PHLY Philadelphia Eagles Podcast - PHLY Eagles Podcast | OTAs begin for the Philadelphia Eagles as Saquon Barkley, other newcomers suit up for first time.

Episode Date: May 20, 2024

The full Eagles roster is out on the practice field for the first time this spring as Organized Team Activities begin for an Eagles team that has seen significant offseason turnover. As Saquon Barkley, Devin White, Quinyon Mitchell and Cooper DeJean prepare for their “debuts” in Eagles green, so too will Vic Fangio and Kellen Moore take their positions on the sideline for the first time as new coordinators. The great Les Bowen joins Zach Berman and Bo Wulf to discuss his memories of OTAs of yore, what actually matters this time of year and his other thoughts on the state of the team at the moment. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

episode of the P.H.O.I. Eagles podcast. Bo Wolf, Zach Berman, joined in the middle by our friend Les Bowen. Les. How you doing? I'm great, Bo. Happy beginning of OTA season to you and yours. Yeah, it's a festive season for sure. Yeah, Zach, how did you celebrate this weekend? How are you ringing in the OTA New Year? Preparing for a week of shows? Preparing for OTAs. Yeah, I'm happy they're here. So when do you get to go out of, you know, you guys get to go down there? When do you get to do that? Sounds like Wednesday. So they are practicing today, Wednesday and Thursday. They're required to open practice one a week for the media. And it sounds like it's going to be Wednesday. Once per week. So we will get one next week as well. And then after that is

minicamp. Yeah. And we get every day of mandatory minicamp. And it's the first mandatory minicamp under Nixiriani this season. I remember the day when we used to go down there every day. Me too. And locker room was open every day. Yes. And it actually, this was a mixed blessing for me. because as a beatwriter, you know you're going to be, there's only so many stories, right? Most years. I mean, some years there's a zillion stories, but most years there's really not.

And you're writing stuff and you're thinking, yeah, two months from now, it'll be warmer, and I'll be writing this story again. But the themes emerge. As Joni Mitchell once said, you don't know what you've got until it's gone. And now that we don't have the everyday access, It's very, you know, it wasn't so bad to have that, I guess.

Yeah, I mean, not to take the trip down memory lane here. Let's go there. But I always appreciated this time of year conversing with the players because it was low pressure for them. True. You know, even during training camp, they say it's laid back, but training camp's not like spring training. There's a lot of pressure. And there's a lot of pressure on the guys. They're really tired at the end of the sessions.

OTAs are laid back by nature. And this time of year, you're able to have more meaningful conversations with the players. You can have things that you store away for later in the year. I distinctly remember. That would require planning. Fair. Or a steel trap of a memory. Yeah, yeah.

But there was actually one time when the inquirer needed me to do for a Father's Day section, Father's Day advice or like father advice from different players. And I spoke to Malcolm Jenkins. and then actually the next day, my wife went into labor. So the last piece of advice about being a father, I got from Malcolm Jenkins. And what was the advice? It was actually similar to what Les said,

which is you don't know what you don't know, right? And that was kind of the extent. There was a lot more to it. I don't want to speak out of line. I don't want to miss quote Malcolm. But it was basically like you don't know what you don't know until you're in that spot. And Zach, for the people who haven't been following the journey of OTA access over the past decade plus, when did things start to change?

As far as, like, not being in the locker room? Yeah. Well, I think most things shifted post-COVID in general. When now there's a few different. Were they doing locker room access in OTAs before COVID with Doug? Yes, they were with Doug. And then 2000, yes, 2019, because I vividly remember Zach Ertz, his wife was playing in the World Cup that summer. And speaking to Zach about that at his locker, that was actually the last piece that I wrote for The Inquirer.

And then... Didn't the Eagles have like a bottom of the roster undrafted for agent who was from France, like a wide receiver or something like that? He spoke French. I remember talking about that World Cup. That could be wrong. It's news to me. Look that one up. Look it up.

But so then COVID, things changed quite a bit post-COVID. We weren't in there for two years. And I should also say that coincided with Nick Siriani taking over. Not that Nick is limiting the access, but Nick, as I said, has never had a mandatory minicamp. Right. So 2020, there was nothing, obviously. That was the last year, Doug. 2012, Nick made a deal with the players.

If they came for two weeks for voluntary Saturday. and then that would be it. 2002, they didn't have the mandatory minicamp last year, the same thing. So there's been very limited spring activity under Nick Siriani, and it's just kind of become, I don't want to say institutionalized, but accepted that they're not going to open the doors in a big way for you to come and watch and talk. And, of course, Nick's first year, that deal made a lot of sense

because typically a lot of veterans don't go to the optional stuff. especially older veterans, it's really not for them. But Nick wanted to get off on the right foot, so he wanted everybody there from the beginning, and he struck that deal. Now, whether it made as much sense in subsequent years, I'm not sure. Last year you had the whole Super Bowl hangover kind of,

that's always a difficult situation, and I understood everything he did, but I think you could see ultimately that maybe, you know, The foundation wasn't what it needed to be. And it'll be interesting to see how this spring is different. I think that's one of my main interests in all this is how is this going to be different from what Nick has done these previous three years. From a, you know, like Vic Fangio influence standpoint?

Well, there's that, certainly. I mean, that was my main takeaway from Vic Fangio is he's not going to be, oh, let's give everybody a day off. You know, he's going to want work. But just from, I think Nick understands, you know, I think Nick understands that this is, you need to get this back on track now. It's not, oh, we just went to the Super Bowl and we lost by three points and everything's wonderful and let's just get everybody healthy into the season. That's not the situation. I'm actually curious to, in addition to that, and not to get ahead of ourselves, but how that carries over in the training camp, if those practices are going to be more intense, if they're going to have more days. because you are right. There is this notable change this time of year, and I think it's easy for the Eagles to say, well, the season ended sooner.

I don't anticipate. I don't believe that's the reason. I think this is part of Nick troubleshooting. What went wrong last year? I think this is part of introducing new schemes. It was the reason why I asked Nick about this at the owner's meetings, because I was especially curious, are you going to approach it differently? Like, it was well known around the league that the Eagles were light. They were the lightest team these past few years. years in terms of spring workouts. And I think we in the media can overstate spring workouts, and we'll get to that in terms of what we're looking. Like, I can explain what the rules are, but I see there's interest in, well, how is this player going to look against this player? It's, it's not as if there's like one on, you know, the O-line, D-line are. Right. There's no pads. Yeah, there's no pads. But this is a chance to at least play football, a variation of it, to have an introduction to the schemes, and I think that will be beneficial come the summer. Anthony Mahungu.

I remember Anthony Mahangu. Good job. That's what we were talking about. That outstanding memory of Bo Wolf. Well, I look it up. You can always count on you remembering the French players, right? And the guy I didn't remember, I had to look it up. But you recall there being a French player.

Well, yeah, of course, because we talked to him about the Erds having to go to France. Did you speak in English or French? I think I did a, like, Eagles, I so Terica thing with him about speaking. speaking French. But did you speak in French? Yes, I believe so. Okay. Yeah. I took my, I took my French lessons. Adam Cher. And did you use the, hairy armpits. Did you use the, the pronounced accent? Yeah. Did that come out? I tried to get it as dirty as possible, yeah. Oh, sure. You got to put the sauce on it. Otherwise, he just, it doesn't sound arrest.

Did he find that in Deere or did he find that alarming? Yeah, he wanted to kiss me. What do you Wouldn't be the first person, right? No, certainly not. All right, Zach. When I think of OTAs, like, what are you looking for on the field stuff from, like, players? It's obviously not the same as training camp

because, like, you guys were talking about, they're not wearing pads. To me, it is more, like, things that could throw up, like, a minor red flag than positives. And it's specifically with, like, the, you know, the Lorenzo Booker types is the framing,

like, guys who are supposed to be these dynamic athletes in space need to look special and athletic in space. But of course Lorenzo Booker did in OTAs. He looked wonderful. And still wasn't very good, right? But if he hadn't, then that would be terrible. And like Donnell Pumfrey, I think this is a good example of. Like, when a guy is that small and you're expecting him to be super dynamic, he better look really dynamic in this setting.

So to me, like Ania Smith is a player who would be under the microscope this spring. If I can kind of, because we have the benefit of having you here, I don't want to say test your memory, but indulge your memory here. Donnell Pumfrey, as Beau mentioned, I've heard stories of him. Like when he came in, the coaching staff was like, this is the fourth round running back? Has there been a guy you've watched out there? And you were like, oh, I don't know if this is going to work. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Several over the years. The first one was Jerome McDougal. You know, everybody now, you know, narratives, get simplified over the years. And now it's all well. He got shot, so he wasn't a great player. Jerome McDougal was an undersized defensive end with a very odd body shape. A lot of his weight was in his lower body. And he kind of had like, he just wasn't real muscular, wasn't, like, pass rushers often are like Josh Sweat, lean, long. Jerome McDougal was, he looked like a guard, You know, and he really didn't do much off the bat.

And they kept saying, well, he's so quick. His first step is so amazing. And teammates would say this. But you never saw that manifest itself. I never did. I don't want to be unfair to the guy. Maybe he would have been a really good player if he hadn't gotten shot the night before train camp in, what was it, 04?

05? I think he was 0.4, right? Okay. Whichever you. Yeah. But I didn't think he was ever. I think they were, they had Hugh Douglas at the time who also had a very odd body shape, you know, who was not a long lean past rusher. And I think they just weren't.

They just figured, oh, this guy, you know, he'll be all right. You know, he was at Miami. He was a great player at Miami. And also forgotten in the Jerome McDougal profile. He was an old. 25-year-old rookie. Yes. You're exactly right.

And I remember thinking that at the time, you know, this guy. And he looked older than that. You know, I mean, he really did. You know, it was like, it's pulling that 21 Jump Street. Yeah, you know, it was odd. But actually, you had asked me in a text about my most, my memories from O, T, and my most vivid memory is from the first one I ever went to in 2002. Okay.

And I was coming in from having covered hockey where there's nothing like this. It's a very different beat in that offseason is like a couple months, you know, from the end of the playoffs and the draft. until they go to training camp. And you don't see these guys unless you play in their charity golf tournament or something. You know, training camp is when you see the players the first time. So OTAs, to me, the idea you were going to be watching these guys

four or five months before the season started was very odd. So I go out there the first day, and that was when we were just, we were on the field, we were, you know, I was like maybe as far away as from here to that monitor from the running backs doing a drill. And Karell Buckhalter crumples, and grabs his knee and starts yelling. And Deuce Staley runs over and it's like motioning trainers and stuff. And I'm like, wow, this is, how about that?

And he had torn his ACL and was out for the year. You know, but very few OTAs are like that, it turns out. But that was my first day of OTAs. And I was, good Lord. I believe Paul Warlow's season ending injury happened in the spring. It did. That's correct. It's one of the ones that I remember from.

we've all become sort of like a nerd to the, like the injuries in practice and football, but like just the sort of the cravenness of it where it's like this guy's who's just fighting to keep his career alive, like his season and maybe his career is over. And like 90 seconds later, it's all right, everybody back to business. Here we go. And, you know, in training camp, it'll be like, you just move the line of scrapage to 20 yards so that everybody can keep going while this guy's writhing in pain. Like it's just kind of a sometimes bit of an inhuman.

situation. And that was indoors as well. That was an indoors one. You're right. I remember that now. The warlord was indoors. My most vivid OTA memory if we're doing this and I suppose this would be on brand but I think both you would nod your head accordingly. It was Chip Kelly's first practice. Yeah, everybody get in the playlist.

Running around? Well, just at that point my only exposure to NFL practices I'd been to a lot of Andy Reid practices. I covered Tom Coughlin with the Giants. And then in college I did I covered college football when Frank Beamer and Al Groh.

But these were not your quote-unquote new age coaches, right? And so just seeing the way Chip conducted practice. With the music. And the speed and you try to keep notes of each drill. And that's when I stopped like keeping play-by-play notes because everything was happening so fast. If you look down the right, you miss something. Actually on the 2510 podcast with

the Sean Jackson and LaShawn McCoy two weeks ago when they were talking about everything about Chip, as Bo and I discussed. One of the points they mentioned was the first week of OTAs, they didn't have this debt chart. And it was like Jeremy McQuin was in there with, I don't know if Will Murphy was on the team at the time. But just you're really throwing Will Murphy on the bus. They were going, it didn't matter what spot you were on the depth chart. So you had Dennis Dixon throwing the ball to the Sean Jackson. Jackson with James Casey at tight end. And then the next drill, you had Jeremy Macklin with Chris Polk at running back, Michael Vic, a quarterback. There was no rhyme or reason to it. So you couldn't decipher the depth chart. If you look down, you would miss a play.

And he would have, I'm speaking to you guys, but I should speak to the audience as well, because I imagine most fans. They can hear you. No, but unless they went to Lehigh, like they're not familiar with an NFL practice. At a lot of NFL practices, there's just the group that's on the field and then everyone else is around watching. Chip Kelly's practices. Free ring circus. Yes.

So each field would have different drills going on. So if you watched one field, you missed everything that was going on on all the other ones. Because he did not want people standing around. So it was. That was one of those good changes. True. But it was almost revolutionary. Like watching a practice like that, it's your first OTA practice.

They got music playing. I remember, I admittedly, I'm not a music guy. But there was this one song that I always associate with Chip Kelly's practice. And it's, I don't want to sing it here. I wonder if it's the same one that comes to mind for me. Who is, I'm afraid he might have passed away. The Swedish house music. Avici, yes.

Wake me up when it, yeah, they would play that over and over again. and I remember I'd be driving to that point, Comcast Sportsnet across the street, and I would just have that song playing in my head, wake me up, yeah, so. For me, it's Starships, the Nicki Minaj song. They played that one a lot. Oh, okay.

I just remember that was when I found out about and downloaded the Shazam app. Yes, that was the big Shazam app. I never had any idea what the hell was playing. Yes. I think they also played bombs over Baghdad when it was time for the punter. to go.

Oh, is that right? Always like a, and then there was like another dropping bomb song. It was like they needed that one to be on brand. Interesting. Interesting. And they would have Greg D. which would scream out when I said Greg D. Greg DiGroes, the head of equipment, but on, but he would kind of direct people on the field.

And he would scream, Riverside, Riverside. Yeah. I didn't know what that meant. And that was the drill goes to. The other side. Yeah. I remember being very confused about that. My first training camp in 2009.

Okay. Yeah. Okay. Before we keep going, let's talk about our sponsors. Bet Parks, guys, because a big betting weekend over the weekend had several game sevens. You know the PGA Championship. Maybe you were involved on any of that. And if you want to keep it going, well, the Eastern and Western Conference finals are coming up and you can get in the zone with a Bet Parks Sportsbook app. The money is in the moments. Win big with all-day action when your first $10 bet and earn $125. in sports bonus bets. You play for fun. You love to win. You bet. Download the app and play along with us. Must be 21 or older.

Please gamble responsibly. If you or someone you know has a gambling problem and wants help, call 1-800 gambler. Bet Parks, baby. And let me tell you about mortgage CS because this is the time of year when people are trying to buy homes. Absolutely. Considering buying homes.

And it's right now, I don't think it's, It's controversial to say that it's more of a seller's market than it is a buyer's market right now. There's, you know, I heard an anecdote over the weekend of an open house when there was an offer like right there on the spot at the open house, which means you need to have your mortgage ready if you're going to make an offer. Rates are slightly higher, yes, but home prices are still rising. A mortgage CS can help you get into a home before they go higher and also refinance to save money when rates drop. Who doesn't love that? the same house with a lower payment. Values are expected to keep going up, so don't put off buying just because rates are slightly elevated. Refinancing with Mortgage CS is straightforward. When rates

drop, Mortgage CS will monitor your refinance opportunities and ensure you save money responsibly. You don't want to pay a ton of fees when you refinance, and you'll never get that at Mortgage CS. In the end, you'll be so happy that you texted Ben, the CEO of Mortgage CS at 267-391-7-4-25. There's a reason people win more with mortgage CS. So call or text spend now at 267, 391, 7425, and see for yourself. You can also go to www.morgatc.com slash p.gloi to check them out or view their 350 plus perfect five-star ratings by searching Mortgage CS right now. Did you watch that, DeShon Jackson, LeShaw McCle? You know, I did not.

I've read all about it. I just felt like I got the gist of it pretty well. I understood their careers were greatly affected by what happened to them under Chip Kelly. I think they both would have loved to have spent their whole careers here. And I think they would be, you know, Sean McCoy is the Eagles' all-time leading rusher, but he would have put that mark where nobody else could ever find it had he stayed here. I think he especially would have been here his whole career probably. Yeah. And Deshaun never got a chance to really do much in the playoffs after leaving here.

And I think he would have, they both would have loved to have been on that 2017 team. And we can talk about whether that would have worked out. I had no idea. I'm not much for that kind of hypothetical stuff. But it dramatically affected the course of both careers. DeShan's reputation because of the circumstances. And, you know, I understand I don't really, the whole Chip Kelly racist thing actually came up. I remember if you remember the first time this brought was brought up was when Trey Thomas left the coaching staff.

And Trey said something along those lines. I don't know if it was on a radio show or what. I think it was cultural insensitivity more than blatant racism. I think, you know, Kenyon Barner has spoken up. on behalf of Chip. I know Chip was very close to Josh Huff, you know, when they were in college. I don't really, I don't think it's as cut and dried as, you know, Chip Kelly was a racist. I do think he was a guy with enormous blind spots.

Right. And a lot of things he was uncomfortable with. And he was from New Hampshire and spent most of his career around a bunch of New England guys. and I don't think he had a lot of chops in trying to deal with people who were very different from him. Or interest in doing it, right? Yes. There's a difference between like malevolence and just being incurious. Being blind, right?

And not being interested in dealing with things that you're not familiar with. And I mean, you know, if enough people in that locker room had that experience, you know, you can't just discount it, right? That's exactly right. Yes, I agree. But it was a fascinating time. It was a really fascinating time. I still, much like with Carson Wentz, I still would love to sit down with Chip Kelly

and talk about, you know, you're a smart man. Why could you not adjust, you know, that last year? Why couldn't you figure out how to make things work? You know, what was the, what was holding you back from, because his now it all seems like you know the dry pages of history

but it didn't have to end like that you know I mean the team didn't hit rock bottom or anything it wasn't like they were a two-win you know he could have they were a decent team as Doug certainly proved right off the bat you know

I just don't understand what happened really entirely but yeah I think the prevailing lesson there is we, I'm saying we, and not the three of us, but let's say media fans, yeah, can sometimes forget that these are people working with people, right? And human dynamics is such an important part of any workplace, but in particular, I shouldn't say in particular football, but football among them. And I think that in that last year, the interpersonal dynamics were what cost the Chip Kelly era to go down because there wasn't enough built equity in the locker

room when things went bad and there wasn't enough built equity certainly in the front office and in the building when things went bad and that's why if you act a certain way on your way up then on your way down there's there's not going to be many people reaching out their hands for you if they feel they were wrong rightfully or wrongly but like I mean sometimes it could be a matter of misinterpretation. Sometimes it could just, but ultimately, like Lapo said, if enough people feel that way,

when things are going bad, there aren't going to be as many people who have your back. And if you recall the locker room that week, when Chip got dismissed, there weren't really people who had his back in there. There were a few. There were a few. Yes. Who had done very well under Chip,

gotten a new deal. And I'm not impugning Brent when I said, but Brent felt like, you know, that it could have worked with Chip. Yeah. And even guys like Kelsey were kind of like, yeah, you know, I mean, they weren't like jumping on his carcass and pounding it, but there were a lot who were.

And I've been accused on the show of being a Chip defender because I, like most things, I think things are nuanced and it's not black and white. Certainly no pun intended there. But I think it's a matter of like I said this after the, that podcast came out that I don't And I should say you wrote an outstanding piece during the Super Bowl run where you spoke to Chip. There was, I don't know if the Eagles win that 2017 Super Bowl without Chip's time here. Because there were things that Chip brought into the building that the Eagles needed. There were people that Chip brought into the building that the Eagles needed.

That whole nutrition thing was, you know, it's still there. Exactly. As far as I know, I haven't been in the locker room lately, but, you know, there's still the, there's a whole wing of people that weren't there before Chip showed up. Yeah. Yeah, the way people train, the way people eat, the way people, this is, the chip was the first one to really introduce us to the NFL and analysis standard in the NFL. I said this when we spoke about it. Jeff Stoutland is here because Chip Kelly wanted him here.

Yes. Right? There are other people in the building, and there are enough people, too, who, there are enough good, smart, credible people who stand by Chip. But as, as Bo mentioned, there was also enough examples of people who felt wronged or slighted. And you made some horrible personnel decisions. I mean, there's just no way around. A chip the GM failed chip the coach. I think chip the coach also failed chip the coach.

Okay. They kept, what I remember about that last year is all those losses where they kept trying to run the same four or five plays. And the opposition would just be on the other side of the line of scrimmage as the ball was being snapped, you know, because nobody was fooled. Right. And that reinforced to me a lesson that I started learning long ago when I was coached. ring hockey, which is that coaching isn't about schemes and plays. It's, I mean, it kind of is, but it's more about the essence of coaching is getting people to believe in what you're asking them to do.

If you can do that, then you can run anything, really, and be somewhat successful. But if you can't do that, you can have the most innovative scheme in the history of the world, and it doesn't matter. It just doesn't matter. College was so different from the NFL for CHIP because teams weren't able to study at that level when he was playing against them in college. Players didn't have the time to really dissect things.

Opponents didn't, you know, about his offense. By the time he got to his third year in the NFL, you know, opposing players were like laughing at this. Right. And think about how demoralizing that must have been for the offensive line to have their plays being called out while they're about to run them. Of course you're not going to feel like you're rowing in the right direction. I don't mean to make this a 2015.

Well, let's say we're here. One thing that I have heard in just asking around and talking to people is that if you recall, the first preseason game that year was against Baltimore. I don't recall. Well, you'll recall when I say this. Terrell sucks. No, his third year. San Bradford's year.

The year everything went bad. And Terrell Suggs pummeled San Bradford to the ground on the first drive. It was a read-option play, right? Where San Bradford was not going to... Oh, okay. He was not going to run.

Now I remember. But it was... You know, Suggs is... On that play, Suggs' whole thing was to go hit Bradford. Whether he had the ball or not. Exactly. And like the Eagles were livid on the sidelines about it.

And the league said that, no, he's considered eligible to hit because there's a chance that he could be a runner on that play. If it's a fake, we're not going to penalize a player for hitting a guy without the ball. Exactly. And I heard that changed the entire offense because Bradford was like, I'm not running this out. Like, I'm not going to close myself every time. That was a huge sea change. And it seemed to be aimed right at him, too. It wasn't...

Sure. You know, it was interesting. It's interesting how the league adjusts to... KYP, man. But even when... When Nick Foles or Mark Sanchez were the quarterbacks, like even after Michael Vick, they carried it out.

They, you know, they kept you honest on the backside. And if you weren't honest... If you can't keep them honest on the backside, now you're shaking your head, you might think that's simplistic, but I literally know there were people in the room who said that changed everything that year. Yeah, but their offense still...

It wasn't good. the year before it wasn't as good the year before either it kept the blocking you like thing that I heard was the blocking scheme that they I can't I'm a terrible ex and O guy even now but they had kind of a slant scheme and people figured out how to get him behind it and it was like you're not facing the right way to block the guy you know when he makes that adjustment you're in the wrong spot you know And that's a real rudimentary explanation of it. You mentioned Carson Wentz in relation to this,

like the guys you want to sit down to and get to the bottom of what happened. And I think there is an interesting, in my mind, the way I think of it, contrast between Carson Wentz and Chip Kelly, these guys who both had these unbelievable first impressions were fantastic and then fell off the face of the earth. To me, Chip was the same the whole time. He did not change. And that was part of his problem,

is that he never evolved and never adjusted. And, you know, whether that's the interpersonal stuff or the schematic stuff, I think, like you said before, I actually think chip the GM is a bit of a red herring and let's chip the coach off the hook. Whereas Carson was the opposite. Carson, I believe, was as good as we saw. Yeah.

And then totally changed. And something snapped in him. And I don't know if it's all the injuries, you know, or the concussions. But there was also a refusal to adjust. on Carson? Absolutely a refusal to adjust. And a hubris about, you know, with which he approached the game, I think, after 2018, at least.

But I don't think, like, that doesn't change the fact that, you know, Chip in 2014, that offense and Carson in 2017, those things were very real. But I feel like, I feel like Carson's was more of a something snapped here, whereas Chip, the problem was it just, he never changed. Yeah. When I think of Carson in 2017, and I think I said. this, I don't think I said it on this show, so it's brand- Say it on the show, yes.

I don't think of Carson like taking the ball, dropping back, and throwing in rhythm. I think of him dropping back, a rusher coming, him stiff-arming the guy and spinning off of him, and then heaving it 40 yards down field. Right. And for whatever reason... Stuff that would not have been sustainable. But... For whatever reason, that disappeared.

That whole thing was gone within a few years. He just couldn't do that anymore. didn't want to do it. We got hurt a couple times, you know, and that might have changed his whole outlook on those confrontations. So let's spin, go ahead. Well, just to add to what I said previously about the human dynamics, I think human dynamics plays a role in the Carson thing as well, because I think after 2017, the full shadow

was a big deal with him. It was a huge deal. And I know for a fact that that's what the eagle. think, that's what management thinks happened more than anything else, is that and I can almost, I can, I can empathize with that. I mean, what a bizarre,

I thought the whole time we were covering that. We were both there for the inquir. Wins and Foles on the podium with the confetti going down and Wintz standing there, you know, patting Nick. This has to be the strangest

situation, interpersonally, and how does Wend's handle this? How does it work itself out? And we saw, and it worked itself out disastrously. I remember being struck in the post-game locker room at the Super Bowl by how reserved Carson was. And this is not a bad thing against him. That's a very difficult thing to go through.

But you would have expected a little bit more joy. Yeah. And it was much more like I wasn't here for this. I wasn't part of this. I'm sort of standing in the background. But to kind of carry my thought a step further, 2019 was the best year he had post. Now, there's only three years there.

But that's because, well, Foles wasn't there, and everything was about Carson. And if you recall, when Carson carried them to the playoffs late that year. With no weapons. With no weapons. Big Bob Davis and Viante Burnett. Yeah, everything was about Carson. The backup quarterback there, Josh McCown,

was there specifically for Carson. And then I think when they drafted Jaywin Hertz, that affected Carson because now it's the same thing as like Nick Foles. It's like, and there needs to be a certain strength of mind, I suppose. But that goes back to the human dynamics that I think when Nick was there,

and then I think when Jayhwin was there, there was just this, it's like, for lack of a better analogy, like an only child, and then you add another child in there and the attention gets diverting. So do you think that if the front office believed that Nick was a big part of his backtracking, like we talked about it the night that they drafted Jalen Hertz, right? Like they're inviting this dynamic back again.

They knew what they were doing. They did. Yeah, I think they just thought if he's the guy we think he is, he can handle it or something. Right. The thing I think about when I was surprised that teammates got his down on Carson. so quickly as they did. Maybe this relates to what you were saying about building up goodwill. Sure.

But I would have understood, had I been his teammate, I would have understood him having mixed feelings about this. Do you remember, does anybody remember, Wilma McNabb and before my time? No, when Cobb was drafted? No, no. Well, Cobb, but before that, Jeff Garcia, and the team won a playoff game with Jeff Garcia, And Wilma McNabb said something on her blog or web page or something about mixed feelings, and people went nuts.

You know, she didn't, she felt like Donovan was persecuted here anyway. Now the white quarterback comes in and wins a playoff game, and, you know, now what's going to happen? And I could totally see that. It wasn't very wise to say that on the Internet, but, you know, I got where she was coming from. there and the idea that teammates were like how dare he be you know a little bit unsettled when somebody how would how would they have felt in that situation you know i i don't know i just i was surprised i really was let me spin this forward to jalen because you were talking about you know how carson's evolution as a player went from like you know coming out of those those pass rushes

and being able to make these dynamic plays we saw a little bit of that sapped from jalen hertz last year from an injury standpoint, we think. What are your, like, what are your expectations for the kind of player Jalen Hertz will be this year? Well, that's, well, that's the key to everything. I mean, we talk about all these other things about the corners and the safeties and who's going to be the right guard. Totally. But if Jalen Hertz is the Jalen Hertz of 2022, the Eagles will be a very good team. I mean, they might not win the Super Bowl, but they'll be a very, very good team. And if he isn't, I'm not sure it really matters. Who's the wrong? right guard.

Yeah. You know, I don't know. This Kellyn Moore thing is a very interesting way to approach it. I think from everything we can see, Jalen is embracing this and, you know, trying to get back on track. But are the things he did last year? And I didn't think he was always as bad last year as people, you know, that everything gets condensed to a very bottom line thing.

But I thought he played some wonderful games last year, but nonetheless, I just think he has to be, he has to evolve quite a bit. He has to get back to throw in the middle of the field. He has to get back to, you know, that business of just sitting down when you see a running play not looking like it's going to develop. No, don't do that. You're not 80 years old. You don't need to, you know, do any of you think that's a good way to approach, you know, when you get to the edge and there's nothing there, just sit down on the field? Well, it's good or bad we could argue about from a longevity standpoint.

It was notable because it was different, right? It was different, and it also lost two or three yards every time where at least you could have gotten back to the line of scrimmage, you know. Right. I mean, yeah, I mean, there were times when he did not have the explosiveness that he had the, the year before. Go ahead, Zach. I concur with this. They need Jaylen to be the franchise quarterback. And he was that for much of last season, but there were too many times where he turned the ball over.

Sometimes you can put the offense on hit a bit, right? Or I should say more than a bit. The offense grew stale to use Nick Siriani's term. That said, and I think Jalen would say this too. He's responsible for everything that happens in that offense. He's the starting quarterback. And when he plays exceptional, they'll be an exceptional team. When he plays really good, they'll be a really good team.

And when he's inconsistent, they'll be an inconsistent team. That's very well said, yes. And I like the way he approached when you guys spoke to him recently. He, and I'm going to paraphrase it, I don't remember his exact words, but he talked about his role as his demeanor and what he needs to project. and I thought he had a very good sense of that because I don't want him to try to be fake. I don't want him running around, you know, like,

hey, da, boys, you know, patting everybody on the butt and all like, because that's not who he is. But he needs to be, he needs to think about what he's projecting in times of frustration. And it's okay to be angry. it's okay to be you know to make a point to somebody about hey we need to do this but it's not okay to just sort of sit around looking like somebody shot your dog you know and i think he kind of gets that yeah i think what jumps out to me personality wise because he can be psychoanalyzed whether from a leadership perspective from from from demeanor but i think the best thing he is going from there is that from all indications and again i'm not in the meeting room with him but from what i understand he wants to be coached, right? He's, he's really driven to be better. He's, he's not someone who believes that, that the way I do it is the only way to do it. And I think that if,

if he can be appropriately coached and appropriately challenged, then he can continue progressing. I think the problem comes when everything is catered to you, and this is going to be incumbent upon him. And now, I was critical of him last year at times when I thought he should have had the backs of his coach a little more. He should have had the back end Siriani a little bit more. And I said that and I stand by that. But from what I understand he really does want to he's open to new ideas. When he

says like being a sponge, he wants to be that sponge. He wants to grow. One problem I think about it. I'm going to put you guys on the spot here a little bit. Jalen and Nick, we saw Jalen's reactions a few times to Nick's histrionics

on the sideline. Do you think there's a part of Jalen that kind of thinks Nick Siriani is a Goober? Yes. Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, we've talked about this. Their personalities do not line up entirely to me. And I think Goober is a good way to put it.

Like, I think there are times when Jalen probably thinks that Nick is acting like a clown. Yeah. Now, the bottom line is, like what Zach was saying, is, is that work? Can you get me better? Yeah. Like, is he capable of getting me better? And last season he was not. Like the scheme was not giving him answers,

whether that's on Brian Johnson, you know, to what degree. But, you know, there was Nick's offense. I think that's part of, you know, Fisier is too strong of a word, but I think some cracks in the foundation of their relationship. We'll see how that plays out this year. I'm actually, what you said, Zach, made my ears perk up, and you can talk about this as well, but about, like, Jalen not being closed off to, like, new ways of doing things.

I don't know that that tracks with me, This is a guy who has himself a very small circle, right, and is very protective of the image that he's putting out. And, like, I think that there is very much to Jalen, like, one of one, this is my way of doing things, don't you think? Not, well, no, I agree with that. In terms of his approach, but I do think he's motivated to get better. Yeah, absolutely. And so that's, so that's an example. There was an example.

Greg Bishop did an outstanding story in Sports Illustrated on jail. And there was an anecdote, and I hope I'm not screwing it up because I'm kind of speaking off the top of my head. But when he was out in California and he was kind of being coached to do a certain thing, and he said, you have to let me do this. So I can get it in my muscle memory. Yeah. And I think that- Solving the problems on the Blackboard, what Dan is.

I think he's, we use the term intentional. He's very intentional about it. So it is true that he does have a very high opinion of himself. but I also think he's not stuck in his ways. He's not complacent. I totally agree with that. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think if you can apply that

growth mindset to use that term in an appropriate way, you're going to continue to grow. And what do you think of their relationship? Well, I think it'd be hypocritical of me to say that you can't expect Jalen to be someone he's not and then expect Nick to be someone and he's not too. Because I think

I think they're two different types of personalities. That doesn't doesn't mean that there can't be symbiosis there. Well, I think Nick needs to grow up a little bit, too. I mean, I don't want to be somebody who's not, but you don't need to get into it with fans. Okay. You can just not do that. I mean, that's not, I don't think that's changing your personality necessarily.

That's just, you know, be an NFL coach who isn't, you know. Well, the fact that even Jeffrey Lurie at the owner's meetings was willing to say, that that was the thing that Nick needs to get better at. I mean, that tells you that that's a real thing in the organization. But as far as the Jaywin-Nick dynamic, I think J-Wen needs to feel confident that Nick is putting everything in place to make him better and to make him succeed. And I think that's very understandable.

If J-Ewan feels as if whether it's the offense, whether it's the play calling, whether it's the leadership, if it's not pushing him along to make him succeed, then that's where that fissure comes. Right. I think Nick can do whatever he wants to do as long as Jay-Lan feels like we are progressing. Yes. That's a good point. I think that's well said.

And if you want to do everything to make sure that your gut health is progressing, well, Ollipop is here for you because Ollipop is the world's first functional soda with a classic soda taste and the benefits of plant-based fiber, prebiotics, and other botanical ingredients to support gut health. Ollipop is a new kind of soda with only two to five grams of sugar and nine grams of four. fiber per can. Alipop is available online and available in almost 30,000 retailers nationwide, including the most recent launch at all Wawa stores. A perfect match. You've got a delicious, healthy drink meeting a convenience store, both adored by a cult following and the two flavors in Wawa, the two most popular olipop flavors, of course, classic root beer and straw, berry

vanilla. Two out of three Americans say they suffer from digestive issues, and 95% of Americans don't get the daily recommended amount of fiber. Oli-pop is tackling both of these issues with a drink that tastes just like soda with all kinds of delicious nostalgic flavors like vintage cola, classic root beer, orange squeeze, classic grape, strawberry vanilla, vanilla, cream soda, and sherry cola. So if you want to get in on the Oli-Pop action, use the code P-H-L-O-Y-20 for 20% off your next Oli-Pop order,

the discount only applies to one-time orders and not to subscription orders. Pop is sold online at drinkollipop.com.com. That's D-R-I-N-K-O-I-P-O-P-P-com or on Amazon, and it's available in almost 30,000 retailers nationwide, including Wawa, Target, Sprouts, Wegman's, ShopRite, and Go-Puff, Oli-Pop. Boom. On Friday, on Friday after our show with Andy McCullough, which we did remote, I went downstairs, put it on the grill, and put some good stakes on the grill, put two stakes on that I got in my mail or not in my mailbox on my doorstep even better.

That would be messy. From Butcher Box. Because Butcher Box, you can get incredible deals on premium cuts from Butcher Box. Deals that's good are hard to come by at the grocery store. Trust me, I know I've gone to a grocery store looking for these types of deals. I can't get them like this.

Butcher Box has high-quality meat and seafood that you can trust. Also, free-range organic chicken, pork-raised, crate-free, and it's humanely raised, no antibiotics or added hormones. It's delivered right to your doorstep. shipping always and they have customized box plans. I'm sorry, customized box plans, not bought plans. That would be odd. The convenience of Butcher Box is incredible because like I said, you open the door and it's right there, you put it in your freezer, it's ready to go. Fewer trips to the

grocery store, always prepared with me in the freezer. The value is terrific. The price and savings you can apply to getting all the Montreal steak seasoning you need to put on that steak. Butcher Box is offering our listeners an amazing, offer where new users can get free meat plus $20 off your first box. Join today using our link butcherbox.com slash pHLY and use code PHLY to receive this exclusive offer today before time runs out. So now two steaks on the grill. Does this mean the little Bermans get like gruel or chicken nuggets?

The kids are, oh yeah, the chicken nuggets or pasta. Okay. Oh, they don't get any of the steak? No, I'm not using the fine butcher box steak on my kids. They're not eating steak. steak. The steak's for MOMI and me. Yeah. Not even a little bit, not even a couple bites for the reed man. He's not a steak guy. Really? You asked him about this? About the steak? He's fine. He likes. He's feeding him gruel. This will be the analyst in 20 years. He's going to be hearing about this.

He likes chicken nuggets. He likes pot. Yeah. I make him grow, I made him a really good grilled cheese yesterday. How did you make that grilled cheese? Two pieces of bread and cheese. No butter That's it Yeah I put butter on the pan And the toaster I have like a foreman grill That I use

Ah the foreman grill Throwback Is it? Is it? I think so When I was in college That's what we were using Yeah

How long ago were you in college 20 years ago Okay So thereby A throwback Okay Okay Okay

Let's I want to get your Take on There's the Somebody was asking about You know Nick has gone After this year And the

Yeah The Bill Belichick stuff is out there in the zeitgeist, you know, and it's true that if they lose a couple games, you know, everybody's going to be talking about the specter of Belichick. How do you feel like this thing plays out? I wish I knew. I do think they have to have a good year.

They have to maybe win a playoff game. I mean, they could be 15 and 2 and lose a playoff game on some fluke, and everything would be fine. Sure, they could get super injured and still overperform their expectations. I think maybe they have to win a playoff game in a normal season, you know, if they're 11 and 6 or 12 and 5 or something. Win a playoff game and I think Nick's fine. If they don't, they're going to have to look at things. Now, Belichick, I was surprised that he didn't get a job, this cycle.

I know Jeffrey Lurie's. What a brave thing for him to do to go to the Tom Brady Roast. So brave. Yeah. The whole, you know, Jeffrey Lurie, New England, we all think about that. There's no doubt that Belichick is held in high regard, but his age, I don't see the Eagles hiring a, what will he be, like, 73 or so by next year? I just don't, I don't see that as a Jeffrey Lurie-type move unless he thinks everything is here. All the ingredients are set.

all we need is a genius to win another Super Bowl, but I just can't get there. First of all, Belichick's recent career, I think Lurie's got to be smart enough to look at that too. The guy hasn't had no answers for several years now, and his answers got progressively worse. I don't think that's going to happen, but I can't pretend to be.

But in terms of the noise of it and Nick having to do it. Oh, yeah, there'll be a lot of noise about it. There's no doubt about that. Do you think that bothers, Nick? Hmm. I don't know. I doubt it. I think he's, one of the strengths of his personality, I think, is that he's not real sensitive, you know.

But we haven't seen him in that situation, so I don't know. You see, I think what's interesting about the Belichick thing is this is not like, you know, WIP, and I say this lovingly. Like, this isn't just filling airtime on a May afternoon or something like that where, you know, do you want. No, do you want Bill Belichick to replace Nixirian, that kind of thing? No, this is coming from Seth Wicker Sham, Don Van Nata, right? This is coming from the people who the owners are reading, right? The people who the GMs are reading. and when it's at that level

it's not just fans or media in Philly talking about it but when it's at the league level that this is discussed when Bill Belchek's on a roast and he makes a joke about Philadelphia that it's in the NFL's like Keist then I always say there's there's the things that the fans consume and then there's the things that like the front office consumes and that's why

sometimes when you know Howie or Jeffrey are saying something. They're saying something to the other 31 buildings as opposed to like all the fans sometimes. And I think this is something that clearly is in the NFL zeitgeist. It is. But let me ask you guys this. So Howie Roseman's in a pretty strong position right now, right? Yeah.

Howie is the guy that brought in Chip Kelly in 2013 and nearly ended his own career inadvertently by doing that. Do you think Howie's going to Yeah, I think he does not want Bill Belichick here? Absolutely. And do you think Howie lacks the clout to just tell Jeffrey no, this is no. So I disagree with you guys on this. Like, Howie Roseman's resume since

2016 puts him in rare company. I think Howie's very much interested in legacy and interested in a second Super Bowl is a significant accomplishment for GM, especially if it's done with different coaches and different quarterbacks. I don't think the Eagles would be amenable.

Well, first off, I think Nick Sirian is going to remain the head coach because I think they're going to be good. I think Siriana's going to stay. So I should preface that. But for the sake of this conversation... I think that's the most likely outcome. I don't think the Eagles are going to overhaul a front office or get rid of all these people that will accommodate Bill Belichick.

But I think if there was a situation where the Eagles didn't win this year, and whether Talley and Jeffrey think that all the ingredients are in place, they just need a different voice, I think it would be that. I would think you drive our car. You know, we're not buying you a new car, you drive our car. I don't know if that fits Bill Belichick at all. Exactly. I think Bill Belichick's chasing Legacy too.

But I think that that's part of why. I actually think that the Belichick moment with Eagles has passed. I think it was last off season when it would have made sense. It's actually like you look at who they ended up hiring. like the defensive coordinator who was the obvious best guy available, the offensive coordinator who was the obvious plug-and-play best guy available, Bill Belichick was that option at head coach. And so if they were talking themselves at the end of last season into the reason that we all collapsed

is because we have this great roster, but the coaching staff could not get it together. We're just going to bring in the most experienced plug-and-play coaches. Belichick would be that guy. To your point, it would require some significant overhaul, probably. I think, you know, they're supposedly Belichick and Roseman have a good relationship. Things could have started off nicely. I think eventually they would have butted heads in some capacity, and we would have seen how that played out.

As Wicker Shamm and Venata wrote about, like, there's a real question about because he's so old. You don't know how long he wants to be here. Is it worth overhauling the way that we do things for a guy who's only going to be here two or three years? Probably not. And that's why, like, if things don't go well this year and Nick Siriani is out, I think it is more of a refresh, longer-term plan. The one thing that I will say is to the

Jalen Hertz, Nick Siriani, like dynamic we were talking about. I'll tell you what, like a guy who does think the way that Jalen Hertz does, if you're just trying to get him a guy who thinks like him, that is Bill Belichick. Like, that is the match of guys who do approach things the same way, I think. But I just want to point this out about Howley,

because it's kind of like sometimes, you know, if you're at a job and someone comes in when they're 25, and then when they're 35, like, you still view them as the 25-year-old. When Howie, when Chip and Howie had the kerfuffle, if you will, Howie had never won a postseason game. In his, at that point, four years as GM, they got worse each year than they went 10 and 6 under Chip, but they had never won a post-season game. Like I, since 2016, he's twice won an executive of the year.

They've won a Super Bowl. They've been to another Super Bowl. I think the perception of Howie around the last. league and certainly, yeah, among some of these, I don't want to say tried and, because these tried and true NFL guys, but among the Bill Belichick's of the world, I imagine, has evolved quite a bit in the 10 years since then. I agree, but you're talking about legacy. So if Bill Belichick comes here and wins a Super Bowl, do you think that helps Howie's legacy?

What do you think that's going to be about in the national? narrative. Yeah, I mean, I think it does, but it probably, you know, nationally is more of a Belichick thing. But of course, it helps Howie's resume. If you put the wrong here, you're like, it's not the same thing. You're going to say something. But I agree. It's not like it's not Howie's baby necessarily, right? He would have to share the credit on that. But I think the point of what less is saying about, you know, in a theoretical Howie Belichick marriage is not like Belichick's going to come in and kick Howie to the curb. It's that there is a long history. of head coach marriages with Howie Roseman

turning a little bit contentious over the course of time. And if that were to happen, there is almost nobody in the league who might win that fight in Jeffrey Lurie's eyes, but Bill Belichick is one who has the gravitas to win that. Well, I'll say something else. This is a little bit of a tangent, but do you think Howie is maybe Nick Siriani's biggest booster?

That was part of the reporting of the lead-up to their big meeting, right? is that Howie is the one on the phone with people he knows around the league trying to help Phil Nick Stead. Well, here's how I look at it. The coaches Howie has had before Nick were older than him and of a different NFL generation. Yeah, absolutely. You know, and they had a certain way of looking at Howie. Whereas Nick, I think, sees Howie as his bro, you know. And Nick also has no interest in taking over personnel.

personnel influence. I think they are very, I think they're pretty tight. I would agree with that. You know, and I think that's a big part of why Nick is still here, and I think Howie will be reluctant to part with Nick. Well, there was that scene in that game that they played on Philadelphia Eagles.com last week that Bo and I talked about on Friday show, but when Howie said you should have, you know, coach GM combinations, or they brought up coach GM combinations, and Howie said that Nick,

you can't name the GMs in the league, and Nick's like, yeah, you're right. you know, because to Bo's point, that's not what, that's not what Nick wants to do. Like, Nick's not this, this power-hungry coach. Nick wants to be the coach of the football team, right? And how he wants to be in charge of the football team. Like how he doesn't want to call plays on third down, but he wants to be responsible for the players on the roster. He wants to help with the coaching staff together. He wants to be in charge of the football team.

And so there is a really good symbiotic relationship between the two right now. Well said. All right, Les, anything else you want to get off your chest? Ah, geez. Before we get going. Well, OTAs, you know, what would I be looking at if I were out there? One of the things I'd want to see, I was thinking about that this morning was, is Isaiah Rogers, you know, after a year away from football. That's my list, actually.

How does he move? How does he, you know, does he look like a guy who's been gone for a year? That's one of those positions that you can learn a little bit of something by sending out there. And he could be a very big wild card in that. You know, you're talking about rookies and you're just going to plug in rookies and have them play. And, you know, we'll see. That's a good one. We'll see.

Well, that's a good tease, Les, because on tomorrow's show at 3.30 tomorrow afternoon, Zach and I will go through all of the little things that we're looking forward to watch when we do get to watch practice on Wednesday. So we're going to have to add Isaiah Rogers to that list. Yeah, three things I just want to add to this. I appreciate that because make sure you're subscribing to all p.hly.com. less is providing us outstanding written content. We'll continue to have more content. I'm going to have something up later this afternoon.

And when I'm watching for in OTAs, which we'll discuss on tomorrow's show. Isaiah Rogers is going to be added to the list. We'll get more into OTAs tomorrow, but just to kind of give a refresher, because you're going to hear this. You're going to see it on social media. That today is the first session. No pads are allowed except protective knee and elbow pads. Helmets are permitted. No live contact.

They're allowed to have seven on seven, nine on seven, and eleven on eleven drills. but no live contact can take place. And then just one other Eagles note from over the weekend because we didn't get to this at the top, but it's worth mentioning here. There was the Eagles Altism Challenge this past weekend. They had nearly 6,000 participants, so fans like those watching the show

who were biking, running, and walking, along with people in the organization, you might have seen footage. And they raised more than 8.1 million to date in 2020. New record, right? A new record, yep. And 30 million since it started, in 2018. This is

Les remembers times when there was like the Eagles Youth Partnership or there was different, you know, and you do too. I don't mean, I was just because Les is here. The Eagles kind of charitable arm, if you will, is now entirely almost Eagles autism challenge and they've raised a lot

of money and awareness for the cause. Well said. Yes. All right. That'll do it for this episode of the P. H.L.Y. Eagles podcast. Les, thank you for joining us. Well, it was great be here. Wonderful to have you

and talk shop. We hope to have you back again soon. We'll talk to you tomorrow at 3.30, Bowenzac, coming at you. That'll do it for this episode. And as always, we love you.