PHLY Philadelphia Eagles Podcast - PHLY Eagles Podcast | Managerial Economics with professor Deniz Selman and Pro Bowl ex-Eagle Brandon Brooks

Episode Date: May 10, 2024

Brandon Brooks was one of the best offensive linemen in the league during his five years with the Philadelphia Eagles and an important player on the Super Bowl champions. Not too shabby. Never content to rest on his laurels, Brooks quickly took on a lot in his post-playing career, enrolling in the Wharton School of Business … where he took a class with our beloved professor Deniz Selman. Today, we reunite them to discuss Brooks’ career, his future in investment banking and how often professor Selman tried to pick his brain about whether a running play was “duo” or not. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

to the PHLY Eagles podcast. One episode coming up. Bo Wolf and Zach Berman here, joined in studio by our favorite professor, Professor Danez, and one of his star students, one of the best offensive linemen in the league over the course of his career,

who has taken on Zach's life philosophy that even when you have reached the heights of your career and like you could just sit back and relax, no, I want to keep working. Brandon Brooks is here. Brandon, how you doing? I'm doing well. Thanks for having me in. Hell of the intro right, but I like that.

Well, yeah, I mean, like, you know, tell us why, I guess, to start with, you are, you have been so, I mean, you are set to graduate, Wharton. Like, I think you said before the show started today, you just got your final, final grade. Like, you're done now. Why not just sort of sit back and let life come at you? Why, why be so aggressive? I've always been a grinder. You know, it's not, you know, done. It's, you know, what's next?

And for me, I had a great career. You know, I couldn't ask for, you know, a better ending to my career, a better city to play in. And, you know, there was more things that I wanted to do. And so where else could I go to, you know, get a great education and meet this great guy right here. I mean, learn from one of the best. And so, yeah, like, even in my last year, you know, obviously I was injured.

You know, I went and took the G-MAD and it's something that I always wanted to do. I always had a passion for business. And, you know, that's just kind of like my calling car. Same thing, you know, when I was playing, you know, just being a grinder, you know, consistent, you know, and being persistent, right? Ooh, I like that. It's actually going to, you is absolutely going to stay. Exactly. So we got a lot to talk about.

I want to, I want to hear. We're going to talk a little bit of football, you know, what's coming up for you. But I do want to start, like, at what point when you were taking DeNiz's class? And this was managerial economics. Is that right? That's what the class is called. Yeah. It's basically a course in microeconomics for first year MBAs.

Rocks for Jocks, right? And it's a mandatory course. So, you know, Brandon didn't seek me out or anything. He was kind of forced into it. But at what point did you realize that your professor was like an eagle sicko? So we actually met for the first time. I was at Park and you had stopped by with your son. And then you reminded me when I was sitting in class and, you know, we kind of hit it off there.

We probably spent just as much time outside of class in your office as I did in class with you. So, you know, we'd always talk, you know, football and, you know, he would give me his breakdowns and, you know, I would, you know, give him my two cents. And, you know, we've been good friends ever since. Are you aware of his cult-like following among Eagles fans in particular playoff scenarios, uh, breakdowns that, that go beyond even what, like, the media provides? But no, his breakdowns are, you know, extremely detailed. He's extremely meticulous and exactly what's, you know, going on. You've seen the charts? Well, I follow him on Twitter, so I get to see, you know. He corrects the NFL.

Not just his charts, but like, some of his rant sometimes as well. So I definitely get to see a little bit of everything. Oh, no. I appreciate that. I was hoping you didn't ever actually read anything. So, all right. And for you, professor, like, did you have to pull any strings to make sure that Brandon was in your class? Oh, it's funny because when they first, I knew Brandon was going to be a first year student.

And I teach one quarter of the first year. You know, there are 12 cohorts. And I teach three of the sections or four, I guess one third. of it because I teach four of this. I thought four of the year that Brandon was the first year. And so there was a one in three chance. He was going to be in my class. And being the professional that I am, you know, I didn't. I can even do those out. I didn't, I didn't look up the classes or anything. I had no idea. So first day, there he is. No, I mean, yeah, no, I knew who's going to be there. But, you know, I always kind of look through to see if there are going to be any students I

know from there are Penn undergrads who come back for the NBA program, who I knew from when they were undergrads and things like that. So I always kind of check to see if there are any students that I know. And so I see this guy's smiling face on the roster sheet. Oh, you see it. There's pictures. Yeah. And I'm just like,

yeah. Otherwise, I would have been like Brandon Brooks. Right. Like that sounds familiar, but I don't know. I don't know who that is. Yeah, no. It was and so this guy comes up to me. So the park thing, that's just embarrassing.

He and Isaac Sayamalu are eating lunch together. And I, and I like a total loser. I'm on my bike. and I like just a complete loser I interrupt their lunch Isaac had just been named the starting left guard like I remember like he'd just been named

this was like during training camp maybe and thank you for politely pretending like you remember this by the way probably completely insignificant to you and I and I come up and I'm just like hey like the starting guards And that was, it was like the biggest loser moment. And I thought that that would be like something that this guy doesn't need compliments, right?

But Isaac Siamalu won that job in a way that it wasn't clear he was going to. Like I thought that would be like something that he would like to hear. Complete nonsense. Like what the hell? Like why these guys just want to have their lunch? Unbelievable. I've gotten that look for my example. So embarrassing.

And I don't know why I'm telling the story. But it was just like very embarrassing. And then I quietly went away and hoped that I would never see them either ever again because it was so embarrassing. And then Brandon comes up to me, first day at class. I don't know if you remember this. Comes up to me, shakes my hand, says, hi, my name's Brandon. I played sports for 11 years. So I have an unconventional background.

And, you know, like, you know, et cetera. And now I'm thinking, okay, I have a couple of options. I can say, oh, nice to meet you. Pretend I don't know who he is. Do even something stupid or like, oh, like, what sports did you play or something, right? Wait, how much time had passed between these two events? When did Isaac Samolu win the guard position? When was the, how many years ago?

It was the first time or the second time? So 2017 he wanted, then he lost that. This was the later time. So then 2019 that would have been. Yeah, so it had been like, you know, what, three, four years? And so I So I'm so then I'm just like So what do I say like do I say

What sport did you play or something stupid like that? And then I'm like I can't get away with that Like he's gonna learn that I like you know on Twitter and all this And so I and then I'm like So do I go the opposite way and say You know I've watched every single snap you ever played on film like five times and taking notes on on every single one? Probably the one that far Yeah, no. And I'm like, no, that's too far too. That's too far too. That's even worse than like, hey, the starting guards. Yeah. And so. And so instead I said, dude, I know who you are. Like, I've had season tickets for 20 years. Like, I know who you are or whatever. Left it at that. Later, in office hours and stuff, like, he learned more about, you know, like how into the, you know, like, I was just like, man, like, maybe I can. you know, like, like, maybe we, maybe he'll want to talk some football, you know?

Like that would be fun for, for me at least. But yeah, anyway, I'll stop talking. Sorry. Before I embarrass myself more. So I can't. It's so funny. And I do like, he's got off.

He's got so much dopamine going. And I like that Zach is right because whatever look Isaac gave you when you said that, the good news is it's probably the exact same look he gave to everybody else who ever tried to ask him a question in the locker room. Like Isaac's got no time. Literally if I said give a minute. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, do you have a minute? And that's the look I get from Isaac.

I see, I see. Okay. No, I don't have a minute. He's in that. Well, that's, I wrote a story. I did a profile on Isaac before the, what was it, the 20, 21 playoffs. Yeah. 2020, yeah.

And this starts as like, you know, I've talked to his family. I've talked to other, like his teammates. I'm like, hey, Isaac, like, I'm writing a story on you. I don't want to bother you. He goes, unfortunately, that's all you guys do. Yeah. That's true. That's what we do.

Anyway, so what has the past two years been like for you, Brandon? You know, it's definitely been an adjustment, right? Like the type of peer, like the whole, I don't know, like the career itself was different. And so, you know, I had to come in. It's like being a rookie all over again. You got to go in with a growth mindset where it's like, no matter what you did before. One, you got to humble yourself. Two, you're here to learn.

So you got to put your ego to the side, right? So, you know, the reason I introduced myself was because I knew like this is probably, especially one of, for your first years, is one of the tougher classes, you know, that you taught. And so I wanted to kind of set up like office hours to go in and like, you know, get some extra help and, you know, learn, you know, as much as I could.

But, you know, the two years has been a phenomenal experience. You know, like you said, I'll graduate next Sunday, double majored in accounting and business analytics. Oh, major here, here. Yeah, so, you know, I wanted to get as much, um, quant, experience and work that I could. So, you know, like I was saying earlier, too, July 8th, I'll go and start, you know, at Goldman Sachs when invested banking in the TMT group, Tech Media Telecom. And so I was there, you know, 10 weeks over the summer.

And you really come out of that. One, obviously, wanting to get the return offer. But then, two, you know what you don't know. And so Ward is done to be a super technical school. Interesting. Super, you know, math-based. And, you know, as far as, you know, being able to talk to people, being able to relate. you know, the soft skills side.

I think whether you like it or not, football forces you into that because, you know, you guys are always around. And some guys, hey, like, I think I could probably fell into this a little bit. I probably came out of my shell as I got older, but, you know, I was just focused on my craft. I was just focused on being a good football player.

And, like, that was kind of similar to, you know, kind of when I learned in the summer, right? And so coming out of summer, I realized I needed to continue to up my technical skills. And so that was kind of my two years, my first year I was super locked in like I didn't you know go out I didn't party I didn't do anything like that just you know focus on school second year you realize that you know you're ready to go back to something where basically I was working six seven days a week like maybe 16 hours a day

and so like let me like you know enjoy life a little bit before I go back I mean you go ahead give your thing yeah well it's it's a part of life right like you're not the first you're not the last you're going to learn a ton you get a ton of reps it's just like football if you're looking it that way. Sure. The more reps, the better you are outlier, the 10,000 hour rule. Same thing. Brendan and I are speaking the same language here. Oh, absolutely. I was just going to say, I was just going to say, you and Zach are... We get confused for each other a lot, actually. You can't tell? I mean, if I was just reading a transcript and I couldn't see who was talking,

like, you got, you and Zach, I have exactly the same life philosophy on this. Zach has said on the show that he would like to die the day after he retires. like he's like he's like the perfect light well I mean he didn't say it in that order but but he said the perfect play is that he retires to work until he dies

yeah I want to work until I die but you know I thought you know what I said is equivalent to that and I don't want to retire I just want to keep working exactly that's the thing and so and so you know we teach this thing in our classes we didn't do this in the class you took with me

but this this idea of the supply, labor supply theory, right? So the idea is like there are two things. There's leisure, which is like what you do with your time, and then there's money, consumption, whatever, like things you need money for. And those are supposed to be a trade-off, right? It's like the trade-off is like you like leisure and you like money, and so you trade off how much you work, because the more you work, the more money you make, and then the less you work, the less money you have, but the more leisure time you have. And so it's a trade-off for most people. And the theory is, the higher wages get, the more people want to work, right?

The one exception to this, it's called the backward bending labor supply, is that once you have enough money, you're supposed to want to enjoy your leisure, right? Like, you're supposed to be like, okay, have enough money now, and now I'm going to use the rest of my time to just enjoy my time. I feel like, for both of you, this is true, that classic tradeoff doesn't exist. Like, you both like working so much that it doesn't matter how much money you're making. You're working because you like work. Well, to that point, and I completely understand that.

And that was a question that I got not just in school, but even at Goldman, like, basically, like, like, is this a family? Is this a family show? Yeah. No. No. No. They were like, yeah, what the fuck are you doing? Like, why are you, like, coming?

Like, there's easier ways to make money than an investor back here, right? Right. And for me, like, I was blessed and fortunate enough to do something I loved, like, all my life. And I got to do it for a living. And so as I pivoted or navigated into my, you know, next career, people probably won't believe me, but like, I enjoyed investment banking, man. Like, I enjoy it. Like, I've always enjoyed, like, the grind, the stuff that is hard, the stuff that is tough. And so it was just kind of a natural, you know, decision for me or easier decision for me to, you know, get into something like that.

Because it came down to investment banking or trading. I needed something that, you know, I don't think anything will ever be as high stakes, you know, high stress, high visibility, like, you know, professional sports. But I needed something that was close to that, man. And like, this was this was close to it. Don't get me wrong. Like, you know, it is, you know, it has its ups and downs. It has its challenges. Like, it definitely has this moments where it's tough.

But like, I don't know, man. It just felt like holding me. Like, I felt most comfortable doing something in that. And so that's kind of, you know, how I got here. Yeah, like, you know, my last year, like I said, right, got injured and, you know, studied for the GMAT. And the reason I announced my retirement the second week after the season was because I had to take the GMAT the first week of the season. Okay. Because they wanted me to announce my retirement the first week.

But I was like, yeah, I got to take the GMAT or whatever. One of the most stressful situations in my life because they don't tell you when you go to the testing center that it's tests for like everyone, right? GMAT, GEMAT, GEMC, like LSAT, MCAT, nursing exams, like the whole nine. So you walk in. And it's like the DMV, like all the chairs are facing forward. and people are just on edge like going crazy. So as you walk out here, you're just like, oh. And so, but no, I mean, it just was a, you know,

something that I had thought about for a long time. And, you know, when it was time, I've never been to one to just kind of just, you know, sit and chill. Like, even when I got injured, like, you know, I tried to come back better than I was, you know, before I got injured. So I've always just kind of had a grinder, you know,

mindset. And one thing I realize is a lot of people take their compassion. editors and something they're good at, but do you compete in everything you do even when you're not good? And so for me, it was like, I completely knew at this. Like there's, you know, obviously, you know, right, kids at Wharton who basically grew up in this, you know, the finance game like I did in football. But for me, I love to compete. And so once I, you know, set my sights on something, it doesn't matter to me, like, you know,

how big the amount is, how much time I have to put in because the way I look at it is, like, I'm here to compete. And so whatever it takes for me to be able to compete at the highest level, like, that is for me. Are you at the point now where your peers just look at you as Brandon, the investment banker, as opposed to Brandon, the former football player? And is it deliberate that you don't want to leverage your name, that you're doing something specific to a new skill set? It's hard to, you know, be the size and be like, oh, you know, I'm just Brandon. Yeah, you know what I mean?

So it's always a part of you. And I think for a long time, I kind of wanted to get away from that to try to, you know, separate like, hey, that was my past career. And now, like, hey, look, like, I want to warden. Hey, like, I want to go out with sacks. But, like, it'll always be tied to me. And so at a certain point, you got to realize, like, that's part of the advantage, right? So if you're going to, like, pitch to a client, like, on some business, like,

part of getting them to the door may be the fact that I did play football, right? And so, like, you got to use what you have to get the job back. Like, oh, that's interesting. That reminds me at the time I went to my third straight, Pro Bowl. You're kind of like, just flex a little bit. Like other people can relate. But the market doesn't care who you are, though, right?

That's the reality of it, right? The market itself doesn't care, but it's like, hey, like, if we're selling the same services, a lot of times people wanted to do business with people who they like and having an interesting story may be the difference between you getting in the door and you're not getting in the door. That's a valid point. And so, like, that in the self, you got to, you know, take on the chin. And it's also like having the warden and Goldman on the resume as well, no matter if somebody it was like, oh, like, you know, you're a dumb jock or whatever.

Like, you can't deny Wharton or Goldman Sachs, right? Because, like, you know, I'll hear stuff where it's like, oh, you only want to Wharton because you play in a Philly, but then why did I also get into Goldman Sachs, right? And so, like, putting those two together, you can say what you. Nobody gets into Wharton on unfair pretenses at all. That's never happened before. I knew that I've come up from you. You got to combine the two, right?

So it's just like, hey, man. It's made the record state that I said nothing. You know, you just, it's a part of you, man. And so, like, it'll never be a situation where, like, the two don't go hand in hand, man. Brandon was proposing, like, we should have a wear your Super Bowl ring to class day, you know? And I was like, come on, man. Like, you know, that's not. What type of person would I do you just to wear the ring in class?

Like, hey, guys, like, look at me. Like, yo. But you said when we were, when we were out there before, like, first year, like, you were working probably hard. Everybody else is sort of like, there's, they have the 10,000 hours of experience that you were talking about. And so it's a bit of a refresher. You're like grinding and you're like, oh, you're looking around like, oh, I'm working harder than everybody. Yeah, but you know, after the two years, man, I just realized that if you say you went

to Penn undergrad, you major in finance, right? You got three to four years of work experience in finance. And then you're coming back to basically, you know, learn the graduate level of this. You probably kind of to a certain degree I've already gotten a graduate level at your job. And so you're coming back, one, you know, partly for kind of a vacation, like not vacation, but it takes them to stress off of what you were doing, you know, to kind of get the network and meet different people.

And so like, you know, for a lot of people, like maybe you don't have to work as hard, which is fine. But for me, I was completely new. You know, I majored in psychology and undergrad. And then I had 10 years of, you know, non-finance experience, right, playing ball. And so it was starting off from the bottom. And in order to, you know, to rise, right, you got to make sure your building blocks and fundamentals are where they need to be.

And it's no different than like, you know, with stout doing meat blocks, right? Like, you can know what it is, but like, if you don't know how to do it correctly every time, you're going to get to the game and like, it's going to be the one time that matters where you do it wrong. And so for me, it's just like practicing enough, not to where I get it right, but practicing enough to where I can't get it wrong as I build up. So that's what it was for me.

And I can confirm that this is not just all talk. I mean, Brandon, I'll say this so you don't have to. I mean, Brandon showed a level of professionalism and dedication taking my class. that is rare for a Wharton first-year MBA student. My door is always open. I have weekly office hours. I teach about 300 students at once in a semester. Flex.

And there aren't a lot of students come to office hours. Just to be real. I mean, you know, like they're busy with recruiting. They're busy with other things, et cetera. And as Brandon said, like, he would come to office hours. He did introduce himself and said that, like, he was going to come in and ask for more guidance because he hasn't taken any class. and however many many years.

Did you think I was lying the first? I said it. No, no. I believed you, but just the fact that you came up and said that is rare. You know what I mean? Like that's something that I'm always willing to have students do. And I'm always like, guys, come to Oshowers, you know, because I'm sitting there anyway, right? And Brandon actually did.

And he would make sure that he could do the problem himself on the board before he left. It wasn't like just me showing him. He's like, here, give me the pen. Like, let me do it. And I was like, this level of professionalism is something that I shouldn't be surprised by, maybe? Because, and maybe I should ask you, like, how much of what you learned playing for Stout, playing in the NFL, do you think carried over to that? 100%, to be honest. And so, Ward had this through the executive program, actually, where they had current and former NFL players maybe two or three weeks ago, where guys came in and, you know, kind of were, you know, kind of where, you know,

either trying to figure out what's next or are into that next phase of their life. And a similar question, you know, kind of popped up. And I think because we do something that is so niche where it's like, you can't go into the board room, be like, well, the safety is coming down here. So then I know the corner was come off the edge of the blitz. So I probably saw the slit of protection like that. You know, that was a really like transfer over. But like we would always say like a couple of things.

One, do the things that take no talent, right? So like showing up one time, like working hard, a good attitude. You don't really realize until you're out of that world. like we did that every day because that's what the job required. And like when you see somebody give 100%, or you see somebody, rather, you see somebody give 99% when everybody else is giving 100, that stands out.

But then like when you get out of that world and get into the real world and you see like, that's not how like real life is or it's not like that like consistently for everyone, like that will make you stand out like over time. Right. So like coming into class, a good attitude, like willing to work hard, being on time, right? Like that's one thing that's like kind of stuck out to me like early on was like people would be late all the time

People would be like 30 minutes late 40 minutes late and then like leave like 10 minutes early But like it's stuff like it's like you're doing all the things that that's that's that didn't happen in Stoutlin's winning Yeah yeah yeah you would get fine like a thousand bucks like that was it being late like it wasn't even like a you think I should try that That thousand dollar fine well teachers would like lock the door man and like we'll kick you out like some of the operation professors Oh wow so like if class started a 10 15 one professor if it was they would give you a minute at grace. He came in a 1017, he was throwing you out. Wow. I love that. I respect that, man, because, like, you know, you're not here to play. And if he brought your phone out, he would just stop and stare at you. Like, what are you doing? And like, I mean, I get it because that's how,

you know, we were. But, you know, things like that where it takes no talent. Like, you got to do what you got to do and you got to be consistent. And then it was a phrase when Doug was there where it was like, hope is not a strategy. And so, like, if you're not putting the work hand, you're not putting the time in like, don't think like on the exam, right? Like, oh, I'm going to get an A. like oh he's gonna like carry me over like not like you got you know out of it what you put into it um and so yeah with stout i i understood how i learned uh the greatest thing about you know stout and there are so many great things about him is he's not a good coach he's a great teacher and what i mean but the difference is you can coach somebody hard but if you coach everyone the same

way not everybody learns the same way the first thing that's Stout does, he understand how you learn, right? So some people learn strictly like just by on the board. Some people learn by actually doing the stuff consistently. And so that's that was it for me. And so with Stout, man, like me and Lane would get together and like we would like line up trash cans and like as a defense. And like we would run through plays, different looks, different adjustments, like where we need to see it. So then when we got out there, we knew what we were doing because that's how we learned.

And so for me, you know, with you, it was like, yeah, you can kind of sit here and tell me like how to do this. and like, yeah, sounds good. I think I'm following, but like, until you're on the board in the hot seat, do you really know what you're doing? Right. And I try so hard to get this through to students. Like, it's like there are 70 of you in here. The only way this class can go is me doing stuff and you guys watching.

Like, you can't all do it at the same time. There's 70 people in here. So you have to make sure you can actually do the problems yourself. And unfortunately, not everybody listens, right? And then after the exam, they come back and they say, like, I understood everything you did in lecture. and then, you know, and then the exam went terribly. And it's like, well, did you do the problems yourself, right?

And so Brandon did an incredible job, I thought, of making sure that he could do the problem himself. And then, and if it didn't go right, he'd ask me like, you know, like, what did I do wrong? Do it again, right? And that's not something that everybody does. Yeah. I love that. We'll get into more of that in a minute. We got to hear from our friends at Olipop.

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along with us must be 21 or older please gamble responsibly if you were someone you know has a gambling problem and wants help call 1800 gambler so brandon you said that you know you know that nothing will compare to the juice from football but what is it about investment banking that you get sort of that juice from uh i think at a certain degree kind of the purely similar Right. So when I was at Goldman, man, it was like not me versus you. It's us versus them. So like in that team, you know, aspect. And even when we were working on deals together, you know, it was a team of, you know, analysts, me of associate VPMD partner like rolling all the way through. And like we had a singular focus. I think that's one thing that you learned from playing professional sports or just sports in general where it's like it's a single focus in a single direction. And everyone is moving in that direction. There's no one, you know, moving in another direction. Other otherwise like they wouldn't be on the team. And so I think us as a team moving in one direction, everyone

like, dude, they were machines man, like, I mean, I guess you have to right, to work six, seven days a week and 16, 17 hours, right? To grind and through. Sounds awesome. Dude, it was like training camp is the hardest part of the season, but like, I don't know, man. Like, that's where you find out

like, you know, who's the cream of the crop, who's on the rise, who's going to, you know, falter. And like, you know, what that looks like. right so I was just working together moving in one direction um you know competing with each other making each other you know better man iron sharpening iron man so I enjoyed it that's great you want to talk a little football yeah why not let's do this let's let's so we were talking in there and I'm curious one thing that came up throughout the draft season was draft the tackle and then move in the guard right and it's it's something that that we on this side of the interviews

typically say, yeah, you draft the tackle move in the guard. Is it as easy as it sounds or from your experience, are we overstating that? And to make it Eagle specific, Tyler Steen was a tackle in college. The Eagles moved him to guard. He was inconsistent last year. Is that something that takes time to adjust to? I think playing offensive line in general takes time to adjust to, right? Like you got, and I put myself in Tyler Steen's shoes, right?

You got four of the guys who you just met, you know, a year ago, right? Like who you really don't have any, you know, kind of camaraderie with. You don't know how everybody moves or thinks about the game on top of, you know, learn the calls. And you all kind of have to be choreographed, you know, together consistently. So, I mean, I think it's something where in order to be a good alignment, and I'm not saying that it can't be done because you see it, you know, I think it's more rare, but like a guy that you can just put in from college, like, out the game. who's just like you know dominant right away but playing office line takes time man like it's not

something where hey you just do this because there's too many different variables going on where you may have to change or protection um and obviously they're getting paid across from you right so like you got different blitzes to try to fool you and like you need to be exact consistently and so understanding the calls understanding like where your eyes need to be how you need to see it understanding how everybody else plays and how you fit into that it's just not something that happens overnight. You know, you got to be kind of battle tested, right? And so, you know, he got out there, got his feet wet, kind of got to see what the game is. But I've been between year one and year two, similar to me, like in the summer, you got to understand what you don't know. And then you got to

like go twice as hard in those areas, right? And so whatever he felt that he, you know, he didn't know, or he was struggling with or things he needed to, you know, needed to get better at, this is where the offseason comes in to really lock in and focus. And so for me, I never left the city that I played in when I was in Houston or here. I stayed here. I worked out here. And, you know, they got different rules.

And so I don't know what the rules are now. You're not going to get in trouble for. Yeah. I don't know anybody else in total. Like, if there was something in the playbook that I didn't know, like, dude, I would, because coaches are here. Like,

I would go in the office and be like, you just shout it into the void and hope that something. Or, you know, if there was, you know, an older player. you know like a Kelsey or something like that where they knew to playbook like the back of their hand man and like I wasn't quite getting it man like why don't you just get together right or like go to the practice facility like there's nothing that says like you know the starting five can't get out there and run through plays together right right like you got to take that on your own to you know elevate where you need to elevate where you need to get where you need to get and like that's how you go from you know average to good good to great and like I think that is something that as the game is moving forward to that I feel like people aren't focusing on just being good at football, right?

And I get it. There's a lot of distractions that come along with this game. But like for me, and I think that's why it worked out well for me to come to Philly. Like I've never been like a big like look at me guy or a huge social media guy. Like I just cared about being good at football. And like I feel like if you care about that, all the other shit outside of that that you want to come, like will come. But too many times I think people are focused on all the stuff around the game and what the game can kind of do for you instead of just. being good at the game.

So as an example of that, when you come to Philly, you are already a well-established player. You've earned this big contract. You're a very good player. How long did it take in Philly to feel like you were really fully on the same page with Lane and Jason?

Yeah, I'll be honest. I got my ass shoot after that first Cleveland fucking Browns game. I'll never get that. Really? Yeah, I was out there fucking up, man. I had like a decent game, but like it was my first game as an Eagle.

And like, you know, we went through training camp together, but like now it's very, another opponent live speed and like and so I remember uh after the gang style was like hey man like I don't know what the fuck you were doing out there man like like what's going on and like that's that's fair right like I've always been a person hey man if I'm fucking up I deserve an ass to it like that's what happens right like it's all good and so just like Dennis and so uh yeah like you know it took I don't know probably four to six

six games in. Because, you know, I was here obviously for OTAs, you know, training camp, and then, you know, some preseason games and, you know, going to the season. But after that, man, like, you know, we were on the same page. You know, I knew what Kelsey needed for me. I know what Lane needed for me and, like, vice versa. And I think that's what makes a good old line, man, like understanding like your role, man, like what you need to do for this team to be successful. Like, everybody can't be the conductor. You know, everybody can't do, you know, X, Y, and Z, like, understand what your role is, how you fit in that and, like, be the best in your role.

And so, like, you know, after four to six games, we were on the same page. And, you know, we did a lot of things together, man. And, you know, we went out to dinners together as an O line. You know, we would go down to the shore together as an old line. We spent so much time together. And there's some things on the field that, like, it's not just football, man. Like, there's many times where me and Lane and just looks at each other and, like, we were on the same page.

Like, not, you know, like, I guess trying to brag or anything like that. But, like, we spent so much time together. Like when we didn't have the time to talk, we could just communicate and figure it out. But also, like, that builds the trust in each other too, right? Like, I know, like, oh, like, maybe you have a bad player, bad game. I know, like, that's not you. I know how you'll figure it out. And I know, like, you'll figure it out in time.

So when you guys went out to dinner, did any losers come up to you and be like, hey, it's the starting online. Like, you know. Starting guards. Like, you know, how Philly is in the city event. Like, you know, the greatest fans in the world, man. So, like, you know, whether you're, you know, the star player or, you know, you're a practice squad guy really fans you know know who you are philly fans you know aren't shy to speak

and yeah i always felt like and this i was just saying earlier where i came to a city where like they cared about football like it's not about like flash like they care about like you working hard and you you know consistently going out there and giving giving your best nobody's perfect i think people understand that but like there are times where like hey maybe you should have put more time in or hey maybe you should have did this differently and like i was very fortunate that i came in a city that like I think we you know kind of clicked together so now and now there's a narrative that lane likes playing next to a bigger guard like brandon brooks and it probably had a lot to do though he likes playing next to brandon brooks what's like a lot to do with the fact that you were brandon

brooks as opposed to a bigger guard uh but but what's the advantage then of of being you know your size at guard as opposed to like whiz or what cam jurgens was last year well also i just realized i probably didn't answer your question while to tackle the guard as well right so uh it's just not as easy to transition. Going from tackle to guard, I think is just just not let me not say that. But like it's hard like going from guard to tackle. Like they have, each

have their pros and cons, right? So going from tackle to guard, the guys inside are bigger. They're on you a lot faster. And like, you don't have a ton of time to recover. Right? So like, and especially being taller they can get up under you and you got to bend lower.

My saying is not been done because there was a Denver Broncos guard. Orlando Franklin, who I believe was 6-7, 68, and he had a great career. He figured it out. But it's not as easy as it's just like, oh, just throw them inside, right? Because like some players are more finesse players where it's like, hey, I do well out here, but I do well out here because, you know, say 330, I'm athletic. But the guys across from me are, you know, 250, 260, but I can move around and match feet.

Where it's inside where it's like, hey, sometimes they're not matching feet, man. Sometimes they're just trying to run, you know, run through you. And, like, that may not be your forte. And so that may, you know, be a little different. But, you know, as far as Lane, you know, as far as, like, what's the difference in size and guards? I don't know, man, because I've seen little guys that play big and I've seen big guys play small, right? Like, one guard that comes from my mind with, like, Kevin Zeitler. I think Kevin Zeitler plays as a big guard, but he's smaller.

I think Kevin Zitler is, like, maybe 3, 15. But, like, shit, he's handling dudes out there. I mean, we were the same draft class. He's still, you know, doing his thing. I think he's with Detroit now, was with Baltimore. Yeah, but he's not going to Goldman. But still, like, you know, there's people that can play bigger than what they are. You know, I think the thing is just playing with Lane is, you know, you got to get to know Lane, man.

Like, you know, get to know them outside of, you know, just football, man. Like, you know, me and Lane had a really close bond for a long time, man. We were like brothers, man. We would always joke. We were like the two dudes from remember the Titans, man. And like, that's kind of like how we were. We would always like joke. Left side strong said.

Yeah, man, you know. So we would always, you know, be together. We'd always, you know, we'd see the game, you know, very similar. You know, he would know what I was thinking. And like, we would do all this, you know, not just in a meeting room, but, you know, on the field, you know, things like that. So, I mean, it's just like you got to get to know, like, everyone on the O line and like, you know, what they specialize at, where they need help. And, like, it has to be, like, vice versa. So I don't think it's a size thing, you know, at guard, but like you got to be able to gel.

You got to put that time in. From a size standpoint and along those lines of what everybody else around you needs, Kelsey has talked about this, how like because he is undersized and he's getting out into space, that puts a lot of pressure on the guards around him. What specific ways is that true as they prepare to have like Cam Jergens there now who's probably going to be used in a similar capacity? I don't want to speak out a term, but I know this is something Brandon, like talking about well yeah right also you know Kelsey's underside it has to make your job more difficult yeah 100% but but it is it is right like you got a you know know know what you're able to handle so other people can play to their strengths right and so one of Kelsey's strengths obviously was running in space like was just running in general like Kelsey had wheels dude he can

fucking run so I get it but there would be times where like you know maybe you get put in a bad position but like it's like hey man like can you handle it it's not about am i in a bad position it's like hey like i'm doing what's best you know it's in service of a team right yeah everyone up here and it's like you know the ball's gonna be gone so fast where it's like you got to make the best of the situation so kelsey can go out and do his thing and so like yeah like would there be times like where i'm in a bad position yeah but i'm sure there's times where Kelsey was in a bad position because i had to go do something and so you know i was just just part of the game man and so so how to like specifically how to what's this an example of how that might play out

uh it it would be like a shade and so like when you're running zone like zone is like you know obviously everybody's core grab like everybody's you know zone to the right zone into the left well the way we would do it is instead of like because usually the gar if you have a shade here and and here like as a gar right like hand here eye to the hip just in case the end came in and then you're getting into the backer for us it was like i don't want to say the call man because you don't know what defense is watching this but a lot of coordinators are watching the show right yeah but basically on a shader it can even be almost a zero I would have to block down okay and Kelsey pull around and the thing is like D lineman like if they see the center pull like

they're going to get to his hip so every time I'm like I barely barely get the guy because he's damn near zero and I can't step through Kelsey but I have to get Kelsey enough room where he can pull behind me so I can't step completely flat either okay and And it was just a situation where, like, you know, we were running the zone. Like, that's just how it was. And like, did it work every time? Probably not. But at the same time, like, did it work a lot of the time?

So you got to do what you got to do. Yeah, that's interesting. We have to talk one more time about our sponsors here as we move on. I think our friends at Miller Light, I know are watching as everybody's here. They want to suck one back with their friends. We got some beers on set. And Brandon was like, are those real? Yeah.

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All right, a couple super chats here, one from Rich Bobby, who just says, thank you for everything, Brandon Brooks. Rich appreciate you, thank you. Khalif wants to know, first time, long time, on behalf of the sickos, any body issue Photoshop anecdotes. I still get shit about this to this day about that. I will say it was all Lane Johnson's idea to do that. But so the first thing I didn't know about the body issue is like you are completely naked.

making it all the time right so like oh there's no like going from one shot to the other you're just no I mean you got robes on but like yeah you know you're I don't know now you're pretty comfortable man so like where we did it was in the parking lot to play your parking lot okay right and so like dude like I mean obviously you got the overpass right there yeah you hope cars just just a water through there but like dude you're like it causing so many accidents so you're like birthday suit bacon out there like it was like and you know Kelsey being the guy you is and Kelsey was just you know just hanging out I mean, how the time is like, you know, you kind of get comfortable, man. It's kind of like the locker room.

And like, hey, man, you know, you're out there having the best time. How big of a set? Like how many non-offensive linemen on the set? A lot. A lot. So you've got to be comfortable with everything that's going on. But it was a good time, man. I'm just trying to think of any.

I thought the whole thing itself was just funny, man, because like you think it's just a shot. And it's just, I don't know, like one. person taking like you got the whole crew man of yeah it was probably 20 or 30 people out there man okay we're just good for you know make it man yeah got to be careful well that's you know what that's why next week we're gonna have the body week Zach and uh Zach and I was gonna say you can propose that as a icebreaker at Goldman when you start you know no I think you'd be an HR for I'm probably not a good idea uh I know do you think I that I should read the Shea super chat what do you think I can't see it

He wants, there's a long time thread of conversation on this show, Brandon, about whether or not it's okay to sit to P. Ah, so you're going there. You don't have to answer that one if you don't want to. I'm a stand the P.I. Yeah. So. Well, of course, you two are like on every other topic. You're with Zach on this.

Yeah, exactly. It's more efficient that way. Wait. What's the argument against? Not every time. Just like if you're tired in the middle of the night, just to get an extra. rest kind of thing. Brandon, they like reprimand me.

See, Brandon's face right now looks exactly like Xx Space did when this first game was like. Go, go deeper into this. I don't know there's... Haven't you ever been like tired and kind of sleepy? You're too tired to stand? Thank you, Brandi, and you're basically asleep. Okay, forget.

Like, how did you get to the toilet? You walked there, right? This is more boasting than me. I feel like you should take it a load off, you know? Yeah, maybe you're looking at your phone. You're looking at your phone. I don't know. So I got to say when I acted like Brandon,

I was, I was, I was, treated as I was like ostracized for this idea that I say I stand brandon's here and you're like oh yeah this is this is totally unnatural you've already walked 10 steps thank you just stay standing for another it's so much less efficient yeah to sit down it's so much less efficient I think you're your your football guy bona fides continue to be true I feel like you probably like like use more energy to sit down and stand up than just stand exactly exactly you see this is a More educated, Goldman Sachs, like the best of the best, like Goldman Sachs. I got to hear this scenario of like, like, yeah, you're tired.

You want to, yeah. I mean, I know that you've walked there, but then you're like, you still do still have to stand. I don't know. Stand or do a squat, basically. Yeah, but relax. You see, you know, you know. We need Brandon here more often because there's so many arguments that could just be relitigated. Go ahead.

Like a logical person on set here. You do what you want to do. I'm not here to judge. Like, live your best life. You're that tired when you have to sit down? You can't just stay standing? Yeah, and also, if you're doing something on your phone, you can do it then, too, as opposed to... Maybe it's correlated to wanting to work 80-hour weeks and all of it.

To give you context, though, it was the goal. It went around at Super Bowl Media Day this year, asking players for their stand or sit. That was only one of the many questions. Yes, one of the many questions, yeah. And there were players who... Who said they saw? Yeah, cool. You know what?

Joe Tooney said he was down to sit sometimes. Oh, my God. Brandon's crossing Tudy off of his I respect this guy list he's been a great guard for a long time respect it but it's like man like you only want to stand

I just understand how can he be that tired where you don't want to stand like you want to do a squat instead like it's just it's like mind blinding me like I just I mean hey you know what it's like 52 the guard who sat

there's right there you go Yeah. What are like Sundays like for you these days? Are you sitting and watching Eagles games or is it just sort of like a thing that you're catching up on? Well, probably a little bit of both. I think my first year, it was kind of on in the background. I didn't probably really watch it like a ton of football. But then coming into this year, I watched a lot more, you know, of the games.

You know, and it's more to see how guys are doing, you know, see who's out there. Excuse me, maybe somebody, you know, got injured or something and I missed it. Um, but then like I've been trained to watch the O-Line for so long like, oh, I'll go watch the game like a game if that makes sense. Right. When the ball gets thrown or something and I'm like, yeah, I got to get back to the line to see like who's doing what. Right. And so, you know, I watched the watch the line and if I'm watching any other game, you know, watch it the same way. A lot of the calls are similar to, uh, or similar to it. You know, we did so I can see who's doing what. You can see who, you know, went out there and

fucked up or missed something. So like that's kind of how I've been trying to watch and probably how you know, always watch it. Even being from, you know, Wisconsin, I'll be, you know, Eagles fan, you know, the rest of my life, you know, wish them nothing but success. And, you know, like the moves they made, you know, in the offseason. So, you know, hopefully they get back to where they need to be this year. Can I want to, okay, just a quick follow up about the, you said some of the calls are similar when you're watching. I was wondering, like, you played just for Stout when you were here. but you played for a bunch of different offensive coordinators

and again there's a new offensive coordinator but stout's still here I'm curious how much of the run game design install you know actual way it plays out the way it marries to the play action etc how much of that is coming from stout and how much of it's coming from the offensive coordinator from your perspective well stout is the run game coordinator right and so like he is coordinating all of the run game stuff while also understanding I think what each player does well in putting them in, you know, the right matchups. I think a lot of times from an off of the coordinator standpoint,

you're thinking of matchups like outside and then in the backfield, but not also not all the time everything about matchups in the trenches. I think having Stout do the run game, he's not just looking at, you know, all the skill positions, but he's also looking at the offensive line to put, you know, us in the best, you know, position to make the right play. So I think it has like a lot of. I've heard people wonder out loud if Stout is one of the reasons that the Eagles, through a series of offensive coordinators, have been, have used motion less, have used under center less.

Do you think that's, that has anything to it, or do you think that's just more coming from the OCs? I think, I mean, that's why you hire the offense of quarter to write, like, to kind of, you know, give the final gameplay sheet. I think Stout probably has more input and more influence than, you know, any other offensive line coach in the elite. I mean, obviously look at his resume. But I do think the final call is probably between, you know, O.C. and the head coach. I'm going to test your memory here a bit, okay? They joke on the show. We joke on the show that I have a thing for quotes and maxims, life maxims.

And I keep a collection. Consistent in being persistent. I'm going to remember that one. I'm going to add that to it. Seven years ago, you told me something that a neighbor of yours when you were living in a center of apartment left under your note that he or she left under your door after you came public about anxiety do you recall what that note said because I actually think it would be helpful for you in your next adventure in life here.

I want to put me on the spot. I'm sorry. I can tell you this guy here. It was a great show until you did this. It was don't worry about being perfect. Our imperfections are what make us who we are. You recall that? I do that's something I definitely live by I think that's kind of goes into like the law of averages right where it's just like if you're eight out of ten player like some days every ten of ten

Don't glance at me anytime you say What I think I want to say generally any econ or stut term he's like making sure well you already you already took my class you got your grade one out of three so like I feel like the bar is high now man so like but no it's like the law of marriages right so yeah some days you're 10 out of 10 player and some days like you won't be even at eight out of ten it's just like as much as you want to be perfect as much as you want to be um i think it's perfect all the time like you know nobody's perfect and you got to be able to kind of like this might be a little too far out but like you gotta be able to dance in the rain man like it's not going to be perfect every time man like you got through bad times man you got to be able to keep your chin up and like you know don't let it deter you from continuing

continuing to move forward so there's one thing that you said that that has always stuck with me which was your process in between seasons was like I think you had said that like a week when the season's over you would give yourself time to really sit back and reflect on everything that had happened that year did you do that when your career was over and and have like the full reflection on everything that you had accomplished well I think that's why like I was so emotional like when I was announcing my retirement right it wasn't the fact that I was retiring man it was the fact that like over those 10 years like it all hits you like all the stuff you've been through all you know all the guys that you've been through it with all the coaches you've been through with all the ups and downs you've had in your career man like

it all hit me at one time and so to your point like yeah like maybe like a week or two I took to kind of reflect over you know what was going on but that's also partly why I started you know grass school right away it's just like you don't want to kind of get stuck in like replaying what happened and then like you're kind of in no man's land as far as what do I do next and so I wanted to make sure I had a plan to, you know, make sure I didn't get like kind of stuck in that, you know. I have a question for you. You talked about like the football conversations you guys would have when he was coming in for office hours. For you, how special was that time?

Unbelievable. I mean, honestly, like there are so many things that I have questions about when I watch film. And, you know, Brandon knows I watch film of every Eagles play. I take notes on every play. But I'm not trained at all. Like, it's completely a hobby for me that no one's ever really taught me. And so, you know, I've been lucky enough to be able to bug people like Fran Duffy and ask him, like, you know, what's going on on this play, that kind of thing. But to get to talk to Brandon about it was awesome.

Like, you know, because he would show me something about like, you know, which way the defensive tackle's leg was that you could tell which way who's going to rush from that. And I can't not see that anymore. You know, like every time that happens, I'm like this. And then like they'll run a play and I'll turn to Emily and I'll be like, oh, Brandon says this is called, whatever. I'm not allowed to say what it's called. but I asked during the ad break if I'm glad to say I'm not allowed to say it.

But I'm like it's called this and she'd be like yeah yeah I know you I know you like no Brandon Brooks or whatever and she's like

what are the starting guards? Yeah so it was yeah exactly what are the starting guards well the reason I said that was because like as with the TV copy like dude

you think we're not listening for like defensive calls like they're listening of course of the TV copy right so like any any advantage you can where the town of GAF is so small

like you're gonna do it right like whether it's like a podcast like he's looked and said the one word then it's like oh when i'm out here like i heard it i know what's gonna happen like stout text you and you feel like still part of yeah it sounds like what are you doing sorry to jose no no i was joking stouts watching this right now so i said brandon don't get that away yeah absolutely so i guess my last thing for you brandon is like when you get this job and and you go to work for gold me you're moving to new york right yeah so are we saying goodbye to philly and what has like this time in philly meant meant to you uh kind of ended on a nice emotional note for all the

Philly people. Yeah, so I'm a move to New York full time. Actually, probably in about a week. But Philly will always be home, man. I don't think I could have maximized my eight years better here.

I think that's probably right. I don't think anybody could argue with that. The Eagles and Penn. It's hard to beat that, right? But I don't know, man. Philly means everything to me, man. And the fans, you know, the city, the coaches, the players, you know, I'm forever grateful for my time here.

It really does, you know, mean everything. And I felt like, you know, I kind of got my starting Houston, but I became who I was when I came to Philly. And, you know, Philly is known to be a blue collar city where, you know, you work hard, you know, you give it your all consistently. And I thought that, you know, really fit me. over the course of my career and as I go into my next, you know, career, you know, Philly

holds you accountable, man. I couldn't ask to play in another city where they hold you accountable and, you know, they want to see you work hard and, you know, they want to see you win. And I think in sports, that's what it is about. And I think hard work and being consistent, gets you to winning consistently. And so being here, man, you know, it taught me toughness. It taught me how to, you know, go through trials and tribulations, man, and it taught me how to hold myself accountable when I do, you know, stumble or fall. Something doesn't go my way to, you know, get back up and keep going. So, you know, Philly always be home.

I'll always love Philly. And, you know, I'll definitely be back. It's not, you know, goodbye. It's just, you know, just a different transition in my career. but I'll definitely be back to Philly. I'll definitely stop back by and Philly will always be home. I'll always

be a Eagles fan, I'll always bleed green and try to represent the city to the best my ability so no matter where I go. If I can sneak one thing in on that topic there's a famous quote from Fred Shero the former Flyers coach in 1974 Game 6 says win today

we'll walk together forever and then you hear this expression when a team wins a Super Bowl he'll never have to buy a beer in the city again, right? What's it like, if you can tell the audience, what's it like being a Super Bowl champion in Philadelphia? Is that true that, like, that continues with you wherever you go when someone passes by you at park and says, that's the starting guard, you know?

Yes, but I think. You get bad when you have to actually pay for a beer? I don't think as players, we really understood how much a Super Bowl meant to the city. And what I mean by that it is it wasn't the Super Bowl win like it felt good and you see the confetti falling and like you know all that and that's great. But I think it really hit me how much it meant to the city and it was it was bigger than football the day of the parade. You saw a lot of people crying. You saw a lot of people, you know, spilling their families ashes out. and you see

you know especially older people like you know basically I could finally like you know die in peace seeing a Super Bowl like win and I always knew how important sports was to Philly from from this

and this was in 2016 when I first got here at Cleveland Browns game a fan came down and said I wasn't going to take my kids to Disney World when instead I can't to the Eagles guy I don't know if any other city you're going to hear something like that

and like that always stuck on my head how important sports, you know, are in Philly and how intertwined sports are, you know, with the city of Philly and fans, you know, worldwide. And I think that to me, you know, let me know that like, yeah, I play a game, but like, this is important. This is important to a lot of people. And so as I'm out here, you know, every snap and every game, like, I need to hold myself accountable and play as if I was some of the fans, you know, that, are in the stands, you know, seeing some of these things, man. So I think the Super Bowl, you know, was great, but I think coming back here and celebrating it with the fans,

you know, let us know how important, you know, it was for the city and how long the city had been, you know, waiting on a championship, man. And so I think that in itself let me know how special it was. Did you want to say something? No, no, that was beautiful. That was beautiful. I think that that guy telling you that on the Browns game,

that's probably why you were distracted before stat was MF and you. that game. If he had just waited until after the game, to tell you that, maybe it worked out better. Brandon, we wish you the best of luck. We thank you so much for taking the time.

This was a lot of fun. Same here. Thanks for however you are. Open invitation to come back whenever you want. He's going to be working 16 hours a day in New York. It's going to be tough. I don't know.

But, yes, I mean, it is open. There are 24 hours in a day. Let's be honest. 16. Come on. There you go. Yeah, this is, I think, we have found a new Berman brother. Brandon has added

added to the list. It's uncanny. It's unbelievable. Yeah, it's great. All right. Well, that'll do it for this very fun episode of the P.HLY Eagles podcast. Thanks to everybody for watching live

and listening after the fact. Thanks to the professor and Brandon Brooks for coming in today and spending some time. We will be back Monday at noon. The show keeps rolling. So we will talk to you then. Have a good weekend, everybody. And as always, we love you.

You know, Thank you.