah, I mean, I like the athletic testing quite a bit. I like the profile of player. I like the gamble on traits. That said, you just took Nolan.

I don't know if I would love like Nolan Smith and Chop Robinson. I would want a little more certainty there. I do think there is like a chess piece dynamic. But every time I was watching, everything I'll get to it every time I was watching Penn State I kept looking at number 11 Abdul Carter and I'm like wait till next year this guy's gonna be awesome well Sal high school by the way from right over there there you go all right let's do it let's bring in Deontay Lee our friend now Deontay do we have you yes I'm here what's going on fellas how are you thanks for thanks for

joining us always good to see you during draft season I'm doing well man missed you at a miss you at the old the athletic mixer, this combine, man. You know, it was good catching up with you a couple years ago, which you could have done so at the combine this past year. But now I'm doing well. Good to see you guys. Always glad to talk Eagles and talk football in general. Awesome.

Well, we are happy to have you. I want to start with a big picture question, which I think is an important one at Edge specifically, which is when you are evaluating these guys, how do you weigh what you see when you watch on tape, you know, just trusting your eyes versus the pro. of the guy. Like this is a 24 year old, let's use Jared verse as an example, right, who played two years at Albany, you know, then then goes to Florida State. Like, is he just overpowering guys who he's

much bigger than, how do you go about weighing those two things when you're sort of stacking your proverbial board? I would say you start with film always, right? Like you always want to start with the film just to get kind of a feel for how a guy plays. I think as the process goes on, especially once you get to the pro day and combine circuits. Everything from there is just about thresholds athletically, right? I want to see arm length. Do you meet the three cone threshold, which I feel like I almost have to toss out now because nobody does anything but the 40.

Nobody does it. In Indianapolis anymore, right? But when there was a point in time where everybody was participating, I wanted to see guys that, you know, we're sub 7, 2 in the 3 cone. And if you're sub 7 seconds, it's like, all right, that's a bendy guy, right? That's a guy who has great contact balance. somebody who can, you know, work the edge, relentless pressure guy, right? And then from there, you're going to take those thresholds and go back to the film.

And that's where you can kind of start drawing dividing lines between guys, right? So for this year, there was a lot of returning to the film for Laiatu Latu, really to see like, okay, I think he's got the arm length. I love the way that he approaches pass rushing. Let me really spend some time watching him as a run defender. Right? So that way I can kind of draw a line between him and a Jared verse, who is maybe not as good in terms of pass rush plan, but I know he's a dog as a run defender, right? And I want to kind of

weigh what those two things are. And that's just up and down the list, right? Same with Dallas Turner. This was a long conversation last year with our old friends at the athletic when we're talking about like Will Anderson, right, because that's a guy who had a lot of numbers. But if you watch, it's like undersized guy who's not a Von Miller type of rusher, I want to understand whether or not this is just his first step is better than a future accountant's, you know, past set. Right, you know, so I think that there's a lot of that. So I go film threshold athletically in terms of size and speed and explosiveness. And then you go back to the film to kind of create your final tiers.

And I think I like tears a little bit better than ranking. That's kind of the way I've approached it lately. For the viewers who are kind of just catching on to the PHY Eagles show, we should say that Deontay, even though he lives out in Southern California, follows the Eagles quite a bit. Grew up an Eagles fan, right? And so we can get esoteric about former Eagles edge rushers. And he would know what we're talking about.

But Deonti, the question I want to throw out you, or I should say throw at you. And I'm struggling with it with this year's class. Is edge rusher is such an important position? We know that. Every team can use an edge rusher. It's one of those spots you can never have too much of it. You can tell it to the Eagles. True, true.

but that said, this does not strike me as a particularly good edge rusher class. You know, and you look at, I don't think it says deep. I don't think it says top heavy as some other years when you have guys going in the top five, multiple guys in the top 10. Do you find yourself trying to talk yourself into the edge rushers more this year because it's a premium position or am I overstating the weakness of this year's class? I will go the opposite direction. I think because it's such a premium position,

I have probably found myself drawing a harder line on what I am and am not comfortable with in terms of draft ranges for guys. And for this draft, if you're not like in the top 35, and I think even that's being a little bit generous, it's probably closer to like top 20, top 25, because of the premium one in the position,

you're probably not going to be leaving with the guy at this position that you're going to feel like has pro bowl potential or consistent potential, right? Like if we're going to use a Daniel Hunter, or Jonathan Grenard, maybe as like a baseline of a pass rusher that even if he's not an all-star player you're happy with because he's getting consistent production. I don't know if you're finding that guy after the top 20 to 25 picks.

Yeah, I think that sort of seems like, hey, and because of that relative weakness, those guys will get pushed up the board because of the position. So when it comes to that, let's go through those top guys because it sort of seems to us like, you know, maybe there's four guys in conversation for the first round. Let's start with Latu, Leatu, Latu from UCLA, started at Washington. That's a medically retire. Then he comes back and lights it up for the Bruins. To me, look like, I mean, he looks awesome on tape.

We have no way of knowing the medicals, how that stuff will check out. How did he look to you? I love the pass rush plan, right? That's one thing that sticks out on tape, especially in comparison with the other guys in this class, is from a hand-fighting perspective, from knowing how to, work different angles from being able to work inside and out. I think that he's probably the most complete pass rusher that we have in this class. Tall guy, long arms, pretty good athleticism. I think all those explosiveness and speed scores are at about baseline for what you want in an

edge rusher, especially a taller guy. So I think that there's a lot to be happy with. Again, if there's somebody I am going to bet on to be consistent year in and year out, assuming that the medicals are fine, like you mentioned, I think that that's a guy I would take a chance on. and a better run defender, I think, that I gave him credit for when I first started going through these guys. I thought that he would lean a little bit more on the Chop Robinson side. You know, I heard you guys kind of discussing him earlier. And I went back to his film. And I saw a lot more competitiveness.

You know, I don't think he's going to walk in and be a Will Anderson and be setting edges, you know, like he's a 10-year vet from day one. But I do think that this is a guy that can be league average or better as a run defender. And you see all the potential in the world for him as a pass rusher because it's, It's not just being a first step guy. It's not just trying to bend the edge. It's having hands. It's having counters, being able to work inside and out and always pushing the pocket. And I think I'm falling more in love with players that profile that way

than the guys who are maybe kind of like more one-dimensional, one-note is pass-rushers. So I love him. As far as pure pass-rushers, he's probably my number one. So the opposite end of the spectrum there would be Chop Robinson, like you mentioned, who doesn't have the sack production. but athletically and the traits, it's almost off the charts. How do you kind of rationalize the lack of sack production with what you're seeing when you're watching the athletic testing and just looking at the measurables?

I think, again, it comes back to plan, right? It comes back to down to execution. And I think that guys that are more of your speed rushers, you're bin the edge types, your get off and go types of guys, they're going to wax and way in, I think, in production, right? A, you're playing in a Big Ten. You're probably only going to get so many quality opportunities past rush-wise. But you turn it on the tape and you watch him.

And when it works, when he gets off the ball, you can see where that 40 time comes from, right? You can see where the broad and vertical jumps and all the speed scores and explosive scores come from. And if he gets a beat on a guy where he can bend the edge, he's going to get to your quarterback quickly. The issue is twofold. A, what happens when that doesn't work? And you automatically have to assume coming into the league.

These guys have seen the best speed. rushers that there are in the world. I don't think that he's going to step in and be one of the best speed rushers in the league from day one. So then the concern is, does he have a counter? I don't think that you see a counter in his plan on tape that pops snap after snap game after game, right? That's number one. And then number two, and then this is something that makes him a big issue for me, is what he is as a run defender or what he isn't, I guess I should say, as a run defender, right? Like this isn't Nolan Smith who you guys brought up in reference to him. But Nolan Smith, you watch that guy at the point of attack.

And you could say, you could buy it. You could buy into the fact that even though he's probably sub 240 playing, you know, this is a guy who was going to put his foot down and set an edge or at least compete for it. Right. And that gives you a baseline to build off of when you combine that with his speed. With Chop Robinson, there's so many snaps where he's to the boundary or he's away from a tight end or he's on the side of the field where, you know, his defensive coordinator feels like the ball is not going in the run game so he can just be a pure pass rusher. I'm never in love with guys that step in and I have to feel like they're designated pass rush guys.

And in the context of the Eagles, they just paid a guy to be a designated pass rusher in Bryce Huff, right? And you already have Nolan Smith who you're probably developing to be a designated pass rush guy. So, you know, there's a bit of duplicity in the roster that exists already and I don't think it makes sense to add another guy who's within that type of athletic profile. So for me, in the context of the Eagles, I probably have him, would have him more leaning off the board. And in the context of this class, that's like a late first, early second. If you're taking that guy, you're just betting on the fact that the athletic traits are going to play out in a way that's advantageous for you. But I don't know if I'd be, I don't know if I'd be confident in that if I'm the one running the team. I think all of this comes down to sort of a big picture conversation that we had a little bit with Fran Duffy yesterday about offensive linemen.

And that is like what is teachable versus what is like a, you know, a hard cutoff. And like when it comes to run defense, like if it's the guy's not going to be big enough to get it done, that's one thing. But if you are seeing a guy who's like, you know, the technique is bad or he's not trying hard enough, is that a kind of thing where you feel like if we get him to our coaches and we trust our coaches, this is a thing that can't improve. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's Tyree Wilson last year, right? You watch a guy who's like, he's really raw, but you look at the size, you look at the tools, and you see just enough on tape where it's like, all right, if we get his hands right, if we get his footwork right, if we get him out of his stance properly, that's a guy who can profile to be a dominant edge rusher potentially. Or even if it's not dominant, a guy who we know we can stick on the edge in a 3-4 or 4-3, and he can go set an edge for us or be disruptive in the backfield. When you look at Chop Robinson, it's not like you're getting a lot of run stuff in TFLs, even as more of like a weak side edge guy where you can say, hey, if we cut him loose, we'll take some chances on maybe, you know, teams cutting back off of this guy or being able to find some explosive plays off of him because we know he's going to go beat a blocker and get TFLs, right?

Like, I don't think that he meets that profile. And when you think about undersized guys and you brought it up, you know, being able to be kind of esoteric about old edge rushers for the Eagles, I think about Trent Cole coming in as. an undersized guy, and that was a guy whose physical frame A suggested that he could add weight, which he did throughout his career. And you watch the college tape, you watch him early in the league, and you see a guy who on motor, on technique, on effort is making plays or affecting the game in a way that makes you encouraged about what he's going to look like in his prime. When you look at chop Robinson, man, I think there's a lot of projection you would have to take on to say that that's a guy that can be a league average or better run defender.

And that's just not something I'm comfortable with. As you see, is getting more invested in trying to run the ball to get teams out of these two high shells. That's not a guy I think that fits perfectly in today's defensive meta. So I know we're talking edge rusher specifically, but I do want to open this up big picture with you. Given the context of what we're talking about, do you think and what you know about the Eagles, what you know about this year's draft, do you think edge rusher should be in play for the Eagles 22 at number 22 or do or do you think they're they're better off drafting a different position there I kind of look at it as two pathways right it all depends on what's available I think that one of

one of an edge and one of a corner is eventually going to slide because this is a draft that's so heavy on tackles so heavy on wide receivers and it's going to be so quarterback centric in the top 10 right so I think that if you're howie you're probably lining up scenarios of hey are we going to be dealing with Nate Wiggins versus Laotu Latsu debate. And I think if it's one of those two, you probably lean edge, right? Now, if the edge rusher is more of the chop robinson's, go and then the next tier of guys behind that, and maybe there's a Kool-Aid McKinstree available instead, let's say that all the corners and edge rushers end up in the first round.

I would rather go Kool-Aid there and say, all right, we've got our contingency for James Bradbury. This is a guy who maybe is not an all-star athletically, but we might be able to drop him in the slot if we want to play Chauncey Gardner Johnson Deep the way that we had him the last time he was here. So that's something to me that I would have an eye on. You know, in the amazing scenario, and I don't think this is happening at all, or like a Cooper DeGine slips. That's the guy that's like you've got to sprint to the table because he's so versatile as the defensive back.

And you know that that's a major need still is building those contingency plans. And, you know, just building quality depth and a guy who has a high ceiling, both on the perimeter as a corner and potentially as a safety. So I think it's like a multiple scenarios thing where it's like what tier of edge is available, what tier of corner is available. If you can get those top Jaredverse or lie to lot two guys, then I would take that. Anything else, I'm probably looking corner or trading back and maybe trying to add some draft capital. I like that. Last thing on the edges is beyond round one, who are the guys who you sort of, you know, have caught your eye and you have an affinity for if we're talking day two, day three.

So that's where it's kind of interesting, right? Like after day one, I think you're really drafting more for role than you are like for ceiling. So for me, it's like I think that the eagle, if you look at what the Eagles had a lot of trouble with, it was setting edges in the run game. Who knows what this is going to look like with Vigangio in now? But I think if you're looking at the profile of outside backers that he's had at different stops and what's available in Philadelphia, body typewise, it doesn't exactly line up. So that concerns me in a bit in a little bit.

And I will probably look at like a Chris Braswell if you can get him maybe in the third round, who I think is going to step in and be a good run defender. The issue there is that the ceiling, I think, is limited as a pass rusher. But you can probably bring that guy in and play him opposite of sweat and feel like, all right, we can get at least pretty good run defense out of one guy. And that may be free sweat up to be more of a pass rush guy. Jonah Ellis is another high effort guy. maybe he turns into something you can take a chance on him in the third and the fourth right those are the edge guys i will be looking at corners wise it's interesting it's interesting to me because it doesn't seem like there's much of an appensite in philly to change bradbury's role right i don't think that bradbury's very

comfortable playing in the slot which is fair right that's a that's a difference that's a big change for you positionally if you're a defensive back so then there are guys like andrew phillips from kentucky who's a mid-round guy you might be able to drop him in the slot he can play he can play He's not a first round guy. I'm interested to see how the league feels about Kamari Lasseter outside of his pro day, where the 40 times that came out were, you know, some people say 4,6, some people say mid-4-5s. Either way, I don't think that people think of him as a traditional outside corner the way that they did in season. If you can get your hands on a guy like that, that's someone who can be a corner two, maybe,

but you can drop him in the slot, good tackler, guy who can fit the run, use him as a blitzer if you need to. I will be interested in that. And then obviously there's linebacker. I know for me that has to be addressed in this defense. If it's me, I don't know what Hallie Roseman's appetite for doing that is. But I think if a junior Colson is available in the third round and maybe he's not because there just aren't many playable linebackers in this class, you can go get that guy. If he's not there, maybe you get a Peyton Wilson.

If he slips, maybe you get an Edron Cooper. But all those guys at those positions are projects. in my opinion, good athletes, but guys who, I think, similar to tight in on the offensive side of the ball, you might not get return on investment until year three. So maybe you try to take those guys and develop them behind some veterans. But there's not a lot to love in this class after you get outside of like the top 45 on the defensive side of the ball. Well, Deonti Lee, an unbelievable level of expertise that you have brought to the show today. Thank you so much.

And tell us for everybody listening where they can follow you. Thank you, man. I always appreciate coming on right now. I'm freelancing with 33rd team. So if you want to yell at me for a mock draft draft, you can find it there. Definitely want to make sure I finish out this draft cycle, giving you guys content. And then after that, we'll see, man, you know, been looking at some different avenues, some different ways to stay connected to football. But as long as I'll be in the media, you can see me on 33rd team. I'll probably be guesting on the athletic football show in the coming days. You might hear me there in the medium term future. And then we'll see. from there. You can always follow me on Twitter at Deontay Lee FB, and I'll be talking ball with you guys there. Well, awesome. And just so you know, Deonté, the chat is lighting up. We want more Deontes. So you are making a good impression. We appreciate it. Thank you so much. I love you guys, man. Have a good one. Thanks, Deonti. All right, before we get going with the rest of the show, let's talk about the Bet Parks app. Get in the Zone with the Bet Park's sports app. Money is in the moments. And if you listen to what we said yesterday, we'll lean done, you con.

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All right, Zach, did the same exercise that you did yesterday with the tackles looking back at Havie Roseman's draft history? Are there any sort of through lines, any? any proclivities that we might be able to pull off. And it is difficult at edge, I think in part because more than most positions, this is one where you're sort of leaning on the scheme and what the coordinator wants a little bit. I mean, he's drafted 14 guys. Now, some of these are, you know, I'm counting Daniel Tayona Syme.

I'm counting Patrick Johnson's Matt Marcus Smith. There's a little bit of like fluidity and do those guys count as edges. Chip Kelly wanted different than Jim Rossburn. Yeah. Four first round picks, two more on. day two. So he, you know, he takes them early. We know this. This is all general. And there's not a ton now on that continuum of, uh, productivity versus traits. Generally, they have leaned more towards productivity. Now, Josh Sweat is an outlier there. But if you're looking for the general theme,

it is, it is sort of production over trades. Brandon Graham, Derek Barnett, Vinnie Curry, all of those guys, most of the late round guys had some productivity. Um, now Josh Schwett is arguably the best pick of that group based on like the bang for your buck and he was the opposite of that so i think that also tells you they're not dogmatic about that uh there are a couple things where like they don't there it's not like a trend bulky thing where they want guys with 36 inch arms and that's all they want like they'll take short arm guys um and be fine with that um they're not like you know there was a time when it seemed like they were all three cone and and dante brought it up guys like don't run it anymore but they don't it doesn't seem like that's a major deal they've only taken two non

or five guys, but those were both in the six and seventh rounds. Not a huge surprise. I was thinking one thing as I looked at it that maybe is thematic is that at a position where sometimes teams make this gamble, like they have sort of, especially in the first round, like high character guys, guys who they're going to sell you on as like this was a team captain, you know, no trouble off the field or whatever it is. I don't know if that is a just a statistical insignificant thing or if it's a thing that they actually care about at that position, but something to keep in mind.

Yeah, and I think your point about the different coaching is important to know early on in how he's time. He takes Brandon Graham in the first round. He takes Vinny Curry in the second round, but Andy Breed was there. It's a different kind of, you know, there's more voices in the room. You get to the Chip Kelly time where you hear long levers or strong levers, right? They liked Marcus Smith. They like Dionne Lewis coming out.

I'm sorry, Dionne Jordan coming out of Oregon. And then you get to Jim Schwartz, and you're kind of looking for fastballs around the edge, right? And so it's a different type of prospect there. And someone like Josh Sweat is more appealing there. And what does Vic Fangio want? Yeah, that's going to be interesting to see. Like he's, I hate to say he needs good edge rushes for that scheme

because every scheme can use good edge rushers. But you look, when he was in Chicago and he has Cleo Mac, when he was in San Francisco and he has Alden, Smith in Miami before he got hurt last year, General Phillips was was playing well. I think sometimes, you know, like these, these tall, long guys. Now, he does use, he, he does use edge rushers out of the two-point stands, right?

It's not like your hand in the dirt, you know, wide set. So, yeah, I think some of your more prototypical three-four edge rushers might jump out. So in this year's draft, let's say, and I don't know this to be the fact, but but if Jared Verst is is considered more of like a 4-3 guy. Yeah. If Darius Robinson is considered like more of a 4-3 guy, maybe it's not the ideal scheme fit. Now, I don't want to say this without having spoken to Vic Fangio about what he's doing in

Philly yet, right? Too bad. But you think of more of the, and the interesting thing is like Hassan Reddick would seem to make a lot of sense there, but Bryce Huff would seem to make a lot of sense as well. So, yeah, I'm curious to see. I'm a little bit vers, skeptical, Jared Verse. I mean, I just don't, I don't love the profile. Now, I know that this class in particular,

you're going to get older guys because of their transfer rules. But, I don't know, 24 years old, like not a great athlete, winning with power, that's not for me. For the non-sicciccos and the converted sickos, Beau is a noted ageist in the draft. Well, here's the thing, Zach. There have been 31 first round edge rushers who have gone on to be pro bowlers or all pros.

And how many of those 31 do you think were 24 years or older during their rookie season? Two. One. Ziggy Janssa. He was old. He was old. And, you know, that's not a position. That is a position where I think most of the time,

because it's a by nature one-on-one position. Like if you're not showing it early and at a position that the league values so you know it's worth leaving early, I'm going to be pretty skeptical. Yeah, I like Jaredverse. I should say that. I'm not Jaredverse resistant,

but I do think there is like what you see is what you get with him. And I mean, there's some, I really enjoyed watching him. Yeah, like he's really strong. Yeah, the speed, the power is what comes up there. he plays so hard. If the guy exposes his chest, he's going to absolutely run him over.

Yeah. He plays hard. He's been really productive. You know, you hear positive things about the off the field personality. A relatively local, which I always like, went to Albany, he transfers to Farter State, decided to stay this past year. Would have been a first-round pick. How wide is the circumference of relatively local? Yeah, I think I had to look.

I think he's more like Lehigh-Valley-ish area. So I mean this is more of a you question. I mean oh for me well historically. He wouldn't be local when I was at the inquire and that's all you know my local thing always comes back to when I was covering the inquire when I was at the inquire spent seven years there seven amazing years. I had to do a lot on local players especially draft time and we looked at it as our coverage base. So if you're on like you know if you grew up in this area and you remember the all area team in the inquire there it's it's like there. It's like there. It's like there. their coverage base. So it was always the inquirers coverage was how I kind of think about it. So you have Pennsylvania suburbs, you have South Jersey, but you're not really going out to like Lehigh, you know,

in that area. It's like Sequan-Barkley will be a relatively local based on this conversation, but not the inquirers coverage base. So let me pull up the exact hometown of Jaredverse. He is from, well, he grew up in Berwick. so actually that's like Wilkesborough that area so yeah on if you're going up close enough if you're going up 81 you

you hit it there you turnpike to 81 you hit Wilkesboro all right we are going to get to the guys that we sort of like beyond round one in a minute but before we do that let me tell you about FOCO FOCO is a leading manufacturer of sports and entertainment merchandise with a product line that includes apparel accessories toys collectibles novelty items and more it is the best officially like license gear for all sports and fandoms.

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items use the promo code p hly 10 for 10% off and then i want to just tell you about some p hly initiatives be on the lookout at all p hl y dot com under the event calendar for upcoming events including nfl draft updates and golf tournaments uh also i always give a shout out to die hard you should be a die or i i shouldn't say you should i hope you're a diehard member uh we have great opportunities there where premium written content for members at all p hly dot com we're going to have heavy draft content on there. You get 20% off events. You get great merchandise for all teams.

Free shirt when you become a member and a member's only Discord on the PHLY Lounge. So make sure you're doing that. Head over to all p.gly.com and join the best sports fans in the city. Now the word of the Lord came unto Jonah, the son of Amatai, saying, arise. Go to Nineveh, that great city and cry against it.

For their wickedness is come up. before me. But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish, Tarsish, Tarshish, from the presence of the Lord, and went down to Joppa, and he found a ship going to Tarshish, so he paid the fare thereof and went down into it to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the Lord. But the Lord sent out a great wind into the sea, and there was a mighty tempest in the sea so that the ship was like to be broken. Then the mariners were a front of the sea. prayed and cried every man unto his God and cast forth the wares that were in the ship into the sea to lighten it of them. But Jonah was gone down into the signs of the ship, and he lay, and he was fast

asleep. So the shipmaster came to him and said unto him, what meanest thou, O sleeper, arise, call upon thy God. If so be that God will think upon us that we perish not. And they said everyone to his fellow, come and let us cast lots that we may know for whose cause this evil is upon us. So they cast lots and the lot fell upon Jonah. Then said unto them, unto him, tell us, we pray thee for whose cause this evil is upon us. What is thine occupation? And whence comeest thou? What is thy country? And of what people art thou? And he said unto them, I am a Hebrew. And I fear the Lord, the God of heaven, which hath made the sea and the dry land. Then there were men exceedingly afraid and said unto him,

Why hast thou done this? For the men knew that he fled from the presence of the Lord because he had told them. Then said they unto him, what shall we do unto thee that the sea may be calm unto us? For the sea wrought and was tempestuous. And he said unto them, take me up and cast me forth. forth into the sea. So shall the sea be calm unto you? For I know that for my sake this great tempest is upon you. Nevertheless, the men rode hard to bring it to the land, but they could not, for the sea wrought and was tempestuous against them. Wherefore they cried unto the Lord and said,

we beseech thee, O Lord, we beseech thee. Let us not perish for this man's life, and lay not upon us innocent blood, for thou, O Lord, hast done as it pleased thee. So they took up Jonah and cast him into the sea, and the sea ceased from her raging. Then the men feared the Lord exceedingly and offered a sacrifice unto the Lord and made vows. Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah, and Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights. This is the story of Jonah and the fail, it is a story about second chances. It is a story about a forgiving God. If you are like me, you see the echoes and reflections of this story all too clearly.

When the Lord came to Howie Roseman and said, Go forth. Spread Christian to your linebacking core, Roseman disobeyed. Instead, he counted. Christian Ellis to the Waverwire, which brought upon the great storm of a vengeful God. The angry skies threw so many off the boat, Brian Johnson, Sean Desai, Hassan Reddick, lost forever. Howie Roseman, having seen the air of his ways, prayed for penance found in the belly of Jeffrey Lurie, our proverbial whale, protecting him until the moment of opportunity returns.

So it is appropriately that we arrive at the NFL draft. We cannot be blind to the signs sent by the Lord, so we must recognize the deliverance of Jonah. In a draft class full of Ninevean detritus, old guys, unproven guys, Jonah Ellis stands alone. 28 edge rushers were invited to the NFL scouting combine. Here is the list among those of players who will be 22 years or younger as a rookie

and who had at least 10 sacks in a season at a Power 5 school. Dallas Turner. Jonah Ellis. That's it. Is he a touch undersized at 6-2 and an 8th, 248? perhaps, does he make up for that with intensity, violent hands, and the vindictive playing style of someone who has seen his family wronged, time and again? Lord, he does. And so it lands upon the desk of Howie Roseman, excreted from the belly of the whale. Keep in mind, God does not grant

third chances. I'm just thinking about someone who logged on today because of the YouTube algorithm that has the Eagle side shelf options and they have no idea what's going on. This is a bit. A very funny one, a good one, well-written one, about Christian Ellis being waived by the Eagles

when they needed linebacker help. And another member of the Ellis family, Jonah Ellis, who I set the bow in that break room over there before when I was trying to, I said, Bo, I got to admit the day two guy that I really like is Jonah Ellis. And Bo says to me, oh, don't worry. I got a Jonah Ellis thing. I didn't quite know what Bo met by that. Now I do. Well, you also know now that, I mean, knowing that we got to get out of here for the Spletcher Coxling, I mean, time has been ticking. I got to get this in. Yeah, seriously. We didn't have to do the Jared verse Burwick conversation. Yeah.

Jonah Ellis related to Christian Ellis, as you mentioned. And good idea. I mean, if you're talking about day two edge rushers, Deonté mentioned Chris Braswell. That's that. And then you hear, I kind of wanted to like Braswell more than Ellis. I mean,

don't you think this is a chance to write the wrong, Zach? I don't know if it's a chance to write the wrong as much as it's a chance to get a young productive edge rusher who like, I mean, I think Dallas Turner is the best. We spent so much time talking about C.J. Garner Johnson.

Let's write the wrong of. If we didn't have enough dogs on defense last year, let's fix us. How about we just write the wrong of we cut the wrong guy? Let's get his brother. Let's get the right one. Well, Jonah's a different type of player than Christian. But nonetheless, yeah, a member of the Ellis family. And he is, yeah, I like what I see there.

I thought you had had some good notes in there, tad bit undersized. But when you watch him and then you see the production in the PAC 12, you look at the UCLA game in particular that was the game that jumped out to me there's a lot to like with Joan Ellis so he would be the day two guy that jumps to my mind I presume based on

the soliloquy that he's the day two guy for you now unfortunately the the white collar tape part did not make it through the the redo here but that's okay I look more like a druid no that was that that was very well written it was well performed

and yeah it was it was well and I certainly don't mean to deviate from the Jonah Ellis discussion, but is there a day three guy that jumps to mind, or did we want to devote this to, we should, by the way. I do. I like Jonah Ellis. Yes,

yes, yes, so do I. He is the guy who I like on day two. Day through, Austin Booker from Kansas. I signed with the Senior Bowl, flashed,

undersized guy, inexperienced, but, you know, didn't play at Minnesota for a couple years, transferred to Kansas, had a breakout season. Now,

listen, I liked, Kyrin Johnson at the senior ball too as like a guy just watching him but Austin Booker was like in in team drills not just one-on-one's like blowing up plays I liked him

and so that would be a guy on on day three who was interesting to me you know we talk you and I talked about in the break room like Marshawn Neeland I don't see it at all and like the profile it's a guy five years in the Mac and never had more than four and a half sacks what are we doing here four years in Mac rather

Yeah. Not for me. Converted tight end. Yeah. Yeah, the day three guy who I like is Bohamauga. And I know as you would call him an old. He is an old. He'll be 25 in May.

But man, he is, first off, he's fun to watch, plays like his heads on fire, gets after the quarterback, really productive. The athletic testing was there. Maybe it's the Colorado state bias because I'm an instructor at the university. but he is Flex. But he is all he's the like if you're looking for a designated pass rusher if he's there in round four,

round five, I think he makes a lot of sense in terms of like you're looking for fastballs around the edge. Maybe he's not a second contract guy for you. Maybe he's just a rookie contract. But I think Muhammad Kamara gets to the quarterback in the NFL just like he did at Cottrota State. Yeah, this is I mean it's it's sort of what Deonti talked about.

Right. You're talking about just roles here. and if we're talking about undersized guys who can be part of that rotation. Like, I kind of like Brail and Trice from Washington. Yeah, okay. I thought I saw some, some explosiveness in him, and he had a pretty productive last two years at Washington. What are your thoughts on Adisa Isaac?

I was a little bit underwhelmed. Okay. I mean, I loved the story from Dan Pompeii, but I was a little bit overwhelmed. I was also a little overwhelmed by Braswell. Okay. And now it's also, it's hard if you're watching Braswell and Dallas Turner coming off the edge at the same time and being like,

oh, that's the guy I want. but that was just a little I don't know that I would love that use as a late second round pick one of their two picks that would not be my favorite use. I wanted to like Jalen Harrell from Michigan because I kind of liked the profile but

was underwhelmed by the stuff that I watched. Same sort of same goes for Nelson Caesar from Houston. A little bit more than the other guy and then there's one more on here who I wanted to talk about that da da da da da Oh, Eric Watts was an interesting one for me from Yukon. And this is one where it's like, are you, like, he's got a better body type.

And you're almost wondering, like, why is it that he stayed five years at Yukon with that body type? But I thought the way he moved and what he would bring, he's got long arms is more of a maybe day three type, dart to throw. Yeah. In Isaac's case, I was at that Penn State UMass game. He had two and a half sacks that day. But he was going up against UMass's offensive line. I think he can be fine. I love the story.

Didn't test great, but I, yeah, I think he can be fine. It just, it strikes me, and I've said this. I don't see a lot of upside guys after, you know, day one. And then we mentioned Jonah Ellis. I think Jonah Ellis has some upside. But there's, it's not really upside. And then I do want to get to an Ellis thing real quick because I didn't mean to, I certainly didn't mean the short change the bit.

But I said this earlier in the show. that when I watched Penn State, like Abdul Carter who was playing linebacker moved to edge rusher, he jumped out. And I bring that up because like next year is going to be one of these edge rushing classes. Like this year's class was supposed to include or could have included both Ohio State guys.

You know, J.T. T. T. T. T.o Malayo and Jack Sawyer, both of them returned. There were a few other guys who returned this year. The Tennessee guy, James Pierce, he's a really good player. home a guy, McCall was a good player. There's, I think next year's class is going to be really appealing. And I just don't see it as much with this year's edge rushing class.

So I understand it's a spot that the Eagles should always look and you can never have enough. But as we talked about the top of the show and we talked about with Deontay, I think you're kind of pushing the position a little more this year. I don't love the talent in this year's class. Just to circle back because somebody sort of asked about the age stuff, if you even look at the entire sample of these edge rushers, these elite guys, 49 of them. there's only three of them, including Ansa, who were 24 years old as a rookie. The other two, Matt Judon and the fifth, and then Michael Bennett, who was undrafted.

And, like, I know that the calculus is different this year because the guy stayed. I'm not saying you can't draft Jared Verse because it's not just about pro bowl or bust. Like, he plays a role, but it's, like, the draft is really unpredictable. It's about trying to narrow your, like, dispersion, right? and you're better your odds and I just it's it's at this position especially it is not for me so my question for you is somewhere in Moscow Idaho um they they get YouTube they get YouTube in Moscow uh Idaho yes um the uh the Ellis family got sent a YouTube link back in November and they're like okay this is this is a funny bit his name's Christian uh we think he's a good player uh the Eagles shouldn't

have waved him and I like this guy. They see this today. Do they like you even more or are they like, all right, this commitment to the bit is, it's really strong. I think I got a shot of being like the fifth Ellis brother. Okay, okay. You think Luther wants to bring you in and yeah. Yeah, look. I mean, if we can get it in the pHL wide budget, I would love to send you out to Moscow, Idaho and you knock on the Ellis door. I mean, Luther was a real good player in the, in the, in in the league. So you got to make sure that, you know, he's on, he's on board here because you don't want to cross Lutheran a bad way. I certainly don't. No. No doubt about it. All right, let's get out here so we can go wave goodbye to Fletcher Cox. So thank you to Deontay Lee.

We're spitting wisdom with us and giving us all that good stuff on the edge class. Hopefully we'll talk to him again another time soon. Thanks to Julia for putting this all together. Thanks everybody for watching live. That'll do it for this episode. the P.HLY Eagles podcast back tomorrow at noon talking tight ends. So we look forward to that for all of us here at PHLY. Thank you for listening. We'll talk to tomorrow. And as always, peace be with you.